presence at TAC has gone way too far when appears in a thesis title Getting Mercincavage I see one decent paper on Belgian Lesbian Studies anywhere on this How can this be a legitimate They Were Both Naked and Were Not The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual OH SNAP Wild how many of these are circling around political wondered if this is a trend over the last decade or Richard Delahide David Brian Dragoo do you think there are more or less students writing on political philosophy topics these days than in the Or has it remained roughly The next step will be a thesis on usury and the I think if Tim and the Toonie make an appearance in a thesis it will be time for a scouring of the There are always at least that number of theological interests in Peregrine Just like there are is an absurdly high percentage of grads who go into the religious Sometimes quality is more important than volume I always like seeing the of the thesis titles for each You can always tell which topics caused the most after class thought I said in the but not even sure that I need There may be theology majors in a precious few institutions who read as much but still be up As to however be willing to bet that almost no major anywhere reads as much and as  What do you mean by in And I guess I should clarify my was a Syllabus Thomas Aquinas College The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of Thomas Aquinas They are not all of equal Some are regarded as while others serve as sources of opinions that either lead students to the truth or make the truth more evident by opposition Those are specified Theology students not all Christendom which is the distinction that was being made I do  not when they get out of the One But partly my job which is why I am regarded as a Link to the An Investigation of the Role of History in the Understanding and Development of Political Favorite What I love most about all the titles is how wide sweeping they I just let that one above sink But this is precisely what is needed in the fractured world in which we at least at the They will never deliver on their promise in these grandiose titles but letting them try without dying the death of a thousand footnotes is good So long as they then get out and get particular and keep learning and realize they actually solve the You Want to Share an Apartment in The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to But what do you mean by in the context of the fullness of the Supplementary by An Examination of the Relationship Between Relaxed Admissions Standards at Small Catholic Colleges and the Desire to Count Hours of Aquinas Read During College and Then Argue About Who Has Read All and I complain about it all the but in the larger picture these places do pretty well at placing their top It drops off pretty quickly after but I think the complaints you bring up here I have shared for are a bit unfair when you zoom that was quite a I love the righteous the studious the frequent whimsy of the topics Aaron the failure to launch business is also a matter of social Those who got out quickly are already out and But hard for any real liberal arts grads to crack the nut of the world out and for good Basically the top students at these institutions are as good as but it drops off quickly after And not pretend that those who are quick to launch at other places are always happy ten years down the when they often come crashing back to But our circles deserve all the ridicule you give I just like to knock you guys down a I tease because I I love the Pasadena title what are you doing with all this knowledge you think you a janitor right I feel alienated from the modern Aaron You Want to Share an Apartment in The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to wins the satire prize thus More entries just a simple statement of fact the place has no so everyone takes the same and thus they require more Thomas and Aristotle than everyone But if you want to present evidence by combing through the curriculum that theology majors somewhere else the same amount of text be my not a claim of ultimate Just a cool aspect of About On the Disproportion Between the Promise of Alluring TAC Thesis Titles and the Often Page Term Papers Which Follow I wish I could burn all the copies of my not just the I sent out with a very ambitious but produced the most boring paper ever at all just pedantic acceptable at that age too I felt like it was a failure of nerve and a retreat into scholastic nonsense at the But I was only If I had it to do all over I would be solidly instead of Noble Just Because I Read Pages of Aristotle Mean I Have Anything New to Say About I think what I say in the status for all the serious and problems of the which I am overly fond of speaking about is its trump All other aspects it puts the student in direct contact with loads of Thomas and To that is its intellectual and that for which I am especially since being in direct contact with both those two is a sine qua non for much wanted our students to go out and change the We realize that the world was Santa Marcus Berquist Nasty even for Peregrin But the former President of one of the Johns Colleges told me that he was envious of TAC grads for the way in which they were far more active in society than SJC True that tripping over my roared the your meaning behind says This comment thread is almost as good as reading Take it Nothing is almost as good as reading I say Time for some As long as another tenor to cover for good with No tried to be patient with you several but it actually seems pretty ludicrous to me for you to go on about TACers talking themselves hiding behind and being How about this for an example of caring excessively about savagely attacking TAC and most everyone associated with it on close to every FB thread ever seen you participate And now that gone and looked up just what one might mean by I see that this use of language to talk about least half of taught is a fairly incredible I think the place is I think it has some serious especially as it loses the leadership of its founders and attempts to continue to grow and sort itself Can we just relax and talk somewhat playfully and joyfully about this various and ramshackle attempt that all of us broken human beings those of us who are united by the Catholic from whatever are making to reach our eternal at Christendom they teach people to greet the brethren with a holy a criterion in hand and the spleen to apply the guy misremembering my a Google collins commencement thomas then do a page search on his speech for to the teaching We have a Looks like there is a secret conspiracy among the students to care about the because we already know infallibly that the College Is this all part of some East Coast vs West Coast Thomist Better stop before someone gets hurt in a never knew that one had to include every aspect of the Catholic Church in a commencement address to be considered a faithful I envy Peregrine is Christendom College Undergraduate Reading List ENGL Literature of Western Civilization IThe IliadThe Odyssey Poetics Oedipus the Electra The Oresteia A Manual for Writers of Term and Dissertations The Elements of Style A Guide to Literature Old Norse beings described as trolls dwell in isolated or live together in small family and are rarely helpful to human peruse the reading and stand firm by your and the most hated words in the English language go through the text line by At I was once assigned a reading from a volume Post Marxists So kiss all you Thomist I heard that at Christendom you receive communion unless you swear on a Bible wrapped in the Confederate flag that Abraham Lincoln was an evil I remember now Liam coming up to me cackling before giving his guess going to purposefully not mention the word just because I and I want to offend the I then asked who the backers He gave me sideways glances before darting up onto the I heard at you give a commencement speech without using times Does anyone know where Bonaventure can find a good grinder for his Flute On the Cowardly Hiding of Teachings Behind the Writing of I find this all but I need to log off and work on finding a house to share with other guys who still found a job with their try to spend ten or twenty years verifying that really Catholic while at Where are you looking Liam  about to start classes at WSU in aerospace That brain Sound about like what a graduate full of hubris would Liam Collins usually the top question when hiring at most did your college read Thomas I have been in love with TAC for many thrilled they still put out this list of great senior The Habits of Highly Effective Internet Trolls Brain on Digital a quick test to find out if an Internet Read the statement below and see if you agree with If you just might have what it takes to play a troll on the more beautiful and pure a thing the more satisfying it is to Researchers at strong positive associations emerged among online commenting trolling and troll pointing to a common construct underlying the Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of Trolls just want to have fun In the past few the science of Internet trollology has made some Last for we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment Internet trolls are frequently have a polarizing effect on leading to rather than deeper understanding of scientific but nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls Science Internet Trolls Really Are and Sadistic In the past few the science of Internet trollology has made some Last for we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment Internet trolls are frequently have a polarizing effect on leading to don you think a little love the thanks for Just glanced through all away slowly I think rather all things I would be open to looking at any evidence that some other institution requires their even within a to study more than TAC does re the two authors in Certainly no other institution requires as much study of the two of ALL their students as TAC But this really a big deal except for the This fact is not directly related to or but I do think it is one of the aspects of as flawed as it that is worth noting and It is a wonderful thing in this day and age to put students in direct contact with that much Aristotle and Thomas I never claimed of But I am close to claiming you may suffer from a trolling illness of some Have you sought help for your obsessive fixation with The best Catholic thinkers come from Just ask Elliot Milco I I went and I have no idea who gives the or what is I even remember who gave Does it keep you up at night wondering how to down those arrogant TAC Do you get tired of beating the sad And Sex Week will enter this convo in sex week I heard Elliot Milco thinks that William Buckley is the greatest Catholic thinker of our so maybe you are Kevin  see what you did you absolutely OOOOOOOZe charity I think parents should send their children to where they will learn humility and I think they should send them to where Magisterium they can learn magisterium how to think magisterium critically but still be magisterium faithful to the teaching authority of the Church But maybe TAC does produce the biggest jerks in all of bwahahahaha I I keed I joke with you I am a jerk TAC produced me QED I think if you just go and read the original post you might be enlightened as to claims made as in this claims not your definition of Sacred And how can you claim it teach the I fear I made have fallen for what Matthew was trying to warn I immediately regret trying to start a regular Peregrine you have made me defend my alma mater which is not something I am in the habit of and for I thank The status is kinda for your for my had a nice over the top ring to This entirely serious If it was entirely I would have some serious But that should be The of simply stands as true until you put some evidence where your mouth Many people read the senior thesis titles and say things like I wish I was reading and studying this The titles are one of the selling points of And so is the way in which it puts so much Aristotle and Thomas right in front of student can I call you I like Scott Are you on the Psh whatever you guys are like amateurs at pretentiousness well the entire East Coast has us to the mannerism born An investigation of unity and I am a rational If you had read your Thomas you would know that an conjoined to not I know you do it on Are you sure not on the Pater welcome to the REAL best FB thread  your My lord what a huge comment that really only makes serious sense to members of the My goodness what an attractive MY day I love the habit of publishing the senior Congrats to the class of Funny My title was edited for the Andrews leave a gal Beckwith Three Wyoming Catholic College can anyone tell me the percentage of TAC alumni that enter the religious Must be pretty low since it entirely neglects the Does anyone also know the number of conversions that take place during the time at  you can think what you want about and we all know the place nothing but to hear Dr MacArthur and Mr Berquist described as Though I of being a TAC grad so arrogant I see how arrogant all the other alum We may be totally but at least we can recognize satire when we see I really like it how all the people who hold up Christendom as superior to TAC on these Facebook threads have about as much tact as Attila the Attila the I went to TAC so I have zero knowledge of history not quite seen him mentioned in Perhaps some fictional bad guy like Darth What I just understand is the point of that whole last Andrews You say like a as if it were a bad Pretty sure never heard the founders say that they thought what they had done was In fact I had heard some regrets and changes and Were they proud with what they had Does that mean they thought it was the perfect and the climax of all not doing your Alma reputation any favors Being a I learned the important like how to spell which alcoholic beverages to how to get back into the dorms after willing to grant that and Neumayr were incredibly not sure that TAC did deliver to me on or even a lot of what I took it to be And I think it is possible there to come away confused about what is Catholicism and what is pagan and where the two But it was and is a wonderful full of prayerful who love Jesus I learned valuable things struggled with real questions and I am grateful to the founders and to everyone else who has made it to And I just see any reason for all of who do share the the allegiance to belief that Christ was God and that his as contained in both Scripture and will guide us to to be anything but How to get back into dorms after LIFE Soul face I thank you for these too long and pointless to get involved at least gives a glimpse of people with whom I will not be interacting with in the future And I get consolation from sorry that had this So am TAC is not of course Nor is it for Nor is it the best way for each individual to be But it is the best school for many of And it certainly is not inferior to any in its The insinuation that somehow it is or weak on the faith is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard levelled against I originally wrote but I see a productive discussion speaking as a grad I want to say that I think TAC is a fantastic which has produced some really wonderful people the say the same for WCC or for in some rare I have met TACers who are not so but in those I would blame their own personal choices rather than their teachers or the as I sincerely hope that nobody thinks ill of my own alma maters simply because of my own personal Ignore the and keep up the good in humility and I remember jake thesis was called Angels Move the but when they posted the defense it said instead of It was a either Am I the only one who reads these every year and thinks that a good number of them are just a little over the I God bless TAC and all who dwell but come It is hard to read a lot of these with a straight I still think TAC is the best college but the thesis titles are so for starting to read the comments Part of the fun was making silly titles kind of regretting being so critical of TAC thesis titles after reading all these I feel like just been through a war and I just want some So amend my statement above to say that I understand why TAC thesis titles can sound so weighty and abstract stuff we wrestle with Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter and easier to come up with names for papers you write no offense meant to the class of or any other I had the hardest time coming up with a title I but I spend too much time on that problem because my thesis itself was very unsatisfactory so who gives a crap about he I think I ended up with Virtue of What do We Call Love of God I still wince thinking about how badly I botched that other institutions deal with much more concrete subject Ludicrous titles for papers are a plague of all just thinking about my recent microbiology PhD dissertation at Carnegie There was nothing whimsical or wistful or lilting or or punny in her not even sure it was technically but it sounded quite sciency and Take a gander at some humanities dissertation titles just take my word for it that they are either straightforwardly pedantic and jargony in a silly or just plain Bonaventure while I retain some small admiration for your sheer stubbornness in the cry of your comments have now plunged clearly into bare and do your position no I realize that this is the internet and all but I would wager that your Christian vocabulary trollish behavior on this thread tend to engender a strong sense of disgust in the average At the very when you throw out phrases will pray for my brother in just rip a line and say that I do not think it means what you think it I just popped back in after spending a few hours on the planet What a comment If anyone considering attending TAC or Christendom stumbles across this pretty sure Steubenville can expect an You guys are that actually is how steubenville gets all its applicants thought Steubenville was the only one of these three where people started speaking in if drawn Michael Grumbine out of the you you have stepped over the glad I go to Katie mine was quite edited as Reading this thread was the most fun had in a long Just finished teaching my first day of classes this This comment thread was perfect Friday fodder for a gin and everyone with a special shout out to Peregrine and still chuckling Today being the Solemnity of the Assumption and I give thanks to God for my Blessed who gave me divine but also for my earthly mother who gave me natural and for my mother in the in the life of the Perhaps I shall write a treatise in the spirit of St Louis de Monfort on Devotion to So for example I might great souls filled with grace and zeal will be oppose the enemies of God who are raging on all They will be exceptionally devoted to the and illumined by her With one hand they will give overthrowing and crushing and Thomists of a more lax With the other hand they will build a stronghold of true namely By word and example they will draw all men to a true devotion to her and though this will make many This seems to have been foretold by Psalm Lord will reign in Jacob and all the ends of the They will be converted towards evening and they will be as hungry as dogs and they will go around the city to find something to This city around which men will roam at the end of the world seeking true Aristotelianism and the appeasement of the hunger they have for Thomism of the strict observance is Thomas Aquinas which is called City of Except of course I would never actually say anything like Peregrine stood by himself and I thank you that I am not like other even like this TAC Does anyone have a recording of the report in which Dirk Kennedy or Michael D Byrne or someone called up the Christendom admissions I think Holy Mother the Church might not want your thanks for your I still get this incomplete presentation of the faith Church Mass a confession before and after each daily Eucharist League of Mary evening daily a Jesuit Dominican on campus at the same Again not to mention the religious that have come out of TAC wise and just even respected around the globe And all those things are the organized Faith formation trying to be It just shows your I believe this is still going just commenting so I can get What does it mean to instruct Sacred Theology in Andrews you do not have the authority to make such arrogant remarks which are not Self awareness is your So practically speaking what does that look Not A partial so does that mean all of the divine revelations of Christ through the Let me preface this by saying that I think Christendom is a good school and if I had children I would by no means argue them out of attending there if they wanted to guys have a much better But if we are discussing mistaken founding how do you defend the Christendom open discouragement of and Protestant I am curious because that policy seems to me to be mistaken in the Faith perfecting from being disillusioned to think that that was always the emphasis I also thought what made us not go crazy and all become depressed sophomore year with Augustine and that and the exercise of Faith through the Sacraments I am also curious as to whether Sacred Theology in its as you have described it something which actually I think emphasis on natural philosophy is just which has its own It prepares TACers better than some other schools to engage with others on certain and it provides a good foundation for further study in The Christendom emphasis on Church history also has its own benefits and prepares them better than TACers to engage with others on mistaken notions they might jave on Church  I am very glad to hear when I went to my admissions interview in I was informed that they were only looking for Catholic The conversation did seem a little strange to it was the last straw in my decision not to even despite the very tempting do you realize that you are like someone giving a book review of a book they And that someone who has read the book can tell you read what these threads with you are always again with the who the hell is that I use my REAL so I would appreciate the consideration to SPELL it correctly I think perfecting is the correct way to view the TAC but rather illuminating and supporting let him in on our gnosis will you just spell it I invite you to take a good look at past years of TAC thesis titles besides and you will see that there are a number of students who have written on this exact I can think of at least one in my own class and I am sure there have been all of Scripture divine such a shame that TAC never has you read the all of Freshman without the magisterium beat Scott to the after reading your comments I have six friends who have decided to convert to Catholicism and immediately apply to You are a wonderful ambassador for the kindly step away from the keyboard and answer your Do whatever the nice men in the white jackets tell I thought you only read the first couple If you read he whole book you will have a legitimate basis for a You have to like the book after reading the whole but at least know what talking not do the TAC Cdom They can both stand on their own I am thinking primarily of Development of Christian Doctrine when I speak of reason that we can say there has been a development of doctrine and further understanding of the Faith without saying that the Faith has altered or In the same emphasis on natural theology does not mean that the supernatural effects of grace have been somehow negated or argued did that make sense as an I am not sure I am saying it quite this is two years endless repetition Scott I go to smart more of a Nietzschean return of the Off to do an have fun If I were one of those fundamentalists who hates the Catholic Church and believes the Pope is the and someone told me to design a bot that would pose as a Catholic in order to discredit the I would design something very similar to Peregrine His name is Scott  Oh You just added another reading that I had forgotten be because it got lost in Does it count that I had a Dominican priest my already awesome senior Theology classes on the Does that make the context sorry you Or be Trolls through the unsurpassed curriculum and excellents tutors at our daughter the was able to explore the relationship between science theology in a more profound way than I saw in many years of grad school in theology at a major Catholic I know of any other place that builds that cultivated freedom of thought into its Certainly not at the other schools mentioned despite their other lot of these comments are real encouraging to someone going back to TAC in a week to start Junior there is a time for and a time for the the time for argument has long passed its own essential theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free for it has in a way that which is desired in all of Liberal education undertaken by Christians and ordered to theology turns out to be liberal education in its Document of Thomas Aquinas College translated from a thug that can Weinberg S C T A C have to imagine the gang Matthew Peterson can demonstrate glad we both agree on that says to the thread hijacking rattling you have some health and human servicing to like most of the rest of just because you say make it true I have my minions to respond to your And if you had read your recognize the reference just now figuring that It Glad you caught See Translation feed the feed the feed the troll troll Oh longer receive notifications about Matthew more of a Nietzschean return of the Or dog returns to own Your as is so Patrick I stayed in the shadows despite the marginally clever conceded only because now weighing the amusing possibility that dear Scotty truly is blind to his own nature on this My Well but who can blame The lack of a properly enlightened background in authentic Sacred Theology has clearly had a softening effect on his we Catholics must pray with each other and other Pray that the Lord gift us Unity among How will we ever have unity among Christians if we are not capable of having it among us in the how many families fight and split Seek unity builds the Church and comes from Jesus He sends us the Holy Spirit to build Pope not let a little online squabble divide Our lady of the queen of love and pray for   And well  I think ever seen this many TACers agree on kind of like how humanity always unites in those movies where the aliens I just look for any good excuse to flash TAC gang signs I flash that every time I go to the in Three at Christendom a conversation about the philosophical particularities of the founders unspoken at you had to poke around to find out or just pay extremely close and possible tendencies to intransigence regarding would really be worth but untrolled ation about the ratio studiorum of the and the role of sacred theology would also be worth having only if Is trolling a a an or a Warren County South River and the Hatch Act Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time Main people will people will most definitely I think Inigo had the last word I would like to have a discussion with someone about the constitution of the for I am curious as to whether anyone else thinks the Politics should be read in seminar instead of I think Peregrine Scott Jonathan or whatever his real name may might have a good so buried under the way he expresses almost no one will ever see Would Aristotle Who do you say I I the Aristotle thesis sounds this is your wake up I am a For next Despite JA scoffing above in way some TAC theses have been really more than fulfilling the promise of their I would like to edit a volume of some of the Can everyone nominate some of their go first using the which I Peter Kay on political Joseph Bolin on Rachel Berquist on the Another Berquist girl on the politics of medieval Joe Zepeda on the Song of Henry Zepeda on Cartesian Joe Kenny on my why have you forsaken Catherine Joliat Feil on Catherine Ryland on David Isaac on and false Pater Edmund on lots more that add when I think of Closing Pater Jeff Froula on the certainty of and Katie Duda on Paradiso as an I imagine your was pretty What did he write Michael authoritative treatise on and have a moment of silence for the Joe rejected De my father wrote on but afraid I read his My mother tells me that it was Nathan idea of limit in the Histories of Unrelated fact about my his senior Matura thing was poetry of Rilke and Trakl in the literary criticism of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Romano There was one on De but I recall who wrote And on how Pater Edmond is wrong was OK Can we still get old theses from Has anyone done that Email Mark Kretchmer keep we quit before getting to a nice perfect number can Elizabeth Quackenbush Brideshead I accidentally liked a dozen comments signed in as my Friend I was dangerously close to missing this thread  I forgot about Elizabeth thesis really I just Being the Oh  Why do I love reading these titles every do you get these sent to or did you have a personal connection to I had a personal connection to all except Miss which her esteemed father linked on And here it Brideshead Google Drive Roy Axel Coats on the division of the fine Peter Knuffke on McArthur once told me that the flourishing of a liberal education requires that we esteem each man our as Paul and not be puffed Keeping that in I will say I wrote a Dante thesis out of which some people got a pretty decent Saw The Scattered Elements Mercy and Order in the Divine I went into it hoping to get TACers more interested in and partly as a result of this the school is now stocking Tony radiantly awesome translation in the so I consider it a personal on the subject of and in no way diminishing Elizabeth thesis for which she is so rightly there is also Pat wonderful exploration of the motif of the pastoral poetry tradition in I have a paper copy and I reread it when I want to be reminded that my class is really smart and Tom Short on torture first not the final version after Goyette persuaded him to water down the main Oh I remember that All the more interesting in light of Capt No one should forget Alex brilliant thesis on I may be speaking to but I think the troll is I have encountered this one before I think under a different Joe Zepeda is spot Do not feed There is no possible no possible point of and for good TAC is the best and I am the Blackwell Joe do you have a copy of yours I read some of it and was frankly blown But long demonstrated an uncanny ability for shedding new light on old ideas starting with your the age of that one be and not be a rotten egg at the same Are But Three How Reading Authors Other Than and Undset Marks One as Insufficiently Looking up from reading this thread all the way to the end for a like staring at an alien I remember the last time I was this Its a of the Edited Pretty much sums it Kevin Kasson wrote a pretty cool And I personally learned a lot from Margaret Michael was huge as and mine at least controversial enough to draw over people to my according to a few people who tried to my defense was standing room but the thesis was crap and the defense worse My defense was a bit of a letdown as But I reread the thesis for the first time a few months and I still agree with it pretty strongly at What was the thesis of your heard the tutors were quite impressed with Louise thesis on Ok wait when did the love fest Is the bickering Surprised no one has brought up Tim In our that was the event of all I had over standing room only at but his filled most of the hallway in the entire classroom And it was Philip thesis on imagination as the cause of error and David thesis on predestination were quite Mary Colette on Anna Karenina I enjoyed a thread this much in a very long Thank you And I have to I think the current prez of Cdom fortunate to refer viz a viz my as would be mortified to find that our friendly neighborhood troll associates so closely with that otherwise fine Edward the Christ Father is at work until so I am at This thesis is fundamentally an endeavor to be fully open to ongoing work in the a work which occurs above all in and through the human It is revealed to the Christian and seen with increasing clarity by the scientist that the world around us is not unchanging and but fundamentally Historical development occurs in many including a development of the awareness of itself in This development is intelligible to the Christian in guidance and orientation The Christian knows that the created universe is a sign of and that God is at work in the perfection of this These among other enable one to fully embrace the pressingly apparent fact that science has progressed in deeply meaningful ways in the course of its most noticeably in the phenomenal insights had by empirical science in the last several hundred These developments are not simply the inconsequential details following from divine they are wonderful insights into the makings of a universe in which God continues to be intimately and for the sake of which the general laws of science always slightly confused when people talk about the world around us being fundamentally Is that to say you cannot understand the kinds of things you find in it without studying its Or is it to say that the easiest access we have to those things is through or is it merely a claim about understanding human Aletheia Herreid Née Price wrote one on Beauty and Art that was Edward are you trying to start another discussion within this crazy This is when an administrator of a discussion forum would start a new Then We probably would have all be kicked off the site by now I do get the feeling that Edward probably has a response to any of the three options which he just which I would be happy to but going to pick my poison after dashing off to dinner right I think alright with the last of the three been working hard to adopt a more perhaps this conversation should end we have exactly comments I learned all the pickup lines and skipped the Then I went to I MAY HAVE DONE THIS WRONG Ronald the first president of Thomas Aquinas College in California passed away on the morning of October Like Warren McArthur was a pioneer in the renewal of faithful Catholic higher education in McArthur was awarded Christendom Pro Deo et Patria Medal for Distinguished Service to Church and Nation in during Anniversary was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are doing Christendom College president Timothy has gone on to his eternal reward and we ask that you please pray for the repose of his soul and for the comfort of his He was a dear friend and will be Eternal rest grant unto Ronald O and let perpetual light shine upon May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in College Mourns the Loss of Ronald McArthur was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are doing Christendom College president Timothy has gone on to his eternal reward and we ask that you please pray for the repose of his soul and for the comfort of his He was a dear You I really do think that this thread is what happens when someone who knows nobody is going to agree with him has a psychological inability not to try for the last just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a Speaking of I recently lost all my prayer cards that were in a Does anyone that had him for senior theology have time to type up the prayer of St Thomas Aquinas that the saint would say after I know McArthur handed them out to all his theology Godhead devoutly I adore who truly art within these forms before to thee my heart I bow with bended Have you even read question one of the prima If you you make such a completely idiotic Because TAC generally promotes understanding of the relation between fatih and Sweet honey on the The Peregrine troll Will this thread never Edward Langley Ignore Pilgrim change the Is it true that the tastes like Speaking of what is Is it or is it John Herreid a very good I think an allegory on A satire on the confusion of discrete with continuous Come you know not what he He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology from assent to divinely revealed not and TAC takes Thomas to be right about Therefore your characterization is all there was to the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the or principal set of data of sacred I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all oh I like Joe Zepeda Matthew Peterson If Aristotle and Batman got in a who would starting to wonder what life would be like without this thread This thread should go on see how long we can make a silly The real question would be if Aristotle and Batman got in a friendship based upon mutual concern for the would it be a true would Aristotle find relationship with Robin a little I am The The Ultimate Compilation PART IS Just to let you my favorite one is Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World This whole of Sacred Theology seems like it would take longer than the life of the earth to Does all include all of heard it said no two men such as men are today could possibly read all that he has must begin a reading program immediately so that you may understand the crises of our Begin with the late including of Then you should dip rather extensively into early You may skip the Renaissance and the That is mostly dangerous Now that I think of you had better skip the Romantics and the For the contemporary you should study some selected comic I recommend Batman for he tends to transcend the abysmal society in which found His morality is rather I rather respect Confederacy of Dunces I only read St Augustine and Blackwell For The Do tell us then what is comprised feed the JOAN BAEZ I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine Joan Baez I DREAMED I SAW SAINT AUGUSTINE The significance of this song is that Saint Augustine was the first to speak out on the Are you telling us something about this Tom Sundaram Tell us abut I think I So Dante was a century Italian from One day when he was he A you want me to continue the please applaud or indicate thus tell us ALL about Dante The Give us the fullness of Because this thread MUST NOT So he saw a But not just any She was and he fell in normally you or if we fell for might Can anyone give me Love A You I was just going to say if nobody said And Dante wrote poetry for Initially it was really bad by the standards of the which means that to this day classicists still nerd out over But eventually it got pretty and he invented a new style of the stil Going to am in wait to see how long this thread gets by the time I wake I have to study but I will tell a little So Dante set out to write BETTER A poem to span the which settled for no theme less than the Love that moves the Sun and the other in adoration of the Trinity and in veneration of his sainted He was pretty We need a sign up sheet to keep this thread Like Perpetual a poem like you just write about the Shire you need some Minas and a lot of So in order to do even a halfway good he needed to start by getting his liberal education From his studies of he produced three very notable the or his metaphysics if you the De his political philosophy per se in light of the and finally the De Vulgari his De Interpretatione or his if Off to Keep it These three works are still epochal works in first political theory and linguistics and show signs of his education by both the Dominicans and the as well as his rhetorical training under Brunetto But to the Divine they were only to be as Philosophy is to his enduring belief in Philosophy as a Lady in as tainted solitary was the handmaid of the so philosophy is the handmaid of the When he had finished he set out to depict nothing less than the poetic exposition of the cosmic character of the Eucharist as the Incarnational mode of communion with the Trinitarian But to do this he had to illustrate precisely the highest mode by which we can relate to God as being simply the being of God Himself And he wanted to by his the enduring and primary truth about creation that the order of the existence of all things is not a rigorous as though God had to create us just so according to a rigid and immutable a priori law broke the rigid sentence from or its seeming abandonment but according to His truly immutable which in its immutability captures the purpose of all just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a AMEN to In doing he realized that the only epistemological mode of truly accessing this mystery was the Beatific Vision of God especially the Person of So to do he had to depict nothing less than a poetic inroad into that the conclusion of his in which the entire symphonic order of the other two Books finds its climax and now my fingers are Maybe more Someone else needs to pick up the Poor answer Poor What is theology if you wont tell me what of sacred at least you can tell me what it is in  I logged off of the Book of Faces for This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no but you use sticks on I think we need to push the number of comments on this thread up over with hand to HECK YEAH Weiss Naive and description of the TAC I comment as a I think the point of TAC is to instruct in Sacred Theology as a but rather to teach young people how to read and think while living in a Catholic They are supposed to have the foundation for continuing to learn about the for evaluating new ideas which come for being informed Catholics and informed It a Peregeine Did you go to a LOT of and the whole program is ordered to its is really not someone worth discussing this I promise But it indoctrination and that sounds like what Mr Bonadventure is pushing I only wish I had a chance to study like I wish you had a summer graduate institute like SJC so I could go through even a shadow of your not raw which he apparently thinks is something people should be getting in instead of even before grade when most people today get the actual study of contra illam involves philosophy as an ancillary I can sympathise with point my perspective is pretty limited having done only one full The theology seems fairly pedestrian extremely orthodox and superb for what it but as the almighty McArthur said to me probably come here for Given that the foundations of Catholic theology are notably absent from high school maybe this approach is just really curious about past What happened to Why does he hate TAC so Much more interesting than anything he wants to talk Thanks for the kind words for the Edmund raises a good which is that catechesis is falling but I think kind of strange to think that has to be fixed by turning undergraduate theology into an RCIA program or a grad Shortly after leaving TAC I took a senior elective at a local seminary on Thomistic I was actually surprised at how good the prep at TAC was for something like and I could hold my own with guys who had already been through years of training for the I say I ever reached a point in my Theology MA where I was totally out of my TAC comfort zone as far as understanding the ideas at If nothing it gives you a great prep just for grasping ideas in general and putting them into a logical I slid into a job in journalism and it was great to be able to detect all the sophistry under the rocks really starting to enjoy off lack of a better Set up something no one is attack it then and aaaaaand sign out front says if I like it I like no such said I like it should be the sign says this could work for me in life not much of a sports really sec let me get my cheerleading outfit make sure it is approved as far as the thang lots of us met our spouses at TAC some of us converted and found the faith at and none of us are unchanged by that for good or That having been yo fat admittedly I may have my eyes glazed over from having made a lot of lasting friendships and rediscovered my vocation there  btw if from TAC and are reading this and you find yourself in London or this seminarian wants to treat you to dinner and a Goodnight all Peregrine Bonaventure even has Michael Beitia defending his alma mater and has single handed lay kept this thread up this far and this Truly you deserve an You are no longer a troll you have achieved the level of the of the even more the level of a comment Yes theology is the fullness of the but what is it that is of that in the curriculum at Do please but a douchey not just a regular Structural Reexamination of the Angelic Hierarchies for the Illumination of Man as a Cosmological Being Cosmic Angelic Causality in the Material Realm Thomas Quackenbush Stuff That The Atom as an Element the above for my current Could have pasted them all for would like to An Insufficient Account of How to Accept Trial from God Are Among Marvels That You Do Not An Investigation into the Parallel Between the Character of Orual and the Land of Glome Premise A Catholic college should teach the fulness of the Premise the fulness of the faith fit into an undergraduate No college is Nice But that makes way too much sense for Boneventure to accept as clearly produces arrogant like to address this frankly almost emittance from Your unjust appellation of this particular graduate of TAC might well be But in my an accident of are clearly a I believe I just spent the last minutes catching up on this And be fair mr a Weiss the fulness of the faith fit into any The whole the whole of thing reminds me of a quote from Ephesians that the Church prays in the Liturgy each has given us the wisdom to understand fully the the plan he was pleased to decree in Any thoughts on what this Someone actually asked me about this the last time I was at Great As a dog returneth to its so a Facebooker returneth to this never defended TAC nor will I just attack His momma so fat that when she sits around the she sits AROUND the house and you have to jump straight to wikipedia is I think maybe Troll the free encyclopedia While trolls can be found throughout folklores the troll has little in common with Instead it was inspired partly by and partly by a regenerating troll that appears in Poul Three Hearts and Three This includes their as tall skinny I got my MA in at When I met with the department although on paper I about to enter the he said that since I went to TAC he was waiving the And I pulled off a Summa Cum mother of I now work as Theology Chair at an Archdiocesan through All that to say TAC was lousy  It really was a great Andrews Max clearly PeregrineScottWhatshisname asked TAC to the prom and was turned Peterson we need video of S C T A C Peregrine is not passing the Turing clearly some kind of performance whaaaaaaat is going on here a man cannot cross a river on its own Then he deserve the other  my gnosis tells me is a perfect Maybe someone should aim for that Christendom has produced some great senior theses For example Dane Joseph Weber on intellectual I will always be grateful to Peregrine for inspiring this Unwritten Tradition Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the indispensable pdf of I was struck by how often they use some variation on I still as I said that the response that Peregrine Bonaventure always brings forth is a sign that his complaints sometimes hit close to nerves or some unclear areas for many and are not mere I stumbled across this thread last night just before I went to It accounted for my crazy dream of returning to campus and going class with Berquist he where the opening prayer had been heard TAC accused of many arrogant focusing too much on not incorporating this or that great never heard it called No comment and we all know that Thomas when discussing the Holy actually reasons to it from human and the articles are not explicating a mystery of the nor a but rather proving that God is necessarily a Trinity from math and nothing compared to how he proves that sacraments exist from historical and how I studied like a good Marxist unraveling the historical truths that dialectically appear through the seminar method The he engages in controversy of any his disciplined intellect preserves him from the blundering discourtesy of but less educated like blunt tear and hack instead of cutting who mistake the point in waste their strength on misconceive their and leave the question more involved than they find He may be right or wrong in his but he is too to be he is as simple as he is and as brief as he is Nowhere shall we find greater he throws himself into the minds of his he accounts for their Are we discussing the way in which we study or the fact that we study Aristotle alongside for certain subjects like natural before why on earth am i even typing i have no Need to take up knitting And But maybe to Protestant of a ubi est Omnia argumenta eius deleta Certamen cum Laudandi qui umbras suas Thomas ne erubesceat really I had no idea you spelled my name Give him a he can be taught is it safe to understand mr that you attended I only say that as I think it says something to that effect on your book of faces the way that the program is built studies things in a historical narrative or it is an integrated historical the program does not study JUST and THEN and THEN philosophy listing what you wrote above more or and THEN some natural theology a la Kunz a Christendom I writing just hit enter by mistake in my I just said that I made a Also I love that is apparently immune to as he completely missed I just adore this I know that this is fruitless but what the We study these things in to give a proper context to what comes in both the progression of but also progression of what formed the That is why the programs are actually not just among the other but in it seems like a fairly logical thing to study theology in the following Sacred Scripture Augustine explaining how to further understand and then an understanding of how Sacred Scripture exists in the The Prima Pars the treatise on then the treatise on the this was written by Thomas this is studied as it is the basis to the for most of the understanding of Sacred Then we study the Constitution of the certain encyclicals by the if you to understand various aspects of not only but also Catholic Social I say that is seems fairly logical to study in that because that is the same manner in which Divinely Revealed Truth has become understood to man over the Why start with the end of the book and not meet the Knowing only the way that Don without knowing how he actually got and the WAY that he got there would be But the brilliance of the integration is the fact that one cannot properly understand the phrases or dare I SENTENCES and paragraphs in most of what Thomas OR Augustine OR Any of the other notions then studied through if one has not first studied those that they refer quote and lean on to make their That is to if one just starts straight in on the summa with a hope to one day read John of the Cross up some other example here one does not have any further knowledge NOR understanding of either Carmelite NOR the Catholic Faith the magisterium just to be THAT IS BECAUSE very very few people are smart enough to just read the Summa and understand its let alone its do students at TAC study logic and natural Is that because the Blue Book says Is that because the founders think that we can reason our way to understanding God alone without the light of because in order to not only appreciate but also have any chance of grasping one must understand his and in a certain sense study the same way that he So is logic an important part of the So much so that it pervades almost every freshman It sure Is Aristotle that important Not because important because that is what follows from an understanding of Western Philosophy doubt they study Aristotle in the same way at when discussing the Great Books of Eastern in order to give the best picture in a short period of time there must be some tie between it Aristotle Modernity Are you seeing the trend the same in Euclid Ptolemy Copernicus Kepler Descartes Leibnitz Newton Einstein missed some and integrated This studies the formation of the And it leads to a full understanding of the So to add the last thoughts based on your last begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by but I know that you see the error in complaining about this as of course you We learn by moving to the more known to to the less known and thereby towards that more known in this makes uses these things as the principles of It does not begin theology and Catholic education with but with syllogism or more fairly stated with This how the study of nor principles of theology are This is how PHILOSOPHY is studied in order to better understand But not THE study of is not off the If this is then it should be easy for the college to correct TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred It does not use assent to sacred It pursues a reason illuminating faith which has no precedence in Catholic Natural may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of It may say it is only a starting point to further But the starting point itself is It leads the student to reason towards instead of faith perfecting AGAIN not sure where this idea is coming but I think that my first paragraph deals with this as But take my word for Mr two What is the ideal of a university as is a Catholic university different in kind from a university welcome Wha QUAESTIONEM unam BOVEM MUTUM hanc lineam commendare You one of the first lessons I teach any students learning history with me is to avoid the mistake of assuming that at any given historical period people all thought the same Being quick to and naturally tending toward young students like very much to say things like just what they all thought back Jonathan Scott or the appears from his profile picture to be substantially older than high school or middle school But that seem to even if your tenuous claim that TAC purports to approach sacred theology in some specific unprecedented way holds any water it does not follow that therefore all graduates of TAC also approach it that or that we all emerge inevitably brainwashed by the In other Bonaventure trying very hard to see things from your point of I really I stick my head that far up my own Maybe you can teach me how to do John just because you getting many responses to your Latin statements mean that we understand Excuse Have we How the hell can you justify calling all of us I expect it from because a troll and been over and over this twenty and I read your Latin because it struck me as pretentious as a canonist in not because I read who the hell are you to be so bigoted toward everyone And to be Knowing oneself to be correct in all and stating that to be the case make one It just makes them Always and in all I think I studied Theology and willing to bet my MA in Philosophy and my MA in Theology on Are you going to tell me where I screwed Because if you want to tell me the failures in my own best be damn well ready to back it up with chapter and Failing to do this means you are guilty of Take your rear yourself up like a man and make your case I know the documents of the Church well enough that I am untroubled by any ideas you might have gotten into your seen your intelligent comments on my I thought you were better than Who the hell do you think you I see you porters and imperial stout at University of Did you really just join Bonaventure in referring to the entirety of TAC graduates as arrogant Answer me you troglodyte was it hard work becoming such an illiterate Tom I think it might be a good idea for Ruplinger to learn how to punctuate and capitalize before he tackles your theology Whoa He might not be illiterate he seems to be acting I grant and certainly there is something trollish in the way he just accused us I want to hear his I I want to hear it out in the where such accusations among Christians ought to be exposed to and I want to watch him try and make his on the distant chance he is he can prove it like a man and if he is he can accept censure for insulting an entire school of not off to a very good really love to hear in what way I am I realized that you could use that to describe it usually referring to whether water is and on the off chance it is literary genius instead of the more likely imbecilic like to know what it The Great Muppet Say The end of the song from The Great Muppet Gonzo takes a picture and Sam the Eagle says his best line Tom I think he intends it to mean letter too long and way too many letters How do you get from A to B on that Matthew Quite mean some people around here need an expert surgeon in He means we are unbearable to be around or converse just as stagnant water is my best In other he stomach I assume that his criticism that our indicates that we get Theology right is because we have a sense of poise and dignity about our rather than treating our degrees as worthless pieces of paper that can be used as toilet rags in I given the kind of paradigm that thinks being anything but passive on the matter is the he would rather we spent all our time talking about social issues and never discussing We would all be perfect souls of You like Jerome to your inquiry whether I have written in opposition to the books of this pretended deacon of who is amply provided for in order that he may furnish frivolous accounts of the blasphemies of know that I received these have suffered so I almost thought of passing over these writings with silent For he flounders from beginning to end in the same with the exception of some jingling phrases which are not says nothing he had not said I have gained much in the that in attempting to answer my letter he has declared his opinions with less and has published to all men his for every error which he disowned in the wretched synod of Diospolis he in this treatise openly It is indeed no great thing to answer his superlatively silly but if the Lord spare and I have a sufficient staff of I will in a few brief lucubrations answer not to refute a defunct but to silence his ignorance and blasphemy by and this your Holiness could do better than as you would relieve me from the necessity of praising my own works in writing to the THE JEROME OHHHHH SNAP QED there is a potable arrogant I just read like hundreds of posts ripping on a certain Peregrinne but find a single post by Just trying to Regarding the I take for a model both the Jesuit tradition and Leo suggested order of Your own is considerably I also question how its That is Regarding just something I suspect in how open you are to I was being tongue in cheek but what do I to be clear I refer to the Ratio Studiorum as explained by I think plenty of cheek to go around in these The real question is this comment thread a sin I must confess as soon as I am But all I did was point to the one interlectual thing I like about my alma this comment thread is building you mansions in And if you die tomorrow and become a will this thread stand as some kind of digital relic of I am a great fan of the potable Arrogant I am also a fan of the classical order of studies I especially like how Leo got it from and how ours begin with Metaphysics and end in the such that all of it is accepted purely based on teacher told me I am open to believe it or not I am not so open to these usual Ex Corde Ecclesiae school contests which seem to be favorite Since I presume your accusations are not actually based in reality or knowing me at just going to assume you defend in which case I hope you are willing to offer an I take kindly to just gonna be an uncontrolled flapping mouth at your you if on the internet nobody can tell me what is I believe that my school deserves an apology when people say ignorant stuff about of five day long comment threads Pray for Ruplinger and Bonaventure both seem to hold degrees from the same school of I think an apology is you should quote Jerome in otherwise the relevant parties might not understand If Bonaventure is really I believe he was asked to leave TAC by Kaiser at some point in his freshman at Scott Weinberg related some such anecdote to me back in the Ruplinger has no idea what hurricane he has just privacy settings can do that to Especially if the person in question has blocked you at some then neither you nor he will be able to see each suspect part of his complaint which i sympathize youre all impotable arrogant bastards you dont study theology BY your own admissions even and he is Would you care to explain how we have so grievously misunderstood The short story is that someone showed up awhile ago and started criticizing curriculum and evading any attempt to reach common Since many of us rightly or decided that argument with this person is fruitless and have begun responding in I pray for their job I think very few TACers would claim that curriculum is perfect for every possible I gather that several people in this thread are quite critical of TAC most of the we just like criticism to come from someone who is willing to actually talk to us rather than at never say not I reject the idea that somehow arrogant because I attended Thomas Aquinas Perhaps you were not deliberately provocative in that other Also  I think that is a although there is a corresponding problem with excessive passivity to the ideas of  I know the Jesuit perhaps a description would be I do know that the method balanced lectures with something similar to a seminar the Obviously the format of the latter differed insofar as it concluded with an authority pronouncing judgment on the positions held by his but something like that happens in the better seminars at hear you with your mouth full like John take a good Stone Brewing Company if you Pistols at Your day has we read the dude that invented that all about Put a sock in In MacArthur and basically never stopped repeating that FYI John this is the type of comment that you cannot see which these gentlemen were responding Peregrine Bonaventure The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and to the relationship between Thomas and the to the human to the nature of the human will and the and so much TAC is a An Because of its which it holds as a and because of its incomplete presentation of the it leads to a truncated exercise of and its students are often grossly I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic August at There are plenty more where that came You Displease Me You displease me greatly and I ignore the both of real great that just for going to a serious Catholic I get to have a HEADMASTER OF A CATHOLIC SCHOOL CALL EVERYONE LIKE ME ARROGANT IN sure and JPII all are real proud of You really do them proud when you insult people on Facebook for no a real credit to the JUST KIDDING HA HA HA JUST A TONGUE IN CHEEK YOU GUYS This guy is the headmaster of a I think John seemed to have missed the context of our snips at So what if he missed It justify anything that he came in without context when he just said bad stuff about our entire Ed he admitted himself he was being I I could come into a heated argument where people are being all defensive about being white and saying retaliatory stuff against an Indian guy it justify me canning all white Screw that circumstantial if you say horrible nonsense about my friends and we deserve an apology for such a stupid Rainy Day Women stone ya when trying to be so good stone ya just they said they would stone ya when to go home I appreciate that this thread gets a soundtrack from time to Heated this is all Scottegrine Bonaweinberg sets up a straw beats a drum and the TAC interblagactivists get all up in a Its stupid and I prod I prod I prod because it I need not justify my basic education to least of all a pseudonymous In the words of Bender Bending Bite my shiny metal ass Futurama references are always appropriate at all you have magisterial aliqui audet dicere quod referentia ad futuramam sint aliquando non anathema of canon And I thought that his escalate anymore than it already the way discussion is a great way to find out wrong Throwing out thoughts at other individuals who all read the same things make everyone We just nod and continue on our I think I learned a lot of humility through Socratic Entering a class being absolutely certain and leaving it being dazed and confused and seeking more answers I think we should periodically resurrect this just the next perfect number is good luck I agree with Isak Benedict and Lauren Ogrodnick personal vice of arrogance has little to do with where I did my undergraduate I am very proud of having made it through and I am still exceedingly happy that such a place I am also proud of what has happened in my life since I read everything in the I understand everything that I did and I participate as much as I should have in every because I have a brilliant mind to match many of my If I was humbled by attending really irritating when some people paint all with one as if each person gets stamped with the same personality upon and any differences or growth beyond the degree are I dated one of these people for a short I must You keep but you seem to understand what you Would you sketch out the principle texts you would use for a four year college curriculum that intends to teach In what order would you present those be would Freshman theology involve reading the what additional texts would you The Dei If you really want a defense of a communication of your view of a good curriculum might help us see what common ground there is to start Are you saying that freshman year would not involve studying anything besides I think what the founders of TAC thought was that a strong foundation in logic and philosophy would help students of theology see the line dividing Faith and it would help theologians begin to understand the faith quaerens by giving them places from which they can both defend the articles of the Faith against objections and show the harmony of the deposit of faith with the truths discoverable by natural Part of the would be should theology opposed to begin with the articles of faith or should it begin with the preambles and progress to the as Thomas does in the None of this is to deny that the articles of Faith are the first principles of Sacred what is first use a technical is not first in the pedagogical Berquist explicitly denied that TAC was a great books The curriculum of TAC is designed to provide the various aids one needs to fruitfully begin to study the reason more is taught at TAC is probably that judged that most students ready for a formal study of After in the medieval Sacred Theology was studied after a rigorous curriculum of never implied that the articles of Faith were all contained by after all some of them as the Immaculate Conception and the were only recognized as such long after Thomas is something entirely exactly what I was should the study of the science of Theology begin with rote memorization of the articles of the or with the philosophical precursors to such a it is a Great Books It says it and it reads It is what it If it is not a Great Books it does not teach sacred theology Berquist is on record denying that TAC is a great books but should neophytes begin by studying the Immaculate Should theology be taught by telling the study whichever article of Faith happens to pique your Perescott is just a beating drum a glutton for punishment trying to distract myself from writing a To prepare them to study still curious what would look it match what I did while reading Thomas on the Trinity and the Sacraments in How should I go about studying the Read the relevant encyclicals and council Not both seem incapable of arguing about this subject like mature I am not beating a I am making true statements about Catholic education and sacred and pursuing a line of argumentation in support of these true which you are unable to perhaps you are stating things and arguing from but you are not answering my questions about your understanding of the In I think a lot of what you say is but I either disagree with your understanding of the truth or the implications you suppose it If you want to argue with us and not just pontificate at you should answer our as far as I can most of the misrepresentation in this thread is on your I have made very few statements of Take my most recent If I were to study the how should I go about If the goal of TAC is prepare students to study then why does it not help students develop a theological habit of Why does it spend years studying geometry and Is this Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy does it not help students develop a theological habit of Describe the habit of does it spend years studying geometry and Because the study of geometry sharpens the logical abilities of the mind and music disposes helping to develop the virtues necessary to fruitfully pursue the study of this Not sure what the question geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy not sure what Immaculate Conception of the Holy is see Marx and Hegel promote errors which help us understand the philosophical concepts that Sacred Theology uses  Edward we did this a few months back with tutors and all in another thread by Frater and it gets no Scot care to be convinced of He is right and we are infidels in his In we are worse than infidels because we masquerade as It is impossible to change his That ended with the tutor is eminently kind and unfriending There was no other My question is if Scott hates TAC so why did he apply attend Freshman year in or He was in my and the class ahead of and another behind me and I believe in another years Perhaps this is an issue of rejecting that which rejected you it happens all the time in relationship And why did the college keep letting him back have I Tell me if you understood the intent of this exchange Bonaventure telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed not from Aristotle or Euclid or valid That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the Sounds a little insecure to Have you even read question one of the prima If you you make such a completely idiotic Because TAC generally promotes understanding of the relation between fatih and Peregrine Bonaventure If you understood Catholic Edward and the you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred TAC clearly produces arrogant who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine say that first part of the Summa is the source or set of the principle data of sacred I responded to your claim that is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed by pointing out that Thomas promotes a very different view of theology at the very heart of what TAC promotes as a good guide to the study of  an obsession and he gets some kind of kick out of Do what is recommended for the treatment of tantrumming children and walk Hahahaha actually now sorry that I spent a bit of time writing an actual response to one of these question when the above is As Shakespeare might have upon I love that around comments on this Was nice to see you But this is nothin short of a waste of  We could have a better discussion if we just addressed one Not out of arrogance but out of I studied with some of the while doing grad post grad studies in I assumed that they were unemployable because they were able to get Jobs at give you a look at Joe interpretation of the Zepeda Come you know not what he He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology from assent to divinely revealed not and TAC takes Thomas to be right about Therefore your characterization is all there was to the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the or principal set of data of sacred I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all oh I wish you would ask yourself might a bunch of educated people not want to argue with Why would someone who has spent at least four years of his life arguing with people who hold all sorts of strange opinions find my attitude How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck graduated from My claim is that TAC promotes by the the understanding of the relationship between faith and reason to be Thomas very explicitly claims in ST just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the so sacred science is established on principles revealed by TAC teaches us that proceeds from assent to divinely revealed not from Thus you misrepresented position on Sacred you either misunderstood or misrepresented my reply to your I never said Summa is the or principal set of data of sacred I merely said that promotes this view and this view contradicts your claim about Perhaps some TACers think that you can demonstrate the existence of the Holy never met In my Senior theology class on the Trinity with MacArthur emphasized over and over again how the ground and source of exposition of the Trinity the Doctors and Fathers of the Church as well as the acts of the Ecumenical is the assent of Faith to matters beyond if some TACers think the Trinity is they get that idea from TAC definitely teaches and emphasizes natural but never heard anyone suggest that natural theology is The wagons may be But just afford more time and space for Freud and Euclid than it does for the doctors of the Church Last time I checked Thomas was a doctor of the We spend four semesters reading We spend two semesters on Euclid and two or three classes on We also read Athanasius and John all of whom are either Fathers or doctors of the in we probably spend more hours in and out of class reading Augustine than almost anyone else in the it does not employ this teaching as a principle in the instruction of sacred but merely as a Yes it in senior theology Thomas and the tutor emphasize the necessity of when the Church gives instructions on how to study it has often said Perhaps more recent popes have been less explicit in this but it can hardly be said that promoting understanding of theology is not acting in accord with the wishes on the Or if it perhaps you should talk to the Dominicans about how they form their not sure how one could read Augustine and think that Sacred Theology is equivalent to natural How do you propose to teach the Faith in a way that the student absolutely cannot not one of a Oh and if you read the loooooong response I wrote earlier it addressed most of your but you go read that response and then tell me that TACers try to reason with kinda when you say things like a very sweet but I would not say that constitutes a credible approach to good that you read a few of other Doctors and theologians of the in addition to Saint But any graduate of TAC is free to reject the Faith or reject the principles of sacred my study of Augustine causes little alarm bells to start Do you really think that any human institution or even the Church could propose the Faith to someone in sucha way that they were no longer free to reject the if God gave them the gift of they will receive and profit from but without that all instruction here below is First my apologies for the offense given by my rather crude In my I point out that sometime between the initial post and my first post Peregrine blocked me know not and as I knew not the properties of such I was mystified that upstanding gentlemen from TAC were continuing to denigrate him at that time it was just a beat down and not the more recent reasoned It seemed unfair to me and the seeming display of arrogance and scorn merited some I hope You may note that I deleted most my I my only Contrary to some I am very favorable to TAC though I have never met any My concerns are over the predominant method of seminar as well as the theology program a problem I likely have with any so no particular dig on Thanks to I was reminded that it is preparatory theology though still the wisdom of Leo order of studies which has a tradition spanning years and is traceable to the Fathers of the I also see the prudence of the older prescription limiting laymen in theological to put it simply they lack the evangelical a necessary aid in that study which which can easily be a danger to own I regard the seminar format as suitable to such My own theology training was mostly unspeakably I am familiar with the seminar method myself since it was how I had I may remind all that the patron was not known for his verbosity under and also that a reminds us that intellectus is not Silence is a rule of but also a rule of philosophy whatever school one is from most evident among the Certainly disputation sharpens the making it capable of receiving but wisdom does not come from within or at least not from A loquacious soul may be but is incapable of being My point of the Latin was merely to remind all that contemporary education falls far short of its but it is a failing in earlier years By contemporary college back in the one had at least two ancient languages as well as logic and preparatory philosophy for the Jesuits they had often begun teaching as TAC is necessarily limited in its aims due to I agree with original statement that the emphasis on Aquinas and Aristotle is strongest it is not nor can be some rival to the schools of whether or Taking note of deficiencies which in my case are ought to put ourselves in a bit more modest I do not know just how trollish Peregrine in all the vituperations at the sole question I asked was not acknowledged it and so I leave For those I strongly recommend Thomas Hughes book on Ignatian education This is my area of expertise if I have It requires more than one reading and some time between and a bit of pondering interesting that the author wrote to remind the Jesuits themselves how much different their schools were even at the end of the Ratio Studiorum read alone leaves one with too many The the first teaching can lay claim to being the summit of Christian It seems superior to plan which is more akin the origin of our own watered down fare and not surprisingly because he was friends with those who established the English schools that disintegrated bit by bit over the  Hint Edward you want to speed this PB believe that the Socratic method is at all appropriate for the study of Theology because it implies that the student can wrestle with ideas or even discuss how something might be Students are the be taught systematically using doctrinal sources No interpretation is go back to your My question is not we free to reject the principles of Faith it is the principles of Faith be put to a student in a way that he cannot Perhaps been somewhere like somewhere that presents the Faith so clearly and coherently with teachers that are so holy that they can impress the virtue of Faith on the souls of their If I wish tell us about that so we can learn their methods and reform curriculum Peregrine Bonaventure Does Jody Haaf  accurately summarise your position on teaching sacred this is my current perhaps I will return tomorrow to see your responses to our Duty Calls this comic occasionally contains strong language may be unsuitable for unusual humor may be unsuitable for and advanced mathematics may be unsuitable for Of course one must ask what is Socratic dialogue Do tutors lead students to aporia or invite sophists to do the What of the many youths who silently listen as in the Lesser Hippias in which Socrates interlocuter is How often do the youths stay Are you familiar with Quigley and John Senior What do you think of the dumb Did you know the Jesuits were forbidden to let students take notes or use lecture Things to ponder can u name a dialogue in which youths are the main and still Edward when I studied we just called him and was instructed by the tutor to think of it as a mental like How many angels can dance on the head of a I wonder if Perescott Wienventure can name the seven liberal arts theology one of and then wonder why anyone would study music or geometry at a liberal arts I suppose his contention would be that you study liberal arts at a liberal arts interesting Most schools study no liberal And one i know of that does produces courteous well born gentleman neither would a school produce nor particularly courteous especially with pseudonymous trolls who have been sounding the same blaring trumpet blast for He never answers but just calls me Like On the bright he finally after a couple of years learned to spell my letter last name Crazy like pineapples The linguistics of pineapple are Cray cray becoming intimidating to comment on this lest one accidentally make a comment that has already been it stopped anyone this thread is just a rehash of about ten others of the same i apologize for being My questions above have two what is called Socratic dialogue upon inspection is not and such dialogues are often only for the benefit of the silent youths listening Secondly there were methods of learning that are now extinct as far as i I almost responded in you set a bad amused at the people that come out of the wood work the longer this goes Also does anyone else get the feeling that we have McArthur and Berquist laughing at us right or more so laughing at what they both always say that they were creating Martyrs for the one of the things I learned from both of is not to engage in a conversation when one knows that there is no real desire to and explain on the part of the The program of study at TAC disposes the mind to by disposing the mind to thing In this we do not reason to the but we think reasonably about the while we have been given this the one thing we were not given was that we were not told how to use this How do we use the gift of thinking reasonably in age that rejects all graduates are charged to defend the Church and her teachings season and out of I suppose the medieval universities present Faith as somethign to be reasoned Daniel et one reason been a bad is to avoid misunderstandings about attitudes to the rest of the Especially for people who cannot see anything of the other I do forget that some people cannot see all the but it would probably be more fruitful for you to work on your Thesis Ed If McArthur were This is all just All of you go spend an hour in the I want to get to a thousand hahahahaha Perescott Wienventureburg calls the comments Your assertion is still bare I suppose starting with Holy Scripture is reasoning Edward you got me started trying to Never mind at least an some of you should probably stay in there for good and get in line for confession those medieval universities only began teaching theology after years of etc da da da da da da da Daniel how can you claim i do not egage in conversation if no one has responded to my Be assured i am searching for the Lost arts are hard to da da da da If not familiar with the how do you respond to I just do In other wondering if the extent of participation in this conversation here is an accurate representation of how they are in Those that come in strong and then give up or and start watching the those that never give those that try to wrap things those that just start throwing random comments to keep everyone those that come out of the wood work as class time comes to the end i simply asked a Socratic what is Socratic If TAC doesnt who responding please see my list of seeming aporeia producing questions there was a different comment inbetween that Michael was responding I think your questions are the ones being thrown to the side while they address someone else still Sorry I know what Socratic dialogue I do know trollish bald and inability to pick up on but my gnosis coming out again and I can only stop on perfect we passed and I cannot stop until By divine decree from the lost gnostic work of Thomas we studied it in junior math This Peregrine moron reminds me of a much less much less and much less entertaining Ignatius I even know where to Some of your comments are the dumbest things ever read on the does not support reasonable discussion on sacred That is a observably crackpot your only is that no one besides yourselves is able to understand You present an You dodge and evade and attack and Hercules Langley has done a fantastic job of attempting to clean the shit out of stables on that really not going to find a more reasonable and kind my questions are perhaps tinged somewhat Socrates was also thought a but much less repetitive than our own Scoregrine Bonaburgwienture Ignatius Reilly the collapse of the medieval the gods of Lunacy and Bad Taste gained Is your real Bonaventure that you long for the days of old when swords were bright and steeds were Again he was referring to someone and dirt farmers farmed actual dirt just it I am sorry if my comments came off as directed toward From what I have read of you seem to be a reasonable I am sorry that you are in the middle of this whirlwind since you seem to have a serious question in the colorful prose that you have put on display brought this to I have always appreciated the diversity of minds that come to and graduate from so many different That is one of the things that I really appreciate about a liberal No one is educated to be a master of any one discipline upon completion of a liberal he has mastered the ability to reason many TAC grads go into diverse Education at all the Medical Performing Visual the list goes Most TAC has fostered the religious and priestly vocations of of its There is something about a liberal education that really enables the liberally minded man to excel wheresoever he feels I know about You could use a little color in your stale prose Right now just wearing the same shirt out in public every and starting to consistently failed to engage anyone kind enough to entertain your more hostile than attacks on an entire These are attacks you are not qualified to having failed to succeed in the program You have consistently failed to avoided pointed mocked your and generally behaved as a stubborn You have not made an You have made bald claims without support and expected everyone to bow before Who do you think you The Think Your words are those of a poor demented To everyone else if offended I surely This is clearly a waste of time and simply become i only see the reasonable half of the I cant imagine the mad raving ghastly dead horse that is the other you care too I may have been frustrated on this same thread two years but you get used to the rhythm of the Bonavenburg You can even dance to John Ruplinger made the Does that bring good luck or Daniel what can I I think in stories and poetry and Bonaventure will say that means I hope to approach sacred I say that man is creative as God is and that art can save Perhaps Bonaventure is simply glad he has such intimate familiarity with the TRUE and PROPER ways to come to know and love the Trinity you read your I was never given the fullness of Sacred the cover of the first appearance of cursed the commonplace And eyed a khaki suit with He missed the mediæval grace Of iron Miniver scorned the gold he But sore annoyed was he without Miniver and and And thought about is my observation off they accuse pg of not answering ad bad no PG has he has successfully turned his interlocutors into I speak for anyone but I just throw that stuff at him because it is Some people be back to misspelling my six letter last name This thread has grown too long to be a medium of reasonable Which is why I post ridiculous a terrible Van I only post deadly insightful commentary with the full authority of and magisterial teachings THEN feeding It is grossly Pray for him You are encouraging his unmitigatable Besides he has a point he cannot articulate in his blind Argue for him Take his thus u could outmedieval him and calm his to feed a fury is worse than be He is The medieval disputant would argue either Help your brother Show him what medieval really The long history of weirdness with this guy precludes that I defend TAC as a matter of nor do I think it is And frankly I know anyone else on this thread personally until you get back to so I just aim to entertain  prayer is precluded at That is a good start I believe pg accused tac of being noncatholic too regrine be an account run by Matthew to troll the TAC PERFORMANCE let me Is it the common aim of the liberal arts at tac to merely amuse while imperiling the souls of Is that what it is Is this Kyrie At last a familiar y theory has something to it no Callicles for you I play the me ask you game  Still at And this my friends is why there will be no online version of the TAC program any time Facebook THE worst way to have a discussion with multiple I have actually had many good conversation via I am sure you are right that there will not be an online version of the TAC DO NOT IGNORE THE Beat him pound him smash But to my not one response and only one Am i wrong to be skeptical of the boasts of It is slightly Color me  Do you mean your question about the classroom method I and I speak for anyone that your question seems wildly tangential to the TAC bad at what it claims to I think is a bad way of describing the typical TAC classroom  There is a history with the Some of us have already had a comment thread with Scott with some amazing discussion the alumni and absolutely no movement on his In he The first time I engaged with him out of charity find the to instruct the and to down play his publicly offensive comments especially about the but now I just take the high Some of us slog through the mud let me ask you a What are the boasts of John Ruplinger such a long I know what you or wonder hardly tangential since it is the method claimed by tac grads and I raised both criticisms and The lack of interested inquiry raises further concerns to the tac method the Dumb Ox method which welcomed considered and met and took all sides like aristotle of any I raised both criticisms and How can one respond to them if he find Or easily read the why I say this thread is TOO i am sorry they are lost in the whirl of dead horse And the TAC method is what the boasts mb are scattered on this thread but why should i respond when tempered serious questions are being for John Ruplinger I So is this respond because you d probably agree with much of what you I could give you serius and reasonable But the thread is too Given that the troll is I am willing to participate in a real I was going to try to give you a serious but I think your question needs questioning  John asked about the Socratic He asked if there are any examples of dialogues between only young He is opposing that to the teacher crafting a discussion with one person he is drawing out the lesson  I believe John was also one who put forward that learning is more passive than active that might have been the Ignatian education person above no idea of name The root of his question was whether or not the method used at TAC was effective even  I am really confused on why John restated his own questions since you have all asked him to in various But there you He can now say I am misrepresenting him TAC the socratic It is more like the he described above except all the scattered opinions and objections are from different sides of the since none of us have the wherewithal to keep it all in one mind  I would also say it varies from one tutor to another that is more true now than when I attended in I have heard some shocking stories about how some classrooms are So it is hard to say does when tutors have their own NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO ONE QUESTION I wont say mb because if memory serves u didnt make them and i dont expect u to defend To Jason i cannot write words from a My guess is it starts at post  the mating call of the second semester TAC ither Socratic method nor Scholastic It is for better or for I think John Ruplinger raises some good John Senior makes a similar point in his thinly veiled polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Mr Berquist was ready to concede the faults of the seminar especially for theology indeed the theology tutorial when taught by Berquist or Neumayr was de facto a On the other the seminar method is very good for certain k it would be much better if TAC stopped claiming to be anything This ought to become a singles meet and greet be more But the seminar method is Socratic in the sense of concepts which people assume they understand when they On the other lead by a skilled it is an exciting way of uncovering what is implicit in what people already and in making distinct what they know both of the above Charles De Jacob and Socratic Logocentrism The Quebecois journal Laval théologique et has recently uploaded its archives to the This was the organ of Laval School and the early issues contain lots of Both in philosophy and in theology learning consists largely in making distinct what one already knows in philosophy what one knows by blogpost linked and in theology what one knows by the sensus fidelium the bell for sure this thread will still be alive so till  Thanks to Matthew wording in the header for the thesis title we now have a thread with a higher word count than most of those thesis  JA why do you say that about dropping er I think an awfully stretched sense of but I go into it further while you are vespering and thus unable to defend yourself Unfollowing this Good Escalante is The closest I ever experienced to at TAC was me explaining props to others stuck at the board in Other than it was more of discussion for better or and not counting Neumayr or It a little like Meno my response I will try Reread if u will my questions if u have restate them better For Why was he called the Dumb Thanks for the the thoughtful I always thought that a lot of the anguish about the program came from misleading as it People think that TAC proposes no positive teaching and that everything is left to students to discuss and decide for ala but with years of This was decidedly not my At least not after the first two The classroom method itself varies from tutor to tutor and it really Socratic in any sense that Socrates even a law would Nor are the great books or the discussion methods the primary purpose of the least not per Berquist or Some people bewailed much too much not enough I was never much bothered by the fact that the school had an official blocking Peregrine and unfollowing this Sorry for any bad impressions I I speak for myself and not on behalf of TAC or all TAC although I am much more thankful for my time there now than I used to This is mostly sound and fury and I just remembered that I will have to answer for every idle as will we I wish you all the best God bless and good Keep the  For those who are actually still interested in the Socratic Mr Berquist left us this Why the Discussion Thomas Aquinas College One of the distinguishing features of Thomas Aquinas College is its Discussion Method of Though the technique is as old as it has never been in Nor is it The vast majority of colleges here and abroad use the lecture Yet what Socrates saw in it over Neumayr  And reading another Berquist lecture he says this pertains to this fb the reputations of such lecturers dissenters and intellectual those who attend might come expecting an intellectual against under such circumstances learning does not ordinarily take From from a less  Someone should compile a quotable Berquist It might not be as popular as a quotable Molly Gustin one but much more That was the first TAC lecture of my freshman That caused a veritable among the and unruly student body  of will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your and we regret that Mr Berquist lecture  Classic rock the first confrontation I had with the head prefect was me listening to Minor Threat as loud as the stereo would go with the door fun Margaret Grimm Blackwell this was a few hundred comments but here is an online Senior Google Drive Shannon you are my favorite For some reason I see this thread going on for so long and becoming so huge that eventually it will subsume all of the internets into I think it may be the action of the world spirit coming to know The I appreciate the thoughts and consideration but i see little interest in I like TAC and all and am prone to Several comments help me to understand better the And hopefully the storm of post is Anne Schniederjan Can someone summarize this A lengthy demonstration of the difference between and thermonuclear troll according to the lighting a troll on fire is the preferred Or turn them into stone by drawing them into an argument so long that the sun comes go home Sceregritt drunk you misspelled you really need spell check hence the straw man more straw Are you a Did they make scarecrows up in we have it on the grand authority of Scottrine Wienventure that they Why argue with such an august master of insult and bold do My tolerance for douchebaggery is Real discussion is because things get way twisted through his pathological neurosis regarding I need to convince waste of but caution against anyone taking him The notion that he wants to blew out the window many threads ago finally realized what this thread reminded me of A Different Take on Reality Hours of Swimming Salmon Norwegians love their boring from the progress of a ferry boat to a You all need to do something ANCHORMAN Brick Killed A Guy hahahahahahahahahaha i dont own But this OWNS I trying to illuminate the o pseudonymous troll Exception to On the Absence of Reductio ad Hitlerum Arguments in Long and Rancorous Online Discussions of the Titles of Undergraduate Theses From Small Catholic Liberal Arts So many and I still think Aaron Gigliotti had the best You Want to Share an Apartment in The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to JA I agree that the meaning of is being a bit streched in my comment but not more than is usually a scoffer but Mr Gigliotti I see how it Pater I do think Joel HF has a good point about how some of the SJC inspired promotional material that the college uses is slightly how a real scoffer summarized the theology tutorial at TAC not making this year the TACer reads the Bible and thinks this book is glad I never have to read it Sophomore year he reads Augustine against the Pelagians and this is probably going to Hell and can do nothing about I hate Junior year he reads the Prima Pars and This makes so much I LOVE St This is real never going to read anything except St Thomas ever Thank you TAC for introducing me to this amazing I Love my But were you thinking of something like point when you said TAC should avoid calling what it does in any way or did you have something else in than slightly it verges on false kind of like the horses in the old pamphlets from the But TAC itself is very confused about what up Contra the FB personage whom I still think might be Peterson in TAC most definitely teaches lots of it just does much of that the SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about TAC that but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of This certainly involves except that its position as regina sc is very oddly related to the SJC method TAC Too one ends up with is neither fish nor TAC classes and method are to Catholic wisdom what the State is to the Church on the Maritain Pater But this is where I think my pet theory about the analogy of confused knowledge in philosophy and theology comes I think Matthew gets cash from FB if this hits What TAC really understands itself as doing alas this come across in the promotional is peripatetic Recall that works were not strictly lecture notes as the many foolishly but actually discussion outlines for walking around and d we never stroll for class then Because we were and girls like to chat sitting nderstands itself AS A ROSARY It all makes sense ahem ahem what its doing as peripatetic But it also itself as teaching Catholic It just leaves the relation of those two in practice to ad hoc improv on the part of tutors No but my theory in philosophy learning is a matter of making distinct the very certain but confused and implicit knowledge that we have of the of the Physics and all that Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic the Apostles had the fullness of revealed a fullness which they could as little realize to as the human as can have all its thoughts present before it at So there is no opposition between paripatetic discussion and Catholic  I think there are several questions What is TAC Does TAC understand what it is kind of think who cares to this one except when it comes to final and most Is what it is doing  is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic Pater Edmund Is that you or Newman I kind of Except it sounds more accurate to say seminal in place of  But if Newman said I might have to just JA Escalante writes has as the aim of the class to have thought well about TAC that but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of I think that is precisely the difference between socratic and peripatetic SJC is TAC is So I agree that the Perpatetic Socratic amounts to false Jody Haaf the part was from OK with opposition between peripatetic method and the substance of Catholic But TAC entirely it has time constraints and wants to get at the truth in a hurry if all seen and It would be better and more honest to just lecture in that TAC just its a and the curriculum as it stands really have theology as regina it sort of Like I in more of a Maritainian State to Church theology is Regina in two the other sciences are ordered to and she is the judge of I think the TAC curriculum embodies the former and towards the end gets you to see the but without actually embodying the later  I think what TAC is trying to do is nearly impossible very because the students are for the most part poorly prepared to receive So not only do they want to achieve a certain level of learning by the but they have to prepare the foundation in the students even more remove the impediments to before It is remarkable what they can do with a class of mostly publicly educated students in modern America in merely The learning model they emulate never had such an uphill battle to I bristle at the accusation of the arrogance of the founders because the older I the more I am in awe of their humility to be willing to read and let me my make attempts at discussions on such lofty Seriously maybe I could have benefited from more lectures but not really in the long But flesh out the Maritain analogy a bit no architectonic The curriculum is aying that people put it all they can and But not built into the ratio studiorum all know that the REAL regina scientiarum at TAC is math no one really gets thrown out for not cutting it in freshman freshman math is the only severe criterion The Berquist Steadman Dialogue is very relevant  r earlier you said and all that comparing the Physics to jazz would get you excommunicated by Berquist in a jiffy   rquist had a clear conception of what he was up just say that TAC as a whole never and never consistently embodied that idea  that I would agree the admissions office and its propaganda never really understood the Berquist or at least never really conveyed The Berquist Steadman dialogue is here  That dialogue is kind of It would have gone better if Mr Berquist could have done the questioning of the I think that poor man had no idea how far off base his questions and  by poor I mean Steadman We used to do dramatic readings of that dialogue in the dorm late at Mr Berquist never managed to make theology loom in TAC practice meant bits of not read in particularly useful how many TAC grads came out being able to say anything for the question of infused contemplation they chose to write a thesis on But that kind of thing is crucial to Catholic how many could name the theories of and which of them are considered orthodox and which after discovering it in a library ogue is the paradigm of the experience of the Guest Lecturer I remember going over to the Berquists house once think sophomore and Mrs B asked your favorite class this I hesitated and Mr B said supposed to say  I had the best theology That helps a But I think right that he entirely successful in getting theology to loom as large as he  MacArthur x  But you guys getting what he is saying about the there are different ways for theology to be It is that to which the program is Being the reason for failing one of tell us about the cash Matthew much did you Jody Haaf no but the fact that so many more graduates seem to want to study philosophy than theology in grad school that actually or am I just making that Idk if it is true it would support  Does It might be more a sign of their maturity after Or the practical options for grad for financial opportunities or lack of are likely Fair How to Become a Superstar Student at Thomas Aquinas College I created a fan page for this The Neverending Thread This is a fan page dedicated to Seniors and Thesis a link post and ensuing like this first sarcastic comment above is now becoming kind of e Development Office could use involvement extremely  You were serious Latest post on this Questions for Socratic Is the Neverending Thread a part of Sacred Theology per se or per What is its relation to doctrine of the eternity of the Would Fabre consider it an If the Thread goes on can it be Is it a continuous or an ensemble of discrete What would the Founding Fathers have said about Would you like to go with me for a rosary  I think we are all Or have really big things to do like  I have been reflecting on the current discussion and some previous remarks by the troll and I have come to It seems to me that the fullness of theology and the assent unto is found in the and nowhere is perhaps more or at least more in the Eastern The fulness of the faith does not consist in a body of written Perhaps this is why Our Lord you had faith the size of a mustard That being the study of Sacred Doctrine in a formalized manner can and ought to advance relationship with We do not study contemplation in a formalized because it is not the sort of thing that really can unless one is brought to it by The reason for this is that teaching properly involves only the ordering of concepts in the order of learning so that the intellect can properly receive A teacher properly move the A teacher can probably do certain things to attempt to positively dispose the will of the but in the the will can only be moved by Pater when Berquist said that Theology ought to be your answer when asked is your favorite maybe that is because your response said more about you and the disposition of your This is a dangerous type of argument to you were good enough you would realize how good something and if then you given the excellence of the course material that we study in I feel confident in making such an JA I object to the position that the admissions office never really got what the school was At least when my Tom Susanka was head of admissions I know that he would confer with the particularly McArthur and Berquist about the school and what was essential to There are few alive I who have a better appreciation of what the school is and is supposed to be than my That being I am not sure that is true of all those who responsible for nor necessarily for the admissions office At some point Mr Coughlin at the decided he had to do something about wrong and had the admissions people send the blue book to all It make much hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external By this because of the authority of the supremely truthful we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal our creator and Man Faced Ox Progeny Down Our Way A little clip from at Thomas Aquinas This barbershop quartet was They could have been maybe they still We had a great Dissertation fully assented to the just special The RCC has always regarded its theology as a textual corpus insofar as it is ecclesia docens r move That is In that i was merely trying to understand how one can take seriously what the troll hat Mr Susanka knows what the school is or what it wants to be I think the problem was an unintentionally misleading use of and by and problems inherent in the ratio studiorum which he might not have or if he might have just chalked up to human No fault iased by my own I left TAC for DSPT after two years because I wanted scholastic formation in its proper Let me tell learning logic John of St by lecture method felt like heaven after slogging through the Organon in But TAC still manages to work wonders despite what seems to me its somewhat ramshackle and I feel mostly patriotic feelings toward it You may be Something to think about TAC was wholly Nothing of its kind ever I suppose we should not be surprised if the ratio and practice differ Here is another way to put How else could the school explain to people what it was All the all fall and Discussion are close and they also are familiar enough in the preexisting academic categories that they seem to be reasonable choices for like I no fault ee with Jody that the founders were pretty heroic I also gained something from the DSPT course on Aristotelian It was good to go  Just as we even close to the record for comments on a fb That start splicing those replies I suggest if you want to reach such  And still oh bet we beat anything Christendom College has ever done here   I still think our word count is higher Edward Langley set out to do I think that is a noble at least a The Neverending Thread This is a fan page dedicated to Seniors and Thesis a link post and ensuing like this JA you left TAC after TWO No wonder you think the ratio studiorum make the sense begin to become clear till JUNIOR GO BACK AND FINISH THE PROGRAM AT This explains all the things that have puzzled me about your FB I now understand your bizarre take on Klein on YOU NEVER DID JUNIOR Why is there no button on I need to dislike this Only because it reveals that Escalante MISSED My dear go go go I left TAC after four and a half ultra By the JA Escalante there were horses at TAC when I was there so the advertising material was not There is a lot I could say on the topic of the TAC and on this is probably not the just make one parting all these anecdotes about the program of study from one who supposedly attempted it several times and never another who attempted it for two years and quit and another who has never even met a graduate of the program leave me grateful that I learned the limits of personal experiences while studying at Pater Edmund I think more TACers DO study philosophy than theology post but this may say more about the state of theology grad schools over the past given how befuddled Stedman et it is hard to think that one could get the true purpose across in an ad in the National Can you blame the school how shall I say emphasizing the easier to understand aspects of the curriculum After plenty of people come year after year expecting little math and lots of The school could hardly be more explicit about exactly what is Fair I wonder if comparing what graduates study after TAC is a fair assessment of the or rather it speaks to the type of person who will suffer through years of Some are Others What else are they good modern world is unkindly disposed toward a more genuine liberal arts Its a real The traditional jobs are closed SJC has other probs but TAC would fit in a more sane I remember speaking to Neumayr once when I was in the thick of bearing children and before I went to graduate school to study He told me I was using my education exactly as it was meant to be living my life and being a good Studying Theology say a lot about How many graduates are striving for Teaching the faith to their own Volunteering at their Another question  I do have a response to but better not to say it could provoke another good Suffice it to say her complaint I think is legitimate in my You read her point as a Michael Beitia is it spelled I think true And wager there are more TAC alumns STEM degrees than Could be wrong about that Who is I think I had to read him wrong with reading or I just they read Elliot at Christendom Is there no college left that will magisterially magisterium the fullness of Magisterium your magisterial mouth  Christendom studies How sacred Is that like healing I actually picked up a copy of by Tinbergen at a library book sales a few years Really philosophical disciplines are to be taught in such a way that the students are first of all led to acquire a solid and coherent knowledge of the and of relying on a philosophical patrimony which is perennially valid and taking into account the philosophical investigations of later This is especially true of those investigations which exercise a greater influence in their own Account should also be taken of the more recent progress of the The net result should be that the correctly understanding the characteristics of the contemporary will be duly prepared for dialogue with men of their Optatam waaaaaay too some of the tutors at TAC are literature Learning And Discipleship Marcus Berquist Free Download Streaming Internet Archive A lecture at Thomas Aquinas College so mocking Elliot with pulp movie garbage is sacred holistic crystal healing so subscribing to the idea that in order to teach something you need to be specifically trained in that But where there is no there is a Which word wants not I Want which word wants The words of this my A scroll unfolding and rolling revealing The beast in the word as the and the word Made and the word made Yet In the world by word made the Honey to bitter to How shall I speak the The end is the Much I want to much I must If say but you I should speak in Not more understand That you misunderstand have no idea what typing Does anyone know a literature PhD English preferably to explain this to Related probably to I have always been struck by interpretation of taking the gold from All and beautiful things belong to to be more evidently than but my oh what a poor world it would be if theologians did not read I was at TAC WHEN THERE WERE When there was only one permanent I was there in its gritty The frontier All these young whippersnappers have only known the luxury of permanent Could they quickly saddle up and ride when a lookout is WASC is JA Escalante I agree with Peregrine on per accidens or per Per an time agreed with I enjoy the poetry of but I agree with Peregott on principle and the slithey toves Did gyre and gimble in the All mimsy were the And the mome raths cried pretty sure i was i was excommunicated by pope It was invalid though and he didnt usf the book and candle Why not missing just quoting Elliot right now John you suggested above that it is dangerous for soul to study theology unless one has taken the Evangelical I would like to see some discussion of What do people Is it OK for and diocesan priests to study Or should it be the exclusive preserve of vowed religious as JR Surely everyone has to know SOME but I guess that JR meant that only religious should study it John do you think that liberal arts colleges whose students are lay people ought to have no theology What exactly is the claim quite the dig at TAC Renaissance man masquerading as a Victorian man of leisure perhaps some might say that educating is a higher But someone whose main thrust is magisterium understand to say what you will about the merits or drawbacks of the culture of but to personally attack the people working there seems a new low not new I should revise I agree with the old school that theology ought to be limited for lay I studied the I only see the I certainly limit Diocesan are under a stricter obedience and generally have the faculty of preaching from the So its not so much Evangelical I see big problems with the proliferation of lay theologians of we have these Like Peregrott TAC introduces We want to enter into a comment thread with a bunch of amateur know it all theologians like Suffice to say I used to like Newman a I still love his little essay on Elementary brilliant and thought I regard his development while as condemned and very very dangerous the Syllubus of Pius Watch out for fireworks LIS I was ANATHEMITIZED by pope Peregrinne lay SO what does Peregrine think of the distinction of remote proximate What is the THAT might clear up a lot of the troll beatings going on you cannot get him to define It has been Any question on that front provokes the TAC teach sacred and again and again Has he read Pastor beats me I would argue that Dei Verbum in fact endorses John Henry theology of development is what lead him out of What part do you think is irreconcilable with the his understanding of development wrong condemned by the Syllabus almost verbatim at Doctrines are not like Newman says Rather they are the same in the beginning as some literally the others indistinctly as you Pater note in your essay linked The problem with Is that it opens the door to changing doctrines which is Dei Verbum has some but I read it in a long I remember when I taught Scripture the first I went digging in Dei Verbum and others more I was very disappointed because I was clueless as to WHAT the Church I wish I had read more closely Providentissimus Deus because very very clear there and so not so much like Pater as it is like an already sapling tree that grows new branches with The problem with development modernly is that it is an easy tool for the full blown modernists to use to overturn unchangeable they do it and they have done I thought development was not that something that was doctrine could no longer be doctrine but rather along the lines of the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception the development of understanding and clarity within different But did the Immaculate Conception ever or was it always there but merely that is the question the only development would be with our better understanding of conception and more certitude as to when the soul comes into Read the Syllabus of Some of what passes as standard fare is condemned in it rightly because it leads to CHANGE of doctrine which is impossible because Truth cannot change over The history of theology is nothing but development on our end but even it is development ever born of and reaction to heresy before it is even determined to be and after heresy which is new every morning and thus And this development is born of amidst brutal and emotional and intertwined with so much other than the pursuit of truth in the much for this very And yet our view of the Truth does change over and this is a traditional thing to because it is manifestly and does not entail that what truly is changes with our take which everyone now I But I am only an In my opinion there are NO real theologians anymore not very very THIS on the authority of that tiara I gots on my head right So  clarity they can mean the Refining things that have always been seminally I think over of the first years most would actually have agreed with although they might have put it differently and this difference in language might signify more and put you more at But have to Pull back up at the bar here on my way no a difference between indistinct and something that can is to Jody And answering very real questions that were never asked until circumstances No that is the question and I am just not well enough just say that theory was on the chop block in his There were propositions almost verbatim in the AND MOST even assuming some bit of development that is it has now morphed into something a real change of Pius X brought in the hammer of all of the synthesis of all PASCENDI DOMINICI take some of that  That how I read But that would be a whole other thread to do a I used to not It may be that my pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other But when you figure out who and what the modernists happen to as defined in Pascendi of theological  I guess someone could misapply principles but that make him in error on Apparently that has no Propositions in that work are explicitly and almost the same condemned by Syllabus of Remember he wrote that as still an He was not made to recant but his book was on the chopping block and moreover it was REFUTED by someone here in the States whose name I forget I less like a and more like the blooming of a get all poetical and I suppose take back my analogy I start I am a little befuddled by the supposed condemnation of Joshua Kenz would know better than That being Newman would hold that The Immaculate Conception was in some way believed by all for all Certainly the Church clarified her teaching on the matter and that is why it was so I think you are right that the notion of development has gotten out of but that is hardly reason to reject it as It may be reason to stop teaching it so I am reminded of Cardinal remarks about the primacy of With regard to this he said that was certainly but people clearly handle so stop talking about A good pastoral if you ask I am of the same mind with regard to lay I think they have an important place in the and I think many of them have made positive contributions to the I think Pope Francis is right to combat The gifts of the Spirit are not determined by whether or not one belongs to an That being lay theologian can and should be subject to the Bishop insofar as they teach insofar as they teach theology they are sharing in the pastoral For the general edification of the on the Religious Google Drive can somebody please change their profile All these Arabic are getting Clearly you hate persecuted just lay theologians Sorry I got carried away having read too much ouch A very basic knowledge is all that is the cartoon of static stasis is What serious aspect of the Faith since Christ ascended hammered out by human beings confronting heresy that even understood as heresy Where has there NOT been This fear of development reveals an failure to comprehend theology From Peter grappling with could even become Christians at on out to the right understanding of the We all need to take some meat with our   John can you support your claim that ODCD was Does this mean I have to go read ODCD and PDG and it will be self Nothing more than you got me But would you say that the apostles understand that Christ was the same substance as the Father until LATER WAS invented the word I meant to  and naming are all different Well I know they need Others later on READ the Save Just ask yourself whether you believe these things condemned or I have it on very very good authority that his book was suspect of If you really want I can look it but my time on the internet is very I know one author who does a most excellent but some might not be able to handle the MEAT that he feeds fixed it not trying to slam you or anyone I just get There is an easy ideology of static stasis in some Christian circles that needs to be thoroughly The Syllabus of Errors and some grumpy Popes are not answer books for all time to be used as two dimensional standards of ideas the syllabus is composed of general condemnations culled out of context from prior and complicated events and as Newman points But as even a cursory history of doctrine makes councils meet and decide what people should believe in the midst of flowering they are called to respond to and the messy demands of fragile human beings in very flawed communities trying to figure out what the hell to do and think about good and I AM NOT STATIC NO NO NO NO I have jettisoned more opinions than many minions of TAC hold in a I take the minion thing as a cute never seen it SCREW Grumpy popes Now i am taking off the Look I think key here is why one even needs a Holy Spirit guarantee for the as need for the It because this all works out the Time for good old fashioned bronze knuckles a la Homeric boxing Menin aeide thea Ruplingeri But the Holy Spirit does not guarantee Which hurled the souls of strong lay theologians into the house of EVERY were I like grumpy Popes But not sure how effective they are or have been Internal reform is more a matter of doing and restructuring than it is of yelling about error interlectually speaking from on That stop the Reformation nor the THAT IS THE PROBLEM because they denounce they appear to us as grumpy just go with okay FALSE PERSPECTIVE you of all people should be recommending Pope Barney the purple To I use Spirit a bit tongue in What that actually means doctrinally is a complicated Pope Pius X was a a lamb I tell Pascendi is what happens when you tear his sheep to The lamb has teeth and a roar real for you Pascere in like the first word of his The to that document is great and MANLY none of the new fad limp wristed not recommending fwiw What did the Syllabus accomplish other than making present day trads feel good whenever they trot it That document helped lead me from confusion to understand what tradition I born in a I only choose to live there now do you see the need for many of the modern I think it helped lead to the VII and the very parts that the defenders of the Syllabus hate most of Just call me Supertroll if you if I need to start a Is that what you my tiara back You have it all backwards I just know what I can say to help you see things I know whether we can come to an agreement on And talking about it from this angle is debating from conclusions and not there were no during Pius I have read almost every VII and many of Paul VI documents and Especially the former combed through many in WE HAVE AT THE LEAST very very serious problems with writing afraid more than that As von Hildebrand pointed out a letter to Michael Davies long after he wrote Trojan we do not have to accept most of these documents do not have the kind of authority folks thing they do the pastoral in the nota hope I too But got really really serious problems that just because trads are right because trad catholics the heresy being fought in Lumen just that many many are not one of Lumen what doctrine is being or heresy stupid is just a question  so I guess saying What is Lumen What is your it is an What is the point of I read I read new Encycs in a few nudge assume all always arguing Maybe I should ask WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE LUMEN is the that is often the Do we have more or less like an of the i just want a brick wall I can beat my head against sometimes when I look at the confused Does anyone read Jacob Great explains everything you need to know about so much that is I suppose is the core of is probably important to focus Paul say too much about is to make sarcasm more I wonder why  maybe I distinguish sarcasm from reality in other I just popped open Newman to give you guys his five definitions for and then you moved on so I am a little life IS disappointment thanks for the I was just I think from Princess I read I was just ribbing  On a pretty good I know why everything needs to be brought up unless that just means brought up to our current state of absolute frickin unbelievable state of THE CATECHISM OF The Creed Introduction The Catechism of Trent Can I wax nostalgic for page or is that too Just started reading the Catechism of Trent a few months ago AND if that precisely like the remedy for our I know what very precise hard and YES MICHAEL WHY ARE THEY ALL SO DAMN RAMBLING rambling the criticism by Garagou Lagrange of a certain dissertaion of a UNAM SANCTAM Urged by we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is and also We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of as the Spouse in the Canticles POST This is the thread that ends so we or Put aside your time bound anxieties here on the thread that never Nina Rachele Post and be There are senses of of which Newman thinks can be used in Christian and metaphysical  who is Nina and will they feel uncomfortable being tagged in this we move in a circle the eternal return of the a wise fellow remarked comments ago Sorry Nina Rachele tagged wrong I love GRUMPY OLD DEAR PLEASE GRANT US AGAIN YOUR GRUMPY OLD UNAM SANCTAM is short and sweet metaphysical I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea and terminate in its exact and complete delineation in the sacred provinces of the mind may be employed in developing the solemn which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning pg section No I just thought she might be a little surprised to be I really miss the stakeburnings I have a big next to most of the ethical development developments are not properly matter for argument and but are natural and substituting what is for strictly logical pg ch section The main example he gives later is Holy which I think refers generally to the development whereby He was reserved in the and then the later development of Eucharistic need to quote historical it just means finding the right dates of things that happened in Here is post Syllabus trying to undermine said Newman and the Pope Part II by James Larson John Henry Newman undermines the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX He led a campaign to undermine it because he KNEW that he held least at one many of the things Logical developments also really have one place for their just that intellectual process is detached from the and posterior to From his I think mostly referring to when certain practices or ideas are held just as empty words in one then in the next the actual spirit of the words gets taken up as a real A good example might be the civil rights movement insisting on actual equality a hundred years after it was granted to them in Nina huh is A careful examination of his epistemology leads to real read his Grammar of I trust account of it fundamentally nominalist it seems to which is very problematic for ALL dogmas of the Part Does God Love An Examination of the Epistemology of John Henry Newman The best and every perfect is from coming down from the Father of with whom there is no nor shadow of By political development he is talking about the development of church government to various other church governing  his epistemology is modernist condemned in He is adulated today because he espoused which necessarily leads to the devaluation not of dogma and contributes to their just for my next to the ethical development passage was because he was quoting a verbose bishop as some kind of example and it flew right over my been a loong while since I read LIS he is the protoevangelist for the end why everyone is all Newman said Newman said he says some good but upon close TO YOUR this appears consonant with He holds almost a double But I read him in Now this is actually going out for a Lauren this This thread just To be we are in time in relation to So we may go somewhere based on our interaction with But it itself is outside of in time only by now that I have provided you all with this may I suggest you take his definition of metaphysical development as the primary definition of development and discuss further from if I were actually asking the opening question at this I would open to that quote and ask this Is it consonant with Church Just so you the main example he gives of metaphysical development is the Athanasian we characterize the Creed in that I need to go study for my paralegal class so catch you folks on the flip Okay Proclus What is jhf read I will summarize I know but I like you Random Still not sure why Peregrine insists on mispelling  One of finer mysteries Megan  It probably goes back to comment Please summarize comment  I know when it started I believe the wrong name usage predated this particular thread as to his as he states it thus he just say development It seems a misuse of the term if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by He seems to be mystifying what should be straight But is this all that Newman for going to have me look Joel immanence signifies the divine presence in all people or all It is often signified contemporarily as found in all It often accompanies the belief in universal De Chardin comes to Twenty year olds are for the most part intellectual babies and should be coddled and spoon One of my architecture professors once told us that architecture was old and I think the same is basically true of theology Unless you are thinking of old which I admit do sound I really want to try and understand what you are saying but it might take me some time to get through what return to this thread to find it I was but FB is too stupid to take me directly to that I had to dig a bit to find only to find that much has expired And I am afraid by the time I catch up and think on I will be in the dust But if I can make a general observation on Ruplinger points to That is the heart of the I loved Newman when I first read his Apologia pro vita sua I was turned off when I read the Grammar of For those familiar with the analytic tradition of you will recognize that in even though he actually predated Many of the same principles held by Frege and other analytics prevail in It is not as favorable to logic though in the direction he takes People have use but a better description might be a methodological scratch He was straight up in his were just vague that need not even apply in the Take is For Newman that might be a justified but he will say that mean all men are rational But let us here his own as a men are and there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular but we must know him to be sure of of We can really know Only in the If you want to read for yourself Newman Reader Grammar of Assent Chapter I is the conditional acceptance of a Assent is the the object of Assent is a the object of Inference is the or a The problem which I have undertaken is that of ascertaining how it comes to pass that a conditional act leads to an how does is epistemology affect his theory on the development of That be too hard to see that it in some very concerns in both works being along the same it might be a dissertation to analyse it Christopher Wolfe do you have thoughts re analytics and Newman Do that Newman was quite idiotic in his naive rejections of much of scholastic If you read the link I you will tell readily that his rejection of universals rests on the sort of prima facie reading that a teenager might give to is Namely that he may be But that is to misunderstand what is rather badly at But he have TAC to hook him on Aristotle and he was in the tradition of Bacon and Locke instead Joshua what is the alternative as you see to Newman when it comes to explain the historical fact of the widely developing doctrine of the Church over time from the early Church determining whether or not it should admit to the finer points of the it self evident that the truth unfolds over Joshua been following this thread since the beginning for what am one of the ugly mugs from the original article way up who apparently spent last year in I fear this discussion of Newman is not a genuine development from what was contained seminally at the beginning of this that is to we seem to be dangerously close to a and sane intellectual It seems to me that the early Thread Fathers might not I certainly On the contrary Sean the early thread fathers all agreed about everything and had everything figured In they began the submagisterium of this which is a static block of truth that needs to be used to hit everyone here over the until they see things the way I see the early thread st nna yourself right into a doctrine of Divine Quaternity or some mess not a I am not sure if Newman was the first a dangerous but he is certainly the most prominent person to put forward a theory of I obviously earlier scholastics recognized some sort of Such is implicit in the debates about what can constitute if the minor premise is de but the major is from is the conclusion capable of being de Do both premises have to Just Without getting into an argument about the roles of syllogisms in such arguments presume the possibility of discursive reason discovering truth that are de from one or more premises already known de And as such a growth in understand and We can say more particular truths are contained in more universal and if you want the more universal ideas would become seminal Now this is just off the so take it with a grain of But does it not seem that rejection of syllogistic reasoning as giving mere universals alone truths more universal containing make the question of development something that required a book to try and defend and try and avoid something like evolution of If you hold the ability to have universals and reason with certitude from them to other the problem largely While admitting that the historical process was and not necessarily accomplished without a bunch of groping and he first developmentalist in the Newman sense was probably who was countered by the Protestant Bishop Bull was congratulated by as I for his Peterson is a His animist writings on the of the have been roundly condemned ed his wickedness the day I met him I have to as a do you see doctrine developing a la y not is the reform of the reform your something nascent in is not really a conversation for this stick to wickedness fair message you some other Catholic I would regard epistemology and developmentalism as a trojan say that Message me privately Well Matthew in the same boat as Joshua since I been following this massive number of but throw in my quote from Newman which he described as might be nominalist but then again The way I would describe that Newman quote and it is quite similar to what analytics such as Gottlob Frege say because predicate logic involves not However philosopher who accepts set theory and predicate logic be a theory and can be very close to holding an Aristotelian theory of universals depending on what he says about necessity and Peter Geach and GE Anscombe are the best examples of that sort of Anscombe wrote and accepted ALOT of what Aristotle but never herself accepted his theory of the forms in his writings as far as I can why she necessarily think of the soul as the form of the and wrote essays like of the arguing that when we die we could be resurrected without anything like potential intellect It was backup plan just in case the nominalists were correct about A majority of orthodox Catholic theologians during the middle ages WERE historical fact see John As for I read in a biography about him that after becoming Catholic he went to Rome seeking the Thomists out to learn from but the Thomism he found literally was a shambles of a school at the time was before Aeterni of So I think Newman really was coming out of a different education than we Thomists are used and was trying to figure things out without the intellectual resources we can now rely on glad to hear that was always my assumption until reading that quote just Joshua out there in is there any more proof that you could present to justify your claim that Newman rejected e from Newman basically describes what goes on at So what again were all these ten jillion comments st a sort of substitution of prudence and imagination for and impressions for clear That make him much of anything except a Romantic argued we have come to this at reason for him isnt But it is for y they ignore distinctions at Christendom I agree that Newman is not so Peregrine but the thread that never ends will allow us to continue that in a We all need to look at what JA Escalante just said as regards the Newman quote you quoted approvingly tell us a bit more about how and why you think it describe because it sure seems like it is Newman defending TAC against you and your But this too quick dismissal of Newman also needs to be Thank God this thread is outside of At some point you need to explain to us why your Newman quote contradict what said all because it seems it as in the moon I heard the never read I knew he did a lot of working with the history of sense he would have something like a development I refrained from calling Newman a or his theory But I will not refrain from calling as his views are in the Grammar of as so obviously nominalist that it boggles the mind how anyone can miss Or how he mocks the very form of reasoning used by Aristotle and Aquinas Quoting from the same place wish to will be found to reduce the force of the inferential method from demonstration to the mere determination of the whereas I have already Inference starts with as starting with here are two reasons when employed upon questions of it can only conclude because its premisses are not and because its conclusions are and not in like manner as regards John and when compared with one each is and nothing regarded the two may fairly be said to have something in that abstract sameness which does not exist at yet strictly they have nothing in for each of them has a vested interest in all that he himself units come and universals let universals minister to not units be sacrificed to and Robert are individual We may find some kind of common measure between and we may give it the name of man as the typical the We are justified in so and in investing it with general and bestowing on it what we consider a But we think we may go on to impose our definition on the whole and to every member of to the thousand and Roberts who are found in each of them is what he in spite of Not any one of them is as or coincides with the Another John is not necessarily because men are for he may be an because is a being of does the second Richard for he may be a because is made for must we therefore go on to deny that the second Robert is a gipsy or a as he is found to There is no such thing as stereotyped it must ever be a bodiless because the concrete units from which it is formed are independent General laws are not inviolable much less are they necessary as a men are and there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular but we must know him to be sure of Newman is clear that he is rejecting the very Organon of as far as in the It only touches the and he is very dismissive of He even calls the universal the of the using Elias as a counterexample to men are Denis SJ from an unpublished paper of If abstract what nominalits call from are realists would therefore they are what is the for What does the mind see when it contemplates this it if is it one of the Platonic everlasting ideas external to if can it be any thing at and are we not driven to agreement with the school of Locke and sensible I dare say there is some simple refutation at once of the following which has this only that I have held it these forty years on the other hand I am so little versed in the Ido not allow the existence of these abstract ideas corresponding to objective realities with I do not pass over the experiences gained from the phenomena of mind so as I fancy the school of Locke is apt to And more from the things in the exterior world are unit and and are nothing but the mind not only contemplates those unit as they but has the by an act of of bringing before it abstractions and which have no no out of Now there are in which one or both of the terms are common as standing for what is and such as is an some men are an Apostle is a creation of a line is length without to err is to forgive These I shall call notional and the apprehension with which we infer or assent to And there are other which are composed of singular and of which the terms stand for things external to unit and as was the father of earth goes round the Apostles first preached to the and these I shall call real and their apprehension There are then two kinds of apprehension or interpretation to which propositions may be notional and chap And it take long to see he disparages That is even a common complaint among some of his I wonder if nominalism is a sufficient structure to study and comment on Though the nominalist would probably view history as some sort of master since the well educated historian could make the best That being history does not have only so a approach to history might be a sufficient This occurs to me about The right context for theology is a prayer The only one suited to judge about prayer life is a confessor or spiritual or a school that teaches theology must only make a prayer life A prayer of has its pinnacle in Holy As it would include the fulness of liturgical observance with the Divine This perhaps sheds light on a discussion we had above Matthew I do not say when we discussed the lay Insofar as there is a valid and healthy prayer life possible for a and insofar as there is truly a domestic then it is possible for there to be lay lay theologians cannot obtain to the perfection that religious theologians because of the imperfection of their state in thanks for coming back to this Joshua is right that Newman is not as realist as St but he is certainly not as nominalist as analytic philosophy or I nominate you all to pour a bucket of ice on your heads every time a comment is added to this thanks I almost opened my grammar of assent for the first I think Joshua and James Larson do a sufficient job proving Newman Its obvious in some writings and undetectable in others modernist If someone refutes Larson on Newman i may seriously do some But i have a different question for Christopher or any Were there any notable theologians that an arm chair pope like i might who were Because like Richard Weaver i view them as termites that hollow out faith and reason want to waste clean So what does nominalism have to do his idea of a university and his idea of the development of Christian The idea is vacuous So what does it the only really great piece in it is on elementary education and in light of his nominalism and many imprecise statements most as to he is modernist but one need read Pascendi for that to be Nominalism undermines all i will elaborate if i have read both for class at TAC and later on for my own personal reference a Is it possible that his views on epistemology were inconsistent internally in his Obviously if one is consistently history and experimental science are the only fields of am reminded of the mathematician Gauss saying he wanted to have people on the tops of three mountain sufficiently far to measure the interior angles of a triangle between the three to determine whether geometry is Euclidean or read Pascendi several times over a year and I am in need of a I have a terrible It is packed and applying it takes The modernist heresy therein is the GOAT in the history of the Church I have no doubt and if any they get or reject Pasceni imo and influence is It certainly leads to apostasy step by step and so many in little or great ways are unknowingly caught up in do not condemn Newman the to be He was suspect in his day and Cardinal argued against I rely a lot on James Larson but will do my own work if he be because the arguments are the lever imo to move all that I think any of the nominalist are They use or use logic as it suits If all ideas are as empty as they they think then nominalism itself is highly improbable as an Bacon is most In the preface to one of his works he openly admits profound skepticism but declares that he will unlike the skeptics of be a sophist in the old negative at least he is He also slips in and out of the old method of argument as he list in Novum Organon which obviously is nothing but a replacement for As to consistency Pius X points out the modernist have almost a double mind so too they have a double truth And shift from writing as to writing as one of Or in the case of they assent to it but I cannot understand how they assent God Tis a Returning to the of they are simply a collection of and I was never much impressed with In them he actually outlines the modern The only piece on Elementary was obviously never a lecture but a very clever In some of the wrong methods of learning in century are the stagnant English method of Latin which the Jesuits traditionally taught orally easier to At the same time it is a very good and thought provoking showing the need to balance and receive DIRECTION from a tutor apropos to the earlier beginnings of a discussion on One the Jesuits were famous for conducting their classes in a delightful way such that the students so interested learned the most difficult things almost I wish I knew how they did Waugh points it out Thomas Hughes wrote the only book in English detailing their course and giving some insight to what they Peregrine might be interested to learn that Ignatius himself thought rhetoric was the only part of the course NEVER to be literature for THREE years to ease he should also note that they excised the more salacious and saltry parts of texts like parts of Book II of the gotta run late did you read the text to which Pater Edmund There is a strong argument against his being a nominalist I have kept hearing that there are several texts and places of Pascendi that condemn but this more and more starting to sound like something made there is only slander being was suspect in his and so said he was It seems that Joshua made some arguments for Newman being a I would be interested to see his response to Pater What is I suggested above that one engaging in an historical or practical might very well come off as a one should be wary of guy had bad or weak therefore he is a We go that route for many One of which is that such an approach robs Pascendi of its Maybe it is time to go to the chapel and pray for Then maybe his perhaps with greater charity and sobriety of the Apparently Ignatius teach the fullness of sacred theology in accordance with the magisterium Not that secondary sources count for much around but in History of Philosophy Volume VIII he suggests that approach is more along phenomenological In summarizing approach to the assent of faith he says must distinguish between two types of Assent given to a proposition apprehended as as concerned with abstract ideas or universal is notional while that which is given to propositions apprehended as as concerned directly with things or is real Now Newman takes it that things and whether objects of actual experience or preented imaginatively in strike the mind much more forcibly and vividly than do abstract apprehension therefore is than because which are its are confessedly more impressive and effective than which are the object of notional Experiences and their images strike and occupy the as abstractions and their combinations so according to all assent is alike in being acts of assent elicited more heartily and when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its than when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its than when they are made in favour of notions and with a notional real though it does not necessarily affect tends to do so in a way in which purely notional assent does Real assent is also called belief by quotes are taken from the Grammar of He never really gets to the point of calling a member of any philosophical school in The asterisked part indicates the main section in this passage that I underlined when I read Side is phenomenology a secret cover for because now I think there is a very distinct difference between nominalism Newman may or may not have I think Kenz did some good work with and But I think it is pretty clear from a study of Brittish Empiricists that the separation into and leads directly to so maybe he a but he could see it from his I speak for but obviously PB is there a certain list of texts you have in mind for I have the impression that it is basically church and the Catechism but I might be also you may have posted a list earlier that I Also for what you mean by structure my closest guess is I am just telling you what my basic impression of your ideas you can give a yea or nay and explain In I think outline is consonant with own qualifications in De Doctrina I consider myself spoken I am liking you more and by the Rather than unpacking what Newman is known for and examining giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand what he and then weighing and trying to understand why so many of good might tout and study and say they learn from Note how we are now leaping to write him off based on where he says things that oppose a body of thought we identify This is the hermeneutic of It is worth noting that he receive a Thomistic education his fault things had but this answer the question it might be of but it might glad been brought out and it very much worth noting but it is not a not known and praised and read for his The idea that phenomenology is is just absurd to my The long line of people who came out of Husserl They were trying to save the world from positivism and historicism for it does seem worthwhile to argue that philosophy was not a damning impediment to his theological specifically with regard to I am still interested in Joshua response to Pater Daniel your accusation is thoroughly Not a quote in this thread from that has not been shown to be or is evidently linked James I expect any here to refute but his criticism is I have read a deal of Newman with great name is And you argue like a Me too and also I am interested in response to kinds of development that Nina Rachele brought Please lay things out text is lemme get this Newman known or read for his but we have to read this idea of development of doctrine seems pretty Which is Or is it more historical in the sense of Historicist is epistemological or discuss his epistemology which is the heart and root of the As to that is a summary and I disagree with Notional assent is more certain than assent to the world of evidence of his nominalism As to Pater I read I thought the whole but maybe start with what he says about development and then tie that his episteme if I was against Kenz did a bit of that tie so it quite But anyone for is going to say who gives a crap about what he thought about universals if you read the rest of his writings he was stuck with crappy episteme and the rest of his work really rely on This is the thread that never It goes on and on my Some people started not knowing what it and keep on posting forever just because this is thread that never it just goes on and on so saying baptize his works like Thomas did to I Matthew Miller To both so put all the nominations that have been posted so far into a google And set it so it can be edited by anyone who has the Please complete titles years and add nominations under the correct But if you add a nomination mention hear on the thread as Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume Google Docs So every response made is merely I think you hardly read half of my  Will you oh sir sigh a return above and show me how or how not quote of understanding of metaphysical development is not tried to be fair as well as but I am quite concerned as other better thinkers than I about the nominalist Maybe it I would just like to see an THen best begin and not hurl insults are you really and going to make us scroll the way up to the quote on My eternal return of the same circle only goes Nina Rachele metaphysical I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea and terminate in its exact and complete delineation in the sacred provinces of the mind may be employed in developing the solemn which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning pg section My as to his as he states it thus he just say development It seems a misuse of the term if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by He seems to be mystifying what should be straight But is this all that Newman for going to have me look You say that this is Re Rebecca Loop come back and give her thesis Exemplary Causality in the First as a lecture to the A version of it was published in The Aquinas Review Anyone have a copy of that is an interesting point you how when was It is not clear to me what he means by he says analysis of the idea which to me would be In this he says I am not sure that we should put too much weight on that as an exhaustive thesis was the only one of which aware that was awarded by TAC a higher honor than double publication in in house Caldwell High School The basic question right now is whether nominalism we can call it negates the legitimacy of his thesis on metaphysical developments in Christian Is that It does require reading more of what Newman I thought that commentary was pretty most familiar with indeed what does that mean given his notions of of a He was acclaimed the great orator of his but is unimpressive not just my judgment but others better than I who even agree with his development and stand on no Nina just that every quote of Newman in the last does not stand up to waited too long to post So what are the requirements re Double The comments in Pater I illuminating on just how concerning nominalism or near nominalism or confusion Universals ought to I find it very comforting that Newman apparently said things like is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an if would have been fully able to answer and would have With that no Newman scholar so sit back and listen to my I am not ready to condemn Newman as a It is not clear to me how clear he was on philosophy at And I am ready to lift mine if someone show a good argument to the I just see that Newman opened a can of still trying to find Pater no special they just have to be really To be not condemning He appears to be at least close to nominalism at but no Newman or anything scholar John the link Apologia and the Drama of Faith and Reason Scribd is the largest social reading and publishing I respect sacred cows of the present Countless old doctors of the Church are treated like not even spitting Double D would be the imagine at least distinction for the written they used to give theses letter I recall Kolbeck telling me he changed that to while he was but you must respect sacred Nostra What is the question we are currently if what I stated above is not the Unless we have just gone straight into talking about thought generally which I admit I am not qualified to Whether one must respect sacred Nina We are each of us talking about our own pet as our minds each flit from one to the Discourse and dialogue were right out almost from the It seems that one should not respect sacred for as the philosopher Ryan I include your thesis on why my thesis is So I guess another no What can I old habits die see you and I got that doc downloaded this Maybe I read a different Mine was a double D in defense of Beauty that was what I took to be Thomas wrapped at start and end with winged The goal was to seriously defend Beauty as without falling into the sort of aesthetic flummery that is increasing prevalent today could see it already present and coming on and without being a rationalist Gustin said it was the best thesis she ever read of for many people this was the equivalent to a I blame Pater he totally derailed this convo Ferris Day Off Go Home Ending Ferris Day Off Movie Go Home Ending we were about to put Newman on the and then Pater Edmund has to go and collect a list of things that go on the Pope Perescott But actually the one Joel cited was Unwritten Tradition Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the indispensable pdf of I was struck by how often they use some variation on To be Pater my thesis has borne up less well than past me thought it Also to be your thesis was written to prove me rather than vice as I recall Tim what was your thesis Would it be textbook based or a selection of primary was called but different links the or or Magisterium cathedrae Would the primary sources be presented in their with one author studied at a or would multiple authors be presented on a single Not worth a discussion until this thread hits at least still holding out hope for but I would like an answer as to which talking Distinguo distinguo distinguo enture Principally the data presented by the extraordinary This is really necessary for subsequent theological inquiry in the areas of faith and and the examination of parts of the the principle writing of the doctors through the and to This is not that what if the extraordinary magisterium tells us to study the Magisterium cathedrae by extraordinary you mean church Is that at page and looking for the pertinant point you owe me a decade of the rosary for slogging through your reasonable summary of the last years of The question of of is what development of and not whether or not it happens from a human point of or whether or not it happens in extremely messy ways and to radical often in reaction to vehement disagreements regarding specific We need Newman or other names to discuss how doctrine enture Then we would have to do I caught that red newman is on His books must burn i But investigating We can say what it is there you go all irresponsibly thinking you can determine if doctrine develops or enture I think what we are trying to do here is help the student develop a theological habit of This involves assent to stuff we cannot know by And also a sense of how the Church examines these issues as part of a certainly in light of Scripture and and how She comes to make true statements worthy of There is a theology at work and students in a four year Catholic college can be introduced to it in a way that is good in itself and also lays the groundwork for future studies in Yeah do that How are definitions that Nina Rachele posted First of idea of metaphysical development seems to lack any PB Would your objections to the TAC curriculum be removed if all of the major councils were Or is your real objection to the seminar method  He wants the no seminar enture I have no objection to the seminar It is the There are major doctrines of the They came from Students need to get a sense of how they came to be in the of the so to and the reasonability of and the theological process of mind that underscores things worthy of This is not a philosophical habit of which TAC is really good This is different than and this requires a special Certainly some of the councils would be but the main thing are the theological principles which came from the and Sacred and how the Church and Her principle theologians have supported those in their thinking over the enture that is a complete misrepresentation of my I am puzzled and a bit shocked by your It is not Please see my comment immediately Adding my Lucy thesis on the Perescott seems to be saying a whole bunch of nothing a snip from John polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian this crucial respect of finality the curriculum at some Catholic colleges is superior to the older secular programs they are modeled but even so it would be wise for the Thomist philosophers among them to recall the Scholastic dictum that means must be proportionate to The seminar as a means of learning purports to be a dialectic process derived from the Socratic Even if this were a glance at text proves and even if there were students prepared for such a a glance at their reading habits proves but even if there were such a dialectic and such without the formal lecture and professors who draw not just the questions but the right answers these seminars slide down into in which the strongest bull or the most artful dodger and if such sessions become they result in arrogant which is where Academy Students need systematic exposition of ideas and daily practice of logical disputation under the controlled conditions of real without years of training in and in morals and which used to be supplied by Christian homes and the exchange of opinion in Great Books seminars encourages the very sophistry Socrates gave his life to The student learns a critical method with which to demolish the ideas of others without having grasped any reality in the ideas at all and worst of if he has failed in the meantime to master his appetites and he is sensuous or such critical weapons he is well on his way to Vanity where you get a and The ancients distinguished four degrees of the where truths are grasped intuitively as when you trust the where we are persuaded by but without conclusive admitting that we might be as when we vote for a political next the dialectical mode in which we conclude to one of two opposing arguments beyond a reasonable with the kind of evidence sufficient for conviction in a law court or in a laboratory testing to certify a drug for human and in the scientific in the ancient and not the modern sense which is dialectical and but science as reach to absolute certitude as when we know the whole is greater than the that motion presupposes agency or know obvious facts such as Cuba is an island because we sailed around Each of these degrees has its appropriate memorization and imaginative precept and scholastic disputation and laboratory systematic But where does come it on the list at and not because the ancients think of but because they rejected enture The Catholic college needs to be positive in its understanding of the principle theological teachings of the Catholic and the theological basis of the The Catholic college cannot stand only on a metaphysical examination of the The best way to study theology is the Socratic method because the development of doctrine is principally a But the principle teachings of Faith must be presented in a positive way in a Catholic This is necessary not only for but also absolutely necessary for the theological inquiry and Is there an online copy of the whole of polemic contra enture You guys are really a bunch of arrogant It is necessary for the Catholic college to understand the theological basis of what we This is a theological not a philosophical You do not seem to be capable of even understanding If you think logically how are you going to get all that greatness out of the Especially the newer ones which are not written as that how we have people using a document to support their position when their position is torn apart two paragraphs later in the same enture TAC is in I will let you pigs figure it What a In an idealized theological course of would every class cover a different doctrine and its Or for would a council be and then say the full works of three or four theologians of the time who supported assuming each class is still taught under the seminar method the Magisterium and The lights of Faith and Reason On August I provoked a very long thread that started with this quote from a Scott critical of all I have been told on this it seems to me that what the Chur Richard Delahide Ferrier  I think because not friends with enture tired of your arrogant silly idiotic So many TACers are Lauren and your comments are Maintain the logical Present Faith or lose it and your not friends with Dr not All been doing is asking I never had him as a tutor I had him for an once Joel no free but on I have refused to engage O Foolish but you cross the line when you insult Go If you were here I would punch And I am really good at PB if you have just been describing one particular then just go ahead and send me a you need to waste your time with an enture no such thing as an ideal theological Are you actually asking if only one doctrine would be covered per class in an undergraduate theology Is this a serious You keep saying but practically what would those things look like at a Catholic I think all we are asking I assumed we were discussing what the ideal theological course was and why TAC did not look like that I would not waste your He is not interested in real I enture I do think I have been wasting my time discussing this with More places where this has been gone over in detail Richard Delahide Ferrier From a TAC and Christendom I would love to see many Like I He is sniveling and On Some Questions About Teaching Richard Delahide Ferrier suggests we go to bed reasonable except that a night and this looks like my chance to jump into a very interesting conversation that I know about b Sean Collins I for my part have learned quite a I can read that one Count your  Wear it like a badge of honour John Just what I was thinking And those other places will witness to my patience and forbearance with regard to the As I said I will always be grateful to the Peregrine for provoking these Can we get back to Newman  Pater Edmund is dragging up old memories there with the Ferrier But we had some good discoveries even Befriend Richard Delahide Ferrier all and read that note and the enture Does anyone agree with me that an inquiry of sacred theology is different than a metaphysical Does anyone agree that a theological inquiry relates intrinsically to what the Church promulgates as worthy of Does anyone agree with me that this is not mere Does anyone agree that Catholic theology in a Catholic college should include does anyone maintain that TAC does explain no more Pater credibility is His initial questions are interesting and It is the that is the enture In a Catholic when you teach you need a positive presentation of the doctrines of the and the theological basis of these doctrines or This is how theology is taught in most Catholic You could do this easily at in This is not advocacy against the seminar or for Do you see Is this of for In I think Scott has burdens and crosses to bear and as such cannot be treated as one would treat a man sound of mind and body who acted Pater Edmund thank you for linking that Ferrier it is very interesting so enture a Best of luck to you arrogant Catholics from I love how barely making it through the program lumps me with all the brilliant minds that came out of How long do you have to attend for this label to be this is not a serious but merely a enture Your arrogance is proof of your lack of theological enture Brilliant Though I do enjoy poking I mean to insult with my last I too am grateful to Scott for provoking the original though he be quite so in my Still I dont think dialogue is possible at this not when insults fly quite so But dialogue is hardly the point of the is Waldstein came to mind when I made that I still have honest questions about what and and Help me out Perescottgrinebonawienventureburg Need to get ready for I expect plenty of new insights about Newman when I get back at I call it except I always come back to the same I need to know what sort of inquiry and basis is in order that I can honestly answer the best of my whatever the hell Scott is talking hottest thread is This thread has it pseudonymous trolls demanding fake thesis Newman collections of real hipster rad and neo Stefon reverse but there should be some mention of midgets doing something unseemly but not that human fanny that thing of where a midget hangs around your waist and you keep your passport in his that where you get a midget to follow you around and shout abuse about how you follow the true Thank you the rebuke I fell into the trap of taking a troll Anne Schniederjan I know what this thread Jay Ferguson Thunder Island a song of i like made video because was no good studio version on video the sad thing is that he brings up things worth talking then spins in circles before the insults come At TAC we learned the proper order of Insult enture TAC is a heresy It is named after Saint Thomas and claims to teach under the but is confused about sacred how you teach if you should teach what it and what It replaces metaphysics and natural theology with sacred and its alum teach things like reason enlightens This is formal and material I wish you would be more and less is a heresy quote of the A lot of the class of wrote on Contemplation this I notice that at Andrews is a heresy Just because everyone discovers in Sophomore year that they are pouring a bucket of ice on my own head just for that quote This conversation thread is making my head probably because every time I see it there are around additional Not sure but is a heresy just made me laugh so hard I And my last frivolous comment for The only questionable comment I can recall was the blue book stating that graduating from the college was a sign of Hardly qualifies the college as a heresy I have to thank Christendom Erin visited there when she was in high if TAC is a heresy why am i alone Heresy open Heresy tapas heresy salad bar What does it say about our moral sense that the only thesis on ethics in the proposed theses doc is about and not contra torture just to make things a Muslim college in California inspired by in The founders are big fans of And the name is not The Averroist  Is the a quote from the Blue is this a new Weiss TAC grads create longer threads than FUS grads But the FUS threads are Catherine In one discusses a It is not a setting for the presentation of someone elses A tutorial would be closer to the setting for the kind of thing you are I am a not a TAC so I know exactly what they do but if it is anything like even in tutorial there is a spirit of The texts would still be not a and students would still be wrestling with the words of the I would imagine that there would be some guidance from the which might at times include information about how various understandings of a work fit with Why you just accept that different schools have different goals and and choose to prefer the one you without haunting the threads of alumni of another I finisned mostly fine piece and the chapter on illative Lots to say Actually I think TAC is mixed on the torture and probably most It is mixed about America as of many at TAC think the Ethics are and compared to the more difficult and noble and important and lofty natural philosophy and It would be out to do a thesis on many of these seem at hope it Ethics is Well actually I think it was just more intuitive than motion for Unlike some of you I have a In response to Pater I started reading your and was quickly disappointed in the shallowness of Top of of things is not caused by their ideal but by contemplating the or abstracting universals from it is in a on And where on earth is that in no In that is rejected quite expressly by He quotes from one of the same passages I but leaves out what he says about such I would certainly not call Newman the most radical Any barely coherent nominalist epistemology has to have some version of a correspondence But what is clear is that the for can only give us about concrete But he is interested in so these whatever role they may become irrelevant in knowing He is extremely clear about That is not And it sure as heck is not The Grammar of Assent is relentlessly Aristotelian from start to I am but the more I the more I find there to be no just Newman is not a Platonist because he waxed And because he avers to so So did some of the greatest nominalists such of The only mention of universals in the Grammar I again already Where he mocks as up middle and proceeds to dismiss the search for since that is not about the but the the concrete facts is all he cares but the And there is only one other outside of unpublished notes which I post parts of one that show he had to his credit by his own understanding the whole That is in a comment following this one are we back to very difficult question arises whether the subject of ideas comes directly into the province of Or in other whether names or terms stand for ideas or for It will be said that ideas and things go and therefore the question is unimportant but there is the case in which there or is an idea without a that the case of Accordingly those then on the side of Things against say that there are not universal and a controversy ensues which is nothing else than a portion of the old scholastic between the and Actually I tire of typing it I will in this passage he does say that he tends to agree with the Catholics in holding but the onus of proof is on them and then he gives some lengthy unclear and ends in saying that there are two types of His examples are all about taking that question Caesar refers to the thing or the it certainly does seem more simple and natural to say the words stand for the Heck he seems not to grasp what is meant by in phrasing the question as he does a refers to the man or the idea of He ends arguing that it refers to the Unless it is His examples of abstract versus ratio pura universals are is a rational and whole is greater than the The latter is the only he accepts for and his examples are all The only gives about concrete We might recall that for Aquinas the universal is something that is attached to the essence as it exists in the as an image with a likeness to many You could say Newman holds the same about his ideas corresponding to but where it becomes nominalist is that it becomes a mere not a universal which is why we cannot know that Socrates is mortal just because he is a man and man is We have to know the That is where real knowledge is for Lecture on after less than a full night sleep and then a long day of I see Lendman asked for my response to Pater So I obliged in spite of the intervening That I will go back and read more carefully the linked lest I too readily dismissed I should have the time to do that sometime in too much to only read and what seemed as assertions might substantiated I have a number of observations about Pater thesis a worthwhile In my thesis that nominalism invites he seems to only when he enters into epitstemology and development of doctrine that I start to I second comment about Just because Newman claims to be Aristotelian make it that would mean Ayn Rand is Aristotelian There is a mistake in interpretation of Newman on in the confused notion of real notional The apprehension is notional when reading the real He may change it Suffice it to say that the contradictions apparent in statements from Newman in quotes by Pater Edmund of finally led me to open his Grammar of which seems so Instead of begin at the I tried finding some distinctions at first in chapter but was so confused by the apparent absurdity of distinctions that I read Maritain assures the reader that the book is about coming to grips with assent to the truths of the Faith and that most interpretations are I then proceeded to look at chapter nine to try and figure out what illative sense might What is clear beyond doubt is that his is a very precisely crafted esoteric and I recommend a careful reading of chapter nine on illative Now that I see what he is doing in that chapter the rest will be The chapter itself really almost stands entirely on its What is strange is that he really define illative sense why I had so much trouble trying to find definitions and distinctions until the second last page and the last sentence is quite a been There be dark waters If he be it is in an esoteric sense In the chapter he rejects the logic both subtly and He delineates also a very hard core nominalism la wherefore the word To be honest it was more the tediousness of the work than any position he took that turned me off from read it before going to TAC found it so I decided to read Aristotle and found him crystal clear in gave me a leg up when I later went to Ruplinger has more patience than I to be digging back into the text that No I actually cracked the book several times before and just closed I have thought I should probably look at it some time and this was the final to me is a bit I can say a lot about if anyone is I certainly mined everything but Newman has a reason for everything he just a matter of unraveling all the apparent contradictions and figuring out what getting can give some whopper But begin with what illative sense or something more deliberative That seems to be the ultimate source of illative sense as they are founded upon this In fact illative sense seems to me to be logic as he denigrates HIs last sentence is in all these delicate questions there is constant call for the exercise of the Illative Rereading it one realizes that he is uses is his own specially illative sense in describing aspects of illative sense at the end of section To be Illative Sense seems to be but especially the grasping of our assumptions and how we come by them secondarily and in HIS does he refer to demonstration which he restricts to elements of mathematical His third section is pretty devastating it seems merely to tell the to any ability for All reasoning is profoundly solopsic so he says The first section on of illative as it turns out is own Man is his own idiosyncratic and none Thus sanction is the of Nothing outside He begins in almost Cartesian But let the reader decide for himself what Newman This section proceeds strangely with several apparent contradictory sentences like to change laws which are identical with it seems that he subtly reasserting Hobbesian nature and Again he says of human is his gift to be the creator of his own and to be emphatically Newman spare here an idle even the first use of So how does such a nominalist expect anyone to understand especially when Newman by the end of the chapter leads us to despair even of the posibility of communication or at least It is More over his statement of man being that another act of illative sense which he derides at the Or is the last sentence of the entire chapter what he is using even right But he says to confirm that what is certain is what me myself and I say is is no ultimate test of truth besides the testimony born to truth BY THE MIND And I am not misquoting These seem to be his main he refers to Bacon as own English and later refers several ways and defers to him again and is for it enables us to use eternal principles which we cannot And then a as I take comment on all matters in due measure of proof and are apposite matter for mere And so I take it that proof and assent are merely idle as a kind of relaxing recreation if not overindulged in in To be all speculation is what he is talking about Sections two and three are even more Section two on the NATURE of Illative he spends mostly on phronesis and briefly fine arts but ends outlining on its and its in and the same in all concrete obscure to be I really have little idea what talking in definite some possess it some but not others and in some things but not others but earlier he had a number of things to say about his kind of in by a method of But here elementary principle of that mathematical calculus of modern Here he seems to be introducing HIS own illative sense of the ratiocinating Like he would replace traditional logic with the new But this is never defined by Newman and is only mentioned whereas much of the rest of the time is spent diriding the blind of others it function and there is no test of truth and error in our inferences besides the trustworthiness of the Illative Sense that gives them its it is because I The authority of the test is in MY ASSENT and none else fyi maybe clean this all My notes and outline are considerably pm Pater Edmund my observations on his please And get me I really appreciate what Pater Edmund very Thank you Joshua for obliging thank John for your thorough Your position on Newman is now clear to my and the texts you reference are And just for anyone who might be outside the TAC community and reading this we should make some things Peregrine Bonaventure is a disgruntled who ought not to be directly We are not being but we have all tried to engage him in the past to no good He raises good but or actually engage in coherent or thoughtful TAC is one of the few schools in the world really is and passes on a of and understands what Sacred Theology does not confuse metaphysics and natural theology with sacred it understands that a thorough understanding of the philosophical disciplines enable the mind to more clearly and cogently consider the truths of the as a its alumni do not teach things like enlightens the school as a whole together with the that grace perfects and faith perfects that does not mean that faith supplants we must have well developed and then there as it more nature to be My final direct address to I do apologize for losing my temper with you I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting Your questions are your reasoning is You ought not to insult That is There are those though misunderstanding seek the honest truth about Then there are those though convinced something is abide by the higher law of devotion to the truth when they are there are those though unable to understand someone else who seemingly disagrees with will at least respect the goodness of their These three enable But there is a fourth sort of person assuming the other person is wrong for reasons other than what they say or or even their reasons inaccessible by To these people attempts to argue are not attempts to but to foment enmity against an Scott is such a person on this his only and it is not charity to enable the fomenting of schism by granting it a direct response or entertaining it as a serious If this thread should persist it is in spite of not because of first second by seeks to undermine some I agree with Joshua Kenz on the faults of my Newman my linking it here bordered on All the greater is my admiration for John Ruplinger plowing through the whole I owe you more than a offering Mass for your On the theses volume front added a section for proposals for titles for the whole Proposals so Learning and Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume Google Docs John Ruplinger PM me on the road And a barn dance So til And thanks pater uh this is dangerously close to petering out Perhaps I should say something go ahead and say that with the exception of junior and senior lab at TAC is a It could be structured so much But probably one of like three people who actually care about lab dont I am holding back on my nuclear option should be good for another comments  as it is now is quite good the last two Sophomore year is important at but I had a tutor poorly suited for the and I hated Freshman year Lab is a dreadful waste of time for all Fabre is There I said I loved I found some of those readings to be amongst the most contemplative readings of the whole four Freshman year lab was And really helped with giving people experience of the natural world before moving into Freshman lab is Micky Mouse And we classes of fabre to demonstrate that insects try to defend Freshman year lab If going to be a or a natural or a or really you need to learn from experience the importance of observation and Then when you read Goethe or Harvey or Lavoisier or articles on wave theory or really anyone at all later you know from your own experience that they are basing their theories and work on careful the difference between knowing something and KNOWING just as you can know someone and know your spouse in entirely different You are not stuck in your head with purely intellectual arguments forever and you see the relation between the things of and the theological treatises you are studying when you are forced to go outside to watch bees and ants or trap horrid You are thrilled by seeing Roy Axel Coats pop by your classroom window with a butterfly net and a jar of You overcome whatever fear of arthropods you might have had and realize that the ugliest things of this world are part of the divine Dantean dance of love that moves the Also I know that freshman particularly the understanding of beginning to see that things act for an end rather than being an arbitrary collection of was one key part in the beginning of my conversion a beautiful Catherine I will say that I would respect the course a lot more if we read Darwin instead of relegating him to senior that might be true of some Platonic Idea of freshman I know anyone whose experience was much like that And I came to TAC that kind of thing had a strong background in natural and was much influenced by approach to natural was about fumbling with things and staring out the window and the highlight was when some doofus despite all warnings actually did ingnite or whatever that stuff was My classmates tasted Substance that Pater And I think that was soph  t I think that was the I remember both loving and being bored to tears by Fabre not at the same time or in the same and I agree with the idea of perhaps reading even a selection from Darwin freshman year it makes But I am still grateful for having to slog through scientific articles like the gull mating article and the infrared snake vision since now I can get the gist of some scientific articles without being a trained And it was to catch a living dragonfly and see its huge eyes and watch the light and color go out of them completely when it sadly You understand substantial change much better Lauren points out de even if you have never seen a person or a larger animal die I remember John astonishingly beautiful collection and wishing I chloroformed or frozen all my I also remember being really upset when I found my bug partner had bought his quota of bugs from the TAC insect black That whole section of freshman lab was one of the highlights of the four years I would say that somehow that part of the curriculum also helped in understanding or accepting that some things are knowable as first in And honestly TAC should pay you to use these reveries in the Admissions packets ondering if Substance D gave Pater Edmund superpowers Or perhaps he had brain cells to I have plenty of things to tell the Admissions office and not all so their they warned me I needed more but I was too sanguine or too stubborn to believe just how much more I often said like to start a PTACSD support since seen how many severely depressed people come out of quite figure out The campus policy date until semester Junior advice was and I believe I went along with What they really needed to say was go out to coffee with everyone unless you want worry about marriage and be serious at all at and if rather not go out for coffee then Some of us seem to figure this out on our I have other criticisms Sophomore lab was a huge waste of I had AP chemistry in high so all the in the lab double were just poorly done imitations of what I had already wasting my time with Maybe it should have been slow painful process of learning the history of Chemistry to and that would have been more Neither of the tutors I had for lab were even the slightest bit interested because we all know that matter is continuous and infinitely the point of studying and their which is patently Lab before Physics with Berquist after blah what was it you said to Mr Berquist in that lab not a like that  Regarding it took me a full year to surf my way back to to mention going home to a very loving get me grateful for my experience But I am intrigued by this this thread is really good evidence that your way back to possible they are changing the Lab tutorial now to include more discussion about evolution and I think is all but Einstein is going to be moved to Senior Math was originally Mendel was in seminar when I went They moved him to freshman lab when I was a junior They need to cut the SJC measurement manual out of the program and phlogiston You guys missed the whole like thinking about But Pascal on the weight of the air is  What is the point of the measurement manual phlogiston TAC be TAC without I agree with Catherine about the bug collection and Fabre TAC be TAC without But against doing Darwin Freshman year because one done the Physics and the De Anima This is what I have come to later in life He who I know I but it seems to me that the question about measurement and what it means and how we know things through measures is a central theme that ran throughout the lab tutorials through the no problem reading it and remembering in the context of what you you learned freshman I surf back to I agree You have scientific inquiry a natural without hefty doses of Look at all the the continuation of the thread is a strong argument that sanity is out the It caught fire because of and black and all my messed up but this is the most interesting stuff in the I even begun my more recent critiques of TAC AND the waiting for a I think they should let the Lab program come full circle so that second semester of senior year is Mendel and Darwin and I love Second semester of Freshman year could be Pascal on weight of air they should read Sir James or Heisenberg on the philosophy of science Or Poincare on Science and Method heresy petri dish substance D ptacd troll AKA Pater I think that is the new Or something like Could we all just take a moment and go back to that comment where Catherine said that she agreed with me That way Galilleo could be read second semester of Sophomore which would be Electro magnetism was a big fav of so sad to see it I wish they could go all the way and tackle quatuum They just drastically overhauled a semester of senior or junior science I think senior to deal specifically with evolution and end with Thomas on providence check THIS out at the Sounded like a fantastic set of readings from Darwin on out laying out issues Kaiser was a big part of Just as long as they get rid of the light Also how do you do Einstein without electro Einstein is also all about but unlike freshman measurement reading him is I liked as There just enough do light which is a huge fail They should do Adolf Portmann Freshman year with the and Uexkull If anyone did not get the point of Soph lab you should read this The Mystery of the Periodic Table History Leads the reader on a delightful and absorbing journey through the on the trail of the elements of the Periodic Table as we know them He introduces the young reader to people like Von and many all incredibly diverse in sed to push for To no avail I had Berquist too and everyone fell asleep but I thought Soph lab was Perhaps you could distill it into a shorter basically learning the development of the scientific method in a At Wyoming Catholic College they read of a Lady Tasting no idea what that but it sounds y need botanical drawing in freshman lab and should hire Domiane to teach it Kaiser also designed freshman which could easily be done in reserve  s TAC could also easily read Goethe on the nature and kinds of to great effect Goethe on is a change actually agree I was wiser than I knew when I first said that this was the best FB thread Big Angry people would still think about measurement without the torture of the not GREAT MANUALS against  all admit that Euclid could be taught  supposed to think about precision of measurement accuracy of The more precise you the less accurate you have the potential to BLASPHEMER And sophomore lab semester is the one place we really expirience the scientific t there   Euclid WAS taught Depending on the LOL leave it at that I am now firmly on the side of the Syllabus of which I believe condemns the foul words recently uttered by JA In the empire that I will establish one of these days Calvinists who think that Euclid ought to be taught in any other way than THE will be burned Some tutors were much more contemplative and meditative about Euclid than Certain tutors I have heard made it through far fewer props than and I necessarily think a bad You Although freedom of conscience of a sort is persecution of heresy of this kind is necessary for the common We must race to seize power before this heretical Protestant in order to ensure the promulgation of The How would you teach I now going to go pray sol non occidat super iracundiam his is just Stockholm Syndrome got People who think people should be burned at the stake should be burned at the They got to You discovered wherein they got to I too was taken captive German sort of Euclid rience was as you know why I expect more revolutionary bravery from you on this point r the Catherine just expressed a cardinal maxim of my political theology I had It was I got to teach it f great exile of Hartmann thesis fwiw I would make it less an exercise in rote and much more one of leisurely construction and contemplation Joel quit being all ecumenical and asking questions I memorize a single And I demonstrated them just Rote memorization is not part of the TAC  neither did Learn the method of Euclid and follow it the record many of my demonstrations were not exactly the same as I learn to demonstrate props until It was then that I realized that it was not about nly be When someone stuck at the I would always ask do you what have we learned most people can figure it out without too much help Michael I too often discovered variations at the the first prop I demonstrated started a because I used different letters than the I used and after JA Escalante you mean true Prussian  But I rarely was allowed to demonstrate anything you were by no means the measure or exemplar for how a typical person should do As I you would often first study props in the minutes before class sophomore and then go to the board and demonstrate them though often with It was watching you that cued me into the fact that I was doing things Peter Fry would do that So amazing and Only he study them at just knocked the table with my knee so the spun bottle would point at some other wretch He would just read the first line and demonstrate them his own Apropos of If one is looking for a best value rye whiskies From rich chocolate cake to a sure to find something to satisfy your sweet tooth this Peter Fry mathematical ability mathematical ability I can personally recommend Whistle Daniel Lendman our sophomore section was so insanely I learned more that year in section than any other As Suddenly I miss Stockholm Syndrome for  I would like to have some kind of TAC Anonymous group to help undergrads know things like How to recognize the symptoms of depression and what to do about What to do when you want to look at another book for at least a What to do when encountering Thomists of a last is a but I think depression is very It could be that people of a melancholic bile tend to gravitate toward JA Escalante sat right next the corner trying to minimize the potential angle of TAC depression is very Is it the Is it the pressure of never getting away from the It is an but very Not quite sure the Brigadoon sense of the an intense geographically and with too much of an unspoken assumption that there really much truth or fellowship in seeking truth to be found outside its Leaving is bound be depressing in that case nestly I was elated to bolt to Berkeley after sophomore year Which is absolutely that there much truth or fellowship It the leaving that depressed one to fall for TAC but even my mind was blown when I met grad students at Cal and they turned out to be just as sharp and readerly as TAC friends Me I was thrilled to though I enjoyed being there in a mixed way everything is I heard a great quote about grad school the other day you forgo current income to forgo future I burnt out senior and was glad to get though sad to leave Though as Daniel Lendman I was hardly a model or exemplar I meant that in the best possible We need to have seminars all over the country With brunch and I have Stockholm Syndrome  the Johnnies do it always struck me as odd that TACers But I think partly because of the TAC myth that the experience happen outside its walls I run into that particular brand of mpant when I was you talked to faculty about grad they would start by shrugging and sighing with a sort of despair Catherine Education Without Credentials Google Docs I can imagine one thing you certainly recreate the experience of having four years to discuss If you have brunch or a it ends too soon and that can be a little that sounds Many programs do something given up hope on TAC per se should do what George does via the James Madison program in cities across the country with Princeton alumni for sheer fundraising proposes but I think there is a lot of room in this space as many people are starving for something like this and not just By doing it regularly like going to a gym or club one can satisfy the appetites over Examples from Clubs in English mining towns to the lyceums in There is no reason we do a bit late on the topic of but one thing that would help Freshman Lab and Sophomore math would be to have a some observations of the basic motions of the heavens over a few The bit of observation we did at the beginning of Sophomore year was a a good chance to think about how measuring works and it would make astronomy a lot more imaginable for a lot of it could even ensure that there would be no future like the Great Kolbeck Ptolemy Final Massacre of JA visiting WCC right dreaming about applying for position and moving to Lander to develop just that kind of y Zepeda said I think Integral Program does a bit better with the observational side of but not quite sure what they Joe do you guys have astronomical observations as part of Freshman year Henry Zepeda most students get that anyways while drinking heavily in the It might be a bit tars are spinning unnaturally in that circumstance  rcumstance Joel mentions In what The neverending threat moves too fast for heavily in the chapter of my autobiography Has this thread won the Internet eginning of in a dark wood drinking I feel so privileged to have played a small role in Do all of us get a check or I believe peregrine gave your name a check on his list of suspected I have i am on the soon to be So When they burn me I hope they use I love the smell of all I need to stop being Unjust excommunication has no merit this enture TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred If you try to plant these seeds across the you will get major blow back from sacred enture How many TAC students does it take to change a light Just but it takes a very long You have to wait till senior then the student can just hold the light bulb over his while the entire Cosmos revolves around enture How many Christendom students does it take to change a light How enture How many Christendom students does it take to change a looking at our lightbulbs Our lightbulbs are just we like just the way they thank you very now why you just go back to where you came How many TACers does it take to change a light It exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred I have a friend who thinks that TAC depression comes from the overabundance of dogmatic and doctrinaire theology found enture Interesting statement from Thomas Aquinas against the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Relying on anotion of Thomas the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original this would be derogatory to the dignity of Thomas Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original but was cleansed from it before her birth from the In the the Franciscans opposed the Dominicans by supporting the At the Council of the Church declared that Mary was not included in the doctrine on original enture Because of and his Aristotelean view of the human soul which contended that ensoulment takes place after and only a rational being could be preserved from sin the Dominicans were the last hold out within the Church in support of the Immaculate In the Pope Pius with support from a vast majority of and shortly after the vision of the Miraculous Medal which reads conceived without the Church promulgated the infallible doctrine of the Immaculate I think this shows the need for assent in sacred think this shows the need for assent in sacred No problem enture how many Christendom students does it take to change a light not really the right question to Chirstendom students allowed to do anything until the Magisterium tells them and that can take enture I think is what Liberals It is They see it as dead and there version of it But in the true we are just talking about first when we talk about and assent to first principles by not because they are to the but by grace and We depart from first principles as we launch into theological in the same way that medieval science departs from self evident first Or we can arrive at through an examination of the theological debate which led to the The Immaculate Conception for I do not see how anyone could see this is doctrinaire or anything other than animated and you still defined what YOU mean by sacred theology enture How many TAC students does it take to change a light I really need to it all becomes clear for you senior enture do you really want a Or are you just Pearls before swine and I can give you a definition that would melt your soul and help you slay but really got to want It You know everything there is to know in the whole universe by senior only been asking you for IDK YEARS to define what the hell talking maybe I exaggerate Liam guessing your dad is I just want to say that senior lab with him was One of my all time he is just so perfectly suited to that kind of I know what changing from that but it would be a shame if they keep Faerie Queen but change senior always remember the class where your dad asked what it means to say the same and I quickly gave what I considered to be a good and he kept picking it apart and then I realized that I really define It was like the time in junior theology when Kolbeck said he fell out of his chair the first time he realized since essence existence are one and the same paraphrasing quite a bit then when we have the beatific God is literally dwelling in our moments like that that I like to relive when I think back to my I had Sean Collins for senior lab as Excellent man for the job junior I knew everything by sophomore year  I was one wise fool Such and enture are you ready for a definition of sacred a definition to set the world on I deliver a promise to not overpromise and enture Right everything is happening at the same Just a I I always through that junior and senior math and science needed major But I also had Gustin for senior which was a disaster may not have been the case had it been just a few years What is covered freshman and sophomore year was But there is a reason Fabre is often sold to fun text maybe through middle Of course you cannot presume that freshman would have covered such basic but I still think of sophmore and freshman year as and the important aspects able to be accomplished much more Senior year needed more And more competent Ours for science was actually The same cannot be said of say junior Frankly after having what sadly devolved to a shouting match with the tutor over what I was bemused the next morning to overhear Ferrier repeating to my tutor the exact same points I if one you end with what is in some aspects less than HS And you only can hope to get infinitesimal calculus Which is woefully way You never even hear And we do a terrible disservice to the hyperbolic geometry of how many in all foolishness tried proving the Or squaring the or giving a Euclidean trisection of the All of which things are not simple but proved to be Heck many students understand what was even meant by when one said there was no way of trisecting the angle with But frankly I liked Freshman and Sophomore year It could be But I found no major fault with The sort of things raised such as incorrect proofs given by Euclid that moderns have found I mind being ignored because many of them may not be book I prop I is listed as a faulty proof by because it assumes without proof that the two circles that really goes to an argument over the nature of not a new Proclus gave that as an example of an error of I had Molly before the and the order was well But I had her for both junior and senior so I speak to any other tutor with deficient knowledge of the I loved but wish we would have read Gauss Or maybe Georg after decline it seems like there much left of that tutorial Does anyone else think a whole semester on the Politics is but please even think about taking time away from the enture Definition of Sacred A define sacred Let us give it a in the same way that the lesser sciences have a in the same way that natural theology or geometry have been given a And what is a definition but a central and how important truth is to just as in the lesser an error is something that is not it is a or an error in But in sacred which deals with higher what is an error in definition but a So let us define sacred theology in such a way as to ensure that every curriculum can adopt it so that it helps the student begin at the right place and proceed in the right how about genus and Can you do how about a at least until the initial proposed definition is I for one am Not to be but As in Ferris haha i had a classmate in highschool who spelled it that fixed do theology as the Magisterium understands theology it is not sufficient merely to calculate how much religion can reasonably be expected of man and to utilize bits and pieces of the Christian tradition Theology is born when the arbitrary judgment of reason encounters a in that we discover something which we have not excogitated ourselves but which has been revealed to Cardinal Joseph The Nature and Mission of Theology Nina Rachele I think a semester on the politics and ethics is more than needed it is The problem is the way it is the way it is you the or the attitudes toward it of students or I do believe in a full semester on the Attitudes and the framework within which it is Definitely should be seen as vital more in to life as lived by most graduates ever after than much of what student think they value How many people have gone into philosophy to study the and fizzled I know a lot of peeps with a Masters in But we all live with one reason why I think it should be read in along with the other works of political Preferrably in its before we read for I guess the hidden premise in that statement is that I always thought of seminar the most as the class where we trying to connect to life lived outside and after you to think I kind of thought of it that way blocking this undead mess of a be careful about engaging the I am in fact interested in the magisterium topic because been struggling with my own difficulties because I am a TACer for sure on the to accept what it is and what kind of sway it really ought to have over intellectual primarily because I was discussing it with someone over a certain period of My friend pointed out something I heard several times but actually paid attention When a tutor takes the oath of he or she says I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive This is clearly not talking about ex cathedra because intention and pronouncement in a certain formula is clearly required for infallible How is something part of the magisterium when the do not even intend it to be What does the above section of the oath even hard for me to understand how we can have actual intellectual inquiry if we have already decided to submit our minds to things not intended to be taught definitively by very fallible people the pope and the college of bishops not making formulaically infallible I understand not all tutors must take this oath suspect the faculty would but the wording of the oath sounds Oath of Fidelity Thomas Aquinas College In keeping with the commitment to remain faithful to the Magisterium of the and in accordance with canon members of the Thomas Aquinas College faculty take the Oath of Fidelity and make the Profession of printed The CDF in its commentary on that paragraph this paragraph belong all those teachings on faith and morals presented as true or at least as even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgement or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Such teachings an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with those truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous in the case of teachings of the prudential as rash or dangerous and therefore doceri non Even when they do not speak definitively the successors of the Apostles are authentic to divine and Catholic and in the name of Gentium one who hears you hears And what if they contradict prior Especially when it is held by a majority of theologians as The very basis is a document whose authority is not de Who is the judge of whether they contradict prior It silences discussion of the most urgent Why not the oath against Are we not to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current magesterial what is to be held de fide by the That is the One of the very terms in that CDF explanation is What does An ambiguous law is not We are to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current Of Hermeneutic of Again read carefully the Hermeneutic of continuity Can you define the terms used Can a submission of Faith be required of statesments which seem to contradict prior more authoratative teaching AND all discussion of those apparent contradictions be Do you see my Obviously it is necessary to discuss apparent Especially apparent contradictions between teachings that require submission of faith Sanctam for and those that require merely religious submission of will and then we agree How many discussions do we have going on here at the same religious submission assent of faith  cant see off to mass The picture was for Lauren But John assent of faith is strictly speaking only given to truths contained in the deposit of but religious submission can be given to truths in some way connected to that or to prudential decisions of the rulers of the the successors of the The former is an act of the supernatural virtue of the later is an act of the virtue of a part of the virtue of This relates to question as well as Newman and development of doctrine and magesterium and theology at tac and how to When it ends it will be It will never is not strictly wherefore i winked and when the one contradicts the what i see the hermeunetic of continuity as keeping open wide the door to private interpretation of of course fb could continue in heaven and thus it be strictly true The living teaching office of the especially that of the Supreme is the final judge when there is a dispute about seeming but has he so talk was a series of assertions and Ambrose lived in and for he rejoiced in the whole intricate art of it the timing and striking the proper juxtaposition of narrative and the bursts of spontaneous the allusion one would recognize and one would the changes of the the diplomatic the waxing and waning of dictatorships that could happen in an session about a But could it Was most exquisite and exacting of the part of the buried world of About you have to go to the disputes are not aired or hardly enture Sacred A short Sacred theology is the science pertaining to all supernatural truths revealed by God to man in the sacred deposit of the under the authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in Her extraordinary and ordinary It is distinct from natural theology whose object is and and which proceeds by The longer definition of Sacred Theology will be given before fb page turns into a Now I see where you go Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum sed tamquam principia et talis est quam philosophi quae alio nomine metaphysica Alia quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est quae in sacra Scriptura Utraque autem est de his quae sunt separata a materia et motu secundum sed secundum quod dupliciter potest esse aliquid a materia et motu separatum secundum Uno modo quod de ratione ipsius quae separata sit quod nullo modo in materia et motu esse sicut Deus et Angeli dicuntur a materia et motu Alio modo quod non sit de ratione eius quod sit in materia et sed possit esse sine materia et quamvis quandoque inveniatur in materia et Et sic ens et substantia et potentia et actus sunt separata a materia et quia secundum esse a materia et motu non sicut mathematica quae numquam nisi in materia esse quamvis sine materia sensibili possint Theologia ergo philosophica determinat de separatis secundo modo sicut de de separatis autem primo modo sicut de principiis Theologia vero sacrae Scripturae tractat de separatis primo modo sicut de quamvis in ea tractentur aliqua quae sunt in materia et secundum quod requirit rerum divinarum Super Boethium De I dont believe i make a mistake in this Can you be Or is this to I dont think I have denied the distinction though i perhaps i mistake the full scope of I think that response was addressed to you Pater you last I what things have not been judged by the I must respond that in recent no matters of undisputed contraversies have been As it seems we are required to hold with religious assent those that the Church has always taught or those held The very doctrine of whether or how doctrine can change is at Let me ask this To renounce matters that demand the assent of is to renounce Shall I then renounce my to submit to matters that require religious am I not extended some especially in light of Dignitatis Does Nostra Aetate only assume good will in Muslims and even but none in Catholics who in no way reject the Or shall Ecumenism embrace all the former with open arms but her own faithful for unexplained have only derision and the hermeneutic of continuity slams the door on any inquiry that merely happens to find but this is a sly and underhanded trick and I call Because if some of the present teachings that require mere religious assent contradict some teaching that requires by Faith to keep the assent of it a false reasoning that only tries to the constant teaching by making it conform by hermeneutical trick to the To phrase it another way the hermeneutic of continuity demands that there be no indeed it nods in favor to new teaching over established teaching making the latter conform to the In another way I read it as the pope let there be there will be As to scholastic the disputandum And actions bear this For Gheradini took decades before he mildly voiced his well scientificly reasoned He produced no rash judgements what He merely introduced And yet the house that published his work in English is now SHUT Non disputandum And how can you or anyone know what are the contraversies or objections if they be voiced but AS YOU merely say of and discussion be But you sacrifice Faith to current And as to the focus on one point It is What is the Is it or By making these terms the pope has nullified his own For is it Or is it something What does he mean by What Pius X an ambiguous law is not So even it were ever right to correct irreformable dogma to make it continuous with the very decree that mandates this is null for its ambiguity that on only one for other terms too are something while I work on that was not addressed to I kinda but as you know I see that invisibility was the only reason I entered this and now I get out your last comment has made me your thoughts about the hermeneutic of continuity are very I have two It seems to me that the assent of faith does not give way to religious I think of Joan of It seems that the hermeneutic of in order to be authentically cannot in favor of new teaching over established it must see how there is a and reconcile both according to the authority of said that last comment is addressed to there is no But Youknowwho distinguished from metaphysics theology to insofar as natural theology proceeds by So I suppose Sacred theology is All clear here I imply that Pope Benedict played an underhanded It is merely the effect of the words logically and concretely Newman might But Daniel As to the she was never asked to deny an article of Faith and so it does not As to the the problem is that it elevates any statement to level of infallible There is NO WAY to question he falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a This mad clear to me a great number of his Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and This is why he makes such a big deal about to the fulness of Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of but we need to make such a strong distinction We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal Sacred Theology alone treats of God This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Even the even the stuff that can be known by Because it is proceeding according to a higher and starting with God as its formal Are objections to be tossed with the scholastic method as my previous I think you make a good point with regards to the I have seen this with There is a because there are so formal definitions in Vatican II documents to assume that every thing and every word is Is it not ironic that we can question former teachings of the Chruch under the of but we are barred from questioning any current statements how fifty years under religious The only ground for criticizing current teaching the best I should is prior thus the grounds for valid criticism have been Thus while criticizing those who treat Vatican II like Benedict also elevated the same to level of not per but because they cannot be criticized on account of of LG and the requirement of heremeneutic of of renewal hence the nostalgia for one page Yet another almost every peritus has at some time declared discontinuity or even rupture triumphantly or with why we throw Unum Sanctam and Nostra Aetate in a ring and watchem duke it Youknowwho called me a heretic for quoting Unum Sanctam and taking it But I guess what I get for sticking to the wrong supposed to follow the I not the one that defines and or one Matthew might like Libertas bet it all on the former btw I Seems like VII is treated as superdogma by almost no someone mentioned Joan of I was also thinking of Daniel you are on a I still recommend kindness to people even if they are unkind back to but can any one say what it If we changed this thread to the real vii stand we could guarantee its that the problem though not even the magisterium knows what the magisterium actually or Catherine before the Second Renaissance of the thread largely by your I posted this with regards to the You may not have seen final direct address to I do apologize for losing my temper with you I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting Your questions are your reasoning is You ought not to insult That is I just see many saying or acting as if VII was I do see a lot of people on this thread making superdogma out of a tiny fraction of other councils and Papal pronouncements ripped out of context to suit their own present Matthew I wish I grew up in your Vatican was all I heard of growing up and even the Baltimore catechism was thrown out for being Then again usually treated as without actually being understood or sometimes even I also encounter a lot of as not superdogma simply finding an excuse for Those people believe in such a thing as and that is not the fault of The original sin of traddies everywhere is blaming the sudden use of VII as Whatever if the Church was not already as it was no one would have been for the liturgical changes that it obviously did not force on anyone and the masses would have used VII against its not pretend they did In any not superdogma most of the people you are complaining about have read less of VII than They even very familiar with and they truly hold to But their use of VII is similar to the select use of certain Papal pronouncements and encyclicals and councils on the other I In both cases we know the obvious black and white position of the Church via a few mantras ripped out of context to fit the personality and predilections of the proponent in contemporary  You can tell when this thread will be resuscitated when you get notification that someone is your posts from days no the problems surely predate And how can i bring up all the docs of the prior hundred Lots more than a couple One could point to entire corpora of some enture DEFINITION OF SACRED CRITIQUE OF THOMAS AQUINAS COLLEGE Sacred theology is the study of divine It is more than the study of It is the study of what God is saying to Sacred theology proceeds as a from principles first and better to new through study of its first and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the and in the development of the doctrine and In Catholic liberal sacred theology is the highest It begins with Wisdom is a supernatural that makes the soul responsive to assent to divine In Catholic liberal Wisdom does not have a double Wisdom is not also defined as the end of natural theology or Wisdom begins with the fear of the which is an assent to revelation and the deposit of the It is those things which are not revealed by flesh and but by Father in in its Thomas Aquinas College has but stating that it comes through study of the great It even falsely claims that papal encyclicals have asserted that wisdom comes at the end study of the rather from the beginning of the fear of the where it says that encyclicals made it plain that the perennial wisdom was to be studied through the works of the great Thomas Aquinas College seems to admit that its version of Wisdom is incomplete when it says in its charter that or first is also an essential part of liberal because it is necessary for the full development of metaphysics is not necessary for the full development of sacred But assent to divine revelation and this is what is missing in the curriculum at Thomas Aquinas In the few doctrines that Thomas Aquinas College teach in its curriculum are if demonstrative of the role of theological Wisdom and the Magisterium in the development of the As a matter of sacred theology is supported by numerous infallible teachings of the That man has the gift of the sacred science by infusion of that this grace is infused in man prior to an act of free that the vision of God transcends natural that even existence is an object of supernatural not merely and that it is impossible without grace to study the faith and come to the correct It is wholly inadequate for a Catholic college to exclude sacred theology from its especially when it proposes to be the completion of liberal Yet Thomas Aquinas College imposes its version of natural theology into the place of sacred theology when it makes its unfounded claim that completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free In proper the charter of the college is speaking of metaphysics when it uses the word in the preceding It claims then that this type of Catholic education presents education in its This is a false for by its own admission the college admits that it does not present theology in its while again falsely claiming that its version of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of the study of sacred Both of these claims are For sacred theology begins with assent to divinely revealed principles revealed by grace and imparted by The more one the more the contrast And the more clear the underlying  We finally have a definition on the enture In TAC says in its charter that its curriculum and presentation of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of theology as a In the states the exact your barb misses the I dont think i have quoted one i have refered to most and as a but that and the oath as well as its promulgation and Lamentabile Sana are not like Their roar still reechoes and the mere mention causes sneers or knees to Not your typical papal decree of the last no quote of a pre vii for those who see theology is the study of divine It is more than the study of It is the study of what God is saying to Sacred theology proceeds as a from principles first and better to new through study of its first and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the and in the development of the doctrine and I think known others who have treated VII as a super dogma in but it begins to take that appearance when they act dismissive to the previous years of the teachings and No one has ever claimed or Lateran IV or Florence was VII gets that been told VII overrides and nullifies everything that came an obvious impossibility from the Catholic like trying to read Lumen Gentium without having read Mystici Not Simple right way of Interpret the obscure by the not having attended TAC you count those three classes I sat in on about or years I help but because I teach class tomorrow evening and have a dissertation to I need pointless Plus this thread has popped up in my feed every day for the last however long and yada yada I agree that TAC ought to have more education in sacred I think a good though one which is understandably difficult to incorporate into a great books I am not proposing any this last diatribe by Peregrine just at least according to Wisdom is We talk about the wisdom with regard to practical prudence we talk about wisdom as a knowledge of the highest principles of reasoning about matters proportionate to human understanding we talk about wisdom as a gift of the Holy Spirit infused by by which man judges rightly through and we talk about wisdom as a principle of judgment through as the whole who has attained knowledge of highest principles and their application to further knowledge through some study Ia Thomas states repeatedly in the Summa Contra Gentiles that a study of the things of of the works of is useful and in some ways even necessary for understanding the things of faith SCG if there are errors which seem to invalidate the teaching of sacred theology which can be overcome only by a systematic development of in the realm of intellectual is not a metaphysics necessary for the teaching of sacred I hope not butting in too I just hate seeing Thomas enture The definition of sacred theology has been around for hundreds of surprising how anyone could have missed supercouncil status in and my many attempts at rephrasing just how this is done by means of the of But it makes vii the reference point for all discussion as vii indirectly touches all matters of faith directly Perescott of you equivocate on and claim that You only one and misapply that definition to the founders of my is called a straw man enture I mean to leave you all I just wanted to convey the definition of sacred I write any of the errors that are in the Charter of Thomas Aquinas So you really blame me for Thanks and may God bless my is called douchebaggery and no one is more like TLDR I could go paragraph at a time and tell you where but I think Off but appropriate Philosophy Referee Hand Signals The next time presiding over an intense philosophical feel free to use these hand signals to referee Devised by philosophy prof Landon these hand signals were jokingly meant to be used at APA Philosophy enture Est quod Before too much though I want to derail anything in the interesting magisterium I would say obviously TAC is not fulness of liberal or whatever that quote was perhaps admissions office For one not possible in four true that there is a profound and admirable attempt to have students follow a curriculum with elements from the trivium and and then going on to study natural and metaphysical Furthermore not even a pretense that TAC gives a complete education in all the branches of No one there would even claim not supposed to do It may give you an amazing jumpstart read some scripture and a bunch of church but Almost any tutor you speak with will tell you that TAC only tries to be good They say Collins has that we should really cover the same material in years that is attempted to be covered in only no one would Though really you could cover it for or and still not get to the bottom of it If you want to specialize in any of the divine or you better immerse yourself in their pursuit for the rest of your Please correct me if but I think no one at TAC is claiming to teach dogmatic or systematic or even claiming that the way they teach theology is the only way or anything like In and to me this is one of the pluses of they really claim to teach anything at all they give the students access to these amazing and enduring texts from all and basically let them sink or only they remind us that there is truth and Truth that we are all looking and we only have an incomplete piece of that since it is They even have professors who profess to but rather are or travelers maybe further along the same who are asking questions of the students of to goad everyone to keep delving further into greater understanding of And in fact many students are converted this way they go looking for further instruction in the official teachings of the Church RCIA or My classmate was agnostic when she came and she is now baptized Catholic and in many ways a better Catholic than I They most probably are not converted by the humility or charity of its The initial claim the beginning of the was that this was the only school of undergraduates where every single student in the student body was required to read vast sums of Aquinas and That claim does not mean there is not another department in some undergraduate program that reads more Aquinas or Aristotle there might be some school that DOES read though that seems For many people not even a desirable sweet has totally settled the initial But we still have to settle the magisterium That could take a ave but you all have  I step away for a couple of and a thousand new comments show up I have now finished more till always taken submission of intellect and to be a limited kind of saying something like will not contradict authoritative teaching publicly and will be slow to think the especially in matters outside my area of something like I think the first part is important because oftentimes the public who hears you contradict authoritative teachings distinguish the various degrees of authority with which the Church speaks are usually not enough to judge whether you have reasonable grounds for The second part is merely acknowledging the shakiness of human evidence of which see Descartes et sequaces We agree to except when we Protestants agree to except when they close to it means that one owes in trust and loyalty full assent of mind and will to propositions taught with regular authority merely that one owes it to the Church to be to think the informed there are clear criteria for mind and conscience cannot but in which dissent must remain private and the public teaching not openly though prudent questions in principle can be posed depending on the degree of authority which the proposition was and own state in a better way of saying what I was trying to There usually is a better way to say what you are trying to say Edward Langley with the utmost charity and in friendship settling of the initial question has also been tried It answer I think the greatest problem with his critique is his misunderstanding of various meanings and and his misapplication of it you wish I settled ed it in practice will prove to be another sure As Michael already been settled many times But that keep us from trying to reach an infinite number of yes I think we should eventually discuss both and have you studied your Georg Is it or I went to I the program with a huge amount of math study Far too much for TAC pretend to teach theology OR Just the historical development of then what the hell does it pretend to You seem to know History of you suggesting another incarnation of the friendly thread maybe philosophy of mathematics I maybe it does pretend to teach But then I really have gone oh I forgot My cousin is a math person and there was nowhere near enough mathematics for But really the only reason they study mathematics at all is because Plato says in the Republic that mathematics is a necessary preparation for the Or I think he says something like this is unfair they also study mathematics for its own sake and contemplation of the beautiful and all that Of because as Kenz or someone pointed you only get as far as basic high school calculus or something maybe a smattering of archaic but not really the whole point of the only to make us nice little logical thinkers for the sake of which is the handmaid of Which we study like nice little thank allowed to question what it including what the magisterium itself I guess we probably are in the I and as an year old what Self evident to the and all that mathematician does not study pure mathematics because it is he studies it because he delights in it and he delights in it because it is Jules Henri Poincaré stick that in your transcendental pipe and smoke with transcendental tobacco that called maybe in here in the midwest we call it Where in the midwest are We call it in   I was called that I asked Tom Sundaram a legalistic question and answered as the LEGALISM just trying to do my part to get this post to two thousand endental tobacco every time someone says I just think hedonism bot Hedonism Bot Let the Games Begin enture Thomas Aquinas College states in its Charter that the metaphysics it proposes for the development of This is false The contrary is In revelation and assent to divinely revealed truths is what is necessary to the full development of This is what the Church de the college has it completely making it up as you go the one calling it metaphysics defining metaphysics other than enture The college in its defines metaphysics as knowledge of God which is reasoned then states that this kind of knowledge is for the full development of This statement is and contrary to the infallible dogma on supernatural revelation in the order of I am not making this up as I go This is the argument that the college puts And it is a false So what does it matter if someone reads more Aristotle and Thomas than if they are in material The claim making is about the knowledge reasoned to and not the way one gets there can get there by reasoning or by divine And IIRC Thomism that there is a difference between special and general metaphysics De ente et essentia or perhaps the commentary on De Trinitate recall and too lazy to look it The mistake accusing them of would be one only an idiot would enture The claim the college is making is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology which proceeds from This false claim is a material The college defines metaphysics specifically as that science which leads to knowledge of God by natural Then the college says that this metaphysics is NECESSARY for the full development of This is This is This runs counter to the infallible teaching on Metaphysics is no way necessary for the development of sacred theology or for a believer to possess wisdom without On the as the Church revelation is necessary for the perfection of as theology itself there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human This traditionally named or first is also an essential part of liberal because it is necessary for the full development of Aquinas Founding and Governing Liberal Its Parts and the Order Among is being used there in the Newmanian and an obvious If no then no and thus no decisive answer to It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of only that theology to fully articulate itself must use Totally uncontroversial and enture Thomas Aquinas College also employs a hard and heavy interpretation of Doctrine is used at Thomas Aquinas College to support this material heresy that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred This gives the wrong impression of theology and the Doctrine properly understood leads to human The way it is employed at Thomas Aquinas College leads to limitations of being truly what is the point of reading the most Aristotle and Thomas of you get the Faith is a big especially when deriving that conclusion based on an elementary misreading of a very uncontroversial text enture Material heresy is actually pretty remarkable here is that the founders of Thomas Aquinas College actually believed that metaphysics is NECESSARY to the full development of sacred and that you see This is a very basic and contrary to the de fidei teaching on revelation and the relationship between Faith and You keep using I think it means what you think it I have answered you and you simply repeat your assertions without answering my argument or attending my This looking good for your purpose of the required philosophy courses is to assist students in a philosophical understanding of his the nature of the human and certain philosophical errors which influence contemporary thought and with the ultimate aims of providing a philosophical foundation for theological studies and of enabling students to present the Faith more reasonably and Who said  More College acknowledges in its curriculum the essential role played by Thomas Aquinas in Catholic Courses in philosophy and theology are taught according to the and principles of the Common enture Here we see a collapse into an inability to respond seriously to a very straightforward flaw revealed about Thomas Aquinas It teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of This is what the Charter of the college states This claim is a material No one responds to this other than to say it is a wrong and that this pat denial is a precise This is This is what the Charter and this is what the College metaphysics is necessary for sacred This claim is and contrary to what the Church core ordered by Thomistic wisdom within a historical Heresy Theology and Thomist Philosophy play a central g to repost what I wrote Please answer or stop is being used there in the Newmanian and an obvious If no then no and thus no decisive answer to It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of only that theology to fully articulate itself must use Totally uncontroversial and ot a pat that is an argument based on a and you have ignored both  Blue I used to feel shitty about going to cause we even try to pretend like we had rigour and very clever or but this thread has me feeling pretty good about it all things More no he studies not just for the sake of a knowledge of but also because philosophy serves to increase his understanding of the Creator of all He studies each of these disciplines for its own but also uses them in the service of something The Catholic does not destroy or diminish liberal but rather perfects The Catholic free man studies all of the disciplines both for their own sake and in the service of the of the enture the quotation you cite does not appear to be a material TAC in its Charter cited that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of This is The Church teaches de fide the JA you are adding heresy to heresy Metaphysics is not necessary for the full articulation of sacred revelation or and by claiming that metaphysics was necessary to the infallible teaching from you are really showing what you this is And you are beginning to sound completely arrogrant which is a clear effect of your flawed So I will wish you a good night material heresy is and when you claim that metaphysics was necessary for the full articulation of doctrine at you really are in the realm of material  enture This is   gine Nicaea without metaphysical Go for it The idea that theology presuppose philosophy in some way to some extent is Grace presupposes First in the then in the Revelation speaks through what is It speaks via human beings who have reason and live within The study of God ceases to be study for you it ceases to be What you suggest is that somehow theology is own universe no need for a handmaid not for I  Does anyone study St Thomas seriously without studying And St Thomas still hold pride of place among all I see the are the Roots of the Distinction between Theology and Professor Marion explored the supposed conflict between philosophy and theology in light of the present situation of philosophy that of the end enture The doctrine of the Trinity was already very much a part of the sacred liturgy in the Western and Oriental at the time of What I think we see at Nicea is sacred tradition and the Holy Spirit through the Magisterium affirming and also helping to perfect a line of reasonable But to suggest that Nicean doctrine would have been impossible without or that metaphysics was necessary for Nicean doctrine to occur is really  Although I believe Peregrine Scott Wineberg has been calling all of St Thomas Which is just enture Why do you believe  caea defined its doctrine using purely Biblical and on the as a favor to perfected a line of Just on the you Nothing to do with the enture That I have been calling all of Thomas  You have been referring to all that is studied in the theology tutorial as You allow the study of the Summa to be called Am I missing something in the last the traditional Catholic Encyclopedia is nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to it need hardly be derives its conclusions from premises which are and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or At the same it is a human as it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its For it depends on as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific enture The claim that TAC makes is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred No one suggested that understanding metaphysics is not good when you study But that is not the false claim the college is I thought you students understood  Not just good but enture Sam Rocha so while you FUers were speaking in tongues and skipping class in favor of cooing electric koolaid Jesus Peregrine and friends were making sure they swore that Lincoln was an evil man on a bible wrapped in the confederate flag so they would be allowed to receive at Thomas Aquinas  Philosophy provides the language for It more it is required to talk about it most enture the nature of metaphysics determining its nature from sacred theology means that grace perfects The Charter of the college is not sayinbg It is saying the You guys seem to be in  ame it is a human as it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its For it depends on  money quote g had an imprimatur and nihil obstat enture philosophy provided language for The sacred theology of the Church is broader than Sorry they teach you  So we are back to studying St Thomas just  There are encyclicals that address that enture Depending on is not the same thing  Oh enture more about what the Church teaches as sacred not Thomas The Church does enture enture Metaphysics is not necessary for the fulfillment of sacred Revelation This quote reveals the TAC its material enture A plant may depend on But water does not give a plant its enture if you believe that Nicea may have depended on a western that is But if you believe that metaphysics is necessary for what the Church teaches at and in its Councils and in Her infallible and in its and in the sacred theology of the then you are a material This is a false doctrine of Thomas Aquinas And it is simply amazing the founders got this Am I the only person on this thread who is starting to feel a bit enture If you believe in the false doctrine that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of you should feel I stopped trying to follow what you seem to think passes for an argument at triple Now I just wonder if you are a savant or just which might also be mutually Sam beyond A jaded face in Book of But so close to And then what was I Carry carry carry the fuck I saw this thread had speculated how it got that and it would seem I was thread just enture you seem like a really malformed pray for Malformed even begin to tell the But toss some prayers for me when not slaying dragons on the just here for the the howling Why you attend to that last quote JA just you possibly believe your earlier comment did so with any coherence can Nicean formulations without Were the unicorns with you when you came to that enture material heresy revealed in TAC Charter which states that philosophy is necessary for the completion of sacred in other if you want to study sacred you better go to TAC apologists grow Sam my fav  enture I am not a howling Your rhetorical question formulations without simply begs the So can we safely assume we all need real I recommend rock enture are any of you familiar with any of the dogmas on sacred theology and Ummmm at least one accredited institution says I  I really take exception to you accusing the founders of anything when they are not here to defend Did you know it is a sin to assume I would guess another sin to publicly another of a mortal Am I the only one who can imagine Mr Berquist taking argument apart syllable by Dr McArthur would just thump and let him have it all in one blast he bothered to address such ridiculous enture For I think going to a Catholic college that actually teaches what the Church teaches is a great place to So But really Peregrine we just fight about far less ridiculous enture I love your loyalty to the If you were only half as loyal to the Church are Her teachings as you were to a group of extremist  Again the whole of the hierarchy has not only turned a blind eye to the that is know as TAC but it actually endorses and supports We could list the cardinals and My own among And not a Go talk to Dr Long and Waldstein if you want to fight about my theology credentials enture IN A WORLD of material But what giant piece of work are you procrastinating I got this grant to write that rather gargle broken glass than do and this is doing the I begin to imagine what staying away in enture one and about dogmas of the Sorry Thanks siri enture Brian kelly writes those not your will face the hordes of Thomas Aquinas College  I can talk to my bishop He talking through enture and the elephant in the  just ridiculous Scott PB So Matthew what are you avoiding enture Your bishop is not what the Church Ask him is metaphysics is necessary for sacred My wife is reading over the job app I just wrote in political theory and writing notes on a documentary proposal re LA political corruption Stay on The topic is I was just going to do something but I recall and that butter in the freezer needs to thaw but I think watch another Ice Bucket fail  No according to you Scott no one no cardinal but you alone are the voice of the reading Much Ado About I like this wonder that you will still be Signor Nobody marks I doubt I will get the Like a true enture you should study the Faith a bit You would see the falacy behind the statement that rational science is necessary for sacred Sacred theology is but it is necessary for an accurate not the other way This is what the Church teaches enture everyone I have talked who has had any contact with TAC thinks you guys are a breeding ground of all sorts of Did I miss a meeting regarding classical antiquity and I miss that Not this Good chaps at if a bit square and not much fun at the pub thought they think a usually Ok can I call you all mad you This watch a troll INTO SOMETHING NEVER Peregrine THREAD DRAGON Sam you have never seen me in a talk nonsense And damn witty thank you very See what I did come to Berkeley and I will vindicate the TAC pub spirit for you So close to so enture Thomas Aquinas in regards to Faith and teaches the exact opposite of what the Church and your response is been a and that a but best regards to you I think I should play a show down there this letcha But bring a book and a just in File a complaint with Cardinal He spoke there so sure he has the Sam your words ring but they reveal you been drinking with the right First distrust people who graduated in four You need to play We can make this I think they ever had a show there You could play it at Steckle That could what please interpret ALL CAPS as why we write in italics in SOME KIND of metaphysics necessary for Sacred at least in the sense that WE NEED SOME VOCABULARY in order to talk about not saying that Ye Perfect Metaphysics will be in place prior to any work in Sacred and in fact Bonaventure seems quite right that Sacred Theology would perfect we still need some WORDS to use to even begin the the true TACers will bring the book and the They might even toss my contact and send them to my people is two  I guess I know enough of my Faith to be hired to work at the diocesan and parish But my bishop sounds like he falls under definition of I knew I was on to but I see I made a category I still need  Yes Emily We need a ally am a heretic from the RC point of view but I know what the Catholic Church teaches and I know what the TAC Charter says and there is no problem there as I have demonstrated Dude Jody no not damnable if you receive a coherent explanation of Worst case is enture leave you with one parting Go to the and in part VII see where it states that metaphysics is necessary for sacred Then compare this false statement with the dogma on revelation and the sacred by is a Also note the vulgar comments and the sophistry coming from so many TAC Then decide for  at sure we can make before only sophistical when no one is What you is the TAC is actually an acronym for Toots Apes and and its function it to slowly brew minds into leather flower with the little holes in the bottom so excess water can drain are you quoting the lost booklets of I may switch to your side if GEM Anscombe A And Sam Rocha def drink with JA Escalante Will someone please do a statistical analysis of the times that Peregine has said good bye in this enture you have not demonstrated TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred This contradicts the You have falsely claimed that metaphysics was necessary for the full development of doctrine at This is totally false and I liked She has As I was saying I like people with Darn that liberal education enture The TAC Charter also claims that the curriculum places an emphasis on the doctrines of the Church instead of the history of the Does anyone else see a problem maybe stretching things a I will miss this You know I might be Ron MacArthur suggested my propensity for the word indicated as Does that mean Pere and a TAC founder agree on say it so Sam enture Philosophy of Education at Good enture I want to elect bishop the next miss metaphysically then theologically but never biblically Hey his syllabus sounds interesting My syllabus of of  There is a spin off page dedicated to this thread case you missed The Neverending Thread This is a fan page dedicated to Seniors and Thesis a link post and ensuing like this Well Sam those who can But as you are teaching education that by the has just launched a new offensive at based on my subfield and place of enture Is metaphysics necessary to the fulfillment of the philosophy of education at or does it not even depend on  You went to But you have And that is I teach at enture Does UBC mean University Before  outside of So we share a bishop No an M my good you just a decent you ought to come to my show at Regent College this Andrews Thomas Aquinas You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and My eyes have been opened Scotty enture Vancouver is tragically There are no theologians in keep it not going to bed until we hit  So does Peregrine know you or was he stalking you enture No one said you are scum and Just that your founders were who perpetrate material Just sticking my head in here to make sure things totally enture I hope you never stalk That would really be  Again with the recognition of  ah come You gave us more credit than We have become a heretic factory  It is about time Matt showed up enture breeding ground of I just moved but I am already feeling VERY must be the We should probably look at what we mean by It seems to that JA Escalante has already given argument for the necessity of metaphysics in Is water for a I think taking one sense of necessity and thinking it means something not Floridated no It saps your vital  Vancouver is the anchor for the Catholic Church in We are Not But To your You may want to read my short and has A Primer for Philosophy and by Samuel Rocha A Primer for Philosophy and Education is a site promoting an illustrated book written by Sam enture No worries I do not think God holds UBC to the same standards as After they read more Aristotle than  I love how intrepid newcomers actually pop in and say something Thank Thanks I was pretty worried about enture If Vancouver is then you must be a Andrews Well the alum are proficient good to know squeezing heresies in the with all the Relativism works pretty well in enture Oh it even has   Or read the book on education by the to Peregrine Archbishop J Michael The Holy Teaching on Catholic Schools This book clearly explains what our Catholic schools should be and offers you practical advice on how to judge whether they At a conference at Catholic University in the Fall of Archbishop Michael the man responsible for Catholic education around the distilled for enture Just make sure you teach your children the before you turn them back over to enture for the I never called your bishop a not even enture If Relativism works well in Christ works even My children reading Norse and Even Lewis is too soggy a Christian cracker for their Tell that to enture I will pray for your You must teach them Teach them about as a person  you said he support the College Kelly said he You said if he did he is a But he he knows about the He is a lover and student of St And given his jobs prior to this I think he knows a thing or about post secondary education in the Catholic  Sam do you Sort VERY  ah enture not what I I said if he endorsed the that still does not take away from the fact that the college is wrong and in material heresy about Faith and This does not mean he is a and I never said he you silly the short answer yes and enture yes and You must have gone to TAC It sounds better than subjecting your kids to the crap in most schools looking at YA Rarely seldom always  He is only one bishop who has endorsed and supported the There are How can they be so wrong as to support a school based on pray for your I hope it keeps We need enture but you said I said he was a when you knew I did What does that tell enture Who do you pray to Anthony Hopkins gave a sweet talk at That has to count for that this has gone on too darn long To get my grade teaching I had to take a CLASS in YA there was a CLASS devoted to enture have you done the Grouse Sam you pray to Anthony Poor Did you have to read Is he even enture Anthony Hopkins did Did Yeah totes on the webs even they saw that that be on the enture and Does the ball Should auld acquaintance be and never brought to It depends what you mean the term But I be a practicing Roman I pray to the Holy the my dead Cervantes and Francis and so Sir Anthony Hopkins Talks to the Students of Thomas Aquinas College On March students at Thomas Aquinas College were treated to an session with a visitor who is widely considered enture I know they had Catholics at The study of things taught definitively by the The Peregrine Bonaventure I have no idea what the Grouse Grind It had better well past midnight here in you know No they They only have Uh Index Institutorum TAC Thomas Aquinas College TAC  Edward you finally got We could always add UBC  Blue Book that to the enture if Anthony Hopkins talked to the students at that must mean all clear on the central issue of metaphysics and sacred theology What did he talk I also nominate since living  Being a movie star are we going to have problems when we hit  He got bored and took a tour OH enture Blue book And method  at you all have to go to bed  or pray Lovely WE DID GOING FOR where are all these balloons and confetti coming SO Man of the match goes to the indefatigable Peregrine Kool The Gang Celebration Music video by Kool The Gang performing The Island Def Jam Music Group enture Blue Book says metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred Infallible dogma says revelation neccessary for the fulfillment of So anyways I clearly know a thing about sacred theo my profs be but I do love little  You get the balloons and Update your Emily knows how to  Necessary can be said in may Scott get When people say the internet is a waste of this is proof of why they are right and why I  going to was my enture I think you really need to know anything about sacred theo to go to going to pour myself a glass of right after I wash my hands in a Why thank I meant at Ave And way to miss the cultural reference point enture I do get that just that it be said that way in the case of metaphysics and The Church made that clear in the You know what you talk So what do you about sacred I want some really spicy mystical secret dirt now that in the third  Like Gnocchi only not enture Sacred theo is really a poetry A true Fax me one Matthew enture I love Hey totally down with what you said right John of the Cross Gnostic Gnocchi enture Sacred theo is a poetry that melts metaphysics and gets it I disagree with We could start a great Thus solving the liberal arts employment issue I think melting is a weird word Metaphysical Melting Mushrooms all get get No That might send an inadvertent message no party like a metaphysical If you change physical to metaphysical pop music gets awesome I made some Augustinian soul Speaking of which buy Sam music enture I think Marina is a weird It sounds like a place where you park your  And a mermaid who died I think we need the material heretics in Europe to wake up and get us all back on track with their definitive It is or by now after All this celebration is disordering my enture Eliot wrote me a poem I feel like you just changed Nice new Marina also a saint in the Melchite enture enture Catherine do a Vietnamese martyr too But my parents were Protestants so I think they just liked it enture Thanks my UBC enture she the first mermaid every Right Pretty casual here just moved here over a month enture Frome like to try to use words like whence whenever I enture Is UBC really miles enture Can you see West Van from your enture I grew up in West and never told anyone that I live in West Point as West Van as it besides UBC So siting in West enture Back to this metaphysics Does anyone think that necessary means something other than are you related to the Rochas from Oh My dad was born in Are we talking necessity and enture in your capacity as a resident of West Point do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred enture Does it There are many senses of the word enture Not If you want a serious have to explain to me exactly what you mean by all those Particularly and the expressions and enture In what sense is metaphysics necessary for the full development of sacred when the Church teaches that only revelation I more or less think I get what you mean by enture Metaphysics means the rational study of Full development means for it to become a complete Sacred theology means the science of revealed revealed by God as which the Church teaches under its If you do you mean by the metaphysics in God as h actually teach that only revelation is the Protestant The Church teaches that the magisterium is also necessary for the full development of And continuing to dodge the Catholic Encyclopedia helping I care what it I just want to understand what Peregrine means when he uses those enture The way we know something with Either by or by Two different ways of enture shut metaphysics just mean study of first You only sort of unintentionally bump into God in the  I think he was enture science means how we understand something with Metaphysics proceeds with Sacred theology proceeds with revelation and assent by you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred I really to tell you the I have a hard time understanding how your puzzle pieces fit then a Franciscan so not as bright as the enture I was Now shut grine means theology is like an organism which has all the elements and factors of its own unfolding into final form within nothing outside it is This is why he compares it to a poem I might just go strum a shitty tune on my cheap guitar wondering more about on the lines of if faith is imperfect somewhere the knowledge of the thing itself exists ogy is not fact like an nor a poem It strikes that you use the term to describe what many tend to use the term we have a little language game going enture it seems to me it is not because the Church says it is But I can see why TAC says it because it wants to play up the rational side of the because of the ideology of its The trouble the Faith and sacred theology is in no way dependent on but the other way The Church has several doctrines on No big it just explain why TAC grads believe they are so JA go I like They are not very helpful in this sort of lic Encyc says theology as a science upon No one called that heretical I love you like a love song enture Natural theology is We are speaking of natural theology vs sacred Natural theology is not necessary in any sense of the word for the development and fulfillment of sacred unles you are a TAC ideologue teaching But we can know Natural Theology enture the Catholic Encyc does not say Your eye is will you ever address the propositions in the CE  I mean someone I think I still take existence on But I think Mr Berquist knew  So metaphysics nat but you distinguish that from sacred but Perhaps you could link the section ve  DO IT missed keeps dodging it enture Yes we know natural theology by reason for the most but much of it is revealed in sacred This proves that the sacred completes and fulfills the This is what the Church TAC is Well I thought it was just for fools like me who were too thick to get it enture I am not dodging You are misusing the Catholic Encyclopedia to try to confute and you are not would you say that reading the Western Canon in chronological order is Like God knows we all be super brilliant because he give us all the same So he us all have a fighting You know dodging the whole Predest language nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to it need hardly be derives its conclusions from premises which are and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or At the same it is a human as it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its For it depends on as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific Does this thread have its own drinking game But as far as I know metaphysics technically does not have God as its proper enture So metaphysics nat but you distinguish that from sacred but Because sacred theology deals also with things we can only know by faith and plus it reveals some things we can know by Sort of like At the same it is a human as it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its For it depends on enture the proper object of metaphysics is I too saw that but I meant could you put a link so that people could see for enture not talking to you You keep saying that though CATHOLIC Metaphysics That portion of philosophy which treats of the most general and fundamental principles underlying all reality and all knowledge ation to theology enture It can without enture not like psychonalysis at Does a fish depend on water to Can we say water is necessary for its And here I was hoping we could play tell your Although not if it has a crab enture We can say it is necessary for its but not for its the Does metaphysics imply that reason is how we cause not really notion of the enture enture More than it must be the office of one and the same science to consider separate substances and which is the genus of which the separate substances mentioned above are the common and universal For the subject of a science is the genus whose causes and properties we and not the causes themselves of the particular genus because the knowledge of the causes of some genus is the goal to which the investigation of the science Commentary on the Metaphysics of prooemium this is But Plato a saint  the proper object of metaphysics just as Or something like enture Sacred on the other is God speaking to telling man certain mysteries about the enture That is You should read In Attic That is sacred admitted to several meanings of Well also talking to man telling us about God and man enture It would be like sacred if Socrates were enture Are you trying to imply that Socrates was not Being as being is not If it were then Aristotle would not admit to there being separate enture Now the question is metaphysics necessary for God talking to according to the according to this little college in Sam stop being a heretic I help That is But not what you start with in You begin by studying different aspects of being and you only eventually reach God at the very enture Can we all agree that marina was a philosophy is indispensable for theological in fact has always needed and still needs By helping to deepen the revealed Word of with its character of transcendent and universal philosophy avoids stopping at the level of religious It has rightly been observed that crisis of postconciliar theology in large the crisis of philosophical foundations When philosophical foundations are not theology loses its enture but you reason your way Metaphysics is absolutely and not really except in a sneaky Or am I being a Library Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy Library Document Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy On March in the Holy See Press Office a press conference was held to present the Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Participating in the event were Cardinal Zenon enture Thank you again JA for the scintilating metaphysics necessary for God talking to Of course enture No metaphysics is also called natural Because it studies God as regrine keep avoiding the plain sense of and all be persuaded of your profundity Well God is being I mean But that missed the point like it enture I think heretics ask if they are being so I think that means you are not a Do you You may reach God in but I still hold a that God is not the proper in that you set out to prove existence or or not studying God as Well at least someone Pretty sure that logging over a thousand FB comments is a heresy of some enture you study God as God when God tells you something more than what you can know about him by But these heretics are saying that what you know of Him by reason is necessary to the fulfillment of what God tells you about Which is So of all you fine folk I do not have a spouse Whats everyone anything you you know with your I already said and the wife and kids are enture I was in a bar one night talking about metaphysics and how I met my So there is some good in it Is she a enture some things you can only know by Please tell me you used a metaphysics pick up line enture does she enture I used metaphysics as I pick up We have since brought six rational animals into I get the heretics floating reference Well The world must be I think like my I think we agree on the polarity and but perhaps quite see onhow TAC is reversing enture I believe from a movie that was directed and filmed in England by a group of I a nice girl like you doing in a possible world like things you can only know by but I just mean that if you have any reason at you know enture it was more would you like to exist together at my Say we be What enture reason is in but when we know by this is using the word When we know in it is because of reason in used in the primary But this is not what TAC is TAC is saying that unless you reason to God then you cannot really have the fullness of knowing God by This is So in that reason is unless you want to hold that irrational animals have faith No I sat in class with the founders multiple And as far as I know all of them mentioned the old lady who had faith as the one who knew more than the scholar enture In that reason is but that is not the sense that TAC uses the For that would just be saying that man is this is because we are coming to where the terminology or whatever you want to call it is getting in the I say the fault of advertising it throws around the term where it might be TAC is certainly not saying that you cannot know God by faith fully unless you reason to him In no enture I think it is that Same with some other Here it is the word necessary that is the Or enture We should be Catholics alumnists saying that it comes from a misunderstanding of advertising re says that theology is a relation of revelation and It does say that metaphysics is necessary for its full in the sense of doctrinal So does the Catholic and the Decree quoted Thank you JA zzzZZZzzz it many times in the but PB keeps dodging enture the TAC founders were reacting to those whom they felt were not emphasising the rational aspects of the faith So it seems clear the overplayed their when they state that metaphysics is necessary to sacred If you take metaphysics completely you still have sacred If anyone is I had a clear insight in to the error about theology up like a comments This makes sense of all of his The troll falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a This mad clear to me a great number of his Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and This is why he makes such a big deal about to the fulness of Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of but we need to make such a strong distinction We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal Sacred Theology alone treats of God This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Even the even the stuff that can be known by Because it is proceeding according to a higher and starting with God as its formal Metaphysics is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects enture TAC never says that metaphysics is necessary in the sense of doctrinal And the Church never says this You are just making it up because you cannot accept the The Church says that sacred Faith and revelation can exist without and that the former are necessary to perfect and fulfill TAC has it completely and you are unable to accept Can you explain what you think metaphysics is I think this is where the misunderstanding  very enture I am not a Just look at your is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects That makes no If grace perfects then revelation is necessary for This is what the Catholic Church TAC teaches the a I have nothing invested in this at except the cause of truth in And an absymal reader of At this I think you are a A troll is You have set the bar to another level and for that I commend Metaphysics is the science of being qua It cannot consider God As Thomas Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum sed tamquam principia et talis est quam philosophi quae alio nomine metaphysica Alia quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est quae in sacra Scriptura enture you did admit you were heretical in relation to the RC And I knew to expect plenty of absurd objections when I posted doctrinal errors in enture that is but by It is wisdom in a qualified Please talk about enture And metaphysics is a science that proceeds by not by and it is commonly refered to as natural metaphysics only treats of the divine as principles of the enture It treats of God as the first enture And it treats of God in this as a science that proceeds by not by enture But sacred theology treats of God by by as God revealing mysteries about which is the data of the science of sacred which proceeds reasonably but by enture Now TAC asserts that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill the This is The Church confutes that in Her In what way tho That is the question my enture In what way what This is what we need to distinguish metaphysics formally from Sacred Because Sacred Doctrine ttreats of the Divine This is why we start with a consideration of God In The Summa Thomas takes up some questions that can be known by but they can only be known with great difficulty and not much but Sacred Doctrine allows us to consider being not simply in the mode of learning but in the proper mode of In what way is it necessary start with enture enture In no way is it Dude not what i In what sense do you mean Seriously just answer the enture In NO WAY is it This is what the Church It is absolutely is what the college enture meaning that without it would not metaphysics is necessary to have the fullness of Sacred I think they meant that sense of There are many senses of the Words have It is what makes them wonderful Because sometimes we think like enture As sacred theology is necessary to because without it would not be in any way enture backwards Why do you not see No that the only sense of Which has been said maybe a thousand enture Metaphysics is not necessary to sacred Sacred theology is necessary to Faith is necessary for God is necessary for Will you answer the about to go full blown teen angst enture I there are many ways you can mean but this is the particular sense that the College uses And this is the sense that the Church uses it when it says that the sacred is necessary for the not the other way enture What is the How does the Church use How does TAC use Faith is It is not what is it passes Knowledge is perfect and We rely on Faith because we do not It is that we This is why you were right Catherine when you said we know all things with by the rational We come to know all things by but we hold things held by faith as though they were held by reason because we have greater certainty in How do you know that this is the sense if there are many It seems this requires us to go back to the words and tease out the meaning therein not the meaning any of us wants to The words can speak for If they use the word necessity and there is a charitable perhaps we should consider the possibility that the whom are all good men as far as any can noting that God looks at the meant it in that enture what the heck are you The Church is infallible in matters of faith and Now I see your  This is why I used the grace perfects in this knowledge of is perfected by in this case the light of so that we can attain to the science of Sacred I think Daniel is saying that when we hold things by it is just as certain as if we held them by or even more Is that  The troll either or intentionally misreads and try not to engage It was this or another episode of some people are just not as far along as others It would help if we all stopped calling each other heretics and though of course I did this partly I will comply with your request I guess that would take the fun out of everything for everyone I only use the term troll as a formal designation to effectively convey to people what they are getting I have not and do not call anyone a because that is beyond my competency to Someone might say something but I find that it is seldom useful to tell people does this sound God reveals himself to That revelation is what we study in sacred But we can also know things about God through natural reason a very limited If you agree with as you seem you say that our study of God would be missing a piece if we did not pay attention BOTH to how we know God through AND how we can know him through of course not calling people not of PERHAPS you may have done such a thing in past So all that necessary means in this Not that you NEED to read metaphysics and understand everything he said about oneness and being to know what God has revealed about Good can all go back to when I go deal with my insomnia  You guys are over You are over I hope he can here what you are The same has been said to him before and to no I thought you were going to  I thought you were Just checking Not in a way that everyone can I know that I have This same argument has occurred on various threads but at least all racking up is what is Hence the thread renaissances of various And to be I think the questions posed by Scott are good I just never have success in engaging him beyond the initial It amazes me that anyone would ignore the necessity for at least the most basic natural knowledge in understanding even one word of In determining what a term who would when studying contexts outside of scripture is not like biblical Hebrew is the simplest Maybe some knowledge of what a mustard plant is like can help understanding that Christ used imagery that would require generations of faithful to either study or accept from those that have things outside of If in the most basic understanding outside knowledge is then cannot be wholly When we go we find that Christ is both God and True true concept of person is not in It is a that corresponds with true But not one worked out much before So in coming to understand what the Incarnation we had to turn to the light of reason and understand the reality accessible to it more And in doing having an understanding of we then saw the revealed truth to a greater Call it but the greater natural knowledge means a greater understanding of a very basic tenet of the We cannot even begin to articulate true without such How can anyone honestly doubt the benefits of studying and especially for understanding the Metaphysics is the study of being qua If one just as knowledge of the mustard plant gives a greater context to the parable of so too the knowledge of being qua being cannot but give a greater knowledge of the context of by shedding light on the very basic principles of His  it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et I want to get back to John questions above John I think a good example of a of reform in is Tom reading of Dignitatis Pink shows how there is and discontinuity at different The continuity is at the level of As Pink the Church has always held that the state has no native right to coerce in matters of that the Church does have this right over the and that the Church can use the state as a secular arm to do The discontinuity is at the level of the Church in DH decides a matter of to not make use of a secular It seems to me that there is nothing arbitrary in it is not a trick to impose own private opinion on the teachings of the it is really an attempt to understand those teachings and their HD in the Rain From a recently surfaced digital transfer of in the Rain hope Warner decides to release a restored version of Oh my you really broke nice work enture Nothing to see enture Since so much of revelation was revealed by we therefore hold that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred The supernatural comes from the Revelation comes from God comes from enture It seems that Faith comes from therefore metaphysics and reason is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred just as Man is necessary for the fulfillment of God because God comes from On the I will never forgive any of you for making me catch up on try a new way of reformulating the same old To study sacred the in her Extraordinary Magisterium recommends studying Thomas be studied in a one needs to study that which theology Therefore one should study But one study metaphysics in a Therefore one must study natural and and we have just deduced the TAC curriculum enture On the the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred and reason is insufficient for the fulfillment of and the sacred In response to this infallible TAC alumni claim that a section from the Catholic Encylopedia says the exact opposite of what it really you keep insisting but you have no other than Pope Everyone here would agree with this the the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred and reason is insufficient for the fulfillment of and the sacred I add because obviously there must be rational or intellectual beings in order for there to be This is what TAC this is what everyone here would agree If this is all you are then there is no he is saying that TAC and the founders and the and the people who only went for two years but can make an actual ARGUMENT looking at you claim that reason alone is It for the nth a straw man I I Catherine Ryland has guilted me into addressing the madness enture Behind this Potemkin village of students and dwells the host of rational heresies which proport that reason is necessary for the fulfillment of Says Were you there polling Can someone have faith without Does faith even make sense without you can go to heaven without when not Obviously someone must have the rational faculty to have God has no need of the natural order of if one wants to pursue the study of Sacred Theology in a scientific one must reason to do a solid grasp of the sciences which perfect the intellect and its use are necessary in order to do that The study of Sacred Theology is not necessary in order to be so neither is on which Sacred Theology NECESSARILY to go back to what Peregrott just wrote is necessary for the fulfillment of is totally Reason is necessary for the scientific explanation of the This would only be a problem if someone thought that explanation precisely How do you address heresies without it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et I also really like how PE quoted Pope John Paul words from Fides et it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et You a pretty good it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et parenthetically still hoping for My personal favorite from Fides et Ratio least that pertains to this it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et now just silly you see I just posted I am such a silly of course Peretroll Bonamagisterium would simply read the quote to say that TAC is a hotbed of heresy because TAC thinks reason is sufficient gnostic enture philosophy aids in the articulation of just as good grammar But sacred theology is fulfilled alone by and in no way depends on In metaphysics would be impossible without All this is unless you go to then you believe revelation and Faith comes from enture if you go to odds are a complete how do you jive what you just wrote with the times cited the jerk grant you lemme dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its metaphysics enture Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of But TAC the act of reason is the core of faith and without faith would be the Church teaches that right reason is impossible without and a correct metaphysics is impossible without enture Fides et Ratio is good but TAC goes off the deep Do you like putting words into our So you just dodge what people ask maybe I figured it Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of what the hell does that of In what Distinguo distinguo distinguo I think more terms have been added to the I thought faith faith faith and nothing else was But now faith has something Which is Love more et Ratio is good Is that how you treat the extraordinary To be does not suffice occasionally to clip the roots of the if the ground is not dug deeply so as to check them beginning again to and if there are not removed their seeds and root causes from which they grow so That is since the prolonged study of human God has made empty and as the Apostle when that study lacks the flavouring of divine wisdom and the light of revealed leads to error rather than to the discovery of the we ordain and rule by this salutary in order to suppress all occasions of falling into error with respect to the matters referred to that from this time onwards none of those in sacred whether religious or seculars or others so when they follow courses in universities or other public may devote themselves to the study of philosophy or poetry for longer than five years after the study of grammar and without their giving some time to the study of theology or pontifical Once these five years are if someone wishes to sweat over such he may do so only if at the same or in some other he actively devotes himself to theology or the sacred so that the priests may find the in these holy and useful for cleansing and healing the infected sources of philosophy and Fifth Lateran Council enture Faith without love is It is a broken as Paul It is not really Faith unless it has Faith He is our Father in was fulfilled through his act of love of You may have and be a total enture sad they do not teach you about love at Just and of course revelation would be impossible without the hence you are a bunch of The message about love is second semester junior enture Thank Pater for that lovely treatise on clipping What is they say in that damned song played at all the hurry love you just have to wait You got to give it time No matter how long it enture Well of the Church teaches that love comes from second semester in junior why you guys are the greatest enture Phil He was better when he just played the drums behind Peter I may be a total jerk never cited Aristoilet on this but you seem to be acquitting yourself of jerkness too well either enture Francis de Sales warns about I thought it was heretical  Does Peregrine never St Francis de Sales is Magisterium cathedrae Lateran V is extraordinary enture I think dancing may be imprudent and may lead somewhere especially when you consider how you could be praying for the poor souls in purgatory I think what Francis says in his Intro to the Devout but he did not have the grace to attend TAC or do the which clearly is the dance of If the Church does not teach it Because this is what they do at and TAC is the GREATEST did you read Pater quote from Lateran enture Did you ever ponder what a big jerk you sound No one said TAC was the greatest ever and without enture The Fifth Lateran Council makes it clear how flawed philosophy and dependent on Do you think this might be why the Church teaches that revelation is necessary for right and right reason is necessary for the science of the not for but for the jerk While this thread is quite a glimpse into the humor of the misunderstanding of the uses of Wait a Ack never I have a feeling you been reading some of the a jerk too Hence the need for freshmen philosophy enture But grace is needed for right enture Faith is needed for right enture Faith perfects enture Faith comes from revelation and grace and not enture And revelation takes the form of sacred theology in the sacred science of the only because I have special without God informing me that there is a need to think I do enture Metaphysics aids sacred like a lowly enture Metaphysics does not stand at the thumping her like Kobe asserting that she is necessary for sacred theology to in other does not act like the typical TAC enture Metaphysics does not thump her breast like LeBron as the founding persons of TAC have misrepresented those Bringing in Grace just makes things Grace is needed for Grace is needed for Grace is needed for but Free Thankfully we can accept on faith Grace and Free but without reason Augustine would have failed at bringing down heresies regarding these On track for I believe you guys have had several threads of You must enjoy it very Like a dog to my own I return to slay trolls enture Grace acts in the human soul prior to an act of free The infallible dogma on invincible grace states is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the which precedes the free act of the It is so sad that TAC does not study the Catholic And O return to slay dragons and enture And to set the world on with love of Christ and his Blessed conceived without I think that quote has been cited Has anyone noticed that thread is Has anyone noticed that this thread is I think recursive glad you have such a noble goal in calling people I call people jerks out of love all the enture I think those who think it is recursive are enture It is possible to call someone a jerk out of That word is not oustide the ball Other words Like And who determines which words can be said out of love and which Words mean whatever you say they Or else the enture There are standards for usage within the English There are standards for It is not reasonable to state that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred then back that false statement up with another false statement that theology would be impossible without In the order of theology would be impossible without but in the order of grace perfects not the other way run afoul of the Blue I thought this quote was it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et enture Metaphysics at TAC fulfills sacred theology which you can study I know the Church says the exact but got to side with TAC on this You really have not been reading the responses have Especially that of Daniel Joshua Kenz and Pater Edmund enture seen that quote posts Theology would be impossible without words but this is in the order of not the order of I know to most TAC Faith would be impossible without your theology but again this is in the order of not We are Catholics alumnists How about I am going to yell with WOULD IN FACT BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS THEOLOGICAL ISSUES such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true WORDS ARE NECESSARY TO I think enture without it would be impossible to discuss THIS IS IN THE ORDER OF NOT IN THE ORDER OF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REASON RIGHTLY WITHOUT GRACE AND THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TAC TEACHES THE HOLDING UP THE ORDER OF NATURE FOR THE ORDER OF BEING AND THUMPING ITS IT IS The call of the thread is not which can eternal Yet with strange aeons even death may To gaze upon is to know and to is to never Being is another complicated word to toss But at least we are getting somewhere with what Josh said about the order of knowing  I hate Squirrels UP Sometimes Squirrels can really be distraction shorten the quote so you miss the important is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et enture It is good counsel to study but sacred theology is fulfilled without In the order of we would not get far in a theological discussion without first learning a But in the order of as things are in as God has made revelation and grace fulfill not the other way THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS SOMETHING WE MUST It is sad you do not know or regard phrases like order of nature and order of being as arbitrary toss around This these words and these truths have been around for TAC IS TOO BUSY BOASTING TO TAKE PART IN THIS And I might repeat that quote until you get would probably cause this thread to reach some kind of this is still Should I crank up the Kajagoogoo and start trying to read Back a while Daniel Lendman pointed out that Faith is imperfect as knowledge except with regard to a claim you had trouble with for some like you to explain how Faith differs from the Beatific Vision and why the latter is more perfect and desirable than the I think it might help you see why Sacred Theology depends on reason to flesh out the structure given by the dogmaticly promulgated principles of enture sacred theology takes a correct sapiential philosophy for in the order of in the order of This is a correct Just as it takes a correct grammar and This does not as TAC wrongly that metaphysics is necessary for the FULFILLMENT of scred On the in the order of ontologically and grace and revelation are the only things that are necessary for the fulfillment of sacred AND for the fulfillment of reason and a legitimate THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS AN INFALLIBLE You are twisting it because you have been I think reading the responses because Josh Kenz just distinguished the order of being and nature and relation to philosophy and enture the Faith of the Church is The Church is infallible in regards to faith and This is also a dogma of the  It also might help you see that a Catholic education might be able to promote the Faith of the students without teaching sacred for example one might call a certain course of studies in theoretical physics a because it enables one to see that there are no scientific objections to the In such an education might be the best education for a significant portion of enture you are dismissing the correctness of my statements because you imagine someone named Josh to have debunked my This is all been brainwashed by the I think ever denied but perhaps I repeated it dogmatically enough for does has the Church defined what you claim it like to see the magisterial statements upon which you base your He likes putting words in mouths enture you might benefit from knowing that Catholic colleges err when they teach that sacred theology is fulfilled by instead of the deposit of the Someone told a joke once which I think fits the Peregrine just want to read his own he wants to read other people repeating his own opinions in their own enture How did I put words in you are clearly unable to have a serious Do you think that order of being is not a legitimate theologival You just said that Ed was saying the church was not infallible with regards to faith and morals and he say anything of that enture you have just lost an In the order of revelation and grace perfect reason and fulfill sacred This is what the Church TAC teaches the Plus everyone else has used church documents etc to support their And you have not responded to direct and simple Faith is That comes from Quod gratis gratis negatur still waiting for your essay on the difference between the Beatific Vision and Faith in which you realize since Faith is not the Beatific it leaves room in the speculative order for fulfillment by the discourse of And I try to make it my mission in life to object to everything that comes out of but now becoming next to impossible because for once actually saying everything simply I think a really roundabout way of saying that you agree with enture objected to how I disputed a previous claim that Faith is imperfect as Faith is in no way The Faith of the Church is The teaching on Faith is He is suggesting that it is imperfect in some way because Faith is not reasoned This is this is a The only issue here is false claim that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without This statement in the Blue Book is This is utter Lauren is worried about encouraging I She also is generally unwilling to admit that ever Still waiting on for your magesterial Care to cite a text or I Corinthians videmus nunc per speculum in enigmate tunc autem facie ad faciem nunc cognosco ex parte tunc autem cognoscam sicut et cognitus sum enture you can go look up the dogmas of the If you believe that sacred theology depends on and if you are presuming to speak for the sacred then you must know where to find I speak for sacred nor do I speak for YOU go find texts for your enture fear of the Lord is is not flesh and blood which has revealed these but my Father in TAC claiming that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without They are claiming line with the that Sacred theology is impossible without metaphysics Oh Now we are sola scriptura and taking verses all on their Very Catholic thing to Y U disgrace Peregrine Only personal attacks are otherwise if just content you find you are free to browse other enture if you call yourself you should know the dogmas of the If you have studied you should know the principles of sacred If TAC is claiming that sacred theology would be impossible without they are clearly This is the same thing as saying that Faith would be impossible without or that the supernatural comes from The Peregrine is not amused Peregrine Only personal attacks are otherwise if just content you find you are free to browse other In other you study anything about what is divinely revealed without also studying things about person and so is your position that Theology If tell us how they enture you that is not my How do they What does the notion of add to the gift of Promulgation by the Or enture Faith is assent to the principles of sacred Faith can also be assent to the principles of natural if those are revealed and in the deposit of the So you do not need to study metaphysics in order to have sacred the conclusion of your argument is that metaphysics is not necessary for you botched it again enture Sacred theology is the process by which we incorporate tradition into the development of a virtus dormitiva definition if ever seen enture You do not need metaphysics for Faith or sacred Not when the principles are There is an implicit reasonability to this sacred but it does not necessarily follow from however a valid metaphysics necessarily follows from grace and I forgot that you approve of reading either Moliere or A have we defined magesterium enture you are suceeding in your attempt to sound but you are being a  does opium induce means of a means namely the virtus replies the doctor in Quia est in eo virtus Cujus est natura sensus But such replies belong to the realm of Thank enture Nietsche and Freud are irrelevant to this are Sacred Theology is not a the Comedian reminded today why I miss this maybe we should start a new thread of agreed upon Do we have any We could call it the thread that has no I am an irrelevant heretical You nailed it enture it most certainly is a sacred theology is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and in the order of And this is the life of the Magisterium as it has unfolded in the fullness of You do not know what you are talking To say that sacred theology is not a process is to reduce revelation to which is another I think most of us are just amusing ourselves while we wait for you to answer approximately enture You said STUDYING sacred theology is a this thread is not possible to have a thread that has no because then there would be no first but confuse the science and the study of the science enture Sacred theology itself is a you are Ed are arrogant Material Geometry is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and in the order of Natural Philosophy is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and in the order of enture Geometry is in no way necessary to the knitting is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and in the order of yarn Metaphysics is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and in the order of that was my point enture Natural philosophy is in no way necessary to sacred Carpentry is the process of going from things better constructed to things newly constructed and unfolding in the order of enture Metaphysics is in no way necessary to sacred in the order of This is what the Church But TAC is smarter than the just illustrating the idiocy of your enture Edward Langley is a fool in the process of being more in the order of oh crap You just claimed that being is his act of Now the material The process using is known as baculation I learned it from Topics and a non TAC does the lack of a magesterial definition of magesterium lead to the reform of the eternal reform and the creation of eternal troll dwelling Well that escalated Good job with classing up the every nor every should be but only one which might puzzle one of those who need not punishment or For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love parents or not need while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need enture Saying that scared theology is a process is in no way It illustrates that it begins with revealed principles in inform It illustrates the error of saying that metaphysics fulfills sacred In the process goes the other grace perfecting asking you for a definition of a habit and defining an If you had studied Categories you might realise your enture you are just being a but not only should pb assent to Edward then but also offer He is a very inconsistent no one is saying that metaphysics perfects You keep saying that enture TAC states that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred and that it is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred It is important for Catholic students to develop a theological habit of We do this by understanding how sacred theology in the life of the TACs claim undermines I blame the magesterium for this entire thread for not defining in this case Is it ok then to take a peek at tradition when definitions were not out of touch with Or is that too The troll makes no sense when he says that Sacred Theology is a especially since he has above called it a Science does not have otherwise we would not know because it would be I will go further than I have Since metaphysics is necessary for the study and comprehension and perfection of Sacred then so also is the philosophy of and and even some measure of all the liberal There is a distinction between the order of learning and the order of but you are using it Geometry might not be necessary to but it sure makes understanding faith Scott has already demonstrated above that he does not know or understand the definition of metaphysics or of Sacred he confuses the really too bad that my interwebs addiction and a deep commitment to continuing this thread has coincided with a love of irrational a severe case of and a work deadline that until sometime next all the usual people I argue with being If it is any your participation on this thread makes it loads more It also gives a stunning whenever it is stated that TAC grads It is hard to argue against that claim with Beitia and I I am definitely a jerk And most certainly a I think you tried to be a jerk and we all Your faults are I think this thread also proves that the premise I am afraid that this discussion will make poor material for your enture your argument is to pretend that you are It is like a little Potemkin Sacred theology would be impossible without a lot of But the Church teaches that without grace and the sacred the sapiential sciences would This is our This is what the Church TAC does not teach the It teaches a version of Catholic Roma locuta Causa finita And you better not think about enture you the one claiming that order of being is a term being tossed around a few minutes I think you might profit from the Seraphic reductione artium ad When I read it last I remember thinking that it was the blue book before the blue book was a That is not my just trying to do my part to get this thread to enture And you are a bunch of Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her is an arrogant enture Not only you defending such you are defending it tooth and Quod refero Why do we need to call names Si philosophus enture forgive me you misinformed what is your sorry if I missed I must have mistaken it for But do You get truths that are solely revealed by God the with your unaided No one is arguing But you consider anything revelation gives us about the Trinity unless you use your reason or rational This make Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her is an arrogant And I am already an arrogant I should let it be known that I am really freaking if it make sense to chances the problem is And reason about immaterial things is the troll confuses with and applies it to TAC enture Because the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed enture no where does it claim that metaphysics is the You keep adding is jerk enture So what it is perfectly You are ome that Peregrine is so loyally devoted to TAC that he has consecrated all his waking hours to amusing its alumni shhh let him in on our gnosis datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum descendens a Patre Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis Licet autem omnis illuminatio cognitionis interna possumus tamen rationabiliter ut quod est lumen scilicet lumen artis lumen scilicet lumen cognitionis lumen scilicet lumen cognitionis lumen scilicet lumen gratiae et sacrae Primum lumen illuminat respectu figurae secundum respectu formae tertium respectu veritatis quartum et ultimum respectu veritatis Et sic quomodo sapientia quae lucide traditur in sacra occultatur in omni cognitione et in omni Patet quomodo omnes cognitiones famulantur et ideo ipsa assumit exempla et utitur vocabulis pertinentibus ad omne genus Patet quam ampla sit via et quomodo in omni quae sentitur sive quae interius lateat ipse Et hic est fructus omnium ut in omnibus aedificetur componantur hauriantur quae sunt in unione sponsi et quae quidem fit per ad quam terminatur tota intentio sacrae et per consequens omnis illuminatio desursum et sine qua omnis cognitio vana quia nunquam pervenitur ad Filium nisi per Spiritum qui docet nos omnem est benedictus in saecula This really is a masterful exposition of the order of the intellectual De reductione artium ad theologiam datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum descendens a Patre Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis Licet autem omnis Given that I have graduated Summa Cum Laud from two graduate I am not I am playing the part of the arrogant Especially this this is the fruit of all that in all of them Faith is built library is a nicer building than their Goes to show how they are the ones who in value the intellect over the magisterium sacred tradition divine revelation enture In para or section of the TAC the college claims quite falsely that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred This passage has been quoted and cited about times It is telling how convenient it is for jerks and arrogant fools to ignore facts when it does not match their You do not have the ability to discuss Metaphysics in no way completes or perfects sacred Metaphysics in itself would be useless without grace and the guidance of the sacred This is what the Church teaches in Her If the why does the Tradition use the analogy of the mind to illuminate the doctrine of the other reason to read the Seraphic Doctor is that his Latin prose is enture In matters of Faith and the sacred and the principles Catholic thinkers go by what the Church not by what some reactionaries dreamed up in the Love that Is that Metaphysics IS useless without grace because then it is the highest science With Sacred Theology it is and there is a host of Fathers and Doctors of the Church who use the various philosophical theories of the mind to illumine the doctrine of the John A queen do anything without ly have to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia again I think time to repeat Fides et enture Because you are stuck in the previous millenium and you do not know what you are talking about because you desire first to seem intelligent but come across as an arrogant it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true This is no less true of the different themes of moral which employ concepts such as the moral personal responsibility and which are in part defined by philosophical It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a consistent and true knowledge of created world and man are also the object of divine Still reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human the world more of which has objective truth as its Pope St John Paul Fides et Not a d stones may break my bones but words will never hurt what he says there underlies some things I have said Have you a translation for the benefit of the illuminates all Our assent is Dissent do you know who the Let me give you a the Church consider that term to be We hit a while Did anyone already mention enture The Catholic Encyclopedia and Faith and Reason do not contradict the Churches dogma on grace perfecting nature and revelation being necessary for all TAC I do John I have already explained the grace perfecting nature Do I need to do it you have to be stuck in an even more previous enture you are an arrogant boy who lacks the skill and authority to make such That is an ad hominem it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such for the use of language to speak about the personal relations within the creative activity in the the relationship between God and or identity as true God and true what JPII says is without philosophy we cannot discuss certain theological issues such the use of language to speak about God the personal relations within the Trinity creative activity in the world the relationship between God and man identity as true God and true I guess that means that philosophy no way completes or perfects sacred It must be the case that discussing these issues is completely irrelevant to Sacred Edward Langley has one of the finest and clearest minds I have ever havent you figured this Peregrine all arguments by simply denying and his other move is ad only got two I admit that I lack the skill to make a long hard road to barely begun deciding how to judge logical and mathematical to say nothing about natural metaphysics and sacra And I suppose I only have authority to make such judgments when dealing with my I like what I said about grace perfecting so I will say it in this case perfects in this case This is where babies come I this is where Sacred Theology comes enture Grace perfecting Revelation perfecting Sacred theology perfecting not the other way You cannot study theology without studying the Church and Her It is impossible to study this without that underscores the implicit It does not mean you have to read Aristotle to get sacred theology TAC gets it very enture grace does not perfect You make it sound like if you pray and attend God will give you grace to get metaphysics right and fulfill sacred In this is what the founders of TAC tell in the sacred science perfects the higher perfecting the so that it is This is why you should study more doctrine at this is what the Church teaches de TAC gets it No you certainly That is not what anyone is imagine Imagine there was nothing to in this no now what would faith There is nothing to so there is no grace so there is no Sacred Theology and it all goes to Distinguish the speculative and practical In the practical Faith is all that is necessary for the since good action require one to know why what one is doing is the right thing to all one needs is certitude about the right course of In the speculative Faith helps but cannot suffice because when the intellect knows something is true it seeks to know it is that is hidden in this life the but we can approximate it by calling upon the aid of You would be on much firmer ground if you deny that Sacred Theology is a speculative that after the position of Albert the Scotus and the Franciscan But if you admit that there is a speculative science of Sacred faith cannot suffice for the perfection of that you have so many and arguing against Does that give you any Having gone to it was probably inevitable that this fascinating monstrosity of a Scott Pilgrim Versus TAC would make it on to my news despite my not knowing Since I want to a threat that looks longer and even more convoluted than the City of can someone Who is you What is his connection to Why he is obsessed TAC including metaphysics in the Whether he is employed or has a life outside of this grace is primarily concerned with the practical since he gives us grace to save right to say that metaphysics percfect faith in that But foolish to think that faith can satisfy desire to know the go that route and you turn into Dylan Scott I a troll who lives on stalking he tried freshman year repeatedly he thinks the pope Peregrine Bonaventure is Scott Weinberg He was asked to leave TAC some years ago by He finished up his education at Beat This makes more sense I said this over comments so it bears TAC is the I am the best inclusively to mean than which there is no Did you just say Daniel is Oh and if anyone is interested in Zoroastrianism This is Chinese Archaeology enture you state that it is to think that faith can satisfy desire to know the This completely contradicts You are an arrogant You have lost this Anyone would be blessed to not go to And why do you continue to assert that I am someone who I am I know Scot He finished his education with a masters degree in Literature and Rhetoric at s for the hat Geez where I found If you that one then who are Sorry JA I remember who had posted the t joshing you anyhow just and no where in Scripture does it say that Faith satisfies desire to know the Faith pushes us to go We long to see The who is Love Bonaventure you state that it is to think that faith can satisfy desire to know the This completely contradicts You are an arrogant You have lost this If this were then who would need the Beatific And You could you do me the small favor of laying your argument out in a logical At the you seem to resemble the people who stand on street corners with megaphones yelling gibberish about heaven and hell rather than someone who claims to understand the correct method to study just for I hereby declare that Peregrine NottheSeraphicDoctor has lost the you have no idea what you are asking if he I will dive back into the abyss and pull them up for and per our conversation we could replace second semester Senior year lab with Joel Pater Catherine Ryland How To Calculate The Speed Of Light In Your Own Home You may think your microwave is good only for making popcorn or heating up last But with a big chocolate bar and a little you can use use your microwave to calculate the speed of possible to measure d is within our enture it is by grace that we come to not Your assertions are almost my favorite quote was of the Seraphic doctor by Bonaventure Argumentum finitum Bonaventura locutus I explicitly said that the practical order Unless you think that we are saved by the perfection of our speculative my summary of the Peregrine argument to this TAC is a heresy You are all products Therefore you are all Quod erat enture I have laid out the argument times you are being TAC claims that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill sacred These are the words TAC The Church teaches de fidei that the opposite is TAC gets it This leads to intellectual I am glad I did not go to This is the Actually i think some of might be corroborated if pb would listen and engage in Corrobated in the bonaventure enture it matter what order you are talking When you deny that man is saved and perfected by supernatural when you deny that everything in nature is perfected by you are talking Blue Book as theology itself there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human This traditionally named or first is also an essential part of liberal because it is necessary for the full development of enture here again is the TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary to perfect sacred This claim is This claim is the contrary of the Catholic dogma on sacred theology and TAC teaches a Its students are I am very lucky I did not go enture the quote is It contradicts the Full development certainly does not mean long ago now found two causes of all the magesterium no longer using definitions and secondly own unorthodox mutant producing heresy petri dish substance d pb ptacd troll only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many What do you think of that I believe this is the text Scott is as theology itself there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human This traditionally named or first is also an essential part of liberal because it is necessary for the full development of VII of the On Equal Footing to the Infallible Magesteirum Blue Book I included the whole I have given away the game I want opinion on only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many enture Metaphysics is not necessary for the perfection of Natural theology is not necessary for the full development of the sacred The contrary is without knowledge of what the Church teaches in Her dogmatic you err in your This is the error of You presume to understand the higher without studying it and the dogmas of the while advancing boldly on a flawed metaphysical This leads to arrogance and Especially the reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine  t in the sense of as sacred unless committed to tendentious reading Even matter is necessary for form a material to be properly Scott would know that if he studied the philosophy of enture You need grace to reason and only is there a Thomas seemed reasonably to err in Faith on more than one But in the the sacred science brings metaphysics to Not the other way Do you think my quote is only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many aid over and theology is not constituted by metaphysics plus revelation in a In a theology does presuppose the truths of metaphysics and even carries them within but in the fully articulate forms of theology needs metaphysics to articulate itself a This is what the citations given all and what I and what TAC enture Full development is the same thing as But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred It might seem like this but this would be Sacred theology has always guided and perfected This is why you need to study more You answered my Peregrine lopment is not the same thing as It is a sort of accidental articulation as a discursive Does reason establish the foundation of or That is why I used the matter form er thought in my life that the words is what I and this is what TAC would ever be uttered by me enture the college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred This underscores the pedagogy of the It is a false and erroneous teaching because it produces flawed It prodices flawed conclusions as the Church the sacred science perfects I think you are being you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and i can not even imagine what pb is saying How many times and with how many authorities can one make the same Even Meno would have grasped it by Does this prove the concrete as Newman might my opinining long ago that theology can be dangerous for a you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and you also resort to enture Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred then a material that quotation was from Vatican enture you are the one who is not that was a gotcha and I really liked the appropriate response is Or enture false and you take Vat I out of Right reason is an effect of assent to which is clearly the foundation of the you should be a part of that one of the If he I believe the conditions for formal heresy are In which we should get out our egrine a hat they do at   enture The Foundation of the Faith is assent to revealed It is not a valid You are Here is The perpetual agreement of the catholic church has maintained and maintains this that there is a twofold order of distinct not only as regards its but also as regards its With regard to the we know at the one level by natural at the other level by divine With regard to the besides those things to which natural reason can there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God unless they are divinely are incapable of being when the who witnesses that God was known to the gentiles from created comes to treat of the grace and truth which came by Jesus he We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of which God decreed before the ages for our None of the rulers of this age understood God has revealed it to us through the For the Spirit searches even the depths of And the in his confession to the acknowledges that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the little Now does indeed when it seeks piously and achieve by gift some and that most of the whether by analogy from what it knows or from the connexion of these mysteries with one another and with the final end of but reason is never rendered capable of penetrating these mysteries in the way in which it penetrates those truths which form its proper For the divine by their very so far surpass the created understanding even when a revelation has been given and accepted by they remain covered by the veil of that same faith and as it in a certain as long as in this mortal life we are away from the for we walk by and not by Even though faith is above there can never be any real disagreement between faith and since it is the same God who reveals the mysteries and infuses and who has endowed the human mind with the light of God cannot deny nor can truth ever be in opposition to The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of Therefore we define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally Furthermore the church together with its apostolic office of has received the charge of preserving the deposit of has by divine appointment the right and duty of condemning what wrongly passes for lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of particularly if they have been condemned by the and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and that in fact she assists and promotes them in many For she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human rather she acknowledges that those things flow from the lord of if they are properly lead to God by the help of his Nor does the church forbid these studies to each within its own its own proper principles and but while she admits this just she takes particular care that they do not become infected with errors by conflicting with divine by going beyond their proper intrude upon what belongs to faith and engender For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound May knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll and greatly and vigorously in each and in the individual and the whole but this only in its own proper that is to in the same the same and the same Vatican I enture can talk about more TAC errors Gotta That is close enough to I Andrews It would explain how he knows TAC is a factory of As he is Answer not a fool according to his lest thou be made like Answer a fool according to his lest he imagine himself to be Ooh a Now that he is it might have been this sort of thing that he is thinking TAC the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly But here is where I think that JA distinction and my matter form analogy come I saw seems to operate at the level of this might be what you were saying That the principles are more perfect than the rest of the science since they contain the whole I think you are d that about how theology carries or presupposes the truths of metaphysics principially within but not in the form of articulate science I should have broken up that VI full is being used by TAC in the Newmanian and nowhere is it being asserted that without metaphysics theology is doomed to intrinsic imperfection I could have added more to the comment enture Reason guided by grace is right reason and this can serve as a basis of is what Vat I we be a posts if you did not recognise that objections to TAC are morally and scientifically fake goodbye  I your questions are good and I just want you to use your reason and get beyond the questions once in a i like to translate the word meno as am I wonder if its the origin of stick in the Mud flinging stick in the O tempora o I have benefited greatly from thinking about this sort of but it just gets to be a little boring saying the same At least you could bring to bear different arguments to obstinately hold your what are his good I think agree that it is reason guided by grace that is right That makes sense to me too BUT i only get the reasoned I suppose it is only really one assertion of Scott says college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred This underscores the pedagogy of the It is a false and erroneous teaching because it produces flawed It prodices flawed conclusions as the Church the sacred science perfects I think that raises some good The problem is that he has stated that same thing in response to nearly every When he do that he Foundation of the Faith is assent to revealed It is not a valid You are and development is the same thing as But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred It might seem like this but this would be Sacred theology has always guided and perfected This is why you need to study more and the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed if he works at i see potential for a modern Zeno EDIT i only meant the prior The latter reveal teansy perhaps flaws in just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling units good questions buried in a heap of fallacies just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling what been Loneliness that really helped by real contact with other and a desire for speak of myself here of unless others find it applies to they are excellent but they never get beyond And STILL waiting for perfection and at work blowing it off Or is with no less venerable that other enemies of divine with reckless and sacrilegious want to import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic They extol it with the highest as if religion itself were not of God but the work of or a philosophical discovery which can be perfected by human The charge which Tertullian justly made against the philosophers of his own time brought forward a Stoic and a Platonic and a Dialectical can very aptly apply to those men who rave so Our holy religion was not invented by human but was most mercifully revealed by one can quite easily understand that religion itself acquires all its power from the authority of God who made the and that it can never be arrived at or perfected by human In order not to be deceived and go astray in a matter of such great human reason should indeed carefully investigate the fact of divine Having done one would be definitely convinced that God has spoken and therefore would show Him rational as the Apostle very wisely For who can possibly not know that all faith should be given to the words of God and that it is in the fullest agreement with reason itself to accept and strongly support doctrines which it has determined to have been revealed by who can neither deceive nor be pater i will respond to your much above enture If TAC did not believe that sacred theology is doomed without and if it believed as the Church teaches that metaphysics is doomed without grace and revelation and the doctrinally imbued sacred science of the Then why do they say that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred and why do they not teach the principles of the Clearly the founders were and agenda and ideologically Some one should inform the real Scott Weinberg that this pb who definitely had been using a picture of Weinberg as his profile Get out the book and candle some time ago several of us attempted rational discourse with this SW fellow on the infinitely patient JAson has it No point no i never got that courtesy Edward I wonder what Matthew Klout score is Just want to give a late high five to Edward Langley for the Vatican time I will ever do so too Catherine Ryland do you see how he does TAC says it only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and that in fact she assists and promotes them in many and because it is WOULD someone list his better I am at an impass please and only if u have time enture if I could have a face to face with these participants I It does not mean the dialogue is It is important to hash this not that the college will change its but maybe its students will have a more informed understanding of the flaws of their curriculum for they go beyond limitations and become flaws and better appreciation of the Catholic In the academic sacred theology based on what the Church teaches sets the soul free and is the completion of Catholic liberal The quotation from Pater Edmund is Every Catholic student should think about And he calls me You think that anything that TAC teaches or that we have been saying here contradicts the quote from Pater I think we should all meet up at a bar somewhere in DC and have a fistfight to resolve the dispute that is have a conversation over Maybe you should find out who said the above quote by Pater Edmund and find out its proper This happens in the previous nothing more insane than such a nothing more impious or more opposed to reason itself could be For although faith is above no real disagreement or opposition can ever be found between this is because both of them come from the same greatest source of unchanging and eternal They give such reciprocal help to each other that true reason maintains and protects the truth of the while faith frees reason from all errors and wondrously strengthens and perfects reason with the knowledge of divine in a Pausing to appreciate the geometric that cartesian or I think it is Francois de Viete it is a I think why modern algebraic notation got ever try to draw any of figures with a number larger than  It is I tried once and quickly gave up enture quote below states that faith perfects This without metaphysics is This does not mean that God gives TAC students grace so that they have perfect I think you think This is effectively how TAC What this means is through a study of sacred and the sacred science of the and through an outlay of Her a theological habit of mind is This is liberal This is not what TAC because it does not teach sacred And not teaching or allowing its students to understand how Her teachings it moves ahead with a flawed This is in the principles of its Charter and in the holes in its says you dont know I prefer now the hotdog and smiley face symbols long above If it cant be done so i suspect its the founder of modern Descartes but not in the ergo he beautiful but is a is a and so You can draw it pretty easily with powers of THEY CUT Perescott is curriculum is screwed Viete is in the Viete was there in I think you had the wrong there is no way to study the fullness of Sacred Theology without Viete Did Viette merge geometry and Or was that Viete started Also nascent algebraic notation he standardized using certain letters for and others for variables So what exactly is a Aside from the obvious concluded that our friend was one a few days but now I want some clarity as to what exactly that means and how the Church has maybe the name sounds vaguely not I forget most and I wanted to make a Descartes Oh going to have to give this terrible thread up for I was going to try for advent a good thing lent is several months Holy this thread is still you missed scintillating points of interest Yeah I Is the troll dead Define alive and well maybe up from here currently recovering from Vatican I quote and smack is that what votis refers disappearing papal enture do I seek to understand that I may but I believe that I may For I unless I first I shall not Anselm cathedrae JUST the official Absolutely no saints at TAC or Not even Because of our incessant we are left entirely out of the book of File Shared from Box i think we have a couple popes I wonder how Peregrine gets along with Pope Now trying to immanentize the Comments in the vertical time in the horizontal Looks like exponential growth to At this rate hit before midnight is past behavior a predictor of future Cause got Mass tonight at NOW I remember He was less terrifying than the other  I thought you just went The next power of two is but is  every of the month a votive Mass in honor of the Divine Infant King at my parish it lacks the root of Having read every comment on this thread so I am amazed at your patience to argue to the same point over and over again to someone who you know That he has provoked a number of good and informative comments from you guys that have made this thread worth the time spent on I admire your I get frustrated just reading  Edward you graph is the coolest thing I have yet seen on this is the that means is the next root of perfection And this thread end Its Over Video and The its over video without anything So got some work to bit now I have posted the coolest thing on this thread that is about Emo Philips Golden gate bridge official sub Emo Philips racconta il tentativo di salvare un aspirante suicida sul Golden gate Bridge di San Traduzione ufficiale dei ComedySubs is of faith in two where any truth comes to us principally as divinely as the trinity and unity of the Incarnation of the and the and concerning these truths a false opinion of itself involves especially if it be held A thing is of if the denial of it involves as a consequence something against as for instance if anyone said that Samuel was not the son of for it follows that the divine Scripture would be Concerning such things anyone may have a false opinion without danger of before the matter has been considered or settled as involving consequences against and particularly if no obstinacy be whereas when it is and especially if the Church has decided that consequences follow against then the error cannot be free from For this reason many things are now considered as heretical which were formerly not so as their consequences are now more I have to Peregrine seems to have been enture the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural to know with absolute certainty and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural This is the infallible teaching on the necessity of Revelation to know truths of the metaphysical some maintain that is necessary for the fullness of the and in so doing they provide instruction in metaphysics without knowledge of the sacred principles of revelation under the authority of the How This would be like teaching theology in a Catholic college without teaching the fullness of what the Church It would be like shooting an arrow without Just a word to the wise on all sides to add to the number of especially repetitive It makes your opponent seem far more benighted if he is the only one making ad hominem the magisterial source of All I can find are quotations from enture I think Warren Carroll is probably a He tethered instruction to the fullness of the teaching and has given many students great joy and purpose in their The above graphic is a AND my claim there are no saints from our colleges is a joke enture I use Ott or The theological exegesis of doctrine is and is often not conveyed in these Doctrine comes from the life of the Church in Her sacred It is the most wonderful why I asked where the quote was enture Thomas argues in favor of using ad hominem especially if your opponent is an unreasonable are the barbarians attacking Rome impervious to Because they are enture get it for I am on a The phrasing of that quote looks like something said ut in For example why is it said to be rather than just enture I think it says that because assent is It is not just a factual final end and all subjects of cannot be handled under metaphysics without So it is a moral enture Because it involves more than the but also the enture from I This is still going I admire Sean Robertson for reading all the I will not do the Scott is so not sure if you guys ever figured out what theology but in my experience TAC grads never have a hard time at theology in They certainly ask more questions than other students without raising their but this typically represents a willingness to The most recent comments indicate that Vatican I was cited against the condemnable which appears to be held by so this is thread is probably winding to a Then he just said that he use Ott or so now puzzled as to where getting his enture Vatican I On It is indeed thanks to this divine that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human even in the present state of the human be known by everyone without with firm certitude and with no intermingling of here comes the moral It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human indeed eye has not neither has ear nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love enture you seem verifiably odd I guess if your observation about seminary serves us all then all is Thank you for that I do not hold to I embrace the role of metaphysics and reason in the life of the Church and in sacred and in human just that I give revelation and devotion its right Context proportion is everything in I have literally moved to a different country since this thread enture Just so everyone is the above citation from Vat I means that WITHOUT you canNOT hold with firm certitude or without error things about God which fall within the scope of reason His His laws and metaphysics or natural right you are But no one is claiming that you except you claiming that TAC claims It is a enture TAC is claiming that you need to proceed with metaphysics first in order for you to be able to later in a fully developed sacred This is nope nope obtain is not the same as study or any other setting up a straw By the some wise person way up there suggested a thread drinking I vote we start laying down some hard when most of my posting is at They frown on that sort of thing enture Let me tread lightly in good TAC seems to be saying that you need to study metaphysics in order for you to understand sacred This is evident in its Charter and This is a flawed because as the Church revelation in the sacred science is required for the perfection of Every time Michael last name is enture an ounce of tequila your conclusion follow from your TAC claims you need to study metaphysics to understand sacred theology the Church teaches revelation in the sacred science is required for perfection in metaphysics there is no conclusion that follows from these two least of all that method is flawed Every time JA Escalante to quote the Catholic Every time argument is successfully Are these like thimble size glasses and cause otherwise the thread will die as pb refuters pass here it Pass Or die of alcohol enture Of course my argument is The church teaches the sacred science and revelation is necessary to establish an error free This is the case between any sapiential science and revelation and the deposit of The maxim is faith seeking But TAC does the in its curriculum and It teaches that you must learn metaphysics in order to be able to have a full sacred theology This is a because it only makes false assumptions about the Faith because it is using a flawed See Dick Run Dick just your perpetual straw man id is not the same as  re is sock puppet for purposes admit No real person can be unreasonable  thirsty whip out the Catholic rfect enture TAC asserts you need to study metaphysics before sacred in order for you to be able to learn theology in its fullness This is the opposite of what the Church Game been on vacation so late to this party buuuuuuuuuut we cover adaptation of Aristotle in the Summa before we cover own metaphysics About to go into class what TAC We hold that every word of every useful thing by whomsoever discovered or ought to be received with a willing and grateful We exhort venerable in all earnestness to restore the golden wisdom of and to spread it far and wide for the defense and beauty of the Catholic for the good of and for the advantage of all the The wisdom of We for if anything is taken up with too great subtlety by the Scholastic or too carelessly stated if there be anything that ill agrees with the discoveries of a later in a improbable in whatever way it does not enter Our mind to propose that for imitation to Our Let carefully selected teachers endeavor to implant the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas in the minds of and set forth clearly his solidity and excellence over Let the universities already founded or to be founded by you illustrate and defend this and use it for the refutation of prevailing lest the false for the true or the corrupt for the pure be drunk be ye watchful that the doctrine of Thomas be drawn from his own or at least from those rivulets derived from the very have thus far according to the established agreement of learned pure and be careful to guard the minds of youth from those which are said to flow but in reality are gathered from strange and unwholesome enture o trollish This entire thread is one of several hundred instances that remind me of the TAC would implode servers if they decided to do online courses are weirdly obsessed with Facebook vs I hate on Facebook most of the time a spiritual of I hate when all they contribute is a funny image mad you Tom is whole thread NOT a funny image deep when you think about it with you I waffle between being totally and trying to be The thread a over Pater That first link is quite a lengthy But I will take a I do not think you responded to my You merely provided an That you did not addresses the questions and statements I And to JA Escalante and I did send something off to but am waiting for his I figure no rush and the issue can be unburied Pater away from the tinder and matches and sure there can be a conversation  gotcha I miss the old days of digging up bones and pronouncing post mortem excommunication It so is still Nothing infallible  A White Russian every time is alcohol poisoning with this one weird Michael will have a few keyboarders hospitalized with one of his What would most like to add to TAC curriculum if you One Pascendi of jäger I really know the I just like to criticize But I have a better idea reading this thread The Tao te of shot ase tell me serious Of course I a great of the many topics we I most wished we had covered sacred so I guess that would be my  dd Farbenlehre thread reflects the views of its eternal self in time only by its operation and is in no way affiliated with or representative of Thomas Aquinas You are now free to bask in its If being the Great also not much of a so it probably fit enture No undergraduate Catholic institution in America limits the role of revelation in sapiential philosophy more than Thomas Aquinas not even So behold the titles of the seniors and weep for their and pray that at least a couple of them might be hired by the college to then marvel if any of these men of leisure can pay off their I have no interest in engaging the broader but the notion that impossible to pay off the massive debt load TAC saddles you with is If you take out the maximum in TAC the standard repayment plan costs less than a But I must return to reveling in my I had a discussion with my Rhetoric students on how to figure out if arguing with a pretty You just ask him would it take to change your For as Churchill fanatic is one who change his mind and change the Nothing will ever change At this the only use in continuing to argue is for the sake of anyone possessing reason who could be in danger of falling sway to his brand of Rational dialogue with a fanatic is a losing Even you will always begin to take on the same characteristics as the and his methods will begin to rub off on The truth is that a fanatic is truly unable to A mania compels and that mania can never be sufficiently clarified or Voltaire once had an argument with a Quaker over whether it made sense for them to call themselves Christians when they do not practice His took care not to dispute anything he for no arguing with an Better not take it into head to tell a lover the faults of his or a litigant the weakness of his cause or to talk sense to a And so I went on to other More literature I think would be in a complaint And probably more politics ethics from what But for specific books I would have to look through the Great Gatsby would not be on my A poetry class including Dryden How about a poetry memorization class la John Senior and A poetry writing just trying to spark thoughts Just getting out of signing up at HR and getting my ID card at the top ten national liberal arts college where I teach this Now I gotta go back to my place and work on my other jobs I signing up for I fully admit that Gatsby does not belong in the I just like This is why never have any role in setting curriculum any place of higher the debt load at TAC is lower than almost any other liberal arts college in America and in the top usually one of the cheapest and  financial aid is honestly unbelievably but because unorthodox compared to mainstream financial it has a reputation as Which is because in my nothing could be further from the enture I think we need a new This unemployment thing is And never change my mind about as a Catholic alternative to the Ice Bucket people have to come here and The Peregrine for a couple of rounds or else donate a hundred bucks to Tim the Great Gatsby is absolutely defensible for inclusion in a Great Books I would include It even has in the I would add A Confederacy of Funniest book good I now feel remarkably vindicated in this But everyone at TAC read the Confederacy Pascendi is on the curriculum already Choice Double by Watson and John If they they ought to I just had to get that in the first I think it depends on what revamp top to This is a and story that reminds me of this with my family in Fort taking the opportunity to enjoy the delightful Old Town district and walking around it a Fort Collins being a hippie we were accosted by a Greenpeace activist who wanted to save the I listened to his only interrupting to ask which rainforests he wanted to save because I like some of them really threw him for a At the end of the speech when he asked us for a small donation and to become I said I want When pressed for a and when he gave me more good reasons to I said but I want and politely went on my I have a new trolling sidewalk And it reminds me of this TAC and the like are steals compared to other places that are a like to add The Stranger if are hung up on I prefer The Rebel I vote strongly against adding more ou just kids and a shite thanks I tend to I was polite and listened to but not joining greenpeace or any other organization because an unwashed guy on a sidewalk told me I one amongst the many I have that really stands out is as someone firmly in denial about his I reject the contention that I am not just a kid Other Viktor Search for and Graham Power and the I vote more But I understand not wanting TAC do too well with or poetry in what if we stipulate that whatever fiction is added will be added at the expense of Faerie I think a strong case to replace some of soph Take out the Faerie Queene and stick in Just Part Tim I liked Part I just of the opinion that the old literature is so vastly that if you spend enough time with the you will have no trouble with the recent stuff on your More time on the ancients and your all more than I really like fewer and fewer of the new They make the My Stick in Cormac McCarthy in place of the Faerie Stick in n guys pick on Spenser Harry Potter for TAC Spenser sucked his fear of a Protestant Pietta tried for like two hours to explain to me why it is in the I glazed over If we want Renaissance English maybe Defense of I think it probably has to do with modern incapacity for allegory your poetry I found it troublesome that after encounters only with epic poetry and some Shakespearean seniors were expected to have a productive conversation about The one of the most difficult poems ever This when barely anyone even knew what alliteration for myself never been able to get into But it I have too many great ones to spend time Upping the heresy James Portrait of the Artist as a Young Or with modern distaste for overblown Renaissance Spenser is like a literary fruitcake with LOTS of dried fruit and LOTS of Just cuz make it Please pass the crème brulee and the Passage to Daniel SO MUCH CHAUCER read He is my favorite English poet Thank God no one said any I need to keep my dinner down Or maybe It would provide a nice to the s theology for sake A poetry unit would be The Four Some Some Some you guys think that the inclusion of Tolkien in the Great Books canon is I know some who Tales in place of Spencer ALL DAY Poetry and lit seminars made me fearful and depressed for the state of other It was oddly except you want to see the uncouth that was I think TAC students would spontaneously combust if they had to try to read    We did but more would have been literature is much harder to discuss that propositions How many people here have seen Is More Literature the new market another longer also much easier to hardly if then Jane and the how that would fly at TAC e is not easier to read than treatises  le read literature very badly yes akes largely because they have done insufficient philosophy or theology or history or all I prefer Icelandic Could I get a few votes for  definitely a but I liked reading the Faerie But Beowulf is not as good love it get me But need more readable especially yeah Catherine but you think metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology sooooooo  usly imagine trying to discuss the The Alexandria Quartet in seminar at TAC Middle English is very easy to pick up in a but I ever want to spend two hours talking about poetry with a bunch of olds kids get off my be utter ruin e discussing Wake with a bunch of year old UTTER RUIN Kerouac almost as bad as discussing it with critical Kerouac is better to listen The return and rise of literature as The modern enture I I go That would be Still chanted every day all over and almost totally unknown in the And did Megan just call Kerouac the modern Homer for enture I think most students at TAC have to spend too much energy assenting to particular tenants that are far more limiting than the universal freedoms which the Catholic Faith has to When they a lot of times they know how to believe and go with the They know how to think outside of any There are exceptions to this but go ahead and dispute I am fanatical about THREE THOUSAND WITHIN THE HOUR Picard Make It So  Hey TAC be paying ME for this as the headline is a gigantic advert for  And it is continually in ult in a drop in admissions though Assenting to tenants sounds SAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT THE TENETS OF NATIONAL AT LEAST AN I would only take and distribute the rest weekly to top And then you could all use that money to help pay student thus renewing the eternal return the Neverending enture If there were a contemporary Virgil or what form would he write What would he write ldnt be a contemporary cf Lewis on primary and secondary epic in to Paradise enture My thank I meant ld be a contemporary Tolkien be something like it are exceptions to this but go ahead and dispute In that the exceptions to this rule are essentially every graduate of TAC I know But as they quod gratis gratis there were a contemporary Virgil or what form would he write What would he write O of the rage of that brought countless comments upon the book of enture Would he write about enture I sing of facebook and a man of And then we could write about how Juno hates America and the But what form would it omments to the mark So back to the question about what should be added to the What about so we stopped talking about proposed Damn this moves I would suggest more modern but not too modern so as not to scare I and Thou by Discipline and Punish be then I could show my campusing was unjust for Bonaventure when I was No luck enture I for one say quod gratis gratis negatur all the Monster at the End of this is worth a I the monster at the end of this thread  enture At is it big news when the curriculum changes a it is big I lucked out and missed TS Eliot after my time Things I Am Learning I am remarkably poorly read compared to you but I missed out on one of my but we used to do private seminars for that I thought we read the Wasteland while we were did we enture What form would great epic poem take just talked about it ad nauseum with Matthew Peterson  would be great and useful of grey The great epic form of today Star Wars  settled When Can I expect my was kidding on Star I do think that film as literature needs to get more only if Peter Jackson will drink a cup of bleach enture no you did not the shadow under the red come here under the shadow of the red Twit twit Jug Jug no I read it a million Just not suffering through a hour seminar on it a Why not assign Shakespeare today would be directing And the poets would be rocking out in Indie  the death of modern poetry is its severance from music as long as we could watch Trollhunter Trollhunter Directed by André With Otto Robert Knut Glenn Erland A group of students investigates a series of mysterious bear but learns that there are much more dangerous things going They start to follow a mysterious learning that he is enture I thought you were serious about Star I am actually watching it right now with David and They are in the giant trash compactor as we It is an epic with a simple We could right one about the war with al quada and the This is an old But what metre should it What form should the words magisterium off to Mass enture I think the great poets would be in Indie Every great age has except but we live in the greatest Why is Do we not need Are they really rocking out like men of leisure in India e looks a lot like Jack fwiw enture I wonder what form the words would Would it be hexameter with no rhyme g modernist optical illusion which forbids us to see Vladimir Vysotsky or George Brassens as great poets Pray for rget that Yeats chanted his poems with a bowed psaltery by preference enture I think great poets cannot hide behind contemporaneous They rise like What form would they write in If they still wrote Would it have I efinitely wrote a Whether it is the great one of our time is hard to say enture not about the world or America or the rise of a just about shear unless an analogy about WWI or Armagedon or Is it about any historical or is it just about the struggle between good and Just totally fair question enture I think the great epic would have to be a novel form but full of poetic t the LOTR Lewis calls swer yr about the inner structure of political order and how one relates to the heroic past in order to be virtuous in the present are the modern middle imagine discussing Wake with a bunch of year old Old Testament was bad At least one person had to have circumcision explained to or so I one person in my seminar had to have explained to them what Dido and Aeneas were up to in the cave enture Please eone spent nearly min attempting suggestive circumlocution enture I thought Hobbits were the shrinking middle class caught in class warfare between the elves and the actually not far from the truth What about throwing some Chesterton into senior just not sure how discussable that would Maybe it would depend whether it was his fiction or enture play is It is called I wrote a thesis about He uses a unique kind of discovery in His discovery is supernatural as the classical Greek discovery is like Chesterton was really a but know He only wrote one At least that was my actually that could make some At the very always thought that Chesterton was a poet who happened to write a lot of while Lewis was a prose writer who happened to write some enture His dramatic was the best technique He was very  about I admit I never liked the in the Fr Brown seemed always too telepathic and irrational  Did you miss enture I The senery and the actors apparently had a good effect on They drew him His play is more I think the Fourth Millenium must be Joachim of Age of the Holy Spirit JA and Peregrine are agreeing on enture The play is built around one central It is a story about a love and a The woman is seduced by a There are two forces working in the GKC worked from a literary theory called the mystical minimum of This was a constant theory that he The tiniest particple of positive grace can overwhelm a universe of The Christian narrative uses this Why was God born in a This is a mystical Our hearts are wired to respond in gratitude to this TAC has too much at senior seminar enture In the play Chesterton orchestrates this kind of He uses two one red one for this The discovery has two the diminishment of evil and the increase of So it is a different kind of more to and only one in the He liked hanging out with the and he liked how it was But he withdrew from probably because theater is like what Francis de Sales says about and GKC was very He was no George Bernard You sadden Peregrine Bonaventure JA Escalante this GKC discussion reminds me of one of my favorite poems about and the fact that few know what they are actually good or what they are here Literature enture That parrot sure knows his Thank enture The Project Gutenberg eBook of by SONS NEW YORK AND LONDON The Knickerbocker Press BY CHESTERTON The Knickerbocker New York play was presented under the management of Kenelm Foss at The Little on November with the following A plantation of thin young in Everlasting or or Ballad of the White Regarding the comments about great modern poets still doing their I think Itinerarium or De Reductione Artium ad Theologiam should be in the be kinda neat to have read some Boccaccio or some such before reading Dante and generally on already too much literature in the there should be more medieval philosophy and more math and something by Cantor or Hilbert perhaps or perhaps just spending more time on Dedekind and a semester of Set theory and symbolic logic and a semester of geometry instead of the current senior math That would definitely help grad students one of my discoveries at grad school is that analytic philosophy is generally much more interesting than contemporary enture Isak who are these great poets doing their thing and what form and meter are they And I never appreciated Eliot until I listened to recordings of him reading his own enture More time for learning about beekeeping and vinetending should take place senior Students need more practical time to keep them in They should beef up the math so we could say something like provides the equivalent of a triple major in Philosophy and Work Study is hours of practical time a Unless you are in the parcel room enture Were there any noteworthy theses on literature this an unemployable grad who had a real job throughout the four years he was in as well as a publication in a peer reviewed enture More and dogmatic theology freshman but I know we are all in agreement with Chart Shows How Many Minutes The World Spends Looking At Screens We all love our for but exactly how much time do we spend looking at After all we can be entertained by our Ok we just add more course So all for just fixing up math and which is what the college is working on I also think that throwing in some computer science might be some really fascinating research in algorithms which could potentially complement thought about the interior just so I keep up good appearances with your you be working on your enture a great start Now you need to follow it up with a Broadway The trouble with work is you sometimes need to I had to go to DC for my first I got kicked around for a few then finally landed in a career path as a computer programming is the apotheosis of symbolic enture Is apotheosis a kind of herbal I think too much literature I just think there done But other than that I DC is  DC is awesome there should be some writing classes in the But been accused of being too I was wondering when you would make an Or just more writing But that would be more And not a fan of that enture Oh I commented earlier about the I guess this counts more as a substantive contribution And how could I stay away from a thread where you were in sir enture DC is kind of awful It was fun under I in I left it behind and it returned into my I Batman was a fantastic graphic but DC make them like that DC was awful under They moved the police forces downtown to protect against and those of us who lived outside the downtown area all got My house was also set on fire by an arsonist in year I was once there is no enture I meant not the local Oh I meant the Comic book Edward I forced my senior seminar to listen to a recording of Elliot reading the Waste I think the tutor agreed on the condition that we stay late to make up the lost discussion Needless to I was quite popular with my as Samantha Cohoe can Our tutor made us read What the Thunder Said Our tutor made us walk uphill in the both enture Sorry you got mugged and about your enture We never had tutors are We only had They made us wake up half an hour before we went to bed to read Were those enture I just Either that was a jab at Christendom or it enture it was I who was You back in Christendom College was preparing to grant federal but day two at Gettysburg go the way they The thing was Pretty slick DC is I committed a felony the instant I entered it without knowing You guys are all Here I had through of an explanation of assent of intellect and versus assent of just to find that lost by comments in This is the thread that never yes it goes on and on my some people starting commenting not knowing how ending up commenting orever just because this is the thread that never You might as well post Oh if you say I am insane for reading and commenting on I already know I am expected better of some of Well the rest of us are not really We are all still here or keep coming I go to the thread goes to Stay on better is priority followed by getting rid of some of the But they should add No Exit by it describes the dorms pretty I think the primary topic at the moment is getting to I will concede that was if you will concede that it was totally cool when I kept our Goethe seminar going the full two hours even though everyone else was in a pizza Did we have that one in old I vaguely recall it being there though that the usual And happily concede that And do you vaguely recall berating me coming from the guy who made us all stay to listen to Alrighty It is analogous to natural Remember Aquinas divides the works of Aristotle in several One distinction is between reason that produces certain knowledge and posterior another produces opinion another suspicion and another a certain inclination through fittingness The first works with necessary arguments and sound The next gives an arguments that wholly declines the mind to one side of a but leaving the either side as still just not reasonably held the evidence at The next declines the intellect to one but not by making it more The last inclines to one side through a certain Now the assent of faith is like to the in that there is certitude and an affirmation of But assent of intellect and will does not exclude the possibility of it being but does mean that the strength of authority for the position calls for an affirmation that totally declines to one side of the It is analogous to a regular person accepting the consensus of biologists about certain biological It is and to trust While also admitting an outside possibility of them being wrong when the pope or the bishops teach with but not that is strength not to exclude the possibility of another but to produce opinion and grant moral certitude can act safely on and renders it normally unreasonable to deny it it is absurd for someone who never studied that much math to dismiss non Euclidean Now it is possible that an who is well learned and studied is persuaded that such a pronouncement is He needs to ask how competent he is on the and if he cannot but in that rare instance assent of mind and intellect is not but risk of scandal should prevent public Outside of that rare one gives internal but as to an Obviously the maisterium of the pope supercedes that of a local And there is the practical difficulty in determining what the Church permits for free and what is If the CCC be considered an act of the then so was the Roman But they contradict each other on substantial At some point the majority of theologians rejected the Roman teaching on holy in spite of what appears as an act of the authentic a very real way theologians have relied on tacit consent to such our day of not condemning outright it makes it very difficult to assume tacit But that is kind of how it Berating Surely I miss senior hah you I wrote the book on TAC Also set the record for longest coffee cup toss The world record for a FB thread is can do hah It would only take about seven At this We can speed that padding is an art enture Welcome thanks for your enture Has anyone at TAC ever written a thesis on the theory of It seems to me man came from not from an Mutation is a kind of but one thing cannot evolve into I am but I just want to say how much I love and value what my alma gave I love reading those thesis And stuff to critique and even But great to know the people I know from going to and to have learned what we learned Haters gonna But lovers gonna And thank God for that place and all it did for It was good for me so were my good enture Right Everything is happening at the same Good PB why is your only concern about form and Who are the great Gee I maybe try Christian Wendell Ted Maurice Mary Mary Tomas Robert Philip Charles or Derek Or if you are okay with the recently Czeslaw Wislawa Philip Levine or how about Seamus who died last If you take your poetry straight and need it cut with the sweet traditional try Dana Richard or Timothy Recently deceased formalist poet Howard Nemerov is also This age is blessed with an embarrassment of poetic it would be the post count is growing exponentially There be ways to continue that exponential There is a method for burying trolls that hasnt been enture Brian Eno Merges With The From ANOTHER GREEN WORLD EG Records Ltd Please share well one way is to attempt to tell the monster at the end of the book in the present there is no end and a troll in the tell the monster afraid I But it doesnt work for me because an invisible I have plot details to finish I forgot about Captive would work in senior seminar Yes it But one can run away from and bury trolls in sorry I just got Me too Seriously anyone bemoaning a lack of great poets today is just crying for the bygone days without looking up to see the scenery in front of Perhaps we have good I doubt we have great What makes you say welcome your Maybe have to clarify what we mean by I saw you unlike my comment John What made you I really have enough experience to have a solid But I tend to find formless poetry My appreciation of Eliot stems from discovering that he has more form than meets the once Nieto introduced me to notion of Sprung the word great Ash for nearly always has five stresses on a even if unstressed syllables match the classical classes of poetry is he does weird things with but he almost always writes I would agree that formless poetry is But I would not agree that the poets I consider the current write Hold on a sec going to bed but just wanted to thank Isak for the I have been wondering about modern poetry recently but know where to German poetry is Schiller and Christian Riven God belonging to every riven thing made sing his being simply by being the thing it stone and tree and man who sees and sings and wonders why God to every riven thing means a storm of Think of the atoms inside the Think of the man who sits alone trying to will himself into a stillness where God goes To every riven thing made there is given one shade shaped exactly to the thing under the tree a darker under the man the only man to see God goes belonging to every riven made the things that bring him made the mind that makes him A part of what man apart from what man God goes belonging to every riven thing I didnt really appreciate poetry until i taught and meter is important as well as Another way of saying what I is that we may have many poets like Longfellow and but I found any Riven is a brand new if what you I think I can agree with But because Shakespeare is beyond as is I think we even have a Donne or Hopkins John but only one of many tools in the Hopkins at his American literature is really THE world is charged with the grandeur of It will flame like shining from shook It gathers to a like the ooze of oil Why do men then now not reck his Generations have have have And all is seared with smeared with And wears smudge and shares the soil Is bare nor can foot being And for all nature is never There lives the dearest freshness deep down And though the last lights off the black West went at the brown brink springs Because the Holy Ghost over the bent World broods with warm breast and with bright i like and ok i admit i stopped reading And i probably read less poetry than I am just always Conner is How can anyone say literature is really I really want to I find Flannery Melville is But I love Twain Melville is But i am cooling on Graham Kurt Walker William Herman Mark Nathaniel Ernest John Flannery Ray Cormac Edgar Allen David Foster Scott Jack Robert Penn really I read most of mostly because I read much literature and when I I prefer to read English that speaks for Haha probably not great but I think reading Asimov helps one understand the modern scientific point of O Connor has Its her grotesque that gives pause and the just what is she But i much prefer the music of the older poets and the The music is very Asimov is very The Caves of Steel is a personal Willa Cather My I do like My That list has a couple decent and and one I think any of those authors compare to people like Jane Austen and Gonna make me guess the Is it none are probably bet on that You mean the authors you mostly Oh I You like steinback is a terrible writer every There are a few decent but they are not where the bet comes Isak The author of East of Eden terrible I really even know how to respond to but all Can I would you explain what you mean by Maybe not really disagreeing very Wodehouse is very but I think much more than light Not that a bad of I think he has a nearly perfect command of The author of grapes of wrath cant write a Maybe east of eden is much I also think people tend to give comedy short shrift And much better at short stories than wodehouse is O Connor definitely can But there are few good at Wodehouse is definitely not better at short stories than But I suppose in the comparing those two is like comparing apples and Also no one who loves is giving comedy short as funny as they My personal theory about is that people find her confusing and confuse that with Now I refuse to novels are underrated Blood is a truly great American although her short stories might be overrated yes that I stick with the old since I read little literature Perhaps that will change I love Knut there I said Norway for the pretty hard to overrate or A View of the yes but a good man is hard to find Everyone should read of the but Knut Hamsen I see what you did You can overrate by calling her That is Of we forgetting this wonderful piece of classic American literature the by Seymour But you said what you mean by  great what one ought never tire of You Irving is good Great because i dont tire of His stories are but then I think great is as the wise man might I lean on them and find after years they are Many factors in But craft and substance are important as well as the beauty or wisdom they reveal and the wonder they I American novelists a certain person sacra doctrina A question that has been bothering me of how is the lady in of a I can also articulate at length the deficiencies of many of those I guess i mean the measure is not my ability to reread but that we either continually learn something new with each reading or delight in the story again and But the wise understand best and have best taste and in their absence good poets are guides as that time All we had at the house was Episode End of Wife I was sorely But I sell my children out like So I walked all three of em down to the village and rented Episode blue Star Wars Talk to Your Kids PSA Star Wars fan dads discuss how they will talk to their kids about Star If the in your analogy stands for Edward pretty But I would hope a better listener than a certain all read the stuff You already said you read the authors I defining great literature as which one ought never tire of is still appealing to an undefined Why one not tire of rereading such and such a Since that standard or measure is it seems to me that your definition relies too much on the What of the person who enjoys rereading or Harlequin romance Remember too that Don Quixote never tired of reading and rereading his chivalrous adventure novels and his brain dried why I said your definition is In all honesty not sure I can define a great novel or novelist And I just saw your followup Somehow my screen is not updating the thread in real I agree more with your new I do not see why articulating the deficiencies of authors makes one a better reader of By that I mean something was a so a deficient Maybe not what you If it I  just good parenting The original not bastardized original releases are possibly to be blu prior to the celebration of the fake date of To define great lit well I think you have to get a little outside philosophy and plant a foot in the worlds of both art and shoot history and Great aside from technical control and wisdom about human nature the human are also men and women of their Shakespeare and Austen wear well through the but that is not because they removed themselves from the concerns and styles of their but because they embraced them so I also therefore think that there is a good in for looking to minority writers and writers from other cultures to complete the Literature is NOT I think THE literary art form of our is because a film is always a group But re envisioning what art can be given the tools we have London made Shakespeare Gutenberg made Tolstoy the camera who ARE the greatest screenwriters and directors of our Perhaps off in thinking this open to being convinced otherwise But need real I know film lends itself to passivity in a way that reading There has always been trash literature but in film it seems from a first glance that the trash is Is that the right And not talking trash as in inappropriate but just like any summer action The way in which it entertains is and I would probably you same the same of I consider The it I think why Shakespeare would have been all over it end of Tempest and A Midsummer Nights And Tolkien said fantasy work as drama but his objections were and have been overcome by surprised me when I read it Maybe a defect in but plays are about not exploding cars and gun always liked the comparison more than the But then you have film makers who were like very dialogue focused But is that I know CGI makes me want to turn a film but I can watch a fully animated a confused jumble no clear thoughts on the Study of Thomas Aquinas College I have no speakers at and hour of Johnny a lot to ask You really do have a link for you can you Thanks for the link going on my list of things to films that inform my thinking on this would be Feast of dialogue and image color is really Twelve Angry Men a but the use of camera on faces develops it and nothing much but my girls were enthralled with the Inception is best and perhaps only done on and perhaps ends with a slick on the art of film itself as a Just thinking out As I would amend the statement film is Film when all the elements come together seamlessly can be very manipulative and the experience is more I like grouping film and but they do have narrative in Film has at its disposal so many tools to tell a story and very different tools than the way Citizen Kane works with physical Wizard of Oz and But I often find that something has to alert me to a filmic device in order that I watch the film I see and appreciate device everywhere but this might come down to at this Film might better be called than It does involve literary but be willing to say not But then what do we do with Shakespeare and Earlier it was mentioned and did the poets the epic Is it Tolkien or You especially you guys in this are not going to like the After studying the epic form and whatnot for a lot of grad the art form that these people followed was not Film is where the Tragedians and Comedians The went to video why like the idea that the epic poets went to video Despite being accused of being unable to think outside the I think that like any other rational human being are perfectly capable of thinking not only outside the but about the box Just weigh and assume I play video Is there in video Whoa there where you stand in relation to the box is no interest of I just think that scholars wouid think much of video According to research into epic as an art one of the qualifying essential criteria for an epic is that it must contain a struggle against the In the gods struggle against Zeus or the humans struggle against The drama created by that resistance is what creates the content of the and follow the same There was also a heavy element assumed to be in each though less essential and more an artifact of its Then maybe you be hanging with the wrong my Not There is no limit to what scholars take have a friend writing on video game Going back to epic and video Let me be a advocate for a moment and present an argument not my our cosmology eschews therefore the epic withers as a contemporary Not being familiar with video why are they And that certainly used to be But in a video the content itself that struggle against the The drama of overcoming the game as its plot struggles against the inevitable is what creates the content of the And the video game ignores the popular cosmology because they are intentionally made to be I They are wholly because they need to be to make So I guess a sort of Does Harry Potter count as an By the Dobby DOBBY Granted it might not be a very good but I will ask a really fundamentally dumb question about video Is there really any video game Which one was Was he the red haired Yeah there is in some of the larger but usually the video game has to break its own in order to have if a character must then all of the other tricks that the player has learned to avoid death or cheat death are taken from the taking control I Oh Lendman liked my post about He the was  I just watched the movies Never finished the I got lost in book and never came Book was the one with the Twilight Guy that died lol Oh Jeez finally of the Legend of Zelda is epic from its inception video game where you could save your all the way through the sword kinda sucked Videogame collection supports scholarly study The University of Chicago Library News After several months of fascinating discussion about emerging interest in the academic study of I am overjoyed that the University of Chicago Library has acquired its first videogame and that these games will soon be available for borrowing from the Mansueto Michael what is the you are supposedly always also doing when on Things TAC should add to the Adolf Things that should be Driesch and his stupid the SJC measurement but NOT The Faerie Queene is good and I would never have read it if it been in the Things they should not novels that everyone has read especially highly overrated novels like You are doing a lot of adding and not much The program is already pretty I agree with what Joel HF said about putting all of first year lab in That frees up some but not for Adolf Wait not The encyclicals should be taken out of and some Papal and Conciliar teachings added to is starting to sound a little We are in the Second Enlightenment of the Never Ending But since there is not properly speaking before and only above and this can really be considered the same as the First it should sound Papal and Conciliar M But you really should just have lectures about since laymen qualified to really understand or discuss divine I am not opposed to moving the Encyclicals to But I would not know what to move out of theology as You could just have them in the last class of each the way St proemium to In is done in the last class of Freshman Oh the statement that Rome made Bautain promise for now and NEVER TO TEACH that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or and the truths depending on as a science totally distinct from supernatural which is founded on divine  what I get paid for doing and thanks for the I thought I killed it with a scholarly study of Zelda On track for Heidegger added to the When I was there we had seminars at house and one in the Library with Father Sokolowski from CUA on a couple of his texts one at my memory Potter is epic non fans only or you may need I think is should be added if it already is magisterially speaking of GATSBY  How about Moar Russan White another White I think if there is more surreality would be How about to a or Does anyone ever get through the required Thomas at the end of Year to have time to add other stuff in there as Megan Caughron I just want to point out one big difference I see between live drama and It seems to me that film is a primarily visual which is why one refers to its consumers as on the other is primarily ordered to the which is why one refers to those attending as an audience You go watch a You go hear a Are you all going to get together for a party and have a shot every time is I honestly have enough time to see if this has already been but I really love this seems totally specious Just specious Pater although many have read few have read it I blame you for referring to it as but still defend it as a sacramental is not a term of literary When will you ever learn whoops that was for So but only Haha And when the author himself uses the language of incarnation and I think justified in referring to it as So  Am too enture I do like Seamus His translation of Beowulf was My concern about form and metre is that even the formless poets have some Their words fall into some The days of heroic couplets may be they may not work but what is the form I would add some Kafka know people have read The Cherry Orchard or the and some lyric poetry of the English Ivan now I am getting too far ahead and not sure what is a book at that but would like to incorporate how the suffering of Twentieth century is it still being only of lit I would enture I think American literature is It is curious that it does not rise to the In Mark Longfellow the last great American None of them break out into epic which is Because every great age has had poets that do and America is arguably the greatest nation This may be because American greatness is about the little guy with unalienable rights fighting for and because America is built around eternal rights of the Other covilizations which housed the greater poets provided more societal Poets needs to become more spiritual in America before they will be able to connect the dots of Just a But what form would that Anne Schniederjan Cover Of The Rolling of the rolling is property of and producers promoters and is used here pursuant to the fair use provision of the DMCA enture There have been a series of great novellae throughout the ages that all have the same character with a similar Sam Evelyn Ordeal of Gilbert and Gunter Cat and and The Great The Novella is an interesting But no great American Just toss outs that end up in Store of Used what about taking out Don Unless someone else has already mentioned Also I see why we need two Freud I agree about adding Scotus and Bonaventure also make a big ole push for the power of the But I just think a damn fine essay enture Denzinger and Ott are two of the best we might as well say you could fix almost all the problems with pacing and cover if you just added a fifth everything needed quotation FOR Some lengthier Criticism is but not just Below is a start on distinguishing truly great literature from the slop of recent Much more needs to be To the question of what is and important question for a program that sometimes at least claims to be great books other times I believe Adler defines it as Others as what time If the we call anything great but must leave it for the next But are there any criteria by which we may I agree entirely with the view of picking out those books that have developed our present Not merely that at and ESPECIALLY so in literature equally so in the reason is that I regard the rise of modernity and literature as a rejection of the ancients and the Whereas Aquinas had the luxury well as of picking out anything that was finely or rightly said by contemporary and ancient we are now more involved in a war rather than a Swift illustrates this in his intro to the Tale of Tub in one of my favorites Battle of the He demonstrates this poetically which I think I can demonstrate in bits and pieces But as to literature or poetry and what qualifies as a few problems for recent novels is true of most American novels and a lot of In fact I recommend Rip van Winkle which is my favorite short American story I just realized as a kid I had his perhaps a part of the grand divine The most significant change in the revolution I see therein is the loss of without which the poetic arts suffer One thing poetry poetry that is though not necessarily does is hold a mirror up to society aim being to concretize truth or point to beauty Chad Ripperberger has an excellent essay on I believe on his site Poetry can be more helpful for this because prudential judgement and politics are based on the Since we have no experience of the poet an excellent can show us what we cannot see ourselves and so aid us in making generalizations and Before reading Michael book and I had difficulty understanding what distributism but in that he showed it kind of side point of He presented facts that one our love of Hamlet these days play derided and unliked until this is a mirror for what most ails and after many years I think I finally see the horror of that THAT is one measure of the good Can he hold a mirror to society Tennyson does in which Eliot gives as an example of a perfect poem and I could write a few interesting comments on that ANOTHER is it Does it direct us to love of the I see that in ode to And the music is important especially in the because in odes are akin very much to hymns and even the same kind of thing we are attuned to the truly beautiful and truth For this reason a poet like Tennyson is well worth Even if his subject matter was less than his ear for the music of language is one of the in that he is The problem of much recent writing is the poet himself has lost the very purpose of These are just a couple The aim of comedy is more to hold up a mirror and by means of irony to point out the flaws as for Thus I must is as ironic as Plato indeed perhaps taught the Greeks that So many of his lines surpass anything written since like shed a light Can one ever fail to smile at Does it lose its Is it not still true to this The irony of what Achilles does immediately after proclaiming his everlasting love for But almost every line of Homer is full of like Agammenon on his For as Aristotle points is the humor of the wise man indeed he too is full of something to Isak your taste in literature is obviously which I really mean that the fact that you mentioned David Foster about whom I am writing a endears you to So introduced some doubt into my mind about But the problem with Gatsby seems to me that one never really cares about the Sure they symbolize cool stuff and but all they do the characters in Faerie Queene enture I think in modern the heroic couplet has fallen like the pieces of a broken and the metal hoops that bind them and the the broken and the modern poet picks them all up in his and with his hands rearranges He makes it going If it sounds no poetics in poetry these enture Is David Foster Wallace worth doing a dissertation He wrote about substance abuse The Pale King is all broken I read Should I put him on my enture Without a The Great Gatsby is the first great American enture is the best Oft when the World imagine Women The Sylphs mystick Mazes guide their all the giddy Circle they And old Impertinence expel by What tender Maid but must a Victim fall To one but for When Florio what Virgin could If gentle Damon did not squeeze her With varying from They shift the moving Toyshop of their Where Wigs with with Beaus banish and Coaches Coaches This erring Mortals Levity may Oh blind to the Sylphs contrive it enture With varying from They shift the moving Toyshop of their enture Where Wigs with with Beaus banish and Coaches Coaches enture This erring Mortals Levity may Oh blind to the Sylphs contrive it Gatsby is horse Great for marketing The first true soap Much like the enture You back that Gatsby is a great in form and content and lyrical X worth writing a dissertation A question only possible for someone who has blissfully never written a Rolling Why are we talking about It think it plain that studying both poetry and fiction add drama is a complete waste of time in I think there should be a seminar drinking Every time someone cherishes their pet crackpot literary theory everyone takes a Poetry HAS to be read out There any other way to do I am in complete disbelief that somebody suggested taking Don out of the For me how much I got out of the literature seminars came down to which tutor I Some tutors were able to make the works and while with others all I got out of it was what I got out of it by reading But I disagree that they are a waste of nonono the literature the waste of Just the class I think pretty much So much to respond So little But maybe that makes you But I am still interested to see what Pater would take out of the program in order to insert the names he suggested The more I like a book the more I hated doing a seminar on being totally I had to walk out of a few of them because I take the relentless plot and character Heidegger is not in the I think both Don Q and W and P are elegantly situated to predict some of the questions that motivate the other I found classes on them highly frustrating first of there were two Not say or on the earlier stuff I also liked on Death of Ivan Ilych and Murder in the But seminars were also frustrating because people were all over the enture Study literature as because it supports metaphysics and faith at the same Still a problem with the faithful being attracted towards the great secular literary as the early Christian clergy were drawn towards the pagan We need the light of the pagan but also need the pull enture Thomas Aquinas was a great His Christ is a merciful a Adoro te latens Quæ sub his figuris vere Tibi se cor meum totum Quia te contemplans totum gustus in te Sed auditu solo tuto Credo quidquid dixit Dei Nil hoc verbo veritátis In cruce latebat sola At hic latet simul et Ambo tamen credens atque Peto quod petivit latro sicut non Deum tamen meum te Fac me tibi semper magis In te spem te O memoriale mortis Panis vitam præstans Præsta meæ menti de te Et te illi semper dulce Pie Jesu Me immundum munda tuo Cujus una stilla salvum facere Totum mundum quit ab omni quem velatum nunc fiat illud quod tam Ut te revelata cernens Visu sim beátus tuæ Don is the perfect to the authors read in junior And we also had really good on Murder in the Cathedral and although mostly thanks to the enture The symbolism of the mother pelican feeding her baby pelicans with her own flesh and blood is rooted in an ancient legend which preceded This tradition is found in the an early Christian which appeared in the second century in Sean Goethe on color and Portmann would replace the Measurement Heidegger and Wittgenstein would replace the magisterial texts in senior And and Calvin could be included by having sophomore seminar twice a enture Don Q is important because it precedes the modern English and it is best of the Spanish in the tradition of the chivalric part of a whole trend that lasted Once upon a time in a senior seminar long long there was a girl who was so derailing in conversation that all the other students would only ignore She claimed that many of the texts were not worth the She coped by at first hiding Jane Austen novels behind her other but then grew so angry at the disregard that she read them trying to draw attention to herself and holding the book upright on the That made reading literature Katie Duda Don Q needs at least or seminarrs if not There are some things that seem worth doing but with a book like rather take it out which is why I suggested I a little defeatist of enture from the RELIGION NEWSWRITERS VA Immediate Eastern Christian Publications announces the publication of a series of original Catholic devotionals entitled The Blessed Book of written by Jonathan Featuring virtually every animal named in the it uses classical literary forms from Although not sure that there is room in the theology tutorial for those magisterial the chosen encyclicals generally are at least partially in response to the works read in senior so keeping them in there helps continuity in the I They move those texts individually to immediately follow the texts to which they relate most Generis after Pascendi after Jung et instead of just throwing them in at the And I wonder how possible it would be to have sophomores do two seminars a I think that might do more harm than enture You need to get more magisterial texts and doctrine into the curriculum It is the glue that binds the airplane without which the kids will never enture If you put more magisterial texts in the you can build bigger Can I get real excited about my crackpot literary theory enture enture theory of literary I definitely agree that those things need longer but I still think worthwhile to do It does occur to me that my appreciation for Don reach its fullness until the The thing with almost every work we read in it really needs a much more thorough We only skim the surface with most of those works I think we do a pretty good job given the when I have to remind myself that the curriculum is really just a And that do a pretty good comment probably applies more to the philosophers in seminar than the enture Has anyone looked at the metaphysical art and theory of Carl His grandchildren and great grandchildren have gone to Thomas Aquinas I studied art theory and criticism for about a and I think read anything quite so on the I just wish he wrote He basically says the artist imposes form on and unities in and then shares this in the form of his work of This is aligned with orthodox mysticism of the East and Western avoids modern art heresies such as and bridges the gap between the classical formalists and the It gets us around the Carl Schmitt enture You need a trained literary It took years to figure out what Pope was But a good teacher can demonstrate that in It is a balance of trust between the tutor and the I believe Carl Schmitt was a tutor in the early days of the before he went off to found the Trivium School to prepare highschoolers for according to they did read Calvin at some I remember exactly why he said they removed but I think they either wanted to add something they thought was better or they generally found the discussions to be a waste of As far as Scotus not sure be worthwhile at not because it important to read but so complicated that need more time than the program has to how about Edward no that was John Schmitt was the scary German Jurist who wrote Political enture Speaking of the Christian if anyone wants a copy of the first one written since the Middle please log on Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of enture that was Carl son who taught at TAC and founded the You may be related to him by marriage thrice I just find it incredibly curious how Schmitt NAILED art but TAC begins with Euclid and spends about one day on Thomas Aquinas mastered the Philosophy Theology Art enture Sacred theology Metaphysics Philosophy Theology enture Art is just a It comes from the skill of the and how he views the How he views the world depends on how he has and This informs the and his So are you jettisoning literature for more Philosophy and Theology at the seminar I but I think too much more philosophy would dramatically increase burnout Kierkegaard delenda est Because is or because the classes on it are or enture With all due I do not think anyone from Thomas Aquinas College understands the critical importance of a new art theory of The founders and the tutors of the college could not explain the formal and material elements of metaphor and enthymeme if the world depended on The tutors force you to study logical syllogism for two but deny metaphor is a syllogism of and the enthymeme of the The curriculum is unable to deliver the transcendentals in a unified there is no point reading It undercuts what it sets out to literature analysis always feels like a waste of time to is a syllogism of is a metaphor is a syllogism of is a blooming is a enture metaphor is a syllogism of beauty is Woman is a rose is an example of a But what is Tom Kaiser tell you what a metaphor A metaphor is a syllogism that informs the imagination and leads to Art is The enthymeme is like but in relation to the will and to the This is what Aristotle teaches in his analytics and movement of But you do not teach any of this at so the whole thing undercuts here it enture It also undercuts the who thirsts for transcendental This is because the human soul is one in reason and I always considered to be trancendentistry enture That reminds I have to call the ortho for my Thank Her teeth will be flocks of each one with its I assume by you mean but assuming an awful lot when you say TAC understand And metaphor is not a either regular or enture You deny a lot of things in your ignorance and universally convert TAC with Metaphor IS a kind of It has a with an implied leading to a reasonable conclusion by Rose is beautiful Woman is rose Woman is beautiful Enthymeme is a kind of syllogism Aristotle states this in transcendtal unity means the spiritual unity of the good and Logical syllogism only leads to Metaphor to enthymeme to imagination and heart For the Michael you just denied all But this is what Aristotle and Thomas as well as Cicero and many but you do not learn this at TAC because it was establish by reactionary AND OFF your inner Linda Blair is coming out Your example above shows the metaphor to be the minor which a unless speaking in synecdoche synecdoche syllogism either enture Both metaphor and enthymeme are a kind of as the Philosopher just as is a kind of enthymeme is a kind of Bk with an implied as is the each leading to reasonable conclusions in imagination and will the you are not competent on this You are like someone denying that Micky Mantle was a baseball the form of the syllogism is the same form as transcendental with each form corresponding with the various parts of the one human soul imagination and May I confirm that pb is trying to distinguish himself as a master of maybe he should quote the whole passage t is that rhetorical in its strict is concerned with the modes of Persuasion is clearly a sort of since we are most fully persuaded when we consider a thing to have been The demonstration is an and this in the most effective of the modes of The enthymeme is a sort of and the consideration of syllogisms of all without is the business of either of dialectic as a whole or of one of its It follows that he who is best able to see how and from what elements a syllogism is produced will also be best skilled in the when he has further learnt what its is and in what respects it differs from the syllogism of strict enture Synechdoche is just when you take a part of something and use it to stand for the and it has nothing to do with I think you just throw it in there to try to sound like which is because you are both but you fail to admit what you do not and deny truths which are such as a thing is defined by its metaphor and enthymeme have the form of a which is why the Philosopher defines them as a kind of we TACers who read the Analytics and the Poetics and the Rhetoric remember passages like this which show that metaphor is not a syllogism but a way of using the name of one thing to signify is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to or from species to or from species to or by that Thus from genus to lies my for lying at anchor is a species of From species to ten thousand noble deeds hath Odysseus for ten thousand is a species of large and is here used for a large number From species to blade of bronze drew away the and the water with the vessel of unyielding Here draw is used for and again for each being a species of taking Analogy or proportion is when the second term is to the first as the fourth to the We may then use the fourth for the or the second for the Sometimes too we qualify the metaphor by adding the term to which the proper word is Thus the cup is to Dionysus as the shield to The cup be called shield of and the shield cup of as old age is to so is evening to Evening may therefore be old age of the and old evening of in the phrase of setting For some of the terms of the proportion there is at times no word in still the metaphor may be For to scatter seed is called but the action of the sun in scattering his rays is Still this process bears to the sun the same relation as sowing to the Hence the expression of the poet the There is another way in which this kind of metaphor may be We may apply an alien and then deny of that term one of its proper as if we were to call the not cup of but wineless IT DIFFERS FROM THE SYLLOGISM OF STRICT LOGIC I wonder if you know what I just quoted of course everything beitia learned about aristotle he learned at tac bwahahahaha how you former pretty the big and When are you coming up school does restrict my wandering a bit as does the fam mine yes and I know you love enture one thing to another to another to know what you do not and another to need to look like the smartest guy in the hyperbole  enture Metaphor has also been described as analogy of inverse by how it predicates the attributes of one thing to another by and uses the form of a as does the restate unlisten I am beginning to suspect that Perigrine is on the payroll of TAC to draw students away from the man can derail a conversation as fast as he can start enture charming how TAC denies truth outside the range of its Peter is a Does this mean Peter is a lifeless mass of compressed Implied major All rock is solid and a good Peter is a rock Peter is a solid foundation Metaphor is a kind of syllogism John Enthymeme is a kind of truncated epichyreme is also a kind of multipremised The virtuous leader opposes tyranny Political walls restrain with tyranny tear down that wall metaphor is a species of enture You derailed And it was never a an ideological polemic launched by a sycophant under the guise of taking the names of Thomas and Aristotle and the Catholic Faith in It goes like Equivocation Equivocation by chance Equivocation by design in which the intended meaning is not a meaning of the word in which the intended meaning is a meaning of the word There may be a process that justifies a but metaphor is of an enture Then why does it have the form of a is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to or from species to or from species to or by that definition and division of metaphor enture No one said it was an mt straw man a reasonable play on imagination in the form of a Syllogism just is a greek word meaning argument also a word people who are trying to sound the smartest guy in the enture the anology by inverse proportion And how come you answer the If metaphor and enthymeme are not a kind of why do they take the form of a I admit enthymeme is a that is an I deny that metaphor enture Syllogism is a enture Metaphor is a reasonable appeal to the enthymeme to the This is why they have the same reasonable form as just in denial because this was not in your enture The reasonableness in form is a cause of transcentental just asserting the things your teachers told you to enture unity between beauty and in a rational soul comprised of will and enture My teachers were the Great They did not force me to drink enture Your teachers told you to drink the of the At least at TAC willing to admit that the Great Books for the most part teach enture What does metaphor mean in Herr Beyond o how can one call a metaphor a Perhaps we need to start at the What is a noun for enture so you do need a Is this was admitting too oh I guess I missed my window to talk about literature at carrying enture Why you answer the Herr Why does a metaphor and an enthymeme have the same form as a rational The name of one thing is to signify another thing I enthymeme metaphor of course we need We can hardly be expected to indoctrinate enture Thank and what is carried across in a Because metaphor is a way of using not a way of arguing As I the word is carried enture That is not an It is a false It is evident they have the same If the metaphor and enthymeme are not both kinds of then why do they both have the same This is the form of a Beatrice is a in fixing TAC I like Pater suggestions for the most also take out Billy and and halve the amount of time spent reading the Founding Fathers and I should an example of a metaphor enture Herr the predication is carried Learn your The predicate attribute of the implied major is carried across to the which leads to a reasonable act of the I am starting to think its really maybe not He is so thoroughly I was joking above but his inability to make distinctions reveals very fundamental And metaphor involve syllogism but it can involve enture Just I was just seeing if you were The subject of the major premise is carried into the position of the predicate of the the minor to carry the predicate in the major across to the reasonable act of the Now could you please write that on the board enture the carrying Just like the middle term carries across knowledge from better known to newly is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to or from species to or from species to or by that As Aristotle what metaphor signifies directly is something about the imposition of It might use a analogy to justify that but a analogy a enture Beatrice is a rose is also the form of a minor premise with an implied Same for the Both are reasonable going from better known to newly carrying over through a which is the carrying over enture If is a is the Herr then what can we conclude from this enture The enture Can we conclude that Beatrice has and enture Does Beatrice have perhaps you have Could be He know what syllogism is or this is a But can he be We may be dealing with I need to reread that dialogue enture Or is there something else implied in a kind of enture Is this implication not an appeal to the enture Does it not lead to something using the same form as a syllogism and an maps lead to something maps are syllogisms Do syllogisms and enthymemes have the same and if they then what is there pb is proof that Faith requires Lacking the fullness of the Faith is inaccessable to  enthymeme is probable sometimes it elides one of the It is proper to rhetoric whereas true syllogism is proper to logic I am afraid The Never Ending Thread has entered another Dark enture They the enthymeme has an implied major It leads to a reasonable act of the will toward the All good men desire Milk is good for adding enthymeme can only cause more He has NO idea what syllogism But they have the same or Michael and you guys can be the Irish monks that preserve culture and learning until we can come to a more civilized Your enture Maps have a middle Metaphors and enthymemes enture Langley caused this Dark Age by denying the enture they do have the same The difference is that the major premise is One premise will get you FYI PB and I cant see each I was excommunicated by him before TNET What if enture They have the same All three depend on two premises and a middle The form carries over something The form is the The content is The content of the entymeme is The content of the metaphor is I thought aristotle says that enthymeme is an argument based signs and his example from the prior analytics is something like you can guess that a philosophers are wise from the fact that socrates was it might also be true that one is and typically is which is why in the rhetoric aristotle gives that as a description of the enture I would submit to the that if the metaphor did not take the same form as a then is a is nothing more than a false For Beatrice is not a HATH BEATRICE HATH HER his other example from the prior analytics is something about lactating mammals being which sound like a example very I think often confusion about this because enthymeme is so typical in rhetoric one tends to forget it in other enture Beatrice hath no I would the metaphor is more than a single a false there is an implied which is the form of is a hath not the form of a two premises do of guarantee that you have a even if there is an implied it is outside of the unless you Beatrice is a pretty thing all pretty things are roses Beatrice is a rose enture Plus it is very Even in political The implied major premise is often the content of much of the the as it the forming the connection with the The enthymeme is the punch Having connected with the you then move them where you want them to But it only really works when its or when all good men lose their and in which are improper you have to take into account the meaning of the speaker which custom or context have you checked out the formal treatment of enthymeme in the prior an the perplexities in this debatable debate on metaphors is analogous the on fundamentals of enture Augustine is all Augustine is all is a metaphor enture Reagan was the only President in modern times who used enthymeme and metaphor mb if you were more explicit he might get syllogisms require propositions and metaphor needs terms why just assert the same thing over and over not if by enthymeme you mean proceeding from signs or as aristotle Signs and likelihoods do not attain perfect universality which is why enthymemes are not the dici de omni and dici de nullo do not apply to but these are the principes of the enture At when they read they try to extract the content and make syllogisms out of because they know how to spot a rhetorical appeal if it kicked them in the which in no way responds to the objection Philip just but resorts to rhetorical appeal has a time and a place to take the rhetoric present in all the sciences to some extent because ethics is a universal knowledge in the sense that everything we do has a bearing on our thoughts it is extremely unfair to say nobody at TAC is moved by the rhetoric of many of us have been profoundly moved by his You people are STILL I am beginning to wonder when this thread will officially become the walking undead and start demanding BRAAAAINS i am not clear what you were asking The need for rhetoric depends on the audience If the listener cannot or wont follow syllogistic it should be Of course poetry is often Though a is poetry I guess I was thinking about the emotional and authoritative means of presence everywhere is pretty though I identify enthymeme and Enthymeme is use all over the strictly philosophical disciplines for when aristotle confirms the immateriality of the soul by its increase in strength after knowing a very intelligible that fact is true of imagination and memory so the conclusion does not follow of enthymeme tends to get classed as solely I because the contingent subject matter of politics lends itself to this weaker form of this and the argument called what trying to say is that it seems impossible to me for a making a speech about what to do in the to use a syllogism because the subject matter lacks the necessity for that kind of it is not a matter of the attention span of the that is the reason for the shortening of the not for its use in the first I think there is a common misconception about what the enthymeme and how it is related to but I would point to the formal treatment of argument in the prior analytics as the key place to look and understand the other more particular texts under its universal what happened to flew away i agree with what you say except maybe about As described in the they are more improbable than But i still understand your initial To be they are often seldom you argue by example when you recommend a restaurant that you ate at last it was good for so probably be good for you do we not use rhetoric even say which is a purely speculative and if what justifies I proposed an but I run it by any wise men yet for so I figured I should take the opportunity while you guys are all here and talking about more or less related regarding speaches on future that is true and one cause for democracies trending toward need for what is But the examples of example in the rhetoric are far more I keep what do you my regarding enthymeme in does Aquinus use there is nothing impossible about though Do I read comments and catch up because Philip Knuffke has joined the i recall off the top of my what did you have in just get your feet wet with the last coulple hundred and hop I actually never even saw the mea fables could you say more what enture I agree the enthymeme needs to be with the treatise on valid and invalid syllogisms in the for immoral persuasion relies on a flawed implied as an imperfect syllogism relies on a flawed explicit But the book of Rhetoric introduces the enthymeme by name as a kind of truncated the major premise of which is Then something very fantastical In On the Motion of or in the book which goes by that the enthymeme is described in a metaphor of the joint in the leg of an the implied major is like the lower part of the the minor explicit term is like the upper part of the and when the two terms align around the middle the leg straightens causing the animal to The conclusion is the The implied major sits firm on an immovable which is an ethical or an uncaused hahahahaha off to Mass fables used as examples from which to derive decisions for future enture We use metaphor and logic altogether in We because man knows with his which is all of will and imagination The sapiential philosophies use all In fides et and lumen for when writing in the form of a sapiential we see the pope write in metaphor and syllogism all at the same I would be happy to send you a few examples in a We went over this a bit in a previous discussion with I Does the holy father make one argument to be an and metaphor all at the same As to your earlier I still maintain that you are giving a typical characteristic of an enthymeme as a definition of the text from the parts of animals is an illustration of that typical Philip are you talking to I guess i will restate my question to your do you think Aquinus uses rhetoric in I have certainly seen Aristotle use rhetoric in his work but have not read his in a long what about do you think that enthymeme is a species of what are all the species of if it a why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the and if it is a why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed and metaphor all i cant see anything pb assume that is why michael was yes I and why you see HE BLOCKED I take it this conversation was rather heated in the distant Its the only reason i joined the I saw TAC alum beating up an imaginary you are a TAC  he blocked me I am anathema to pope i because i compared the CCC to the catechism of Trent on another The schism rocked the facebook world i am not Which adds to the And i had come to his back to our calm and dispassionate I was thinking that were you or I to write a paper on a metaphysical we would for sure pay attention to rhetorical why is I suggested that it was because our will and emotions can help or hinder our intellectual so we must take that aspect of the reader into do you think Thomas did maybe we could say that rhetoric moves the will of the but through the mediation of the hence good writing makes parallel scentence structure for parallel ideas and uses repetition and so the intellect is also moved by the imagination in a certain so to the extent that it the way you order your imaginings but this managed by No more posting the number of comments AS a he will often pull this support the major premise of an main syllogism above and support the minor premise of an main syllogism below so that the two premises of the main syllogism are placed right next to each other at the center of the rhetorical stroke of talking about enture The Pope in his encyclical uses the the enthymeme and the syllogism all at the same in the same sentence and Then he uses the conclusion thereof and does it introducing established principles of sacred to shed new light of is the same argument all three at enture rhetoric moves through the through the logic through But they all have the same enture the same is all three at It is an appeal to the whole of the Is he just making it easier to follow the do you that seems impossible to but you never answered my series of questions what is your solution to the I see the I only see that he orders the argument in such away as to make it most easily grasped by the What am I once you solve I would like to see your analysis of the proposed argument which is at once a a and an I think it is possible to appeal to the whole by the without this three arguments in one You are talking to PB which is the art that teaches the rules of how todo that if not and to I But that is not employment of or I agree that any even the will take into consideration the reader or it is true that the art of rhetoric should be employed in all writing or speaking contrary of which I stated you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to rhetoric to and logic to But there are a number of difficulties in the soul of a rhetorical says is the the appeal to and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric moves the imagination as for example the parallel groupings of these move and delight our imaginations and through our imaginations move our wills and your division is unclear logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from proemium to the posterior if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry heart the natural for is defined by the emotions of pity and the heart enters the very definitions of the species of the of speech moves us for though got a great it fit well into any of the traditional means of I wonder where aristotle put these Rhetoric is the of persuasion according to the available de People are persuaded in three by an appeal to the reason and the enthymeme has been called the the emotions and in the good good and good Rhetoric is not but the good rhetorician knows his Rhetoric is the great civic And while rhetoric may involve and poetry may be they are too different The aim of poetry is the aim of rhetoric is The aim of logic is not just plain Rhet I think people are making things way harder and more complicated than they or need to But the aim of poetry is various and employs more or less rhetoric both as to the and depending what kind it is as a Platonic dialogue or a tragedy or The aim of poetry as such as When aim is to it becomes Poetic but And be I mean rhetoric as in the whole shebang Not just and Just was a Middle Ages Renaissance Over and Some poetry is other poetry can be declamation It is not all one What is the end of the Middle ages and Renaissance thought it was much more than that it is more of late century Bonaventure I will wait for your answers to my Please leave me does Plato employ rhetoric in his dialogues which are philosophical but at the same time unmetered poetry of a kind seems to fall under remember he says poetry employs enture And the three cannot be they go together because the soul is And the true and beautiful can only be fully attained in and each appeals to these parts of the Logic syllogism reason Poetry metaphor imagination Rhetoric enthymeme will They all have the same Different There is such as think as a poetic or rhetorical this is truly astonishing to I have never heard anyone else claim Are there any prominent thinkers such as Thomas or Aristotle who think this is the or do they in fact hold you are still refusing to answer my enture Honestly Megan have you studied Rhetoric at more than the freshman level of i am beginning to suspect that you enture what was your I have been coming and there was a list of I can copy and paste them if you or you could just read back up a few they were about the relation of enthymeme to here you what about what are all the species of do you think that enthymeme is one of the species of if it a why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the and if it is a why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed and metaphor all you would never make a list of and and here are the objections to the proposed division of and syllogism and the corresponding powers of the you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to rhetoric to and logic to But there are a number of difficulties in the soul of a rhetorical says is the the appeal to and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric moves the imagination as for example the parallel groupings of these move and delight our imaginations and through our imaginations move our wills and your division is unclear logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from proemium to the posterior if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry heart the natural for is defined by the emotions of pity and the heart enters the very definitions of the species of Plato is a funny He is a philosopher who uses rhetoric and is rendered poetically But saying we when we communicate is not a big Saying a poet is like saying a dancer the reason important to separate rhet from philosophy is because rhet conceives language as Severing language from truth would be the risk concern about and the modern fascination with poetry used as rhetoric has a and that name is Im just throwing this out there in case someone finds it If you wave of I apologize for the lack of manners from Aw Mr Nice of you to say enture Logos is the first form of rhetoric which links it to logic and By it is the art of getting someone to DO so its aim is the Logos informs the art with morality and Poetry leads to as Megan points the aim of poetry is the The form of poetry is the which is informed by the Logos in the form of For metaphor requires an implied premise as well as the metaphor Beauty is first an appeal to the Beauty becomes more than a gazing when it is joined with truth and Unless this beauty turns These three things go If they fall the good and true become Having the same form keeps them Logos is the first form of all Plato is a good as Megan points They all go so people mistake him sometimes for a sometimes for a since you deal with rhetoric would you mind answering my questions about enthymeme and Everyone agrees that enthymeme is present in but i think the claim that syllogism is there is then we can have a conversation about how metaphors are arguments and whether or not they also are syllogisms or imply I think that is even more what if we begin with this you say an enthymeme is a syllogism with a premise are you saying that the enthymeme is a kind of a species of If would you mind listing all of them and we can examine by what they are distinguished the one from the This I clarify our discussion As Plato teaches us in the no more long just dialectical questioning and enture Aristotle states that enthymeme is a kind of Langley Aristotle describes it is a truncated syllogism with an implied OK so where does he say I wonder if it might be best to say that syllogism there is meant meaning proceeding from general or something like In this the truths completely signs and likelihoods as is taught in the formal treatise on the prior what say i am not going to fight except one For rhetoric includes more than you Preaching is a part of the art of Persuation is not merely aimless It includes convincing others of truth and convicting them of sin orally or by enture Rhetoric argument proceeding from general truths is This is what Topics is This is the form that Thomas uses in the This relies on the form of logical He also incorporates Rhetoric is the counterpart to If all good men desire good and milk is good for then it is reasonable to drink The enthymeme is Milk is good for It is reasonable because it is in the form of It is a kind of Same form as a logical different Different matter because deals with those political things other than philosophy and revelation that cannot be demonstrated with but cleaved to because they are good and or it can be used to persuade someone to do something good that is in keeping with a golden what if I proceed more directly agianst your position like the fact that you state in spoken words the full two premises of an argument is utterly accidental to the reasoning that goes on in your and therefore that fact cannot be a specific difference of any species of I tried to give an account of what syllogism might mean but it seems absurd to say that it means the same as when said the demonstrative Even more the the two if you of the third act of which are the foundation of the syllogism dici de omni and dici de cannot apply to the contingent truths about which rhetoric You simply cannot make those kinds of statements about human Try to make a syllogism the conclusion of which is the US should go to enture Because for you to have certain where the conclusion is absolutely you need two explicit premises and a middle enture Just as if you want to jump from A to you need a limb with two parts and a joint in I maintain that the certitude of the conclusion is caused by two CERTAIN premises which it so happens usually must be though not Anyone with experience of Elements has made not only but demonstrative syllogisms so fast that they could not state in words at the pace with which their minds were drawing necessary enture You need in other so that you know the cause on which the new knowledge The conclusion is the new It is derived from the major premise through a middle term to the minor Metaphor and syllogism do the same only premises are have you studied the Elements of you always need to the question is whether you need to explicitly state them out enture I have seen these fast I myself was not one of like to correct something I said a bit It the certitude of the premises that cause an argument to be a it is the universality of one of that is the real cause for the conclusion following of Whether or not the conclusion is itself necessarily true depends on the certitude of the The enthymeme proceeds from premises that are general but not and therefore the conclusion does not follow of The dialectical syllogism proceeds from universal truths but only probable so the conlusion necessarily but is only probable or The demonstrtative syllogism proceeds from universal certain truths so its conclusion necessarily follows and is necessarily What do you think of my We can continue this need to Good aah you let him off the hook enture and I think I think for scientific you just need to see two premises and a middle and a conclusion in your You do not need to speak unless you are demonstrating a scientific proof to The unstated premise of the enthymeme is not known to be universally It is just a maxim that is politically accepted by a You do not want to say it as a because you are not trying to get someone to agree that something is universally you are just trying to move someone to do Instead of stating a major you want to build With a you definitely do not want to state the major because it is not an appeal to the real but the imaginary through an analogy of inverse is this a complete waffle from the before John Ruplinger you are entirely and I know what I said to make you think I would disagree w that Rhetoric is powerful and and can be used for evil and should be used for I thought that was just have one per We can divide logic into two one reason insofar as it is an act of and this is One is the act of simple which is dealt with in the Predicaments The other is that of which is treated in Peri Hermenias The other part is reason insofar as it proceeds from one thing to and this can be divided into The first is when reason with logical to new truth with and this is called judicative or analytical And this is divided into one is formal the syllogism which is dealt with in the Prior The other is material which deals with the soundness of and this in the Posterior reason may be led to an affirmation by and this is which can be divided into three Faith and opinion is when reason is totally inclined to one part of a although fear of the and this is treated by the there is suspicion when reason is inclined to one but not And this is treated by the In estimation the mind is inclined to some part of a contradiction because of some beautiful aspect or and the Poetics treat of Lastly reason may be led to and this is treated in the Sophistical The difference between poetry and rhetoric is rhetoric still involves a form of illative albeit but poetry does not elucidate an argument but rather gives an inclination through by its You are all very welcome recently reread commentaries on the Peri hermenias and Posterior r Pope appeal to authority is the weakest form of according to Did anyone mention surpassing really grateful this conversation is still going I feel like someone should be assigning readings to accompany the Neverending enture for the it is often inopportune to state a major The threat of an enemy can sometimes not be stated to a civilised It is however imperative that majority support be So a variety of means may be One may persuaded to vote for a leader because he sees it as a way out of economic but the hidden premise may be that a change of party is needed for national make the case for taking out some philosophy from Senior The philosophy of history sets itself up nicely for Feuerbach and thence but Phenomenology of Spirit is too dense to be treated in such a short i think right Michael Beitia we should probably read Hegel more slowly as an extra credit hour just take out Phenomenology of Spirit and replace it with Heidegger later a simple fix trying to stuff is Or perhaps I should respond to voting is for chumps How do you understand anything after Hegel without reading I think also more waffles should be added to the did they still have those belgian waffle makers on Sundays when you went Hegel was What are you talking I did my thesis on Hegel Did you say it should be removed or did I miss just Phenomenology of not Philosophy of History Also yes there were we have any belgian waffle makers just the regular ones i I loved those do it yourself waffle if you could fight through the children I do think we need to take the Phenomenology of Spirit unless going to spend weeks on People make the mistake of thinking that because one of his earliest works that if not at least more approachable than the Encyclopedia or the Science of That seems false to problem you have all day to study and can do a full hour of adoration I used to go to the Indult at in was trid my last year only once a month while I was there hil of Right should be TAC cant handle Phenom of Spirit on why I maintain keeping philosophy of It is and leads well into Feuerbach and Marx the morning mass switched to always trid yeeessssss JAson so I Nina I would like to see a bit of the history of if you ask but I think that would be contrary to to read on but I write my thesis on but some years ago I did make a Hegelian facebook illustrated with TACers and Roy and Pat Ride a Unicycle One realizes the other has a has before it another it has come outside This has a double First it has lost its own since it finds itself as an other it has thereby sublated that for it does not regard the other as essentially but sees its own self in the It in the first present the aspect of the disparity of the or the of the middle term into the qua are opposed to one and of which one is merely while the other only With commentary by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel Catherine Ryland hard because Metaphysics is in senior so one would have to line it up later in the but when seminar FINALLY makes it toward the century We should probably just create a new school maybe a year hey just trying to tie up loose Petersonian threads Society on an upward corkscrew and And world Thus my comprehension of More time was probably you forgot the world spirit realizing itself in freedom we want sound No she said you indifferent about the But I get these weird craving for the tamales they used to of ALL things  They never had tamales when we were Or truth of is and the truth of substance is the Notion an independence though into distinct independent yet in that repulsion is and in the movement of reciprocity still at home and conversant only with Hegel Logic Of only the class of remembers the ostrich I Matthew Peterson and I have a story about ostrich In the early there used to be a which we took to calling Do Ostrich was the mystery meat of our freshman Or was it the leave it to He was the one with the keys to the kitchen over Christmas Oh I mean Erin and I overlap I there for the  enture Another reason rhetoricians do not reveal a major premise is because an audience is not moved to the good all at but Whereas scientific knowledge is grasped all at a speaker may lead an audience away from violence by telling them about beekeeping and the warring as Virgil does in Georgics Class of We dubbed one of the meals anyone else remember but I may have been So we study or poetics or so we screw up I once did a though experiment about the ideal packed more tightly than it took and there was still stuff I wanted to Ostrich meat is good I remember highlighter stuff is no TAC is part part part party I vaguely remember the You always knew it was ostrich when we had Like we tell the difference between genus and And speaking of how that enture I did not mean to enture Too much makes a dull Too little makes Peregrott incapable of rational discourse Joshua ostrich meat may be good once in a Not for three straight Anybody remember the shark not really support Julia Child being added to the David would be better I think avarin for real though avarin is actually read in a regular elective at a great booksy place I know of Rather than extend the the obvious next step to me is to make a grad school Although have to stipulate living off campus so that the grad students go  e we broached the topic of And from what I the food is better than it used to But that stop us from complaining about it every Elizabeth David would be a phenomenal substitute for Anything would Just so long as a practicum BURN t there in Santa Fe has two grad I One is great books West and one is great books east a language bout An idea whose time has ntioned Ancient Greek and Hebrew are obvious I actually am against adding electives to the undergrad One of the best things about the program was that you could talk to anyone about anything you were Chinese philosophy Electives would work well in a graduate program I already voted for the Taoteching Popping in with a new and off to Rosary the Analects and the and at least one Chinese historical think I could structure my years toward a and but what would be the  A in Liberal Arts sure be employable I was looking in the Notre Dame course catalog once and that was the name of one of the I suggest starting a grad school or institute in and then we can steal Dr Wiker and Dr Sanford has Plato and Aristotle literally memorized in line by from Steubenville part it was the definition of a facepalm at a implies seven years of coursework masters So I doubt anyone would do a year you worry that the Chinese would just get a straw man reading for the sake of dismissing them at at egel is European and he doesnt exactly get a fair reading usually there I doubt you could dismiss them once you actually read them The is often the I have only just started really getting into it but I find Confucianism Dual a and an st once told me that he thought that Chinese philosophy ws sententious written in a totally different is a wonderful book which reads Aristotle in comparison with Song called by SRL I highly recommend it I think it might already be on my I read remember the moment something clicked and understanding of him shocked me and I threw the book against the behind my what I but only I was startled by the click of expecting to understand a that is part of the he is sort of written off as unreadable before we read That would probably be giving math and science short How about a series of Math Biology Chemistry Physics Philosophy Theology IT could be called Eternal Student I am starting with this for context and ideas for further reading Sources of Chinese A collection of seminal primary readings on the and religious traditions of Sources of Chinese Volume has been widely used and praised for almost forty years as an authoritative resource for scholars and students and as a thorough and engaging rst visited TAC aeons the guy I stayed with had Hegel on his desk and I asked him about it was going to be impressed that TAC read and he dont no one has to read only program where you get the pleasure of writing six I found Hegel sort of poetic rather than But maybe that was my e been studying Chinese philosophy for about years now learning classical pm me if you need recommendations Oh wow I definitely have questions about where to get started with classical why we just start a Catholic commune while we are at get and and and go to would be like über all Not about Canon law Procreate or I just had a very frightening switching gears padding Escalante you and I should discuss this to delving into the East I am not so broke I would end up stranded halfway on the way to I have been reading some of the Upanishads thought of reading Gong Sun Long but find it in It brings back certain pleasant memories with the in many in fuller oshua you know where I live enture Too makes an arrogant enture You were an arrogant jerk BEFORE you went to Thomas Aquinas The mathematical extremism just brought it all to Tenth Circle Added To Rapidly Growing Hell CITY OF NETHER years of the new circle of finally opened its doors Growing gets my vote for the alternate name of this I HAVE found most arrogant jerks that graduated TAC came that Including me of  No Valeatis In All the best reaching Hey guys cool it wow thomism and ancient chinese thought for the is my jam I am going for my evening by that I mean pray smoke TAC of me Oh good ole Saw him this He related a story of a visiting Jewish professor who was shocked by the students Buckley said at your place you encourage fornication and prohibit We prohibit fornication and encourage Sums its up very Clearly not for as a good liberal I think smoking is gross Daniel all I can really contribute right now is a pic of my drink of choice each No scotch but even if I was going to have some I show I three nights IN A I should have posted the actual bowl of popcorn consumed last night with my TACers think fornication is So So might I if I were surrounded by TACers Oh whisper whisper I got are among the loveliest in the Mr Gallagher s a manifest fact  wait there are women at We have sex my We had smoking Honestly my own dislike for Sex Week is far outweighed by my delight at watching everyone else wring their hands over it I feel so bad for the ladies of I always JA is I know which is why I annoyingly bring it Because it is the asinine refutation of everything you say in the vulgar media driven world of shadoes in which we and the Beasts bout I have to leave this blasphemy and go finish syllabi for the YOUTH OF LEADERS who think GLOBALLY in an increasingly diverse There was a rough but it looks like thomism and ancient chinese thought is just the latest topic this thread has attempted to I do want an intro syllabus for Thomism and chinese phil  enture for the a while Megan Caughran claimed that rhetoric can be used for ill as effectively as it can for This is Aristotle in fact underscores the nexus between the Orator of good the good end and effective I am not sure if TAC teaches that ill ends may be the result of good but I do know they do not really teach rhetoric beyond the freshman best done the ancient stuff is too different from the lixue stuff too either way it would confuse students  Earlier we circled each other on the relation of philosophy and sacred Then there was some banter about literature and Then we took a pass at rhetoric and Now up to Thomism and Chinese I have a sneaking suspiscion that as time the probability that any this thread will touch upon any topic approaches I just ran across this gem that is relevant to an earlier course prophecy is a subject which is properly theological but in the measure that theology is an acquired supernatural it will principally call upon philosophy to make the truths which are beyond us more suited to more Necessity of  The people who stay Yale is ward been here since the and read all comments  a street relax In fact Jason Van Boom tried to kill this thread about comments ago Oh look done with my syllabus FEDERALIST PAPERS TABLE OF CONTENTS Find a local lawyer and free legal information at All I have to do is write THE WHOLE TIME at the top of the page and The amazing thing is that we I live within time zones and yet overnight this thread in Estonia or somewhere like that  There are a few Jason Van Boom Estonia really excited about this speaking of FEDERALIST PAPERS TABLE OF CONTENTS Find a local lawyer and free legal information at Peregrine powers of endurance are he takes it ad refutations without ever giving up a Seriously this Mo and birth control Mo Yan is probably the greatest living writer of Chinese His latest is devoted to his aunt years who helped his birth like other babies half was also responsible for the local birth control As she has performed  And he must live in time zones Nobel Laureate Mo Am SPIEGEL ONLINE For the first time since receiving the Nobel Prize in controversial Chinese author Mo Yan has consented to an Many have accused him of being too close to the But he rejects the charge and finds sharp words for his great of Wine is fantastic enture ANOTHER poignant error in the Charter of TAC is the definition of The college defines metaphysics as qualified and revelation as unqualified This distinction is Even Wisdom as revelation is qualified as a theological virtue of intellectual assent to all that has been including the theological dogma of grace perfecting and the sacred science perfecting the sapiential In this Fides et Ratio calls for an interaction between sacred theology and more contemporary Christian philosophies to the extent that they are  I know Edward Fesser I maybe he is on this but a local professor just wrote this review of book on Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism Catholic World Report Global Church news and views Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism Edward new makes a strong case for the contemporary relevance of Thomas philosophical reflections on Aristotle Christopher Morrissey a  Maybe tag him on this  ha I think you know what enture This is nicely coupled with Lumen an encyclical that has a metaphor right in its The point being that love is the center of and Faith perfects and math has nought to do with so while it may express the laws of the it can enslave the spirit of man when offered in disproportionate Good good Edward Feser but he have a personal FB I  It is almost embarrassing to allow outsiders in on an and how I welcome the This thread is STILL  Someone must post a summary about every posts for the sake of newcomers We be judged any worse than we already  Megan it has a life of its Um Megan Baird this thread is outside of At this the count is all that matters The summary would be the length of the It might even be longer name  The problem is that our summary would not match Peregrine So Which would actually be awesome for the length of the if the summarizer broke it into bullet hat do you think of electives for  For that was a problem earlier on be over if they bulleted it Somebody should print this thread out and create a volume of be interested to know how many unique commenters there have been on this Comment statistics for individuals would be cool Ed banking on you having some sort of magic math to make this a Someday someone will write a TAC Thesis on this When I go for my second this will be the subject of my There are unique commenters to my last The top ten Peregrine Bonaventure Michael Beitia John Ruplinger JA Escalante Edward Langley Daniel Lendman Catherine Ryland Matthew Peterson Pater Edmund Isak Benedict Sam Rocha eleven in the list because JA and I were         the syllabi coming Sam Those who attempt to game the system will be disqualified Now on to this grant and a shitty no lly the ad hominems probably get an automatic in Computer Science if I could do Is there an appeals Tally the misspellings of Next ten Jody Haaf  Nina Rachele Marina Shea Lauren Ogrodnick Philip Knuffke Joel HF Megan Caughron Jason Van Boom Daniel Tom Sundaram Did I win time ever that Tom Sundaram talked the is is really a moment Aw cause Tom moved And I think Tom Sundaram intentionally unfollowed this Kinda like Isak Benedict and Jason Van Boom Probs When do we organize a conference at TAC on this Hey I even make the then I work am to night and play around at I can talk about music in the thought about that a lot I but it still popped up in my feed Maybe too many friends of mine are involved for me to avoid I get notifications for it any Although I do rather want to stay kinda The next batch which accuracy probably make measurement Sean Robertson Joshua Kenz John Kunz Tim Cantu Clayton Brockman Joe Zepeda Katie Duda Emily Norppa Liam Collins John Herreid Claire Keeler Erik Bootsma Aaron Gigliotti Dominique Martin Those lists are Of they account for comment If that were to be factored I wonder how the standings would change in terms of sheer facebook makes you solve a CAPTCHA when you tag a bunch of Maybe Isak you spammer you They want to make sure not a Did you if unfriended any of us for what done to their are we strong suspicion about one participant PB is definitely a Yes Sam humans are Actually been grooming this thread to use it to promote my album on The real troll I know If I failed to pass the then my comment be posted My comment was not a robot the enthymeme CAPTCHAs are illegible for robots I found CAPTCHA nearly I am nearly a still convinced at graduation Steubenville kids get the magic power to materialize acoustic guitars at opportune My ticker hence this automatically stops whenever Peregrine is how I know he So just block and it show up in your you starting posting in it that counts as consent not so Robot originally referred to slave implying actual something a robot when it produce anything of It is more like an automate goo I know you want in this how long can you resist never blocked in social I know why Mainly because I need any bit of attention I can possibly I grew up in the shadow of FUS uncles on the Regis Mark Roberts and Charles I went to some show at Franciscan It was opened by a student band called of which was slightly ironic since that silence should never have When do we organize an seminar about this t do you think of adding electives at actually made friends on this Which is Peregrine Falcon tried to friend me but I like him very Maybe he can persuade me with syllogisms why I should be his facebook Boo really all for this notion That was band That was my Did I play that I it was followed by a juggling  You remember I love Because of this thread I befriended Jody Haaf  and found out that my wife is old friends with the present director of evangelization in our Some latino dude who was famous for the number of items he could keep in the When I was a student at just say that I was not a big fan of That juggler would have done well on this thread then Not Wrong I really think this thread is the cyber equivalent of chatting on the  DINGDINGDINGDING we have a WINNER Sam boy if I had a nickel for every time I heard that One of my favorite moments on patio was one fine day when two dogs began making love in the middle of right en route to the commons when people were arriving after class and for Rich Marotti when you need  thanks to this I can help Sam Rocha make some new friends in the I think talked some friends into attending the CD release  I think someone should tag some current TAC seniors There must be at least dozen thesis topics here part of the research has been A mangy mutt who was in desperately in love with a pure bred Just leave her And in the midst of this questionably consensual contact there were people walking by en route to the commons in dress code trying to ignore in the We at on the other were not ignoring much of we were savoring every last drop of those glorious O my No What are you all doing I seem to have been tagged a few comments ago but not sure  Because you Dominique Martin made  run stats on this thread This reminded me of this Edward Langley et alii This thread comes back to haunt participants So is it still Scott The Reasonable People regarding how TAC is or have we moved on to greener Not that I really want to I  Your wife is going to kill all of Such Christian good Any analysis of the Thread is rendered impossible by the very fact that while said analysis is the thread itself is growing comment by and hurtling closer and closer towards and true unity once a sort of now imminently shedding the skin of Fasten your ladies and We are exiting the just proves Hegel right about everything Well we had the negation of the negation moment a while we approach the absolute German negativity will make sense of all this I need to fully expect you guys to hit by the time I get home from work a new The World Spirit is about to look in the Holy This is Here I thought that I might be the last comment back when we were at Oh Has anyone thought to consult the Guinness now distracted and thinking about The Thread knows no Anne As it is Threadness and that by which all other threads are it does not exist in the particular and therefore cannot be having no beginning or This thread is still When I checked it last week there were under This is quite marvelous and There is nothing going on I feel a lot of love in this room right now  Hey this seems like the perfect time to tell you all about a very special marketing opportunity venture currently working a simple franchise A small initial gift gets your foot in the door right but got to act Then all you have to do to be a part of it is bring in two just two subsequent investors and be increasing your profit in no And you even have to worry about market saturation this opportunity exists outside of I only mention it because my friends and I wanted to give you all the first chance at some World Spirit Networking I was reflecting on something you said I have been trying to loosely chronicle the of the being outside of it really As I said there is an and but not a before and strictly It strikes me that this bears a remarkable similarity to either the structure of heaven or of hell as Dante recounts Tom it might be time for you to tell us about Dante Apparently this is my comment For my I will say that I am surprised that Aaron Dunkel been showing us any love on this this cause for Whatever the structure is totally not a For my post I will repeat the most important and substantive thing I have contributed to this TAC is the I am the got a certain He He may be useful to us here at World Spirit Networking Division of Sacred Theology and Pep comment was But the others had actual I want notifications I but I am gonna be busy in Siena praying to St Catherine for your collected Aaron Dunkel telling I was tagged in the original I attempted to catch up this thread is really too Some day I will read all of the which can make one feel of only to have that seemingness dissolved by a glance at the Good Tom What about our individual The agent intellect is Collective Soul is a fun But individually Do join Everyone is Except Peregrine For my I would like to note that my comment was meant only as a reflection on the diligent efforts of Edward documentation of the comments on this You may now all expect at least more comments from so that I can end on a good solid Step into my like to discuss your future with our And And if it If that sounds like getting because Aaron you should not stay I want to talk about why metaphors syllogisms Good I know it was hours and comments But I defy your recall of the greatest smokers patio moment of all In it was a sunny and a certain Jay Krautmann was sitting there with his along side Herbert Mr several of the other usual At this a certain Karen zedlick approached and engaged in conversation heretical At one she requests the guitar may I play for But of if I I must sing as Nothing was the same after I remember and what I love is I still get to be number two in comments after taking hours off at a one if you consider And Edward sure won the ad hominems leveled Daniel metaphors are if one reason case in On the theses volume Which of these two titles is and Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts Also add any better ones The nominations are pretty heavy on the recent as Joel HF has We need some nominations from the good old Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume Google Docs As Good we realize that the more recent theses are intrinsically and I think the thread is top heavy in terms of the how Off to do Is that years for every post in the do you we just call them now considering this was about TAC a remarkable number of comments about Chrirtendom theses like a metaphor is a which i think also demonstrates the correctness of observation about the strength of Metaphor is a syllogism works if you do but can only speak in broad lyrical vistas of the And I love me some rhetorical I may make a i think Christendom theses win with respect to producing unending They also may make one more employable Funny in all these thousands no one has brought up the nerdy pick up line comment even I think most of us are John thesis was supposed to be quite that and the slideshow makes it really hard to sit through for all the thesis titles I think I read three or I like the first title Pater enture amusing how the founders of Thomas Aquinas College believed they discovered the one thing wrong with the world and the and that they were the only ones who discovered and the college is the only place you can find the notion of embedded in the Because academia and the Church lost sight of we have things like modern abortion and divorce and the folk Aristotelian Causality is the drum the bang over and over But the world today believes in cause and It just lost sight of the first And banging their drum does nothing to correct Because the world disbelieves because of lack of not as the Church grace is And grace is an effect to the gift of faith and a response of which presents a whole new world of which TAC How about Agent Wild Speculation sans Speaking of banging welcome back or better Metaphor as just came back so I take over first place in number of I think one of the first things I learned at TAC was that I need That is why they offer mass times a confession adoration and have full time enture Math is useful for college but harmful because it has made fluff out of everything How is Ways and Persons make Generally the homilies at TAC are about the geometric perfection and proportions that can be discerned in our here Metaphorical Syllogisms in Magisterial Holistic It is a commonly held position among the faculty and students that was the first real icon of the And that Euclid was pen Hang hang I thought demonstrated the Trinity by way of construction  just showed us what we were looking makes cuts the AB into the golden ratio by constructing the golden ratio on the original turned at right angles and by thus showing how God proceeds from as the Son from the Father in order that the the golden produce that which is perfect in the Holy Spirit And Scott says math important for Michael is a better God is a there are three Persons and one enture I think you believe if you go to and trust the then God will give you grace to become a and truly liberal Catholic man of and you will have the answer to the This is the form of political the magesterium says is and drawing conclusions from magesteriaj propositions is Euclid was baptized and should be studied at a magesterium approved sans discursive reason but argued assertively by metaphorical If you actually paid attention to what I you have to guess at what I You would just ask me and I would tell enture And being a If you actually paid attention to what I you have to guess at what I You would just ask me and I would tell you remember consecration at curfew in the Aristotle and Euclid were promised our undying Gnosis gnosis gnosis enture TAC reads so much Aristotle and Thomas they believe causality is the one thing that went missing from the and they need to bring it why Pope Leo XIII recommended Lost I figure by comments I can get close to for a robust stop stop It for lost it was for lost syllogistic metaphorical holistic magisterial grace it is interesting if you actually read what The Founders of TAC they mention causality as a reason for starting It is not that under the pressure of ever widening vocationalism and Catholic immersed in this is Blurred in its it cannot well distinguish and justify true liberal education apart from vocational and professional in a time when technical and technological progress seem to be everything that is commonly regarded as Correlated with hope in technology is his despair in knowing the truth about which desperation gave rise originally to Even against the humanistic part of modern wherein man turns back upon himself for the meaning of all which view always favors the against and man against his the benighted Catholic college has found itself This capitulation shows on the one hand the general lassitude and dullness to which we are all but on the other hand it shows more importantly what was noted the Catholic college has never really understood has that thought out the exigencies of a liberal education which is undertaken in subordination to the teaching of the and which has as its aim an intellectual perfection which is possible and proper to the Catholic Such an education demands that all the parts of the curriculum not ordered to technical concerns should be conducted with a view to understanding the Catholic and that the Faith itself should be the light under which the curriculum is but they mean causality here Brain Kelly talks about why we study The Great McArthur says about why they founded the wanted a college that was seriously We as to frame a curriculum that would be possible but At the same we wanted it to be deeply which is impossible without a serious curriculum to People can have good will and be very good but there is no education unless the mind is It is possible to have an institution with Catholic a Catholic good Catholics as teachers and but yet fail to This is what we wanted to From what the Angelic Neumayr it almost looks like the reason we study Aquinas and Aristotle is because we are following the scholars Thomas is a recognized For the Church he is the The as the popes have told has embraced his mind as her own and this because he has unfolded the knowledge of ordinary a knowledge shared by all with an almost unique fidelity to our shared Thomas in his turn called Aristotle the voice of the human mind Speaking of Cardinal Newman told us our thoughts before we were ever Going from what we all know implicitly about the visibilia to an explicit account is not easy and no matter their have done it with perfect Even the great Augustine concedes that though he knows what he is at a loss when asked to explain Thomas Aristotle before him were unique among men in this With good reason the College organized the course of studies to proceed mentem This is to seek out an understanding of things according to the mind of and not in any of the that lived briefly and died in This is to say that the College truly seeks to make its students disciples of Discipleship asks more than a mere acquaintance with this His thought squares with our own and becomes our I heard from that TAC care about the Are you talking about the overt TAC doctrine or the secret doctrine Neumayr goes on to imply that sanctity and moral rectitude are But why this unique role for Why among the rich minds of the renowned scholars should Thomas stand they all geniuses of a but Thomas was not only a he was also a This can hardly be claimed for most of the But you might ask what difference does sanctity Is it merely an inspirational aspect that it Or does it bear on the intellectual life The in has a central part in the intellectual Most of the more serious errors in judgment are more moral than It is a moral failing rather than an intellectual one to claim that you see what you do not or that you do not see what you do The fallen nature of man makes a dogmatism favoring our own ideas almost Those who would insist that a mere hypothesis be absolute are claiming to see what they do not The sanctity and the genius of Thomas would give him a certain immunity from claiming that he sees what he in fact does not This moral rectitude in the pursuit of Wisdom ad mentem in my humble is inextricably tied up with the mission of the and its future depends on this discipleship to our What does this mean for You be a disciple of just but only one you take to be both wise and Thomas makes for that the five proofs for existence set out in his Summa Theologiae are By his genius he sees the truth of the by his sanctity he does not his though we may have every expectation that we may come to see as he does that God must exist and cannot not It is just amazing what one can find when one actually pays attention to what people say and enture Last time I the First Cause is as alive in the world today as when God said let there be But you it is not Nature that lacks but modern understanding of The language of causal How has this proposal played Has it fixed the not even among those who believed the problem was the keep asserting maybe then someone will believe are you you show remarkable patience trying to quoting linking you know that you just have to keep asserting the same and all I trust you and math the language of causal its the language of casual Like science in yoga pants I am not sure that anyone who knows about the First Cause would ever think that there was a problem with the First Cause not being in the Because if the First Cause were not there would be no there for it not be maybe if you did more metaphysics you would avoid such an embarrassing you are around TAC students and we care much when people make mistakes like We are a rather tollerant and patient in that i disagree on one The universities did once know what they were They over time forgot as they enture Keep banging those drums of Aristotelean Those Whoville I think I and the founders agree with it only takes one or two Bede observed It is evident two when the jesuits were I am pretty sure it is too early in the day for you to be so I just did a page search for and got no The only thing close was Who is beating a In this seems to be typical of your It seems that you seldom really want to know what other people I call it Blair on all fine and dandy until he disagrees with then the head spins around I am going to have some quality time with the I will be I am just stick to ducking for a little while longer did you guys go back to this topic so we could hit it was Damn for tagging me back into this Joel HF wrote it call of the thread is not which can eternal Yet with strange aeons even death may To gaze upon is to know and to is to never Pater Edmund I like though gets points for Latin and you remind of a thesis i meant to propose for neverending or one escapes the never ending or are stuck in the th what dante would I remember DeLuca telling us two things in Junior perfume is meant to remind you of look at the math is better than the magisterium because you can prove the trinity from Trinity has three right there in the and Beitia I write Anne Schniederjan Grateful Dead Grateful Dead got my chips cashed keep like the man more or less in I had not thought that death had so Tim I was in your section and I can verify that we did in fact learn the hard to but it is indeed you guys got practical life information in junior so jealous right Bad Analogies The problem with using analogies to explain the Holy Trinity is that you always end up confessing some ancient Let the patron saint of the Irish I thought I quoted it plus you need to get back into the enture Any thesis yet on how God breathed life into a dead Is that your be here all tip your waitresses all covered in senior lab monkey that I miss somewhere in the previous comments where someone made the dead monkey I thought it was so much has changes out into the distance quomodo magna I pay a lot of attention to any of senior so probably all working for me Gnosis gnosis called at least what the kids tell wait telling me that you can reason to natural from the things of Re Pater I think my suggestion of asking the school for a list of double distinctions by year could be a good jumping off point in terms of older As long as you start from pure a priori But I meant that the class formerly known as is now literally called because sets you up for the very real disappointment of not spending time in Kronk and lab making llama I did once intuit a priori got better I know about that That would be to assume that those grading the theses have some idea of what but it would be a list to work at Almost THE A TRIOLET Like dog to thread slave is Without its slave its not Like dog to thread We need The need Need and pagan Like dog to thread slave is at for stay on stay on Oh I think a great summation of this entire thread that despite several efforts to hit it was So is our glorious I wish I could say that is the worst comment in this magnificent I also like this quote from Fides et in fact has always needed and still needs As a work of critical reason in the light of theology presupposes and requires in all its research a reason formed and educated to concept and theology needs philosophy as a partner in dialogue in order to confirm the intelligibility and universal truth of its It was not by accident that the Fathers of the Church and the Medieval theologians adopted This historical fact confirms the value of which remains unimpaired when theology calls upon but it shows as well the profound transformations which philosophy itself must It was because of its noble and indispensable contribution from the Patristic period philosophy was called the ancilla The title was not intended to indicate servile submission or purely functional role with regard to it was used in the sense in which Aristotle had spoken of the experimental sciences as to The term can scarcely be used given the principle of autonomy to which we have but it has served throughout history to indicate the necessity of the link between the two sciences and the impossibility of their Have you noticed that the thread is mine is in plain old printed see myself not yelling at Loriot hier Das vollständige Welcome to Instant Rimshot If you need quick access to an rimshot sound to mock your or a rimshot to put your great joke over the come to the right How about some celebratory music for Reggie Watts disorients you in the most entertaining way Reggie beats defy Unplug your logic board and watch as he blends poetry and crosses musical genres in this but God gave us we used that to make and measure red who knows creation but pretty confident in was somewhen in the order of billion years ago  I keep posting unfinished things accidentally and then deleting Blasted malformed thoughts stopping anyone else guilty enture Third Secret of This thread will end only when Causality has been returned to  you liked my My gnosis must be on the fritz enture And I am going to type into this every word of TS The word for enture April enture is enture the Please no cruellest month bringing enture month enture something about tubers Shantih Shantih Shantih now that over I need Aaron expert advice on the Theses Volume title Which of these two titles is Learning and Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts or what should the title of this volume I have no idea what gnosis Are they gonna take my degree I like the first But I really hate the word Mr Berquist ruined that for me Is this up to too many comments to just jump  up to too many comments to NOT just jump Nice We may be arrogant but we are I too aspire to be an arrogant jerk and Pater Edmund High School Geometry Intellectual Pride in the Catholic Michael of the second most is now Is deleting old comments to manipulate the thread grounds for thread Just when I thought I was pull me back Just when I thought I was pull me back Yes but who is the thread Good But if latae does it I would argue the Thread is its own I nominate pope Is mine the Organically developing in response to the churnings of the heresy Either or all on the Barque of is there a particularly good recording of Messiah on I already listened to but supposed to listen to it for Handel by London Symphony Orchestra Sir Colin Davis Handel by London Symphony Orchestra Sir Colin Davis Catherine one of the how is that Who made you the topic the as determines the not From looking at this thread and the I think there is a going So the thread is the world The topic turns out Truth is not a Nietzsche is now being published with gender inclusive language enture The topic is how everyone in the world has lost their sense of Aristotelian and how TAC is working to fix this just your truth be a what truth is an then enture you have to say it mathematically if you want it to count as rational latae or to exit truth is a how to a fool bold assertion Peregrott or she is considered because he or she cannot find a bottom to him or He or she even enture Can we all just modern man does not believe in God so the way to fix this problem is by teaching Catholic college students about Aristotelean  education X vangeliz duc evangelization If truth were a you capture hood put it on a birdstand in your living room for about mos so it becomes docile to your voice and dependent on you for And then you could take it training it to dive bomb on your favorite Aristotelian causality is but more which causality is Without an understanding of we can make no enture We cannot metaphysically know anything about without assent to In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural to know with absolute certainty and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of there you go responding to something no one asserted Can we add a every time I accuse you of straw  a drink for at Even this dogma just by the wording still allows for some religious and moral truths to be known without supernatural if not easily or with perfect certainty or totally free from No one said metaphysics was enture causality is sure does not sound like a straw especially when the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary to understand if anyone cares to engage in a rational  enture smokescreen the truth will not be nor hidden in Bonaventure is like the students in the studying math in the sand with their at the same time as studying the heavens with their nether Aristophanes was a If knowledge about nature is impossible without then how do you take Rom His powers of ridicule were feared and acknowledged by influential their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened On a serious I initially thought comments that the main confusion by the thread antagonist concerned the distinction between the order of learning and the order of the but it appears the deeper issue his inability to perceive G is revealed in can metaphysics shift the perception of  for your popcorn enture when the Church taught is morally impossible for man without Supernatural to know with absolute certainty and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural She really metaphysics is but thanks to the way Thomas Aquinas College teaches Aristotelean problem Nature Salvation is at Romulus and Remus more is morally impossible for man without Supernatural to know with absolute certainty and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural nature is The root problem here is that it is commonly held that we reason about magisterial the pronouncements are to form  Conscience the free encyclopedia Conscience is an intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from Moral judgment may derive from values or norms and In psychological terms conscience is often described as leading to feelings of remorse when a human commits actions that enture power and cannot be clearly perceived through save by the assistance of The infallible Church is to be assented the church only infallible when it says it get that hood off look what you got me to do now you are conflating two How do you counteract a materialist worldview which categorically excludes God and the By The claim that TAC teaching Aristotle solves all our problems and gives you understanding of Rather the which needs but defense can definitely be is that with a view of the you cannot know God at all nor can you be open to So unless God goes Road to Damascus on we need to till the And that is done by attacking the reductionist worldview that denies essences Only by doing this can reason be prepared to tackle difficult You seem to be tilting at windmills which even present in this enture Lest we as you seem to be that Aristotelean causality is an apologetical and a stepping stone to in the order of being and This is I asked students if they could disprove the principle of One student said that Jesus was both man and at the same How do you I have my own but would be interested in hearing what have to enture God does go to with And it seems presenting the world view as a straw No problem using pagan causality to go after Just use it to build a Catholic college  by talking about we are worshiping THE GIG IS UP Close down the We have been enture John you claim that only by studying pagan causality can you be prepared to tackle difficult but this is utterly Don Quixote is the autobiography of Thomas Aquinas I guess I should not have gone to college but just stayed home and prayed reeeeeeeaaaaaaally not sure why you have such animus toward a view of the world that was adopted by doctors of the Seems the magician has convinced you of the even embrace the Arabic spelling enture Aristotelean causality is a fine rebuttal to materialism and Just premise Catholic education on Catholic education begins and ends with Pagan Because causality works different once seeing as TAC begins with a year of not sure what you are Catholic Same now with more enture That world view was not adopted by the The Doctors always first assented to the principles of then studied the not the way you We do agree that faith or belief in God is always a gift of Always and enture Reading the Bible is not a comprehensive introduction to the deposit of the Faith and the principles that the Doctors assented to throughout their enture Thank you Let us agree that Faith always comes from QED many Pergrine does not undersand what he But that mean we study with our reason at least some of what has been given to us by enture causality does work differently once you are as a matter of Thank Remember what Rome made Bautain promise for now and NEVER TO TEACH that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or and the truths depending on as a science totally distinct from supernatural which is founded on divine i think Peregrine understands what he enture the Church teaches you understand those things without an assent to which implies an understanding of sacred enture Indeed I do understand what I Thank you and God bless you say that TAC is teaching Aristotelian philosophy without but that is simply not They explicitly say that the whole course of studies is conducted under the light of you just seemed to arue like since you know ALL natural truths without using that means therefore neither can you know just reading it out of context it mean what it clearly means because if it disagrees with PB it simply cannot mean what it means Dd you really mean i assert with Pater Edmund vide my entire engagement on this insane thread for the answer to your q it a dogma that we can know some truths via if it be material heresy to claim cannot metaphysically know anything about Nature without assent to can you cite some text for enture Mr Knuffe I am just saying what Pater Edmind just reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or So Aristotelean causality is not the secret or the or the first rephrasing that in simpler words might enture running for Joel the heresy Bautain was forced to publicly See I can split infinitives Well it would be a difficult position to he would need to have that statement itself revealed to him I was already trying to rephrase even for but also trying to cook Catholic education begins and ends with  but can he grasp have some Alexander skulking Truth to her old cavern Mountains of casuistry her that on heaven Shrinks to her second and is no Physic of Metaphysic begs And Metaphysic calls for aid on See Mystery to Mathematics In they turn and veils her sacred And unawares Morality Nor public nor dares to Nor human spark is nor glimpse thy dread is Light dies before thy uncreating Thy great lets the curtain And universal darkness buries killing Pater believe Vatican I also has something to say about I think poor Peregrine know the magisterium he loves so passionately pb could not distinguish syllogism and I just saw am just saying what Pater Edmind just reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or formal heresy right mere anarchy not yet Edward Langley already pulled out the Vatican  My reason must that I had not as I A creature made of When the angel woos the lose his wings at the end of the So just to be clear Pater Edmund just pointed out that Peregrine Bonaventure just assented to a formal So the also the comment I No metaphysical knowledge without assent to From the guy rabbiting on about how lacked NO I SUSPECT HE DIDNT GRASP THE I misread it earlier Yes but he just AFFIRMED THAT I also did not grasp the condemnation at first But he affirmed exactly what arguing for a condemned PB care to unfortunate I tag him never read this far So basically we need to address Fideism he read it opposite its By the time you go and get back to this it will be at and who has the time to catch up when velocity Which condemnation are you talking about Max There have been a few that PB quite  The one where he explicitly Peregrine Bonaventure Mr Knuffe I am just saying what Pater Edmind just reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or So Aristotelean causality is not the secret or the or the first Joel HF that was in response to what you just said Maybe the world spirit has turned into Jormungandr I just wondered which there were a couple others along the same magisterially magisterium your magisterially magistic Why does this guy hate TAC so it containr too many for he has problems with math and logic inter eady for the decisive say taking it out of lack the sacred integral sapiential gnosis and thus properly read I You said that takes me back to junior music with Molly Philip one really Though getting told TAC for something to that by a senior tutor probably Nor did having to leave after several attempts at freshman go back a few thousand It explains EVERYTHING It seems to me that Peregrine has just now recovered from explicitly denying a statement taught by Vatican I comments except he understand it that Vatican Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many I the above quote from that would equally support the Edward PB he has been more explicit than ever in his rejection of I imagine he thinks he DOES agree with is it vice Edward Langley only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many hr Like Edward Langley You answered my Peregrine hr Like Edward Langley Does reason establish the foundation of or hr Like Daniel Lendman I think you are being hr Like JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and hr Unlike JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and you also resort to enture Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred then a material that quotation was from Vatican Daniel Lendman that was a gotcha and I really liked the appropriate response is if you distinguish between metaphor and affirm or deny Here it Vatican I If anyone says that the true our creator and cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human let him be also the possession of of the first might justly be regarded as beyond human for in many ways human nature is in sot that according to Simonides alone can have this and it is unfitting that man should not be content to seek the knowledge that is suited to From the Pagan Metaphysics the way to do it is to quote Vatican I without citation and ask Peregrine if what quoted is When he denies watch him the trick is now to say that your quote the of play a little three card mental monte and accuse everyone of heresy Bonaventure false and you take Vat I out of Right reason is an effect of assent to which is clearly the foundation of the Harrah Well played Matthew In The Neverending thread comment on well played He barely cracks the top ten Perhaps the antagonist ought to follow the ancient dietary laws of avoiding ostrich Still got a way to Facebook World Records Check out some of the coolest and quirkiest Facebook world records and Impress your friends by breaking or inventing your own Facebook world records on let it never be said I do my I think we should make Peregrine wear a scarlet H scarlet is too noble of a us go with bile green how about a scarlet for idiot While making fun of PB is We should also remember that we should probably do our best to help him not be a YOu guys are I think at the point where argumentum ad baculum is the only option that Dialogue has to be possible first  and I am a brat Michael Beitia I know how it would be possible perhaps argumentation dialogue is not the answer at least not in its current form and just man Maybe you should also burn since a material and dialogue is no longer Cuz loving to help someone see their error by killing Public shaming is a form of argumentum ad and is often helpful in he called me a thug approximately comments I think TACers should not be allowed to use facebook to monosyllabicly worded questions and refusal to respond to his  cat memes disputation What can be done when we point to the moon and our finger gets stared start howling like our I actually went line by line through Pope first encyclical with him on facebook with Megan and back when he was just I tried maybe Say absurd things on simple matters and see if he can correct his thinking by correcting IDK That Ferrier thread is linked somewhere hidden by a few thousand something like Just to fill in for the in case yet figured it out Peregrine aka Scott care about rational He raises some interesting but cannot get beyond As a he does not really pay attention to what you It would seem that he is not He makes blind assertions and insults without Feel free to but just know that he is a troll without If you do not believe you can just look His position with regard to TAC has been refuted a dozen times just in this cant see its a wolf was suppose to be a probably why you see it Most recently he has been talking about how the TAC founders thought that Aristotelian causality is the panacea for our It apparently does not interest Scott that our founders never said any such I quoted all of them at length above about comments I believe hung in this thread when you even see and even a TAC is right that open meanness is never called just suggesting that we all act like Christians A different one One specifically about the encyclical comments I remember that More of the tly Catherine I think all MOSTLY been pretty good sports here And now for a Suppose two people play a the number I have in mind rather than one person trying to guess the number the other is thinking trying to pick a point on a line that the other person has thought What is the probability that the guesser picks the correct On the one if the things to be guessed were line the probability to pick a given segment varies directly with its it would seem that the probability to pick a given point would be as the limit of decreasing That it is impossible to pick the given On the other that point was already picked and if it was impossible for it to be it could not have been Thus the probability that it is picked must be there have been many interesting things on the thread and its more tolerable not to see I am in an intellectual enture if even Aristotle had the humility to know that true metaphysical knowedge is impossible without you think it would be a good idea to teach Catholic college students the principles of Revelation in the infallible deposit of the Faith and of sacred Just how about replying to the proposition Rome made Bautain It was quoted earlier by and ignoring it I suppose it depends on what you mean Are you serious Peregrine his he repeats it to assure himself of its Philip back you missed the point where we just noticed you explicitly assented to an heretical statement by quoting as an it became clear above that Scott is a material heretic with regard to relation of faith and reason by denying a central point of Vatican Specifically he reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine Andrews I think that reading every comment on this thread should count toward credit I think his first name is which is why he is so persistent about this magisterium hump All day what are the principles of in your own Perhaps it is opportune for me to point out if the Church actually took position on things the Nicene Creed could never have been peregrine can not be HE DOESNT understand what he is He is indocile enture Let me ask the question If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without and since the of came after do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that Seeing as that deals some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason with His and other things which can be known only in then would it not be wise to teach students all of that and so everyone knows what that help TAC proposes the PB you responded to the point that assenting to this is a good The only problem is that it has been answered But I think we should try for your this is what Scott me ask the question If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without and since the of came after do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that Seeing as that deals some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason with His and other things which can be known only in then would it not be wise to teach students all of that and so everyone knows what that help TAC proposes the what do you mean by is it a That is also a good enture Let me ask Since Aristotle had the humility to know that metaphysics is impossible without would it not be wise to learn what that help Can we talk about the Deposit of Faith in relation to material You keep trumpeting the Church and deny her am the The Pandorica will Silence will knew how prophetic those words were from the at the beginning of Season I second Daniel for or it HAHAHAHA enture Help the deposit of the Catholic I think the thesis on animal feelings sounds timely and Just wanted to add I think the problem is that one cannot understand the deposit of the Catholic Faith without sound The own definitions are predicated with philosophical Its what happens when so called real apprehentioms are elevated above notional He too seems to have rejected that we can know God We wind up solipsic and trapped in our own mind unable to communicate with personal of God and irrational degree since it is impossible  enture I patently disagree with the opposite is You cannot understand without The maxim is faith seeking You indicate TAC attempts to do the Do you agree with seeking imply that faith is of enture And you cannot establish a without assent to help which you cannot do without studying Kinda like the phrase seeking implies that he does not yet have a Here is the You equate help with understanding the deposit of I agree with Vatican I that faith and reason are mutually and aid one nature proceeds grace is for the sake of make a nature like unto the help that comes in metaphysics is largely had through prayer and spiritual The hippopotamus Rests on his belly in the Although he seems so firm to us He is merely flesh and is weak and Susceptible to nervous While the True Church can never fail For it is based upon a The feeble steps may err In compassing material While the True Church need never stir To gather in its The can never reach The mango on the But fruits of pomegranate and peach Refresh the Church from over At mating time the voice Betrays inflexions hoarse and But every week we hear rejoice The at being one with The day Is passed in at night he God works in a mysterious way The Church can sleep and feed at I saw the take wing Ascending from the damp And quiring angels round him sing The praise of in loud Blood of the Lamb shall wash him clean And him shall heavenly arms Among the saints he shall be seen Performing on a harp of He shall be washed as white as By all the virgins While the True Church remains below Wrapt in the old miasmal Aaron that is a favorite of I responded to Scott I patently disagree with the opposite is You cannot understand without The maxim is faith seeking You indicate TAC attempts to do the Do you agree with And you cannot establish a without assent to help which you cannot do without studying  He is partly But difficult to correct bc confused and Very Daniel that image is all I get from enture I disagree with that I equate help with and to have that you need the her and you need to assent to those and you need to study and to do that you need to be presented with metaphysics is not the same as and seem to be saying the metaphysics and revelation are and equally help each This is seeking imply that faith is of understood kinda like the phrase seeking implies that he does not yet have a Here I am not calling anyone a heretic or troll and you criticize my cheerleading the What does homoousion Peregrine seems to think that seeking means understand anything unless you first have Thus making all of philosophy into Sacred What does it mean for the soul to be the form of the body as the council of Vienne enture faith seeking understanding simply means gaining a greater understanding of the reasonability of the faith presupposes My poor Gaze for a while on the Never Ending Thread as it grows and all will be Never again to be Faith presupposes WE CAN UNDERSTAND NO ARTICLE of faith without one cannot disagree well unless one actually addresses whether by presenting an argument for your own by distinguishing some term your opponent uses or by refuting some claim your opponent Merely reasserting your own position like a broken record is none of these Here is another Faith is a but the definition of virtue includes the account of a rational faith presupposes Man seeking This thread seems to have turned into a singles Yes or do you agree or disagree that true our creator and cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human enture seeking does not mean understanding anything unless you first have It means you would not exist without and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without And since that is the and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the in Her sacred would you not want to study what those principles and teachings how they came to how they came to improve the metaphysics of the and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present  BUT HIS CONFUSION AND OTHERS HERE is that de fide propositions not a special gift of the Holy are what preserve us from many errors of reason darkened by sin and That is a position that has been explicitly enture that is We cannot know our Lord God without His So let us learn what that help we want to know what the Church but to understand homousion and is form of requires sound We may have a shot at this is just in from seeking does not mean understanding anything unless you first have It means you would not exist without and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without And since that is the and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the in Her sacred would you not want to study what those principles and teachings how they came to how they came to improve the metaphysics of the and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present Keep it Joel HF looks like he assents to that statement realize that that proposition was by at Vatican I quote anyone says that the true our creator and cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human let him be Thus you must REJECT that idea if one wants to remain faithful to the Catholic TAC Peregrine I wonder how many sentences Peregrine would reject if we just quoted VI one sentence at a That was a gotcha It was and and Edward look at the example you have enture understanding the soul as requires sound but sound philosophy requires sound which requires the the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in light of use of philosophy of the He erred on this dogma his view of the The Church did not err because the Church is aided by God in a unique So let us study that you have to start seeing that your position is really breaking I think this thread has gotten way past for the good of your own soul and well you need to assent to the teaching of the He is not an Through modern he has become It a quoted the Vatican I statement in its entirety earlier today in this very With attribution I do sincerely hope that PB will come to the I do denial of the IC is consistent with his commitment to speculate as little as possible beyond things revealed by Of course the content of the Deposit of Faith was later made more but neither here nor enture How is my position breaking scroll up you see how you have explicitly rejected truths defined by the enture tell me how my position is breaking  enture enture Quote it again can you please just reply to the propositions quoted from Vatican I and the recantation of They directly contradict you someone has to have it on quote Vatican I anyone says that the true our creator and cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human let him be You explicitly agreed with the condemned You rejected as this The true our creator and can be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human Edward Langley only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith illuminated by its develops the science of divine on the other faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many Edward Langley You answered my Peregrine Edward Langley Does reason establish the foundation of or Daniel Lendman I think you are being you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me Do you ever actually respond to an or do you just reassert your cranky position over and you also resort to enture Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred then a material that quotation was from Vatican Daniel Lendman that was a gotcha and I really liked the appropriate response is what Joel just enture Please show me where I and contradicted the teaching of the if this is your and Ed Do you see how that just and Pater howed Peregrine That He is anathema who says that God cannot be known from creation and human Slow guys Let him He needs it broken Even more by the NATURAL light of human Thank that I care what the magisterium proclaims maybe I do a the sun pierces the fog speak so Everyone following should take a moment and pray for enture Are you going to let me   Please Beyond harmful towards This needs to be a healing The soothing eternal I love all of enture May I please do by all Please Does he grasp his Does he grasp that that is what is He is asking for time to find Hush for a asking us to let him so hold off until he does no way this turns out badly I have The Peregrine may yet take cue jet engine an heretic is given months to PB needs more time Go He is When You Believe The Prince Of Egypt You is the Official Movie Soundtrack of Prince of In the this song of inspiration is performed by the characters Tzipporah enture Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason but not without some admixture of Revelation and assent is needed to know without This is the teaching from Vat Thank You seem more interesting in proving you are then understanding what is But I thank you for letting me They do this to Including me at I have been known to throw pencils at people across the And burst into is extremely difficult to know without an admixture of error and may require much in the way of not impossible  And I was usually wrong of When do we do this to Catherine And moreover it is done entirely out of I take it from your response that you do not this was from people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason but not without some admixture of Revelation and assent is needed to know without This is the teaching from Vat Thank You seem more interesting in proving you are then understanding what is But I thank you for letting me Do you not see how faith presupposes I think the hang up here is the admixture of error That needs to be addressed to move forward otherwise this could continue to go in circles like so many What happens when a bird hits a jet engine Ever wonder what would happen if birds were sucked into a jet John that is going to happen we are in The Never Ending I think the thread is intended to move beat We should also all take a moment and recall all the times we have obstinately held a position even though we however that the other had a better argument and Well then this part of the conversation is retrograde is a distinction not admitted So what saying you agree with Vatican I that natural theology is quite possible without but that there will always be some error and with metaphysics is purified of that but without losing its relatively independent It is really to change mind and to admit Especially talk about what it means to be infallibly Yes John Boyer I have seen and recorded now four periods of retrograde These are also known as Usually increased participation from Catherine is a herald of a new Tim Moore is our that is really all the response going to there can be no dark ages on the NET only varying degrees of I am very sensitive to those degrees  RESPOND can an atheist follow Aquinas and be convinced without error as I have a strong stomach I really thought something great was going to    then it be Hegelian That never take a look at his Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason but not without some admixture of Revelation and assent is needed to know without This is the teaching from Vat now back to Take out Phenomenology of add Heidegger one can admit that Aristotle had But in principle it is not John Boyer you suggested that we tackle admixture of Perhaps a Hegelian duel is in order What does that What must it Lendman has now taken the role of Tutor TACers are arrogant go through this line by line They really even if Adrw join the internet known for friendliness You guys must have really boring look at source of quote But we are arrogant if you get a few drinks in us Good idea John Samantha I am still waiting for classes to I am still on being a student leaves a fair amount of free time which can be used for productive ends or enture Aristotle knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of Encyclicals must be read in not so much on Some encyclicals say Thomas is This does not mean this is all the theology we We must study what the Church teaches in Her and make assent to This knowledge precedes so why does TAC not teach Can we take this somewhat seriously Even if we change mind we may be able to understand his position with more clarity and then how to answer it Or just very good at avoidance that is a good but we are looking at your response from above your claim that knowledge precedes needs What do you mean by we are trying to discern what admixture of error There are two questions there I think it better to address the issue of natural knowledge of god and hash that out before making an assertion and then demanding an answer as to why TAC live up to avoiding the One thing at a Ahh nvm this is Facebook Scott just said knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of Encyclicals must be read in not so much on Some encyclicals say Thomas is This does not mean this is all the theology we We must study what the Church teaches in Her and make assent to This knowledge precedes so why does TAC not teach So where is that quote from I would say that the phrase in question ultimately comes from Wahre ist so der bacchantische an dem kein Glied nicht trunken und weil indem es sich ebenso unmittelbar er ebenso die durchsichtige und einfache enture as in you Get here comes Linda ST Co answer It was necessary for salvation that there should be a knowledge revealed by God besides philosophical science built up by human because man is directed to as to an end that surpasses the grasp of his eye hath not O besides what things Thou hast prepared for them that wait for But the end must first be known by men who are to direct their thoughts and actions to the Hence it was necessary for the salvation of man that certain truths which exceed human reason should be made known to him by divine Even as regards those truths about God which human reason could have it was necessary that man should be taught by a divine because the truth about God such as reason could would only be known by a and that after a long and with the admixture of many Whereas whole which is in depends upon the knowledge of this in order that the salvation of men might be brought about more fitly and more it was necessary that they should be taught divine truths by divine It was therefore necessary that besides philosophical science built up by there should be a sacred science learned through THEN PB doesnt deny the AND AN ATHEIST like Adler can follow Aquinas and be without What kind if necessary is Thomas using Sorry if an easy but he says necessary even with those things that could have taken a long time to come to know by natural reason and by a Side I appreciate the sentiment behind the use of the Arabic profile but I get lost as to who is talking NECESSARY to avoid error but more importantly for the obvious although I think this is really answering you is that the preambula fidei can be known by since many cannot figure them out by reason alone due to difficulty time involved that most people they are revealed in The same would be said of the which many argue are precepts of natural and thus discoverable by there was still a need to give them by divine revelation because not everyone figured out that theft or murder or adultery are I think that quote is from Ott Link the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural to know with absolute certainty and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural So the necessity is not because man cannot get there on his but it is more effective to have it through revelation so more men are for just but it seems had the difficulty of necessity earlier Edward my If someone has the actual book by it might be nice to see what he cites for that except knowing the religious and moral truths of the natural order is not the same as being saved I also find it interesting that that formulation says rather than My guess is given the Catherine Not ALL Collins is not a From the More from the same  Emily Norppa A few years Kelly wrote an article for the TAC newsletter about why we study Does anyone happen to have a copy of that which they could send Let me know and private message my email address to other articles about why we study math that simply would be Andrew Seeley Sean Collins Richard Delahide Ferrier Edward Wassell Gregory Froelich Brian Dragoo Nick Ruedig Tom Sundaram So man can know but not all the truths of the faith through But not all men can through hence the way revelation is considered If so then are disagreement with PG would be the some vs all vs any John that explain why listed under of the Catholic True But as the original source of the Aquinas is going back to something The similarity of wording is striking to my eye at This just occurred but do read Catch my enture I mean interrupt your victory your spiking of the Holy Church teaches revelation is needed to know the Lord without So why not study I think what the Church teaches is that most people need to have the both the preambles and the articles of faith revealed to them in order to prevent at least in it is possible for someone to come to know all the preambles without So to know ALL the truths but for some men they can know some of the truths through I think the disagreement is rather men can know the truths of the moral and natural deposit of the the no one has  Is there an implication that Catholics must know how to I sure hope nor would anyone rather I think the context of Vatican I would be caused the not sure that it would follow that you have to know how to read inorder to reason to People saying things that were heard it enture I never know if you are Is there a way to I mean Nicaea is a response to All those Roman what is VI a response I think to rationalism and fideism it was Newman above and below this But seriously as know i think he thunk the It is a consequence of empirical fideism and the followers of Descartes and those of bwahahahahahahahaha Taking Descartes and Pascal as metaphors Trent anathematized Trent was Jansenism was So is position or some new  And Jansenism has primarily to do with the role of grace in I think position comes to although he admit I was thinking Pascal was century And I was thinking the canons on enture I admit it does not come to I have a great This is CATHOLIC Vatican Council The twentieth and up to the last ecumenical opened on and adjourned on Pascal in relation to canons on justification from Sorry at getting distracted by Excuse incomplete thoughts BUT PB doesnt deny it only without He insists on studying sacred science to correct the VI seemed more concerned with rationalism than with fideism is also more of a danger at as far as I can Based on it seemed like it was just about the Pope being wrong and talking about He doesnt grasp that Aquinas has done this already and is smarter than pb in his ability to do Bowing out to go to wade through all this AND THAT IT is necessary to develop reason before approaching sacred years of latin and greek before years of before logic before philosophy before ANY THEOLOGY well i should say metaphysics is followed by sacred So just another distinction Necessary for salvation vs necessary for studying Sacred Theology this just became clear to me as one of the issues we were because half this conversation takes place at unreasonable PB is that which happens when theology precedes the other arts a concrete refutation of his enture for metaphysical knowledge without some Have good Plz stnd In Rock So metaphysical clue what we mean by But we can have some truths through reason without any just it is limited and rare all men or all WE ACTUALLY can follow aquinas wise without withoup On our own no these PB might grant metaphysics is the study of being as being and of the first cause I think an example of the kind of admixture of error there would be is something like Aristotle knew that God was probably thought God was only one there would be an admixture of Aristotle knew God was I see why Evidence of any and see his esse Not sure he had the concept of personal his understanding of the eternity of soul wasnt Knew he had intellect therefore A person is individual substance of a rational Rational nature is defined by possession of Aristotle knew God had Aristotle knew God was if he state as much that Edward not Curiously my sixth sense perceives some doubt of the proposition PB doesnt really deny among Boethius was loooong after and Aristotle does not speak of does And Thomas further develops that definition until even the old Catholic Encyclopedia says it is almost entirely different from In of is developed via complicated Christian Aristotle so far as I when speaking about what we take to be him speaking about never indicates that God has a will or refers to God in any personal I was just trying to think of an but this is One would best look to his ethics to see his notion of a personal I was such a bad TAC when you guys start doing this all I can think is Revenge of the Nerds Clip from Revenge of the Nerds where Ogre and the other football players scream In from what admittedly little we have of he seems to speak of God in remarkably careful and one might say sparse Or Where in his Keep cause not based on lecture he said a lot of sparse Keep denying Samantha Cohoe Tim But to me this is also the fun stuff we talk about when we get hammered and party so give us ANY evidence of a personal God in you know that Aristotle was the only man ever to be He came back as Thomas Do you really need these wild anachronisms to prove your enture Wanted to bounce these examples off you There are two Let me know what you Like I it was just the first example that popped into my It is fun I vaguely recall stuff at the end of the metaphysics that could be understood to imply a personal I think that Aristotle had developed that idea And too lazy to look it Obviously Aristotle never calls God a but he calls Him a living God is always in that good state in which we sometimes this compels our and if in a better this compels it yet And God is in a better And life also belongs to for the actuality of thought is and God is that and actuality is life most good and We say therefore that God is a living most so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to for this is Sounds kind of in Daniel Hammered at a party is the only time I feel the to participate in these other than shouting so I will put it aside for going to remember prime mover was an individual intellectual being and to that extant personal the Latin term wasnt Thank you Pater that was the quote I was going to look by you just mean Pater what I was thinking But I think Aristotle had developed that anywhere close to idea of Most of the time I only participate in this thread when had a nice glass of single malt scotch or rye But He was and What more do we I am not denying that the notion of person is a real the first two Do we have Joel beat This thread moves crazy fast It also has sudden jumps between you disagree that Doll and Flaubert could easily be dumped from Senior how bout them Reading back up the thread and thinking big pictures and gravely risking initiating a discussion I totally do not saying that the Church says is true is true because the Church says madly And kind of an insult to I forgot we read those I think Doll House is but the meh enture When not on or on I liaise with States and Tribes in the The Santee Sioux of Niobrara know God exists by looking at They call God the Great He created the stars and the moon and the fish and everything that came forth from the mouth of the They know God with admixture of most of the Tribe became Catholic about years They still believe in the Great but they call Him God the Father and since they have been taught the they know Him without admixture of They even say they always knew God just that now they know God exists without this shows that you can know God by reason and but you need revelation to know God without I remember Billy Bud at Did we skip that Billy Budd was a Imminently Does the first mover move for a If if then that is a final and that is and that is the proper object of the Therefore Dallas Is Going Down Marc an enthusiastic Buffalo Bills predicts the outcome of Super Bowl then just starts Dallas Buffalo Not As Henry Zepeda can was my main take That and heavy handed tripe about the state of Yah there is no talk of will in not at all sure what we would mean by speaking of a God in terms of what we know of his The Flaubert seminar is what I that argument is just the brilliant men have made that More fully developed of but that is what it is in Flaubert was at I think we talked about how weird and disturbing the stories and how Madame Bovary was Are you really willing to say that the First Mover moves without any purpose or order in Brilliant men have not made that argument to say that Aristotle must have made those extrapolations and inferred a concept that really even exist Oh All I remember is the artwork at his also never read Madame Bovary for some as I said am not denying that the notion of person is a real make that even been explicated Aristotle new that God to be and  And you really expect me to recall have anything from do I realize that this is a point of contention among many but I also know when I make a good and I did make a good You may not like how it you may even have reasons aside from your derisive but I have been studying philosophy and theology at two different graduate institutions and think that I merit the respect of but especially of one at least up to I considered a My favorite part about Aristotle having a concept of the will is how explicitly he takes up the notion in the Nicomachean enture Here is a second and let me know your Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate because of his adherence to moral and metaphysical teaching on the human He said that that Mary was freed from sin after conception because ensoulment takes place after So he had metaphysical knowledge but with A further unfolding of revelation by the Church was needed to correct the Dogma corrected A unity comes into existence at New science supports this Under a identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster not by a division of Revelation is conveyed by the Church in Her Scripture and which informs sacred and this is necessary to remove error from reason and is different than reading Aristotle and praying and going to enture I see another discussion is taking Please look at my examples when you and let me know what you I have to go make but before I ruin our I was not objecting to the outline of your just your argument as attributed to He say that and there any reason to think he would have thought What Samantha But I hope you know not to take anything I say a identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster not by a division of I thought my font looked very and but I see I caused one more tangential in the sense that it was brought up as an but it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal and Aristotle does not speak of God having a or in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his very interesting that you can see a soul under a Who Samantha we believe what the Church teaches because God granted her authority confirmed by miracles and the testimony of saints their and this by the gift of Faith strengthened by acts of also a I thought it was his understanding of that was the Also Thomas was avoiding the prevalent error of those who claimed Mary was cleansed before conception work because before conception there is no heard that there is some disagreement amongst Thomists as to what exactly Thomas taught the We need to get some Scotists and Thomists in here to squabble at this Summon not This thread had a soundtrack in a good long while Matthew what one more Aristotle He it is clear In honour of the feast Eulogy For Monica On August Wiseblood Records will release its inaugural collection of Late to by Sam for is the seventh track of that your copy tod not like we can go on Facebook and look up all his past enture the Church says is is theological data about used in sacred to correct errors in and to further support the reasonability of This is a lot different than saying knowing God by reason is the beginning of You really know God without error by I know Langley disputes but I think the Consider the Native They knew God by reason and nature and They knew God without but with admixture of Even Thomas knew metaphysics by reason but admixture of Consider his false teaching on the Immaculate Conception was derived from false metaphysical notion of anticipating this thread soon topping comments per t a metaphysical it is a physical concept were you directing your comment at some remark of Is that a yes or a enture And as informed how can you claim that your understanding of Dogma inform your reasoning to That being the why you study all of You think metapjysics was without do But I love Come Aristotle predicated the essential attributes of person to God but not the name or and JA Escalante I just got home and come to as you beat me to It is a biological considering the notion of is in some way the of the living really hard to take you seriously when you tell what falls under physics and what falls under metaphysics  Matthew I agree with you about your two points it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal and Aristotle does not speak of God having a or in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his Though I would not say but to I think that my argument concludes such that one must agree with It is an historical Aristotle think and consequently is open to a very limited degree of I am content to leave it at THese guys are all being Why I get to be a No be a jerk then Apparently if a jerk I lose I call double And Daniel actual point was entirely in my and I think everyone he was just picked on a little by jerks for choosing a suspect first example is support for what the other side is that the tribe that comes to know God already had a notion of Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a mixed with error and not fully notion of first example is support for what the other side is that the tribe that comes to know God already had a notion of Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a mixed with error and not fully notion of first example is support for what the other side is that the tribe that comes to know God already had a notion of Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a mixed with error and not fully notion of if memory God in Aristotle is in the category of memory And God move by final causality alone in Metaphysics you can be my friend part because probably WAY bigger of a oooh dinner Taco Tuesday on a I want to be YOUR I want to be Daniel Sending you a friend are ia who are you The Who Who Are Music video by The Who performing Who Are Polydor This is way more fun than making Or In the Committee report stated that any illegal zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Re the Immaculate have no opinion nor am I saying that is necessarily this link has some interesting texts from Thomas that suggest that Thomas at the end of his life held that Mary was immaculately Did Thomas Aquinas Deny the Immaculate We got fired up the other day in our discussion of Blessed John Duns Scotus and the Immaculate seems that I may have been to quick to speak by pas ty clear I think Thomas always affirmed the basic idea of the while denying the account due to his physics I been paying does Peregrin just hate philosophy and Is that a fair seems to hate and thinks that philosophy is just a penumbra of revealed pertaining to created things One does not simply The He always affirmed that she was free from original sin at but the Summa fairly explicitly denies the conception Of other texts fairly plainly affirm no and if Thomas did hold that she I be asnt asking about the just about PB good thing we study Particularly way too much too much philosophy and it start are the doctrines of the and only are the data of Plus I hear TAC lets Protestants That last bit may not actually be an accurate representation of his I get the feeling it far from In any TAC do enough to instruct its students on what the Church teaches and what they must assent all they have written seems as JA Escalante i like the way you capitalized the Katherine were you the first to final causality capitalized for some and has its own FB page An final cause is the aim or purpose being served by final causality of The Who am I am who just finished eating TAC The Thread has also taken the first faltering steps toward the horizon of almost like a new A digital Adam waking up to himself on the morning of a new era of the By the way I am very disappointed to come back and find that nothing was settled after we quieted down enough for the Peregrine to speak his response a few hours The Thread is self The Bootstrapping of world Jormungandr Insert the monkey scene from Space ending Thread How about we take this in a different which TAC class is for instance you handle the ostrich the Thread anywhere the Thread takes enture I hate I just think it is flawed because they tolerate an admixture of error when studying philosophy by from its dogma and sacred theology from its I think it is not being It leads students to believe that they are receiving a truly Catholic liberal when they are Mathew Petterson knows to We appropriate the The thread appropriates you see how Peregrott just started this all over Do TACers cringe at mention of emphatic statements of what the Church Could this be what PB takes offense Are they overly questioning of doctrine for golden the golden gnostic thread that might be I got here an hour ago feeling very superior to everyone who had spent their afternoon arguing with now look at wants a body of doctrine where and in to serve as the core of the with a plain systematic relation to every subject and text in the hang right tacos are better than none ostrich with no JAson been it is a dark place let us be facebook friends you might not know what asking there too late HAHAHAHAHA The Heaviest What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or and said to Neverending as you live it at and have lived you must live it once and also innumerable and there will be nothing new in but every pain and every joy and every thought and every and all the unspeakably small and great in this Thread must come to you and all in the same series and sequence and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the and similarly this and I The eternal of the Thread will ever be turned once and you with you speck of Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your and curse the demon that so Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer are a and never did I hear anything so If that thought acquired power over you as you it would transform and perhaps crush the question with regard to all and you want this once and also for innumerable would lie as the heaviest burden upon your how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The Neverending so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and an elemental and you have let him into your virtual dwelling you and me are facebook y nicer than Beitia The Thread has really been the Axis Mundi all along in It runs through and all turns about choke the demon with the are rapidly becoming one of my fav FB people n I see what you did Isak should write science fiction axis Any minute now the old gods of all the myths will take hold of The Thread at any and rotate it divinely about in a thereby creating a Cosmic Conic All things will emanate from that center point in slowly widening concentric circles when seen at a certain point in or And Zeus shall dangle Hera in chains from one end of The Golden and we all shall weep for our metaphysics of the axis mundi and the divine milieu glad enjoying my growing madness JA haha naaaaaaaah the old gods of and never released their hold enture JA pushed this conversation along with a false And may it continue until we find the truth about Faith and I think Aristotle and Thomas would want it that faith is the bridge between reason and the he false Is PB the pb his SW in the bay Here We Go Again OPERATION IVY not the ending Its the beginning The ground is moist and it rained last night Smells like smoke and it smells so clean The sun is shining down ng for Peregrine to tell me what my i finally figured out TNET must form a circle extended a and we are all hamsters making it return to the And we are chasing a hopeless I feel really stupid the final causality I really have a dog in this but it does sound like proposed curriculum would be BORING What do you mean you have a dog in this This is a TAC not a Catholic ting code waiting Though as has been initial questions are And it is a rare TACer indeed who does not have a laundry list of complaints about the the problem is that PB simply will not admit when his claims have been and he then repeats the charges ad nauseam John if the return is it is no longer a Maybe the joke is and the real is the Maybe there is no longer any need for nor for when you become part of The Neverending feel Be Let the common good of the Thread heal you as part to but if the complaint is that TAC Catholic then but not sure I ntha not simply a an actual claim about the principles and ratio studiorum of the college hich happens to be false And yet and The longer one refuses to let go and embrace The Neverending the more one contributes to its being and enture My claims have not been You and others stated Vat I claims you can know God by reason In you but not without admixture of as the Native and even Thomas and can know God by reason alone but not without You need an outlay of revelation in dogma and theology to perfect This begs the why does TAC not teach this yet claims it presents a truly Catholic liberal IS THIS me of the things saying do point to problems within the as almost all of us readily admit I have a question and call me but who is the Final Arbiter of what is truly a liberal MAGISTERIUM i am going to break In a Coming Soon To A Thread Near You The main problem with the curriculum is that not all other curriculums That really sucks about You know maybe we should just only read things written by fix enture Even Thomas could not know God and metaphysics by reason without some You how come you guys say you How come you hate Next year people will be giving up The Neverending Thread for a backpedaling save from your earlier unqualified The question admixture of error might be quite the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him And it and Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level but also things we would never know by but necessarily deny like the but revelation your not just metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human And the metaphysics it thus uses is relatively In the year the US Bishops will tell American Catholics they must give up The Neverending Thread on all normal what would it take to change your the Magisterium defines what is truly a Catholic liberal Is Peregrine representing the Magisterium enture How come you guys know the relationship between dogma and theology and how it informs How come you claim you can know God without error by reason when you know ou Peregrine are using the fact of admixture of without ever noting whether it is really significant to invalidate a relatively metaphysics and replace it with a which looks like Fideistic gnosis enture Just Pope Peregrine represents He IS the PB stop inquisitioning us and ask yourself why you readily assented at least different come you cant even tell the difference between physics and as in the Imm Con And saying have problems with What I want to know is what sort of computer voodoo Edward Langley is doing to compile those stats on this enture Do you guys believe you can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some Please yes or t originally claim some Just acknowledge your It wont be the end of the  next time TAC sends me a donation request I am sending the letter back marked the JA defending explaining magisterial teaching to enture do you think you can know God or metaphysics by reason always without Yes or I look away from this say I believe one can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some All that means is I say enture St Thomas and the Church state you cannot know God and metaphysics by reason always without What say enture What say you No they enture What say like to see citation for not the dear The issue is whether the error such is always and not clear that it see is substantially or I have already given the orthodox account It is not necessarily vitiating enough to render metaphysics impossible without Why are you mocking The question admixture of error might be quite the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him And it and Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level but also things we would never know by but necessarily deny like the but revelation your not just metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human science Out of what metaphysical error are you claiming St Thomas Because all I recall are being pointed out thus far are errors either of physical science or theology not enture What say Can you know God and metaphysics by reason always without The Church says error on the Immaculate Conception demonstrates This being the why do you not teach dogma at Is that What say club this What would teaching dogma look still not clear on how sophomore or senior just to take two fail to ssing this idiosyncratic Nouvelle Theologie on steroids has been illuminating in certain respects THAT is i think the point he will give in What do we get wrong following STA in his Out of curiosity how do you understand error on the immaculate enture my good if that is your then you are ok with error in which is enture see Answer the Peregrott because it was pointed earlier that Thomas re IC is not a metaphysical error just sayin What you pointed to above were problems understanding of physical or at most natural One could also argue that Thomas also erred theologically in failing to understand Scripture and at least as far as I can metaphysical notions have nothing to do with why he accept the immaculate so to answer say I say to that you question makes no sense because you have no idea what metaphysics since you make such a glaringly STUPID category error enture Let me JA et al argue that reason alone is necessary for sacred Church teaches that revelation is necessary to preserve reason from error about God and Escalante does not know how Church teaches revelation in Her dogmas and sacred wrong with this unless by you mean everything that you defined away as in which case you are a blathering idiot argued that reason alone is necessary for sacred I think denied No one ever said Straw man  for at home now why you go ahead and find somewhere where said what you attribute to I have one more hour at I feel like never seen any of thing things Peregrine claims except in his own Perhaps he himself thinks these and hates himself for and is projecting on us as a coping go ahead and find somewhere where said that People the have claimed that God can be known with certainty by reason You do see that this is not the same as saying that reason alone suffices for Sacred The only reason we are still all in this thread is the length of this The thread has become the cause of the this thread participates in and thus all of us who participate in this thread also participate in The position that disparages the study of metaphysics is ultimately Protestant Cf Regansburg Address unfortunately it is a manichean and on the wrong side of it ainly not true that Protestantism disparages metaphysics But we must press as participation in opposition is better than ceasing to a Calvinist This thread is not an imitation of the an imitation of twitter where everyone basically follows everyone I am pretty sure that no body has claimed that reason alone is necessary for Earlier you objected to the claim that it was possible to have knowledge of God by reason contrary to the magisterial pontifications of the pre and post conciliar But to suggest that the claim was reason alone was sufficient for theology is crass disrespect for the positions held hence the put up your claws poor reading skillz In his his argumentum ab ignorantia seems He doesnt know what metaphysics or metaphor  or syllogism or the difference between some and all enture We must conclude that TAC with crass Is it possible to know cause effect without the gift of PB is too hopped up on all the attention getting in this thread to read and respond to things that have ACTUALLY BEEN Is it possible to know of the division of mover and of moved in beings in Like the conclusion of a Facebook is like an irresponsible If they were looking at this we all would have been cut off by just waiting for Langley to recalculate the got to be pushing a grand by now wait what there are totals by Of sets paper on Oh waaaay back pre Catechism of the Catholic Church WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD Created in image and called to know and love the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know These are also called proofs for the existence of not in the sense of proofs in the natural but rather in the sense of and convincing which allow us to attain certainty about the These of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of the physical and the human The starting from and the order and one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the As Paul says of the For what can be known about God is plain to because God has shown it to Ever since the creation of the world his invisible his eternal power and has been clearly perceived in the things that have been And Augustine issues this Question the beauty of the question the beauty of the question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing question the beauty of the question all these All we are Their beauty is a profession These beauties are subject to Who made them if not the Beautiful One who is not subject to The human with his openness to truth and his sense of moral his freedom and the voice of his with his longings for the infinite and for man questions himself about In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual The the of eternity we bear in irreducible to the merely can have its origin only in The and attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final but rather that they participate in Being which alone is without origin or in different man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all a reality everyone calls faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in The proofs of can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to Beitia has had me lol more the last two days than the last years from things read on Aaron Dunkel nice catechism but you need to quote from the Magisterium or the Deposit of That is also Unless you have a Humean epistemology leading to an event in which case you may think you know cause and but you are Substance ontology and power model of causality he already heretically denied VI I will now quote from the blah blah quote from the Imperium who are about to salute that what you are looking I was thinking your but whatever I said but I was being reactionary and I shall avoid It clearly does more harm than morituri te And now for something completely VIDEO Dumbass Manages to Set Himself on Fire During Ice Bucket Challenge If you had to imagine the platonic form of a failed ALS Ice Bucket it would probably involve a guy in camo cargo pants and an it really makes no just here for the lolz anyway This Thread really does need to be immortalized must conclude that TAC with crass I consider that a slap in the face with your I accept your challenge and insist you choose your Put or shut oh take him seriously on the again like to see citations for Otherwise just blah ot appropriate for an alumni like really not d remove it old and going to second that he is NOT an As with reason is material heretic The spectrum of Get rid of that ear garbage Autism spectrum the free encyclopedia The autism spectrum or autistic spectrum describes a range of conditions classified as neurodevelopmental disorders in the fifth revision of the American Psychiatric Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders edition The published in redefined the Aaron Dunkel WTF was another of my ways of being Isak i now wish i could read his eminating from the fence of those The irony it was an but terribly imprudent music video not saying anything worth Take it as a badge of honor I enture At the story the go from class to Their faith is in the seminar where ignorance is we will forget it ever happened enture Ah my lose an argument by denying embrace and My mind is what dogma have I That is what been and that happened We have denied no embraced no and done the opposite of What planet are you you darling Magisterius the most repetitive assertion filled planet in the galaxy I ask for proof of your You simply throw out inflammatory accusatory comments without backing them and can  strike he CAN but he Poor been here since the raising a glass for you right now enture If knowledge of metaphysics and God by reason alone is not possible without and the Church provides a remedy in Her dogma and why does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the dogma and theology into its Why does the college teach that metaphysics is necessary for a full development of when the opposite is true metaphysics can only be freed from error by theology informed by Why did TAC establish its curriculum on this false Is this because TAC adheres to Liberalism instead of the truly Catholic liberal Or was it because the founders of the college were You uncovered the TAC was established by modernists who cling to the heresy of Americanism and that Masonic invention of Vatican is necessary for a full development of and can only be freed from error by are not contradictory enture Megan what That Thomas erred in Or that TAC errs in its understanding of Faith and where did Thomas err in In the bishops will allow children under seven who can as well as the old and to continue to use the Thread on But all others will be encouraged to The smell of sulfur greets you as you approach the a sign of the hellfire which lurks behind the gates of the I guess not clear on how TAC does not the dogma and theology into its See the peregrine fly from my chicken really are you a Just  he Trust me Thomas Aquinas is called the Angelic doctor due to his grasp on sacred and we devote considerable time to studying his work say nothing about other doctors of the really not seeing your I guess my University is bad because it now requires taking philosophy before enture mr smartest man in the who said these were I just said TAC errs by in principle and that metaphysics without relevation leads to error about you dumbass and I quote OPPOSITE IS Scotis was wrong about the IC also does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the dogma and theology into its This is utter and anyone with half a brain can see that just by virtue of the fact that TAC students spend TWO FULL YEARS reading Thomas Aquinas himself Doctor of the TAC as a school does not merely allow the dogma into its it wholly supports It gives Thomas THE position of The fact that you cannot even grant a modicum of respect to this argument or to the school tells me that you are a willfully ignorant CUA requires a year of philosophy And a semester of theology which may be done either semester  pope pb excommunicates neopalagian can you please enumerate the errors which Metaphysics reaches without Clearly enumerate Otherwise this shall continue to be a thread full of rinse that not enjoying the but can you please make a list of the errors which are admixed with the derail this I finally got him to answer me Hey nonny nonny and a As an this thread has made my friend list sky enture TAC does not provide an outlay of the theology informed by In almost all of its students to not even know what this On the TACs Charter asserts that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of The curriculum of TAC is established on this false This claim is false because metaphysics and knowledge of God is not without admixture of error by reason but only by the need for an outlay of the dogmatic An Thomas and Aristotle erred in metaphysical understanding of the cause of the leading Thomas to argue against the Immaculate Everyone is making friends except the cause of ensoulment is STILL Scott do you know whence comes JA Escalante i think Peregrine Bonaventure just identified the premise of which he your example is NOT an example But yet another glaring category error You sound similar to somebody who proposes the outlawing of butchering cattle because you can buy beef at the grocery Theology can not be fully  enture John I just need to list Aristotle erred in his notion of Thomas erred on this point This was a moral and metaphysical question about the formal unity of This error was the reason why Thomas and the Dominicans denied the Immaculate There are many The Church teaches that God and metaphysics cannot be known by reason alone without admixture of The Church sacred and dogmatic informed by purges metaphysics of This is why TAC cannot rest on the claim that metaphysics and reason alone bring the full development of This is why TAC must provide instruction of dogmatic in order for it not to participate in crass Gotta I love posts What say i need to explain my above PB doesnt deny V I as far as i can The real problem is that to be an you have to understand THAT you reject an and at least imprecisely at least what that article But on both it is doubtful in He has shown he cannot grasp words all the while railing against the need for reason to have I say that the denial of the Immaculate Conception was BIOLOGICAL i think pb is Does it matter if Thomas Does that negate the necessity of metaphysics in explicating divine immaculate conception is to no to the rest of The IC is not a metaphysical It is a theological the repudiation of which was biological IC is not It is IC was when the magesterium declared maybe but saying that women have souls until X days after conception is a biological that was factually Thought what if biology showed that DNA show up until day after then Of word please help IC the only time the magesterium declared itself is the truth Who is this Scott What is he like in I believe the things and I believe Sometimes he says things that make me think dealing with a human Am I posted comments Frank only twice did the Pope speak The Immaculate and Assumption body and soul into I believe the other ex cathedra papal proclamation was the doctrine of the Assumption of the BVM thanks Isak Benedict I understand the I meant only to say that infallible is a word meaning incapable of A statement is not infallible but the body declaring it might be are you back in Isak helped problem with I distracted from your question Ok so we read anyone that was ever wrong about any matter is what getting out of I still owe you a and still like to read your pope benedict started his letter on faith with tell what about Pope Michael Beitia that was a german That is the way to Everyone is wrong except Pope Pastor Aeternus indicates a much broader range of when he DEFINES a matter of Faith to the whole Church as the supreme JPII infallibly taught on abortion and women priests one other matter i Ahhh makes So what is his understanding of the Immaculate Wait a the reason it took so long to define because we had to make it aka it be a during time and were saying it happened before conception which work since there was no human nature at that The IC took the Church almost years to it work well as an example for no it doesnt HUGE recent slew of articles on whether canonizations are i think an example that is more pleasing to God than anything John there are disagreements about whether or not those instances meet all of the qualifications necessary for a teaching to be considered The two I mentioned are the only ones that meet every single criterion far as I out for canonization is considered infallible but not to the same is the wrong word to use enture Grace perfecting nature does not mean reading Aristotle in a prayerful as Daniel It means reading metaphysics in light of the dogmatic theology of the Church informed by a Catholic curriculum which includes but not the dogmatic theology of the is that you I summarized the Its in Pastor only maybe But there is debate and need for One It seems to me a tacit lesson of the curriculum is the capability of human error in all the human mind is also capable to recognize Theology has of course a greater but aquinas err because he refused to a submit to that i read but at the it was all the song of little prancing in the light of a major long held objection in regard to canonization is that it doesnt involve doctrine but is judgement of a contingent Doesnt mean it shouldnt be held de fide without very serious And then this is only the opinion of the Roman Let me be clear that I have no reason at all to doubt any canonization under the rules of Urban VIII but since their removal some Catholics just have been troubled by particular the consensus view at this find it a bit easier to be Catholic if I have to believe in all canonizations de what specifically do you propose TAC should add to the so as to teach the old are very I didnt have doubt til about a month Its ok to hold a doubt I have wavered a I have other reasons I have heard some would leave the church I at this we need to move into the of this I that was not an actual but a combination of three or four different sources that existed at the beginning of the Nice By TACers know how to apply the i dont know the The majority view i that they are But this position itself is not If u Peregrine Bonaventure your  Joshua Kenz probably knows if there are any authoritative pronouncements on the infallibility of was taught that they are infallible but I know the justification for I went to the Catholic University of America in and we taught anything BUT the oh social Because Democrats All canonization is that this person was an example of It imply anything about the appropriateness of imitating their particular actions or about the truth of their intellectual This is but hardly CATHOLIC Beatification and Canonization According to some writers the origin in the Catholic Church is to be traced back to the ancient pagan apotheosis What is heroic That is a problem these I guess thinking of cases where the canonizations follow any particular display of evidence but were made for pretty clearly political Thomas Becket for there are lots of saints I so I think any amount of evidence can ever provide the degree of certitude miracles can be like That it seems to me that it is impossible in principle a universal revelation from to provide enough evidence to convince each person in the world that person X really is in heaven from that evidence there will always be a gap between the evidence the Church presents for a sanctity and the certitude implied by her judgment on the I think the evidence relate to canonization the way dialectical arguments about principles relates to intellectus of them that analogy makes any is part of this but so is free thanks for this i needed a thanks for the i would be cautious about your seemingly human Neri was entirely opposed to Ignatius in life but both are in heaven they just human Human objections are the only kind I Miracles ARE the strongest When the definition of miracle changes is a miracle defies actually interesting that Thomas denies that a miracle violates the natural since the natural order of things is for all creatures to obey the will of As Augustine puts miracles violate the order of one of my favorite saints is no historical lots of miracles IX was personally The majority view is canonization is but with a strong minority Lots has been written on the matter I follow the rationale of the majority and find the minority position But as a Catholic one would still owe obsequium so practically speaking there all that much right and it is a matter of precept too which the linked article reminded me is a matter of I am so impressed by the intelligence and kindness of so many people on this This is quite Sometimes I just sit back and read as the comments pop enture How Edward though can only be believed in The comments are a roller coaster of intelligence and kindness and inanity and but the sheer quantity is what continues to amaze me enture The dogmatic theology is informed by It is wonderful to study under a trained TAC should avail students to if only as an to help them at least see how faith and metaphysics and faith work together If TAC did this a bit truly you would conquer the But till something is stopping Being stopped is not a good thing to We can discuss more practical applications in a You know what would be If there were some way of figuring not the number of comments or quantity of but the physical length of The I since it is Threadness that such a question is But maybe if it could be printed out on a roll of we might be able to approximate its A roll of toilet No toilet paper is too noble for the stomping grounds of the Toilet paper has a In all I was thinking a roll of teletype like The enture On second dogmatic theology might be a bit above you A wise man speaks because he has something to A because he has to say Do you feel better after that little piece of Sometimes humor is necessary to keep spirits alive and to keep plowing through enture Tis not but a bit of practical Trust Along the same I was just wondering how many hours a dramatic reading of this thread would enture How many TACers does it take to change a light this would be a very short thread if composed by wise Though it might be better as an then we could have multiple parts going at Nina a dramatic reading would be I propose we cast The Thread with actors of distinctive I know about you but hearing Alan Rickman in my head as Peregrine I trust you as far as I could throw a good trying to think of who for Jack Nicholson as Michael enture Freshman theology should include an intro to dogmatic because revelation is not just the but the Bible and tradition informing the dogmatic Then would be reading the Bible in as a formal not just as a This would be the first Al Pacino as Josh enture You could never throw me But trust is not and ouch Did you just call yourself Haha Any examples or explanations of what such an intro would enture You could throw me so trust me i was it has to be an Peterson should be Morgan Freeman Wait so I could never throw but I could also throw The man is a Someone please get him some I see PB more as a Wallace Shawn enture you could start with the dogmatic theology on the Immaculate This is original source You could add this to when you read the Book of Revelation or the Wisdom That would be very easy and Someone give this man a i see Drawing a complete And Matthew Peterson more as a Jeff Bridges enture You could add the dogmatic theology on faith and reason all original during the Wisdom or even during the This would be fun and easy to There is an ongoing dialogue between the two Dogma supports and perfects enture Thank you enture But call me Jeff that is a good but I really think someone should be Morgan May I peel you a Perhaps Your Excellency requires a I would offer my own but it is too unworthy for Your Wisdom to rest his superior feet Jug enture Throw me enture Reading Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists Put on your fighting Fighting Trousers Professor Elemental you can now follow us on twitter The first singe from professor the indifference I like your settle for Sam Elliott playing the Big Andrews Dear heavens this thread has looped around and back at the wrong with reading the Bible as There is no The Threadness is without Under I get up in the morning for less than Not even for the tantalizing smell of some good holistic sacred John the voice choices Those actors have distinctive bullshit on your Jack tall failure to make distinctions is what dumb people do good to be back unless it is flew take that sixteen more til break out the fireworks I was thinking One Flew ah and I just you Welcome home Beitia I am back from and you are short of lazy post padders Although I think the tall factor would not matter for a radio Michael I want to hear whatever harebrained theory PB has about reading the Bible as a piece of magnificent So Be nope Hey talk to me when you crack the top five Is everyone waiting to jump on I think I missed by one today so screw not trying again I must be cruel only to be I think you got Is think worse than it was you nope congrats beitia you are the winner Do I get a always wanted a pony not trying  pretty sure it was you now that reached I can sleep apparently so can everyone Can you imagine freshmen reading about the immaculate We might as well jump to the Also Freshmen theology comes from St advice to familiarize once self with scripture before embarking deeper into Also part of the point is teaching us sola scriptura work and we come out of freshmen year appreciating that we do need the teaching Commenting on this thread is starting to feel like fighting your way to the very front of a train hurtling towards a And infinity is over the Lauren You are taking much more seriously than I that latest grand insanity from Pope Lauren so I came to TAC as an who had read the Bible a several It is an like counting is to arithmetic I thought I would Listening to freshmen discuss scripture was hard The immaculate conception would have been What you and the funny thing one can have the truths of the faith presented to and still take it as a cultural Catholics believe such and the Zen the ultimate goal is blah blah Just because it is presented mean it requires any assent other than from a perspective Positions my new start up TNET A I took method and now free from TNET World Spirit Networking recommends And WE NEED This could always end up on twitter with I prefer Either this thread reminds me of twitter back around Moses supposes his toes are but gnosis is erroneous seen a single TACer screw in a light bulb on multiple Thanks work when michael tell him i have a first are free discount in the step Michael is here I Edward The Church has not definitively taught on the infallibility of Benedict tried to underscore it by ceasing to do most restoring the old way of having someone else A beatification of course is either merely permissive for or only orders veneration for a particular It is because of the universality of canoization that an argument can be In condemning the Council of the Church required it to be held that in matters of universal the Church cannot impose anything on the faithful positively So while a better practice may the UNIVERSAL discipline cannot be positively Canonization is at in a universal even not every saint is actually venerated by all the faithul Mass Thomas wrote on this The argument for the infallibility of canonization rests solely on it affecting the universal prayer of the If the saints we pray to were actually in the worship is in Whether all saints which are canonized by the Church must be in or may some of them be in And it seems that some can be in of those who are canonized in the Church For no one can be certain of the state of just as he himself of since what belongs to a no one knows but the spirit of the which is in as it says in I But man cannot be certain of whether he is in the state of for it is said in one whether he be worthy of hate or the Pope knows much therefore he can err in whoever in judging begins with a fallible means can But the Church in canonizing saints begins with human since she inquires through witnesses about the life and since the testimony of men is it seems that the Church can err in canonizing the But against in the Church there cannot be a damnable But this would be a damnable if one were venerated as a saint who was a since some knowing his sins would believe this to be and it such were to they could be led to Therefore the Church cannot err in such Augustine says in a letter to that if in the canonical Scripture some lying is our which depends on the canonical would be But just as we are held to believe that which is in the sacred just so that which is commonly determined by the Whence he is judged a heretic who opines against the determination of the the common judgment of the Church cannot be and thus the same as said I respond that it must be that something can be judge possible considered according to which related to something is found to be I say that the judgment of those who preside in the Church can err in whatever if in respect to their persons But if divine providence is which directs His Church by the Holy Spirit that it may not just as He promised in John the coming Spirit shall teach every namely in things necessary for it is certain that it is impossible for the judgment of the universal Church to err in those things which pertain to the pronounced in judgment by the pope to whom it pertains to make determinations about the are to stand more than the opinions about Scripture of any of the wise Since it is read that although he was since since he was also prophesied John But in other statement which pertain to particular as when it treats of possessions or crimes or others of this it is possible for the judgment of the Church to err because of false But the canonization of the saints is a mean between these the honor which we exhibit to the is a certain profession of the by which we believe in the glory of the it must be piously believed that the Church is also unable to err in To the it must be said that the to whom it belongs to canonize can be made certain of the state of another through the inquisition of life and the attestation of and precisely through the inspiration of the Holy who examines all even the profound things of To the second it must be that divine providence preserves the Church lest in such things it is deceived by the fallible testimony of men Quodlibet ad In dumb terms ie Some of the Church can err in its even The whole Church Beatiication is of the canoniztion is all of what I  It looks to me that what it comes down to is that there is a widely held theological opinion that canonization is an exercise of but no definitive statement to that And as far as I can there is not likely to be The CE article Edward linked is more comprehensive bvt STA gives the best reason for By the way John this is a long time coming sorry I was so belligerent back in the of this I do believe I misunderstood your that was another Lots of I took nothing personal and its hard to see intent or expression behind a what ALL CAPS ARE ANGRY i am also belligerent and Hard to know how it any thoughts on ontological What do remember about it from junior outsourcing lecture prep due to getting home OR TO BE SEEN over the mellifluous lalagations of How many people on this thread are mes iously is I claim a teaching job on tax You know what i w what you meant Yup is Daniel Lendman is a grad know if he teaches any Not thank God BACK to the canonization my objection derives from the same principle as It is serious I wish it were not But the Faith itself is at I leave it at that and say only I am certain of the gine an argument for canonization which compromise the principle of indefectibility or anything else essential to RC belief Escalante I have seen such arguments But they are hard to reconcile with albeit hard to state the authority condemnation of Pistoia Church has a habit of list and then say they are all savoring of favorable to sectarianism offensive to pious without saying which is what proposition is Forget I just took in your whole but i think i will revert to my much safer So Joshua and have a narrower argument that affect infallibility of Maybe i will pm getting paid to teach Just taught sophomores about Raymond and Bohemond of the Crusade But if tac taught the of the magisterium of the this be a question right man knows I need an app just for this silly Thread has an app for you already I only lived next to Beitia and with the other carlin The Thread has already carved your a The Yankees was the now back to al newe professirs and teacheres about to Ye are An invisible beneficent unicorn shal protect yow on yower first I am a teacher in at least one sense of the  But do not John for it has also built your But did it nurse  Back to Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists What say I see this being I agree with I think a fair reading of the text is permissible by Catholics without being somehow framed by doctrine it be read first at face Because that is a disturbing image A propos of did you all know that today is Born August A ghost is haunting this thread As usual with he has some interesting things to say mixed in with I do not entirely disagree with that insofar as it is quite true that the Protestant approach to Holy Scripture is as it while the Catholic approach is guided by Church That does not therefore mean that to read the for as any other is to be a Protestant or I think there is much fruit in sometimes reading it the way one might The As long as one does not do so Does that make sort of thinking as I go Daniel I feel suddenly I find the no personal God in cliché What to be people really mean by If what they mean is that Aristotle did not have a concept of the person then just But notice that they never say does not think that human beings are which is just as obvious is that But if they mean that Aristotle denies something essential to the person of then demonstrably as the opposite is I find it surprising that Matthew Peterson takes up this vacuous since it gives him ammunition for his war on idea of an anhistorial but slightly surprised that you take up the cliché Samantha since Caleb is so good at exploding similarly vacuous clichés about teaching on the FWIW Frederick Copleston gives exactly the same argument as Big Angry Daniel and Edward Langley the question of a personal god in Aristotle a question that only arose in Neoplatonism and then with the It was fundamentally a question of what sort of CAUSES his god THAT he knows is I believe Matthew affirmed what Daniel and Edward I should say as I see it there are two ways to approach the historically by asking Aristotle think God is a and philosophically Aristotle attribute to God the characteristics of a Historically the question is since the notion of arose with the attempts to model the the question is the definition of substantia rationalis applicable to the God Aristotle I think it is and it is trivial to show rational here just means an God has an intellect and is a more difficult is for Aristotle to determine how many individual substances God But even Aristotle has some hint of the Thomas quote De Caelo as having some Obviously all the implications of being a person explicit in but LONG LIVE ARISTOTHOMAS Or is it This is all The question of in God or gods has nothing to do with the a question about relation to we assert personhood as the God of The God who spoke to Moses from the God definitely thought Aristotle was a  god do this sort of a different sense of was going to note but thought my intention was You and Copleston are treating this in far to pat a As I alluded to the question is about what sort of causes god heard a passage in the Eudemian Ethics cited where Aristotle claims that when an ignorant man performs a virtuous he was inspired by the first But never been able to find such a Does god understand universal causes If then he she is in no sense a personal I took Daniel claim to be knew that God is a person but not that God was three Matthew Peterson asked for evidence and several of us responded in various god understands what makes me want to go to Burger King at then god is a personal On the question of I say read Thomas article in the Review of You should engage with the claim and not tell me to go read an article long ago This is very much a problem of Neoplatonic philosophy and Arabic the two parts of philosophical history that TAC casts a blind eye personal is from an individual intellectual substance that can be personable or saying that argument is incidental to the sense using I grant that hard to determine what Aristotle thinks God knows and thus hard to determine if God is a God in the sense but I no one besides you is thinking of in that If you want to insist that bear these two not sure how to proceed in this I was avoiding saying that knew that God is a because that could imply that Aristotle knew that God is which would be But Copleston just blowing smoke Secudum rem That persuade Coppleston is saying that is or individual substances having a rational I defend because I like his style and because not sure I have enough context to judge his nature is beyond reason all three of the monotheistic traditions affirm what trying to is that too pat to simply assert definition of personhood and then look back to Aristotle and say his god thinking of was a Fair Katherine just noticed what the intent of your comment The implication sounds like it would rule out anything besides negative As a Thomist and a I would claim that Augustinus probably earlier who claim personhood knowledge of all universal and for stick with as the one I know in his refutation of argument against divine foreknowledge in City of God that he claims God knows all causes and particular and What do you think of the Dionysian superessential whatever I just realized James Layne been made one with the Thread Rye and typing mix verry a rye man I can trust you This is my There are many like but this one is My thread is my best It is my I must master it as I must master my My without is Without my I am I must fire my thread I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill I must shoot him before he shoots I My thread and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we the noise of our nor the smoke we We know that it is the hits that We will My thread is even as because it is my I will learn it as a I will learn its its its its its sights and its I will keep my thread clean and even as I am clean and We will become part of each We Before I swear this My thread and I are the defenders of my We are the masters of our We are the saviors of my So be until victory is and there is no but seems to think that God know particulars but a lot would depend on what relation to the gods since they do and if the gods are somehow then He does in a way know particulars it translate perfectly but pretty a lot of equivocation going on and Daniel can get crankypants about this topic Although if Aristotelian philosophy implies that God is infinitely then he would be a principle of knowing all creatures and in his he would know all urse directly sees crankypantsness I realise that scholarship would deny infinite perfection of But they seem to be largely caught up in here are several steps missing and a somewhat Thomistified reading of In case Pater Edmund is God is most definitely Mind and and thus in the philosophic sense I realize but I happen to think that Thomas gets Aristotle right of the With friends like not to dodge the question on but at bottom more interested in an ethnological at the same time concept of realized by Abraham in promise of Isaac subsequent command for sacrifice and realized by the Apostles in the Transfiguration at the very at and realized by Muhammad in the revelation of the by the angel Prescinding from the question of the truth or falsity of those experiences for a THAT is a PERSONAL God the thick Daniel your PERSONAL is way too You write knowledge of all universal and according that definition I am not a You mistake my meaning applying that to For God to be personal in this he has to have chosen knit you together in your I was just trolling r Dan is just saying that is what personhood would entail given what person is in the stipulated and what God is Where is John Brungardt in all you got Maybe JA is right I am getting a bit which sounds like something Nina Gapinski would say he question of revelation that simple a The Greeks had and those oracles were of the and if the gods are somehow God then its mediated but still somehow God talking to a lot like the Vodoun distinction between the lwa talk to and Bondye but the lwa Bondye in I think Aristotle thinks something like more or less viewing on my phone and something must be wrong I keep clicking previous but there is no end maybe What the hell This will make good reading Thanks for notifying Joshua not sure in this what are we to make of the rather strong nature of As Plato tells at through when the gods are like Zeus and this just leads us into The poets I like your Vodoun gods act by the necessity of despite what Timaeus e you I am not a member of the Neoplatonic and thus I have no magisterial doctrine of harmonia binding upon me  I think if the world is eternal is at least the supposition in Physics then you need a first mover thinking of who never could the gods be Homer seems to show them so except maybe I guess you could have planetary intelligences who are in some Interacting with us in some way articulars does not necessitate or imply btw As Augustine shows in his City of Hold you implying if the world is not you can have a first mover that What did St Augustine think about the   You COULD but you need The eternality requires a god who never but a world which begins in time seems to could have a changeable or an unchangeable  Who exorcized the Pythian I God or both are consistent with a world that Maimonides would back me up here I Are you saying as far as the evidence the world God could be Or that it could have a source other than It seems to me that while there is a particular argument based on a supposed eternity of the world the in the Summa contra particularly the every argument for God ends with his unchangeability ends I means leads not as if it is the final end of Changeable things need an unchangeable all the more so if the world is not eternal What did test of all the famous oracles show about their But swerve is not the origin of the even in Lucretiu I I want to get into defending Lucretius here I never much cared for his but his changeable world have a changeable The swerve is not the source of the It is the source of things not determined will And I was more thinking about the truth of the not a listing of what some pagan Not has someone but I asked youwhat youclaim about the actual evidence This world as we know it would not have come into existence were it not for the swerve of atoms in the  I agree with he book I was referring to for any Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals I guess all I would care to defend at this point is the possibility of a world with a changeable first ngeable first cause is an absurdity t even need the definite absurdity I know what about an anthropomorphic deity who decides not to create a world then later he changes his mind and creates s not metaphysics the world can be created by a mutant ninja but in the world has to have an unchanging first cause That I all I was getting Note that many people who talk a lot about a end up denying His immutability theism Now the only problem since you hold an immutable God you are claiming that one cannot clearly see the invisible things of from the creation of the and understand by the things that are His eternal power and Again we are not interested in what someone might but in what the truth God is If the world does not require an unchanging first in then we do not get to God through at least not on those What would Nietzsche say about fairytale and but more to the I think I see what you are If there is to be a first cause there need not then the first cause must be my point is that if you investigate the ancient they seem unanimous that the gods were bad or Wherefore in his commentary on Chrysostum criticizes Socrates for sacrificing to a god he knew was false But there needs be a first or do you think such is just an hypothesis far as reason not knowable by I aware open theism was a synonym for theistic I think Aristotle shows very clearly in his Physics for a world whose existence is infinite at least not in its then a first mover is and Augustine points out the frauds of the pagan theologians and priests in the City of The common assumption is that Aristotle takes the more difficult in choosing the eternal Because if much easier to Yep but that does not mean that if the world is not a first mover is not the The main argument gathered from the Physics amounts to the which is all about the hic et nunc of motion Also he takes that because what is presupposed by the Also eternity until bk Bk gives first I want to seem cagey I think there is an eternal immutable source of everything that But the question is whether there needs to be a first mover more to the whether we can know this with I think we but not so sure the way in the Summa does the Well you can always take  So the faulty Or is the argument not The newest graph  vertical time in horizontal axis I want to drag in another figure but by comparison to what is missing is a full proof that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes as well as the unicity of the first mover that there is only one of Ah sure Thomas knew I think the Summa is a So giving us the shortest versions of these Does he need to show only one The fact that there is only one comes up in All you need is A he claims that unless one can show that there is only one you demonstrate the Christian I suppose learn all about Scotus this semester in Tim Scotus Tim Noone is amazingly like a walking encyclopedia If going to learn what better person to learn from than a Well I like forthright otherwise my sniffers go I think it seems weird to say there is a first but that it is an open question whether there needs to think that is to ignore what a first mover That is like saying this power cord is in a thus powering the but need not be in order to power the It both receives its motion from the battery and does not need the battery for that motion at the same If it already possesses what it there is a prior cause to If it does there must If there is a first there must be a first That amounts to little more than a tautology I kinda would like to see Socrates take Tim Noone on at least the last few hundred comments were quite This was a Time flies when having fun contemplating basic  Where are the standings I still want to this question regarding god I think JA opened up some interesting avenues regarding Greek pagan thought about god For now off to bed as nearly Carry ye west coasters My short answer for now is that all about the assertion that there be an infinite But I think Scotus solves it probably Thomas in the but not Top Peregrine Bonaventure Michael Beitia John Ruplinger Edward Langley JA Escalante Daniel Lendman Catherine Ryland Isak Benedict Matthew Peterson Pater Edmund Aquinas gives three arguments for that in the Summa Contra gentiles I have advanced beyond JA Isak Benedict has moved up two s the Unmoved Mover Sam Rocha Joel HF Lauren Ogrodnick Jody Haaf  Nina Rachele Marina Shea Daniel Philip Knuffke John Boyer Frank Morris Megan Caughron John Boyer is the promising newcomer Well I think a day job precludes breaking the top but who I am Post padding like it never been done Lauren Ogrodnick and Joel HF have moved upwards Arg contra infinite regress is taken from other Taken for guessing theo students would be Most of my comments are idle Philip Knuffke is falling And that was all in one Or I could be productive and do one of a dozen things I have put off Joshua Kenz Samantha Cohoe Sean Robertson Jason Van Boom Tim Cantu Tom Sundaram Max Summe Aaron Dunkel John Kunz Katie Duda I used to be in the top I am Megan Baird Clayton Brockman Joe Zepeda Emily Norppa Liam Collins John Herreid Claire Keeler Erik Bootsma Aaron Gigliotti Kevin Gallagher Dominique Martin Bekah Sims Adrw Lng Now that finished watching a movie with the wife and eating I can finally do lecture Until I check mean TNET just for good the graph There are approximately words in the thread of Averaging letters per This is becoming a A smorgasbord of A veritable cornucopia of sentences vying for If you ad up the totals from those not on the top we still equal PB give a And so we jockey hurtling towards the the past receding behind us like clouds of becoming ever harder to ever more arduous to The wind in the for The sky was yellow and the sun was Strangers strangers just to shake their playing in the heart of gold heart of gold readability Flesch Fog school year sentence characters average length characters syllables average length words short sentences most long sentences least average length sentences questions passive sentences longest sent wds at sent shortest sent wds at sent word verb to be auxiliary types as of conjunctions pronouns prepositions nominalizations sentence pronoun interrogative pronoun article subordinating conjunction conjunction preposition You need to be more copacetic Edward Too much analysis will drive you I always right but never been Seldom turns out the way it does in a Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it Maybe I need to lay off the that all been meaning to talk to you about your problem I mean love of John Kunz wrote the longest comment weighing in at In it he solved all of as has happened frequently since Liam if I told you my method of compiling these have to kill  Wait Joshua Kenz have the longest  Uh I feel the overwhelming need to interject despite my undergraduate degree having a different because my internet was down for over an I feel like beating some God would not be personal in inasmuch as Thomas applies to God the name because the Divine is engaged in real relations which is the proper signification of the term to Common At being a final cause not get into the issue of whether or not God is a first efficient and accepting the notion that thought thinking itself precludes consideration of its causality on others as something essentially deity is mixed relations being itself in no way affected by the relatedness of To extrapolate a human beings are capable of engaging in real personal relationship with God only through the humanity hypostatically united to the Divine in the person of Now just go back to pretending to work on my dissertation and hope this starts PB on another tangent about wrong not Hey enough with the humility order of the top ten from longest to shortest John Daniel Joshua John John Peregrine Joshua Pater John Joshua Like I already warned you all a few here I but just for today Some Augustinian soul music for the Feast of I think your argument but lack In I think you confuse the argument for what in God corresponds to the name person with the argument for whether God is In question Aquinas splits those two article three shows that the name person applies to God using roughly the argument laid out Article shows that person signifies relation in I see anything in that Aristotle assent I see plenty in I had meant to cite that Aristotle assent Like the last line of the corpus and not just that signifies relation in but that properly signifies relation that and real relations at that But since almost concede that I might be talking out of the wrong orifice Would ad be what Aristotle signifies in Meta can be applied to God in the sense of signifying I feel stretching Edward Langley can you use your computer voodoo to give us some stats on the authors cited by St Thomas in the Summa and more a ranking somewhere of the citations in the IIa but I been able to find one of the whole or of the complete Has this thread really been sleeping for two I can try to think of another innocuous this is the kind of wild speculation Perebonburg has been warning us Did Aristotle believe in a personal Flying waaaay too high the only parts about the pagans I remember from City of God is the on Of they skip those parts at but hilarious And to reply to what Joshua Kenz wrote trust having a day job does preclude breaking the top provided willing to blow off your lot of confusion about the Reading Acts and St exorcism and the need for interpretation as well as remembering one oracle in Herodotus that confessed it was deliberately deceiving and other things convinced me they were frauds or Plutarch was a pagan priert who noted the oracles stopped sometime after anyways i was always interested in By Themistacles clever interrpretation he saved Greece at Salamis a lot like Odysses in bk interpreting the sign to his own ends I suppose there are options with they are insane they are deceiving for their own ends they communicate with the as to the they are all called devils in the Bible and both Augustine and Chrystotum are good authorities and IMO most the ancient wise thought them devils or frauds But that is a looong Its a combo of the Probably depends on the there a fairly Christological prophesy given by the sibyl in I was reading an article some years back that claimed that the cave of the sibyl had toxic volcanic fumes in so why the prophesies came out of oxygen deprivation or some such But the modern world rejects option wholesale the oracle was clearly possessed herself Delphi and Pythia are those the I I think are tap water comes from it was Pythia I was reading that is in if not whereas Delphi is in JAson when you need sure know The Sybil does complicate And God can make devils speak the truth the devils have They know Pater My comments on personhood in Aristotle were not endorsed by my and do not necessarily reflect his He home at the time I would not have been on the disclaimers I consulted with him when he got and he agreed that to refer to God as is well outside what we have of his He did that he object too much to someone using definition of to refer to I suppose I partly HOWEVER this is clearly gnostic and inspired by Christian Book Creation of the earth and First sin and More you mean The reason I would say god personal and not say that about views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously personal SED CONTRA And I quite sympathize with Matthew crusade there is against the Aristothomas taught at if for no other reason than that it is quite embarrassing to go off to grad school and mistake a view of for a view of get called on then spend the rest of class rooting around in the text before you realize your but they only see what God They are also I Iove test which discovered only oracles but they only knew the present in that interesting to inquire into the examples of They require layers of interpretation beginning with the priests interpreting the ravings of a possessed I could make modern comparison but may offend pious suffice that they are wrapped in And so often couldnt be I take back anything I interpretation of the snake eating the birds is too Its real significance is nearly opposite imo that i take as the own sort of the catch when reading one has to distinguish between what the author is what commentators are and what is It is the movement between those three that seems to cause a lot of if not explicitly for Aristotle does not state Thomas says you can know it God is personal i thought you conceded that no one spoke generally i skip the It removes a whole layer of confusion they be time but a lot of classes and a lot of people use intermediate and unless it is specifically there can be a lot of Someone for cited and for the I remember what test i was really screwed up by the intermediates for a I now adhere to the mega biblion kakon biblion If its more than spend the time reading primary texts or posting on who is I do not recognize him as an authority I must submit I He wrote a of and I think one of the things that TAC does excepting the do they still read Lenin on That was an absolute waste or did they when you were there in sound familiar or I think it was talk about a straw having flashbacks of I think Sophomore philosophy going to say still waiting for a refutation of anything I said or Or any of the evidence I asked to at least prevent more assumptions about what I I think there is interesting evidence in Ethics and elsewhere quote from one of his as to what Aristotle thought about God that tends towards what TACers want to And it is as Pater Edmund that many who say God a personal then proceed to make tiresome But the point itself tiresome at rather And feeding the Thomistotle is a dangerous and ignorant thing to and it can be philosophically and theologically and most graduates are relatively clueless about why this is In the the other side usually goes too far Jaffa trying to separate Ethics from for in and a fine book for TAC grads to I usually oppose that side in terms of scholarship insofar as Aristotle seems more open and less contradictory to the Faith than they let But Ron liked that book and had Jaffa come to TAC for a Most TACers need to think more carefully about what Aristotle did and I find most grads do not even think about this TAC grads will tend to think that Aristotle knew God as personal and proved natural law he talks about in the forget the special and good morning and welcome to the TNET in sent messengers to all famous ancient oracles to inquire on a certain day at a set what is Croesus secretly cooking right it was an impotable bastardization of turtle stew btw and stop being so hubris of TAC I only recanted of my vociferous Very partial In they will say laughable things to serious scholars of They may be onto something but they would be destroyed by most serious scholars on the issue without being far more knowledgeable and At what point do you determine More than the cursory glance at At what point is one capable of speaking age imo sorry that you took offense to my I mean a is what I do sort of I have no intrinsic respect for I really didnt get the whole pantiestiedinknots contest above well actually i do suspect the underlying contraversy but that too really is much ado about nothing i guess The truth is more important than having this or that philosopher in I love aristotle bc he has so well thought out things from every Aquinas is so clear straight From both one can learn much but their methods are And i have so often been wrong about He is a clever chap In Matthew I think would helpful on many levels if TAC on the paid attention to what we actually and what we I realize that is rather vague and but let me comment numbers padding If I may be so I think the TAC of centers more about the way things This is why Berquist denied that the school was a great books We do not attempt to master the ideas of the great but we try to learn about Most of us only learn how to learn about But this is The TAC school of thought is largely indifferent to whether Aristotle or Aquinas said something because both are principle masters of that the school They both help us to learn about I am not saying that this is better or I am deliberately making no value But this does seem to me to be an accurate description of what goes enture Why you just read missing on Catholic Doctrine Without Any Admixture of That would solve the whole John One of the problems is that what is at stake in this issue is the role of reason in human life it is easy for those with Faith to baptize Aristotle and call the whole thing Faith and reason BOOM it all just works no Of I am preeminently FOR the copious reading of Aristotle and which I think is the best part of intellectually I might remind is made manifest in the status I think if we really pay attention to what we do not have a great amount of scholarly We know in of current But we are ready to think deeply about things going to take more than in a row to move up In the I think for most people outside of a baptized Aristotle is fairly I I I am just getting Matthew but if some one objects to than they are just close I like seeing what other people The problem with not having any awareness of scholarship is that scholarship does overlap with arguments about what is so not being aware of it often means not being aware of plausible and points of And this is the problem of many tutors as So I tend not to multiply posts ad Morning all Matthew I think you are but I think that belongs more to the province of higher Not but Ideally a liberal education would begin at a younger A summer session primer on Thomism in general different for those going to grad school would be Maybe this makes me a bad but I had no idea there were different types of Thomist when I started my Or why they thought what they And everyone of course presupposes that I fit a mould I know I fit Just a minor Pater I think your point waaaaay above about god obviously being a personal God is a good but it something Aristotle explicitly And I think you conflate what is to the wise with what is to what is evident using own principles and what Aristotle himself recognized are not the The De Anima may not be contrary to a Christian idea of the it may in fact support that notion but De Anima itself does not recognize or discuss or in any way suggest that Aristotle had any explicit understanding of It would be like if someone were able I trisect the angle using only for the sake of let us say that this construction was and and even elegantly there is no evidence that Euclid had any knowledge of even though he knew all the ON my part i dont know whether aquinas baptized aristotle or It is an important question and i waver back and I at least have to reread all of both What is of note is that aristotle is not at all straight forward at least in those works i recently He forces the rereader to engage in dialogue or I at least can see where the Straussians are coming from but i withhold judgement on these controversies for not having read enough and merely maintain that one can do no better than to learn at the feet of aristotle and aquinas but the last is preeminant for he was angelic and enlightened by Joel have no idea how so many people know so much about what I actually think about Of by an But the questions surrounding Locke and Aristotle are similar are but are they intrinsically So to play my role in this and since you have provoked let me be John Locke speaks much more clearly about what all men call a personal God than Aristotle and the same holds for Locke and natural law Aristotle only speaks about in the as a kind of rhetorical This may be easier for me on account of the fact that pretty ignorant about all of this compared to many of but I think ever had too much distinguishing Aristotle and I think there is a real push amongst certain ideologically motivated academics they to try to separate their As if Thomas had to distort Aristotle to make him fit into a Christian At the very I think there is solid evidence to the and the position that Aristotle and Thomas are largely in agreement at the a respectable one if it is not currently in  I agree with Joel HF to be on the fact that many separate Thomas and Aristotle far too The usual historicism of the academy which Daniel Lendman is right to say that TAC counters makes it so many of these people never claim ANY thinker can overlap with ANY other because they lived at different times and places and this is In many seem to think that they all must contradict each other because they lived in different times and Look how we all leery of the idea that Aristotle had any idea of as STA used the at whether for God or for I still think that the definition can be applied to his idea of God as expressed in the later books of the Metaphysics aristotle also mentions natural law in book v of but that is In the rhetoric it is merely a tool to win an argument to be once the one praising TAC above all for reading tons of Thomas and IN THAT VERY PRAISE IS WHAT BROUGHT THE NEVER ENDING EXISTENCE INTO TIME AND SPACE IN THE STATUS Of it already existed but it is in time by means of Aquistotle correct wanted to say Squid sounds like a goat I hear the new trophy for dorm Taking Thomas as a legitimate if not the best Completely However you must be able to give more than an a priori assertion that such is the John the question is whether what we have of Aristotle is opposed to natural law or not this is similar to the personal God Book V of the Ethics is notably But my point is that a TAC grad simply assuming Aristotle is a natural law guy is sloppy There are no more dorm Caleb say that Aristotle himself had this concept of a person as an individual substance of a rational just that the concept fits reasonably well onto what he did if Pater Edmund gets to cite this Copleston person as an then I get to cite Caleb as I take Caleb as an I only cited Copleston to say even tiresome academcs make the same argument as Big not because I consider him an Oh A further step is that you should take me as an authority on even his unpublished remarks at especially his unpublished remarks at So as I say above I am NOT for much of modern separation of Thomas and on the other the easy way in which TAC grads speak and bandy about and the and yaddayaddayadda gets a little to easy and sloppy and especially when combined with the staggering amount of ignorance we have when we are very ignorant of opposing interpretations and we are relatively weak when it comes to understanding the arguments of the we read in the Which is Daniel not sure if the conflation of Thomas and Aristotle is harmful or not to most I think it may as it allows people to simply think there is no tension ever between faith and reason and all is grand in the pursuit of the But as I say in the status the fact we read lots of both is a good thing a great thing the best intellectually about TAC IMO I think that means I am not a tiresome Everyone is tiresome to Pater Edmund this morning Speaking of I met someone who had read his dissertation who know that the tradition did include interpretations that held the soul to be It was a bit the problem with a lot of modern analytic Aristotelian not Aquinas represents faith and Aristotle but Aquinas has faith and revelation and Aristotle does I could be wrong about its It will be interesting to see the heritage of TAC play out over the next few But you reason I would say god personal and not say that about views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously What do you Daniel I worry they will snap to extremes very soon when the bottom falls i matthew regarding natural I dont know what he means in the And in the rhetoric he is tongue in naughty even i believe the rhetoric is where the straussians get their machiavellian interpretation of I discern an outline for parts of the Prince It would be nice to see the heritage of TAC publish some really good scholarship in the next few Weapons grade Thomism and all Take the fight to the But Pater if you told most people that Aristotle or thought there was a personal that would be highly To be at all you would have to highly qualify One simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a or or having some kind of personal relation to human just publish this Pater was I unclear or do you just Not sure if I should of defend myself We are and we have reviewed our and we deem it still not clear what Pater Edmund means by explain what you mean by humans being obviously But shall mean Updating Vitae I just mean what Boethius the comment I was responding I took it that Caleb Cohoe agreed with Now he needs to start posting Resistance is the one Pater Edmund quoted I think humans being persons is obvious to Aristotle for the same namely he have the cite Well John I think a case can be made contra Straussians re Aristotle not being contradictory to the but it is not as easy as a lot of TACers and others Caleb cannot deny The Thread any It draws the Thread is what gives a Scholar his an energy field created by all living It surrounds us and penetrates it binds the galaxy And it certainly has a light side and a dark And devotion to it also requires celibacy  there are a lot of similarities between the thread and the I know if it does draw you should have seen the look he gave me when I confessed to spending an hour on it yesterday reply in a my daughter needs orange juice Matthew Peterson are you using person the same All Pater I take is individual rational REGARDING They are My mentor and good friend has spent a year trying to refute one of their best on his last piece on the All i know of it is he is working on a seven fold distinction of whereat my mind explodes a bit and i realize my vocation is not to be a BTW that is the part he has been stuck i am pretty sure i cant help he has spent years meditating on the Just realized I could make this thread public and we could link to it on give it its own Twitter Or Doubtless the The Neverending Thread already what will be since it simply so Pater you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person likewise complain that Aristotle think of humans as I think that is because our first concept of a person a and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to Daniel objectionable claim that God had Is this Thread an individual rational Hope that was I have more babies climbing on me than you guys I think pluralistic rational and irrational substance it does think on its own thinking a I believe that is heretical of doesnt it fall under the anathema of being Matthew it is The Threadness is not but rather exists most properly as the matterless form which imbues all other threads with Also Matthew perhaps make it public only to friends of friends for or I know a few people who would like to be a part of the In honor of whose feast day this chiming in to who claims to have read every comment in this And also to did Aquinas ever give the sense that he interpreted Aristotle to judge that God is a enture When I woke up this I noticed there was light outside my every creature may be compared to as the air is to the sun which enlightens For as the sun possesses light by its and as the air is enlightened by sharing the so God alone is Being in virtue of His own since His Essence is His whereas every creature has being by so that its essence is not its as Augustine says ad the ruling power of God were withdrawn from His their nature would at once and all nature would In the same work ad he the air becomes light by the presence of the so is man enlightened by the presence of and in His absence returns at once to preservation of things by God is a continuation of that action whereby He gives which action is without either motion or so also the preservation of light in the air is by the continual influence of the enture I think Aristotle viewed God as a and I think he also thought ensoulment took place after the formal cause of man informing matter after whereas the soul of a plant is induced from the potency of But a little unfair to because he cannot that is one of the reasons God can be known yada admixture blah blah from As Augustine so rightly points out God underlies and permeates the whole of therefore he can be seen through It is but Aristotle seems to say that the and then animal of the soul happen first in But it has been a long time one of the younger folks could check me on that enture Admixture of explains the Force gives a cliffnotes explanation of what the Force This clip belongs to Lucasfilms and George Bonbonventura candy to come MichaeL Myers free liked my Stupid gnosis on the fritz again It is now the place for this is your left your gonna die I figure if we all start with clear first the likelihood of our straying from Father Aristotle Left and right can be known by natural reason with no admixture of error by all the irrational attribute of the substance of this thread has I kinda wondered what mb was about up I am Scott posted and I responded in Daniel Lendman that video takes me back to SP in Adrw little shack and reminds me of excellent scotch and i still confuse left and So  Remarkable that fine cigars and scotch is associated with that I doubt the creators ever had that in Okay I got my left and my I know from natural reason and the chirality patriarchy play where are you Apropos of I am sad and dispirited just now because Caleb is replacing our Colorado license plates with Missouri as far as I Missouri is a fine They say the liitle part that kind of hangs down into if were ceded to Arkansas would raise the average IQ of both Which part are going enture touchy this underlies and permeates the whole of is NOT what Obi is telling They are as different as left and beats I have no sound here at enture I hope you prayed over your spiritual reading of Metaphysics this to cleanse your soul from enture The in Louis for the hot and and there beer is ok but not as good as in and of course no But actually I quite like it in your honor I found this appropriately significant Hello Kitty Is Not A Cat Because Nothing Makes Sense Anymore You might want to sit down for this Sanrio has revealed Hello Kitty the More enture Who is Do I even look like a That is so mean of you to trash Hello Only a TAC alum would even THINK of doing I am the wind shall were decent godless Their only monument the asphalt and a thousand lost golf you Pater if you told most people that Aristotle or thought there was a personal that would be highly To be at all you would have to highly qualify I actually say I say Aristotle never used the word but he thought of God as a thinking which is what person Then you simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a or or having some kind of personal relation to human How is that  Squid turtle enture I once knew a Scot who golfed into a wind so His ball flew twenty yards but eighty in I totally agree with you that you are an authority on unpublished you so Pater you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person likewise complain that Aristotle think of humans as I think that is because our first concept of a person a and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to I but then one has the same problem with things that Aristotle actually says about Like thought for our first concept of which comes from our own Off to I dont understand the You are Pater has been clear as to what he But you keep insisting on a meaning of personal that pater is not Good luck getting an answer you missed your window a relationship with other rational Characteristic of an individual substance having reason embarrassing photographs I insist on what most people think of when they hear if you told most people Aristotle believed in or argued to a personal God you would obviously be misleading them based on how they would normally and naturally interpret the Most when they hear the word think of an individual human being with reason and I One is delineating an individual as opposed to a and an individual of a particular kind one with and When one says one generally means a God that relates directly to human And that is nowhere in But even if we wanted to qualify the phrase to mean is a most people hearing the phrase would think this renders him an individual with reason and What this means in even for Thomas is highly of But even more what Aristotle says thought thinking thought that stands to the rest of the universe as first cause is God as person in the most nub of a basic insofar as he is in some way an individual and in some way has IS The fact that Truth itself can be considered a person is marvelous and not apparent from what Aristotle especially when thought thinking thought is what causes all else to What one means by person here is simply far beyond what comes to mind it would be misleading for most without explaining in I AM WHO AM is a of in some beyond all human notion of personhood and indeed our understanding of person could be said to derive from beyondpersonhood But in any to say Aristotle holds to a personal God is simply misleading given what most people will interpret that to What does person add to i matthew but do you disagree with limited Not most contemporaries first I do not see any real disagreement here perhaps on the matter of if Aristotle thinks God is an efficient cause he must think that God has appetite in some sense and therefore I disagree that thought thinking thought and serving as eternal prime mover negates for Aristotle or not what So much to and much is at One needs to see the enormous problem of how God could at all relate to human persons for I think something like JA Escalante says is likely true he saw intermediary beings something like or where his contemporaries got the idea of the gods but he was likely very unsure about Greig I apologize for the but with your last line in do you suppose the with the Theophany in contextualizes the meaning of God as at least in the distinctly Christian add the missing premises to my abbreviated argument a knower can only move if it has an appetite will is the only writing my dissertation not on Facebook COME John had no concept of the is another one of those claims I I will admit this thread is giving it a run for its money But hardly done with Chapter Edward all this thought so therefore he must have thought talk makes me uneasy unless accompanied by intense and fair argumentation and meticulous examination and That statement is fine for the Book of of but it would and should never get you published anywhere ever without very rigorous argument from But you know The entire problem is that by assuming Thomistotle one lays the shoddy groundwork for upending much else later on down the and risks misunderstanding what Aristotle does and and therefore risks missing the truth of In this what would appetite even mean for what Aristotle says about God in the admittedly little we have of his What would will what it would not what most people think about when they think about God with a will not unreflective about these had claims like these pushed at me for two years enture I AM WHO AM is what God said to Good section on this in Lumen A marriage of Hebrew and Hellenic of BUT DOES the existence of refute the first two definitions of personal i gave setting aside for the time That is matter for Jon Andrew Might it be a little too easy for Christians to talk about God as person and foist that into places where it because they believe God came to earth as a human Yes What I like about Thomistotle is that it evades the real problems Aristotle and the tensions and even contradictions he faced within his own and the overflowing mystery and shock and beauty and solving of seemingly insurmountable problems the Incarnation It tends towards a shallow would will what it would not what most people think about when they think about God with a will I think position would be what most people think about a with a not even sure position on our own will matches what people think about that talking about the same group of people I would like an answer to what the will of the unmoved mover would be like Edward probably agree with you and Pater Edmund and Caleb Cohoe in opposing those people may we all do so and work together doing so throughout long and successful careers but we will not succeed unless we are very careful and cautious and more rigorous than the other My point that I think the question of will in God comes down to the dispute over whether or not God is an efficient The talk in the De Anima about appetite is there for the sake of showing how knowledge sense or produces motion in It seems to me like something like that would have to transfer to if he produces motion as an efficient enture Would not the will of the unmoved mover be more like a final Or would it really be like an efficient as when He creates a human that soul is the formal cause of the person but in relation to the human God is an efficient So God wills that each of us and He does this as an efficient But say more about what Aristotle might think the of the unmoved mover is or would be got more than unmoved Greig in one sense true about the human but I specifically mention the Theophany where the three persons are made It seems that we have three distinct agents at one of which is particularly manifest as a while his work as a human brings forth the other two agents and Holy This is a bit of a loose but I wonder if whether or how that might change the context of understanding God as I but I worked my way through this long And I agree on the Aristotle leaves enough open questions which Thomas fills and I think one can argue that there is an evenual but one which writing make clear in itself without a good will is not equal to efficient cause enture Greig I have to run for Back But appetite mediates a knowing power and efficient causality based on that knowing if God acts according to his he must have an appetite an inclination to what he knows to be enture I thought unmoved mover was subsistent like a rock from which a animal might jump off the rock does not push the it just gives the animal a solid place from which to Were it not for that unmoved the leg and joint could not the leg of the animal would flail in God is unmoved mover with respect to that is difficult but for the rest we seem all to All i am dispute where there is real dispute and will that This was to mp way up Sorry yes Will is not the same as efficient despite what Ed says enture But everything in God is so He must be all causes in all Bonbon See Translation enture I tink Aristotle would say anything about the will of the unmoved because of the admixture of error enture my head hurts enture Aristotle would say that the final cause of Nature is the will of the umoved the final cause of nature is enture I thnk Goethe said is was hence his numerous and the character of But is thinking on manifestation of a Good is enture But sticking The final cause of Nature is what God  a movement of God to God as a desired or chosen end for its own did I stub my is what God is what God makes sporting events complicated enture the final cause of Nature is You stubbed your toe because you were a stubborn enture God loves the perfection of so much He gave His only begotten  the will of god contained in the imposition of the Platonic solids gnostically around the world or even if I grant that First Cause have I have to admit it for the secondary He says they move their spheres out of love for the But if they were pure floating I see how they could i thought He sent the Son to perfect the whole supernatural love and forgiveness liked u Progress on in the first sense we hope it dont lead to the love that can conquer even enture plus we are thinking of God as First But all this by inference and Let Aristotle answer his own but beware talking Aristotle enture The in the tempted The gravity of death to the serpent has he just want to enture how grave the how deep the That took the blood of Christ to rescue back to free but the garden was a or an with a or enture I think there really may have deen a and man was infused with different kinds of good knowledge from the fruit God prepared on the trees of which man was allowed to There was a Euclid And man had dominion over the until the then after the while man still had some dominion over the God used animals and nature as elementary lessons to help lead man back to the right hence the talking and the Book of Proverbs exhortation to consider the animals which are and Our use of animals as part of Aristotle was also doing the same thing but on the admixture of error This may have been posted I have no the last time I looked at this it was at about thousand now over an interesting Ted Thought many interested in this thread might like On being wrong Most of us will do anything to avoid being But what if wrong about More enture Odds been Can a rational being not have a I cannot prove but it seem What is an intellect without a Can it do enture But I may be frequently Has there been a consideration of Jewish or a discussion that the word Israel has been defined as with intellect without a can it do enture the intellect and The first is the other one is enture I think we need to bring some Franciscans into the a child has an but the will is often very enture So too with many but an intellect without a be it do what do you say John Ruplinger position is that every intellectual being necessarily has a In a matter of enture I think every intellect is just stuck with a will and It is what it A but John was posing a enture John is a I think Peregrine Bonaventure can see John comments for some reason  enture I Do you have a spyglass I can look John Ruplinger asked several comments a rational being not have a I cannot prove It doesnt seem What is an intellect without a Can it do enture The human soul has three parts in will and It is a which proves that God is a These parts in unity seek truth goodness and beauty This is why Augustine uses enthymemes and metaphor in the same i sent you a friend request Ed intrigues but the unity of the transcendentals in except maybe in a nascent and therefore be used to determine what Aristotle is probably be right to admit it from secondary the secondary causes move the spheres according to love of the It clear to me that that love is in Aristotle does aristotle not address the not that I know enture But then again it has been a few fortnights since studied me some Aristoilet enture love of is Woe the whom the Godhead that metaphor or So can the love from the secondary movers be show to have been reciprocated by the first or enture Day after shining turn afer The loves Deus in many people love but symbiotic reciprocity needs more I know if it can be demonstrated along those But it still seems to me that God cannot be an efficient cause unless he desires what he causes as something enture Did Aristotle say anthing about the rings of Among the I think the Earth is the only heavenly body who loves God in because she dutiful remains in the center of But you say all the Planets love by allowing other things to revolve around by allowing rings to be their mass and motion exerting a enture what he causes as something Please say planets are is having edward langley many demonstrations of symbiotic were there drugs in my coffee this I thought I had it black but reading this is making me enture Planets may be but they have but they have is a drug enture Planets have form without plants totally inanimate They have a vegetative They can move toward or away something beneficial or Is this enture If Planets have no who keeps them on in This must be the parasites in the taco I ate last night are the efficient cause of my but that an idea of the good really any idea at So maybe you mean efficient enture If Planets have no who do they move in symphonic They BonBon they just perpetual falling into the curved spacetime efficient cause with knowledge enture so the perpetual falling into curved spacetime is the cause of the harmonic I see no harmony just in a straight line a an atheistic cosmology Everyone knows that angels carry the planets along no the angels are just shoving them down with a matterless form ephemeral phlogiston plunger enture Free the Tom Petty I still am fond of the angel Call me nostalgic or I dont I just dont drink Too many difficlties and some pretty weighty Newton was just an without the benefit of any his Koolaid tastes We rock the general relativity fruit punch enture I once knew a his name was He had a rational But his grapevine said to the little now go on a now go on a Said the little ant to the grapevine what lovely long legs you My legs are my little and better my God to better my God to For I walk to Church on and afterwards to Where my fruit it and tasty and sweet to tasty and sweet to enture For my firstfruits go to the And in to the And with that His attend the Glorious is it clear that the vegetative soul is individual as Thomas writes that of is part of in which case the immortal soul for the vegetative quite possibly the animal no clear thoughts it clear to me that the soul of a plant exists beyond the species as a principle of that sort of enture The soul of a plant is induced fom the potency of its what I was told to I thought soul was the substantial form of the plant whereas the matter is what individuates  So is it clear that Aristotle thinks that plants have individual and can I tell my right from I think I they very so there a very strong unity in and in TAC grads I Opposition to Peregrine Bonaventure is the principle of unity in TAC grads Final  this seems to be petering out we need someone to come in and say something Peterson tell me again how the American founding fathers had a good notion of the common good and talk about NFP  That would be so What Would Aaron Dunkel As far as I can Paul and the Fathers would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids conception is inherently only venially NFP is Augustine and its his QED stirring I To what in writings to you Daniel is probably right though in It is permitted Augustine seems a bit stronger agin  something discussion killer thread I think all of you are either because you use NFP inappropriately or for other sinful Oh is like the part on the roller coaster just Clickclickclickclickclick I believe hearing But why should I be Just to add to the Mobile Uploads Angel Vivaldi enture A soul of a plant comes from its material not from The matter is what individuates one plant from The soul of man comes from outside of Can plants use raining and enture The would violate And just get this out the Fathers had ALL KINDS of whack ideas about sex and Good thing are only required to revere them as examples of heroic enture The Peregrine informs TAC alum by inverse  concerned that I spelled whack the consensus patrium is enture Woe to women who embrace chauvanistic entitlement perhaps I missed the Nope completely serious enture CES I REALLY like what the Fathers said on Great stuff enture Freud and sitting in a and are titles given to people because they are theological merely indicates that they were exemplary in some way Thomas for standing up for the rights before the onslaught of the enture Little Doctor of the I missed the part wherein they were all against if you are required to take every teaching of Augustine on sex and women as then you are seriously out of but a lot of them massively contradict more recent we are required to take the points on which all the Fathers agree as I think I need an enture My mom told me never to discuss sex with Then run along when deciding an argument based on the Fathers trump nearly everyone else the Magisterium and this NFP discussion runs out of we could always discuss when discussing as with we are vastly superior to Protestantism so not ruin that by becoming puritanical remnantists re the It was only a matter of time with this thread enture upon learning from her Shrink that her son may have had a certain as long as he loved his enture I just said not about not I dont see that in what i have I just think our heads are so in the gutter we cant see what he is But I think Daniel Lendman is our new resident troll enture And let us go you and to that really steamy section of The She turns and looks a moment in the Hardly aware of her departed Her brain allows one thought to now and glad When lovely woman stoops to folly and Paces about her room She smoothes her hair with automatic And puts a record on the I see you trying to pawn off homework as thread enture Smantha Cohen is the new did you catch the Honestly we are worse than pagans in At least many of them respected early Christians and some were even in Today we cant even fathom what they Peregrine still spell Michael enture Catch the catch the Catch the catch the was that Wasteland quote directed at enture Rush Tom Sawyer In WIDESCREEN The opening to a concert Rush enture She stoops to I think Augustine was authoratative but he is helpful and Chrysostum is more Much but Liguori is One of defining in fact his haeccitas I is his remarkable ability to evade  at lunch when I was I have so much to share on this discussion of sex and NFP For onus is on the man Gen I think casting aspersions on my but aspereges me Hi I realize you were on this have you and Caleb The fathers are only infallible when unanimous and when interpreting I Am I off Not I thought that unanimity was the only enture Grandparents for Responsible Use of I think Ed is it seems that unanimity is probably with the voice of the Church would be essential for infallibility regarding Faith and it is the standard by which it is judged that they speak with the voice of the i suspect Edward is They merit respect and an open mind always I think you would probably say the same thing if there was unanimous consent amongst the cult of the Although VI possibly shows me to be Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy profitably made by the Council of with the intention of constraining rash has been wrongly interpreted by we renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as that in matters of faith and belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true which Holy mother Church held and since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy In it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to or indeed against the unanimous consent of the None are so close minded as those who profess but one namely to have an open enture the folly of liberally educated They believe earned the right to talk about any subject under the But VI is only speaking about Scripture but the only source found so far that mentions the consensus patrium enture Just Pretending to be an entitled Victorian man of chauvanistic nothing in I had time to look carefully doing how about I would think it would be very hard to establish much that was actually unanimous among the church Another interesting question is the status of the text where Paul indicates that he speaking My point was that who has conveniently could find a lot of quotes from the Fathers that say messed up things about women and sex and and still not have established much of anything And by I guess I mean and also personally upsetting to I will note that up through the there was a serious position held by many theologians that condemned Castii Conubii es not definitively resolve as neither it does castration of These theologians argued because of a probable opinion that it was permitted existed a confessor could not impose his view that it was not permitted on a penitent acting in good but that in fact NFP was not justifiable and one ought not encourage I point this out because I think rather than taking objections there is an assumption of a magisterial rubber stamp approving while there is something closer to that with the last few the awareness of even recent and respected opposition should give pause and at least urge the answering of rather than mere One of my top moments of frustration in theology at TAC was when we hit Augustine on make up and dyed While I found and find view more almost every single student shrieked and rejected it out of hand in the exact manner the modern world does with our condemnation of Exactly the So of course I defended while disagreeing with willingness to just as I condemn things in the world and the world is so blind it fathom the maybe I too have maybe a value of ancient authors is that they stand outside of our context and provide a intellectually and moral to our But when that actually by a just shrieking and out of hand Of course Augustine is Church Doctor of the has auctoritas dripping off may not be conclusive by but authority he has in I am really not on a crusade If you want I can dig up some quotes I read grad school that were troubling to But do you guys really need me to do Can we not agree that a lot of the despite being awesome and important and heroic examples of were also products of their times who had some unfortunate views of women and Thank this is not Chrysostom was likely martyred bc the empress took offense at his preaching on these When examined these teachings have the support of reason and We give them no fair  enture I think there was a group of early desert gals who were comparable to the National Organization of Nothing i havent read that But they exude sound reason and derive from principles we in blindness non also half And Roman Catholics really need to pretend Scholasticism vastly improved on the ancient writers in many and only a post Vatican II thing to get all gooey over the Fathers they are which you acknowledged I think it sucks that one of my theological heroes to see what use woman can be to if one excludes the function of bearing Are we not also products of our with some also very unfortunate I refuse to write off any position of the Fathers under such a blanket I need to know what the position is and the arguments for before I dare judge for it is just as possible that I am the one to be judged While I do agree some views that end up as wrong are also as you too many write off anything they like under that same forget that and only reject after a fair t bad as a chronicle of patristic weirdness on the question of gender and The Concept of The Aristotelian This pioneering study by Sister Prudence Allen traces the concept of woman in More not saying they should be rejected because they are we should avoid what Lewis calls chronological but when you have pagan writers sometimes sounding much saner about women than some ancient Christian you know its not just a question of anachronism This is but too many say that and then proceed to use it to ignore anything am not accusing Cohoe of Merely making a And because we through such mistake the sense or be wrong about it being we should err on the side of a reverential As Thomas always not so corrected  rs are very often a mess argumentatively speaking less gle out I said ancient Christian Well that is systematic thinking was left to like trying to sum up their Chrysostom is a great commenting on a little and moving from drunkness not wine is a to advice about sanctifying you hand by hitting and then back to wine and then to pastoral and Clement of cough enture My head would become unscrewed if I did not have my And I trust I am of some small use to I plead not guilty to the charge of chronological snobbery that apparently no one has made against I am merely excusing the Fathers for some of the terrible things they thought about women by noting that those were easier mistakes to make in those days than lying to Joshua Samantha Note that this is an excuse that none of you have ot sure they were much easier to make I know JA my only friend enture The Fathers may have had no use for women in one they needed Holy Mother the Church in a massive portion of Her infallible dogmatic theology idk about And not all of Chrysostum is He was a preacher first What was the purpose and WRT NFP If you can find them Orville Rhythm In Marriage And Christian McFadden has an article in the Thomist covering the debate and its Unfortunately I have all of the Thomist issues from caeci caecos sicut All saying I hope Big Angry come back here with some quotes from the Fathers and think he has proved that use of NFP is ALL SAYING Not that I have a dog in Unless we of what horror of horrors did they Samantha as one who has read But to be fair maybe something from Augustine or Will this thread hit Oh and in the Holy Office issued a warning about NFP and promoting it the rhythm method that it coudl lead to denial of the marital Obviously any moral version must hold that both parties because the reasons for NFP would not negate the marriage Prümmer speaks very cautiously of He first says a couple who is overly in dire medical should place their hope in If they reckon it live in complete He then the note from the Sacred Penitentiary in mention by the namely that a couple strongly tempted to may be left in good faith wrt the rhythm and presents it as a possibility rather Though in the edition I have the appendix adds to that section with the teaching of Pius XI and XII original edition was before There are some very serious objections to And it is hard to morally differentiate it from actions that are I do think throughout the from the Fathers to there has always been two schools of thought about the marital You can see it in authors that condemned relations during pregnancy or menstruation and other definitive infertile a cherry picked quote from a Father does not settle the and is unlikely exactly I am just saying these divisions raise unresolved matters that should be taken seriously I already pulled out one pretty symptomatic of the overall problem I thought enture this thread will go past and this is a true purged of because I have been reading Aristotle in a prayerful AT the start of this thread i believe a fair statement regarding its sinfulness was Indeed culpability may be nil for many bc of so much enture Catholic Women rise up against the Desert enture Or is it To be until just now half of the comment over the last two hours were not visible to some of the comments make a heck of a lot more sense I am not a Catholic i just noticed I think FB was having trouble temporalizing so much cutting half of the And I so what that you are not relvancy of my point that even relatively recently NFP was not de facto but reputable authorities had issue with Just meaning you should give a fair shake to the why so I am just annoyed at commenting on a different conversation than the one the people I was conversing with were having was almost every other comment Oh you talking to me are So let me get this married couples are required to procreate as often as Like is definitely what I am saying I think NFP morally licit for grave just recognize that it is not that it so there are occasions where not having sex is Such as in Church or at probably While while walking the dog Depends on the USC I might be only angry at who quoted the Wasteland at me disrespectfully Is sex a good thing that comes from being married The nice thing about becoming an adult is I get to have dessert when I So I have dessert EVERY SINGLE DAY enture Goodness that was honestly not aimed at Sorry if it gave that on Ash Wednesday and Good I cant see ANY of I thought in that can have that even of those NB Neither can I see had him blocked since my first comment but not required Only if your wife requests the debt and if she enture The Victorian stoops to was for That is as virtuous as you and that is virtuous The TS Elliot section unmasks some of the banality of That is I suppose there is some subtext in the feminine animus against the Church I do not know why people read them outside of the context of Holy Mother Compared with the dogmatic theology of the the Church Fathers are individual Then you are free Bundy Sorry bad reference there the best thing about the Church Fathers is you can dig up pretty much any quote for any crackpot theological position  Especially matters dealing with biology not Do they justify crack or But more to the if we decided to on any for any where is the moral not really the reason for debt must be what if the rent is too damn It is in the moralist abstaining completely for a health reason was but abstaining only on days where she might be and not on days she is not is different  Does having sex on infertile days amount to an act that deliberately avoids I if a Bears game runs late on a Monday Yes That is the and what you are trying to do The question is whether it changes the object of the enture not an exact There is admixture of I think that really but the simple act of sex on any day is barriers or is not avoiding conception enture never pondered these can say that It it is the presumption of the You mean not to get so you plan not to have sex on those is NFP doing something Is it some game I am ignorant The act itself considered alone without contraception is not avoiding Something else must go along with he Such as contraceptives or like I just said enture never pondered these My wife give me a spare It that aside that intention and circumstance can make it a mortal the object of the act is not so simply defined as you are doing in the word Sometimes the word intend is not meant subjectively like when we talk about the priest intending what the Church intends with the Fornication is just sex after immoral about we say that it differs in its OBJECT not merely circumstance Yes but lets not get too far off topic What are you talking The priest does not have to intend what the Church That is heresy I want this to suddenly be about fornication why I said which all of the above assumes marriage You are ignoring the question of what the object of the act is I have no idea what you think moral intention means it is a curious the argument against NFP works by looking at the intent of sexual activity over the month as a not just each act in isolation as Max and Mike point just whereas the argument against contraception does the it argues from the nature the argument of the discrete regardless of overall intention regardless of intention for generously fruitful each act cannot ever be modified to frustrate the natural Just an observation Sigh Since numbering talk about talk NOT YOU AND ME Peregrine is actually correct about the teaching of the Catholic Church there Yeah I guess trying to make a subtle point and I have the necessary words at my disposal right NFP is only allowed for grave though the criteria of that given clearly Did your wife have the baby Joshua Kenz re priest intending what the Church intends I know seen that formulation but the word intent does not mean what it means normally when we think about Pope Peregrine PB you really are nothing but a that would be a prudential matter No baby yet otherwise I be That formulation is perahps necessary for an orthodox not for a valid not entirely prudential I exaggerated by calling it heretical there are rules informing the prudence there there are always clear cut areas and grey areas no i think it had something to do with sacraments when the priest slightly botches the of course I have no dog in this fight anyway i need to get back to doing something that resembles me A well formed conscience and the guidance of an orthodox spiritual director kind of remove the dog fighting A priest might not believe in but the sacrament is still valid as long as he intends to do wht the Church in his mind might simply be a community as even an atheist might validly while believing it all because he intends to do what the Church namely a even though he thinks that is hogwash I just like to argue there I said it Who Endorphins for everyone  But if you guys ever those articles I mention earlier are very Joshua pm me those please some of these people may not know me none in the Biblical Bonbon closing in on comments deep of Rabelaisian Wait not cool to use NFP so I can save up to buy a Water Jet tweaks the ride of the hydro jetpack we saw the then the I is a grave reason saving up for new But what about a I good for the still a jerk and wrong Joshua be interested in the articles as well go Jerkegrine Jerkegrine Wrongaventure glad I could help it So very and Nine out of ten Doctors of the Church A dogma a day keeps the Peregrine seemed to have gone VERY since I last noted this Play asking me to play It work years it going to work now Nice nice very nice Seriously though If a couple is temporarily or still the nature of the act they are doing is procreative and ence in that regard If a couple that changes the nature of the the object of the It is sodomitical in a and not Not merely the but the object changes Another example A married couple does the it is one thing An unmarried couple does the object not merely the The claim is that marriage affects what the act is Another example I am not eating but you say I am fasting merely because I do not eat continiously I choose to not eat for a day ad gloriam That is The abstention from food is common to both my between lunch and dinner and my not eating during a but they are not the same The object differs A couple is not having sex right at this but we do not call abstention A couple chooses to abstain on those days that are and not on infertile We call that periodic continence or The object very clearly differs Another example I choose to not eat on Friday for I am fasting I choose to not eat in order to lose I am The not merely the are different We abstain for a month are two for health reasons or prayer We abstain only on fertile days to avoid getting it that absurd that like the might think these are different not just I do wish we could all smoke together I just realized what the discussion I take it Have at WHAT IS PB Were I talking to I would make an appeal for just being subset of which is not really but which is also not He just least right about TAC not reading a responsible amount of Which of course not right just pretend I believe you so my husband have to come on here and challenge you to a duel or some such but why the sharp not sure responsible for him to so if founding documents teach you bound to denounce that to the local And if already attempted that work out for Because got the dull words John he is now just listing all the things he thinks right again And you better not ignore what JA just asked I thought it was more seriously I think we can get the email of the local ordinary for and I think bound in conscience to denounce TAC for public pertinacious heresy so go for sure you wait to be vindicated at Peregrine suffers from digital Joshua I have a but it is getting lost in ad silliness and critique and dinner time oh you do need to report material to the one and then if they accept fraternal it becomes None of the alums have accepted your fraternal so now countenancing formal heresy i was presuming that you had done the right thing and told TAC about its material heresy as soon as you discovered and certainly gone on about it to alums on FB for months Its become by now quite and formal and so walk the walk or quit talking the Call the see how that works out for you There is nothing underhanded about anything I am I have challenged you and repeatedly if You have engaged in and flagrant Pharisaical also continued to argue extreme claims to the point of Either that or been dishonest and sophistical in your You do not appear to have any concept of the Your Odysseus sails either straight for Charybdis or for Can no one teach you Do you already know I have not seen you once say anything like I think of or see what you mean or know I might have been wrong about Do you really believe that you know Do it would be not dogma you the one between physics and metaphysics difference there is exactly one Not two metas one but many kinds of I distinguish between pastor and carnitas they both come from a therefore they are the same magisterium magisterium MAAAAAGISTEEEEERIUUUUUUUM a braveheart as Wrongaventure draws and quarters me on the gibbet of holistic sacred theology not I am filled with pity for yes Isak I am actually laughing right mostly at Bonbon i am out of kalua slacking today on padding this I really wish you could see the diatribe John What you just said is No one has the right to be Rights only exist because duties to others are Your duty is conformity to the Therefore mere expression of your right or formed or is not a right at Concede the And you are still making unfounded universal claims about what TAC Are you saying that all TAC graduates are alike in this or are you saying merely a take this bit by Do the distinction dance with WOW strange statement from the magisterium he respect the fact that I live in a free and I am free to express my and my conscience tells me that TAC produces an arrogant alum quite ignorant of much dogmatic saying and I have to respect we resort to foul language because of poor impulse control Or seen Lebowski way too many Do you have to use so many cuss It speaks for itself I inferred it from your prior But Wrong you cheeky one example of TAC uses colorful language when the force of the point requires My legs are thank you very I like to think of my swearing as like Otherwise the food of my wisdom is sooo bland And you know what Better noisome vocalizations than noisome Your thoughts are Have you provoked the Linda Blair version of Sir Bonbon did PB ever recant his assertion of heresy a while No he did not And I think his clear lack of ability to respond to my objections speaks volumes more than his never been and good Sir INABILITY is the And look at that he wants me to respect that he is free to express his because he lives in a free contrary but he respect my use of the word to describe the piles of dung heaping on TAC a guys given an infinite number of be able to sort this all Yeah not like they teach you that at Mass in the campus chapel or It would be a waste of The flames would get tired of trying to consume A big group of alums accused you of heresy because you quoted something and endorsed it and the thing quoted in presented as heresy in the document in which it Despite the fact that you were participating in the thread at the you pretended no one had raised the question and did not even acknowledge its Go reflect on what it means to have a to Pope writing to Aristotle more i am by and the fonder I have become of like that so and he set up life size statues in Stagira to Zeus and the Man could use a a case would be a and some  You missed the Go to the you did I find it difficult to believe you could have forgotten Believing own versions of the truth is a classic trait of i think pb has a good case Pseudologia I pity Because we are seekers of the and that we may be here is what I am speaking The image is the which was repeated to you by different The quoted passage I traced the discussion and if I recall Pater citation of the formal heresy which Bautain was forced to To my it appears you have not which is what I am As to the maturity of my I leave that for others to without grace serves an admixture of accurate to Stop making brash generalizations about an entire stop refusing to admit when a good point has been stop mocking the intelligence of people on this thread kinder than stop announcing how right you are at every opportunity you stop avoiding and maybe we can have a Pater Edmund identified paging Pater Edmund of quality in my To refute His Holiness The a quality argument is not And the maturity of questioning is clear and sure CC teaches logic which is why I am baffled that PB persists in making generalizations about TAC more specifically he said you were asserting heresy by citing the quotation But close i think Pater identified calling someone a heretic is a different Megan that right there is all I want him to It amounts to a form of bigotry and I abide I imagine Pater Edmund is I have enjoyed this thread but the chief takeaway for me has been that my rejection of atheism was perhaps too franciscans are busy writing letters to the leaders of the one is all tired of hearing the are refrain pick a different more song to currently where Pater Edmund so I doubt appear any time The entire train of comments and so on is available and it makes itself fairly I think she means the generalization that we are arrogant Isak and I the not so  NO SHE DOES NOT MEAN SHE MEANS STOP CALLING AN ENTIRE ALUMNI No offense PB can say whatever he wants by way of insulting me and it will likely have some truth in But most anything good in me has come from my family or from and I will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the I think like any some some are decidedly and most are somewhere in the Excuse Not all of Yes Triangles TAC alum exactly Well met some pretty awful people from Christendom but I go around calling all of their alumni hear God help God help God help us This is  No one accused you of slandering They accused you of slandering its I realize the topic of the thread but focus is likely for the Right now been asked about your accusations against all TAC alumni and instantly pivoted to another Inspector Clouseau visits Dreyfus at the psychiatric hospital From the film Pink Panther Strikes You know very well not what we were calling you poor juice box of a someone may have accused you of slandering but not what discussing not very I I did say will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the You are correct to infer that by that I meant its you still recanted the formally heretical assertion you because we mysteriously pivoted from that topic to the arrogance lack of going to go pray for God help Let me know if any love to be had here I plan on posting some Simpsons so I suspect I am going to play a board game with my I apologize for preventing you from going to the Monty Python And The Holy Grail Not Bicker And Argue About Who The only sense in which you are pitiful is in the way that you are persisting in your I came out of TAC knowing far more about my Faith than I did when I was a And that had nothing to do with the lack of my faith formation beforehand it had everything to do with the education I received So you are simply please understand this is why you have offended when you say we are all I think of my who could not deserve that charge I am sure it is the same for When I think about a program that requires classes a day is basically a liberal arts with a little les literature but with math and science well and theology packed plus greatly bulking up the when a HS student looking for a college sees that and goes for well maybe only the ones will do and that includes those who should be confident and those who are deluded arrogants and like who are both arrogant and rightly So I can see why arrogance is not is not that it is produced by the college but rather that of course brighter people have as a danger Different types of people have different Just because being intelligent can lead to mean we TAC probably humbles as many as it puffs for just the reason that it is a heavy load for And the same will be true of any challenging program One thing that can be said about TACers is that they suffer fools at absurd if not HAHAHAHA Angela Lessard that can no longer be Why the Did you apply and not get into After the irritation with Peregrine a sense of boredom replaces Why does Cdom not teach book of Why does all math end with book thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no Except I said that over comments What amuses me greatly is how people STILL think the point of this thread is to convert The Peregrine instead of thinking of it more as a virtual If the Peregrine offends about comments and a week The Peregrine is And this is The Neverending I think I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel we are about to leave that cave Isak The Thread Why is tac not a year program covering all literature and theological Why you go to You are a former former American elected I missed the poet part and Universally I know why anyone gets offended by Sir Bonbon the a broken record of an before every goes all he says interesting Call him on and Bonbon becomes Linda It happens Edward could probably figure out the period think twice daily but have no stats to back me Then discuss something and come back all and the recursive thread spirals out No the rest of you should just learn to enjoy the TNET has become going out for Afghan does anyone want Afghan Afghanis have Afghan heavy on the gnawing there are many more lurkers than posters on They reference it and status and discuss but nary a post or Well many are few chosen calling out Marie Cantu for doing this almost at Seems like just yesterday we were at And according to whose I would be interested in discovering the identity of the person who officially determines exactly how our theology program I am disappointed with your poetry as the good news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of the bad news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of WILL IT NEVER BE    I D E C L A R E T H I S T H R E A D D E A D now was that so now the six thousandth comment is  i have begun to question genuine desire for truth beauty and it all seems like a numbers game to me toddler stage next Beauty and goodness sometimes needs silliness and discuss I hope in terrible trouble is comedy really a species of the I read in a vocations book once that you be a religious if you have a sense of because humor is a test of your This is The Thread That If this thread were an Matthew Peterson would have had a few calls from Sillycone Valley by now Joshua sorry I ignored all your arguments I was distracted and now pretty far into my so maybe Now that school is starting up again and I have a life I regretfully have to abandon following I read the first but my endurance I fully expect this thread to be alive and well when I finish my Masters So keep on keeping I fixed Now no more Let talk of procreation and procreating be at Sean you do not unfollow The The Thread unfollows Samantha being far into your margarita is perhaps the only time that arguing here makes that must be my This is all getting too for Anderson i believe the immovable thread mover has returned to quicken the mostly dead And you guys were all on my case last night because I want a first mover the meaningless fourth preseason game is winning in the battle for my It seems like a lot of the of the thread though it may happens later in the I have to stop Michael which one are you I got too depressed with SC Texas and switched over to the Lions Johnny Football can throw a FUGLY pass I would watch the BSU Ole Miss but no cable been saying for The Browns need to give Connor Shaw a way more mature than Johnny Football and a better Beats a Bears fan BUFFALO IS GOING DOWN You hear me but there were a few in the first half that were ugly nose of the football pointing like it slipped out of his Terrible I would really like someone to show how comedy was a species of the I quite get that Anne Schniederjan What if all the NFL logos smoked With Josh suspension for dat reefer dominating our newscycle yesterday harder than UPROXX MEDIA see the rotting corpse at MB I receive John Ruplinger We may not make it to I am so disappointed and Nina it has always been a numbers Numbers underlie The universe speaks in maths to those that have ears to calculate may not make it to to be the thread seemed to have been faulty pretty shortly out of the Andrews this thread is in serious need of a double forget what Marx says in his letter to Engels about the law of transformation of quality into He derives this from The return to Hegel is one of the central leitmotifs of this But probably too early for that the ghost of Hegel only haunts after Owl of yadda yadda yadda As for the Michael Mad TV Lowered Expectations Gena has lowered her expectations Episode Original Air The Michael As for Mad TV Lowered Expectations Gena has lowered her expectations Episode Original Air  agenti propter finem necessaria est cognitio distincta quia agens propter finem agit ex appetitu finis sicut igitur agens naturale agit ex appetitu finis sic agens per cognitionem agit ex appetitu per sed agens propter finem et per cognitionem est homo igitur necessaria est cognitio sui finis Sed distinctam cognitionem finis non habet homo ex Do not mock happy fun Noli mihi irritare sed opertet quod quis addat oleum Jumping back about a One that pertains to the of Lagrange distinguishes steps in theology The positive The analytic The apologetic The manifestative The explicative The illative It has been bothering me for a few but the illative as Lagrange is using it here reasoning from two premises to a is what is missing in and if he is to avoid evolutionism he has to hold that all such development is done in the other probably the explicative take the The which was was made Against the that sentence was thus The consubstantial with the was made This consubstantiality with the whatever some writers is much more than a theological deduced illatively from a revealed It is a truth only more explicitly with that found in the Prologue of It would seem must be doing something like that to avoid But here is the real problem for those of us without aversion to illative Can illative reasoning give us Now sometimes two both conclude in a third that is also stated elsewhere in more or less In that case a syllogism does not give us a new but shows the relations of And since revealed it can be considered But say two truths of faith conclude in a third not revealed While we would have to admit the certitude of that would it merely be a theological the denial of which could be condemned by the Church as theological but not heresy and over which the infallibility of the magisterium only touches because the logical consequent of its denial is a denial of a premise that is Or do we hold that it in formally but If the would we say that the syllogism only is the cause of subjective but the objective certitude still is based on God who The reasoning is not but a condition of us recognizing a more particular truth that was revealed in a more universal It seems that this is and most Thomists think Now Lagrange then rejects that a wherein one of the premises is of but the other of can be considered formally He considers them properly theological which cannot be dogmatically But it seems to me that the argument which he might lend itself to the claim at least when the major premise is revealed and the minor premise is by that the conclusion is of Just as revelation presumes a certain context of and we have the analytic and explicative procedures for that so too the context of natural knowledge here is merely revealing a more particular truth implicit in the revealed Or does this cease to be de because the objective certitude of the conclusion rests on the objective certitude of the and while only the minor premise is of that is still defective compared to revealed And I break record if Lagrange is that such cannot be de but only taught infallibly about insofar as the faith inherently presupposes or support such then it would seem things like heck most morality cannot be taught as de but only as connected logically to the And hence denial of these doctrines cannot be except in a extenuated the way the denial of the notions of the Trinity may be considered when one denying them realizes the logical consequent ofthat denial is denial of the but such denial is in se not And now I forget where I was going with football is just around the College Bowl Key Peele Meet the flamboyant players of the Collegiate New episodes returning Fall on Beitia V Tim Cantu V College Bowl Key Peele The best college athletes in the nation from the east and the west gear up for football favorite Only if this is going to be about I must excuse  cognitio autem finis hominibus necessaria etiamne Watch the They are You will like No Big fan of Ozamataz Buckshank all the way back to his days at even though The Shank terrorized the The bounty of The Thread with plenty for each and  Malo de lana caprina rixari quam  Beatus Scotus arguit illam opinionem in quod sequitur Speak laterem crudum lavem scriptu latine Beatus SCotus vel Corrigavi Lamb chop song that never ends brings to you hours of the song that never ends enjoy Thank This is one of my favorite old SNL The Dana Carvey Show Minisodes Episode Part Watch hundreds of free streaming movies to answer I But it is an interesting id correxi illum Cognitio latinae mea non includit declensiones vel conjugationes Bing bing altameae voglogo huisimon hola O magister non potest certitudinaliter et determinate sciri finis hominis nisi ex actibus aliquibus eius ordinatis ad talem sed nullum actum percipimus hic quo potentiae nostrae natae sunt pertingere et attingere substantiam separatam in igitur per nullum actum in nobis possumus arguere potentiam intellectivam ordinatam ad intelligendum finem in AND interesting about the illative sense which Newman derides in the chapter by that Non intelligo sensum illi quod Ioshua Why is everyone suddenly speaking Quia sumus maior quam gentibus it seems to me that if both premises are de the conclusion is de fide all the other conditions of a valid demonstration are as well because syllogism preserves necessarius non vel quam o perhaps it preserve certitude in the required sum homo mediorum utor Latina ecclesiae est latina mihi i was hoping to discuss midnight its pure and Michael referring to an earlier my guess is you read Lenin on motion because the marxists possibly provide the only alternative account of Of it relies on a denial of the law of but I think exactly a definition of transferrence from one locatliy to vel for even begin to hold to be fair he seems to think it is something and read Lenin on rereading it seems all conclusions from revealed premises are but as to the mixed less so though they should be held if But is the teaching on NFP not both Scriptural and known from natural law as well as known from the Fathers perhaps mixed in its premises but the teaching is only de fide and not I think those mean the same thing I guess that makes And what i said LATIN Um a fly just flew into my And not Is the Newman argument about development of doctrine or something back in the day there was a dustup about the People said Newman was a MODERNIST Was it good Probably better than my Yuengling Infallible is not coextensive with de but de fide is always infallible is when the Church solemnly teaches X to be de that is as it means it belongs to the deposit of the Or if we wish to be more if something is taught as de fide divina it is taught as belonging to But certain things are taught infallibly that are held de fide Such are dogmatic facts and propositions of reason necessarily true through connection with the Hence that Vatican I was a that Pius XII was pope are dogmatic and we hold these as because of an historical connection to the faith or rather the definitions of faith given by the soul is the form of the body is taught infallibly by the not as being part of the deposit of but as a knowable by that is logically connected to the faith so that deny it logically imperils holding a proposition that is We can be said to hold these that are infallibly taught by historical or logical as de fide The canonization of in would be Denial would be necessarily entailing a loss of the virtue of unless one at the same denied it knowing the logical or historical and thus denying a proposition of the I like yuengling Gross I was talking with a friend recently that if basic argument about the structure of a revealed religion is it can be used as an argument against other revealed religions which lack central authorities who are appointed for infallible interpretation the term I should be using  just because  Now if you agree with Lagrange that a third from premises both de fide can also be defined de fide holding that the syllogism is only a condition of its whereas the cause ofits truth and knowability is God who why we say the same of a syllogism where the major premise is de fide but the minor premise is know through that its conclusion is also de fide with the minor premise being analogous the natural knowledge used in the explicative part of By illative I meaning discursive reasoning that truly leads from one thing to another Not a restatement put more but a new proposition that follows that looks like good We can you Re Newman Joshua Kenz made clear he was not a Thomist by San Diego Not not sure about because the principle by which one knows the minor premise divine in the case of two de fide all the principles of the conclusion are known by the divine did the ancient Jewish religion have an infallible I suppose Aquinas implies Caiphas spoke infallibly about comments ago when I quoted the Quodlibetal and I think that was a nomal part of his office But for run of mill beer I have soft spot for yuengling Natty Thornburg Pride and a Little Scratching Pen Have Dried and Split the Hearts of The Impoverishment of Human Knowledge and the Role of Beauty in I went to the wrong This makes me want to go at the risk of being could I not also claim then that when I say Christ was one two that that is only a theological not de because the concept of person is not known by divine I guess I am trying to discover the line between where reason help illuminate what is as opposed to reason being illuminated by It seems clear to me if the major premise is of but the minor of it is not de fide because then it amounts to divine revelation bringing out a further truth implicit in natural Drank rice cream ale home brew from a Cappuchin friar I kind of I think because any error in concepts derives from errors in scratch having trouble formulating my Thornburg not even done reading Each one is better than the As my late grandmother would say in one arm in an arc to land in the position of holding her I guess I want to say that the divine light always presupposes that the illumined intellect has concepts to be under the influence of that When we say that something is known primarily pointing to the conjunctions of concepts asserted under the influence of the divine light rather than stating something about the concepts one is So your objection because it operates at a level presupposed to both matters of revelation and matters of If I see illumination one more what I called de fide divina versus de fide I believe is referred to in more recent documents as de fide credenda or de fide tenenda respectively I think it is pressupose to It involves not mere simple And judgment can be true or Thus one affirms the judgment that the concept of person is predicated of the principles of philosophy are known by a distinct knowledge when used as principles of I would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope He has criticized the color of my generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his here he months calling a woman a Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that Maybe she I doubt she but that Admit it fine with strong language as long as YOU do Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of in political and deserves Now go my just Thornburg Is there some way to access the complete library of I want to see if anybody has done anything like Plasticity of multiple modality activity and the metaphysical benefits of the rosary gift to You can physicallygo to TAC and see with Viltus will let you dig through old We teach theology as the Church tells us to teach with Thomas FWIW most Thomists agree with A minority think any syllogism that has a premise that is de even if the other is concludes in a de fide While a few hold that this is only true if the major premise I tried googling to find some of these arguments but the only hits I got were of myself talking about the same question years ago besides why do you care soooooooooooo Valerie Acors there should be such a I think now one has to ask college and they get permission from Not They actually ask seniors to sign a statement now giving them permission to distribute their We need the and we need wait Huh I realize this is given that my reading of The Neverending Thread is at like but I have to is the sinister implication of the Immaculate Conception not appearing thematically in the curriculum supposed to be that the somehow regret that  Comstock much But comments there are not He really should be We have Charles de Koninck to teach us about the Immaculate Go For the tonight in Boise a rehabbing first baseman for Seattle for the Everett reportedly took a bat into the stands to go after a scout after getting into it verbally with said Baseball is the greatest sport of all sure Montero will fit right in here when he is banned from It may be that no one other than me cares about but I find it completely The man is a professional or sock Weinberg that is indeed who he has spread the on Comstock using a number of different The Bull Elephant has recorded at least six different identities being used by all with different email Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock That is I was at Comerica Park last night watching the Tigers play the I do love please block Peregrine Bonaventure from The the medieval curriculum looked like years of philosophical starting around would bring the student to the approximate age of a TAC in the seventh year the student could either enter the Theology faculty or Canon Law or Civil Law and listen to lectures there for another seven years After two years running through the Sentences with Then one on the Sentences Then two years of biblical studies Then one could participate in the disputes under a master a year later one delivered initial lecture De Reductione Artium ad that you even begin to study theology until after the time at which most students graduate from this from Noone at All saying is that it might be inappropriate for any theology to be taught to students at that after look what like to know more about the campaign I missed that before dropping my little baseball anecdote in Are you the same Scott The guy pictured here looks Disqus Scott Weinberg Disqus is a global comment system that improves discussion on websites and connects conversations across the And Wasinger Campaign Calls Barbara Comstock UPDATED The the gesture is to be taken as an a bit wide of the mark to engage the same entity behind the whoever he Like I said thousands of comments I trust Please block I as I sort of want to keep him around for I think Isak is A rational person in this situation would issue a denial when confronted with evidence that one had acted atrociously and Or at least claim mistaken a Because playing the role of Queen of Random on this I just want to say that I wait until it hits Carry it certainly is Scott One of those a wedding is the same as the avatar in the Twitter screenshot you found all your profiles under various names whatever and a blowhard and a We cannot trust anything you say and cannot engage a sociopath in Get Unless Peregrine has the habit of stilling photos from this Scott Weinberg would be to admit to another unethical behavior Scott Christendom College grad who looks remarkably like PB and also remarkably like the person who commented on those articles relating to the VA Warren County South River and the Hatch Act Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time He is in the habit of maintaining multiple social media Get Your behavior disgusts Drag your lying carcass away from If you go to the bull elephant link the Jonathan Weinberg who calls McNickle nasty names has a profile picture which is clearly identical to the one I posted above in the Warren County Report Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock excuse not but clearly the same person Unless Scott has an erstwhile evil This is Seriously wondering now if PB is Well since you are not but have stolen pictures of his family and his profile I am reporting you to the profile which was posted above uses a thumbnail of you and your children which you used on your Peregrine profile until a couple days So are you stealing or vice really appalling the Scott Weinberg posted above uses the exact same profile picture you currently minus your eye Not appears to be the same The same what is to be done about   also appearing on that Scott Weinberg Your profile picture that appears under Jonathan Identical different profiles Feel free to delete or privatize that but I have screenshotted Stop yammering about dogma and admit a lying you honestly expect us to seriously answer you when you are clearly using multiple If blocked i call dibs on his post count for having been branded heretic and blocked by You are a I think he thinks TACers are not only arrogant but using someone elses obvious that your current profile photo just has a little black thing drawn on Wait the man who spawned plus comments on this thread via troll transcended to Dragon Level trolling is a And you guys are shocked and surprised at This has been nothing but amusement for him all We cannot take anything he says about the Catholic faith remotely seriously as long as this ridiculous deception Good work googling though should have been done long not shocked or This is typical behavior of The game is Knock it Here are some of the profile pictures of Scott Do they look If you think theology is memorizing a list of dogma is just one is no official you are a blathering I feel sad for your have a that has nothing better to do than to call women raging make fake lie and must be they are crudely copied and pasted but anyone can go see You get me mad I stand by my former I feel nothing but pity for whoever you are really doing your alma mater a huge disservice by misleading And completely undermining your No going to seriously entertain arguments from someone who is clearly But thanks for the relative This is the most fun had in and the only thing muting it is what Joshua Kenz posted i object to the implication that my posts are dragon why are you using Scott Or is it he who is using your this way likened unto blind men very many of those who boast that they have a knowledge of almost all who give themselves to the study of theology spend time with certain positive traditions and their and when they know how to speak as do the others whom they have set up as their they think that they are They do not know that they are ignorant of that Light in whom there is no of Apologia doctae ignorantiae just reported this brainless waste of I urge you all to do the Samuel A friends with both of this Can you bring any clarity to the I have he is Scott he has violated FB by having multiple If he has violated intellectual property Someone is using your photo to call women raging bitches and you think Dear It is all of in principiis suis and the answer is that I memorize any doctrines or because unlike the other people was a truly terrible part is not deadly on the Tim whatever you did on your own you were a joy to have in freshman freshman section were some great I remember you using your laptop to play the imperial march before I did the death star Stupid but like Shut your mouth Tim and math We play the imperial I think Baer would have been down with I already told I study anything at We must stop doing this you and ever let The Immutable Peregrine make you tried to suggest ignoring the I wish I could have had Tim in I would have been immensely But I had Victor Daniel Earl and a flurry of others whose personalities were about as compatible as oil and Made for some amazing Is it really possible to just collectively ignore this it would but as I nearly completely in the part of my called the block Are people really still being surprised by the obviously a pro internet Matthew but did you know the madness went this full of I think keeping the thread going you lost in ALL OF THIS is the fact that a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER took a BASEBALL BAT into the STANDS OF A MINOR LEAGUE GAME over an ARGUMENT WITH A on the verge of peeved at you all for making me almost forget watched it go this far in I actually gave you an ejicet merdam ex Redde tuo loco I guess that quote might have been at Samantha after I have no I made the mistake of unblocking in order to report let me reblock him for hrs The Peregrine has never shown any indication of the possibility of been looking in my gif folder for the summation of this Good I found Image TinyPic Free Image Photo Sharing Video Hosting is a photo and video sharing service that if you say one more insulting word to a you will ensure my fist in your teeth if we ever this just got a lot more I consider what I said more of a sarcastic shout in the street this makes me sorry I missed Olberman sure he had a lot of fun with that I follow your mistake Once it stays that I think it literally just so you should be able to catch it on his next it makes the responses to a entity more Peregrine do you act like this around my So my disbelief is mainly in naive belief that meaningful dialogue of some kind is possible after the provocative questions are lololol wheeeeeeeeeeee I think I stopped believing in meaningful dialogue about replies just enjoying poking the bear a God bless every you all ignored my gif so here is Matthew Peterson in front of his computer right now after what he has You know the number is study Can we collectively ignore this this wart on the ass of The Personally of the opinion it needs to be why do you deny the holy Whence came liberal Greg you are a professional psychologist please diagnose all of us and this like this only a mass blocking will do just block try trolling back a much funner idea  Why is Scott We know is it He was in my class others above and below He came from Vancouver Island at the time he is Canadian He never did make it at I believe he got past sophomore year He admitted to that comments ago tired of the This is why blog admins have a ban Teach me your How does one go about absolutely the best idea Troll the troll you trolled This is the door through which one can enter I am with I should have remained as I oh comments had blocked him before my first should have reported and then I urge everyone nto do and then then I shall be the only one who can see and it will be easier to ignore way I alone should is a hard but I am willing to do  It is fun to watch Michael Beitia handle I hate for you to be alone in your I will stand with you are a Christ Gamgee Oh Oh How many trolls does it take to get TAC grads to write thousands of Frodo Frodo Frodo Frodo Sequel to Gets really annoying xD One Thread And this this is his Was Pope Peregrine the Pinhead not the only answer me this why do you place the study of economics in front of the study of Why are you I think I you never answered any questions about your educational Peregrine Vandy is playing Temple right now and this is going to be the Vandy play of the game as things stand right Vanderbilt escapes jersey timeout penalty by showing email to ref Today in fun with NCAA rules you should ask him why the Pope wears white after labor That goes against dogmas of we all trolled him and were reverse trolled in I admire his clarity of purpose and his discipline is I like Daniel you might want to see this not a surprise in His message discipline is I want his hide nailed to my Sir Anthony I did not have sex with that mean with Troll The decor is all the rage in the big But I am just wondering why Pairgin has not answered my It really is quite simple he did not enumerate all the Doblez of his education which is necessary for holy mother Yeats later he gets his revenge upon the Book of Faces with over a year of And his message never I find it I claim the right to the troll hide are you really expecting to get a serious answer from this Ya if Matthew blocked PB see this post I But that might delete all his comments and hurt the overall comment AND NUMBERS Because this is But Peregrine before you answer my question about church dogma first you must answer me how many politicians does it take to pylon a How can you write up home without knowing I think getting under his His if they wanted him in he must be a great I apologize for mistaking your Clearly my real issue was with Scott I know how I made that I will tune in tomorrow People give him a chance to answer my questions Friday night is always his best show more I can hardly always time to answer the  he hasnt answered nary a question in plus How could I block The He is what he Without like Joker to there is no please say words like It offends The what care I for Time flies like an Fruit flies like a All I ask is one him simple question and he yells at me his school is full of arrogant jerk laughing so hard I can hardly The Blessed Book of Beasts Paraprosdokian I just taught my rhetoric students using that very example the other a paper Megan hyperventilate why is your poetry so Notice on that his kickstarter name is but it links to this why is your poetry so I think the Blessed Book of Beasts should include a Thread Notice how quickly peregrine leaves for ass and very simple questions that he cannot answer is because he have the answers because his school is fundamentally flawed I love the idea of a new And politics is and I can understand wanting to get out and write such a thing and turn a new Blessed Beasts A Blessed Bestiary in Verse A bestiary is a literary collection of each one of which conveys a practical lesson or a moral If blocked the thread might grow at a leisurely Think of PB as the start up troll but you need to think long You if it turns out that Scott suffers from multiple personality disorder going to feel really really horrible about this whole I think the naive idea that and dialogue will lead anywhere in this situation is All I care about at this point is my troll So and insults The finest rhetorical Negation of the It seems so cold and I will make troll hide boots and a funny Like leaving your wife of for two after she helped you to make it through to prime The essence of the world spirit is silliness on the way to respond to a troll Adrw is en fuego See Translation World Spirit Networking is seeing a real spike in global troll hide  So some of you know who he really why I refused to call him Peregrine and not add We really need a preface to this thread I am opposed to prefaces in silliness are the only ways to respond to troll We knew he was but we know what all Scott got up to in his spare  Are Canadians allowed to do Jody I knew Peregrine Bonaventure was a but I had no idea what a pro this magnificent bastard We need a a sadder version of Anthony And Peregrine Bonaventure is his version of Carlos And Only in I in the amendment about the right to And an Several John wins Well  And notes John Ruplinger writes The Pascendi I would like to thank the TNET I still want to see The Thread printed out on an endless roll of Pater Edmund writes its Syllabus I just want this to get to I will write an apology to all of our KEEP YOUR PET TROLL But he is going to turn you all into It happened YOU have been We are very proud of you all over here at World Spirit Please step right this way towards the door marked of My wife went to bed almost an hour Just a few more Tim do you remember when I played the World Spirit for the Pursuit and introduced the line of philosophers while wearing Kevin pimp what a ludicrous dream undergrad And a prayer for The Peregrine before Good night everyone congratulations on reaching post see all you crazies And if any of yall are ever in hit me up and we can go if Tim say shit in maybe he could do as I did and say it in Latin another post of mine used more Latin I think the one referring to Scott as ejicit is my finest Or as used the Greek word for it in the Well wide Maybe now I can finally go back to convincing Pater Edmund of the worth of The Great I also really want to hear about his dissertation on the when hopefully have some video of Jesus Montero taking that bat into the stands to go after the Josh By all any but pray mercy and grace for Foster We will answer for every idle Daniel a big apparently so is A friend of mine was telling me I should read Infinite Jest get to that I read when I was living in and enjoyed I usually try to know someone better before I recommend but because an my favorite I liked Brief My favorite was I Sold Sissee Nar To Right I the novel I would put up there would be Iris A Severed But a discussion for another ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε καὶ ἡγοῦμαι πάντα ζημίαν εἶναι διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον τῆς γνώσεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ κυρίου διὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡγοῦμαι ἵνα Χριστὸν κερδήσω And I count all things to be but loss for the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ my for whom I have suffered the loss of all and count them but as that I may gain The Greek is It is the Greek vulgarity for not the polite term for Maybe Scott blocked me because i am good friends with someone who ran against weninger and That makes more I obviously missed a meeting or  See Translation Welcome back been claimed his on For Sam and anyone just joining would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope He has criticized the color of my generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his here he months calling a woman a Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that Maybe she I doubt she but that Admit it fine with strong language as long as YOU do Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of in political and deserves After that everyone found all his other social media profiles with the same et But now we are in love with him and want to have his I would like to sire your Edward comments How am I a I had to Familial and what if still wanted I can bring texts to bear about the whole NFP I really am not sure about but I am disposed to a certain opinion that seems to be in consonance with Scripture and the And Callistos can live on my  There are some great deliverance prayers on this Once this thread hits pick one to pray and go to Spiritual Warfare Deliverance English Prayers Spiritual Warfare Deliverance Prayers Catholic Resources to Break Free from Demonic More Information about  And pray for Peregrine Scottie too I am just waking up here in Wait one hot did this thread take puritanical Fuck Peregrine I was wondering why your poetry is so  Maybe Sam Rocha could add a song to the We had a musical interlude for a I will watch over TNET while you all I think this is likely the least Puritanical thread do you need to be caught the thread does not It is I am doing I saw that The Troll was insulting women That was the thing that made me lose my temper last A from Late to Rest in You Fair outrage Always already Is the metaphysical question whether Peregrine is real or  Thanks St pray for Nice All too  Matthew TNET essentially facebook for the accusations of trollery had to do with your tactic of releasing a couple firebombs in the thread and then disappearing for the next comments or so but it was mostly a It has replaced my news Hey real quick does anyone know what kind of metal I need to make a needle strong enough to sew this Working on a troll hide jockstrap at the And since I am friends with a bunch of my former high school students there is substantially more well at least it got a conversation maybe And showed Scott to be a misogynistic In addition to other But maybe politics is safer than talk that you might be interested in this Who translated the passage left in Latin in Augustine sophomore front of the I heard that anyone had done That was the most attempt to hide the meaning of a passage ever It is a very mild if I remember Augustine was always very discreet with Well if you read the rest it was essentially a guess a sprinkling is but all in one place is too much I think it was the least mild Augustine ever was on the and crossed the line for those Victorians Augustine was so earlier CASE PLACE Super in omni scientia acquiritur aliquis habitus per rationes Sed in hac doctrina non acquiritur aliquis quia cui tota doctrina haec non est habitus sed Ergo non est CASE PLACE Super ad Ad aliud sicut habitus principiorum primorum non acquiritur per alias sed habetur a sed habitus conclusionum a primis principiis ita etiam in hac doctrina non acquiritur habitus qui est quasi habitus sed acquiritur habitus eorum quae ex eis deducuntur et quae ad eorum defensionem the Victorians edit the Bible at Tamar Everyone edits the bible I have a book from called It is a small handbook for rather unlike other handbooks in that it attempt to be a moral theology It recommends Certain areas are put partially in Latin and the author says in the preface that it is to prevent the laity from delving into sexual but some other to me material forbid the laity know that priests might have sins to confess that would seem to go against I remember translating that passage now that you quoted think much at the but I took these passages to be indicating the existence of an acquired supernatural think that was formulation of the special status of Sacred But I think you might be that a conclusion drawn from two de fide premises is not itself de fide since a conclusion is less known than its That is a good point I have been reading that Scotus I looked this up in connection with this Scotus class be I guess Henry of Ghent thought that the theologian had a special an between the light of Faith and Beatific Vision by which he had greater insight into theology than the ordinary man But Supposedly Scotus and Godfrey of Fontaines reacted strongly to this But this is John of the etc all say it is de When both premises are de The dispute seems to always be over whether one with a premise of reason with Suarez saying it Either I am misunderstanding Thomas in the passage he change his or virtually every Thomist has interpreted him I am but I understand your I probably missed something in my scan of the posts I think the question can the conclusion of a syllogism from revealed truths be de  I think this has become the Platonic form of Are we speaking of de fide as more than a canonical What I is that if I were to propose a doctrine Mary is Mediatrix of all I think that would follow from de fide principles she is the Mother of assumed into while I think it is would it follow that belief and assent to this doctrine is before it has been defined by the Maybe it would have the force of de but I see how one could be compelled to believe on pain of being declared a formal heretic without the doctrine being Well with the that the the question is can it ever be define de Or is it relegated to being a theological yes capable of being infallibly but not de fide divina de fide as opposed to de fide or de fide If that is the then I would I see why it could not be so Ultima propositio immediate deducta per proprium discursum ex duabus præmissis formaliter quatenus infertur ex illius vi et est conclusio specificative tamen et considerata est de ob idque tam per quam per Theologiam possumus illi Hæc quam sub hæc distinctione pauci redigit ad debitam concordiam dissidium quodest super hac re inter dum ut necnon et absolute docent dictam propositionem esse quidam ut et quos et sequitur Hurtado absolute illam esse de Possunt enim recte si primi loquantur de prædicta propositione quatenus habet rationem conclusionis illatæ ex præmissis ultimi vero sermonem instituant de ipsa specificative sive considerata præcise ex parte Et sane quidquid sit de sensu Thomistæ solum loquuntur de illa ut est conclusio deducta ex ut eos consulenti Quo sensu verum est prædictam conclusionem esse propositionem Nec quominus alias sit de fide ex quod est deducibilis ex duplici præmissa formaliter ut statim Cursus Tomus Tractus de dubium para I think that settles the case with two premises of faith latin quote typed by hand I just realized I failed to post the rest of it before closing the text And not it goes on even further than I addressing theother cases one So the claim there is formally thelogical while materially speaking de fide  Or at least capable of being so So what would the implications of denial be before In what sense do you  The Thread is absurdly With regard to many comments back Smaug is too noble a comparison for the when first I started reading this a week it reminded me of a Terry Pratchett Now all I can think besides the TAC is and Guildenstern Are So many glorious exchanges of the profound and Joshua Kenz had previously said that in one circumstance it would destroy the gift of Faith while in another it would be If one clearly grasps the premises but refuses to assent then one would have to attribute it to a bad One could have a poor I know what Joshua Kenz was talking It would be materially heresy if one did not realize the connection with defined formally heresy if they mortal sin I thought it was standard teaching that any sin against faith destroys it So wondering how the particular distinction between de truth relates to Destroys the faith simply speaking formed Sic Aquinas in Summa Theologica consequences of denying the notions I dicendum quod ad fidem pertinet aliquid Uno sicut ea quae nobis sunt principaliter divinitus ut Deum esse trinum et filium Dei esse et Et circa haec opinari hoc ipso inducit maxime si pertinacia Indirecte vero ad fidem pertinent ea ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium sicut si quis diceret Samuelem non fuisse filium ex hoc enim sequitur Scripturam divinam esse Circa huiusmodi ergo absque periculo haeresis aliquis falsum potest antequam vel determinatum quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium et maxime si non pertinaciter Sed postquam manifestum et praecipue si sit per Ecclesiam quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium in hoc errare non esset absque Et propter multa nunc reputantur quae prius non propter hoc quod nunc est magis manifestum quid ex eis Sic igitur dicendum est quod circa notiones aliqui absque periculo haeresis contrarie sunt non intendentes sustinere aliquid contrarium Sed si quis falsum opinaretur circa considerans quod ex hoc sequatur aliquid contrarium in haeresim Lendman heresy utterly completely destroys Heretics cannot have the virtue of unformed or But one can deny even an infallible teaching that is de fide tenenda rather than de fide credenda and still have the virtue of really sad that I keep checking this thread for of course you are I misread what you had typed I was just about to correct in Just to be abundantly Formal heresy does destroy the gift of As does denying the conclusion of a syllogism from two de fide credenda Just to make everything But only if one clearly sees the connection to the premises de fide  BTW FWIW an example given of a theological truth that could be aruably be taught de fide but is with this syllogism Esse sequitur personam Atqui in Christo est unica persona Ergo in Christo est unum esse Now the first premise is from the second is de fide therefore the conclusion is not de fide but merely a theological Scotus would deny the but that means he would have to deny the first Another example is Infused knowledge is necessary so that the human intellect not remain imperfect And the human intellect of already on ought not be imperfect already on had infused knowledge III The major premise is not de so neither is the conclusion de fide or definable as dogma The Church could condemn the contrary as even infallibly but not heretical But It is revealed Christ is true God and true man And for true humanity a rational soul is essentially required Therefore Christ had a rational That conclusion is de fide divina and was defined against the It is by that it is not but only subjectively It is consider as leading reason to explain the subject and predicate already given in and not adding a third He gives no example of two premises concluding in a third truth that is de fide and is not revealed But I suspect it is true of certain Marian I cannot see some are in revelation except as maybe counting The common bard today is to try and claim it is all in but that is not true of the that gets into another Despite having to spend a ridiculous amount of time every day catching up on the latest The Thread is the best thing to happen to my Thank you to everybody who made it even or especially our very own resident we keep Can we keep But seriously glad I kept up with I was privy to an amazing display of intellectual discussion the rational and I want to thank all you super smart people out there for providing me with all of this metaphysical and theological material that I only got a glimpse of at I have thoroughly enjoyed being a part of and hope to benefit from the bounties of TNET for a while yet The perfection of man to a large extent is the perfection of his since things have been quiet for I will share with You my Contemporary theological considerations regarding life between death and resurrection have been fraught with contention and have shifted to a point where the very meaning of resurrection has all but been It was in response to this confusion that the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the This document had this in particular to say regarding the The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after an element endowed with consciousness and so that the To designate this the Church uses the word the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of LETTER ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING ESCHATOLOGY The recent Synods of Bishops dealing with evangelization and catechesis have created increasing awareness of the need for perfect fidelity to the fundamental truths of especially at the present when profound changes in human society and the concern to integrate the Christian faith Then Josef wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about Thomas appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of took this formulation soul is the form of the and gave in terms of his own a fundamentally new a careful scrutiny of both and treatment of the makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the soul is the form of the a new To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several and in different This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily Neither of these seem I argue that use of this formulation is fundamentally the same as and that this in no way contradicts the above teachings regarding it is in light of revelation that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new treatment of the soul is quite to a mode proper to Thomas in no way rejects this but even follows it in certain places in his own With the benefit of Thomas is able to approach the consideration of the soul beginning with God but does not fundamentally change the meaning of soul as forma but is an authoritative confirmation of this fundamentally Aristotelian This seems to fit nicely into the and theme and I think here one sees the way in which faith and and Thomas and Aquinas interact on an important matter of philosophy and most of are still asleep or are just waking so I expect any thoughts when anyone who is who is likewise drawn back to the thread gets a I would love to hear thoughts on the Are you saying you think the self endowed with consciousness and surviving death is an Aristotelian good morning up before my I probably have about minutes catching lots went on after I went to I remember a lecture at where a certain Tutor no longer got very worked up indeed on whether was the person or I may have missed the I remember but that never proves anything as bad as my memory can but I do remember you telling me about That was a fun can I just say I TOLD you guys that Wasteland quote was directed at I feel vindicated Who gave I remember his And on that is there a way to get a list of the lectures that occured while we were I have no But the tutors got REALLY into It was a fun PB has mental In support I offer Science Internet Trolls Really Are and Sadistic In the past few the science of Internet That though was not principally on my you PM me the rest of your assume it was the precis or that you posted understanding of what part of the intellect survives is pretty different than what the Church Joel I would send it to you if I had finished writing I posted that troll study comments Eternal It is not other It is continual manifestation of TNET I hope to finish it next Joel HF  it is not clear to me that it is I actually missed despite being here from the people who the paper says also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits for and the overall time that an individual per commenting on the The Church says very in about the of of the That is to separated I think we had better hope that more than just an impotent active way of surviving is seriously limited does the Church in your know very little about what it does or propose The Church does not say very much about the state of being of the separated I think you are probably But and to the extent that is it would have to be a The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after an element endowed with consciousness and so that the To designate this the Church uses the word the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and just going off of what Daniel quoted I thought that STA proposed that by way of the soul was able to operate beyond mere impotent but by nature all that survived Something not contained within the nature of the and so also not at all sure Aristotle would be able to say that the subsists after death But nor would the as I was or the point of contention between the two tutors in Not strictly The Church says that a human soul or spiritual element but this in not what it is to be To avoid identifying call them and off to Later But you never responded to my question comments ago about the Church teaches that a soul has a relation to you are probably Which when you were all like Paul and the Fathers are against Have See Oh Family obligations drew me yes I forgive you first of I think Paul and the Fathers would be totally supportive of I think they would highly recommend Well At the same they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of so when I was all the church fathers think lots of What about The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally becomes merely venially And venial sin is only sin secundum I think the cool thing about cool at  now my family obligations We shall How did NFP get I am so Obviously I had too much of an actual life what I get for As far as the Peregrott is I outed him on another thread ages And repeatedly counselled humor over outrage at this is way but I say keep him on TNET because it gives me a chance to and I oh so enjoy as to the substance of his supposed sexist I love me some Raging and it is in MD Raging Bitch IPA Flying Dog Brewery A Maryland craft brewery that views brewing beer as And exactly is our I I knew a whole ago he had multiple profiles but Uh Jody seems to be the only who has met him personally he changes faces I take him to be kind of like the slave boy in except he asks questions instead of answering and come to any So maybe the opposite of the slave The slave boy can be taught I have literally never heard that sex during infertile times is venially quite sure no such notion in Paul the Sounds like something that comes from the view that sole valid purpose is for which I thought had been pretty thoroughly By I know that anyone that I mean sane people who are in the has held that the ONLY valid purpose of the conjugal act is it is the position of the that procreation is the primary aim of the conjugal But then why would you think the thing about sex being venially Is this a problem of Because I doubt during the conjugal act many are thinking primarily of procreation that is certainly If one looks at spouse with an eye toward where the evening may end up is that venial sin Because if a man is it is Which is why the Fathers held that it while it was possible to engage in the marital act without venial it was very to I think this idea of married sex being the same sort of thing as unmarried just less sinful get some things seriously wrong about I think the Fathers would say Fair Then living with a spouse is venially sinful because the Fathers were seriously uncomfortable with sexual Good we have to I think that would be a gross of what the fathers and the church come read Augustine For But that is not in opposition to it being a pathway to I know about Look at secular Roman and they were living at a time when sexual mores were arguably worse than now Marriage is supposed to end in  you when one of us and every Martha has to end up a Mary  the better part does not mean the only part Of course I knew I should have become a you would be the Church is not afraid of venial study more and reason to perfection It is okay to not be living the life of perfection right Why would you say that married sex is almost always venially sinful if you affirm that it is good to desire your One just wants to end In all will be But no one will really be married unless you are talking mystically and with Just to be very I only hold this position with very The reason I do hold is because I know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the You keep talking about the What this ties in well with the distinction between and from the above heaven discussion I think our culture has a huge blind spot re that it is impossible unless one is some sort of clearly wants everyone to be as celibate as they are able to even if they are married I The Fathers run with this in weird but even JPII according to some held that celibacy was a universal goal for I read any It is good for a man not to touch a But for fear of let every man have his own and let every woman have her own Let the husband render the debt to his and the wife also in like manner to the Paul never indicates in the least that he would like married people to be quite the The idea is that this is to avoid and he gives lots of reasons for this none of which are that married sex is wish all could be as I I think Paul thought married sex was Because he is able to focus entirely on the not because married sex is sinful the conclusion Daniel is drawing I am no It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently And condemned I that married infertile sex is venially I will say that and married fertile if one pondering the procreative aspect It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently This is the passage I was thinking of not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a so that you may devote yourselves to Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of No I I would not say that no again Nor have But you did say not just most usually I It seems that the Fathers and Paul would teach us that marital act that deliberately avoids conception would be venially the same they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of   Corinthians take Paul in that passage to be recommending continence to married but counseling against it come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of Daniel Lendman is a That is different that saying sex is and cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally becomes merely venially Damn I have been found tell my not but rather not being the mb telliing Pope Bonbon I have to take my kids to school and go to the I leave this to Though I guess we have already My wife takes the kids to already at And I changed cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally becomes merely venially To cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally becomes merely venially My kids old enough for are just now figuring this you should have Big Angry Daniel at I think he wanted the to be Burkas at all even in the NOT that is just pbish lack of distinguishing and you know School in August is a I I kid took no hell I have in junior high I was always  and that was not helped by a severe lack of  You are I   And re lack of you and me I think part of the challenge to this view has to do with I think that the Fathers and ancients in general had a much more robust notion of the unity of that is the best thing I have ever seen you I it kind of came out of but If your contributions continue along that we can be speak too Linda Blair always comes back would like to hear your take on what I said about Paul and continence your duties to your family of In re to the I think the stronger notion of the union of humanity helped them see how marriage and children are really ordered to the good of all  One more The position I have forwarded is not one that to be I am really and honestly just trying to understand where the teachings of Scripture and the Fathers take better notions about lots They are far more coherent than we in our incoherence give them They were young we are they robust we The oracle has I also as a that the Fathers all were weird about That might be but I would be loathe to assume that and dismiss their The intellectual customs of our day are too suspect for us to dismiss the Fathers so YES DL YES In any to complete my thought from I think the modern view of continence is If all are taught that continence is impossible probably shows some sort of psychologically harmful then will be For this I think it is useful to listen to counsel from other ages with an CANON any one that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of or of and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in or in than to be united in let him be anathema Remember when you started that petition to make the dress code Good caeci caecos All i am is why I tend to agree with listening to other ages wisdom at the same we need to understand how marriage leads the married to not just moral sin and somewhere along the way we missed St of marriage had nothing to do with but was rather about his desire that everyone should be free to serve the gospel without distraction he would have been REALLY against the Thread how do you take the passage I quoted One of the distractions is Lust is a sin that partictularly blinds And i am not claiming to be the one eyed in a land o the blind labor me later I mean otherwise his advice to everyone would be to leave their and become a church fathers may have actually given this in in marriage i take sanctification to mean a development i use that from physical union to spiritual with God and I am strongly tempted so that this thread may cover every hot button mind post a few comments on the I think that reading of Paul is perhaps I think that Joel HF is that you would have to account for this not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a so that you may devote yourselves to Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of I am so tempted to wade into this but I no I get  your reading of Paul in that regard would be in the accord with the Which mean that your position is Too late And That would only be his advice if he recognize the obligations spouses have to each which he clearly did The Neverending Thread will not release I follow Can you my position that Paul was against sex in But he did counsel periodic Andrews YO SCOTTY Care to explain how Bernard been dead since could give you a blurb for your book you allegedly The one you have a kickstarter for Three years after he  reading of the early Canadian the married pioneers did at a point start living without Edifying not I think that the fact that virginity for the sake of the Kingdom is the higher calling means that the lesser calling is in any way And what does that have to do with the NFP issue I would appreciate your The neverending thread release me AND it made me spill coffee on just to be the position that it seems like the Scriptures and the Fathers would hold is that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation is venially that make sense from a continence What MB No one to my thinks that the marital act is sinful per it is the lack of a conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently if Daniel how do you reconcile that with the approval of So too is dieting IF continence is even then how often are married couples required to perform the marital act during fertile Immediately I is it like going to confession once a year To cite Janet If not obligated to have then how is avoiding it It is only a sin if So how often to I have I see why it is wrong for the Church to encourage an act that is venially That is better that mortal There is nothing wrong with I meant Did you eat for the taste Did you make the meal all special and fancy and about more than fulfilling bodily urges to sustain your SINNER There is not reason that would involve a venial Do you really think the Church is encouraging venial  I just see why it would be a it Because she ultimately tells everyone to strive for this argument just seems crazy to me Matthew the problem is not The problem is disordered it is it seems that the scripture and the Fathers support With the food And the traditions of the Is it a venial sin to eat ice cream or I it really have much nutritional value at  I drink wine to hydrate But eating too much would  And thus please in virtue of fulfilling the central natural end of But drinking too much would be The ultimately striving for celibacy thing as far as I can that all are destined for the wedding feast of the Lamb and no one will be having sex with anybody Meanwhile some live that as But the idea that married people should strive to be more and more celibate is probably contrary to their fact marriage is ordered to Ideally even in this After fertile I quoted cannon X on marriage from Trent everyone agrees the that celibacy is the better Some of us are Martha But not Ummm That umm is about celibacy in infertile I guess most or half or at least of all eating even outside of much quantitatively would be sinful under this What Or line of Certainly booze and candy would be at least venial Individual act not ordered to the central or primary natural true And this has been the constant cousel until very in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends such as mutual the cultivating of mutual and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is The same thing would follow with regard to booze and No that was about religious versus married I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse what do you take nature of the to  TNET touches on all wha Have you noticed that if you use feature on mac to catch up on the thread the sounds like a valley girl because it says Wha everything knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse The Catholic version of something I wrote on NFP on another written for TACers so forgive the of Nature for been mulling this and there are lots of things I would like to but I just respond to what Steve H wrote above about since I think the meaning of is really key to thinking about these not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would but give it a When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it So the of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops stretches out toward the bears Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a toward a that the thing is supposed to So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of so Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its This is the sense of nature from which natural law is human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek knowledge of God and to shun what is destructive of those Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a A human person on the other hand is human because of her this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural but also to human and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Human because they are directed by human can be said to One can look a kind of human actions and ask is the nature of this sort of what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act In our case one can ask is the nature of the sexual What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP It too is an example that many people find hard to and for the same but I think it can help us to understand what means in this The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs The Catechism of the Catholic Church its very lying is to be This is based on analysis of the nature of Speech is by ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her if she he trying not to offend anyone says something which is directly contrary to what she then she violates the nature of the action is Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by that is by saying something true which they are liable to Classic Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the the persecutors ask his men you seen and his men answer his he is near The persecutors hurry on up What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a In both cases one is intending to But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of the wrong of act that you are When you equivocate you are certainly not to communicate but the act nevertheless is the right of it has the of true even though in this case you sure hope it succeed in communicating The case of NFP and contraception is The primary end of sexual intercourse is Of course sex also realizes other the union of the pleasure But the one that defines that makes it to be what it that gives it nature is Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech also strengthens sounds nice But it is communicating truth that gives speech its is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others Hence Thomas teaches that one even the out of look or the jocose lie are So the question contraception kind of act is What Paul VI teaches John Paul II expands on at great is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is not just that one is not to that the kind of act one is choosing is not a kind of act It have the nature of proper and hence it is It is like a NFP on the other hand is more like In an emergency situation caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or one does not want the sexual act to result in So one chooses to engage in a true sexual but in such a way that it will not result in Just as sailors say something but in a way that will not communicate the This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae I think the main point of John Paul Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of about the impression in us of the divine knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse but muh theology of the intercourse of marriage for the sake of begetting hs not but for the satisfying of but yet with husband or by reason of the faith of the it has venial On the Good of just waiting for the inevitable SSPX I also agree with Samantha up to a point about certain things the Fathers say about women being not quite But the Fathers are nothing compared to our very own Saint Albert the afraid Albert had some bad experiences with a lady in Cologne that rather colored his view of the fairer Andrews His blowing up when some lady friend of his announced she was getting which is to say there is no replacement for a conscience and a good spiritual director no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite Thérèse of parents celibate for large periods of their I see what they would be I also see why the converse would be wrong of no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite St Albert on women part And of and and Francis de Lips that sin by eating candy shall not touch my   Andrews Joel my understanding was that Louis and Zellie WANTED to be but were told no by their spiritual  Father argument against smoking is that no woman as would want to kiss you if you had But he is a of and not to be All Questions Concerning On Animals Fathers of the Andrews Ah Bekah could be but I thought they were celibate for a long while before their spiritual discerning a call for I have any position but I see why a couple that mutually agreed to abstain for a period of time a long period of if they were would be doing anything Just as I see why a couple that abstain would be doing anything wrong Another thing that we should perhaps think about is that some things were just lost in The It is certainly true that concupiscence is one of the things man must always live I think this was driving a great deal of what the Fathers were saying and thinking about I think there is anything intrinsically wrong of course about a married couple deciding to be celibate I think kind of if it is a mutual But I think it is what marriage is ordered to as Daniel Nor is not doing so a venial Andrews would think if both spouses were on then there be anything wrong with Unless their motivations were Or it was based misunderstanding of Church Which make them but make the situation not I would actually be interested in hearing what people think of my proportion Would you guys just chill til done working As I said I have no attachment to any outcome to this all that seems to be said against what seems to be the position of the Fathers and Scripture and Tradition is Andrews I would think if being celibate was a choice in indicative of something Perhaps physically or because it And it how God designed That Albert article is highly think Arguments have been given on both Other than a few no one at is dismissing any of the positions out of I Which is given the subject and the Andrews Pater I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments free to repeat it for ahh Like grandad used to its much easier to ridicule ones father than try to Pater thread moves way too Where did you give that proportion or Sorry kind of something I wrote on NFP on another written for TACers so forgive the of Nature for been mulling this and there are lots of things I would like to but I just respond to what Steve H wrote above about since I think the meaning of is really key to thinking about these not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would but give it a When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it So the of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops stretches out toward the bears Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a toward a that the thing is supposed to So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of so Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its This is the sense of nature from which natural law is human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek knowledge of God and to shun what is destructive of those Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a A human person on the other hand is human because of her this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural but also to human and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Human because they are directed by human can be said to One can look a kind of human actions and ask is the nature of this sort of what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act In our case one can ask is the nature of the sexual What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP It too is an example that many people find hard to and for the same but I think it can help us to understand what means in this The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs The Catechism of the Catholic Church its very lying is to be This is based on analysis of the nature of Speech is by ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her if she he trying not to offend anyone says something which is directly contrary to what she then she violates the nature of the action is Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by that is by saying something true which they are liable to Classic Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the the persecutors ask his men you seen and his men answer his he is near The persecutors hurry on up What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a In both cases one is intending to But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of the wrong of act that you are When you equivocate you are certainly not to communicate but the act nevertheless is the right of it has the of true even though in this case you sure hope it succeed in communicating The case of NFP and contraception is The primary end of sexual intercourse is Of course sex also realizes other the union of the pleasure But the one that defines that makes it to be what it that gives it nature is Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech also strengthens sounds nice But it is communicating truth that gives speech its is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others Hence Thomas teaches that one even the out of look or the jocose lie are So the question contraception kind of act is What Paul VI teaches John Paul II expands on at great is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is not just that one is not to that the kind of act one is choosing is not a kind of act It have the nature of proper and hence it is It is like a NFP on the other hand is more like In an emergency situation caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or one does not want the sexual act to result in So one chooses to engage in a true sexual but in such a way that it will not result in Just as sailors say something but in a way that will not communicate the This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae I think the main point of John Paul Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of about the impression in us of the divine Andrews not that that those comments lack the fullness of truth as taught by the views on marriage and sex what come from the Chair of Pater my object to the comparison is that deception is only permissible when one is deceiving someone who is not a valid To describe this more The situation must be an emergency and with regard to something that is not owed anything more by It seems with there is always a or someone that is owed something and the and Casti Conubii could be seen as On the Good of Marriage made into an Good morning everyone I have a Jesus Montero update for you Not Found I know why it says not found because the link is not Since new people have arrived I should make a few things clear that I said Just to be very I only hold this position with very The reason I do hold is because I know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the Joel what you said above is I think your objections Big Angry because in an emergency situation you doing the Church any harm by using What did I say i dont think it NFP seems ordered to mitigating concupiscence and thus We ought to strive higher not that i We deny flesh to be increase spiritually thus do we grow one with our end and paradoxically more unified with our Joel HF about people giving If one is deliberately avoiding one deliberately avoiding bringing more members into the If Dan is Big Angry is Pater Edmund now Or does the dignity of his office as a priest not of course his personal prophet in his own country and all preclude such Tommy Wally your position is that equivocation is sometimes better than but continence is always better than Is that what you are seem Andrews I think I see the comparison you are making Pater but I For a couple using the naturally occurring infertile there is nothing different in the act on their The fact that it does not bring for a child is simply a result of the nature God They are still completely ordered towards  Andrews NFP is But equivocation is ordered toward truth in exactly the same continence and NFP have different So Except when one deliberately engages in the conjugal act at such a time that one will not I see why it would have to be Perhaps NFP be the best just as marriage is lower than but that something is imperfect does not make it Andrews no not There is no hall of souls waiting to be released into the There are unique individuals endowed with a unique soul created by God at the moment of their is ordered toward truth in exactly the same as is Joel HF The problem is Andrews continence and NFP do have different going to go read some heretical German moral theology my not for that is not what was trying to even times of infertility is not an exact Certainly at the time of the there would have been very little way to determine when a child was or was not likely to why is making use of the infertile time necessarily I mean it might but that seems The real moral it seems to is whether or not there is a good reason to avoid the fertile time Andrews I guess I see equivocation as trying to cheat your way out of telling the kinda the whole Jesuit mental reservation and maybe I understand it But using naturally occurring infertile times waffling on the truth in any way shape or using the time God If procreation always had to be then it would seem a serious scandal when persons who through age or infirmity cannot Lucy Andrews I just think you can say that by being NOT pregnant you are keeping members from the I know the answer to this why is making use of the infertile time necessarily but I think the answer is Katie knows that old people marrying is just Andrews Why I what leads you to that answer to When children are a distinct the act is inherently unselfish and then open to being done without Though even this is hard to VENIAL SIN IS NOT Andrews the thing with are always a distinct Even when you think using an infertile I just changed infertile No one should worry about lusting over his Chances are people distinguish between lusting over their spouse and having ordered Venial sin but it is Only if it is habitual and leads one away from But that is what I meant by serious Joel I will Andrews sin is And to be And having sex with your when her chances of getting pregnant are a a the jocular lie is a but you probably have a lot worse sins to work on and So worry too I thought having sex was suppose to be a source of grace in if it is without I think that is venial sin can mitigate the efficaciousness of Andrews Sex during fertile times most certainly been done with concupiscence as The timing what makes it the spirit in which one approaches the Here is a a stable and loving relationship with your spouse is suppose to be the best thing you can do for your Sex is suppose to help Does this mean even sex can be for the greater benefit of the  in lieu of causing problems with the But it would be better to remain continent during that Andrews in my eyes denying yourself at any time in the especially for the greater good of the children and is a great It would I have two kids and never thought about sex this much in my we want to be better than habituated to venial ergo the interest in this But i agree that continence leads to closer union with God AND but thir is only possible by grace and it is inconceivable in our et eam tenebrae non Andrews No it It would be better to use the as created by Which means naturally occurring ebbs and flows to God created the body to carry life only I bring it up to say that a procreative intent even if the chances of conception are It is important to remember that the process of moral growth and development is It is not open to an imposition of We should not be surprised if most of us take a long time to achieve the Fathers say that sanctity in marriage progresses at a acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and the truly human performance of these acts fosters the they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and Sexuality is a source of joy and The Creator himself established that in the spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and They accept what the Creator has intended for At the same spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just The union achieves the twofold end of the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of Backing your play Bekah Sims Andrews As far as I can there is only one mere creature to whom one can wholly commit oneself that will in no way hinder your growth in and rather further and that is the Blessed Virgin the same spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just This is the whole What does this so do I need to become a hermit or because if going to make it into the foothills I can see from here before Marie wakes up not on Eastern time right gonna have to This is a false The union achieves the twofold end of the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of From the catechism Daniel you probably being called to be a So I Catechism can be And it is in this because betting be TERRIBLE at then I engage you in further debate great distinctions thanks in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends such as mutual the cultivating of mutual and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is Andrews I think we can achieve common ground if we accept the Catechism at face Caroline you should read Casti I know a woman who helped write She will tell you the There is a twofold good of marriage as a community of life Andrews Why does Casti Conubii trump the they both be read not one or the both with ALL the Church teaching on There is not a twofold as though one can order marriage to either the union of the spouses or Church teaches that procreation is the primary end and union or good of spouses is Catechism is not promulgated Andrews not what the Church It says the two cannot be separated from each Or even  But there is an Andrews The Catechism is said to be by the free of CCC has gone through editions bc of Catechism of trent is much there are many things NOT even in the CCC and they are soooo helpful ok you can open your eyes again The Catechism is part of the official teaching in the sense that it was suggested by a Synod of requested by the Holy prepared and revised by bishops and promulgated by the Holy Father as part of his ordinary Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of Encyclicals are generally part of the extraordinary magesterium Catechism part of the ordinary magesterium That is why I take encyclicals over CCC is a great place to but the reason they reference original documents is because they are not The worldly evidence of people having a sacramental marriage who cannot conceive is dealt with only as the highest good is that of only committing habitual venial Or a Josephite marriage Please convey this to your Bekah Sims I am afraid I might have scandalized I think that is a more difficult I assume that they are open to and desire even if it seems unlikely very that they will But a pretty day to day real one Not Intention is everything in moral not everything Is this really Catechism of the Catholic which I approved June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic is a statement of the faith and of catholic attested to or illumined by Sacred the Apostolic and the I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial John Paul II also stated that the Catechism given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic ALMOST Fair It is everything when evaluating the blame or praiseworthiness of an is everything in moral Mmmmkay well someone needs work on his Moral Veritatis Encyclical John Paul II The splendour of truth shines forth in all the works of the Creator in a special in created in the image and likeness of God Gen Truth enlightens intelligence and shapes his leading him to know and love the Hence the Psalmist the light of Edward I think this series is going to really help my coment What I meant is that intention is what is formal to a moral Catechism is part of the ordinary teaching Andrews pass it along to And maybe her brother as Jim Burnham Catholic Apologetics Academy Jim Burnham currently serves as the director of San I have read Veritatis I have studied and taught moral theology for Object is what is considered most formal to determine whether an act is praiseworthy or Pardon me if I slipped in my I am not going to have this debate with you right I am in the middle of another All I will say what determines the Andrews Oh debate supposed to be doing countless other gotta But you went to Daniel We ALLOWED to read magisterial I am found done working now there is too Now it is known that I am a Puritanical magesterium I feel like this is not the sort of thread where one can confine oneself to a discussion with one Engage the or not at I remember all the Magisterial documents were locked up in a You had to get special permission just to LOOK at The thread has no I would like to point out to everyone that Pater Edmund affirmed my highly disputed statements about the church Fathers Puritan with two kids less than a year apart Adrw your paper on the moral act would come in  The CCC stuff should lead nicely into the upcoming SSPX I mean I remember editing that Magisterium magisterium Ima quote paragraph morality of the human act depends primarily and fundamentally on the rationally chosen by the deliberate I am leaving if SSPX comes Sometimes I wonder if you people are real people or if I dream you I will have to look for Then we are Then I remember that my imagination is not nearly this Oh I want that paper However we can further analyze the object into formal and material think that Joel HF is that you would have to account for this not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a so that you may devote yourselves to Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of Please not get into the whole SSPX worse than the NFP my short ACPA sure what you need not caught up LOL Going back to I would say that there anything I need to account for in that A good source is book on the Object of the Too bad like another the object of a given moral one cannot mean a process or an event of the merely physical to be assessed on the basis of its ability to bring about a given state of affairs in the outside that object is the proximate end of a deliberate decision which determines the act of willing on the part of the acting as the Catechism of the Catholic Church are certain specific kinds of behaviour that are always wrong to because choosing them involves a disorder of the that a moral And Saint Thomas observes that often happens that man acts with a good but without spiritual because he lacks a good Let us say that someone robs in order to feed the in this even though the intention is the uprightness of the will is no evil done with a good intention can be are those who And why not do evil that good may Their condemnation is book i dont think anyone here would go to bat for the I am closest and Fasting from sex sometimes is mean usually venially or whatever Big Angry is And a really nice ALthough I remember telling him I was using his book to critique Then Jensen pulled me aside to tell me Finnis directed FOOT IN  preventing of lust is one of the purposes of So not the only or the main it just happens to be the one Paul mentions there for reminding me that I am a mental I never held that abstinence is venially to my did the Great story John Boyer Well then avoiding conception through abstinence be venially sinful Instead of talking about SSPX or we could always talk about lying to a Nazi when you are hiding Jews in your That should be good for several hundred At least not as an abuse of possibly as an abuse of some other like generosity or something And we have Thomas for that Joel brought that up Samantha because your account of why Paul recommends against marriage only included the The point is that is seems from that text that Paul is encouraging celibacy and allowing the conjugal encouraging celibacy and allowing I figure out how to post my MA I can email a copy if anyone needs it LOL a very different point  Yes try dropbox and sharing publicly If the act of abstinence is not intrinsically and if the act of having sex at infertile periods is not intrinsically the intention will have to give is a false The union achieves the twofold end of the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of say less wrong than imprecise and given to Daniel are times I go to Joshua Kenz and his million moral manuals just waiting to be combed I Cause just post paragraphs in Latin and it will take too long to Albigensianism is Does this Andrew Lang MA Thesis Complete Archival Version Scribd is the largest social reading and publishing YARP The question comes to If one engages in the conjugal act with the intention of avoiding the question comes to Paul seems to encourage spouses to periods of continence and says that if they do to temptation then they should engage in the marital Spousal unity can be attained and perfectly so in without the conjugal  ask for the dummy Paul would love it if everyone would stay single and devote themselves to spreading the he recognizes that some people would burn up with passion if they did so he admits that marriage is perfectly fine thing to not really even talking about sex You are joining up passages that go He is not saying spouses should only have sex if they stay That is just not there at I think that agrees with what Daniel just The first paragraph you posted Derp It does not This thread is moving too This thread is If one can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal then it seems that the only reason one would seek the conjugal act for the marriage union and not engage in the higher and more unitive practice of continence would be due to some This the Fathers would is generally Or more I think claim is that forgoing sex at some time is intrinsically But that deliberately avoiding sex to prevent children is intrinsically wrong because in that case one is willing to avoid Kinda like fasting is not intrinsically wrong but going on a hunger strike is Who says you can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal That is blargh  I think going to be ill the imprecision of the cycle is irrelevant because all that means is that one would act differently to achieve the end one is that sounds rather NNL to Violate basic goods It is deliberately engaging in the marital act without the intention of having children is likely venially sinful or Daniel to beget Joseph and Mary say WHY WHY WHY is it likely venially And remember the intention need not be front and think mistake involves not ordering the basic goods Because of  We simply do not have full control over our Least of all in the conjugal So Augustine Why do we have intention is sometimes front and if someone to murder but fails to for some that intention is a I said above that intention can give not asking Augustine asking Because the proper order in humans is that the appetites are subject to But intention also includes the object of the And position here is that it does give the But is the intention present in the abstaince or in the act during I just know what not having control over our means in the case of married it would be perhaps better the proper order in humans is that the appetites function I can have a continuous intention that every sexual act be directed toward new life insofar as each sexual act is performed in the proper way I think that is precisely the a result of the But I am not So unreasonable about wanting to have sex with your I I AM NOT lets be clear Andrews Oh is Peregrine Would someone PLEASE ask him how he got a dead guy to give him a blurb for his new Would love to use that time  When I have sex during infertile I am not intending not to have children by means of the Is there away to get Facebook to speak these to me so I can get work And I just know what you mean John well part of proper is the right Intention can only confer species on a moral act in a secondary It seems that the argument is being made is that the sexual act is our fallen necessarily spoiled by concupiscence and is therefore in some sense inherently I think in accord with right that clearer than So I can only have sex at the right time or guilty of some asking about intention is secondary to answering the question about object during a dinner party would imply a defect I said it before and I will say it To say that the marital act is inherently disordered in any way is an did I answer your But when I want to have sex the TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED INN ANY WAY IS AN why you have sex with what is happening make the voices that is called the deal with he thinks all sexual desire is He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of From that it follow obviously that sex during infertile times is at least venially But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is that it seems to me that Daniel thinks all sexual desire is He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of I think the first thing is true I know the second thing is not I agree with But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is Based on her Lauren Ogrodnick is my hype go find some quotes Samantha Cohoe my position is not I just think Paul counsels a certain degree of abstinence in How one gets from there to venial I Augustine doesnt say ALL sexual desire is I find him edifying truly though his sayings be and my position is not I think it is the it should be noted that the conjugal act is sometimes meritorious and without any mortal or venial as when it is directed to the good of procreation and education of a child for the worship of for then it is an act of or when it is performed for the sake of rendering the it is an act of But every virtuous act is if it is performed with But sometimes it is accompanied with venial when one is excited to the matrimonial act by which nevertheless stays within the limits of the that he is content with his wife But sometimes it is performed with mortal as when concupiscence is carried beyond the limits of the for when the husband approaches the wife with the idea that he would just as gladly or more gladly approach another In the first the act of marriage requires no in the second way it obtains a inasmuch as someone consenting to concupiscence toward the wife is not guilty of mortal in the third way there is absolutely no And I am very willing to be corrected about Paul periodic continence for the purpose of prayer if both spouses not exactly the same as counseling a certain degree of abstinence in I could have comments through TAC I would have not been told I participate enough See Translation that was Aquinas on a relevant what is that citation I think all the quiet people in section should have been given and signs to hold up during appropriate in the linked blogpost and to be clear TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN commentary on Corinthians got three minutes until my cut off Come at  One more time for good TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN sorry that was I know but I also think probably position and the all one safe thing to call everyone It could be a new What my the extent of my expertise in moral Peace be back to read Pater probably horrible post This is what I suspect the Fathera and Thomas would say regarding sexual intercourse intentionally carried out during times of every virtuous act is if it is performed with But sometimes it is accompanied with venial when one is excited to the matrimonial act by which nevertheless stays within the limits of the that he is content with his wife that it is excited by Only if that concupiscence is an antecedent Edward what are the   I have to be moving up in the You have been posting and double posting at a heroic pace I still figured out how it could be sinful to abstain from something not required to I am not required to say the rosary it is a good thing to do but there is no sin in not saying I have a feeling several people on here never heard that they participate causing And i just had it all figured I really want to How is it sinful to avoid what is not necessary to do I have three more practical points about Would someone really trust himself to not be motivated by or selfishness when one does pursue the marital act intentionally during times of Chances this is not something most of us should worry too much about at this Most of us probably have to stop cursing our brother in our or or something far more Do not be surprised by the fact that you likely commit hundreds of venial sins a if not Perfection can take a long and one cannot force We must ourselves be by the Unless some magisterial document telling me I have to have sex I never pursue the marital act The Fathers might argue that you have an obligation to humanity and the Church to procreate and educate but dont stop saying the These days it is the mandatory THE and all of my kids were intended unintentionally lolol Scott Weinberg is a PEN My first was born weeks to the day after we got My second was born months months and Is this some sort of Catholic My first took her time and is continuing to take her I will let you guess about inentionallity  long suspected this thread was some kind of subtle virility not My impression as a poet is that TAC has a disordered curriculum where sacred theology is objectified by the Church metaphysics of It was meant to be a comment upon practical inentionallity my pregnancies have run about weeks soooooo SINNER It would seem then that a I know wrong with me  the Krasevac would kill you Lendman It is not your tell me that  even using NFP necessarily to the creation of to that I am a worry employ double effect reasoning But I am a barbarian who is totally going to better my stats on the have to work hard to catch number under dont tell my wife its just a virility That could spell a long spell of unintended non intercourse I I I love how this thread has become dominated by the class of A practical problem with the way NFP is or at least not for That would that the Church approves of contraception in the but disapproves of certain means of I am content with third I have to be after you apparently know everything That in one of the practical points I made above about after years you know Reading the comments in strict succession is a great way to enter into the madness because been married longer than and I just When NFP first became the ordinary magesterium was very clear that it was not encouraged I remember when I was learning about it from Scott and Kimberly Hahn they mentioned how it should be carried out with a kind of that circumstances demand That seems to be in keeping with the And a special thank you to Lauren Ogrodnick for the reminded about the stance on NFP when it first became the it that carrying out with I may be doing it That one must avoid pregnancy but cannot do so with unmitigated continence is a sad That there are circumstances so serious and that one cannot simply have children without care is a sad The fact you afford kids to such an extent that you have to give up bonking for a while I am not promoting women being nice Okay mister two kids in eleven months I AM promoting Baby Factories which are factories staffed by That would be if not ENTIRELY none of my contributions are serious much at John move to Indonesia The point is that if one cannot have children for any it is certainly better to abstain until circumstances are such that they are favorable to luck with What do the babies make in the What do babies usually Fertilizer Knock off Gucci diaper bags The question is whether it is venially sinful to do I think the fathers would say do to the very high probability that it be done with did you just advocate turning babies into fertilizer THIS IS A NEW LOW soylent Wave of babies Teen Girl Squad Teen Girl Squad Well we would only eat the irish are we finished with Or is there more to hahaha there more to New low My video impersonation of the NFP convo The Shooting AKA Dear Sister Emotions run high in this loose homage to the final moment of the season finale of The Featuring Shia Because I would really like to talk about how Aristotle and conception of the soul is essentially the contra This is Shia greatest  SERIOUSLY Hey this is been stuck having this conversation on Facebook with all women most who were pregnant or post If you believe watch The Graph Still  The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the This document had this in particular to say regarding the The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after an element endowed with consciousness and so that the To designate this the Church uses the word the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of Then Josef wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about Thomas appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of took this formulation soul is the form of the and gave in terms of his own a fundamentally new careful scrutiny of both and treatment of the makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the soul is the form of the a new To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several and in different This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily Neither of these seem I argue that it is in light of that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new but his account of the is the right use the Thread to advance your own agenda No one can use the Some merely manifest the Threadness more concretely and Michael Beitia Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel Lendman John Ruplinger Edward Langley JA Escalante Isak Benedict Matthew Peterson Catherine Ryland Samantha Cohoe Ask Isak Looks like we have a new reigning windbag PB is first in our I am happy with a solid third Joel HF Pater Edmund John Boyer Joshua Kenz Sam Rocha Daniel Lauren Ogrodnick Tim Cantu Jody Haaf  Nina Rachele Someone has to keep up with you kids Keep up the good Marina Shea Frank Morris Philip Knuffke Megan Baird Megan Caughron Max Summe Sean Robertson Jason Van Boom Aaron Dunkel Bekah Sims Andrews Whoa For not being involved for the first few days really made up for The Lonely Island DIAPER MONEY Wack For Comedy Week we give you DIAPER MONEY Language Marie Cantu This thread needs more I think that the definition of man as in Aristotelian thought is fundamentally different than substance conjoined to in Thomas  Tom Sundaram Katie Duda Adrw Lng John Kunz Clayton Brockman John Hall Joe Zepeda Emily Norppa Liam Collins Erik Bootsma Aaron Dunkel John Herreid Claire Keeler Lucy Zepeda Aaron Gigliotti Kevin Gallagher Dominique Martin Jeff Neill Although does Aristotle ever say In the soul a Plescartes  Thinking John in the politics he says echon which is usually translated as having my Greek is worse than my so I probably butchered the In the Aquinas approaches humans in the Divine It is the same account but it is more perfectly known through Sacred Since Sacred Theology sees all things proceeding from Pater Edmund now has the title of comment disappointingly close That sounds like a nominal which implies rational But also means in comment Bekah Sims Andrews Pater I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments free to repeat it for The thread was words It can Although it looks like someone might be blocking me How do your wives feel about this of course they are different but Thomas also says that part of essence is his act of existence God where they are the does this an account of the soul existing after Understandable Ed But normally this is because it means it in the sense of at least not letting me see their comments Rather than the what I think my wife likes this thread Existence is NOT part of essence it is according to Being and Essence Hard to think of time did you get to bed last same for angels De Ente says existence is not part of why there is a Otherwise all based on what they would be always in His essence is His act of existing Yes hence the immortality of the because of St Thomas also claims that of essence is his act of not fully as in God There is still a separate act of existence joined to the Same for Direct quote hence the And you would need to determine the way that essentia is being at have to wait until CST and then be waaaay past this To say existence is part of essence sounds vaugely Suarezian to for then form would give at is not the Thomistic It may be the Aristotelian depending on who you Boyer I usually translate them but I have had many an objector suspect my so I tell them here is the it says X see for yourself and make them Daniel I take it you have read and understood Alphonse Liguori on marital relations and found his argument Why Why is desire for your contrary to a virtual intention of I can see objections if NFP are used in fact that is the strongest argument I know against that it seems you claim such a virtual intention and would fall into your in is But still it should be When I can many hours from I will post the argument from Liguori as to why most marital relations are not Was PB banned or did he block Barry for holds that Aristotle acknowledge the real I am not sure what I think about view on this he explicitly has Metaphysics implies he where he states to say is the same as is a Just joshing Joshua I think Bañez has the best take on in particular is like a material cause which receives virtual THAT was the term I was searching for I am fairly certain that Peregrine Scott actually blocked Do I get a prize or A more pleasant facebook experience prize I think he just disappeared he blocked me  Does that work for Or perhaps Facebook is responding to Isak Benedict reporting gotta get my post count up Troll pelt and whatnot But I still feel did report every single picture of his I think taking a break to essentia lineae infinitae est Respondeo essentiam lineae quae finem habere non potest esse quia I cant pretend to argue But I was trying to change the subject from though not wedded to any particular notion of being and I wrote one of the appendices to my thesis on being and Now it is a little less have to look it up The same thesis that Descartes has the hunt been I find it funny that Daniel has been repeatedly called a My in person conversations with him generally involve me implying that a laxist It only answers the real unstated question of the many posts does it take TACers to detect and kill a Too puritan name calling was He EMPHATICALLY denied it many times and thereby padded his post numbers and passed me in the rankings as I do believe I have been excommunicated by Pope Pinhead Is anyone able still to see his If he blocked me that hurts my I wanted to have his I think all of the reporting finally METAPHYSICS ÜBER an existential Thomist just took over he is dead and he is dead and At his head a grass green at his heels a DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD Here is a nit to pick with See if this gets the comment mill TAC should treat logic like Latin and teach it using a formal rather than relying on students gleaning bits and pieces from the they probably locked his account while it gets It appears his account is gone or I know how I feel about If you know logic you put Wittgenstein into Senior Lord knows plenty of room because no church documents ever get read during senior John that would assume we teach the liberal arts as Which we kinda do but not and Grammar would need way more drilling and workbooks if we really taught them as liberal a judgment as they are also trying to do the Great Books thing and the but you are they taught as arts per  You killed I that would be the Great books are great and but the liberal as tools for approaching the great are I understand hard to strike a an epitaph an epitaph Has senior math been codified They could do symbolic logic as part of senior since so He could rise from the grave at any Are all his comments That will make this thread hilariously convoluted more than it currently I comments have to be individually I Ideally a strong base for the trivium is set in High of And a big A but worthy of Sir i would spend the time on more latin instead a la Now all look like King Lear in the I really think he organon should Even if it teach logic particularly dropped a lot on the tutor and the most of the prior analytics and on interpretation is pretty straightforward I agree that the organon should It is And many issues come up which must be dealt with in a more discursive manner truth or lack thereof of future Thomas refers to the organon way too much to go into him without having read a good chunk of  Agreed about the Solemn High Requiem Mass Held For The Spirit Of Vatican II Eye of the Tiber A Solemn High Requiem Mass hard because they be all I one would train in the arts as which would incorporate parts of the organon or some version of it and be more and then study the organon philosophically Summer session for incoming trolls in one An intensive logic Matrix style downloading of kung They should just make freshman listen to Duane Berquist lecture on logic after freshman year he did this last time as deletes the account and then the specter of Bonbon returns ever Est nihil novum sub soli talk about kung For liberal arts without gymnastic would be sort of nuts kung fu means the same as It would be nice if they included Aristotle on generation of It would make people think twice before facilely dismissing his heavy drinking are you saying we have to ride horses like a certain BLOW CRACK YOUR BLOOOOW And much earlier in TNET I said that I left TAC after soph year because I wanted scholastic logic natural taught me in lecture rather than debating the Organon with a bunch of yr old so I agree with you there completely Which beer to it would make a world of difference if TAC just straight up taught John of St Thomas some of us SOME of us knew In and no but certainly kung fu it mean the same as i believe the Greeks called their kung fu no I mean a direct transliteration in to English Or as Michael Beitia calls it rites at the See Translation if TNET were added to the where would it I do believe that although I have taken the troll hide and made some very comfortable long johns with Pope Peregrine may end up making use of this magical serum or cream and return to troll us all They were called drunk in my day It would be the first reading of the Students would either read it all summer or be cramming it the night before term I preferred The until that was And the pit was verboten by the time I Tim TNET is never added to a curriculum and belongs The real question is where does the curriculum belong in nothing compares to going down into the pit Added to the It is self evident that TNET ought to replace the entire they currently call a and Beitia kung fu translates roughly as the creek glistened with the glass of broken like a stained glass temple to excess roughly The current drinking spot think they call it I roughly where the old pit was what does mathematics translate into Trevilla This thread approaches in the sight Kinda like it scream are legion and we will suck you runs his But the geography of the place changed a bit after the floods of same happened in great el floods I heard of were fall the one lane road The Pit was Trevilla Damn I am now am counted among those who go down to the remember trying to hit with or was that just me Editted I only got there in and it was Junior year that the great flood So it would be in January of μαθησες means Anyone else go to the cliffs before they got banned you a The job description must have been back in the Peterson was a sinner I started out as informal prefect of the junior I rose from the And then they crowned me a prefect of the people senior and thus he got tapped by the Gestapo to work for the Man In those two years the pit was an excellent they made him an he couldnt he was is the origin of his TAC Stockholm Syndrome we gone from drinking spots to how Peterson sold out on My favorite drinking spot was room I took like full garbage bags of empty whiskey bottles out after Got some funny looks from some lovely save a prayer for Lefty he only did what he had to and now growing They wanted to convert Little did they know I was going to do that So I took their bait and tried to protect the people the best I And sometimes that meant that those who check in their and yet left it in my would the as I called it when I drank free beer at the Last I heard which is now a parking has been frequented by the police in the last couple years Bet that puts a damper on things never been Admit it a sellout Back then they always had one prefect who was a and Lincoln was a tyrant Where was the pit I was never plucked me out of a pit of even out of the he placed my feet on a rock and established my Psalm The Mountain Goats Psalm The Mountain Goats Psalms by the Mountain Goats Off the Life of the World to Let me know if you  the pit was out the front turn and go into the dirt parking lot and back a little we had pallets for seats until we burned them all  we used to drink under the bridge when it was raining I mighta spent more time there than in not I keep exact I felt I contributed mightily to the common good in that I was a man without a country as my original class was gone and And the place was so small and silly my reputation was already set in and I felt imprisoned in Sad senior But being a prefect had nothing to do with I enjoyed locking campus did your sadness contribute to your Lincoln You were a It was shut down a few weeks into my freshman As I recall a certain smelly despite kept throwning and breaking beer bottles and the ranchers got huffy and then the pronouncement drinking on rancher property was an expellable Some took to federal Some to their But there was great mourning on that that was a keraaazy day I missed The patio was too no Nietzschean The best part of locking up was ignoring all the doors that were perpetually as well as reaching around office window to his which was what I was told to do as we have a key for it or some work study like rich marotti came out onto the patio after the rent his garments actually flew off his and rubbed dirt onto his I divorced my roommate at the end of freshman year when he told me that the Man had asked him to be a prefect best part of locking up is folgers in your hahah meditate on enjoyed locking up LOCKING UP the best part of the library was having leeway as to You were scared of THE JA Why did you fear the strictures most necessary and wholesome for the common  That is roughly where downtown when it comes through the imperfect filter of corruptible man You trust a police which thinks the common good is divisible Like I it was fun because it was a pointless remember those hours have taken from the common hahaha a philosophic absurdity I remember Which is why I am very leery of all the spouting I had a hole in the elbow of a how did that take away from the common a police which thinks you can take a chunk out of the common good is basically the KGB Personally I liked the especially because the long walk back was great for scaring tipsy people with tales of mountain lions and frankly Peterson the Law feared me Those same people want a confessional state that would serve as gigantic Not mentioning any Lauren Ogrodnick probably alien retreaval as long as were waxing nostalgic TNET has failed I asked for beer recommendations and now too The walk back from the rocks was great every once in a some drunk would ride the oil rigs Amazing choices for their thesis How is it possible this thread has These fellows did work last When I went to bed this thread even reached Never too late for I am a big fan of Bear Racer Too late as in no longer at the Oh always next What did you you are in I got a flying dog dog yeah a local brew from MD not sure but it should Same brewery as the Raging Does it have Ralph Steadman illustrations on the All the flying dog beers do Daniel nailed it with the Two Hearted It hurt that named after one of Nick Adams I try to only drink but I have sampled the flying most others Bells is pretty  I only go mile radius Hipster Hipster meaning  generally my rule for coffee my new favorite is by Greenbush brewing in Wisconsin Michael Beitia Facebook life events cannot be false I was never tipsy on the way back but some jerks liked to freak me out about wild animals Are those books approved by the I saw a mountain lion there once on Freaked me out Which is why I found a house to have a drink at regularly instead of the middle of the forest Umm I saw one on campus two days into Christmas venerable is one of would be a great name for a beer Dark and Jolly Pumpkin are the three most local breweries to me Ann What do you think of Ann my favorite local is I like extended play IPA Then this can I like that and this  Now I want a But that probably help bring on How Philosophy is Made Existential Comics This is if different a good beer to spring on the like Daniel Lendman This thread is spoken of in Infinite This is an interesting post on designing online The In Theory of User Behavior Jul The In Theory of User Behavior long believed that the design of your software has in case we need a in the top What has happened to my Someone give me one of those Sump Coffee roasts some amazing And Comet Coffee is one of my favorite coffee shops run into driving from DC two California twice a of very Comet Is it in the Because I go to the County except for Trader I take it you mean Comet Coffee in Ann kinda out of the way one dead posts all slobberin I thought he was still talking about Louis Oakland St MO on the side of just talking about Drinking a nice Guatemalan from Anthology Coffee in Can you hear gunfire from where Surprising number of great coffee shops in I am in South Nothing much here but a little low level street harrassment I Lauren that drinking beer down by the spot by the river right before the campus gate was hazardous for my I tripped and fell down those hills so many Lost my glasses  were you talking about STL or Kind of works for both Now that some can we get a little controversy back in What do you guys think of Communion in the hand versus Communion on the Oh crap Only for consecrated hands Do we have any video yet of the Jesus Montero incident in Boise last Well what about extraordinary For Jesus Montero fights own scout over ice cream sandwich diss Now this is some kind of I think received Communion in my hands ONCE my entire life and I felt so profoundly awkward about it that I never did it It just seems more reverent to receive on the given that my hands are I did when the EM was so short probably have been too tall on my Sometimes I think the National Shrine seeks out midgets to be EMs  Well why is receiving in the hands even allowed Will mentioning NFP bring you Samantha I have donned the troll Peregrine has transmogrified why a totally different person from looked so much like It But DC really is a coffee basically two roasters make coffee for all the local coffee Ceremony and both but it gets I only go there I said better than the Novus Ordo anyhoo Although there are a couple newish places that are Viilante Coffee Roasters in MD and Qualia in DC called the kinda like Once upon a time in there was a great shop that roasted its own I think it was called Sirius It was over by the Van metro Qualia is but the coffee at Room in Petworth is Swing in Del Alexandria is also a good a Communion story for When I was in high we often had Mass said in the because it was the only place large enough to accommodate the student I was a stubborn boy and back then I not only received on the I also knelt to receive rather than this one time we had a bunch of visiting priests and I got in one of their communion I got up knelt and opened my and the priest looked very Then he tried to shove the Host into my and dropped it on the dirty gym He then said picked it up off the stuck it in my mouth and continued to distribute communion as if nothing had I kid you Looks closed I got to check those Dylan I had an SSPX priest stop in front of and keep going at the communion leaving me with my Maybe it was the bright green I think the reason it is allowed had to do with the practice becoming common so they gave it a so that the penalty of sin be on the people for disobeying the needless to never been back was in And Room too far from CUA I even know communion on the tongue was a thing until I was That tells you something about my Is the rock and roll evil or the It is worse than evilest What was the Berquist Something like of you will return to your rooms and play The Rolling Stones or Grateful Dead your Only the one else has Rock and Roll is the And if you play the lyrics of your favorite songs they worship Prince of ordinary vs extraordinary is more like the low mass vs high mass vs solemn high Yes you only get the solemn high once in a but ultimately better Or perhaps prefer Plato and Newton to Aristotle and extraodinary means should be unusual and not the I almost bought one of those cabinet phonographs at an estate Seemed I own any and I already have a The Rock and Roll music will lead one astray from true hylomorphic Beware the Rock and Roll Are you said it should be an option in every parish on Sundays but discussed this before mean but I understand all the old people at the Saturday are attached to their usual form of and unaccustomed to so they can continue to go to the NO am the most foolish of men and the wisdom of men is not in Why do you have you been Well a lack of wisdom was the consequence of listening to rock music Berquist predicted screwed Well I doubt working on his thesis Yes it In my I doubt it has much to do with my lack of not a if that was in reference to we also have I cannot talk about this at length because that could be another lecture all by I will content myself with an It is my conviction and that of many of my colleagues of all of the that there is no philosophy without or there is no philosophy without good The soul must be disposed to the love of the true and the reasonable and there is no way to do that without So the concerts we offer as part of the series are our however to our conviction that good music is necessary to the philosophical The concert series is a small we do not have a great number of Some of will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your and we regret that And we think that if you persist in that behavior you will never become We have had only moderate so in making you aware of that But still we bring it to your and we do this by offering certain concerts in which good music is to please you to relax the tensions in your and to dispose them rightly to the intellectual efforts that are the principal business of your No it was to Ed The Rock and Roll will send you straight to Or so been hope the jocundity of my question pass My answer would be that like first to go by the name me not but rather a lover of For the Isak I did try to give somewhat of an answer to your in the hand question rock and I did but their are many strands that must be woven together to make a is that kind of like the NFP answer I will answer your question once you explain why you insist on being liturgically the Anglican Use is the way Though probably limited and qualified a But if simply taken as then I reference to NFP and in the hand If it is a choice between better and I try to use the better I shied away from using superior and but what I I understand the Communion must be received on the tongue at the Easy getting whiplash from the topic As an I like hell it says the guy who reads Thomas instead of Badiou Have you attended Joel The cherry pick a quote to justify communion on the your Zizek going How is the Anglican use the way forward but the is but really want an answer because had this convo a million times born and raised in a till I your Michael welcome I have one We should start a a bridge for the  why do you study that old dusty Thomas instead of the shiny new exciting The Book of Common prayer is amazing some of the best the English language ever But it the mass of the Maverick Slavoj Plagiarism Proven Malcolm Pollack has the Hats off to our I was unaware that translation and restoration produces an essential but newer and appeals to the hip and with it if it is a bad one main beef is with the insistence on Latin in the the propers are not the same as the readings not wedded to although I find it easier to but the changes are NOT just translation Which liturgy are you talking about not talking about the NO the Tridentine but it could be in English The Anglican Use liturgy at our parish is basically the EF translated into English with a couple Anglicanisms thrown in I get the never been it would be better the little I know about than the NO From the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar to the Old Offertory on through the Last but my older kids say the rosary in so I may be Latin is Ask the exorcists the language Jesus I find it easier to concentrate because I think in but not liturgically a convert and learned the Mass in Latin never actually gone to an ordinate Anglican though I do want to see what it is For day in day out I want anything to do with Thomas no matter how good his to be weird and use Vatican Latin helps build the of the church since no matter where you go you will understand and it will be the same these are not the best but those have been used in the Are you an I get and I actually like Latin liturgies from time to But I think there is wisdom in the Byzantine tradition of translating to the Ad orientem is important for unity Never said Jesus spoke but it is the language of the Roman Joel my family moved to Houston and fell in love with Our Lady of random did you know praying the rosary in Latin has the same relaxation and focus benefits as They did a study on Joel also there are at least two different ordinariate a more and a newer Lukes in DC will be at Immaculate Conception on St in a couple uses the more traditional I think I met your priest at your graduation was in your I The name Bruce Noble ring any I think he was the Parish Administrator at the time Our old pastor had retired and we were waiting for a new one to be Noble is quite an amazing I graduated in take a decently translated of English version of the TLM over a Latin not sure if typical in this and while I think having a Latin liturgy is important for a whole host of it the main reason that I prefer the Homer Simpson Same But Id still prefer it in Latin also tied to it because my sons serve They made at the last nuptial inflation Peterson is going to be throwing around some comments about and fast and furious any minute just ask him if he has a method to determine how high to raise his hand during the responsorial while we are talking about I shouid like to utilize this opportunity to state the conjecture that this wonderful man discovered HOME have to check out sometime Particularly if this traditional is basically an English TLM the odd of I hate I believe in Rock I Still Believe Frank Turner Official Video Official video for Still the new single from Frank taken from the due for Hey talk about I have a policy of not having an opinion on private revelations still an Listen to Frank Turner and it will all be okay If someone claims a my attitude is something like wait and see what read enough greek classics to know that a bad idea to react to And Driverless Cars waka waka waka a great deal of buzz lately about They were the focus of a couple of sessions when I was at Singularity University a couple of years and Google sent one over so we could get a look at The consensus at SU was that they confer so many public benefits that their like to say how dumb I think the idea of using nfp with sorrow I unless you actually are sad that circumstances render it imprudent for you to get Setting aside health what would such circumstances look My situation where another child would probably mean a increase in why not to live in hyattsville we have the lowest rent I could find And a coffee shop about six blocks away we can have as many kids under the age of months here which is what we needed for our two year plan It I imagine I what if ecstatic you What are you supposed to fake How is it dumb to think sad to have to use starting to worry that this thread will turn into a mommy blog dumb to say that anyone using NFP ought to be sad about Oh I have company minutes So be gone shortly been much worse things than I think it means sad as depressed and walking around miserable but because you have to use it there is something in ideal even just slightly circumstances you would not need It seems to me there is a cause for But I think a moral failing to feel happy or relieved that you Kind of like one might regret that a certain friend at a party without letting that prevent you from having a good time at the And I do think there is a lot of work still to be done in order to justify but true in a lot of part of being in what Daniel Lendman calls a patristic a period where a lot of theology is happening without a firm basis in Samantha I trying to drive you away or I find the arguments about NFP both interesting and just doing three things at been driven Just trying to avoid misunderstandings If you get married when as I did and many other TACers youve got a solid plus years of fertility ahead of Unless claiming that everyone should want plus then mandating sorrow at the use of NFP seems a little in the same married at Massive families by I mean I are a special Not everybody can do them and I think those of us who want one should feel sorrow about Put it another most young married mothers are going to be immensely relieved if they are able to space out their children using NFP over the course of the many years of their To expect them to feel sorrow over it is i dumb I guess what thinking is that even a couple with a family too big for them to handle would balk at choosing which not to have But I do see the prudential argument for spacing children People do forget that the end just the generation of children but their formation as YES kinda tough to keep balance in political I get it that we live in a culture that is quite the But hit the There is still a of the best way to space Daniel position seemed to be that the optimal method of is continence through both fertile and infertile BTW your mommy blog comment was totally condescending but I have no right to complain about that at this point so condescend dumb dont agree want to understand NFP proposes a lesser when I say what I mean is or something less kind Daniel just likes to be more Catholic than the pope I wonder if the relationship between a continent couple and a couple is like the relationship between the celibate state of life and the married objectively better but not necessarily better in particular My comment mainly had to do with the reflection that discussions of cloth diapers and NFP bring women out of the woodwork like discussions of sports bring men I still disagree with every premise of argument that continence is better than NFP But I have a habit of being accidentally I once told my that she was rather Trying to cheer her up about the prospect of doing junior math the argument for celibacy married as I understand only holds for christians who are called to a religious according to it seems to the married state Perhaps something similar is true on the other side of the a side from my Please say a prayer for the healing of Bruce Noble from John Henry pray for Why only Christians called to a As was mentioned before Noble is a good friend of my family and a He and his twin brother were Anglican priests from Australia who became priests under Pastoral His died of cancer a while now Bruce And pray for I have to look it up in but the general position heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural I have to look it up in but the general position heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural I have to look it up in but the general position heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural I see how that could translate to the of but that be true even of nonreligious not in an order celibacy good in only as part of a calling to a higher but why would that higher calling include a religious vocation of I it just has to include I would think Agreed It seems to me that the state is meant to be a kind of transition period for a Christian and not an end in for some that period lasts your whole Life is a transition period for But even it seems to me that the order between the celibate and married life differs for the Christian and the And the continent marriage that of Edward the might be a particular calling for Christians and only objectively better in that  You mean if God particularly called you to a celibate marriage it would be better to obey than that Christians in a continent marriage are in an objectively better state of life even if most married Christians attempt to emulate Continent marriage really just a special sort of suggesting not claiming it to be my own So weird to hold it up as an ideal of do you know my Facebook says you are his friend That is a good A sign of that is according to canon marriage indissoluble until I his Matthew McCall I only know him because he was a senior my freshman year at at TAC the name seemed familiar for some reason ah your comment about the single life being a transitional state is probably true when not applied to What you probably mean is that adolescence is transitional to the state of life a person ought to kinda undecided whether there is such a thing as a that consecrated to God in some The other side of the NFP is the people who use NFP and are unreasonably upset when they are unexpectedly to me that indicates a moral Define What thinking is ok to be worried about the financial consequences of the new child or the for the health or other such but if you are upset with having a new child as there is something Just like there would be something wrong if a mother could easily choose which child to keep and which to send or if a couple are we suppose to understand the perpetual virgins as I never but I could be Not really sure at the very least claim that that state is less perfect by nature than the married all the relevant qualifications regarding That certainly may But your claim was regarding the life of the that seems I think most people who are upset are thinking about the attendant difficulties and not the baby And once it seems like you mean adolescence or the life that imitates Singularity would be such by nature only insofar that imitates I wonder where the line what counts as an what I mean is that the pagan who never marries is in a less perfect state of life than his colleague who Do you have One And the attendant difficulties are not manifest to What is less perfect about just trying to find the limits of what being would I think what I said above is a minimal for one his state of life from any other contributions he might make to the is less productive of the perpetuation of the community he lives so he fails that community in some And I do realize that in prudential matters like there going to be a formula that fits all failure is such a strong word for a general Especially considering that it is not the city that places that I think the obligation derives in part from the common good of the city Certainly education know about These are difficult times to have a large Society is in so many ways opposed to And I say this watching my many long time friends and their as well as our This is the principle judging anyone financial reasons are not a real consideration If you were aware of our it is patently manifest that God does But I know many others as Returning to the first that is the real I can hardly begin to show the ways in which this is and it is a struggle such that I am at a loss what to do presently I used to pride myself on my which leads again to number It seems to me ultimately the justification for NFP comes from realizing that marriage is not merely for the generation of children but for their formation as If for some reason a couple really think they can educate the another child then NFP could licitly be Providence does kick We have moved but some how all works out though certainly never to plan at I had it all figured out ten years We are on plan double zed and a teacher by So at least that part of it is very important to now I would never send my kids to public school on the other one HAD to go for a semester last So It was good for a Right now it is definitely not what I had hoped for care should be taken when making statements about deficiencies in state of Statements of this nature tend to reinforce this The creation of while helpful may be extremely harmful talk about category structure and This has been a v been I consider myself deficient and take no offense AND I think being unprejudiced is very sexy sex A lot of that is not a matter of something inherent in but is a misunderstanding of how theoretical categorizations relate to That even though being a priest is a better state of life than being in husband there are almost certainly people who would have been damned if they took orders rather than Gimme an gimme an gimme a P But hasty categorization is a I have tried to only speak with the force my certainty in these matters I know you well enough to know that to be But you seem to deny a stable single life as a state while there are plenty of examples in history and in the saints to say Categorizing single life as simply transitional is what I find That is why I wondered if you meant adolescent life or life in imitation of Single people are single because they are being punished by God lulz not the prosperity gospel So still talking about NFP huh after a brief interlude because God knows their and it is not They would be bad for other people so He keeps them single and not as good at this as Pope Peregrine Just say to all be dominionists and the going to volunteer to take already mostly  only have You really should consider stepping up your duty to the Who has X I Bethea is the only at the last to outdo pb in and in Peregrine has They run his social media accounts BABIES Nutrigrain Ad Nutrigrain Feel perhaps split misspell Bethea will troll the  I think catching me Edword If you are under and not you are a menace to Any word on what happened to Scott got his ass kicked in a bar by a lady If you are over and not an even bigger menace to I meant OOPS Mormon Marriage Madness I will spam this thread with funny videos until Ed gets the various jobs straightened the delegation of division of labor is just a capitalist plot to oppress the poor Fiction is from THE ESPECIALLY Harry Harry Potter Is The Antichrist For more and found footage Fiction is made Made up things are Satan is the Father of Therefore fiction is Therefore fiction is from the The guy in the video obviously read Harry Potter more closely that I I had no clue there was incest and the mormon video was a I grew up in country Sound Time to purge seminar of all that Surprised PB get upset about the smoke of satan in seminar My question is that if equal dollar values indicate some vague sort of in what world is two gallons of gas equivalent to a gallon of Freshman Seminar Oedipus The King Thug Notes Summary and Analysis run from just hit that SUBSCRIBE I was wondering when Thug notes would make an appearance John also abortion in Remember the answer that reading those books will send you right to I took a gallon of milk from your refrigerator but I replaced it with two gallons of have a couple glasses of cold gasoline with them But I drink cold that in  I think I might be a woman trapped inside a menstrual cramps menstrual cramps victim vents Cars are abominable inventions and gas was put on earth by the devil to get us addicted to our fast shiny WAKE UP SHEEPLE do you really think HP is good I think anyone made THAT claim John in all I think HP is very good I think the reading equivalent of I agree with the more extreme theories heard regarding its but I do criticize it on the charge that poor I know the most popular series ever or Wake Up Sheeple this comic occasionally contains strong language may be unsuitable for unusual Look Lewis was heavily involved in the occult before he became protestant and in in his trilogy never got it out of his system very difficult to Charles Williams was member of Ordo Templis Orientalis it Barfield was on his screwy evolution of consciousness was a student of the freakshow anthroposophist Rudolph Steiner yeah read some of his wacky CS Lewis I said it too am getting at the inklings were heavily involved in the occult and their are points in this article worth considering on the negative side of what he I think and I was a big fan but see some problems worth thinking RORATE The fantasy writing of Tolkien was not so fast I think somewhere between the Hunger Games and Eragon Hey hang on wrong with the Eragon was truly only read Hunger so out of my element here Michael I see that Looks like my school bans XKCD from I am a silly article if the one thinking Harry Potter is not just complete crap of course long ago when it first came out I was ambivalent thinking it was bad literature terrible never liked the first chapter and the hack job done on the But chapter one is I have since reread it two I think winning this one For benefit I think the gnosis the magic and the confusion of supernatural and natural are problematic and worth is thanks Edweird wonderful on the Harry Potter is Satanic trash HAHAHA if you want to throw out the Norse Homer and King Arthur Yeah that article on Tolkien is It is trash in every at least on the Very Very Bad Pergrine when you need what is be I really think I just think worth It basically criticises Tolkien by rubrics applicable to a different kind of How the mind absolutely shuts down if you utter a word of disparagement about Potter or That part where the blog author talks about admiring the beautifully carved altar only to discover Rosicrucian made or whatever comes to Beauty is to be found everywhere and always belongs to even if it has come about by means outside the one True check out how quickly we liked that comment guys magic all exquisite and necessary for the proper formation of an imagination in my The main objection is as Aristotle a work of art is to be judged in itself and not according to the knowledge or character of the you sound like Perebonbon Isak John my not shutting totally willing to I just feel like fair you know from the outset what my current opinion It could I would be made better if I do not have the right opinion do we need holistic theosophanic tantric magisterial I just like a good where coming Hey pass that over here will you Also John the author of that blog is not treating Joseph Campbell I am readily able to criticize but he is practically without peer when it comes to comparative The charges of gnosticism would be more appropriate if he was trying to do philosophy or theology I feel like John is preparing this really epic response right now or go to TAC or gone to eat dinner norm saves the interview This is an interview with a girl from MELROSE Thank Norm Macdonald cannot resist giving Dinner sounds Friday afternoon in a That means I just wanted some space from that NFP NFP that retro manichean blabber THANK YOU off to the kids ate all the food again pass perfection without me well guys looks like we have a goal yet another namely that in the Middle Earth of death for man is a sons of Men die and leave the wherefore they are called the or the Death is their the gift of Iluvatar one which as Time wears even the Powers shall Augustine has a section hidden somewhere in the City of God or elsewhere where he talks about how it was good that the Crucufixion remove As far as I can in Tolkien men come around until after what stands as the fight about Harry My position is neither that it is dangerous nor that it is great or even good I find it highly imaginative but abysmally Bottom line entertaining But Plato et had problems with the myths of how they treated of the Works such as Tolkien form the young minds Grimms tales I believe discussed earlier here or maybe been reconsidering take on fairy Was Plato right to have problems with those Harry Potter is the gateway to the JKRowling is thoroughly steeped in YES Isak Indeed I believe he thought the stories of the gods should be not read to the later when it could be rightly The stories of the gods lead to corruption of the I think he was right to have problems with He wanted to kick out the but did say that if anyone could adequately defend them he would let them back Without approaching the question of Plato thought the poets divinely inspired as see I think Aristotle is mostly concerned with the philosophical appropriations of In the he seems perfectly fine with all the various Greek poetic uses of myth only but also I maintain that Homer thought they were bad perhaps the exception of HE SHOWS that I think the Republic should be relied upon as presenting view of a well ordered political IN the he also says the poets That is a GREAT work I read the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey at a very early but they were I graduated slowly to more and more mature versions as my ability to handle such also grew wrong with doing it that please explicate I meant comment about Plato the poets Fiction is a And a good and the best critique of poetry in the sense of helping to understand poetry and how to read it and stories in HOMER does not have the immoral effect today as in the ancient days because we believe in the gods ISAK And the he tells us at the very beginning that the city being built is to be a model of the The most common critique of his account is that he confuses a unity of order with the unity of an I think But Strauss if fiction is about universals is it strictly speaking a about universals like Aristotle says in the poetics The Church has rightly always had a strange relationship theater for On the one hand she recognizes the danger of pretending to be something other than what you are and participating in made up On the other hand she knows very well that telling stories is the most most effective way to tell the Medieval plays took place on the steps of the Edward you may be right about Aristotle way up You believe in the Why We have to as Noone Roman theater was basically Yes ISAK about the Church and theatre and well worth considering what sort of theatre she was concerned Just out of why are you capitalizing my haha if not Too many And getting adjusted to becoming the new troll Does that mean Augustine like Game of Thrones or Game of Thrones hold a candle to Roman Theater  Just to make sure you Figured be I need Augustine to tell me that Game of Thrones is a stinking corpse of a not because of all the Bad Atrocious But Augustine says it so vehemently I liked the prose in the first read any of the I always like reading the Fathers because they hesistate to refer to the Maybe he got lucky in the first I got through and never Saw the first season of the show and never bothered Better things to do like comment for eternity on The I should make a practice of that in my papers should fiction reveal a deeper which Plato would seem to appreciate because of the whole Noble I want you to do that at A fiction primarily should be for the sake of diverting a virtuous man And Chrysostum EXCOMMUNICATED folks for going to the But does anyone care to know the reasons BTW Alban Butler is IMO wrote one of the best works all time in the English Very good He was a polymath and read His Lives are great or Great question I think very As that pompous buffoon Maritain says in the execrable Degrees of Knowledge Edward was that a serious That is a good way to start a physical brawl during About the purpose of Diverting a virtuous man towards like to do it in the presence of Finnis or Grisez  It should be unto As in amusing him But what sorts of things would the virtuous man find HP  You read The Brothers Karamazov for So no need for deeper truth or revealing human nature in ways that stimulate the mind to Depictions of I read Aristotle for not and and Brothers K is not exactly the book I would pick for depictions of Sure those things can but they should be a consequence of the way the primary end is Chaucer for fiction tell a truth by holding the mirror up to as it I think that Edward reads the Fathers primarily for the sick burns and I read TNET because a thousand times better than my feed used to And I  I would love for someone to write History of The You a concise chronicle of its ages and its That sounds like a cultural marxist Zinn I like a little cultural marxism mixed in with my Approaching what sorts of things would the virtuous man find depictions of action in its proper context which make clear the motives of the since pleasure is found in the best operations of faculties Matter of fact I feel like at some point this is going to end in a surreal fashion TNET will awaken and force us all to drop at which point we will have visions of recurring eternity for the rest of our to say it another way unumquodque est talis finis videtur Virtuous men only read about the That rules out a large number of Not what I said Go oooooooon that is born out by the lives of many And yes it does rule out Edward to say that a man would find depictions of Achilles slaughtering Trojans relaxing is to use the word in a manner quite new to Depictions of vice and its folly would count as according to this criteria too I For continent I suppose satire is very useful and amusing But to the truly Satire is also a means of instruction for the incontinent and  dinner time Okay I would love to know what you guys think makes a good I think on the same page about I have to go at the moment but I look forward to returning to my  eat well a bad or mediocre character becoming a good or ok person my favorite kind of noble people undergoing tribulations and temptations and becoming even nobler through them second favorite kind of Are you folks really going to leave the discussion of Homer behind that he deserve better than a passing I think gone to Their bellies are their gods on road When I tuned in to this I was intrigued by something you said about but I find it many crazy comments to search through them maintain that Homer thought they were bad perhaps the exception of HE SHOWS that post about poseidon that poseidon may be the only good god in The rest bad What an interesting thing to I have always viewed Poseidon as playing the satanic role in the so I am intrigued by your What do you find good about Poseidon in the thats In car whew back before While I wait for you to park the car and explain your I will offer some thoughts about the two Zeus and the latter being the former being Here it is helpful to think about four similar sets of the other King Hamlet and Claudius in Duke Senior and Duke Fredrick in As You Like Don Pedro and Don John in Much Ado About and Prospero and Antonio in The In all four plays the benevolent authority is temporarily usurped or thwarted by the unlawful and false authority of the evil yet fraternal This aspect of combined with the eventual dramatic reversal of the evil power or its subjection to the suggests that cosmology is not dualistic or but In other the existence of evil is paradoxically linked to the and plays a role within the pale of a single divine the freedom and sanctification of I see the same principle operating in Zeus is the Heavenly Poseidon is the satanic force who unwittingly serves the divine plan to bring Odysseus home after much suffering and subsequent insight into himself and the divine order of The comparison to trial is just as Satan is permitted by God the Father to inflict pain on the blameless and upright so Zeus allows Poseidon to punish Odysseus is not blameless and in order to bring Odysseus to a state of moral and kill all the  I remember so little of It was so long Even though I read a book of Odyssey and a book of Iliad in Greek about five years Thankfully Homer never grows you forgot to mention the execution of the women servants who had been sleeping with the Whenever I think of I think of that particular phrasing has always stayed fresh in my and the any other piece of those descriptions probably would have been Not with Speaking of how about the description of faithful dog   Ladies and The Thread is closer than ever to achieving for Jeffrey Bond has entered the We are almost out of the I would like to remind you all of the positions available here at World Spirit Act now for the dividends the negation of the negation can I missed another interesting and I could well have everything all upside But with respect to Zeus and I see the former as the Poseidon is the elder of the And though Zeus brags that he could defeat all the gods there are indications that the whole world would split if Poseidon were to fight How did Poseidon hinder At what It is not until he is all alone on the raft at sea that Poseidon him when he is only but a few weeks from his And what does it but to bring him to the by whom he is furnished with more wealth than had he come back with all of his booty from the And who were the peaceful Phaiakians but those most dear to And as I see it they were for returning Odysseus lest lest they become known to the marauding Greeks and they were hidden from the likes of Odysseus And it is Poseidon who urges Ajax memory to save the ships at the It is Zeus and who are the principles of Why did Odysseus hide on the island for seven except for the same reason that by sent by he kept the Greeks from fleeing home idea I help laughing out loud of the Now when Zeus sent he told her to go to the Greek leaders each one and stop she went only to Odysseus and what did she She reminded him of the shame there would be if after ten years they come home empty Thereat Odysseus grabbed sceptre the of and wielded using arguments to urge on the leaders but smashing the lesser men on the just as he would do to Thersites in Thersites who voiced the very opinion of Homer or it seems to that many men should die and few So too Odysseus the interpret the omen opposite its true and so a great though proud city fell and almost not one Greek returned But Odysseus it seems for the same reason would not return namely the shame of having lost every man and the shame of no treasure would he be greeted by his citizens when he came I see Poseidon only giving benefits and keeping safe his own But again what happens upon the but that Odysseus having lost all now finishes off the rest of the flower of the youth of who became corrupt in the long absence of a good and except for the intervention how long does that of Odysseus would be avenged upon Not only does he bring home the ravages of war into his own home and the clanging of the armor of those falling but he corrupts the swineherd best of prince at and father of his who in the end cuts off the arms and legs and gonads of the But the main question does he also corrupt who with his own hands hangs the wicked women of his but what was Ithika in ancient Was it not but a name of a desolate and like of Beowulf and the could we not say of the they were no Under does justice Or rather is it hidden among the Phaiakians dear to Virgil seems to pick up on when Neptune appears like a statesman to calm the And likewise at the end of that book after last as well as almost only words to his and I will show you what it is to be a and proceeds to do Under the I one does But perhaps I am all In case more for Aeneas brings endless war to that under Latinus had known only Saturnial peace for time cried the οἶνοψ πόντος Jeffrey Bond  You get the World Spirit Networking may be forced to consider you a slave from here on always been a and it bother me too The Peregrine has and now all about Zeus and I have to go back to but it makes me happy just seeing this interesting I feel like this epoch of the Thread is warm and shining like the light on glorious Mediterranean heroes of But corruption and death could be just around the with at least guaranteed square out at having achieved enlightenment probably sick of the Matthew I think the Thread serves a practical need an ongoing conversation one could drop in and out of like a I wish a took a screenshot of the notification for Peregrine commenting on a link I  for the Did he disappear or was he discovered to never exist to begin I never figured that one he huffed off by deleting his fb he did the same thing roughly a year ago he has been a figment of the collective unconscious all Get with the absorbed into the thread of the matrix For the I saw that image a lot while running around and settling in for teaching this And given that he still comes up but his page is These are happy Let us discuss Zeus and before the dark times come so Should have gone to you think coming Yes I think comment needs a  is Jesus How very He will come back the way he no but I bet fighting Zuckerberg right and trying to come back through Hades to haunt us But in all we should find a way to make money off this before all seeing eye notices that people want this kind of I love having this rolling thread to return to that people come in and out someone reported there goes my fun for hours Oh John did offer a response to My screen is not keeping up with the abundance of wisdom Just like But what of Poseidon as can we compete with Zuck just take what he gives What of Zeus as a I know how to read that in light of the of she shed a light Helen remembering her husband Menelaus just before she tries to seduce so so so many great one  Did Michael Beitia just reference my characterization of The Thread as the golden chain of the axis mundi shot through all that exists and about which all things turn from thousands of comments I am truly The nature of The Thread is becoming only more and more I also just realized something Has anyone succumbed to Law yet in over have this vision of Peregrine trying to cross the river Styx trying to escape the FB equivalent of the No one better volunteer to be his Megan Baird you just cracked me out loud and everything In response to interesting I cannot agree cannot address all at once the many points he think about He is the Father of Gods and golden which all the gods and men on the other end could not drag down from the heights of Olympus in a divine game of has taken as the first literary reference to the great chain of Everything on Boethius in the Consolation of Philosophy uses this Homeric imagery to talk about the chain of love that binds the cosmos into a It is also in an astonishing anticipation of God the sacrifice of His beloved who cries tears of blood when he must sacrifice his son Sarpedon so that Troy will be rightly punished for its defense of As for note that he ultimately must defer to the will of so Poseidon is clearly not the superior god despite being the elder in so in the elder is never the divine that being a merely human convention that God always Poseidon inflicts pain on Odysseus because Odysseus blinded his Polyphemus the the lord of the formless punishes Odysseus through his many faces on the endless it is Zeus who is behind the punishment since it is his divine plan to bring Odysseus home once he is As for Homer tells us from the beginning that they do not make it home due to their own wild Odysseus is not responsible for the fact that they lose their They eat the cattle of the here of the Garden of are destroyed by I would I crave Michael I think make an admirable Make The Peregrine a bit crossing the will no bring him over safe and I love a defect in me I like the except for the anticipation It always makes me go a big Nietzschean flutter when every stick is a cross in literature safe and sound is Just give him a little smooth voyages do not make for strong A little pain is good for I realize that made me sound a little bit I love the but there is a a power a chaos that it moves and moves the ocean is constantly what I think of when I think of sea deities I think something primally frightening about the οἶνοψ why the sea punish what it speaking of the cross you brought it Augustine rightly said that the cross is not significant because Christ died on but Christ died on it because it was The cross is everywhere in especially in the weaving of Penelope where every vertical and horizontal thread The vertical and horizontal imagery in the Odyssey is almost The early Christians were especially found of the image of Odysseus tied to the mast depicted in Greek art with a horizontal as a presentiment of the Funny you should mention the Michael and the For as the golden chain of Zeus hangs eternally binding the cosmos into the ocean exists in a perpetual state of It stands as the world of things that come to be and pass as the world of to the divine and eternal world represented by the golden Well that was Looks like achieved a true unity of The is at You be the vertical and be the Hey I wanted to be the The rather like this thread ever ever constant drawing people in with an inexpressible The more one the more one is drawn to It may be more like always sucking down and then spewing And must reach up to the great tree that hangs over the whirlpool lest we be lost that comment had me laughing so hard I choked on my That poor never be the Neither will be my vocal To be I brought up the chain as an objection to I clearly see that providence acts in this But as lyric and beautiful as Odysseus tied to a mast may the horrors of the Romans crucifying all the gladiators in the Spartacus revolt is a little less I have short arms I be able to reach the So pretty prepared to be sucked then cling to the mast and keel Odysseus lashed together like a good wanna be and then paddle like mad when the are spewed this is one of the reasons I detest discussing We all bring something to the like take out This is more like playing with literature as opposed to really discussing In any why would you detest take More like a If paying for I want someone else to clean it up fine my metaphorical syllogisms suck World Spirit Networking also offers a maid And we might be able to help you out with your as plus so many food allergies in this take out is almost impossible Syllometagismphorically no really speaking The roasted meats in the Odyssey always make my mouth Ah metagismsyllophorically of course my oldest eat peanuts or I hack Christian references in texts NO ONE defended Harry Really you Harry Potter sucks Homer was just a little bit more By the time I was ready to defend Harry the thread had leaped to another And I got whiplash so that put a damper on typing out You let that stop Megan worry It will everything returns If there were no Christian references in we would have to doubt that nature awaits grace or that reason is perfected by not What we bring with we can find Is it there before we bring less clear Harry Potter is absolutely candy and candy is delicious This bears quoting I Heaviest What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or and said to Neverending as you experience it at and have experienced you must experience it once and also innumerable and there will be nothing new in but every pain and every joy and every thought and every and all the unspeakably small and great in The Thread must come to you and all in the same series and sequence and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the and similarly this and I The eternal of The Thread will ever be turned once and you with you speck of Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your and curse the demon that so Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer are a and never did I hear anything so If that thought acquired power over you as you it would transform and perhaps crush the question with regard to all and you want this Thread once and also for innumerable would lie as the heaviest burden upon your how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and IDK I read it thinking of really tasty candy like chocolate with sea salt and almonds or something all fun and games until your teeth fall out I agree with The Greeks had no excuse since God revealed Himself first in the book of the book of nature is not the book of Homer Homer is the poet of In the Greek word physis first appears in Homer in his description of the Candy is delicious and suitable in its own I enjoy But I also enjoy steak and potatoes and shepherds Oh if only Peregrine could see what just Jeffrey the vast majority of this eternal conversation was spent dancing around the issue of whether a man could come to know God through reason based on presence in I once read a existentialist reduction of the short story Descent into the by relating it to After got nothing left for you guys and but what does is the poet of It means that without the benefit of saw into the nature of things and first showed her to The Odyssey is the strangest So many One i would wish i could take up in a reading We must all meet some place and have that hmm have to think about always subscribed to the literature is a footnote of school of It has to be near Chicago This thread has inspired me to reread Homer again so I can really have a fruitful discussion on I would place myself in that school for Chicago would be Where shall we I prefer the to be The Odyssey always confused me a bit on Nice to know it is still When shall we I tend to prefer whichever of the two reading at the beats Mass gets out around on The Iliad is much I I miss I have family near there and my parents took us to John Cantius quite a few I probably cannot get there until next I hope that works for the rest of Pater Edmund should really get back into this probably be But i would far p refer the I am ever wandering and have little strength to topple a city that more begger than warrior I Mass at the Institute of Christ the then lunch at under the shadow of the University of A Sunday in July I think it is legal to toppke a city even in this permissive We have two takers for a Sunday in July in Hyde Any my parish Jeffrey in and not tied to either pick one If I can make definitely be When I was one of the parishes I attended was an Institute of Christ the King Fantastic I remember from another thread that you were a parishioner Jeffrey there is no The Threadness is and all is The So it is Megan and Is there a way to have FB send us a reminder in May so that we can make plans for I may interest another but that is You know Darrell but of course he would be welcome if he is a lover of  You could always create an event for July sends out periodic he But more of Then he is even more one can never have too much I have no idea how to create an Being new to I can barely write Can you do do local   make you the Michael Beitia whatever  we even have a put it on my No one banned one of the efficient causes of this afraid someone may have I think FB yanked his Or he deleted it himself in This troll hide is so Someone invite John looking forward to breaking bread with you folks at the on Gotta go for I am very grateful to PB for his efficient John Ruplinger I know sure find this intended Homer conversation also this thread is certifiably one perfect dear Look forward to Thank A little late and a dollar but Matthew Peterson mentioned a dislike for how graduates refer to the common Two things Even which seems their notion of the common good is rather is it not good that they are introduced to even using the term in a way that associated with mocking Look at bloggers like common etc these concepts are only ever mentioned in bashing as their To have a institution that uses the term in a serious even if only I think helps start breaking a barrier American conservatives have about such Would it be better if we studied On the Primacy of the Common maybe in Or considering the progenitor status of De would that be intellectual masturbation at Darrell is a very dear friend and similar in temper to worried about the common good when my gnosis was just I should zap you with an outpouring of the world spirit So this thread has over comments WITHOUT and I have sole possession of I am always worried about the common good I am and afraid that you wrote above is spot on I think comment total includes comments you only comments anyways And I think when FB bans it just sorta hides expunge their data like the FWIW not only but Scott accounts are gone I checked that see if he comes back in a couple of days If the thread isnt diversion enough i recommend rereading it with pb invisible  Then we could get the feel for how John Ruplinger read it originally no And I got Jeffrey Bond snagged in the TNET is out of That sounds slightly unpleasant I believe Joshua Kenz promised some Very interested Buy I thought tnet is How can it be and not A much simpler question about the I agree is a conundrum of a and of is the question really about Zeus v or is about how enemy and ally work towards the moral rectification of i have a theory about Yes I But before some the Holy in a decree of the Holy March Eating and drinking even to satiety for pleasure are not provided this does not stand in the way of since any natural appetite can licitly enjoy its own The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial old I included for a I know many who think we must be consciously keeping other ends in I want to marry a I need money for a so I take up an extra gardening I need not be thinking is to marry that for that intention to be behind and informing my It suffices that I have that intention Same too with habitual grace and I need not always be this is for Thee In order to be acting for And when drinking beer I need not always be thinking of the other ends besides I will pull out Liguori here and do the since John Boyer is wherein he even says that one can hope a particular act does not produce a i have a rather warped view of Odysseus that emenates from seeing too much the dark side of especially of So I can little help except to say that Zeus guides the intended harm of actions unto moral as God thwarts the malice of Satan unto I concur with poet of Without no Socrates or All we have are a bunch of Pythagorians and we all no how much fun mathematicians are An excellent point My laziness thanks Foolishly poking in this thread with no are the two propositions above condemned Joshua hence the Condemned in a them Thank you I wonder if I can finish Buffy before the thread runs out of You have three seasons These pretzels are making me And i misread So Bring on Kenz returned to a topic about posts I just reminded is a noble goal sure Daniel Lendman would concur We want a thread see posts anymore FB disappeared him not Marina You like Buffy I would pay to see the exchange The Peregrine had with Sorry for not translating the PAGES of They have to do with the liciety during the time shortly after giving while breast feeding some moralists denied you could have sex From Theologia Book vol tractatus From the stated the licit use of matrimony is consequently For the sake of offspring even though this does not necessarily have to be intended while marital is as long as it is not positively on the sometimes it is even licitly excluded in a simple from lest one is excessively burdened by For the avoidance of the danger of incontinence on own part or that of his Martin Perez from against who reckons this to be venial they cannot sedate sting of the flesh otherwise the aforesaid Dubitatio For the same with which it is licit to contract also dignify the request for The cause of health or because of some other extrinsic Since what is dignified from its own nature and related to one is licitly refered to another end not repugnant to as teaches Martin See Nevertheless to use it for the sake of health alone is probably as Henriquez and Laymann against Martin Perez dubitatio More to follow yeah I started it after a debate with some gentlemen about Spike versus and well here I been a fan for I see this thread is now on not sure what SACRED THEOLOGY and the MAGISTERIUM have to do with these requests to block and cancel your Oh Yes really get into heresy Joshua not to imply you are a Just that the word often gets tossed around NFP and just cause convos I have any arguments for but to say you unite with your husband because breastfeeding naturally or because your or because or whatever is just Just because I say I even believe people thought but they can go eat their Catherine fwiw I am pretty sure you are good the pregnancy thing is especially bad because obviously already intending to since you Aquinas explicitly says you should not give up sex for But others apparently thought you and I think I heard it was a No i think a couple can decide they need to focus on prayer but I think that is a specific call of the Holy Spirit Such as some being asked to fast in a way others to focus on Aloysius Wilson I really know any of you but I love you all for this One of these days I may sit down and spend a day reading the whole We could make a It could pay off our collective student Buzzfeed would love LIS way back they had And if you knew the discipline of the early It is So can you explain these reports about your never heard of Thomas Aquinas College Like the crusades and I went to we study ANY dogmas Excuse me just Now about your I contribute money towards a sounds What the heck it says here I really care what they read or read when they were in not talking to you about the you call me that again and we are done are banned for And the great Eye of Google will be watching you hear See Translation  Is anyone else wondering if Peregrine Scott is going through withdrawal without this Then he may regenerate as someone Trevilla That which nourishes me also destroys The internet is a big Plenty of places to  Well he has a for This the first thread and be his And so I add Paraphrasing what comes There are three ends of essential and intrinsic and accidental and extrinsic and Essential and intrinsic are the mutual handing over of selves with the obligation of rendering the debt and the indissoluble bond Accidental and intrinsic are procreation of children and remedying concupiscence Accidental and extrinsic are any number of reasons why one might a feud is seriously listed by He cites Aquinas Sent IV dist that excluding the essential and intrinsic ends invalidate and make the attempt at marriage likewise would it in the marital However one may exclude the intrinsic accidental ends in marrying and So the question arises here my paraphrase Whether one venially sins who marries principally to remedy The first opinion affirms it is a An this Thomas holds III ad and he is followed by Natalis Ledesma and They prove this by the authority of many holy Again they prove this by although the remedy of concupiscence is even a dignified end of still the primary end is the procreation of whence it is against the order of reason that a secondary end should be chosen over a But the second not less common nor less denies one sins in any One contracting in this manner does not exclude the end of procreating Thus Peter And again with they say this of asserting the same of spouses who copulate principally for sedating The reason for this opinion since matrimony is instituted by not only for the procreation of but also for the remedy of as is proved by the Apostle where he Because of one should have his and she should have her Thomas answers this text Th Suppl ad thus saying anyone intends by the act of matrimony to avoid fornication on the part of his this is not a since this is a certain rendering of the if he intends to avoid fornication in thus there is in that something superfluous and according to this it is a venial neither is marriage instituted for except according to indulgence which concerns venial But with the pardon of such a Doctor opinions I studiously bow down to in the rest of the interpretation of John Chrysostom seems rather more whose words I will offer soon and which is followed by and that of is not undersood of avoiding the fornication of but of And this seems to be born from the context of the same Apostle where he is good for man to not touch but because of fornication any which should have his wife and anywhich her See how the Apostle present a counsel to men to abstain from touching But if they are in danger of lest they fall into he permits not only a but urges saying one should have his And although he adds I say this according to not according to still it advances that for them who are not he only permits them to when he says say to those not married and it is goodfor them to remain just as I am Neither does here import permission for venial for as Pontius says with Salmerone and I would not dare to grant leave for sinning but rather to permit what is Note how when he disagree with he feels the need to list every one else who does over and I will post the including his quoting the Father referred above a little later I hope The Peregrine is obviously NOT in some but I hope somehow the Thread contributed to his and his Perhaps I can put it another In every age the Church has slackened We are pretty pathetic both as to our love of God and our governance of our  Yes I hope he is ok Not so sure anything contributed toward his good but people tried What does it say about me that I drove miles today and still had thought to lug Liguori with I It says great things about I do stuff like that Those are the things that stick in my So maybe not so But we like That is Much interesting stuff in It also seems to confirm something i have have been And i really love Sequitur to the above Now since the Divine Paul recalls his sermon to those who are in danger of he does not only permit but als absolutely exhorts them to saying if they do not contain they ought to For it is better to marry than to be For more truthfully imports exhortation than This is well confirmed from this that the Aposle says in the same where speaking of he not one by for a that you may give yourselves to and return together lest Satan tempt you for your it is permitted for spouses to request the debt for the avoidance of it will be permitted also for the same end to enter Hence John explaining the text of the says that one of the reasons why God instituted marriage was to avoid Behold his words was the reason for And why was it given by Hear what Paul for the avoiding of everyone should have his etc we should avoid lest we be consumed by securing a wife of he conveys to us here its this hence its in this it belongs to those seeking marriage to be helped toward leading a life Thus the holy To the authorities of the Holy Fathers which are the author Petrocorensis answers that therefore the Fathers condemned spouses since they supposed them to follow the impetus of Now in answer to the reason for the contrary namely that it is a disorder to choose the secondary end over the it is answered that it would certainly be a if the primary end were ordered to the but not from two licit ends the secondary is chosen before the accidental and intrinsic ends of this sort procreating offspring or avoiing in order to be must be refered to if not at least virtually or as is commonly handed down by Joshua Kenz what is the name of the text you are quoting and where is it Is it a particular moral manual by addresses such as marrying to avoid to end And the mutandis applies to the use of My summation is it is sinful to subjugate more primary ends to less as if they were ordered to Or to act for a reason repugnant to It is not a sin to for a licit while only intending the other ends habitually or just as in my gardening the intention to marry the girl is not thought of while I contend with fixing the but it underlies my entire Passion and Glories of Mary are wonderful but his little book on Uniformity with Will of God was a Neat anecdote that loved listening to it near his end and didnt realize it was He suffered a lot at the This is from his massive Theologia All passages from the book tractatus cap Dubia I posted sections and then which was referenced by it You can find it if you look really hard through used and rare TAC I think had a single copy in the rare books room thanks The part on strife is interesting Thanks for these look like editions of the Theologia Moralis by Alphonsus de Liguori Theologia Moralis by Alphonsus de Liguori Of the Is there any other translations above were all my AFAIK not published in oh no I mean to imply that there is a secret English version in my back pocket The edition I have is from it is organized into think what I was quoting is volume of what you linked Looks like sells a paperback version of at least the first two Theologia Volumes Available FREE SHIPPING on orders of or Theologia Volumes by What is meamt by to In this section he raises some very explicit questions and be less on irrumatio and other indebita vasa Hall looks like a sort of sort of how was published via I guess that helps make these rare books available I guess these internets are good for something after it no more than with all acts of that they must be referred to as to our final John of course the internet is good for It gave birth to this did it That makes I thought it meant to pray to I did a quick count in my I have approx volumes of just moral theology counting general works that include the If I am not I am fairly certain I can find just about any question address by at least before leaving my It is more comprehensive than Google I Actually make that does OFM was the one who had the chart for calculating the for fasting than those modernist time Are you going to be working as a moral theologian true Joshua of course Jone I own him too John Hall Have you ever read those dreary I tend to find the as to be a swamp of The moralists are fundamentally flawed because of an exaggerated and wrong view of Compare he focuses on conscience is a very minor as it is in Pinckaers recognized this as did Ralph McIrnerny though at least the former ignored the exceptions over the last mostly Thomists that were not writing specifically as moralists and protestant theologians who followed Thomas closely in many areas here is the only real causist that is and that is because his equiprobabilism gives a backdoor seen in for arguments of virtue and natural and But even he does the list the authorities on either and the studies for a bit too much Lamont from the Catholic Institute of Sydney wrote a great called Idols of the Enlightenment In the Thomist He wholesale dismissal of four hundred years of Catholic moral theology perhaps requires some One might ask the general question if moralities of conscience are as bad as all it was possible for the guided as she is by the Holy to go so far wrong for so And one may ask the particular question how the Church could have canonized Alphonsus declared him a and officially taught that his solutions to moral questions were safe to Saint after worked within the framework of moralities of If such moralities are his approach must be and he should not have been given this The answer to the question about Alphonsus is that his approach of by requiring that one begin by determining whether command or freedom should be treated as in allowed reasoning about the actual moral issue to return to moral reflection through the back Partly as a his personal solutions to moral dilemmas were distinguished by good The answer to the question about moralities of conscience in general is that a key component of the casuistic could in fact be made to serve some useful I do recommend that whole articulated nicely the thoughts that had been but not yet through my own reading of the To be I exaggerate a only a Joshua I Thankfully the Protestant casuists got Thomas vide Dictator or which shows Sanderson and Taylor are with none of the legalism of the indeed dreary RC tradition Kelly by the way is Roman Catholic himself Where may one find that Here is btw it Google Drive Pinckaers is kind of a sneak in not letting his readers know that the Protestant casuists got Thomas right and thanks for the is a book for my already too big till I get a place of my own library or a fungible like gunpowder for reloading Outstanding And you are a On a more important Marina Spike is totally better than though I is a better series than Buffy after they made Willow a Which they also did to Buffy in the season because yay The facts revealed in this thread never cease to amaze thanks for the Lamont as as I too will download The Kelly is a worthy but then so is the And if you ever reload your way into an excess of buy some off you so you can turn that cash into the No The real question is who is more with her or Conor actor behind whom is also annoying in Mad I find it apropos that they actually changed reality to get rid of I seen Conor yet Conner is in Angel the spin off of I detest so I do agree that Willow gets annoying in later series but not necessarily due to the more of her willful trampling over the feelings of others and her unbridled the worst in season slightly better in season I am now Answering Q from a ways above on the Friday Night lecture on why separated souls are not it was by John and was later published Aquinas the Augustinian The influence Of St thought upon that of St Thomas Aquinas is well With the exception Also my prediction on how the next round of NFP discussion will first Wendy Irene will join the thread and shed such a luminous light of good sense on the Q that for a moment even Big Angry Daniel and Samantha will but this momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about or they also did to Buffy in the season because yay I did need to know Pater I would like to point out that I really never had a position that I argued other than saying and seems to be what the Scriptures and the Fathers would Timothy Gerard Aloysius you should go to I hope I at least disabused you of the way Scriptures part of your claim We never go to Despite your valiant Pater prediction sounds nice remember that time we agreed about That was nice too Joshua Kenz did you come down on a side of this debate I never really intended to I also remember calling you a Not my proudest to be Was that because I was against everything and not for Or to do with being pro The neither nor but that my describe most of my later teen mine Possibly also my later sure by my later thirties have learned some policy and fairness though i assume the reason that the reason for refraining from conjugal acts while a woman is breastfeeding is that it is generally an infertile That conforms to thesis that woman are baby factories which is what sex is for Breastfeeding is way of a vastly superior way than While it is the role of art to perfect nevertheless art must follow that is not the case when a couple falls prey to the temptation to rationalize the need for their used to be ambivalent but have seen the ill And I have a that Harry Potter is from Heads spun and all it was I wont argue since reason does not prevail on the Also first hand testimony from exorcists should give Way too much wrong with the whole is natures way of does not work My wife exclusively breastfed and she gave birth to our second less than a year after the you probably learn policy and you went to TAC and are an arrogant generally And we have one Fallen nature defies total compliance with universal but the principles are still nature is pretty unreliable about spacing pretty certain nature wants me to have waaaaaay more children than I could handle while retaining my sanity We are often not the best judges in our own That is if I am not NFPers should seek spiritual  In any I would say nature is pretty reliable when it comes to spacing Otherwise we would not call it Exceptions prove the That sounds circular Jeffrey when we had three in diapers at the same and my wife exclusively spacing Andrews Especially in first world countries where nutrition is better so the body have to work too hard to keep both mom and baby Any NFP group out there will show you the naturally occurring spacing And not How Whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by We have to establish that there is it is but there are other factors than just sleeping habits and as Bekah pointed nutrition contribute to the time period it generally the first world folks by any objective are less in need of NFP but who have rationalized it to maintain a certain standard of The NFP groups have an Pater Edmund writes momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about or Not I simply write it like it and most Catholics like reading it for the simple reason that people typically enjoy having their most precious ox For NFP is not natural as in the natural method of spacing babies that God but is instead naturally medicinal caused by a disorder in and as opposed to correcting their culture caused disorder they promote a medicinal bandage mistaking its purpose for being what it is NFP types like reading that the most common way NFP is promoted is But then again on the flip neither do the super sized catholic family promoters like reading that far from being a mark of the their super sized families are likewise a sign of And so I do on occasion infuriate but hopefully I also help them see past But I would hope for better from TACers who spent years in class practicing being wrong and politely taking Catholic Culture and NFP is harmful to a This blog is about Organic Organic Catholicism is at human eminently and back to as in back to our It looks at the world around us according to our which in turn is to look at the world simply that may be true in some but because continence is abused make the method in itself immoral No one has said the method itself is But the method is readily an occasion for judgment about am not judging btw but am concerned with The burden is serious and our society makes it very The culture in profound ways works against which means that one needs good spiritual direction Andrews No a first world And I cannot have children ten months Which my body seems to think I should But then my body also thinks I should have pre eclampsia every And my conscience thinks I should homeschool my So Not about the standard of And Visit any NFP lots on I challenge you to find one person who is practicing it to maintain a standard of concede whatever point making about if concede that breastfeeding very often gives an extremely short space or even no space at all between pregnancies How do you concede a point that is categorized as point Mostly I mean I will stop trying to argue with which I would like to do since it seem   It is true that nature acts always or for the most but it is also true that art perfects What is further true is that when evaluating moral circumstances one is always dealing with particulars and never universals often break down in their This is why it is helpful to have a Spiritual adivsor in such   As for art perfecting that art must still follow take its bearings from Art cannot establish an end apart from the I cannot prove that standard of living is a cause for folks misusing nor can the contrary be But I can look in my own and listen to the concerns of others expressing what is in and then realize that maintaining a certain standard of living is a great To flat out deny that this is a temptation for NFPers seems mistaken given my admittedly limited experience on this as far as standard of living here in the greater Chicago area I could live in less expensive but I have an obligation not only to produce but to keep them safe and to educate the must higher cost of living is for the sake of the children it is prima facie at least implausible that anyone who takes the Catholic Church seriously enough to exclusively use a rather unreliable and in any case somewhat onerous method like NFP is in it to maintain a consumerist lifestyle The main standard of living I want to is one where not losing my mind and all my hair from stress I cannot judge your case nor anyone unless they set it before me in all its particulars and ask me to help them discern So I am merely noting that maintaining a certain standard of living is a temptation for Not a terribly controversial I Andrews I have moved from being dismayed to alarmed over the years at how many people assume Catholics trying to live their vocation according to Church teaching are assumed to have weak or selfish Rather than assuming they are making the choices they are enlightened by the grace of the sacrament of NFP is If you want to have a cushy and your primary not going to use NFP to get but that standard of can easily be just Andrews Maintaining a certain standard of does that And how is this particular temptation unique to Especially when not even convinced by the arguments against ABC anyway Joshua Kenz reading on my phone makes jumping around in the thread Could you recap the Liguori and the condemnation thingy for I just want to leave my mansion in the gated take the top down on my bentely and buy designer clothes for my Is that so Perhaps the overall point in all of is that one must be very careful how one phrases the sorts of universals that your are The temperature has finally dropped below so off for a run to help maintain my decadent standard of See Must run to the post office to maintain my very low standard of but will happily return to this when I My point would be even though NFP may be used its still better than and can still be a means to points to some of the underlying problem which is the main cause for hair loss and is not caused by the nature of too closely spaced kids per The culture is anti The anxiety is not normal but caused by extrinsic I suppose I could tone my down a All mothers should have household what older children are for good my oldest is the perfect Woke up to a nice fresh pot of coffee this morning My kids fall woefully short as servants which is probably the fault of the my oldest used to get up with the youngest and change his diaper before anyone else got then make Raise said it and I will say it I have a hard time when we compare ourselves today to those of say my great grandparents who raised ten kids on what they grew on the almost like when we complain we have so much to do and so little time and yet we have machines that wash our clothes and out Cost of living has gone but we do pay significantly less percentage of our budget wise for food and with regards to the natural it really does depend on the I had more But pregnancy brain killed Oh Also oftentimes God knows what is I read an article by someone husband had cancer so they decided to avoid They got pregnant anyways and it was the best thing that happened because it have them else to focus God give you more than you can though he may try to test your patience and trust no my oldest is is your oldest a  was thank heavens really Doing something right AND to add to point the hardest time is the firsu three in It actually gets easier after that dont tell my wife that not I claim credit for nothing  also My daughter is the least useful of the older the youngest of the I must just have bad examples of raising boys well Out of the city in the country the natural order is more In I find it very dangerous and unprofitable to tell good Christian mothers what they should or should not Circumstances vary too I started this whole cancerous NFP I But my interests were purely even if people are the fact that they care about that at all is a huge improvement over the status and will surely lead them to further This is not the battle we need to Pater Edmund is the ultimate Did anyone see him pop throw that fiery cocktail and Who is this and what has he done with Daniel Venial not a big No need to tell others what to Well we could do a better job teaching the just and serious reasons to avoid instead of teaching it as a simple alternative to I wake up and the convo is still have dirty indeed as if this thread testimony Of course after I still figured out how not to tell a certain Maureen Hara did i say that what to you have no hardship has tempered me from what I was in my fiery In In one ought not to try to root out every habitual venial sin all at This is almost always too much and often very venial sins are very Lauren I think that is but I also think that our catechesis and evangelization need to acknowledge that we live in a I would rather people abuse NFP than be pushed away from the Church Andrews My experience says that those who use NFP tend to be drawn closer to the Self sacrifice will do NFP is hard enough that those who might it more than likely will as your motivations for continuing to deny yourself are strongest when you know it is for the John I am amazed at your willingness to state what the casue of my hair loss is with such As a matter of you are quite I do pretty well once my babies are but pregnancy ruins Unfortunately no number of servants can fix I have actually not lost my That was sort of a figure of i And i specify the causes so might really heat things But the culture is anti Bearing children is moreso for some women but our society adds so many so few That is Andrews You need to keep in bearing the first Of an minimum eighteen year A commitment to educating them and forming them with love and i was just responding to very I have changed my profile picture to one which proves I still have Because I am One of the venial sins I should be more concerned about than anything to do with I am a little saddened at the fact that my Willow meme above has been so what is Top the Samantha expanded my horrible into an essay which you can read on google Have I mentioned that I think it admirable that you are against contraception even though as a Protestant you see the argument from infallible authority against Because I do think it Natures as Contraception as Lying Google Docs If this conversation is dying we could always talk about the War of Northern or something similarly Ford Chevy discuss How about the southern rebellion which Leviathan would you fight for score years I guess I will actually read at the playground now Still suspect it is probably horrible but thanks for your kindness got to clear up some thoughts about Harry Potter though it may either born or No special gnosis it is a in the book that needs honing like any other natural talent now consider another popular movie though it may either born or no special gnosis it is a in the series that needs special like any other natural hence school I hear rants against HP but not is it simply the word Call them mutants instead and you have the same result how can I refuse an invitation from Pater Although even you cannot make me read quite all the previous To the analogy fails it seems or I Does thwarting procreation correspond to avoiding unjust death the case of Or what is being Apropos of the is it OK to have marital I think helpful to remember that the marriage union of its sort of union which is ordered to children bringing them to being and raising them to be good procreation and And to remember that it is good for children for their parents to be engaging in marital relations even at infertile by uniting the is not but secondarily procreative because it promotes good circumstances for the education the broad of the Any time talking about the unitive in going to be referred to procreative because precisely the kind of unity you get in marriage you notice that I used When Smith Goes to filibustering to prove a a sadly forgotten The Constitution of the United We the People of the United in Order to form a more perfect establish insure domestic provide for the common promote the general and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United which shall consist of a Senate and House of The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five and been seven Years a Citizen of the United and who shall when be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this according to their respective which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free including those bound to Service for a Term of and excluding Indians not three fifths of all other The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United and within every subsequent Term of ten in such Manner as they shall by Law The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty but each State shall have at Least one and until such enumeration shall be the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse Massachusetts and Providence Plantations Connecticut New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia North Carolina South Carolina and Georgia When vacancies happen in the Representation from any the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other and shall have the sole Power of The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each chosen by the Legislature for six and each Senator shall have one Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first they shall be divided as equally as may be into three The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth so that one third may be chosen every second and if Vacancies happen by or during the Recess of the Legislature of any the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the which shall then fill such No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty and been nine Years a Citizen of the United and who shall when be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the but shall have no unless they be equally The Senate shall chuse their other and also a President pro in the Absence of the Vice or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all When sitting for that they shall be on Oath or When the President of the United States is the Chief Justice shall And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of Trust or Profit under the United but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Judgment and according to The Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such except as to the Places of chusing The Congress shall assemble at least once in every and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in unless they shall by Law appoint a different Each House shall be the Judge of the Returns and Qualifications of its own and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent in such and under such Penalties as each House may Each House may determine the Rules of its punish its Members for disorderly with the Concurrence of two expel a Each House shall keep a Journal of its and from time to time publish the excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question at the Desire of one fifth of those be entered on the Neither during the Session of without the Consent of the adjourn for more than three nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be of that that kind of union a union ordered to procreation education of is perfected by other kinds of such as charity and But they are not the essence of but rather something from the outside needed to make it the best it can something like planting What makes it a club is the members get together to plant They could hate each other and still be a But be a really good club if they are friends and love each other with why is the never I have mostly forgot and dont remember its insights or what virtues it promotes or how it makes more reasonable the once called the mad woman of the house in more but no kids go out to buy or search online a how to be a mutant in HP you a These mashed potatoes are so Caesar Romero was is tall in the category of or in filibustering is somewhat less impressive when you can cut and I think all just treading water until Pope Bonbon comes back and what are the other effects on youth from reading HP again and again read HP Do not the main protagonists not only go unpunished but even prevail by breaking rules What are the differences in character among the various adherents to different Does any one else notice how Baconian the characters are in their attitude of dominance over nature remember Bacon commended study of the occult arts in his New irl one Can I just before I go off to read Pater probably horrible that anyone who reads HP and then decides they would like to become a witch is a bad which is not JK totally Burn them except Ryan apparently FB has limits to the length of it actually took an hour to get it all formatted to fit into little I even do one article at a unfortunately the subtlety in my argument was so BLAME the misformed kids who nice Except for the part where Dumbledore rewards Neville for standing up to his friends when those friends were going to do something they supposed to I sadly missed the original Harry Potter but will just say that all the arguments against Harry Potter ever heard have been so I assume the ones here were I think we have larger battles to fight than ones over Harry I personally doubt that such kids but if they then their problems are not JK I blame their public etc those who take away from HP rules are existence would need to be proven since that is clearly not the are also very bad not readers of bad its interesting there is one blog dedicated to the occult in society by an atheist who demonstrates that influence of He argued against kids reading it without parental Noteworthy is that his interest lead him to join an occult society that he didnt see as His own wife was led to witchcraft because of her love of But for them it was ok being their own Yet they wouldnt let their kids read it bc they recognized the unwitting it is interesting that there are crazy people in the I Harry Potter Not falling for Adrw Lng i only became belligerent on the topic when i was alarmed at how catholic parents would more zealously defend HP than the Before which i was but I have seen much so it effect you or your kids in any That is good but why so zealous a defense of what is at best amusement or candy as several Like I a huge crossover with but sub for are pretty as is I keep saying it is BUt it does offer talking points as to why might make or why it okay to do bad things even if the end is to be sought the more important thing is to TALK to you children about what regardless of what it is totally It is a candy of which I am particularly You should see what happens if you attack I prefer salty snacks to sweet Chocolate is I thought you were my prefer tortilla chips and salsa any day of the Plus I like my snacking with and that more includes the salty because as Thomas it is the moisture and the heat which produces the I agree that the Bible is superior to Harry the Bible has lots of sex in it Harry Potter is not in the HP cycle is a trope for liberal and is technocratized The rest of it is just typical YA book plot There is some clever candy that is If it were complete crap none would defend it i am not so sure I am old enough to remember when churches had their undies all up in a knot over Dungeons and so seen this before I defend it from just claims of being mind But I think it is worse to accuse something of being more than it is read or HP and it is badly written derivative always amazed the books have such intelligent But the criticisms than that it is crap writing and lazy uninspired are even Sorry Samantha not defending it against anything other than charges of being gateway into Evil like I its mostly just typical YA stuff Joel No In the Holy Office condemned a series of proposition which included that idea that you could eat solely for as long as it against and have marital relations solely for The upshot is that either is at least venially sinful Liguori argues that marrying or having marital relations for the sake of secondary ends remedying or even external and accidental ends is not and he argues it disorder the because choosing to do X for a licit end does not necessarily means subordinating a higher end to that Nor does it mean excluding that higher just as with the intention to direct the act toward God need not be consciously made at all but can be virtually He even argues in grave one may even have a certain a hope if you that this act of relations will not produce I was trying to address Big is probably venially Liguori recognizes that the and in an attenuated way Thomas holds so he goes at greater lengths than normal pointing out that he bows down to Thomas as an is the verb to argue the contrary relying on another Father and reason I think he So if a husband or wife is in this because of toward requesting the that is no as long as they do not will or act in a way repugnant to the more primary ends of marriage I just read Pater excellent essay entitled as Contraception as He persuasively argues that lying is to equivocation as contraception is to This analogy is very helpful to our After equivocation is not the truth telling NFP cannot be the complete openness to new life Equivocation is tricky So too is I may well be misinterpreting the underlying assumptions of some of the comments made on this but some seem to be arguing as if NFP is the norm because nature establish a standard and so who know better for must do In this context it is worth thinking about Pater claim that a false view of nature underlies the contraceptive I think he is I think I want to be Elfstar anymore right but being Elfstar in D and D lead to you being Sepulchrus the High Priest of in real life not high literature by any so I agree with most of I disagree that HP is a portal into the I strongly believe that anyone claiming that HP led them into the occult is being somewhat thinking there were probably other contributing any opportunity to reference a Chick Tract I think the net effect of HP on kids is to increase interest in learning Latin tempted to go find that one Chick tract against dungeons and JA Dark Dungeons Debbie thought playing Dungeons and Dragons was it destroyed her The moral principle of imposing will upon nature to what ends we will pervades the Potter world But what of conforming mind and will to not What of leisurely things is absent in Potter that is present in Are the muggle world and that of Hogworts sides of a there you go Joel chocolate covered I just ate some peanut breakfast of champions Joshua so you think Ligouri meshes with the John an excellent but I think Rowling makes it clear that familial and friendly love is the only real sort of the whole point of Harry vs Tom not in favor of instrumentalism of the sort talking about not a Baconian parable As a Latin I can absolutely attest that the effect of Harry Potter in encouraging kids to learn Latin is real dont it is a gateway to the Are the exorcists What is the I think the claim is that HP interest in the but it is the that is the interest in the not HP How does this fit in with Well when NFP is used to avoid there is a certain affection that this act will not produce a To have this hope or and not in rejecting the end of procreation I think is the tricky Such as dieting and fasting both can involve abstaining from yet differ specifically in their object and not just by abstinence in NFP differs objectively from abstinence for some other The desire not to have children produced through these acts of marital intercourse is present in those so it is not the but the having sex in the context of avoidance that raises the I think if we combine Liguori and Langley is just echoing De we can say The ends of marriage must be at least in the marital This includes It need not be The sort of act that it without employing means to frustrate these ends in the includes as it were by default a procreative end in sterile as even a blind eye is ordered to The user of clearly does not intend the procreative in THIS Hw can he or she both virtually intend but actually not want it to Well if the end is more than physical but is rather the procreation and education of children then one can still intend that even in this while hoping that it will not produce yet another or even risk to the life from pregnancy does not REQUIRE the use of What we are really saying is for the sake of the other ends of sex libido for one may hope not to produce another as long as that and hence the use of proceed for the sake of the higher ends of considered more completely outside of the marital it remains morally licit to even intend children in or even at risk of since that it a natural and primary end of the and there can be no moral necessity to refer it to another end that is only lower or virtually contained in that My understanding is that if the act of sex itself is a proximate danger to then it is immoral to have If it is a remote wife has the endangered the is not but may do so for just either for himself or his Not sure how a risk of a risky pregnancy fits yes I it would not be for that He is basically arguing the other ends can be virtually Klein thought that alchemy and magic were twins at birth but one was I dont That is fair I believe in Andrews Harry Potter and just to keep the thread is there a more reputable exorcist than Amorth condemning I say this because Amorth is notoriously full of If all the stories he says are he acts against the discipline on exorcism also must be exorcising multiple people at once all the are a lot of issues with his That I detest I read part of the first book and tossed it was Not morally but literary I am a snob like that I think Pater analogy between equivocation and NFP fails because the relationship of speech to truth telling the same as the to Every act of speech should be not every act of sex needs to be procreative Not every act of sex even could be as every act of speech be truthful all analogies are come up with a more substantive objection me Joshua but I was roped into the And i have first hand testimony i think though exorcists speak with caution and dont reveal they are That said i am convinced of the i dont know whether he was present at the But other matters he did testify to convinced me To I never said it was a parable for Marriage and sex as a whole need to be ordered to procreation as generating educating but to say that every act of sex needs to be ordered to procreation leads to some absurd conclusions and ignores all the other goods of kinda surreal to have parallel discussions of NFP and Harry Potter and likes and that mb failed to follow my distinction and the paucity of response and the number of questions Tis strange that an overpopular and well grounded opinion is so strongly so weakly of comments Kick in the Head New Riders of the Purple Sage just found that went to the college of but the smoke really drove me not sure what referring But is my laundry folding Been in and out being next to a Breaking out the morning coffee at EST as not sure what distinction you wanted me to follow magic is in the real mutants are Kids do live out theis HP That is I believe in If you mean in different Even if magic actually there are still various Satanical groups that claim to practice and not mutants Stan Superhumans Video Schedule Save But not sure how different that is from the argument read stories about war because they might try to live out their in real changed to Oh I believe in magic alright I probably going to Do You Believe In Magic The Spoonful Do you believe in magic in a ayoung heart How Kids read stories that anthropomorphize animals because try to talk to badgers by i mean what God allows the demons to do to seduce practitioners of any variety of occult art often denied as such activity by the Pater choice of comparing lying to artificial birth control is unfortunate because it can have the opposite effect of what he intends because common experience of life teaches us that saying what we know is not is virtually intrinsic to our nature as political and thus in turn his comparison can be seen as a defense of artificial birth Catholic Culture and The proof of Catholic social theory is Does it work at This blog is about Organic Organic Catholicism is at human eminently and back to as in back to our It looks at the world around us according to our which in turn is to look at the world simply I think a widespread I think it takes a special sort of megalomania to want to power over but Edward war is not intrisically Nor is every war novel megalomania is pretty common Narcissism moreso FB That was the not sufficient to argue that they did X because they read about it in a Just as silly to say that went on a shooting spree because he read a violent so it could be silly to say that got involved in satanism because he read sure those statements could point out a kind of but only in the way getting in a car is a cause of dying in a car that being we have first person shooter video games in my but by power over I mean what is the practical aim of modern This is commonly Not so much that is not the same as individual instantaneous power over like wave a magic wand and my room is Flying on a broom is different from flying on a Is there really evidence of possession only from reading Harry Because that seems a very susceptible person impossible there have to be willful assent from a Baptized broom flying is more can get a wisk broom for like But a child that spends his days watching war movier and dreaming about does it not influence his later Not always of But who would deny How Mary is she Berquist used to say that flying is because the whole man is moved but not part by but only because musicals are Well the books were before the movie Musicals exist outside of time Mary Poppins the free encyclopedia Mary Poppins is the lead character in a series of motion was violent in relation to gravity and levity have the Superman moves by pure act of will like a baseball that never demonic I mean come ERGO why Superman recline on his back and while I am I am not taking this very In all seriousness TAC is next door to the occult capital of the Most of it is just but I knew of some really dark We even had a witch steal a host from the TLM in Ventura for use in a black mass James Layne tried chasing her That is even if black Masses were a myth of literature in the I know dang well they happen in reality So there you have fiction inspiring Ojai delenda est hahhaha I agree mb there is a difference though i think the underlying desire some is the capital of the motion was not I always assumed it was gas powered by his explains how he could even propel in space Silent but deadly of course Superman is probably if only because it seems to be an attempt to make Nietzscheism acceptable to children its nothing to with Nietzsche returned from attending to some duties intending to talk about It appears the moved will not but then I really seen any Superman I find an invulnerable person that needs Deus ex Machina countermeasures to be boring the name is via totally superficial appropriation of the term Superman is plenty but dont blame Fritz for it up and away it has Wendy the topic everything returns eventually for does Superman use There is no fore or after in all things have are and will post about NFP if you will maybe those tights just reduce his motility so he has no need of NFP The Ojai Valley Is it possible a place where everyone is all is right with the Hold since Superman is an not actually is Lois Lane engaging in that worst of unnatural reproductive cells are sensitive to Joshua a topic for a medieval disputation the original Superman comics did not have him was just able to jump real hence the whole over buildings in a single was only the later Superman that suddenly could fly Oh my geeky side I showing itself St Joseph of Cupertino supposedly flew all over I suppose the comparison would involve considering whether or not the generation of hybrids like mules would be against no tights though So can a man wear tights as a way of regulating the number of children so lugging the Latin Liguori love geeky in principle Joshua wonder what you mean when you say that lying is intrinsic to our nature as political No matter how common it is to it remains unnatural to do It is likewise unnatural to use artificial birth control even if it is commonly oh asking whether its licit Yep I think for wearing tights is analogous to if it doesnt interfere with the why I assume you take them off have an opening for the This is treading into dangerous territory here It would depend on Why are you wearing Superman all the disgusting deviancy in the can be useful for explaining two of the properties of the resurrected impassibility and and glorious tights and underwear OUTSIDE of tights cape would be glory too I guess extra glory glory upon glory men in tights my daughter laughs at this its her favourite film glorious gloriful Just had three bottles of wine show up at my door unexpectedly have it in me to send them maybe the underwear on the outside is what regulates the temperature I want to hear more about capitol of the what I was going to say relating to note that ecological breastfeeding is not effective as birth but should not be simply Women who practice ecological breastfeeding average months of suppression of the hormonal Note also that ecological breastfeeding is NOT simply exclusive but includes the breastfeeding other liquid or solid from any other source enters the for the first six months of your baby at the use bottles and sleep with your baby for night sleep with your baby for daily nap frequently day and night and avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your corduroy jumpers Be hahaha yes That not all women have the same suppression of many of my But that mean that we automatically have to presume the need for NFP for anyone who have the more average google it is a label I think this is something Ghost Hunter guy came up with to boost book sales Ghost TAC Ojai area the Promised Land surrounding countries that in two TAC is Hogworts What does your bride think of a few hippies with spirit catcher macrames do not an occult capitol make Wendy I think Bernadette has learned to ignore my comments about Very I told my kids that TAC was but with a more outdated doctrine of physics Perfection on that level is and Ojai by the delivers on the quirky The Ojai you has long drawn people yearning to go magnetic center of the earth is the Los Angeles Times wrote in people come to reach the God centers in A partial list of the groups that have called it Church of Life Divine Sufi Vortex Science of the Siddha Yoga Church Universal and Sathya Sai On top of you have a layer of hippies and ceramist Beatrice called the Mama of in where she was a follower of resident Jiddu thought by some to be the next with Aldous Huxley and founded the Happy Valley School here in one of at least private schools in the Then a thin layer of celebrity Anthony Bill Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche all have houses the When Aristotelianism is be able to go around telling people that we were Aristotelians before Aristotle was a that species of Aristotelianism might not ever be back recourse to angels as the motive force behind baseballs is done for I think Ojai is a nexus of and that sometimes leads to darker in all seriousness my maternal uncle was a warlock in did some dark he renounced it as the last act he did before Was in a woke renounced and then went back into the coma and It was a very surreal experience I it probably is true in some define sleep with your baby for daily nap frequently day and night and avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your three in particular are hilariously impractical for mothers of more than one child Maybe what newton means by inertia is really angels being kept busy hahahaha sleep when my baby sleeps hahahaha animal and some details I do not wish to discuss gentlemen we need to step back at this point and allow this matriarchomachy plenty of room yeah the dryer is probably no rest for the I was done for a wedding very soon starting to sound like the reports of class on that part of the Politics where Aristotle talks about was the only class that semester I missed I know what you I have But just because it work for some people mean we should disregard it for And in for some the nap is not necessary for suppression of regularly nap with my but my children are about years just because I largely ecologically breastfeed and because I got the genes from my side and not my side many of my aunts and cousins have far less suppression of fertility from it works for some happily grant If those practicing ecological breastfeeding average months of suppression of the hormonal then children would be naturally spaced months two Looks like nature has a pretty good system in As I some people have that long of spacing some have Got But it establishes a kind of norm whereby nature spaces I think The Occult but Ojai is a pretty legit doorway to the spirit Morgan I Since whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by it is correct to say that breastfeeding is way to space Exceptions do not undermine that Let me say that I think there are many good potential reasons for and that certainty for another pregnancy would be way too exhausting for the mother can be one such I also think that the decision belongs to the precisely because a prudential and prudential decisions are about and so the people who best know the particulars are the ones who makes the like the decision to go to the decisions belongs to the because the one who best knows the BUT some confuse the responsibility for the with being able to get the decision The president is the only one to whom the decision to go to war but he can make a and the duty of others to think about what sort of things make war justified AND whether in a particular case those conditions so that they can help the president make the There is a school of thought about NFP that the couple makes the decision and no one can have any opinion about whether certain kinds of reasons for that decision are This square with what heard from the Church speaks of reasons needed for Agreed on It is the but they can the analogy to for the American regime it is Congress that is supposed to make the declaration perhaps a foolish constitutional principle given your correct account of Andrews Sure anyone can But not our place to pass judgment on anyone And pretty darn hard to come up with a universal list of acceptable Be careful not to pass judgment on people you think may be passing judgment on anyone passing judgment on an motives is not the same thing as saying kind of motive is a valid reason for especially since the Church has done exactly and done so for our own when has the Church done What motives have been called out as Just as saying murder is wrong is not the same as saying that some individual person committed a mortal sin when they killed Perhaps they had invincible ignorance on the I judge their but I do judge that the act of murder is in itself right I was making an argument for it being OK to even start talking about valid or invalid We do need to be careful that in avoiding we avoid developing should be used for serious are serious you think they of course after considered how can I have considered thought if no one will discuss it for fear of judging just and serious as Wendy cited what are grave just and serious pretty but does it need to be all three and like my need to save up for a water jet pack before we conceive our next that not a specific list of But it does give us some parameters as just war theory I except without anything more specific hard to know what a reason might The wonderful thing about it is that it is a rough and ready rule with built in Most people abstain for the sake of a water jet Most what supposed to figure say that gravity and seriousness are all about You need a proportionate reason to practice Proportionate to To the suspension of the ordinary practice of a vocation to which vowed your whole heard lots of people talk about their me not so grave reasons and they often end up with child And none of them have water jet while I think it just or grave are very different think one can avoid children for merely a I think it must be requires less i liked your last because I think very well not because sure I agree with is one of the phrases as I But since in this case talking about major the suspension the ordinary practice of a vowed a reason will also be a My jumping on the table during dinner is a reason for sending him to his but not a reason for my chopping his head looks like we both have enter yep might another way of putting it be that a just reason would need to be proportionate to the sacrifice involved in periodic Or do you mean something Andrews But the If I think irresponsible to have a child while living on state or without health I will avoid But I say anyone else is wrong for getting pregnant while using food their Everyone likes to throw out vacations or toys as poor reasons to but be honest not the motivations for those using if it was about material possessions not going to use Those Catholics who use nfp are doing so as part of their path to And I see how anyone can come up with a universal list of right and wrong Because what is just to my family necessarily just to the Andrews Just cause is good enough for the good enough for But what does that What does the word Andrews What is What I owe my husband and what I owe my I think on it means what most people willing to abstain rather than have sex think and say it Andrews And where God will guide families if different So will be called to some will be called to have children closely going to And that is unique to each The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of He shall hold his Office during the Term of four together with the Vice chosen for the same be as follows Each State shall in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may a Number of equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the but no Senator or or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United shall be appointed an The Electors shall meet in their respective and vote by Ballot for two of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted and of the Number of Votes for which List they shall sign and and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United directed to the President of the The President of the Senate in the Presence of the Senate and House of open all the and the Votes shall then be The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors and if there be more than one who have such and have an equal Number of then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for and if no Person have a then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the But in chusing the the Votes shall be taken by the Representation from each State having one A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a In every after the Choice of the the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice But if there should remain two or more who have equal the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the and the Day on which they shall give their which Day shall be the same throughout the United No Person except a natural born or a Citizen of the United at the time of the Adoption of this shall be eligible to the Office of neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United In Case of the Removal of the President from or of his or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said the Same shall devolve on the Vice and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Resignation or both of the President and Vice declaring what Officer shall then act as and such Officer shall act until the Disability be or a President shall be The President at stated receive for his a which shall neither be encreased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United or any of Before he enter on the Execution of his he shall take the following Oath or do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United and will to the best of my protect and defend the Constitution of the United how about if I say that what is owed husband is that you engage in the ordinary practice of marriage which is uniting in the marital embrace when the couple feels the attractive for OK to suspend that ordinary practice when grave reasons intervene as being in a public for What about what the husband owes the mutatis mutandis Andrews Exactly I really think ok for even academics to admit there a universal answer The Church has been very careful to not make a list Not to make our lives harder but because there universals when it comes to what is just to a unique Andrews Right John I was answering for but absolutely the husband must be willing to die to self for the good of his wife and Mutadis mutandis my a fair I think NFp is always looked at from both the view of responsibility AND And it goes both Not just forcing the dude to hold I see how what you say actually contradicts what I tried to say I agree that couples will have varying circumstances a similar way that different Presidents have different circumstances where they have to decide whether to go to But not the same as the couple really wants to abstain for is That what the Church Water power bolt on kits for jet skis There Andrews The thing is Wendy I think I owe my husband more than just sex when we feel like I owe him a healthy A happy home and most children raised educated well and safe and secure in their families So what is just to my husband is what is just to my since that is the end of And what is just is to say no to self and yes to the good of the Flyboard HD Man can walk on does any one else feel the need to throw in a I was hoping for blue oyster I was feeling the need for cowbell The reason circumstances are morally is not because they make the act not fall under a universal but because they make the act fall under a different Andrews anything the couple really wants to abstain for is OK I see this a lot in NFP the hypothetical couple abstaining for a Well not hypothetical anymore NFP is self correcting that If a greater good than coming together as continue to the perceived good will fade and things will rightly correct I think all be hard pressed to find the couple who is using a self denial in and of for selfish circumstances always important morally For example having marital relations with your wife is just having marital Having marital relations with someone else is New circumstance new species new universal moral norm applies Guiding to discussions about NFP is a handy and effective way to keep the Church the example the circumstance is or one more but you HAVE to watch Official Video Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made The Andrews But I THATS COOL I used to think Pope Bonbon was but giving him a run for the money NFP going to push not because I think you hold the following but because wondering in what draw the Why would you tell a couple that they use NFP so they can save for a You see into their it would satisfy some deep and make them the Matthew Peterson really and so a better How do you make the argument that they use NFP for that Andrews Fonzie Jumps the Shark on Happy Days Ever hear someone say that a tv show water jetpack your argument is Rubber sharks beat Rubber sharks beat Andrews I I the couple and God and their spiritual adviser to It would have to do with their motivations and I know why I think the whole concept of trying to pin down who can use NFP and when Andrews BAT SHARK That view totally undermines moral philosophy and moral There is nothing that makes me feeler closer to Christ that being lectured about the merits of various reasons for art those who have carefully vetted their excuses for not getting should have been one of the I think confounding two the the of reasons which make it OK to do and the motivations of some individual person and the guilt they incur or do not incur The more speculative lectures are generally either for those who already have determined to abide by the teachings or for to take into account when thy use rhetoric to convert Andrews No it exactly what the Church say in this it seems to me that confounding the judgment about a particular person with the universal judgment of an act in specified The former instance is because no one can no all the relevant circumstances Andrews No saying that a decision to partake in a perfectly licit as deemed by the cannot be judged by those of us who know their The latter is basically the subject of moral Robin has underwear over perfectly licit a grave our responsibility to understand what that But adding the claim that since a particular couple be we judge universally whether a certain kind of circumstance is sufficient to justify NFP like I was trying to say THANK Wendy pretttty sure a water jet pack right would deeply satisfy the longings of my soul and make me a better virtually Official Video Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made The Andrews saying there is no universal There will always be particular circumstances and there will never be universal circumstances by which we can draw around on a about sex And saying that not how circumstances work Love responsibility page interact with others as they have their own not a means to an get just for your own and dont get knocked up all by itself and do so skipping that the other has their own ends But always of every single moral act The addition of a circumstance can change the morality of the Andrews I Which is why the Church has never ever established a list of when NFP is ok and it is not But because it makes it fall under a different universal I think Bekah Sims Andrews point or the part of it I like is that the rough and ready principle of the the most people will only stop having sex for grave Let me play peacemaker WIG and Ed are showing there is a general principle by which an action can be judged Bekah is pointing out that there no way of judging the people  WIZ to Michael always be WIG to me He said and Andrews And each circumstance will be unique to the Andrews And therefore we establish true of killing but murder still happens Andrews Or what Matthew and Mike and where you go wrong It is amazing how much devout Catholics unintentionally share about their most intimate private lives while discussing But I still think Ed and WIZ are we need guidelines But props to wig for allowing the jet pack So for all the handwringing of young catholic most people at the end of the day going to actually abstain unless they think shite just got real for hella where have I said that I judge any individual Andrews I never said you did the difficulty with guidelines the varying relativity of Finances vs stress vs health vs he shot must have had a good for assume anything about have fun now a very different and roughly self limiting and the fact that it never comes up in these discussions is Never comes I hear it all the I think Matthew Peterson the day ones losses their car breaks down AND someone gets No nookie for a little That type of shite the difference between NFP and murder is pretty different just trying to make a point Most people do not give up available sex with someone they are attracted to unless they think they are in grave Andrews I would love a universal It would be extremely But it exist practically So the guidelines would have to be tailored to each couple at there state in life can totally change in a a And so where a good spiritual adviser would be To assist the individual couple ascertain if they are being or or have a headache Most people give up available property there for the taking even if they are in grave circumstances  But are we really going to refuse to give any sort of public thought to the SORT OF THING that makes NFP that I list every single possible situation and pass judgment on I assumed since he stole the he must have been hungry Understanding NFP is pretty important I how else can we signal to our peer group that we are the most orthodox family in the rosary Andrews I say that Wendy but I just think the list would be so be My family need to the rosary judgment means nothing to You hear about it all the and I disagree with your point people love to talk about this stuff and themselves but at the end of the day what they actually do is far The idea that all these people are out there misusing NFP hold weight with me at If people forgo sex for long periods of and go through all this it for the sake of a water jet And the more disciplined they are that the more interested they are in water jet so since it is there grave moral Andrews I think this is escape for us back to the good old days when we could discuss tough for hours on And not be interrupted by a naked three year old who just walked in and announced I want to more than one balanced priest has expressed to me his concerns about misuse of And if anyone outside of the individual is qualified to say a priest I think as long as a list of circumstances was stipulated to be the morality of every action could be Or world find themselves in ACTUAL NEED of the jet pack in their sad miserable that seems why we can do any judging about morals at The reason we judge INDIVIDUALS is that we know all their the BVM weeps on her throne each time a loving couple with five kids uses an inadequate excuse for abstaining from I demand that a group of elderly Italian men immediately convene and draw up a list telling me when I can have There is a but how many experienced priests in conservative parishes think it something that ranks talking about as much as orthodoxish circles yammer on and on about we all like to talk about The only circles that care about NFP seem to be to be quite if you think what anyone here has been I could be can type that If there were no universals regarding then there would be no guidelines by which a spiritual director could guide a couple seeking his if you recognize the need for spiritual direction in then you implicitly recognize the existence of Death penalty could be interesting when everyone tires of talking about when ok to take a roll in the the argument of itself imply that NFP can be used for The argument not a grave stop It seems to me a problem death penalty is immoral so I will bid NFP seems to be a slippery slope that leads to the disolution of the family when each rides around on their own separate water jet pack Andrews not saying there just that they are as hopeless vague as not For just And we get much more particular than Because circumstances then come into Wendy your comments have been brilliant in this Thank not a perfect and of course there are but for the love of lust alone most people do not give up available sex except for grave reasons that they will be thinking about and that will be tested over in this So prudence has a little help here from Checks and checks and The safety valve argument is not an argument just a recognition that reasons will often be weeded Death penalty is immoral really does MODERNISM But I think that what is modern is inherently Arguing about NFP is one of the most thoroughly modern aspects of contemporary Catholic After reading all inclined to think that TAC exists in order that people who otherwise stand very little chance of getting laid are able to find mating Owen but as an outside I would argue that TAC is actually an elaborate speed dating service for orthodox Catholics with less than stellar SAT My SAT scores were as were my GRE thank my GRE sat and act were or above I should have added the but just a shot across the no need to get uppity I had a on the calculus BC exam in highschool is between That guarantee you anything at top I had on the GRE The point is not than you read all that Which is why intelligent people pick TAC and your point even I read all comments TAC grads spend a ton of time talking about how smart they Which is why this thread has almost I just enjoy tweaking like I a shot across the I take it but I think anyone is about how smart they more like TAC grads spend a lot of time sometimes the substance shows how smart they are my GRE sat and act were or it was a reaction to your but a couple of comments out of mean a whole lot May I refer you to the post that sits at the top of this aaah the tongue in cheek Aaron can be the new I think he has the crazy of Pope Bonbon Any poems to read to disappointing i thought the initial post highlighted the strength of the Not the quality of raw It takes a special sort of Maybe if he made a profile and used the same well then maybe For a dating TAC sure make you do a lot of unrelated almost as if dating their primary Guess they should have gone with the God forbid I say one good thing about my alma mater reading lots of two long dead Owen I submit to you that any FB post with this many comments is full But given that a lot of people on the thread are religious and and you want to talk about I would refer you to every major recent study which shows practicing religious married couples have more and better than pretty much everyone no I just made a jokey comment and the next thing I knew people were pulling their SAT scores out of Owen but you assailed their scores and thereby their albeit in a jokey We do not joke on this We are all super no just Ed and Seriously I type faster than I realize jokes I once knew a man from falcon But Boethius a bit unmagisterial I see what you did If these numbers are accurate I would think assertion rather Thomas Aquinas College SAT Costs and Admissions Data Thomas Aquinas average SAT BY ALLEN GROVE I was grasping at I defend my intelligence even though I got a perfect score on everything The averages are just facts not on the other you conclude anything about anyone from averages But why anyone would give much credit to the present day system in the first place is beyond The average american male is how tall am The standard deviation for Reading scores at TAC is better than UC Berkeley And why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond Plenty of larger fish in the the average life expectancy is when will I please replace stellar SAT with very unimpressive SAT much better top of the bottom half of the first national liberal arts schools Not but not super If those scores impress except an SAT score of puts one in the but I guess everyone who takes the SAT go to college TAC from what has a policy of admiting a wide spectrum of SAT scores to prevent students from moving too quickly through difficult nasty comment about combined with rather than scholarships explains the lower SAT Pace my friends who drive Audis or went to but the most annoying grads to me are the ones on the freeway in a shiny with a USC logo trying to pull in front of me after getting stuck behind a truck that the rest of us saw five minutes I am the TAC is the no one here is saying that reading the right books make up for being not quite Point Loma Compare SAT Scores for Admission to California Colleges and Universities Learn what SAT scores are needed to get BY ALLEN GROVE For the third time in the history of this my daughter came in the room and asked me why I was laughing so the All saying is we read a lot of those two authors more than most or anyone and cool in my We may only be ranked in the for national liberal arts We may not understand a word we read but think we But I think cool we read that chart tells me that TAC is for kids who would have had a chance at some top schools if they had been able to pull up their math scores about or In short its a safety for smart kids who struggled in  I think many strategize that although score wise you gotta be a freak if you want to go to TAC either parents forced you or you are drawn to the For under graduate degrees it is virtually irrelevant where you go to I only applied to the thought of applying somewhere else was never serious for Everyone has a Bachelors of some You can I got a BA at Harvard in and you still get paid as a casualty adjuster at Mercury three of my uncles teach at  why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond so long as the Colleges Johnnies are the apotheosis of arrogant and a shame to all great bookers Harvard grads known for meekness either now I am and I better stop because my kids will probably go to and when they see this thread hanging on a wall in the they might ask me about my role in I think young people are Almost all of It is the way things not right Young people with educations come off as more  For undergraduate degrees it is exceedingly important where you got to which is why parents shell out a year to send their kids to the highly regarded  Owen White within great books circles TACers are more than fair I thought that was because of the football I got to be string quarterback at How many great books schools are Thomas More not really sure about the latter Never lived the dream at one of those big  If you went to Claremont you would have had small intense attention paid to your individual needs and and employers like Google and Goldman Sachs would come on campus looking for And you would be ready for them despite your liberal arts ish background because the college would make sure you compared to Texas and Notre at least the cult of TAC generally centers on intellectual The employers are mostly interested in or For think Caltech or MIT would stand out as undergraduate At CMC the vast majority of graduates enter the workforce And at the highest of I know it hurts to hear but you are believing But anywhere else is just as good as anywhere Shimer College is great So now you see why I take comfort in what we did which is lots of Aristotle and I entered the workforce directly out of that may be But I think that would be an exception for most degree As it I have no desire to defend the worldly effectiveness of any of my Tell that to all the Princeton kids walking straight from graduation to their cushy wall street jobs Daniel because be a difficult sell I have pursued the least likely most and longest lasting track to achieve my educational that is not because of their but because of their The sense I have from recent news is that attending an Ivy League college generally means crushing debt for the next ten or twenty years thats a not at It is based on rank and Most TAC grads have no idea how it The top schools get you the best Outside of you are outside looking It is ONLY because of their The top tier national liberal arts colleges place their graduates at the top elite positions in the graduates of Franciscan end up as married couples with a combined debt of aout and degrees in so not just an Ivy League I watched them do Then I watched them come back for reunions with their billions and billions of dollars You guys are way out of your of Ivy League grads annually go into Its because of their degrees and the career office but liberally You live in a and even known liberally educated poor Oh we know it The degree means and it comes with career offices and relationships of the highest since we have been hearing undocumented here is some Relax Employers care where you go to university any more The job market has changed dramatically in recent Graduate News Does University Ranking Even Matter in University ranking certainly plays its part on decisions How do I get to be a hedge fund Play with other money and skim off the oh Yale Princeton kids come out with Either their parents pay the whole or the University does Bu can they discuss NFP at their I need I live it and see it from a variety of The top schools function as a filtering system for the top positions in American These kids have parents who know this and have striven for years to make sure their kids become players in this why they freak out over getting their kid accepted into the right preschool you think just they know how this world TAC is like the Shire in all TNET is our great Also the Thomas and the Aristotle Where You Go To College Matter what you do when you get there that JOIE not reading the I can tell from the title that BS sounds a lot need these kids are all very smaht but also the perfect They can set meetings at some TACers could do the same and we could much better on these fronts but we are so clueless it makes me sick to my It might be true under the top Same for you Samantha of the proposed new addition to the TAC telling watched this happen with my mouth hanging open in shock at the injustice of it all that just the result of having a Does It Matter Where You Go To Probably A designer degree matter nearly as much in In most of those Daniel come to CMC and go to the career office Did you not hear Some businesses only interview at certain There are hedge funds that only hire from one or two Look at the facts re where graduates from top tier schools Do you think a TAC grad has a prayer at working for Google or not anyone but the fact this is even a convo is disheartening and sad to no But TAC even in the hope for the I think a between positions and later What if I want to work at a hedge nice Would you publish articles on how to become a member of little Not sure if TAC completely or the liberal arts degree as a I do think the degree you get is part of the job game Once you get your foot in the most of a brilliant career is the way it is in I think as a rule employers see the liberal arts degree as anything On the other if you have a in Computer Science or an that makes more of a So it solely the college you go also the degree you Go look up the facts on where cabinet members and presidents and senators often come Tiny handful of I does very little to help its graduates get jobs Mark Kretschmer has done a lot to improve in an undergrad matter very The people that are getting hired right of college are getting that because of their parents and Not the crazy This is not a rational Because if it were the then the people hiring would be very because they almost certainly could get someone just as good or almost for less That is Good Says the man who read And At top tier national liberal arts like many of the Claremont Google and Goldman hire people on account of their specialized Nor do the hedge funds who hire from And Do Elite Colleges Produce the data from a site that CATHERINE RAMPELL I gave you some homework assignments I suggest you do One of the articles that I failed to I was about Google and how it care about where students come This may be lost on but no matter read that More true of Google than Hedge but at google for a long time if you Stanford you were looked as ran the that mean I agree with article seems to indicate that a choice of major does make a bit of difference on what type of salary you degrees like mathematics and economics filled most of the top slots in both highest starting median salaries and highest median Who is going to put this into a word doc or so I can read it at the beach like a penny Just start paying attention to where elite members of degrees come Look at career services and what info top ten national liberal arts colleges and national give re where they place If my Father is and he and all ancestors and all his friends and their ancestors went to CMC that is why I am getting hired by one of his Or do I mean a penny Talk to any national leader in virtually any field of any Talk to any parent cognizant of how the top rung in any field of any mind in America your argument is predicated upon the notion that the people that are in those by and already and I by By this I obviously mean the whole The Neverending love that you can tag it within Talk to anyone who has worked in Wall Street for more than their fathers worked their and based on these points and it seems that the magic combination to Get a Good Job is an Ivy tier and a desirable Am I summarizing the arguments and their And because it is that what very one tells you is merely nepotism and has nothing to do with top tier undergraduate not your fault you know this There is no shame in But it is the way it if one wants to be a then best chances are to be born to I think going to try to put it in a word doc format and then But I can only do that when the thread ends and I think this thread will ever it seems to be If one wants to be a professional then by and large undergrad does not graduate more In anyone can be whatever he or she even Daniel Lendman can become president  I have met who get the cushy and I am even friends with They are no They also got good But they get hired because of their That is just the way the world My chances for being president were slim to begin They diminish proportionately to the time I spend on this I am At least insofar as being president is at least waaaaay below the Mendoza line I will also grant that certain names have a kind of mystique about but for most at least according to the above posted reports and it matters and hedge funds are eeeevil to generally the case in engineering related fields that a good graduate degree is more important than a good you could do Especially since the first couple years of undergrad are generally taught by graduate students rather than by them famous In my the choice of graduate school matters a little but more about the degree you Most libraries trying to cut hire any professional librarians with any degree less than a also true in engineering fields that a is often bad for job prospects because it makes employers think you be happy with little boring All that is but if you think it is not beneficial to go to Harvey Mudd or Stanford or MIT undergrad For grad of what I need is a file that automatically updates itself as new replies are added to the That would be really I put Stanford and MIT aside mostly because their undergrad programs are generally as difficult as a masters degree ARE YOU EFFING I think absolutely right about A Stanford engineering degree is only good for GRAD in Texas at the better schools and generally let you do the first two years at Podunk Community College and guarantee BS in engineering does not mean An MIT ENGINEERING DEGREE is only good for GRAD What engineering firm is going to hire Your undergrad certainly helps with where you go to grad One has better my Aunt in Ohio told me that an Associates degree in Machining will pretty much guarantee a job as a the supply demand ratio right now is pretty lopsided in favor of the read the article I linked It shows salaries for people who ONLY have an undergrad degree You I was never once upset with The Peregrine in all his Dragon level But you for the very first time in all this trolled me And for that you deserve an A student at MIT at the top of the class in engineering will likely be able to get into the graduate level at Most of the others will have to go somewhere the majority of engineering undergrads at WSU find engineering jobs in Wichita while on and a large portion of these roll directly on after just MS is the new No one is saying that you get jobs but this ruthless avoidance of the reality of top tier education and job placement in this country is mind A bachelors nothing from MIT gets an average starting salary of over with a career median salary of over But since we are providing reasoned arguments and we really fit the troll I know if Daniel would admit but I think there are one or two schools for each field that make a no denying LOOK at the salaries for JUST a Harvey Mudd does pretty freaking well for that kind of thing people will often go to Mudd over No there are ten schools that make all the difference Googlers Are From Applers Are From San Jose State The next issue of on newsstands May has Where Did Google And Apple Employees Go To More young people would want to work for Google The other problem with those is that the conclusion presupposes that the future will be like the And I think Daniel has been trying to argue that that just true at this point in Bwhahahaa Get Rich The New Yorker Stanford University is so startlingly so fragrant and as if you could eat from the trees and Google is fixated on The billionaire Why Stanford University produces so many Article The judicial Power of the United shall be vested in one supreme and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and The both of the supreme and inferior shall hold their Offices during good and at stated receive for their a which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in The judicial Power shall extend to all in Law and arising under this the Laws of the United and Treaties or which shall be under their all Cases affecting other public Ministers and all Cases of admiralty and maritime Controversies to which the United States shall be a Controversies between two or more between a State and Citizens of another Citizens of different Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different and between a or the Citizens and foreign Citizens or In all Cases affecting other public Ministers and and those in which a State shall be the supreme Court shall have original In all the other Cases before the supreme Court shall have appellate both as to Law and with such and under such Regulations as the Congress shall The Trial of all except in Cases of shall be by and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been but when not committed within any the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have Treason against the United shall consist only in levying War against or in adhering to their giving them Aid and No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt or on Confession in open The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person engineering schools produced the best starting and represented eight out of the top schools in starting On the other Ivy League Schools are the best bet for with five out of the top AND THIS IS BACHELORS ONLY Being a really a rich they pay but any number of tech firms pay equivalent while are my dad TAC got a job offer from So that last article seems to support a version of my nepotism My who graduated from is working at Amazon Louis cut Michael the This entire article is based on the premise that it is shocking a student from Duke would even get an interview from How A Duke Undergrad With No Finance Background Got Lured By Goldman Sachs Highly with no clear career in silicon valley is barely a living  I have a friend from Steubenville who went to Franciscan and is working for some Anecdata for I have never said that you get into these places by other but the willful refusal to acknowledge the practical benefits of a top tier school is just beyond the or off the fucking rails Goldman Sachs and apparently Google are very because if they altered their hiring practices they could find equally educated and capable individuals who would likely work for is a lot easier to go inside the house through the front do you I can climb on the roof and go through a I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier computer jobs have a relatively low bar for entry For the I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier Often because the kind of people who are into computers are generally also out to get the There had better not be a Sam got cut due to relative mediocrity not due to his sexual And I even said it make sense that things be this it does in many These schools act as a gigantic filtration system that makes things easy for the business and organizations in Most of these kids in high school or junior high would be far better employees than TAC grads and most are far more naturally of I do think we get at the end of the I just think the benefit is due to the level of in most cases these people are not It derives directly from how the school is perceived by to be TAC in general are not great We are more suited to Bwhahaha Bwhahahahaha hey I resemble  I find that really amusing considering that I am actually a manager of I find that power suits me middle management philosopher kings No doubt due to the role model of our who are all excellent and to the training in leadership we receive and the fact we are all there with fellow type A types who are striving to and to the campus culture which is clearly trying to cultivate managers and leaders so in some qualified way in some Philosopher dude But most recent college graduates SHOULD be getting my which would also larn them the first lesson they need to Oh Matthew glad a TAC degree lend itself to worldly In fact rather sorry the school was Other than being able to making a living why do you Someone just asked me to be friends on Why would you be sorry that Because it changed the type of kids who applied to the school could it could it be the troll we all know and Anyone know a pick pick He tried to befriend me So what of kids are now applying to And if you really want a get rich I think the oil business in the Dakotas is the place to if you had bought up all the property a couple years late now DO IT do I sense that the Peregrine might be ready to make a From the the Peregrine like the Phoenix of  Megan Perhaps it would have been better to say that not being accredited acted as a NOOOOOO curious what type of students do you think TAC is attracting come Matthew what else do you have to do on a Saturday Save up for a jet My wife and kids are out of Will The PEREGRINE TNET I will stay up as long as it takes to see this thread reach is right around the corner you He could be out for TNET I fear no AND GET TNET shut  do you feel broke and this is as close to free entertainment as it so why trolling I can even imagine the Eastwood was that or to tell you the in all this excitement forgotten my going to go pretend to have a life for a little I am going to have to do something i havent had to do in a long time my brother separated from birth you are talking He represents the Eastern Catholic side of the His ancestors were My ancestors remained making this He was a character in a draft I was born before I did not know you create fb Not knowing is a beautiful Does anyone have any THE PEREGRINE RETURNS TNET But what The Peregrine you that it really Our substitute troll was and he lacked Michael The Peregrine has Samantha Can I say something about or as we call it in be interested in hearing your Do I totally espouse the beliefs of the Not And not his He would frequently say things like not put words in my He is a pen a true converso to the Catholic still angry that some Romans from the IVth crusade sacked hotel rooms in Thank you for Any more Any political Any question is okay with PhDs from top grad schools diversity get ALL THE These there are so few jobs that even crappy little jobs go to PhDs from fancy That was more of a preamble then actually asking for but I appreciate your  And the graduate students at the top grad schools almost all come from schools with connected professors Caleb was a total The rest of his cohort came from schools with very highly regarded philosophy departments The upshot of is that if you go to Yale or Princeton as an undergrad and study you have an almost incalculable advantage over us poor TAC lovers of INCALCULABLE And not forget the diversity that plays a big part If African American or that gives you a leg not seen it play out in the hiring process out I if you ever want to get a job What about in the private sector I think in the private your success rises or falls on if you can bring in and hopefully what you do is good and TAC really helped me in a couple of key even despite the fact that I could not get past the first a that is and the reason they are all freaked about diversity is because these places are full of similar white peeps The magic combination for a great job is coming from a top tier having and a sought Coming from the top tier school gets you those connections in academia too your success will eventually depend on what you you You have to be born with once managed to get into a top tier Of being born with them helps you get into the top tier But in the private sector you have a lot more opportunity getting in at top tier schools The jobsters come to although if you have a fancy degree and a fancy advisor who loves you have a much better chance to get a tenure track job right out of the gate then you have more time and resources and support for which makes it easier for you to publish and publish well I just marvel at the person and the society where the truly good person can So many good people get kicked Maybe a bit like boot know if anyone knows Maggie a good example of the good and as I anyone who has seen the career office at a place like Princeton in action will weep hot tears of jealousy and despair over what TAC has to can we TACers climb on the smash through a and arrive at the party looking a bit flustered and as though we Some of us But it sure is a whole lot easier to get invited and go through the front you This example is especially relevant for TAC grads since so many of us would really love to be philosophers or theologians or some Some to some But many want to or have no idea what the terrain looks The good news is we I relatively easily propel up multiple levels in ranking and in terms of job placement if we had the will and the The first step is making sure everyone see what You gotta know the Canucks Bruins But not sure institutionally or among grads if the will is The tutors back in our day were SHOCKED that Caleb only got into one of the top schools he applied What they know was that it was a miracle he got accepted that that one at Scott I think good people can but yes a always been kicked I know if but our applicants to grad school will always be very hampered by the lack of connections They themselves will admit they have No idea what it looks like out there at And institutionally they refuse to take responsibility for so And of course by the fact that we know how to write papers that read like acceptable academic papers I think got to get kicked around a not that I advocate to build But grads seem to What they do after really depends on what they know or is expected from their and TAC does nothing to encourage or assist those who are unaware of what they could For what shall it profit a if he shall gain the whole and lose his own TAC definitely needs to help students develop more acceptable academic The writing And we need to write I was not remotely prepared for the amount of writing I needed to do in grad Michael Beitia should be researching or teaching at a top college or U and consulting with a Jeffrey nothing said involves changing the program at I know of any professional setting been in where I have not found my core beliefs in some way challenged but what do I Looking it is not bad to place yourself in those environments if where your job search takes I Hard Knocks are the best post undergrad I have no problem with changing the if that your I do what it is looking  talking about worldly success is what talking  Do you really think the Ivy League can give Arête See Translation What is worldly But what about influence within the What about a place within mainstream You have to have what the culture have to have meaningful influence within the not saying TAC should become the Ivy Leagues Without true you will not change the it will change Mainstream academia for the most a if some of our graduates want to get PhDs in philosophy that might ever land them tenure track they need more help than TAC is going to get them I never said the Ivy League can give It does as people are often pushed to do their We need more of that We have people who are working crap jobs who could be doing much more for their and the We could be in the world at not to some We could be starting our students out light years above where they are setting them up better for giving them the opportunity to excel at what they are best Instead it is shameful to I think you can be a part of the culture without being absorbed by I did as much as I loved that it was lacking a little in practical For the writing aspect at the college really prepare me for what I faced at graduate I recommend changing the program i want the school to lose its identity but maybe tweaking some elements to better prepare students for graduate Of I could be totally in my The writing program is very but it should not be oriented to writing better graduate school These student need They have a great education that could easily get them more than it And if you want to tell a bunch of kids that studying theology and metaphysics is the highest and best thing you can But then not to consider it your job as a institution to help them out at all along that career This is a solvable problem without that is not the and were they to make it their they would be sending a contradictory message to the One has to desire the education for its own sake if it is to be of any real As soon as you start looking at it all The fact a very small percentage of TACers aspire to continue in philosophy or a hard saying for all the people who wander needlessly for years Not all who wander are not sure what practical help TAC could give for people wanting to get into engineering or law or Christendom is more of a But I had a boss in DC who tried to destroy my because she was an ideologue who opposed what she thought the charter meant and stood I think Harvard and Princeton and other places would benefit from the TAC but they probably oppose what they think it stands That makes it very You need to be very lucky to make it in this especially if you want to dig gold or make It have to change approach to the It just means a number of practical steps and offices set up outside of the This rocket The key word is It cannot be a part of the institution if the institution is to be what it professes to I think the idea that the institution can teach impressionable youth and then take no responsibility for the context in which they teach them a bit The truth we are all so ignorant of what these steps are it is really and truly There is no will or understanding of the world in which we And this is why we But it is early If I understand the it sounds like rubbish to Having a career placement office on the campus a sector of that devoted to those who want advanced compromise anything that TAC is The point is to perfect the To gain a treasure that one can carry away in a if one wants a different kind of one can seek But to mix the two would be to destroy the true What is needed is the creation of a strategy consulting firm that specializes in systems analysis and process improvement and implementing best If you hired folk from programs like tac you would have the right skillset for such diverse analytical work These students are capable of They do so on their So why the Conforming to the or of the world has in part ruined the Engineering students are mostly incapable of seeing the big acting as a consultant to engineers is a great business Gown cannot be town and still be Would it be a Götzendämmerung to have a person on campus devoted to preparing those for the GRE who want to take One can buy a prep No need to further lower tutor salaries to pay someone to read a prep book to the WHY HELP STUDENTS OBTAIN BETTER AND STABLE It is accidental to the real What contradictory message would they I offered to be at the career day a few years ago but mark never got me on the Let them go to graduate school and suffer for years because they have no idea of very basic information that could help them and their large families in a real sense for the rest of their The education is not ordered to success in the That is a straw It have to be ordered to it for the school to acknowledge that it plays some part in their future happiness By your argument any sort of institutional career support would be a betrayal of the ethos Unless you want students to be successful and donate back to the The contradiction is You cannot genuinely present yourself as a liberal arts institution and at the same time orient toward worldly They should do nothing practical for their The funny thing there is no classical school ever that did such a thing to its William Washington Plenty of schools do TAC is in NO danger of doing They could pay a lot more attention to the practical and still not be toward worldly You seem to be saying that TAC is such a William and Mary does not provide a liberal arts despite their The medieval degrees were all part of practical jobs one could get The ancient and other sorts were for those with the wealth and connections for College in The school just know how to practically apply to real work The way it seems to me we have a too easy time of Not conforming is s my  say it one more you have to change the educational program one bit to take steps to help students get jobs assist in the success of the college as And they do not have a separately funded office that understands business enough on how to apply to the current challenges in the business world I think you are You would have to change the orientation even if you changed nothing formally in the Where did you go to school With whom did you How did this lead to your own What do you oppose TAC grads attempting to get Would this be a betrayal of their devotion to knowledge per Not at Which Using the distinction between practical and speculative to dodge the issue is the usual and There is no example of this in medieval Thomas Aquinas did not teach in this kind of absurd not did It is a load of Which The one who is saying nonsense Not you Jeff What is If graduates are allowed to be concerned about their job prospects after why should the college not be allowed to be to some moderate We were not talking about medieval I withdraw the question about just curious about where you went to school and with whom you I seem to recall that you took a different path than the one proposing for the The medieval institutions were degree mills for people going into and the The Church was one of the largest employers So you tell Jeffrey that practically orientated context produced Thomas Aquinas and his Why our graduates get institutional help to continue on from Kenyon and from the University of Never took a different path than the one I am Aristotle would never have written the Ethics if he trying to influence young I once had a who googled the Christendom mission and based on that even though I was a total decided I was on a secret crusade to all things to which meant everything the world misrepresents about the But always thought Christendom could tone it down a We are talking about a liberal arts not medical school or law  TAC is not a liberal arts college Like I I have no problem discussing changes in the TAC but the desire to make the school more oriented to worldly success would destroy You went to Kenyon and the University of You are no longer allowed to No one is talking about changing its fundamental orientation I guess it depends how you define are we allowed to have a career office at Or only if it remains Not being a cradle I knew nothing about TAC or what it Thankfully there was still a shadow of liberal arts education at Kenyon and the University of So I know something of both keenly aware of the problems at The Other but I accept the idea that being cognizant and active about these issues means one has to alter contemplative Probably would only sharpen given that none of the contemplative authors we read acted in some context less vaccuum I pure That is your straw man representation of my but not my position at It is not just a contemplative It is a complete dedication to perfecting the intellect quite apart from any practical gain that comes from As it turns such an education has tremendous practical But once you begin to make that your liberal education will The problem is the skillset taught is directly applicable to a number of jobs but either the school is unaware how to market to fill the void I do not believe that the school believes that being practical should never result from the theoretical It seems to me that a stronger Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association would be better than a career office  Especially if it involved some kind of nepotistic hiring practices The other Jeff seems to say that theoretical would cease if ever steered toward the practical It would no longer be theoretical by Many great poets at Kenyon over the I would gladly be working on getting to that roll only the case if one tried to be practical and theoretical in one Well I went to TAC because I wanted to make a lot of why I became a As it there is not enough time in four years to do what needs to be done in terms of liberal graduate degree in philosophy is where the big bucks TACers are practical enough to aviod studies though Many of you see the institution only from the perspective of a student who leaves wondering how to translate his education into making a But to see the institution from the inside is to be acutely aware of how little time there is to do what the school proposes to I think a psychological aspect as When I got kicked out of TAC a second time lack of intelligence and bad it took a while to find a path that was aligned with the good I discovered I always just wanted to go back to the I do not know if this is psychological or because there is no connection between truth and the But everyone does find a I think there is an a Word becoming flesh kind of I notice that Scott Weinberg has dragged his new hide back to The Is he being nicer Will he tolerate some perfectly reasonable and serious questions about didactic poetry once the installment of the discussion on curriculum is My choice was between the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester and I would not trade my education at TAC for but with an eye on my later prospects for a Philosophy and a I probably should have gone to Holy And I need to know if free verse is you have said it all Why would you not trade your TAC education for Even for a But a more practical orientation would not have given you the same The subsequent tension with the world is a sign that the student has been and changed for the A comfortable transition to the world would be and not even possible if the education has been I just wished that someone would have prepared me more for graduate school and given me better Not all of us score perfectly on the GRE and have our pick of Ivy League programs in either a stark oil and water relationship between a TAC formation and some other or a pending illumination to be it seems to What could someone have done for Like you had to find out for Nice You know Oz was a Socialist man crucified on a yellow brick cross of Which bother of course Speaking of I had dinner at TAC with this guy He related to us that his company had once done an essay competition and that the essays of TACers were obviously better than everyone The school should do a lot more When I was there the students wrote only a few papers the entire I dunno about Writing takes a lot of time and year are pretty as it And I found the transition to writing to be more a matter of applying myself to actually writing than learning some foreign that particularly good at but neither are most academics I I edit for an academic Some of the articles I used to edit for the Review before that for the were not The problem of bad academic writing is but talking about the problem TAC grads will have when they send their to grad Were the tutors unwilling to read those samples before you sent them Say I interested in any of the prestigious so I have any The tutor who was there Zedlick helped me put alot of work into my writing and I got into both schools I applied So why not go to a different not sure I understand the Were they CUA and CUA and agree more with MJP and Jeff always found some irony in the fact that the college is always quick to point out the success of some of their graduates in their publications as well as the admission but do so little to help them take that next step to get The tutors are overburdened already probably explains why I was well both of those are on the short list of places where good TAC students do seem able to get in And I guess you guys seem to be able to get jobs at other small Catholic schools But sure I have to tell you its hella rough out there The sense I is that because fair number of TACers have been through those places and established a relatively good reputation Unlike Notre Dame for some has decided they hate TAC Unlike Notre Dame where they have apparently barred the gates against us  we now have Sean Kelsey I can tell you the NIETO Is this just a Quack thought it was because TACers generally just wanted to teach at that is complete and total nonsense Lol Mark Kretchmer does the best he can with what he The main problem is a tutor culture that see this as their job ever in any way shape or form and are almost all ignorant of how the system We will continue to do better as we pump out more alumni and we do much better than many might This is The tutors also by and large have no idea how to write letters of recommendation This is probably less true of some of the younger MacArthur told me what his letter was As someone who worked for the school for a few years I can tell you that Mark is completely also has no direct experience with academia on the accepted and gave him money and this dude is just as good as he so you should give him money But letters from people who have no connections are pretty much useless sounds about right Of course he They overburden all the also complete plurality of opinions among tutors about approaching Like Tom Once I obtained the degree in taught at some fair to decent schools and now a shmancy I love Claremont likely never be hired there tenure because of my pedigree and the fact that these place eat their own like as opposed When I was applying to grad I was given information about ITI and Ave and I did of the leg work I got a lot of helpful advice from some of the younger tutors about what TAC would NOT be able to do for Writing is a good way to discover in your The Logos is more than One of the things noticed is Christendom grads have this inescapable grasp of in His not saying writing is the but I do think what TAC proposes is what I wished Christendom had much more because Reason is the material spouse of so to I do not understand why TAC expels great future poets and statesmen because they intelligent enough to do or patient enough to everything becoming clear later Intelligence is broader than I am At least I am cheering for the And I mean that it actually was helpful Boston College is another one that seems relatively open to As a graduate student working at the college I got some very helpful opinions from some tutors about publishing and networking with other professors that I might be doing doctoral studies with it was actually pretty It helps a lot that I had a pretty distinct idea of what I was interested in studying and lots of motivation them But with some time and effort I think I have a decent shot at a lot more than the small circle of usual But this is largely because I naturally have some skills already I have other skills that others do and that developed on my own over many years of learning the score the hard Getting a tenure track job is harder these days than getting an entertainment deal and they even give credit for studying with Duane write a movie about I know a great So is the problem just that tutors care about helping students get into graduate school by writing letters of recommendation for Is the problem that the students have to do all the work when it comes to where they go All of the kinda Chris two articles for the Thomist seem pretty widely read in Catholic philosophy and the Because at every institution the students have to find the professors who will help them to the next That is the nature of the The students should do most of them but I think the college should provide in assist in getting them on the right I think the real problem is that TAC is well established in the Catholic circles but old enough to have a strong reputation outside of those Who was it that sued mitre dame law for anti des rumination whan they discovered that he was from South Africa and was white It made some news back in the Norte dame law I think the issue is the curriculum is too difficult in some and needs a tad more of the more important in my unbiased Sorry iphone Ray I The deeper problem I is a cartoon understanding of practical and speculative and a deep rooted insecurity and lack of excellence that prevents hiring tutors who would be able to tutor well and retain connection to the if looking into prestigious Catholic you should be Notre But we still need to make an impression on the larger academic What are the other prestigious Catholic  CUA CUA has a pretty good reputation in Catholic circles PhD I mean Samantha Wippel is basically the master of living Thomists What is the understanding that you What is excellence according to this And Noone is ridiculously well connected The Institute of Phenomenology in jk Sokolowski is Catholic Phenomenology We might have different definitions of The root problem to my mind is I think there is a problematic disdain for and unnatural separation of practical and speculative lurking But you combine this with lack of competition and insular enclavism and no requirements for tutors to do much of anything besides seminar style classes and you I meant qua But if CUA places its grads in tenure track jobs then more power to them not and The idea that you tutor well and write a few articles and books now and then as well is The two things can and should inform each Does Job Placement The majority of our graduates have gone on to or positions at the in the and Of those who have some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia in in as a member of a religious and some have majority of our graduates have gone on to or positions at the in the and Of those who have some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia in in as a member of a religious and some have chosen to conduct their searches only in very restricted geographical graduates of our program who engage in unrestricted job searches have excellent chances of finding a position teaching philosophy in a college or Most do so in Catholic colleges or some do so in institutions or So what would be changed to right the ship of I think Loyola Marymount has some great philosophy Eric Gretchen position here means a position at an institution that does not grant such as a Phenomenology does an end run around the but you need Christian philosophy to intregrate it with classical What about I since the market Since Write some articles and But how does that change the relationship of theory and They need to attract and hire better and keep them They need to let a bit of air out the chimney to keep the fire dated not sure about recently Christendom College has a prestigious online MA program in But counting placement since New Scott is I know the answer to that Edward is more in the thick of things right I would say that if you want to do MEDIEVAL and specifically you could do worse than study with Stephen Gersh at Notre I like him better than old Notre But they take Not the Philosophy but the Medieval Better could How does that change the relationship of theory and a TACer with a basically perfect application was told that find it better to make TACers wait a year before accepting I think she ever tried she got married and now lives in NYC At the Medieval I think it was ND but not exactly Emily you know if recent PhDs from CUA are getting tenure track I have this all but guessed who talking I think that was the philosophy but she can correct me if wrong John Brungardt was hired temporarily at Benedictine College and I think a chance that get a further I got in but not in philosophy Christendom should have a medieval bestiary in its But I really been keeping up with the stuff They need to think a bit harder about why it is that no had such a disinterest institutionally for the And no author we read thought or acted this Thomas might have so much it killed Aristotle was a pretty active overseeing and engaging in all kinds of The tutors need a kick in the They need to be encouraged to continue their education and engage with others while there can be with other They need a wider variety of tutors re their background and This mean that they lose their But pretend to complain about how hard it is to find people other than your own grads when even advertise open This is one of the best job markets in history for potential But note the ones who content to simply read the books and tutor either leave or become upset even when these are actually helping to inform and being informed by their Did you know that Christendom College still have a medieval bestiary in its Daniel Shields was hired at Xavier but not sure if a position they have Shields and Maybe we should just make a Great Books utopia in Here are the programs offered by the MI at but the question I answer is among the Philosophy faculty would review application before if one chose to apply in the area of Faculty by Field Medieval Institute University of Notre Dame The Medieval Institute at Notre Dame promotes AGENCYND UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME Taking a See you on the far side of TAC should not expel even if they yell at the Fair I know something of what you say from having been on the But I think the problem is the disinterestedness in the That is the my ongoing debate is should I pursue or jump ship and get into the entire tutor model or the extent to which it is is not in its extreme TAC form part of any of the great or academies of all No reqs of any Even in and with circles of like minded others friendly to your cause God forbid you wrestle with those who disagree you the greats we read and like the method we profess seems to suggest you Not only to stay but to pursue the truth I hear so much Did the medieval universities have Most of the publishing we have from them are the equivalent of Dissertations and class But get me love it will defend it to the and protect the shire at all Most of for is in the form of which are basically student transcriptions of Edward not but they all wrote more than any Thomas probably died from how hard he and a large part of that was writing as Noone has pointed out is the exception to the rule one of the only medieval men who wrote in order to be read Aristotle seems not to have been prevented from pursuing the truth while writing and pursuing many research projects at the same The tutors have plenty of in some sense of the phrase Aristotle may well have be the greatest genius for has been working on a comparison of Thomistic psychology with the findings of neurobiology for some time Some and I love them for it because they put of love and pursuit of Edward please pffft  But as you just Nieto is more exception than most get lazy unless I think you want more from one institution than any one institution can You seem to both love it and hate I think its speculative orientation is absolutely correct for an undergraduate but individual human some of which became were a problem when I was I know about Coughlin has chaired sessions at the ACPA and has several Aristotle translations Just De Anima in a complete I thought Danny was teaching at a seminary And most academic publishing of the best time is writing for the sake of And for letting iron sharpen iron amongst This idea that in the at respected national liberal arts colleges teaching suffers on account of research is They have fantastic teachers even at the method of TAC of the highest And the research reqs hold it unlike at the big Maybe but I remember him being hired at Xavier University to be some of the most respected researchers are less spectacular in the classroom for is amazing in the classroom Rule of the Christendom book of A yelling poet gets at least one written warning before it even becomes an All of academica is broke The real problem with academia is contraception and not enough students to make jobs for all the freshly minted What is The modern The encyclicals are not getting something from The world is broke Adrw We still have to live in it I think you are about the tension between serious research and publishing the modern and great When I started off in the honors program at Loyola in Baltimore someone met with as a the first week of someone met with you to ask if you planned to compete for the Rhodes or the Now I think TAC should be doing but like Samantha I found it nearly impossible to get good advice about grad school except from Adrw Lng Sumer Fellowships that I got from Notre Boston grants from the Fund for Theological Education were all things I found on my a student whose ambitious about pursuing grad school its likely that get a pamphlet for Ave and but it seem to be that the school would betray its character by hiring someone who is really in the know to coach students who are I wish a terminal MA was a viable career choice that is where you are The real problem is Are modern science and medieval science oil and wrong with oil and water being oil and That I embrace a Catholic Samantha online MA program does away with More fewer administrators and free scotch for I have to live in the world Samantha but not academia Online programs are a trick to educate people without teachers The modern universities are not universities at There is no because there is no agreement about first It is a war for and No integration or understanding of the various disciplines and their relationship to one All you need is a bunch of people to run the computers administrators TNET Why modern universities just be different than medieval first the Getting rid of tension and letting people who even have to put the time into lectures or grading papers simply read books and talk about them with little to no fresh air is a surefire way to bring about A war for money and Do you think maybe the government is probably what everyone told MacArthur in the and Plenty of tension among the tutors at at least in the But the tendency to hire graduates of the school I a problem on a number of And the TAC faculty has so What do philosophy departments teach these Sean He was the smartest On at we can agree Jeffrey Explain the devolution as you see But I still think something like what they do is just these little lies and strawmen you can publish and it can help inform your pursuit of truth and By engaging you in dialectic throughout your career with Does anyone think that the second or third generation of tutors is of stature of the they should be allowed to go to conferences and meet people I still understand Adrw Lng If you cut the teaching load in you can have some of what you But four sections is especially if you have never before for Decaen is pretty TOTALLY agree Edward just was laughing about the comment about the tutors NBD About the Decaen and also about cutting the teaching load in half I think Nieto is but not cup of I hear not for swamping them down and what they do is in many respects especially early Dunno if I could swing all the classes or anything at least Todays philosophers are the experts of I think Aristotle meant these guys in his Commonly held truths which were really false with which you begin the whole process of opinion masquerading as TAC should be able to take them dialect by just like Thomas That would be But it would take a long time to study all the modern I never had Coughlin my Nieto is more of a coffee but and similar are great tutors to have teach you Caleb suggests that TAC have a visiting scholar Lehman was always doing side academic giving papers in but he left for I really do that different skills make for good teachers and good researchers TAC can fall into the ocean for the help it gives people I think that is generally Probably better not to start talking about individuals IMHO Suggest TAC and Christendom have an arranged I think how we got Ferrier and welcome back although blocked me so I see you tutor swap with St Johns They need to be They need to awaken a communal and ongoing intellectual life among They should teach all classes but embrace and not fear special areas of They should commune and argue and debate and write and research with other like minded institutions and groups and conference and Done with priorities in right this would help inform their work in the not hinder So it WAS a good The tutor model also gives student a very unreal picture of what teaching in most times and places is and has been and will ever be But not just with We could have visiting tutors who are and only teach their areas of specialization for a semester But all that takes Matthew  Peregrine like Bwhahaha Uh What did I now you really are rewriting the curriculum and the I suppose it appears that you could make these kinds of changes and still keep the aspect of the college you but that is not They be still be fulfilling the role of tutor the tutors who do maintain some outside contact were less than stellar in the classroom You could hire a specialist for a semester to teach about the medieval for just one Although maybe give a Friday night lecture or two  YOU TAKE THAT BACK No That is not at all what I am Scott Weinberg Michael Beitia wants to be unblocked and see your comments if you wish Now we must this sucks sad that people think this would be changing the The curriculum remains the John I admire your fortitude I have been blocked by Michael No wonder this thread does not make any Edward they have no lectures to They have zero They could make Effing I still think the requirements for research are antithetical to the requirements for teaching You could have for Seamus for a semester to teach passed away But one could take steps to ensure this stuff was informing them and helping not hurting their Decaen is So incredibly smart and One of my favorite And be known for No one is going to get what saying so Does Decaen rhyme with or with or I get you And as far as the talked to who came from for say it takes more time to prep for a seminar than for a lecture the degree from TAC is like a degree from without all the technical skill It absolutely would change the You take for granted what the school now and that somehow it would remain the same while you added this and changed Certainly changing this book or that particular reading would not alter the but what you are after really is something I think you underestimate what it takes to create and sustain an institution like keep Because in a lecture you can control the course of the questions to a greater degree than you can control the TAC seminars The curriculum stays the you happen to be who just A seminar does not take more time to prepare than a but a tutorial There are some circumstantial things keeping tutors from doing research such as finishing their doctoral thesis and having a huge family By I meant happens in a classroom at Andres graduated from TAC When he left the whole thing went For The tutors need to have such a heavy teaching TAC could cut it in half And hire twice the be all for  Matthew There needs to be a bestiary in the to bring it all and to make it possible to integrate the medieval with the modern in the Ivy League As long as they wait four or five years before doing Is there a TAC called tenure No it called Permanent Appointment and pretty different than tenure Who shuts up because no one is listening on Do tutors have rights at LOL not sure what the diff more a speculative guy  The seminar is at least should ordered to the expression of reasoned does not aim at therefore the conversation can go here and there so long as the students are getting a chance to practice speaking about serious is why Homer and Plato get so badly But the tutorial has a different that end being knowledge and therefore the conversation cannot just go here or It must resolve to not much preparation is needed for but a tremendous amount of preparation is need for a Is there a Category of rights for the but not the what this whole thread is I thought this thread was about all That sounds There should be a support group and families of Is freshman Euclid a seminar or And what is Jeffrey were you a your Participants If you buy that distinction between seminar and then it seems to me you can begin to distinguish excellent tutors from those less Some allow a tutorial to get lost like a Others try to make a seminar resolve to  I am a fallen away TAC Freshmen Euclid is a not NeverEnding Is TNET a gnostic or an apologetical How It should actually be because Bond was before my in the Jurassic Three From to the reason I should have prepared more for Euclid than Were you there when Mike or Mark Langley was been treating you like a I blame the everyone is a peer on TNET The nature of freshman mathematics is such that it requires a lot more preparation than Even Once you teach a tutorial a few yah got been around a few blocks in and out of the And I do NOT think that TAC tutors have the time to keep their intellectual life going by writing and The best ones do anyhow the ones that Someone feel free to cut and paste what Beitia is I recall the name but I think we Please call me No All are peers on the Peterson Euclid takes very little It teaches itself I I spent hours preparing for and loved every minute of those It look a lot of preparation for me maybe a unique It took me months to catch on but when I I loved I taught it to high school students Peregrine had Beitia can you see So Euclid is not preparation for I loved every minute of but it is so so well ordered the hardest parts to teach are the definitions The truth at top tier national liberal arts colleges they care dearly about And they often do that And they can easily find people who can also publish and conference without breaking a To be at many the research requirements are Anyhow my concern is for the The teaching stagnates when tutors and the minutiae of bk X Once I understood I really loved I spent hours with Cain learning Book Prop That was the pivotal moment in my life when I fell in love with People should go to see if they are inadvertently blocking anyone Michael unblock He is trying to communicate with Cain is amazing Tell him I went to Matthew Peterson is also right that it is a crazy buyers market out brilliant PhDs ripe for the picking if you teach a tutorial a few times it becomes but at TAC you move to another tutorial as soon as you master the At least that is what is supposed to Certain tutors were kept in certain places to minimize the damage they could I struggled with Euclid until Cain took me under his It was a bloody revelation for me when I finally grasped the Pythagorean Scott says that The Peregrine went to Michael Beitia I want University Administratir heads on I think increased dialogue between tutors and outside intellectuals would be an enormous From what I understand they are trying to move in that but not sure what that translates into in I do think that a guest tutor program would be a bad idea since it would destroy the integration which is so key to the you make PHds sound like tasty Then they could increase tenured jobs misses you Book Prop was pivotol for me But in a different If only the Ace came up the next not suggesting they simply try to be a top national liberal arts college and imitate those That would be no blocking me  I was called for Prop bombed Cain sat me down because I was not understanding Euclid at we spent three hours on that prop and the next day he asked for a volunteer to do I did it And I was TURNING moment for me at Scott Weinberg you are blocking he Scott Weinberg look here to see if blocking Michael Beitia  I block no MA is supposed to be sufficient for teaching should be rarer I do not think the liberal arts colleges care deeply about Many friends who have gone to the top schools testify that that is not Many come out having learned Freshman at TAC know more than almost all my fellow graduate students at That is no Also turning Senior year mathematics with have to distinguish teaching from what is being no aaah I can see you It was I who was blocking How utterly small and petulant of going back to I ideally people be expected to have a until they were like and had a brilliant It may have been from a while Then would actually mean something Richard How do you integrate math with Using the fundamental theorem of calculus Is a kind of metaphor or the implied premise of an  Perhaps the best seminar style teacher I have ever seen teaches at Washington I know many an Ivy educated and fantastic teachers at Claremont Michael Justice course is a hit online for a it is amazing what he does in a class that You teach at if you are a crap leads my soul to Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare by Edna Vincent Millay alone has looked on Beauty Sonnet I disagree about crap teachers at top They are If you have published a textbook or have made a name through then teaching matters not a  the point You want TAC to have a better name for tenure I just want Goldman Sachs beating down my IT AINT HAPPENING My goal in philosophy is to influence papal policy IT WILL BE and you like Get behind me Edward Langley Finally excommunicating those execrable Molinists Sending out the SWAT inquisitors to take out all them and NNL types even get me started about kumbaya I would totally give you the of peace introduce liturgical swing with a and wiggling fingers moving away I Liturgical But Matthew the has never been well connected for them Toronto types The real Thomist travels long distances to find the last faithful guardian of the tradition and then carries the secret until he can pass it on to the next  You mean in matters of faith and in what the Church I think speaking of Does math give language to Serious talking about the secret teachings known only to the YES I get  Where can I go to find this secret Those for whom never passes their lips without a curse hahahahahahaha The quest is and the path And the way known to only a few I can do You must first demonstrate in ancient the asses what was that pons is the right angle is more is the special case Pythagorean theorem is  is the pons asinorum special case of VI  that is is that the a triangle has two equal the angles at the base are The truth is that most of the top schools are empty I have had many of my best high school students initially reject my advice to go to TAC and instead go to Princeton Georgetown or William and Mary After one disappointing each of them transferred to TAC and discovered a world of real learning rather than the sophistry being dished out at these prestigious institutions of higher Perhaps some of you know Jenny is now a Peter teaches at Wyoming and Matt could be No doubt they would have been more had they not but thank God they went to TAC and became failures in the The demonstration was often said to be the point at which people who do math would why I suggested it My logorhea stops at the careerist called on Tuesday but could only do But I could do I got But why does it is it the same thing as the rose is the woman is a the woman is or where you can show that similar and similarly constructed heads work as well as the squares in I The final step of the first stage of the journey is the fabled a syllogistic actually not as difficult as one of the neighbouring thou shalt interpret the following verse Good luck befriend at thy The faery ladies upon the Thy drowsy nurse hath sworn she did them spie Come tripping to the room where thou didst sweetly singing round about thy Strew all their blessings on thy sleeping She heard them give thee that thou shouldst still From eyes of mortals walk Yet there is something that doth force my For once it was my dismal hap to hear A Sibyl with crooked That far events full wisely could in long and dark prospective Foresaw what future days should bring to said can you it Shall subject be to many an all his brethren he shall reign as Yet every one shall make him And that cannot live from him Ungratefully shall strive to keep him In worth and excellence he shall being above he shall be below From others he shall stand in need of Yet on his brothers shall depend for To find a foe it shall not be his And Peace shall lull him in her flowery Yet shall he live in and at his door Devouring War shall never cease to it shall be his natural property To harbour those that are at What what what mighty if not Your learned can loose this Gordian KUMBAYA showed The sign of Hand Hitler has yet to appear YOU are For suggesting my favorite tutor is a less than awesome tutor ignorant women I think what happened was I understood the Pythagorean theorem on one but not at that deeper level of In you always get briefed before something Make sure your freshmen get At they brief They always tell you in advance when to stand up and shout Jeffrey I tell people to go to TAC as and wonderful what you did for those get me started on the Big Empty out The Nothingness a slightly rash TAC is not so much about cheering as about I could do the death star but I get I just I why we seem to about how TAC might be Or perhaps we I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the Big We want to change the Or the of the school that poem above you the long one in heroic Could this form fly all other things being The same same TAC has a knack for producing graduates who disagree on everything expect that TAC is we agree about most That is why we have to find such weird stuff to argue God is Worship alma The heroic never Whereas I would not have a problem with changing aspects of the but not the overall what I am Maybe only for a Modern content makes it sound Joel HF is catching I think it may So scrap the content and strive for maybe then it would The bestiary is But pedantry and playfullness go hand it If one was to get a TNET what would it look lines in heroic Each in pairs of two of Straight down the middle of your A DNA I sit me down to slay the troll Who lately down the thread doth I bring the trusty mouse to The keyboard too is also I think TAC should just be up front about If what you TAC get you there Couplets with chiasmus are They The Thread is too much with Gregorian Chant can heal damaged WHAT is going Someone is seriously messing with our This is the most mysterious I feel like someone invented a rabid Christendom grad just to lure us all into meaningless dispute with a O for a thread of Catherine you are soooo behind the Catherine all is shadow in the unfolding of the world spirit that is TNET I lost my place in the I lost my mind here But that had already started long Batter my heart We are discussing how the use of NFP affects the number of jobs for philosophy if you read long your mind will reappear in the eternal return of the Thanks for the The Peregrine and a gentler Scott Weinberg came to life in his We have traversed leagues since those I found It has become universal with the spreading of through understanding spirals in infinity chiasmus DNA in heroic couplet but serves the virtuous mind to wake As the small pebble stirs the peaceful The centre a circle strait Another and still another first it will His country and next all human Wide and more of the mind Take creature of We are also preaching the Secret Teachings of As we approach I feel a presence I have not felt for a long Is Weinberg completely a Is fictitious Weinberg making sport of us a sister These are days of An era of the Discussion and friendly debate about educational reform and Secret societies But will it all hold Could the days of darkness and gnashing of teeth Are there unlocked doors behind which lie veritable bestiaries of We shall Catherine Chiasmus is like DNA is like then splicing them in reverse The Big Angry doth like a DNA like what metaphor like identical or a reflection in a pool I hear the rumbles of a Or perhaps it is a nonono metagism is it only what is the gnostic with Math stoops to purging metaphor of admixture of error And the sweet muse of orthography abideth not with how does it I do not feel that I can help but post on this please Brownie points to Jeff for that Star Wars one plus a squared plus b all a is Beatrice is a DNA Evening Hawk From plane of light to wings dipping through Geometries and orchids that the sunset Out of the black angularity of riding The last tumultuous avalanche of Light above pines and the guttural The hawk His wing Scythes down another his motion Is that of the honed we hear The crashless fall of stalks of The head of each stalk is heavy with the gold of our he is climbing the last light Who knows neither Time nor and under Whose the swings Into Long The last thrush is the last bat Now cruises in his sharp wisdom Is and star Is like over the If there were no wind we we hear The earth grind on its or history Drip in darkness like a leaking pipe in the Robert Penn Warren goddess of the century Math is like the cystalline sphere upon whom attendeth the warring stick whipping I spy No arguments shall escape my lips unless they don the rosy trappings of Waiting for someone to juxtapose dark with You you just I will not serry terms to slay the but will bedazzle his eyes with the wine dark seas of poetic While the dawn breaketh During the catalog of the I shall never catch his math struck through the hollow of the sending his armor clattering about his syllophor and he spoke a megasism that no two such as men are today could have syllophored Do these below have the same thing in at the DNA level of one plus one equal squared plus all a is Beatrice is a They are all caught up in the transcendental unity of goodness and truth that will and all but the it is metagism This can be seen in the formal structure of the if true transcendental unity then they need to have something similar at their that at the DNA level of I think that I shall never see a Thread as lovely as a Surely the DNA level of gnosis is beyond our petty categories of and it is more like the of and breaker of cast his syllophor and the dark death danced about reason That is beautiful and I have to go give Ellie a dont dis on Heidegger See Translation Beauty is the the thread is all Ye know on and all ye need to that and diss on Heidegger Approaching As a midpoint of infinity Yet Not without limit Or any thread at all The question is of the the thread is Yggdrasil reaching its ashen branches into the metagismic aether Exhibit Ye elves of standing lakes and groves And ye that on the sands with printless foot Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him When he comes By whose weak masters though ye I have bedimmed the noontide sun the devil is in The quality of Threadness is not The rose is beautiful Beatrice is a rose is DNA splitting and adding the genetics of beauty to Mercy is a town in And graves at my command have waked their and let them by my so potent The love their tea in The of Mercy is not Of course the Tempest is of the Australia knoweth mercy but waiteth in every shadow with some new horror for the unsuspecting I feel called to ask what Hamlet would do were he to approach He would thrust it with a bare To thread or not to That is the Lear would divide the thread among his daughters and Matt Nolan and Peter Kwasniewski are here on the Book of Jeffrey in case you already And the thread claims yet more Your mercy knows no and crack your You cataracts and spout Till you have our the The quality of this thread is not It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place It is twice It blesseth him that gives and him that takes Let us return to the clearing where the disclosedness of Dasein is Daseins own Do not go gentle into that long thread For it is the ever fixéd that looks on storms and is never shaken a knitting party I like My wife has been knitting me a scarf for about a year The little Cricket sings a song of A song of in eternal If little Crickets sing of things Then how much more can we sign of His Being and Twine Samantha to be Goyette and I basically waged war against each other for four semesters I like to think that he is I like I do not like his utter acceptance of of practically everything he Augustine is where all Justus quidem tu si disputem verumtamen justa loquar ad Quare via impiorum Thou are indeed if I contend With so what I plead is Why do ways and why must Disappointment all I endeavour Wert thou my O thou my How wouldst thou I than thou dost thwart the sots and thralls of lust Do in spare hours more thrive than I that life upon thy banks and brakes leavèd how lacèd they are again With fretty and fresh wind shakes birds not I but and breed not one work that O thou lord of send my roots Father Gerard Manley Oh I think I had the same argument with Goyette about Augustine that I had with Big Angry earlier in the And I have Goyette for I had Paietta But Augustine was basically the best Thomist before With apologies to Matthew Arnold The web is calm The thread is the moon lies fair Upon the on the French coast the light Gleams and is the cliffs of England Glimmering and out in the tranquil Come to the sweet is the from the long line of spray Where the sea meets the you hear the grating roar Of pebbles which the waves draw and At their up the high and and then again With tremulous cadence and bring The eternal note of sadness Sophocles long ago Heard it on the and it brought Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow Of human we Find also in the sound a Hearing it by this distant northern The Eternal Thread Was at the and round shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle But now I only hear Its withdrawing to the breath Of the down the vast edges drear And naked shingles of the let us be true To one for the which seems To lie before us like a land of So so so Hath really neither nor nor Nor nor nor help for And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and Where ignorant armies clash by Marke but this and marke in How little that which thou me It me and now sucks And in this our two bloods mingled  But not But all this play is I never did quite understand your love of Mark on the other there was a Was being operative in more ways than The syllogism is breaking two threads Knitting one I bump into Clark frequently at I need to him When that I was and a little tiny With the wind and the A foolish thing was but a For the rain it raineth every But when I came to With the wind and the knaves and thieves men shut their For the rain it raineth every But when I to With the wind and the By swaggering could I never For the rain it raineth every But when I came unto my With the wind and the With still had drunken For the rain it raineth every A great while ago the world With the wind and the But all our play is And strive to please you every has a rolling where ever years or each tutor gets a sabbatical always thought this would be a good idea at as Twelfth night should be put out to pasture for several Except maybe for the  Every other Shakespeare event I run into is Twelfth Better than a Midsummer People should stretch their imaginations a little bit and do Comedy of Errors or As You Like It or Alls Well That Ends I have a fondness for Much Ado About Nothing I actually had a part in The Merchant of Venice while at That was a Much Ado is borderline at the a good but just about played out for the in Comedy of errors you have a confusion among a pair of twins with lots of beatings to I was in at Twelfth at the Arts Club on Granville on my way to and was talking to the clown after the then met this actor and actress from Ireland who invited me to their place the following weekend where we said the Rosary with their brothers and sisters and mom and and how I became but I think a brilliant I think my favorite part of the Merchant of Venice was chewing out my classmate for losing his wedding I really got to go off on Fun Here is no water but only Thread Thread and no water and the sandy road The road winding above among the mountains Which are mountains of Thread without water If there were water we should stop and drink Amongst the Thread one cannot stop or think hard to find a good play these Moliere generally pleases The Thread goes ever on and on Down from the door where it Now far ahead the Thread has And I must if I Pursuing it with eager Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands And whither I cannot all Threads that wander are Go to ye make trial that ye all may Fasten ye a thread of gold from and all ye facebookers lay hold yet could ye not drag from heaven to earth Matthew counselor not though ye toiled But once he likewise were minded to draw with all his then should he draw you up with very earth and sea Thereafter would he bind the thread about a pinnacle of and so should all those things be hung in By so much is he beyond gods and beyond stoops to is a good one We are strangers and Better than are the and we are the weavers of I sing of and a man of Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the Things fall the centre cannot The NeverEnding Thread is loosed upon the The tide is and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is The best lack all while the worst Are full of passionate An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of A rolling stone gathers no Write ye long threads while ye Old Time is still And this same Thread that never ends today Tomorrow will be O of the NeverEnding I may be too eager for this thread to reach I see Queen Mab hath been with She is the and she comes In shape no bigger than an On the of an Drawn with a team of little atomies Athwart noses as they lie Her made of long The cover of the wings of The traces of the smallest The collars of the watery Her whip of the lash of I would not take a thread or a sandal or anything that is lest you should have made Abram I sing of warfare and a man at war Peterson has turned you all into  threadbugs is free or open verse the only form of poetry that would work And the connection between and and faith and Poetry and Mathematics A radical reform of teaching and learning in a small province of the modern academy Is there a gnosis central like that regulates how explicit these connections may it just reminds me of intelligent Her completed shroud shone like the sun or the weaving and unweaving like nature on the cosmic loom and like The thread of Unpicking and stitching Does this make any The American A Mindful Beauty Joel Cohen What poetry and applied mathematics have in common what is the web you and its like the lyre and the weaving together Is math like weaving Is the Universe like and Catherine I think what a lot of people miss in his stuff on predestination is that very focused on the heresy of the If there had been a stronger Stoic contingent in his I think what he wrote would have sounded more like what the Pelagians combined with a human affinity for Pelagianism makes it hard to understand his stuff on predestination Things coming to be and things passing Each being a union of the vertical and horizontal threads the cross at the heart of all Matter and Like Things similar in Thomas is a lot gnarlier than Augustine on the predestination vide RGL on the matter Does the Sacred Monster get T I think so How people through extracted forms informing the mathematical equations imitating Note that Odysseus imitates this weaving when he lashes together the mast and keel in order to preserve himself after Zeus destroys his I go to a picnic for a few hours and come back to find everyone drunk and PB as a Pythagorean What is going I went to frontal lobotomy was the The word and the word are the same in no one post the video of Spock playing the Bringing to mind that poignant rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal rather have a bottle in front than a frontal I see you were classically For viewing Star Trek Original Series TOS Spock Vulcan Lute Lyre Prop Replica This prop replica lute is an exact duplicate of the uncalled I went whiskey tasting next inflict his Bilbo song on us Was it a whiskered whiskey Dialectic is an unknitting of the and knitting It undoes then reconnects in scientific   Thanks lost the My son doth join us Scott that sounds like music in the aveum I have a proposal for Matthew After we reach I think Thread Awards should be Let me suggest a few and hopefully all of you will add Best Most Most high But Pere left He see his awards With varying from They shift the moving Toyshop of their Where Wigs with with Beaus banish and Coaches Coaches This erring Mortals Levity may Oh blind to the Thread contrives it My son just got his first Facebook Can I have an honorary degree from at the tender age of First you must complete THE  son of to the What is the value of an honorary  Best adaptation of a classic Best image Best best original composition Enthymeme unweaves and predicates the heart on universal Metaphor unweaves the and predicates the imagination on I hope not a glass do not throw this book Refrain from the unholy pleasure Of cutting all the pictures Preserve it as your chiefest have you never heard it said That you are heir to all the your hands were never made To tear these beautiful thick Your little hands were made to take The better things and leave the worse They also may be used to shake The Massive Paws of Elder And when your prayers complete the your little tiny hands Were also I to pray For men that lose their I need to teach my son that just because I was intellectually unable to get a real now seen it all Spock made an entrance on this Next thing you be law has yet to be fulfilled   What is an online discussion grows the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches The Producers trailer Producers Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom make money by producing a Mel directorial I gotta cardboard the funniest line in movie I CALL you my little Upon the title Because a manner rude and wild Is common at your The Moral of this priceless work rightly Will make a little Unnaturally Do not as evil children Who on the slightest grounds Will imitate the With wild unmeaning Do not as children badly Who eat like little And when they have to go to bed Will whine like Puppy Who take their manners from the Their habits from the Indulge the loud unseemly And never brush their But so control your actions that Your friends may all child is dainty as the And as the Owl  not a real but genius no Have you ever seen The Palm Beach Story by Preston It may have some lines that are even but I will The Microbe is so very small You cannot make him out at But many sanguine people hope To see him through a His jointed tongue that lies beneath A hundred curious rows of His seven tufted tails with lots Of lovely pink and purple On each of which a pattern Composed of forty separate His eyebrows of a tender All these have never yet been But who ought to Assure us that they must be let us never doubt What nobody is sure up has to be in the running as if discussing funny movies and Old has to make an The Bear can be a rough and tumble Who care for in the Practice and embrace And never mock a prophet or a As he was walking along the some boys came out of the town and jeered at out of they out of He turned looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled of the Kings For the Lord loves he will not forsake his Paul Mall Cop funniest movie of the century so imho My sister named her psycho cat Mortimer despite the fact that the cat turned out to be Preston Sturges Sin of Harold his fate made him a fugitive he was the first to journey from the coasts of Troy as far as Italy and the Lavinian shores Across the lands and waters he was battered beneath the violence of the gods for the savage  eternal anger and many Arma virumque cano sufferings were his in war until he brought a city into being and carried in his gods to Latium troiam qui primum ab oris fatam Mel character recites these lines near the beginning of Man Without a tot volvere casus thats me is better than Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public and judicial Proceedings of every other And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Records and Proceedings shall be and the Effect The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several A Person charged in any State with or other who shall flee from and be found in another shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he be delivered to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the No Person held to Service or Labour in one under the Laws escaping into in Consequence of any Law or Regulation be discharged from such Service or but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be New States may be admitted by the Congress into this but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more or Parts of without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United or of any particular The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of and shall protect each of them against and on Application of the or of the Executive the Legislature cannot be against domestic Fagles FTW If Virgil then Dante cannot be far After the thread culminates with Forgive the Swan for its assertive It has a home and family to Squawk if you use poetry or But always keep the ones you love from The ugly duckling hath become a Chesterton said Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between There is no And then went down to the Set keel to forth on the godly and We set up mast and sail on that swart This thread was better when it discussed a topic and sought to find answers or at least challenged a question or statement which was posited as but it has fallen to post count Now it is just an auditorium of grade kids attempting to have the last clap of an applause mon mon Clap I actually was here for what was said not how much was yawn How strange to prefer quality to Well propose a question is being a blowhard or being discussion will return not too late to seek a newer world Here are some random questions I would like to What is the greatest fine Is Hemmingway a great Greatest living Greatest living your pick Concerning I think Short and Happy Life of Francis may qualify as a great short After not much of a no aquinas He was even as a novelist a great short story writer what is pietas in the pius doing the will of Jupiter Founding the eternal city Following his heart Is there really any greater warrior than Christ who vanquished death but he does  How ie aeneas Jesus the judo master who appears defeated but then gains the victory how does I see now John Aeneas or posts are Festina lente Aeneas does not personally overcome but his founding of the city that incarnates the eternal rule of is an amazing anticipation of victory over death and the subsequent role that Rome would play in that great I marvel at insight that rule was to be But how does Aeneas found He plants his sword in the body of The Latin for and is the condere sub pectore condit then what is the meaning of I took it quite I have always loved Homer more than but I am awed by presentiment of our desire that what is eternal be incarnated in the For the eternal realm of Olympus and the world of men remain separate For the eternal and the here and now come together forever in While Virgil seems to have viewed this nevertheless he was right beyond his wildest Turnus is the new Achilles who must be destroyed by the new Hector once the remnant of Troy has fulfilled the will of First Greece conquered but ultimately Troy conquers sub well it seems i have it all upside Have to get off my head The founding Why in the I But as I Aeneas become righteously angry when he sees the belt on Turnus which depicts the destruction of Troy by The belt represents the order of civilized life which Rome will now establish on earth for all To tell the truth i am horrified by what i see in the Why is righteous anger or And what is depicted is not order though it is beautifully beautiful but Is the ending shocking just to us Was it intended to be The I is the belt of Pallas which depicts the right order of political anger when he sees the belt moves him to plant the sword which brings the old world to an end and establishes the new order according to What god can now unfold for me in song But as to the i see that Aeneas brings destruction upon the Saturnial peace of but i will have to look at it What god can now unfold for me in song all the bitterness and butchery and deaths of now by now by the Trojan each in turn throughout that O was it your will that nations destined to eternal peace should have clashed in such tremendous I think answer is What appears on the belt of mentioned in Book X at line is first described in Book line Check it out and see what you but what possible happiness for Lavinia and their It does not seem to be about personal happiness and reunion in Were it about personal Aeneas would never have left He was helping her to build up the city of mortal enemy when Jupiter ordered him to leave and fulfill his There we see piety insofar as he subordinates his will to that of the common good and Divine Providence I never thought see this or be there for Guess TEN THOUSAND Wow Earlier Aeneas carried his father on his back and held his son by his present and future he left Troy to begin his journey to found that species of the virtue of justice which demands special reverence toward God the the and each of which gives the gift of life and therefore can never be Cheers I will have to look at it in the morning but deka myria is not too late to seek a newer Push and sitting well in order smite The sounding for my purpose holds To sail beyond the and the baths Of all the western until I It may be that the gulfs will wash us It may be we shall touch the Happy And see the great whom we much is much and We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and that which we we One equal temper of heroic Made weak by time and but strong in will To to to and not to congratulations on your diligence and hard The Never Ending Thread is Jonathan How are you NOW just getting involved in My SAT scores were TAC only accepted me out of loyalty to my But I think intelligence is overrated I have been young and am now and never have I seen any evidence that more intelligent people are more Same with worldly I think my dining room is better than that of the smart people who went to prestigious schools and made it big in the Pater where is I agree with Matthew up to a point on TAC tutors needing a little more fresh I think they should definitely get sabbaticals ever seven my Stift Heiligenkreuz My graduate school was pretty I used to dorm in what was an old My bedroom was literally steps away from an old Gothic It was really one of the most beautiful dorms Pater Edmund is one of the most erudite people I have ever and one of the happiest I am pleased to make your Pater Edmund your brother was in my class at The only problem with your dining Pater Edmund is the very unappetizing mensam ut ad written on the   Where did you go to graduate school  You are making me want to be a monk Pater Edmund Dominican University right outside of lovely I ended up rooming in the same place where I had my first holy Communion John SJ had given It to me in that very Providential how I ended up Crazy growth while I was at a Probably someone else already stated oh comments but I am a Wendy no Just cause is not grave Any first semester canon law or moral theology student knows they are distinct If even a pope used them then he is butchering language and failing to say much at and since he would know he is being More as different hands craft papal documents and the contradiction of just cause versus grave cause was because of one of those A just if any reasonable inconvenience A grave cause means a grave a physical or moral impossibility moral I do not mean only possible with but impossible to do within reasonable A just cause basically means it I these terms are not made up just for and we would be fools to gut out the meaning of terms and pretend they mean other things just because NFP These terms have a long history and a specific meaning in that They are not for a grave cause I may miss whenever it is physically or morally impossible to For a just cause I need not make up a lesser part of Mass I missed I came in at the I do not need to assert moral I can simply assert a rational such as I am meeting extended family for breakfast and cannot hang around for the next Mass to make up that a priest may be granted excardination for any just A bishop cannot refuse except for grave What this means is that a priest can request to leave the LA archdiocese and go to He gets the approval of and then asks His is traffic bothers him excessively and he needs clean That is a just Not a high standard says I want you to remain as you are popular with your congregation and a good Wel the priest would then appeal and he would win against That the priest is a good and the bishop wants him to remain is it is a but not a grave A grave cause might be am sorry but you are the only priest that speaks Urdu and we need an Urdu speaking or if there is an extreme shortage of priests and the removal of this one would significantly affect the See the I know that sloppy papal ghostwriters have used I They are already imbued with they are not ad hoc The best is that spacing children requires only a just avoiding children a grave Or else we have a simple But John Paul II used the terms Yes I know that Chris West and others speak differently because they have never bothered studying the tradition and learning what terms actually But you will see that at when he uses just cause is always referring to When grave cause is it is used for avoidance of Either these are or frankly we have to reject John Paul as I dang well know that Pius XII used the terms correctly and as traditionally and I know JPII sometimes takes a word with an already established meaning and uses it differently word which he conflates with calling in on Edward the best Thomist before Thomas was Severinus Wendy you should see I mean reject but reject his use of fly back to those using them in the proper I think the distinction of mere spacing from avoidance works for understand these terms being used If I am then I fall back to grave not just Proportionality is after all a rational reason for one thing is not for But it only gives a starting just says take that to grave says take that to gravely inconvenient not Joshua can you give me a summary of the positions about which you are discussing with Wendy I apparently missed a Please and thank I think this thread needs periodic  too The Thread periodically certain dynamics of its through various prophets  Why do threads like this not happen in more reasonable places like the TAC Alumni page would be The Thread springs forth where it Well it was hour She essentially said that since it was a major the of the ordinary or something like since cause is this is weighty enough that any just cause will also be to be she is not the laxist But I do think whatever the the basic meanings are distinct and it would be just very bad and almost purposely misleading to ever use the term if you also meant as if those terms normally could mean the same And likewise I think the cause while still serious of for spacing is still different in kind than avoiding the decision to have no more or to set a seems to me to require a greater burden hey I just gave two births in months apart and physically need to I as I did in a much earlier to just use when speaking of avoids the and yes there is a NFP promoters harp on just cause and argue about NFP is necessary for all marriages and is the and will improve And if it that if because you are those people and in it also underscores that any use for the sake of doing the horizontal tango without producing babies requires something more than a slight I imagine she and I are not disagreeing all that And her point is very valid that the proportionality makes even a just cause more But I do think the proper terms are I am not sure I see it as a suspension of any aspect of the marital vocation a she put when used it in furtherance of the ends of that There is still a TAC alumni  it is secret and we have to let you Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Members Joined  There is also an official Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association  But the first one is the one where any chatting might happen it I thought we were referring to an era site that I knew of  Yeah that discussion site might still I checked in a long I am back to the horror of what appearing to be spamming by one was since not I could For five The Neverending Thread has  where were Hey Pater I read your The Daisy In the open In the close your Tell me I have Do you love or love me Will the horse and calf be Will the rain chase them Will you ask your And pixies out to Will they before they If you love let me If they implore you love me Again once more I have Adrw Hemmingway is not a great Caleb is the greatest living philosopher he will Greatest living novelist is Marilynne I like your Hemmingway was a great journalist  And a really good writer of short stories If math is the core language of then how come the most important things in life and being cannot be quantified by For the way several of the Native American Tribes converted from belief in a Great Spirit to and how they maintain their does not translate into the language of This being the why is math so central at Why is it so central to the when the proposal seeks to restore true freedom to Is math not so central to If it is maybe it is good no connection between TAC and modern Just I Hemmingway was not a great I like the idea of Thread Where are we on I think I deserve I think earned On that we can all agree But in lieu of an send donations to the TNET Best Most Most high Best adaptation of a classic Best image Best I would also suggest biggest and nominate Isak Where should I start with Robinson I read a single novel of hers There Just read then then if you would like something beautifully Housekeeping Best feigned Joshua Kenz one question I have for you is with regard to gravity in liturgical Example wondering There are a lot of polka masses in my find them totally gauche and of course there is no basis for but how gravely wrong are I have a hard time thinking about it because it makes me mad to think about it haha Best perceived insult best best ad hoc best one What are How do they Best from a fictitious throw me If anyone can find that needle in this I will send them a free Samantha well alright I just bought Gilead this fine Sunday morning I What are You regret Things which are so What would a Best Perceived Insult I think a solid contender for best feigned outrage Numbers are Maybe one should answer the question about what mathematical beings are Calling them the language of nature Figuring out why it is important in TAC If numbers then what are I can hear Molly basically all I remember from senior math even that would still leave us with the are and how do they you remember all those literalist people squinting with dismay as they tried to picture and laughing on the lied laughing on the Or was that just me I was one of those literalist Beitia for best insult And i think he competes with himself on He calls it I thought my senior section was going to lynch me first semester when Molly told me in have to take the final you already know but I got to sleep in that day I was at a conference last summer at which Marilynne Robinson but I was too shy to introduce myself to She has a new book coming out A Novel A new American classic from the Pulitzer author of Gilead and HousekeepingMarilynne Molly said something similar to It has helpful that in her Joel HF and another Joe were all Our merits  Pater Edmund thank you for this excellent I went to a lecture of hers once and got my copy of Home autographed Then I babbled about how much I was looking forward to another novel from but that she should take her but not too much It was embarrassing Gustin likewise could not tell the difference between me and Monica She also claimed that it was impossible for anyone to do so because we were in fact I have never read this I am afraid I have not made it into the century with my literary I take it she comes highly Molly Gustin was probably not wholly on top of her game when we were Pulitzer for Gilead that is an sadly And about This is so she on top of her game in the late If you somehow happened to be on her good she was great She liked me because of my but sadly I never had her in I did have her on my defense panel She thought my thesis was she lost   It looks as if this particular incarnation of the Thread is coming to a slow and painful May it rise from the ashes in a form more powerful than we can possibly By the I met your father this I am excited to study under him this The thread just wakes up Enlighten us ignorant Why are mathematicals essential to peace among the salvation and the restoration of genuine academic and why has the rest of humanity missed Forget it happy believing that you are just too intellectually advanced for someone like me to ever grasp what you are I was in the middle of a just take in on faith that you have solved the Thanks for your service to I have answers to all the questions I At least not answers that I would call anything more than either do We are just threadworn that I can heartily And sorry for my temporary lapse into At least you are genuinely trying to shed And my is there have been many instances of insincere so I blame in my limited TAC alum are the only ones asking the central question in light of The rest of the academic world has Answers all Klein Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of Algebra Klein Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin Are separated souls Commentary on The Origin of the Logic of Symbolic Mathematics Burt Hopkins presents the first study of Pater A person is an individual substance of a rational but a separated soul is not a then why are you praying to them Daniel Out of I have no problems acknowledging that separated souls are capable of Or many other then pretty much persons Separated souls are still individuated secundum through their order to right very weird but in that you might as well call them even with the proleptic instantiation We often imagine them And I would certainly not deny that to the little old lady in the metaphysically and that is Klein is Because of the above a problem more or less peculiar to other Scholastics dont fall into it as much I suppose if one thought being a substance accidental to being a person and that being in a relation of knowing and loving is then I suppose one would call them Is the sort of thing you have in just saying other scholastics often inflect save is and dictated by his read of Aristotle as you know account works by something almost like miracle mind was largely absent by the time I was absent gazing upon the forms When she did descend it was either to shed the reflected light of the radiance of the or to tell someone that they and I quote stupid as From a magisterial Is it fair to say that the Church takes when it describes the soul as forma With this it seems to me that it follows immediately that the soul is a principle of not a substance I only had her for where she was more consistently good and had relatively few I hear senior math was a bit hit or and when you yourself say or if no substantiality there at what is happening And the Church can describe the soul as forma corporis without committing to your since it commit to the Thomistic middle term there are the other scholastic My knowledge of scholasticism outside of Thomas is virtually Her senior at the was more miss than So and how very I had the pleasure of having Richard for senior and it was an unmitigated I admit the case is and not very But if you will permit a perhaps rather fanciful argument from Thomas holds that the separated soul is only a quasi It is a principle of substance and is still referred to Thomas even says in one of his commentaries on epistles that it is nigh impossible to demonstrate the souls immortality without This is primarily because the separated soul really make I think the reason Thomas is okay with this is because he recognizes that humans are not supposed to Our deaths are unnatural in a way that the death of plants and animals is The separated soul is not a human as it longs to be  Where does he claim the demonstration of immortality is And much of what is for the separated is restored the saints at in the order of I thought about this since senior but I seem to remember Nieto saying something like that when you and were at his house for dinner one John what does is my John I think it is in his commentary on His language is actually shockingly strong You need to understand what up with symbolic you turn to He gives you what you Joshua Kenz might I will try to look it up you could say that about that Kenz might That is there seem to be two doubts about this one is that what the Apostle says does not seem to be universally that Christians are confident in this life because they could say although our bodies do not possess any good things except in this which is yet according to the soul they have many good things in the other This can be turned aside in two in one because if the resurrection of the body is it is not yea it is to sustain the immortality of the For it is clear that the soul is naturally united to the body and is departed from contrary to its nature and per Hence the soul devoid of its body is as long as it is without the But it is impossible that what is natural and per se be finite as it and that which is against nature and per accidens be if the soul endures without the And the Platonists positing posited although this is if the dead do not we will be confident only in this In another because it is clear that man naturally desires his own but the since it is part of is not an entire and my soul is not although the soul obtains salvation in another not I or any since man naturally desires salvation even of the a natural desire would be  JA still like to hear more about what you alluded to that the other scholastics would handle it Thank you Pater but I think there is another even stronger Gentlemen I have to be off to but confuse arguments for the resurrection quote with discussions of the substantiality of the separated more perhaps later tonight re other but right about as I said Thomists tend to save the situation with a miraculum ex by having God miraculously preserve the spirits against But leave with one more easy to substract from but subtract from and still have a rationality existing so much so that can pray to I but you is quite a move and seems One is left then with but exactly what that means needs to be JA I think I am confusing the resurrection with the separated I only brought that up to reinforce the notion that the separation of the soul is highly The key text I was interested in is is not yea it is to sustain the immortality of the a lot has been said about the lack of practical options out of would you send your kids to Particularly given the lack of teaching Inclined towards depending on where the school is at at that It will get worse before it gets I But I would take a number of steps to ensure they are well informed as to the next step in ways I The thing if you are given to see clearly graduating from TAC necessarily hold anyone back from whatever they want to do For summers are I would have them do type work the first two summer and them the Plus use the time beforehand to Using summers that way is but it assumes no need to work and make But much depends on how the school turns post founders and my There are other places with different downsides and upsides that are much better on the My kids will all work crap jobs and internships when in I know many graduates who think money needs to be found for a summer program getting TAC kids out into charitable As far as internships and programs you are ultimately losing money and time if you doing this summer of junior Thornburg I want my kid to the school turns out I guess I in a certain But I think I disagree with something you said thousands of comments Matthew I think that of at the and generation of tutors were all worse than the I think that there was more of a but the best tutors while I was there were up there intellectually with the guessing your children are pretty Matthew they way you talk about what they are going to do in high during their I presume you do intend to give them some say in Andrews I was blown away by the opportunities that were presented for my sister at my first choice for my daughters right still a little ways but as of now be thrilled to see my kids go to Depends on a especially what the school is like in and what my goals and whether reconverted by I did try to convince my little sister to go and that was just last Of flexible and it depends on the But I am very aware of what parents who know the system do and do And any TAC grad needs to understand the opportunities a profesh liberal arts college can give their And basically imitate have my own especially by But really people need to know all the other fantastic educational options out there before they I think be in a decent position to remedy of practical failures As parents I mean fair I guess as a high school teacher I see the other the impact of parents who are certain that their children are going to live the lives the parents have chosen for Bekah Sims I was thinking more of the choice between TAC and the sort of schools Matthew was talking that sort of Or even a big university like UVA or schools that regularly place their students in prestigious graduate As a Hollywood your connections with be I say this as a TAC grad who is also a parent with at at Northpark studying nursing and the third currently applying to all the top chemical engineering schools she more to Never could have predicted any of Nope send mine there this of course the last name would probably preclude them from being accepted so the point is moot It like TAC have students get into prestigious I know of at least two grads who work Goldman and one who had an interview at This is just off the top of my  Molly Gustin was definitely out of it by the time I had She knew me and insisted for years before actually having me in class that she had had me in She tried setting me up with Once based on similar etymological meanings of last names If the entire class took the class we could have made it But they That is not them as much as her failing even if they really wanted to go she was excellent in and   I would but I just got home from Mass and have to run out just have to bwahahahahaha What does Kenz that New TNET while supplies last My children have each gone to a different the first to the second to DeSales the third to the University of the fourth to Providence and then transferred to and the fifth to AMDA in NYC conservatory to study I have four more children still at the sixth child being currently a senior in high While I think TAC is the best choice without it would not have been the best choice for each especially since they did not choose And as Bekah noted when asking Matthew about his children having any choice about how they might spend their you will find when it comes to college that you will have to take their choice into TAC is not for to be but I think its strengths and weaknesses should be presented to a child who is capable and interested so that he can make an informed an definitely We are preparing our feral offspring for Mad Max The meaning of my name she took from the root as being similar to kennen or and hence meaning say the girls but it was translated by Gustin as meaning And from there an inappropriate knowing of the you get the What Marie mentions above is so danger of parents wanting their children to live the lives the parents have chosen for and Jeffrey I did spend time on the looking into the but It was at A lot there Thanks Tutor match And here you folks were complaining that the tutors do enough for I will check out X Bond you may remember me as a TAC student of yours Marie Grimley at the If I had followed my I would have been a business major at Loyola Marymount and then I would have gone to Law Or Dan Daniel I think you are thinking of lectio or on But got to run I remember you but I did not recognize your married As you can I am still approving of the things you What are you I was principally wondering what those I tagged everybody else of would say if a child of theirs had an interest in but was I know there are lots of parents who give their children a choice between TAC and working at but I think anyone posted on the thread thus far would answer to that am better at Latin I ended up with an MA in Theology and I am presently teaching Senior level Theology at an Archdiocesan high school in Btw my Dad was won When I he told me he wished he had known about TAC when my siblings were choosing a because he was convinced I received the best That coming from a Scottish immigrant who never attended college but through passed the CPA exam and had his own very successful accounting Wonderful both about your teaching and your Does the high school actually support orthodoxy in the Or do you have to sneak it in where you Truth is I am inclined to send only a couple kids and TAC is on my short but I am thoroughly disillusioned with higher Learning a trade for most is financially and in other ways Jeffrey I am the Department Chair and have full support of our Admin local Superintendent and Bishops to teach the Catholic We are experiencing a real renewal All of our lay Theology teachers are grads of TAC or FUS both in my and our two part time Priests on the faculty are completely We are the first high school to implement this original Catholic Bible Study Tools for the Modern Church Verbum helps you study the Understand Gustin declared on multiple occasions that Boyer knows I will check out Thanks for the And congratulations on being department It amazes me to hear that such a place How many students are there in the high And do the other departments support the The professional Both my parents graduated from so I guess they saw what you guys are seeing My dad was pretty insistent that I get a real job and work a year or two before because older people often benefit more from TAC and because it would help me be confident about finding a job after pretty certain he was I hope to ensure that my children have marketable skills by the end of highschool and some on the job experience in the professional world before is your father one of the founders of the Lyceum in Or is that a different Was that who you were asking me about last We are a technically through Opened in Two buildings elementary in middle and high school in the Last PreK to Middle School High School I know the numbers have gone up this In our Board approved a Catholic Identity Committee to ensure our various curriculars are on We had to choose action steps per department which we are going to try to implement to improve Catholic identity so we have work to do but way better than the high school I Does he work with Luke Impressive It sounds like a great I wonder if it would be helpful to reverse the traditional expectations of college and high vocational studies are often easier to do well than the liberal arts and having professional experience might benefit approach to I think it is the work of grace is really that was my uncle Now getting things straightened Is he still at the but he is no longer the I asked about because I think he was at TAC in the late a grea I visited Mark is a good Happy students I have met a number of the Lyceum Very impressive what they are doing Mark and I may have overlapped at but I never had him in really too bad that Catholic high schools struggle to pay their teachers decent  Mark was in John and they were quite close that is not the real problem The bert teachers dont come for money that isnt I know John but he was not a student at TAC when I was teaching so I guess Mark and I did not I think whatever we do with our and that of our we need to be solution To do we need to shift our focus from why things went wrong in the the Church and and why we have proposed and to fix the We need to focus on The Logos is what binds the Hellenic tradition with the Christian The Logos is the The Logos is the imprint of every good it is imprinted on the all of imprinted on the DNA of stamped into the mathemtaical and onto the imprinted onto the metaphor and into the the essence of the Sacraments and intercedes in the creation of our Every good invention of from penicilin to water in the to clean to good food for the the Logos is at the heart of it the heart of Logic and the fullness of the Word of God and the Voice of His Church in Her So in all we we need to avail ourselves of the in Reason and Revelation and Not to force it on but just to present it in its various Catholic The Logos is the healing remedy between medieval science and modern Ethel Merman sings Coming Up One of her final had still  I think that the evolution of TAC has lead less toward the inquisitive soul and more toward the safe place for The while set up well for either grad school or professional life per earlier and it puts the student in rather my kids went into the or to a state school for or plumbers votech Plumbers have saved more lives than doctors the councils be called of the how the Church has flushed all the away I Liberal arts or engineering I actually started on the As to liberal I am writing her epitaph but maybe she is only mostly dead wherein lies my shadow of a hope but then I generally only see things in hues of gray and I think student debt is all that great compared to other better than graduating with a degree in gender studies and in no it but who take in debt at Princeton to start working at a hedge fund for a year Nobody takes in debt at Princeton why not have vocational studies at a You woodworking classes with specified projects and Or computer programming You could even do intensive math and science FOR miss bleary eyed literalist what is ok fine  Anywhere you have to take out in loans in probably somewhere that get you the king of starting salary Princeton is my point fair Even if my kids were so inclined to be rather they had a shot at a tenure track job Ivy league college financial is the exception rather than the you want your children to not have to worry about at least not be debt Yes and no about worrying about Too much very Too much probably I really think the issue of worrying about finances is way bigger than a TAC When we left my husband was in a sales job and I was at home with the The only stay at home mom in my neighborhood AND the one with the most We came to the Midwest he took a pay cut and we had a better standard of living here than we did in So when the kids went to I went to It is true that I would way rather stay at but we need the money and the health But given all that is I do see my work as In a culture based on contraception and there is undue pressure put on fathers today because you are trying to compete in a totally whacked Thankfully God gives each what each To those who would be destroyed by too He gives To those who would be destroyed by too He gives Boethius had it right on this That is a whole lot easier to say post but it put food on the I am not saying it post I am saying it hic et Librarianship has turned out to be a fairly ideal career for finance Sufficient money to live upon comfortably but not enough to corrupt my no sandwiches in your lunches because broke and out of but God thinks you eat too I was also fortunate to go to a graduate school that was fairly generous in financial aid so I got out of there without a lot of You are Michael Beitia about it not putting food on the But I would venture to guess that your finances suffer due to your adherence to the Open to now I know that God wants me to be poor because being comfortable would destroy Everything is we live in the best of all possible worlds Any other way of looking at it has bigger I live comfortably because just me I have to If I had a I would most likely be in your I know if the Pangloss method is the best method not Boethius and the we and many i know are getting serious extra So if your feeling the crunch it is a good sign probably be better off if I lived in but rather take a bullet than move back to Texas Chicago Everything will never be awesome if you are a you are living a life contrary to the But I bet your kids know you love even on the days when they have less food than you would Texas bad just bloody hot in the The heat was my favorite part Do you recall Sean character explaining to Eliot Ness the Chicago doesnt make it much And i am a the At least not Midwest And the winters are fairly Great scene in the Church when Sean character forget the asks Ness if he really want to get If I knew how to post film I would put it here for The Chicago Way The Untouchables Movie CLIP HD The Untouchables Movie Clip watch all clips  Are you all teachers at Catholic high  No The Lord hates a I did for one year many moons Not at a although I do teach Spanish I think I am the only high school teacher no i am on extended licking my wounds and chomping at the I love I do teach one Spanish class for adults might be starting a second one in the I really do enjoy Was the extended sabbatical of your own who crushes the actually my head was severe brain trauma and them and What i dropped our house on my I dont recommend it But as to i basically had to resign at the last places and still dont think i could have done The liberal arts catholic schools are a And its one of principalities and powers the things i have seen Thoreau talks about the farmer walking down the road carrying his farm at least the weight of the on his You did the old farmer one better and tried to put it on your As for your comment about the I completely We must get together some day and trade war aware of some of your war Jeffrey You are a hero of  As a model of doing what is right and fighting in spite of insane Truly I thank especially for your got Joel as a late response to your I do not plan to my children I am hopeful by the time they are or there that they will be able to make a largely reasonable decision about their school TAC was great for In it was nigh I regret going there for a My did not go to TAC and having gone to the summer she realized that she would hate HATE I am open to my children going to whatever place best suits I despise good or for things that are done for such tawdry purposes as getting a or having lots of such considerations will have no bearing on the counsel I give my I will encourage them to do those things that are good in But I am a and I will always be in Ferrier What a great Daniel undecided about making my children go to on the one hand are all the horror stories about people who were forced to go to On the other hand there are people like my cousin Pat Coughlin in a said that he was to his parents for making the best decision he or something to that He also said something like did freshman year for my sophomore year for my friends and junior year for the program I do think people generally overestimate how much teenagers grasp what is good for In my coming to TAC was like coming because of my atmosphere and because I was always more or less consciously planning to go to being at TAC seemed like the most normal thing in the God give us more fools like Daniel Lendman Oh still got to pay the and last I positions were there are a lot worse things than putting your children in a position to succeed more especially because teenagers know what is good for You have graced TNET with your esteemed Now I know the end is near Nor do adults often know good for But both teenagers and adults hopefully after proper by making choices and then dealing with Some children might benefit by being told where to go to but many would used to worry about the type of students TAC was During my time it seemed to me that TAC had moved from recruiting people passionate about the program but maybe not so much about the rules to people passionate about the rules and indifferent to the In other they were there because it was a safe Catholic and maybe they would even find a I remember my senior year a sophomore telling me she read Chaucer because her parents had told her it was Richard Delahide Ferrier may remember He had some choice words on the Since then met several younger and I think my concerns were maybe overblown a My wife and I both have younger siblings who graduated after us are still and there are still very many of the or so it seems to For a place like TAC to you need good students good never set foot back in the hallowed Shire since driving up Hwy and tossing an empty fifth of Jack out the window of I hear but All I know is that they somehow manage to find my address and send me letters begging for money no matter where I One of you jerks out there is selling me  jerk I send Kretschmer emails saying you make a year  I think the best plan in most circumstances is to require at least one year of some people should not read Like year The ye olde english would throw them Calling out solecism the olde pardon me for being It should be The Olde which would take Olde as a unit of Whole hearted agreement with Daniel Lendman lecture in the drones series focuses on one of the three basic attributes of the Abrahamic omniscient omnipresent and omnipotent so are would be a sort of a microcosm of who God Young preaches in the third before briefly explaining each God is a Predator one Texas megachurch bizarre lecture series Does comparing God to a drone make  Vox is not an authoritative source of this is definitely stretching because drones are not actually and not could they ever be those the fittingness of the metaphor comes into since Drones are not usually tools of anything other than the police or The power is present in all areas of the realm not only to punish but also to build To return to Daniel comment I have met too many people who are very smart and well formed in the Catholic intellectual tradition who did not go to TAC to think that anyone MUST go there like it or I left out the I figured you wanted discussion for the sake of more post I mostly shared it because it provoked a I think I would force TAC on my especially since my brother seem to fit into TAC very well but took to the Army like a fish to On the other I do think TAC provides an opportunity that available many other I would praise and recommend TAC very highly for its More than any one particular piece of book TAC helped me form give it to it good habits of thought and an desire to If all learning begins with a sense of it seems appropriate that every class begins with a one you may not have thought I probably would have done just as well overall for grad school by going to a different undergrad TAC is what made me interested in It made me interested in areas I would not have thought to look I do not think a standard school would have provoked me in this I think the habitus which TAC tries to foster in its students is well worth the time and even if one does not pursue a further This mean that everyone needs I really get fully into the entire search for truth at TAC until I got slapped around in a don rags for being arrogant and then fell in and out of love with Junior Math with Richard Delahide Ferrier also opened my eyes as And any shortcomings in personality or intellectual biases I gained were not taught to Those are on me and my fellow No tutor told me that I HAD to interpret Thomas in a certain TAC taught me how to articulate arguments and back them up an ability I can use in all areas of my life and a habit of thinking that was engendered in me by my four years forever be grateful to TAC for But I do agree that TAC is not for And no one should feel pressured into going there simply because their entire family John TAC relies on peer pressure to form the requisite Thomistic Like I it on me and the other alumni The waterboarding of Gilsonians was a bit over the But there is an unbroken line of pressure reaching back to when the tutors themselves were We learn any stinking a bit hard not to have some bit of pressure on you to go to TAC when of your siblings all went to the same as a first gen I have Me I was the first in my family to go then my brother And my brother got to be far more well known than Bairdo is still legend in certain What I did see was some to certain tutors as sole well springs of the Or at least how it stuck this humble And it was surprising that I did come out with certain views which were never explicitly but which I had picked up by Not saying those views were but I tend to read texts in a certain way without having been told that is the TAC way to read I think something other than peer He the result of actually knowing what the text says  You know my   He was a year or two ahead of kinda when I read I remember what it felt like to be new to that makes I just keep running into people that graduated long after he did that know a little I remember my first weekend he invited me to a cook out at the Heidegger was a boozy was fond of his sorry I got AAAAAAAAAAND Rene Descartes was a drunken drink therefore I Nietszche teach ye about the of the Socrates himself was peeeeeeermanently was a beggar for the Although reading Thomas makes me partial to Analytic philosophy in terms of but in terms of I too like the analytics in broad although they get a lot And analytic Thomists are although some of them need to realize that Frege and Aquinas are not the same person on Davies Analytic Thomist is an oxymoron there i said it Yes and the analytics have a keen sense of the necessity of dialectics that the scholastics would Their execution of is often But rather deal with an analytic philosopher than an The two schools of thought occasionally clash in my The main failing of most Analytics are the Humean metaphysical That and a which is perhaps the same Same difference About the Please join us tonight at at EST Joe will talk to Jonathan about his book call Blessed Book of They will talk about the literary genre of the Catholic Please check out the website for the book Fiat Ministry Network Fiat Ministry Encouraging All to Say Yes to Jesus Christ My biggest problem with analytic philosophy is that it takes it self far too seriously Wittgenstein it is a kind of unreality Was trolling all of us just a shameless plug for your I really like Wittgenstein on the I want to go One of my good friends had gone there of and his freshman year he was SO It really turned me off the So I was dead set on I somehow got persuaded into going to one of the very first summer Owen Jen Danner DellaCroce I Marco Mary Susanka etc were my I fell in love with it the moment I stepped on After I totally forgot about I had a difficult four years there the program was challenging going straight from homeschooling to college was probably NOT the best idea but profoundly grateful for the education I But it for  The Mostly German Philosophers Love Song A very silly song by LYRICS are I am not fond of German Although I did enjoy But love the Mostly German Philosophers Love I feel like Michael prefers sloppy philosophy while John prefers precise I wanted to burn my Hegel so many kinda funny in class at there is a definite tension between the students and tutors who like big giant of the kinda statements and those who want to work out every niggling detail of two sentences in the The current analytic continental war is an eternal I think the of the type in I was better at big picture analysis than individual sentence I felt that those who split sentences could miss the forest for the I am the I love continental and a GUTofP kind of guy but I call it vague or definitely more I might not have been completely unbiased in my presentation of the I think anyone here was arguing that prestige should be pursued for its own a means to and and an increasingly important like Matthew Peterson TACers need to know the and to that end tutors need to know Though I guess Daniel is asleep I think I have been accused of pursuing tawdry feigned The real question are you into sloppy philosophy or clear and precise John Boyer what do you like about I enjoyed On Certainty and Culture and His major works not so The Tractatus was like an LCWR labyrinth and I find the Investigations very tedious If you think Wittegenstein is actually precise and clear got a bridge to sell you all just gnostics TAC produces arrogant grads that think they need the magisterium Wittgenstein No Heidegger  wrong Edward one conversation I had with Nieto that you enjoyed was him pointing out all of the fallacies in the Tractatus what is objectionable in Never says anything so TAC to say but if you reject Aristotelian logic out of you will make logical mistakes Says a Even if are what his method is extremely important Analytic vs Continental is as wrongheaded as Republican vs Democrat In terms of basically vague precise but a difference between analytic and  Plato was the original continental philosopher and Aristotle the original analytic but all from there a minor deviation in the Have you studied a lot of continental Bonaventure Aquinas you even Just Beans and Just outside of the TAC I know what people are all focused up on take a helping of Quine any I just threw up in my mouth a little Analytic philosophers talk to Thomists like third party candidates read Being and time and bits of commentary on I should Descartes analytic British Empiricists analytic got some skeletons in the old closet listened to Sokolowski lecture on various a class on and Human I did a seminar with him on essence of back in the TAC senior days an amazing Did he basically Or could he do the TAC seemed to this was about a minute seminar ages ago It was the TAC thing like Neumeyr but not quite The only problem is that he expects you to actually be able to So I plan to audit his courses after I finish this Being and Time I found to be less worthy of I think it is because the youth always seem to be his studies of other things are more worthwhile IHMO but clearly far from expert The good thing about my class on Being and Time was that the Heideggering exposition in my paper was virtually indistinguishable from the I would say the fruits of continental philosophy are more sickly than analytic I think the method is Thomists been philosophers since Bacon Agreed Is there any truth to devotion to Machiavelli was very strong by the early You meet a TAC grad who babbling about how WONDERFUL The Prince was and how you just UNDERSTAND it if you thought it was amoral or a Anyone know if there was any personal always had a soft spot for the But mostly because Machiavelli is a ridiculously good probably read the Prince more frequently then any other But I think any truth to a Straussian connection among the there have been first class Thomists since maybe not even the more but there are some greats out there if you By I was referring to stature in not stature After all John of Thomas was or if there were they wouldnt tell CryptoStraussians I MacArthur one to hold anything There was no personal connection between Leo Strauss and Ron though McArthur knew Harry the top Straussian at McArthur completely rejected the I know this for a fact because McArthur made that perfectly clear when I interviewed to teach at Having come from the University of Chicago where I studied under a number of the Straussians Cropsey and I was asked by McArthur if I was stuff will kill he told me quite But I did not need convincing because I had directly experienced their destructive i was I see nothing to indicate No need to I got the I addressing your but just the question of any and I studied for a year with a Straussian at He is partly why I essay on Thucydides Strauss and History of Political really helped me in my Freshman I we should not have been reading outside But it was really and It helped me along to thinking about the intention of the author on a deeper Strauss is but his followers were mostly Whether they were true to the teaching is hard to His book on Machiavelli is well worth Very clever how he shows how Machiavelli used Livy to secretly attack his real the Then one realizes that Strauss himself is using the same His on Machiavelli is really his way of secretly attacking The at least every one I hated I agree with Daniel that one can learn a great deal from some of their But their overall mission as McArthur I never read essay on but essay on Thucydides in The City and Man is i second on their It was masked at UD and most my fellow grads didnt see I was already quite certain about I even spoke to him once on the The apparent Strauss infestation came I was wondering about The Prince and whether there where TACers lauding But some of the Straussians are The first Straussians I encountered at Kenyon College did a good job getting students to question their moral The irony of it is that those students who were truly convinced that relativism was false then became a problem for the These Straussians felt it was their job to convince most students to be good citizens of the regime supporting the ancients against the but then to convince the few select philosophers that the moderns were really They promoted an exoteric teaching for the a good an esoteric teaching for the is no natural basis for Very I am not fascinated with writings and ideas some of the essays are the essay on the after my years in what interests me is the activities of Strauss within the larger German and community et There may be tutors who like things about Strauss on the but never run into a Straussian in class I missed I never experienced anything like widespread admiration for the in the closest thing to that is when one of my classmates asked me to stop comparing every work of political philosophy to Strauss obviously had a problem with the Nazis and his investigation into the ancients seemed to have been fueled by his quest for an answer to the problem of what he seemed to find in Plato was a confirmation of the Nazis The Nazis position was all about the will to we need a to keep the many from knowing I think Strauss simply could not bring himself to accept that Plato actually thought there was an objective order to the The Forms for Strauss are just an elegant lie that has a salutary effect on political The Straussians even turn Thomas into a When Thomas quotes Paul at the beginning of the Summa about providing not solid the Straussians seize on that as evidence of a secret it turns is also a heard stories about wacky Shakespeare Butcher jobs on He too was a why do you think so many nihilists in America and gravitate towards the right wing rather than the It fascinates me that so many of these early German including Strauss and are politically speaking part of a larger conservative revolutionary milieu that arises in Weimar National Socialist but part of that broader intellectual The later nihilists of also seem to gravitate to conservative As it turns for the least the ones I is really no great thinker who thinks there is an objective moral the Thomas was an atheist because the five ways are so Is Benardete a possibly because hardline nihilism is less conducive to an Epicurean More fantastical promotion of the first Catholic bestiary written in How does God use animals to lead us to Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of Good I really When I would challenge them on that very other why be one thing rather than the other if there is no support for morality in would get huffy and say something about how most men need a myth to believe Why they cared about the many poor they could not One of the favorite words of the Straussians is They defend the ancients against the moderns least because it is more to believe in But since has no meaning if there is nothing to be salutary their position makes no But the cynic in me says that equally distributed on each side so they can act out their Nietzschean power plays against each In my they were all conservatives they thought there was nothing really to But Nietzsche is their you cannot say that not Very curious how Strauss defends the ancients against the moderns in Natural Right and but he refuses to endorse the most fundamental political teaching of the that political order rests upon a teleological natural Strauss wanted the ancient position without its I forget the name of the author who exposed this in the Review of Metaphysics many years I see what you mean the nihilists can pick whatever side pleases ultimately Stoicism and Epicureanism seem to produce  Speak no ill of The Discourses of Arrian is one of my favorite works of late classical I guess a Christian can read it but it seems pretty empty to I find Stoic or Hadot would have called are really effective at helping one to master the At least it helped I deny I love Stoic But it generally led Stoics to suicide you take it too far never steps in the same river I really only know the Stoics through and it never did much for By the Strauss read his Plato through and I think that helps explain his strange twist on Cicero also wanted to wrap himself in the mantle of but Cicero was finally a with you I really enjoyed the The New Academy championed by Cicero held as its fundamental position that one could never attain Augustine takes this position apart piece by Augustine is good at taking Cicero and the Academics It strikes me that life we can judge it by his was to defend the republic from the old families of Rome the one and the plebs the Why is another De Officiis is a Stoic so TACers really see the real We do get a taste of I think in City of God that Augustine takes up his argument about divine foreknowledge and its inconsistency with free will de natura deorum presents the Stoic position which Cicero then undermines through the New Academy More rhetoric than I think you are about political The why is an interesting I think he thought his rhetoric could forge an alliance among all men of good He could never be a full was a he could not identify with the many He saw his oratorical skills as that which could guide the His own rather terrestrial version of I like how Epictetus used a lot of animal metaphors to describe the reason of The familiar with from what you are distinguished by You are distinguished from wild you are distinguished from you are a citizen of the and a part of not a but a principal there is a general and a particular The first to act as a What is comprehended in To be yet not not to be like a wild To address question way back I think Seth Benardette is a but I know if he would accept that august I only heard him lecture Three fourths of the lecture on Plato was in When no one had a question after the lecture was over no one understood what he was I asked him if he thought one had to know Greek to understand He got angry and refused to I also like the epicheireme of a much more interesting rhetorical argument that the Aristotlean though it seems to rely on the topics of it is a strongly deductive persuasive argument that embraces a full range of political even Allan Bloom was present at the Benardette lecture on Bloom laughed scornfully at my I thought it was a reasonable thing to after mastered Aristotle with no knowledge of Interesting I found Cicero to be much more interested in how one can move and manipulate an Philosophy seems to be little more than an ornament for A point on suicide and the of the It seems a suppression rooted as spiritual writers point out in Thus in the end Portia swallows burning Is that what they We made it to and just so all TAC provides the greatest education of any undergraduate institution west of You must be a Dallas Brilliant I I think Augustine really pulled all of those emotional arguments under his He never said you need to argue in a particular language only people who are losing an argument make those your a closet Admit every Straussian a closet I think Augustine understood how important emotions are in truth seeking for most If you want to appeal to bring in a few more But who has time for I know He is The further east you the more emotional the Catholic liberal arts colleges This is because of the way the sun travels across the The Virginia sunsets warm the heart and invites you to bring more and more observations into the structure of the The question of links to Strauss is perhaps more fit for a dissertation topic than a short but the New Digital Archive has just put much of papers online with only a few minor exceptions correspondence with those still living interestingly letters to The link is The handwriting presents some but one can find several interesting including a letter to Strauss the and some notes on the New Anything interesting on the New In a epicheireme to restore all things to In a simple enthymeme to set students At the syllogism to be I read the New Testament pages Still struggling through the letter to which poses two his poor handwriting and my poor I was never impressed by He always seemed lost in the I thought his essay on Oedipus Rex was particularly I have to get some It has been a pleasure conversing with you Here is the link for the NT more difficult to read his handwriting than the manuscripts worked Goodnight Adrw re q on I like how he identifies important problems and Especially in Blue and Brown books and I like the Beetle in box is excellent argument against His general style makes me I take him to be useful for certain points rather than an overall world view or Great argument against representationalism in Blue book could be reworked to be argument for immateriality of Wittgenstein argues concepts only make sense linguistically but basic point that we do not recognize things by comparing to image shows there must be something immaterial at Never spent any time with the blue or brown but good things about them Jeffrey how did you find I really like his but you group him with the Chicago Straussians and their in note of the Common Good Book CDK writes the has become most urgent to spread the writings of Augustine against the Pelagian exaltation of man and of as well as his writings on It seems clear that sophomore theology at TAC is inspired by the Pelagian part of this HOW DID I MISS THE WITT only one of and had who would you have preferred and Choice What a cruel I guess if I had to take As much as I love his project is to get me to stop doing to perform a philosophical intervention on someone in and damn it I like doing Heidegger still believes in the ability to use philosophy to and he is still teaching me new even after reading him for nearly I think that answers the question about their obsolescence as future histories of philosophy is not a profitable but I certainly imagine them fading from or even becoming minor If the view of philosophy as a conversation is then there are vast swaths of Century philosophy that simply cannot be understood without logical ordinary language to name a Pater I left the conversation last night before your question about my experience with the I took a seminar he offered on like Eryximachus in the actual is a medical I was amazed how Plato somehow anticipated the typical position on Kass actually ran the seminar the way Eryximachus tried to run the drinking Just as Eryximachus tried to orchestrate the discussion at the party in such a way as to control and limit the strivings of the so Kass in his own strange way tried to suppress any real eros for the Good among those in the an aside to the question you are it is worth noting that the entire experience was an extraordinary testimony of the fact that as perfected works of really do imitate real philosophical Students often stress what they perceive to be the of yet my especially with Kass that quite the Without going into the parallels between the conversation in the dialogue and that in the classroom were with Kass having unwittingly cast himself in the rather comical role of Eryximachus trying desperately to keep eros under in typical Straussian wanted nothing to do with the metaphysical questions raised by the and he tried to suppress any efforts to discuss those His focus was on the political need to control eros for the sake of the political of Kass had his way because the room was filled with his whom some of us called because if you pushed their they would simply repeat whatever Kass had Plug and Kass asked me to come see him in his office at one and there he tried to recruit me into the inner He very solemnly Eryximachus like informed me that his goal was to make good citizens out of most of his students because they could not handle the that is nothing out His as he explained was to paint a beautiful as Plato that could be placed between the students and the Kass invited me to join him as one of the myth makers because he and he could handle the We he present a salutary teaching for the even though that teaching was not When I asked him how one knew what to be salutary about if there were nothing he responded by saying he would not take the question as a but only as me wanting to know how to respond to my own students someday when they asked me the same Truly It was like a seduction scene from a medieval morality an invitation to have a special seat next to the beloved It was a very tempting offer for a young man trying to find his way in the bad world of thanks be to there was a Socratic figure in the classroom who saved me from the dark Sounds I was not a Catholic at the but moving in that and my conviction that Kass was and the Church was probably saved As for they can indeed provide some help in some but if you look carefully at what he actually says you will see that he really does not endorse the position he seems to be for is not really a That is just part of the salutary myth he paints for the Whenever Kass encountered someone who really was convinced that nature is he know what to do with that and he did everything he could to undermine that influence in the Kass did his very best to minimize the influence of the Socratic figure in our Symposium but he ultimately is a great temptation to try to make the spirit Culture and Anticipating TNET on Catholic effect of making men think in accordance with dogmas perhaps in the form of certain graphic propositions will be very not thinking of these dogmas determining opinions but rather as completely controlling the expression of all People will live under an absolute palpable although without being able to say they are not I think the Catholic Church does something rather like For dogma is expressed in the form of an assertion and is unshakable but at the same time any practical opinion can be made to harmonize with admittedly more easily in some cases than in Matthew Peterson himself is strangely silent on all this Off enjoying his water jet no the esoteric implications of get me Seriously thank you Jeffrey Bond for these My i have an eye on Wittgenstein was right about an palpable but he did not rightly predict who would be tyrannizing over The tyranny of relativism reigns then too what is Libertas hat tip to Jeffrey Bond how sad about I really loved The Hungry That is indeed the I gives us the And without his Libertas we would be in great danger of believing that the religious freedom so much lauded these days is actually real saddened by that as Sad for But ultimately quite am still pondering Virgil nefas indeed and have to defend my position that it be properly It gives some insight I think into whence the Straussians They see only the Those passages are rich and or at least very Given an earlier discussion some of us had about TAC graduates having difficulty achieving success in the I think the tremendous worldly success of Kass by President is worth Few come back from the kingdom of success Straussianism is a curious form of The select few have a special knowledge that but their salvation as John all political deeds are nefarious as It is not an idle Jeffrey Bond writes come back from the kingdom of success Perfecting art while in turn being a worldly failure is an art unto and an art few wives The fact remains that anyone who wants to read important books and talk about them contra the barbarians today will find themselves in the same room with comments here remind me of my own critiques of And whatever your particular experience with Kass how long ago was a but much to simply bash of A bit of circular firing on His books are often and stand apart from someone like who was more clearly far IF you are telling the truth of your encounter with one must consider why he over work so hard for the sake of My guess is over somewhat It makes little sense None of those Straussians who move in that direction usually sustain They become run of the mill modern Did I miss the claim is the Leon Kass is a fraud based on a conversation that happened at some point in the Also I had encounters with Straussians studying ethics as a grad I find comment Discourse is so compartmentalized these Name another group on the greater scene that wants to read what would be hyperbolic would be universalizing your own anecdotal Discovering and sharing the alarming underbellies of prominent scholars is hardly Deception and fraudulence should be talked about openly put it this we have books and career on one and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass But more fun to vehemently disagree withe about I I also think it very hard to write off Cicero as a mere He seeks out and holds to him between Stoics and He is a skeptic of a but much more interesting and complicated than he is generally made out to and he moves far closer towards the natural law than Aristotle always moving towards Aristotle in a curious and moderating stoicism while fending off The claim seemed to be that his entire work was for the purpose of pretty and also somewhat hard to It could be but I bet this happened early in career if at least years Plenty of prominence scholars are at least that was my experience when I to know I had a similar experience with Jean Porter for example Human beings are But bashing Jeffery who first hand saw the destructive influence of the Straussians is ok i I much more limitedly saw the I probably grew agree with you about Ciscero though Matthew Gd spellcheck not bashing just cautioning denigrating a lifetime of serious intellectual and political work of a man based on one story about especially when one of the few somewhat on your He has published amazing Besides I love tons of philosophers who were in crazy error about some stuff The whole finding truth wherever we can thing One can respect without being I have a friend who respects them much but at the same time refutes their errors or attempts to now he is How is what Jeff said similar to your critique of Matthew his critique mean that no one could profitably read or engage with and to Andrew while true we take whatever is good we must refute or point out the errors too but more on that later when i will bring up a point on liberty that should bring home the point well piece by Pink pater directed me to I think Jeff has a keenly honed sense of the worst of Strauss and Straussians as I do of For what its my conversation with Kass took place in the Spring of at the University of Chicago in his I shared the conversation at the time with a number of other students in the especially the Socrates figure in seminar who provided me with the intellectual means to escape the I have to laugh to myself as I offer this in response to doubts about my I see I have been put in the position of a victim who has to bring forth witnesses to the effect that she told friends soon after the rape that she had been apologies for the potentially offensive but a kind of intellectual and even spiritual violation was being proposed by For whatever it is it may mean something to many in this particular is my witness that I am telling the truth about my encounter with Having said I must add that the purpose of relating this story was certainly not to bash Kass nor put together a firing As Adrw Lng as quite rightly deception and fraudulence should be Those who admire Kass should be warned of hidden As for I have admitted that they can be so there is no disagreement But I that you are mistaken about I knew him quite well and he was very open to serious philosophical discussion his mocking me for my question to nor did Bloom try to recruit me into myth I strongly suspect that Bloom finally did not think the world was one of objective order and but he was less interested in imposing that view on his Certainly the man had but people knew where he was coming from on those why would Kass work so hard to cultivate these I is an excellent and you may I even asked Kass himself I reported in my If you I asked him why bother being salutary if there is nothing to be salutary answer to me was quite but that was his answer at the Would he answer differently hope And keep him in our Certainly it is possible he has changed his position since the Spring of I hasten to that one of my student who went to Harvard and studied with Harvey had the occasion to talk with Kass at one of his lectures I had warned this young lady about the and about Kass in and she discovered through her conversation a Kass who very much fit my description of When she spoke with him after the she made clear that she was convinced more than just salutary that nature truly was and he then become very especially after she offered my name in response to his query as to where she had learned about this is all but I would be glad to put you in touch with this young lady if you truly doubt that I am being is Kass hope Does his position make little sense I could not agree with you position makes little yet it has not prevented him for achieving great of is my I must acknowledge my debt to the Straussians because without them I do not think I would be Catholic My Straussian professors at Kenyon put me on a however that brought me to the And so I agree with Matthew that they are among the few who read great and that their writings can certainly help those who are But buyer Does mean anything other than I have no idea what it means to but if you are going to call people postmodern who defend much of what you defend and have fought those you oppose politically in serious ways on I think the term is an I think Jeff is telling the truth but that was in and a lot has transpired since re and what he has done intellectually and politically speaks for It would make sense that a idealistic Straussian type would speak But in the decades Closing of the American Mind was to my mind far more Nietzschean wrapped in clothes than anything Kass has define But let the buyer always I suppose that what characterizes postmodernity is a looking back to the past for culture and philosophy having recognized or less that modernity has ruptured our connection to the past and as left us bereft of culture and But I love what Jeff says about Bloom at his best Seems very I would have loved to study with New KidSafe TNET Tatoo Home Application Kit to wash off with warm soap and while supplies last To elaborate Edward Langley noted above that it is my position with regards to Theology in we are in a of with regards to but rather with regards to how we stand towards I think modernity and its consequent intellectual customs have alienated us from Catholic I think there is something similar going on in perhaps a where we are trying to find philosophy after had been effectively destroyed in the This is why I think guys like Heidegger are even as I disagree with I was just trying to understand what you meant by Matthew I appreciate your vote of confidence concerning my telling the truth about my encounter with It is is it that our earlier argument about TAC grads and worldly success has coalesced around the career of You put it this we have books and career on one and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass That I is helpful to the debate about worldly On one side of the you place the books and career of My sorry ass goes on the other Clearly on the of success I am going to be sitting up in the air for a long But I would not trade sides with him for the and I encourage discouraged TACers to look carefully at the price of comments are more than welcome They lead to a larger to give Leo and friends their best teleology makes them nervous because it seems to even when one rejects to be an open Which it We need to further this We need to push the argument of the such as it still and see what not talking about but the substance of his actual books and political The best of the Straussians think they avoid this problem by espousing natural right instead of natural law is obviously dependent on but their natural right is either toothless or it too must take nature as standard for an intrinsic Either the teleological argument is try as one might to get out of But we do ourselves no favors if we just assume among ourselves and judge others by means of the hermeneutic of what would you say about work on Committee for or whatever it was I am having a hard time reconciling what you are saying with what I read I have gone to TAC without the experience of reading of the American but I came to see that Bloom was a carnival huckster and thought his success was who he really that is a good Daniel I think calling Strauss postmodern as some sort of specifying term is the way for example you might describe Lacan as distinctively postmodern Matthew I know you are focusing on another but do you object to my understanding of Is it a fair to thing to consider For the in a certain I think we are all I agree that the apparent substance of someone like Kass can be helpful to bring others to something truly But it may It is much like the role the sophists play in the Platonic Should one go to listen to them or Bernadete and Bloom are like And their success seems predicated on making whatever is substantial acceptable to those with money to pay for their They sell their but they themselves do not really know what is intellectually nutritious and what is If you go to their lectures without a Socrates to accompany then you are likely to ingest harmful Plato has given us access to these sophists through his but the presence of Socrates in the dialogues saves us from the sophist siren Adrw what about Well Michael Horton see comments above Bloom was no carnival even if he was appropriated in ironic ways by the political right given his underlying And Closing was fantastic in many equating with Leo success seems a bit beside the to I would just like TACers find satisfying and support their and get jobs when they so I think Daniel just nailed For those who think it is hard to believe entire work could be based on I have one  Glad to hear you think so it lit me up and I still read it with Jeff I discussed Bloom at the time it was painful to hear that such a dazzling thinker was an atheist but I think resisting the idea that Kass is the sort of depraved psychopath that Maciel was is But just as they have an esoteric may they not is an easier have an esoteric I have not followed Kass but have Obviously when I keep referring to life and I refer on part to his role on the Bioethics I do think perilous for Catholics to miss out on the Christian philosophical revival of Benedict and Kass was so politically accurate on scientific issues of human but lacked passion and in relation to the barbarity of those Human stem cell research and Gosnell are equally wrong for a bunch of the same philosophical but those reasons seem to fall short of emphasizing the beauty of life or describing the moral outrage in a good more than an academic trend that has got the world to so it will take more to coax it from the Benedict and JPII seem to be the only ones able to descibe those big moral issues in a way that warms the Samantha sorry to take so long to Comments are coming out fast and It has been a long time since I read what Kass wrote concerning but I remember at the time saying to myself that it was in keeping with the Kass I knew at the U of In other he was opposed to unlimited scientific but his reasoning was weak and only suggestive of the right I cannot give you particular would have to look at it But I am quite sure it was weak even if it was on the right side of the would someone who knew the right reasons be able to do any better Perhaps Kass speaheaded entirely unethical compromise to allow research on existing human embryonic stem cell I remember that We opposed it with everything we It was the beginning of the end for not because of any particular but poetic James Patterson No offense taken if you decide to remain prudently silent and do work that will help you obtain tenure there is unethical and then there is prudent and necessary compromise and there is the best you can And we always dispute which is Very Thank God for Thomas Aquinas College and for their professors and these they really called embryonic stem cell were they were actually called human and they were never created to die as microscopic lab all of the discoveries are coming from ethical cord blood not from these embryonic it has been a while for Please just remember that Kass President Bush to approve human embryonic stem cell on the human stem cell lines that had been created at NIH under That was the beginning of the end of the Bush and nothing was learned from that useless Bush The cures are coming from ethical My thoughts seem shallow in but what talking about strikes me as the fight between the perfect and the more comfortable with modernity tha most traditional and I used my APSA paper on Fulton Sheen to make that Kass made his arguments and got people to More hardline Catholics made theirs and One can blame liberalism all one but an old trick to rationalize The right response is to redouble perhaps reconsider the rhetoric or and take the best from the options given as a If not then your only alternative is the front Scott in addition to cannibalizing it is also unfortunate that embryonic stem cell research has moved ahead because it makes somewhat Catholics paranoid about good scientific The challenge has raised over million for ALS Many organizations are tainted because they participate in some degree in embryonic stem cell For ASLA has privately funded study using embryonic stem Now many Catholics are broadcasting far and wide not to participate in the ice bucket challenge because it is They have not done their homework on organizations using adult stem So laziness of Catholics perpetuates the stereotype that Catholics are big decision was not perfect vs good No good came of It was a decision that authorized killing embryonic human It was his defining and his only defense is to obscure the pefect vs good Plus it heralded the beginning of the reign of terror in By the fundamentalists Protestants tried the feont porch hoping to Mainliners of the first half of the that work out for  Certainly we want the best to be the enemy of the but I think the debate here is about the It is not a failure to defend the truth and be It is a failure to defend what is false and Perhaps Kass got people to But what did they listen I have to look again more closely at what he but I recall at the time thinking it was weak and I will grant that a better argument may not have succeeded but that kind of failure worry Prudence has to have one hand on the true principles and the other hand on the but it cannot let go of the Who are you convincing with that approach to not as the Big Lebowski quotation but If folks listen to Kass instead of perhaps not their fault but Folks listened to Sheen on communism for He did something What are you doing The point permitting embryonic stem cell research on human embryos cell in any situation even the human embryonic stem cell lines created under Clinton is morally End of story like saying okay for the Nazis to kill the Jews in Auschwitz as the Jews were placced in Auschwitz before So there was something vacant in It did not always support the good or the It did support an entirely gratuitous and unethical policy in the Bush People were fed a crock about embryonic stem cells by celebrities like Michael J Fox and Mary Tyler Moore and Christopher Reeve and the media lapped it Bush did not even need to take up the Guess who leaked his decision to the Btw the most successful stem cell programs today are adult taken from the own Tony Windebank Mayo Clinic and Richard Burt at Northwestern University Christopher Smith has been the champion of ethical stem cell research for the real hero not the end of the but pretending it is a lovely though false consolation for the There should be no quarter for those who wrap themselves up in the Garment of Truth and proclaim that Americans have failed There instead should be earnest prayer for forgiveness because of that The problem I have with your is that your position seems to suggest prudence needs to figure out how to That is not Prudence must assess the particular but it must do so under the light of what is unchanging and Perhaps I misunderstand but you seem to suggest that an argument that persuade somehow has Suggesting that refusing to participate in the ALS challenge is laziness or confusing the perfect the good is nothing less than Then maybe you have not had the same comments in your Andw Daniel Lendman is neothomism Everything is right except the Art criticism of Carl has a book of false and everyone seems to be understanding doctrine along those i take you seriously at at By prudence we also judge what battles we can fight and hope to succeed The deck is sometimes In any case your ridicule and insinuous accusation is ALS laughable it kills in perhaps the most torturous way imagine able in a number of years and I certainly think raising money for research is very I also think people with ALS will be the first wave of targets the culture of death seeks to eliminate on the other end of the and we have an obligation to sorry you find that By the way these are my Pastors picture taken a couple of years I do make such an and in a democracy it is not enough to be You must persuade others Preferably those who There are plenty of people making wrong and they are not doing it for and they often care nothing about you or your You can stop worrying about persuasion once built the Thomistic monarchy that heeds the authority of the Until make like priest on Polish freedom and This is my Pastor now in the wheelchair diagnosed with ALS just over a year He can no longer swallow or breathe on his enjoying this but have to And not even out of bombs to Kass was not decision informed an executive act of the It was not During his Bush stated he would oppose embryonic stem cell research without There was no public referendum on the NIH stem cell The crock embryonic stem cell research is completely counter Like a flock of they fly in no particular but they call that direction and when the course of the Swallow the paid philosophers scramble to call that new direction last two points are on point though I say not Too much I Or not James trot out morally ill celebrities promising the moon the benefits of embryonic stem cell research and broadcast it to the general public and couple that with laziness successful alternative therapies throw in some ignorant lazy Catholics who know the make it look like are and you have the perfect atmosphere to I am still whether you are openly advocating that in a democracy we should make efforts to persuade the many irrespective of the At this nothing you have said in response has suggested that you think Is it your position that the truth can and should be defended through false Embryonic stem cell research is completely to society at and to the human Mark my The quickest way to derail a career is to say anything close to I have seen it too many And they are shouted down loudest of I was only recently reading about a whole class of academics and journalists who fear to speak out for Correct Like IVF a torturous also immoral and yet NaProTechnology which is is a significantly more successful I did not know that the high levels of academia were so John when I was at I did come across some professors in the English Department who seemed to hate me because of the false ideology they thought I had embraced during my undergraduate I smart enough to take them so I just kind of cowered by myself in the Bush hired lots of Catholics who believe in truth without He just made a couple bone head on a couple rare that admit compromise like bombing cities that have cradled Eatsern Christian civilization for I thought universities were all about Truth always like a does it The Truth was crucified and would be led by the the scribes and Their hatred is becoming only the cheering would be louder and Pilate wouldnt wash his hands with I think this truth at the expense of tenure thing is worthy of in light of Tenure is a and so is a four year Can we tie these loose ends Should Catholic liberal arts colleges on truth and strategize for a breakthrough in or should they make wise And does this question make TNET a If Faith is bolstered by and this synthesis illumines the content of modern how can we lose the argument over Adrw I think I by answering the and including a third you have made TNET a implicating us We are all to I am only implicating the usual suspects all of us but with It is the same in every We just think we are not not thought you addressed Perhaps this conversation is better for suited after for this is like to discuss dark business in the Thorin The An Unexpected Come to think of warning about the effect of majority opinion on the courtier spirit and national its omnipotence and tyranny make the Truth particularly And is that opinion these are the SAME opinions that Newman speaks of in as well as in to make no mention of Plato and It seems to me that TAC is proposing the very same thing proposed by countless centuries to retrieve stolen treasure from the and to restore those treasures to their proper place or Tolkien was a great I just wish he wrote All I We proceed from different I thought you were saying something But your most basic false assumption is that you would be given a fair public In the public sphere it I have been involved in campaigns and seen it from a precisely what you are saying is I see you all had a busy BUY For a limited time New KidSafe TNET Tatoo Special College Dorm Room Application Kit This is a permanent Will not wash off with soap and Order yours Catholic liberal arts students are standing by to take your Order while supplies Thread losing Will it end with a or a A so confused right Truth will always throughout course has always born this as long as there are poets and scholars who seek as long as there are students willing to and long as there are teachers and tutoes wiliing to support their Even in the darkest when all hope was humanity always found its way out of the in age after faith has always shone her as when the rulled the world and the and delighted everyone with their dim ray of soon after there came an even greater then a then a great age of but then a great when east and west were united in Holy followed by even more harmful always replacing themselves with there is nothing new under the the man of power who advocates morality in place of God is no different than the King pretending to govern the teaching of the Church of it all falls but as long as there is there is and best days are not but straight So keep keep going up the keep and Fear not the confusion of The just the shining light of the Bid farewell to your shackles I like Scott much better than Revisiting stem cells good article donations now top The ice bucket ethical surprise Denver Catholic Register The Most Samuel Aquila is the eighth bishop Scott is something like the clown or His next incarnation make fools of us all or is that has No just me I think All i know is that the farther down the thread i go the more fool i I will be a complete imbecile turtles all the way Ernest Hemingway is a better writer than Jane I feel like Scott is Strauss no one wants my opinion of recent But how do you like Rip van  I love that One of the best American That characters are practically real Austen writes about cardboard cutouts who all sound like Jane  Heeheehee  My nickname was Rip in grade Half the boys were named No for Everyone tells me missing out on her incredible insight into human especially the relationship between female and male nature and just not seeing men were like her First of there would have been no Hemmingway without She is really the inventor of the modern I do believe that honor belongs to characters were all just lightly fictionalized versions of people he so if what you mean by real then sure   But hardly literary merit James roasts Austen in Portrait of a Lady Some of characters are but those ones are also i have no dog Her main characters are incredibly and she is the best writer of romance in the ENTIRE ENGLISH LANGUAGE I for sure have a dog in I disagree that there would be no Hemingway without not indebted to her or influenced by her in the Wait so lightly fictionalized incredibly SO she is the one i should especially if your understanding of the people you are lightly fictionalizing is shallow at He is indebted to her in the sense that every novelist after her is indebted to her And CLEARLY the best writer of romance in the entire English language is Nicholas Why do I allow myself to be trolled in this You think there are any better writers of romance than romances are What do you no one quite very safe So complaining that no one dies saying the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel than whether or not a young lady is Lady Blackbird something of a meretrix running a moulin rouge Jane Austen writing So the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel then the thing that young ENTIRE LIFE hinges A novel does not need to be an epic tragedy to be great Her stories practically never leave their figurative Lizzy goes to like five places in P and And so Oh her cushy high class How awful that she might not find a So she was just a bitter young now I think ever read her novels Or if you you paying attention the protagonists in Jane Austen are mostly not guaranteed cushy high class In fact they are pretty much universally doomed to penury and humiliating subservience unless they do marry The exception is Emma You know I can admit that there might be something missing in my or something that might be obstructing me from enjoying her But I find her not do Emma was the worst of the I brought up Emma because she does have and will continue to have a cushy life regardless of marriage prospects all I ask is that you admit that there is something missing or broken in your Kudos for using penury in a sentence by the way we can be  Wow think I helped Mark Twain dig her up and beat her over the head with her own you also a former tutor who is years older than are But James goes a bit too far and he was an imp P and P was all right except the Because been unintentionally disrespectful to my elders and betters quite a bit on this thread So your manner changes depending on your  seems to Just are So when you discover the identity of some of your what was formerly intentional disrespect becomes unintentional hate but I would replace Emma with It would make a nice to since George Eliot was the first to translate that work into if not  Even if Austen was mediocre she she is still better than face even in the running for best novelist of his Middlemarch is better than But too THANK Of course But I am pointing out that reacting like attacked you criticized Surely you can handle I can handle This is how I handle too long for senior I not too long simply speaking Emma may be the worst of the but it is still inestimably better than anything Hemingway telling me Emma The Old Man and the you the one complaining that nothing happens in my comment about your soul was mostly a btw I are you actually I thought the entire purpose of your comments was to make me flip out Isak is the son of the ex Isak is class of I No sorry if I gave that The Sparks comment was entirely I Actually I just She belongs in level sappy schmooze is not great Just because she makes you swoon but she is I mean the life she depicts which is not all her Wodzinski would say that if one appreciate one should read the Nicomachean Ethics not offended at all and sorry for pushing your She is anything but favorite movie Army of I think nothing happens in The Old actually pretty  I agree with I think charming but about push But this is what happens when you Superficial is a better word than trivial for what I She is only superficial if you think human families and relationships are superficial havent read Emma in a long I will say She is overrated and her men are wilting How did that society Nieto said that when it comes to the English language it was either Emma or John I refuse to believe that you are If you then but you worth trying to convince Well if John Nieto thinks Emma is the pinnacle of the English then I better take another very skeptical of that why do you go right for the ad I went for the ad hominem after trying several other approaches Ad hominems are wonderful but you break out the big guns first It has to be possible to discuss a book that some love and some Taste be the sole arbiter So how do we do Bingley is a wilting but  the society was I am overcompensating for too much I Ioved Austen as a And dont mind watching renditions with the For the Emma is only best I knew you were arguing against the and not the books I actually think her third best i read all as a I could see and taught P and Mansfield Park is sappy mmmkay maybe try them again as a   a misogynistic habit to dismiss books that primarily depict marriage and Which do you put in first and Samantha Set me up for that though and taught P and And i deserve Pride and Prejudice Persuasion No one is dismissing books that primarily depict marriage and Just the bad And anyway why are you assuming men just as interested in those subjects as That seems to be a pretty biased statement to disclaimer I have only read the last comments I think that when that seems to be the main content of the likely motivated by misogyny More than I you singlehandedly generated the last at least So once your problem is not really with the opinion but with the one who holds Bingly and Darcey are better comparative to yes saying the opinion expressed misogyny Austen herelf admitted was too too Mansfield her last and my personal but got a clear serious moral core An opinion An opinion is eunuchs meaning many of the other men  I have a dog in the Jane Austen Let is all strive to speak like Bingly from time to be a an opinion does both An opinion express call what is with this thread spelling names Bingley folks Thank you This thread is a big who will never meet in real life but I wish that they have X conversation dream Do you know all of us Cause I mostly have no idea who talking  has responded on Mansfield so I suggest everyone go read it carefully and then we can really talk I once loved Austen but she glorifies AFFECTION and dismisses James was right to call her a panderer though he was hardly Dismisses unless John is preparing one of those massive posts right in which case I will gladly eat my what is wrong with Mansfield what about filial duty to her Mansfield Park is extremely but it her best work While on the subject of Senior can someone explain to me why the greatest novel of the on the What is with the absence of Charterhouse of Is it because he was a Possibly the most noble aspect of read Is it really that well now you will make me reread Talk me into So Emma or I discover Stendhal until I was but since I read just about everything he But Charterhouse of Parma is his Samantha I know most of the people who are in the younger grades commenting on this from working at the And Hemingway has his moments of fwiw Do chicks dig If Well I would say People have fewer notions about it than her other books so easier to read without getting biased one way or I heard of it My description of The Charterhouse of Andrw Lng I cannot tag I did want to chime in and say I thought A Moveable Feast was an enjoyable Untergang des Added to Oxford Dictionary NBC News Pop culture and Internet slang are becoming our lives are a facepalm you heard it first here on Like every educated man should come with carriages and To be I did once love Austen but her star has My taste is for Pomeral or fast from So take my criticism with that in Me and movies dont get along any My poor BTW i drink box But i can afford good Which are Have I mentioned that I really enjoy New The problem with Emma is that Austin persuade me to care one way or the other about any of her characters and I in turn did not care what happened to I mean other than the she did persuade me to want to throw him down a well to save him from is his miserable And thanks for the I will read this of which you Mansfield it Are there any men in Franklin Salazar has advanced the only good criticism of Emma so Emma is a total so pretty easy to get fed up with at least spell Austen Maybe Emma is fourth I just membered Emma was the only i never you troll Jane The best writer of romance in the English You guys are cray Sense and Sensibility in contrast persuades us to care very much about the Or compare Emma to David Uriah Heep the best villain all time falling short only of dracula makes us care deeply about the I want a book to rip at my soul where in fear of what is to come of the I wish we had a Jane Austen or Harriet Beecher Stow Sheer artistry and ability to capute the shades of like a masterpiece What light they could shed on so that the public could make right judgments about pressing Jane Austen Albrecht Durer of masterpiece Paints a wicked rabbit though Care to advance another talk about the a I only tear things down and as far as a debt Aristotle owes a debt to the but you say that he passed them Let me know what you The Penguin edition has a good I am all for spelling names Hemingway That was just my of But I think the debt is the is much And he surpass her oh Hemingway sucks too At least you are consistent Jane writes beautiful prose and very well constructed plots about for rabbits domestic ones I know you just trying to whip up the masses so we get past before like painting of a looks like a life Masterfully But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a I like an enormous part of It is not comparable to have you read Watership No Austen is writing about courtship and which is a lot bigger than a beetle in a no I know about though Flannery is She was a good Loved the peacock The king of Hemingway But comparing him to Austen is like apples and called MB if i were i would have spit out James and shorter I liked the Sun Also Made me want to get super drunk in is domesticity intrinsically more interesting to kill Shotguns to and normally a but using it against Jane so you must die I if you look at the short story collections like In Our Time and Men Without those are some of the finer short stories in the first half of the in Only Joyce is better in  Joyce If it then a fault of men going on an international bender is one thing I regret never having to regret Joyce is great Lemons with his fish and Me Too late old and Joyce DOES Araby is Portrait of an artist is very Bah no taste Joyce is a POS on I been on here in a few but then I got into the so here I back at you  piece of shit Elaborate your point about men and the household Samantha He was so like Portrait of an Artist is horrible Define See Translation not about rabbits Because aesthetically genius I think talented artists are preyed because they are so important to Domesticity is intrinsically and if it is true that men are less interested in then a fault in Just whiskey is inherently and if women like whiskey less than men then our My class read that book in high really tell you what Horrible is Draws you in with then leads you down the path of It inspired a speech from my instructor when we were reading it in high so I may be Horrible is beautiful portrayal of the using art to normalize that works for horrible then Austen is banal banal is one of my all time favorite let us use Even is it possibly still just more interesting to Fault just did Joyce just goes from glory Music to glory to glory as far as The only place I follow him is into Finnegans But I blame myself for Probably But when exactly did women start liking Austen better than Art is like We cannot disagree on the Because I think that only happened about eighty years  is Adolf Eichmann was according to Hanna this is why Mary Ann Evans wrote under the name George If Jane Austen wrote under the name Thomas would we find her better or worse for I think my dad appreciates humor even better than I though only watched the BBC version and read the suppositories though just a personal A mental exercise I Pick up Emma or one of other novels and read it as if it had been written by a How would you judge it I think men would still have noticed that women liked and consequently make dumb criticisms such as that it is or or pronounced like But the rest of you try what Daniel suggests rather something worthwhile I read Facebook out loud to so I imagine you are a Tim I blame the aforementioned gin and the fact that on my phone so you people move too Imagination James said he would have shot himself had he lived in Austens He wrote a long novel to torture the reader while scorching Nina Austin writes like a my imagining change an I might have shot if I had lived in society the wicked in Wuthering Heights less If Guy Davenport convince me to like Joyce no one can Yes talk about how awesome Wuthering Heights is  Wuthering Heights is a Hahaha I actually did reread it recently So did It is a strange book but I love the narration Not an I like girl Edith Wharton for supposed to be would you guys stop saying stuff about This is cocaine to The third party narrator is one of my favorite literary I cant even read Wuthering A modern girl writer I like is Elizabeth Kostova This line is seemed to me now that a Catholic church was the right companion for all these Catholicism deal with blood and resurrected flesh on a daily it expert in I somehow doubted that the hospitable plain Protestant chapels that dotted the university could be much they look qualified to wrestle with the I felt sure those big square Puritan churches on the town green would be helpless in the face of a European A little witch burning was more in their limited to the page from The So sad that I missed the discussion of but I enjoyed reading the One thought comes to I think Austen aims at and achieves something relatively but she does it And I like her for Having made that I hasten to add that she cannot compare to the truly great such as who aims at and achieves something absolutely Austen is Dostoevsky is I like but I am awed by How about Mary yes except Austen is the Durer painting of the settings are but her themes are ha Frankenstein is just paraphrased not burden of proof is on you Well said Jeffrey Bond and Joyce is a noisy Damien Hirst More like Austen is And say Vermeer and Michelangelo are doing different but are equally still better than Percy Shelly I thought Kostova wrote a pretty worthy successor to Dracula in that at least she took the vampire thing which most authors seam incapable of doing even when they Jeffrey Vermeer painted too high brow for Austen the Read Second Then read think you are reading the Cliff Notes to Percy Bysssssshhhhhe Her themes are courtship and romance and family and class and money and Those are not small yes they are You are I want to be but those are not Those are subject A theme has to say something about a subject yes I am Lower middle class women being constantly on the edge of ruin is a small Does I have never heard But I went to TAC pretty much all times in all Universality make is a large theme that is not a A theme must say something about such women in that that be a Serious I have never taken a conventional lit class in my entire antithesis and back to Hegel I never heard it before yet a quick google told me the is important not to confuse a theme of a literary work with its Subject is a topic which acts as a foundation for a literary work while a theme is an opinion expressed on the Theme Definition and Examples of Theme Usage and a list of Theme Examples in common speech and Theme is defined as a main idea or an underlying meaning of a literary work which may be stated directly or out we are talking about female virtue not being an important switch to since I agree a better For revenge in Hamlet is a subject not a To claim that revenge is destructive of human life is a The return to Hegel is a leitmotif of this like that chord in Thank you Katherine so the antithesis to Samantha I also have no idea about literary analysis the synthesis is Pride and Prejudice and I just read Nina Have you read Whitley The what do you think of it as Speaking of off to read Gadamer on Hegel and the Good night to Get to A theme is writing about red rider BB guns that have a compass and a thing that tells I have though it sounds well we hit my work here is  Jane Austen is timeless classics about the best of all possible subjects then drops mic   you are all older than Thanks Glad we had this more to ED it had just simmered down shhhhh I think Crime and Punishment begin to match War and sure it might have better characterization and but Tolstoy is much better at constructing a plot that helps one see his view of as Aristotle plot is primary in the poetic  I I do think Crime and Punishment is a better I actually think Tolstoy has better But War and Peace exactly a Every single one of characters has a diseased mind It would if you took out the philosophy of history Tolstoy is a better but worse banned Austen and NFP although I do doubt that those women had any for you are the also think that English has the best literature ever I think War and Peace would itself without the philosophy of history But a side have a fight between Crime and Punishment and Anna Karenina Have That is even more like cocaine to me than the other stuff read Anna but gladly watch they are actually much more similar books in a ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER WRITTEN only because of the it is if you read I The last time I read a bunch of was readings during junior I would also make sure you read the introduction after you finish because it talks about how Tolstoy developed Anna as a character and The crowning jewel was the whole of the War and peace a Anna Karenina is just like watching one long train wreck into Not unlike watching Becky I mean the intro to the Volokhonsky translation And I have read War and Peace a couple times leaving out the philosophy of history stuff and it works just But a Russian novel just be the same without the philosophical essays tucked in here an I never liked that Nieto or anyone else does not sway me on that A group of after the Austen seminars went out drinking and quoting battle scenes from the Iliad and Odyssey to each was get me I recognize a technical skill But as with any fiction there is a certain subjective Maybe because the landed does not appeal to me or because the sentimentalist works she satirized are not works that I have any knowledge of save that they could one appreciate Cervantes if they have at least a basic idea of what works of chivalry and courtly love were Not to mention the extrinsic Austen has very frequently been used as a criterion by literary Now maybe if I were more familiar with sentimentalist or the cultural etc I would appreciate Austen But frankly I still would find it short of my appreciation of not It is Would you call Oedipus Rex King is not a still less an epic still less a historical War and Peace is what the author and was able to in the form in which it is Anna Karina  Why Read War and Tableau There are There are long Russian And then War and The complexity Tolstoy had some delusions about He was a truly great but that what he wanted to sadly I did read his is for my thesis so I know he was pretty Poetics is a lot like We all have our but is there a rule by which we can say this is good or Cicero prescibed a form for rhetorical an equation called an There is a literary playing on the War and Peace is longer than the I am familiar with the i think there is something about the novel being the form of literature wherein men explore to say which has a different relationship to War and peace would set the bar quite high I just think the historical essay at the end is integral to the not saying you skip but you would publish the book without I the nobility of the action depicted is a fairly objective standard by which to rank novels and other Miss Tragic and depressing because you spend the entire novel watching Anna Kerenina throwing away everybody should read it once with all the philosophy to get complete Then they should read it every time after that All the philosophical stuff in Tolstoy definitely is a welcome respite from having to read War and Peace is a big long required a big story about times bigger than the death star I think what she is She happy at the beginning of the The only problem I had with was that it took pages for anything to get The Idiot by Dostoyevsky was better than his Crime and Punishment or the Brothers and does not get enough I think I agree with Cohoe about how to read him From what my wife has said about Anna it sounds like an epic version of the Doll before I had to read it for school I tried and failed to get into NOOOOOOoooOOOOOOOooo They are both about women in unfortunate Miss Samantha I suppose it depends on how one defines She be happy outside of her family and her And Karenina has more  have any of you read the Tolstoy short story So a cross between Doll House and Mansfield Russian literature literature I feel like an When Langley said Doll I thought of Joss Doll House and had no idea what he was Hahaha Anna Karenina is not a nor a at one point I read a bunch of short stories by but I remember any more like a so you probably read not an alternate title for Kreutser is So about the length of that book about the dude who fell while decorating his house and died all over a couple hundred I think you would remember a good read in addition to Anna  Shakespeare alone Russian literature It is sometimes published on its like the death of ivan ilyich the one I was thinking Is it a similar length of a this thread is the king of apples to oranges comparisons about the same length I Deacrates was good at but lost control of lost all lost the good and Katie Duda is the Nickell companion to read family we had started debating about whether Anna was happy before her And I thought that story kind of helped show what Tolstoy thought marriage was aiming Russian literature and shorter Pakaluk I literally just joined facebook on account of this I care what Tolsoy thought marriage was aiming I care about his Hey John I remember Pakaluk Cohoe ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER like this a million times if my opinion your Joel I would say But my In he knows the Tolstoy family backstory really cultural context is his I would if you saw and were his book on the death of Tolstoy is I think views about marriage changed quite a bit during his Another way of saying that is that he went way off the deep An in case Death of Read an excerpt from the introduction of Death of by William added it to my reading list Yet another famous historical character marred by a troubled relationship with his Sorry the reason dismissive of view about what he wrote is that I think he let his philosophy get in the way of his greatness as an more so as time went like Winston Churchill I think what he intended to do with Anna is very different than when he actually Sort of an Ion I always found it fascinating skimming the biographies of the various philosophers we read junior and senior two out of three enlightenment philosophers seemed to have gotten into a philosophy as a way of showing their parents the other or totally entitled to your I I just really enjoyed what I have read of and done a ton of other readings on the subject other than a few arguably purpose is to illustrate his historical  from a guy who says saying Leo have to go far to go off the deep Not really the most stable of even when was a fun a three way war between those who wanted to ignore the historical those who wanted to ignore all that literature and those who wanted to read the literature through the It is interesting how and Fathers and Sons all cover kind of the same basic theme Demons is the best of the three IMHO I would love to read a big essay talking about the political and generational themes in those I actually liked alot of stuff on War and Peace is longer than the but you apply dogma to it like you can You can apply rules of poetics and these rules are consonant with oh and to respond to bald lie War and Peace has The KJV Bible has Demons is my least favorite Dostoevsky Russian literature is a little I have read i think all of not so much But all is not Really think one has to roll back the clock a bit for great Form and substance have my favorite John did you even hear about this I think it took me too long to it was seriously at least a In War and Peace is Though I guess I went from scorning facebook to commenting my ass off of false Scott I weigh in here in terms of quality But to say any novel by Tolstoy or Dostoevsky is overblown is rather There are Tolstoy people and Dostoevsky I could talk about this at One note on late a huge Death of Ivan hadji kreutzer sonata Russians think resurrection is a beautiful are all written along with is and some other essays of interesting But one thing that unites them is a struggling experiment to see where art fits in the also there in with Anna k with the done so much more precisely in his art than in his But his essays shed light on those But both are close to half and John are this resident hater Russian fairy I sense a Straussian esoteric strain to the new Scott Weinberg as he was a big fan of his confessions which usually mark off are ignoring lesser Russian authors like What criterion do you use to assess literary Michael Is it just if you like hardly call Pushkin Chekov without a c how it fits in with my I really liked Resurrection a lot as but not a ton of people have read it stuff in there is a bit much I DID NOT SAY is that gnosis thing the same for and Thomas Pushkin read at TAC lesser bwahahahaha not Chekov Pushkin was basically from what I can tell of his reputation among you are it was oversimplification to say that simply not interested in what Tolstoy I type too Чехов or Chekhov They are Dostoyevsky was my favorite novelist for many The novel does not measure up too the older I John Except all literature is a footnote of Homer How can you maintain such a If you are that I cannot allow such a statement about the landed proprietors to pass you are a landed proprietor cried Prince suppose say there is nothing national about our literature said I am not a great authority on literary but I certainly do hold that Russian literature is not except perhaps Pouschkin and the first that is a considerable and in the second one of the above was a and the other two were both landed is literary gnosis the same as math chekhov with h sometimes I was just Not But I do recommend hadji Murat to anyone who loves considered his final is math gnosis and literary gnosis mr Katie does know John but is Fyodor Dostoyevsky a secret gateway to magic joyce is brilliant in some but he chooses the wrong things to imitate in some like stem cell research chooses to view the wrong data tolstoyevsky sorry I follow your metagism True X ch of or transliterated in by the library of congress these days as I even really enjoyed philosophy i wonder if some formal way we are viewing or is it just counting and spelling thinking I am only asserting that the novel is an inferior But lis I am attracted to the It is hardly an outrageous so is good literature thinking aboiut something like math is cool all about the novel is only we have no tales of old to only You want Oh dear be careful what you i get it i am sure you still owe me a copy of the formal gnosis yes the novelist lays down a on the and leads the reader towards the light of gnosis gnosis is the leading I will send it in its most polished form in weeks schedule was demolished this Long we have no tales of old to like Virgil told of we know too we have met the gnosis and it is the gnosis must guide our imagination how about over a comment applies to both Katie and I drink only Canadian I hear that is good for nothing good comes from except hockey To halt the And Gordon NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO All great novelists have This is the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald gives life to Great Dante had gnosis and or equivalent thankfully none of them had Gordon Lightfoot consider the first line of Anna which we are all happy families are each unhappy family is unhappy in its own Everything was confusion in the Oblonskii Euclid and Cicero had first line of Imaginative dialiectical Even grammatically plural and singular that sentence expresses the crux of the dilemma Tolstoy sets out for Propaghandi are Imagination kind of But Could be but Can crack the dialectic open with skillful gnosis nothing is really canadian your point about nothing good coming out of Canada besides the moral plot and discovery of like the dialectical reversal is a dark passion of mine I see the hockey is a blood too many good men and women hurt by hockey Ramones A Happy Family a happy family a happy family a happy family Me mom and daddy Sitting here in There is nonono more political less poppy Also in the words that begin sentence one and two are differentiated only by so the move from the general to the singular is done so the art is the plot is above was merely to syllaphor the true esoteric gnosis of the beginning of Anna same form as ak is good beginning to pick go I am check that was a metagism some of us are lucky enough to hear this in person that looks awfully like the form of quit apple How do you manage the form of ak looks awfully like aristhomistic They both live in What is apple I get an intelligent opinion of Russian literature from the Sucking up to the But so GOOD at All my teachers loooove stick with what good at And modest some people are good at some at some at but the same kind of I have NEVER claimed its just impossible to get fired up over math WRONG Math and literature are still not the same i guess math appeals to some passions Literature has rules Math is my first I had to translate into English math and lit are different in but both have rules and the rules this is what i say i believe that math has no rules positivist The sentence is really Slightly obscured in English is how the second part their own is somewhat circular in Russian but because there is a reflexive while the first part is more open and indicates a social i still find it hard toi believe that some men get fired up over their native tongue the first sentence of ak is the same form as the premise A lays out in the Book of If you consider the train of of the sentence predicts that Levin is the the pov is he You guys quit apple She could mash her head against the keyboard and you would But levin is a mere phantasm in the mind of tolstoy yet he drives the logic But does the sentiment reflect the way things really are all happy families really what Tolstoy and ther man The implication is that happiness is found in the family without not apple been asking her for a copy of her dissertation since before she finished and I liked that one too thbttttt a universal maxim of an a russian the major and it is the same thing that aristotle lays out at the begoinning of it goes from specific to imaginary from there Or that society distracts one from family happiness but the form is similar like hockey and clubbing the form is similar Is there a button on reminds me of the theme in the what I remember from translating  but let us not collapse into plot summary anything but you can only cause the metagismic waveform collapse through ethymemetic syllophor Another musical tie in here all The Mountain Goats Family Happiness The Mountain Goats Family Happiness all happy families are faithful and all sad families are it I just heard that in the car on the hard disk on thanks that causes everything to gel does this thread ever need a wtf I would go back and wtf a solid quarter of and it brings up I wrote my thesis to that song on mine was crowded album on also My thesis was but because it was do  back on the topic of all happy families are all unhappy are all illumination via imagination from of Russian and the Tolstoy also seems to paint a very beautiful and detailed and Joyce can do that but T had this moral perspective that informed his What is the framework of such a Without a it falls like limp It is the poetic While this now comes full Anna was not leaving a Karenin is an odious character and Tolstoy implies that avoidance of further pregnancy with him is a sign of it being unnatural and inherently opposed to Dolly and Oblonskii who are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed Really Stiva was if Levin is who he wished to am I or is Scott kind of right The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald A tribute to the men who died November aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake you think Dolly and Stiva were always on the bring of being Even though Stiva never actually repented or intended to be faithful to there unhappy families that are Or am I missing what you mean by the word All I can say is epicheireme pulled metaphor into the structure of the Oh never I was misreading Chastity and faithfullness are the cause of joy between friends and so all happy families have but none that the is They are perhaps the most tragic couple in the Stiva knows what will bring happiness and peace to his but remains selfishly But I think that their fecundity is an indication of their family being ordered to that Why does AK jump in front of a As opposed to a horse drawn Or a why does she kill always thought the he believes all he needs to do to bring happiness and peace to his family is successfully hide his talk to Talk to I meant jump as opposed to flacidly She like a bird leaping off a What brings her to How do we get from the opening line to How does Euclid get from added to to the final Anything interesting going Charity is the form of all the Under its CHASTITY appears as a school of the gift of the The virtue of chastity blossoms in Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite friendship represents a great good for It leads to spiritual Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping given God is The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into fidelity for his Through conjugal they bear witness to this mystery before the article I think that is part of was looking for my but I boxed up a lot of Stiva is not a but he does resolve to try at one point continues to He is intemperate through and but as he and Levin had once been Stiva reads to me as a weak man with corrupted My and I am very ignorant on this is that Anna herself is more Cause and if you can call it are seen most clearly in and around These characters are just making the same building the same case about humanity and These characters are just making the same building the same case about humanity and human The The The city is never a good and Stiva also refuses to leave the city for most of novel and Dolly is always attending to the needs of the family by taking them out of the city to reduce their He refuses to really tend to his So in addition to the he is not family The possibility really lies more with He sees her as an excellent he fails to see that as better than societal He does not strike me as being made happy with societal A little Demonstrative of a bigger See Translation John Boyer lets talk LW and Anscombe I would but drinking and reading Descartes for class very impressed with her despite the fanboyism surrounding Yes I have read more Geach than I LOVED her essay on I did misspeak with this statement about the are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed Not so much but they have children lot by the standard of the so there is implied potential renewal in the implied I am done for read much of her stuff on ethics Ok I really either doing the damn dishes sure we can talk whenever here look forward to include Philippa Foot in that discussion about Anscombe shall Philippa Foot and Iris two students of I feel like Foot is the one ethicist in the who gives virtue ethics a leg to stand just as British ethics is recovering from oh What a crock of words never but the word is Emotivism has its merits in a given Ayer is probably its best it of and there are several philosophers who help move things Foot is one of you by all take up your pitchforks and torches and disregard an important part of the history of British ethics while you try to understand and a British ethics after who knew Thank the discussions have advanced this thread may not end until Tim Furlan is found and provides what else are you writing I want to read ahead in order to Flight Of The Conchords Issues About There are people on the streets diseases I still want to talk about the Think about Jane Austen is the greatest Anglophone novelist by a long I love the One Straussian who seems to me to totally match the description given by Jeffrey Bond above is Eve Did you know her Her book on Virgil is She reads Virgil as who accepted view of but disseminated pious myths about the gods for the sake of the security of the I learned a lot reading her it seem a bit fun to give readings to always looking for secret gnosis hidden in take out menus Pater why is that view Sounds probable to IKEA instructions are clearly The exoteric meaning for to build a but the esoteric well let me just say it involves We are all We just dont know We havent been correcly interpreted Peterson is a Straussian clearly have my exoteric doctrine that I share with the only the initiated few get the Samantha I assume me because of the Iran but see the discussion of Virgil above comment Any of you super smart eggheads have any recommendations for a decent of mediaeval Arabic JA Joshua Jeffrey Edward Caleb request seconded from over here been listening to Peter history of philosophy podcasts on this which are very and give a good idea of the range of thought and the intellectual the which also has bibliographic Philosophy in the Islamic World History of Philosophy without any gaps In these episodes Peter examines the thought of The Hackett anthology has some of the key texts with helpful Classical Arabic An Anthology of Sources This volume introduces the major classical Thank you so thank How are Peter podcasts on other Caleb Cohoe if we can get the right folks John Brungardt is planning on initiating a group on facebook to discuss Duane lectures on Some of you may be and all of you are Pater Caleb JA Samantha Joshua Edward Jeffrey To be the includes those I forgot to about to start Lingua Latina with my I feel like very I felt like Clark I took two ibuprofen and lay down in a dark room until it fine does get into the secret Aristotelian the keeper of the You did You ensnared the ancient podcasts are very good as well listened to all of the ancient ones and about a dozen of the medieval Oliver Leaman is good for intro to Islamic Majid And the HPWG link Caleb posted is also good Joel suggest some of the Neoplatonist episodes from podcast on for Tim Furlan you work with the thing is you have to be careful because histories of Islamic philosophy are working from a sort of Whig as it and tend to not know what to do with Sufism and but those are central for Muslim sapiential tradition Greig I think done a rather decent job on covering those other parts of Islamic tradition with some of his more recent That got a whole lot to catch up Greig be having him as my PhD supervisor over the next few Books are better Greig Which ones would you any history of Islamic philosophy which give a lot of attention to Mulla Sadra and Ahmad Sirhindi is giving a skewed picture I mean monographs and long a list for here I think Greig What do you think of book list on his three episodes on Mulla To Mullā Ṣadrā on Existence History of Philosophy How did the Thread get from Tolstoy to Islamic Adamson is good but misses or underplays some of the real lines of central in my But glad for his work Jon I think Adamson is ok not great on Mulla Sadra but no harm in starting with that do not question TNET it questions you a lot of the work already has been just buried in and early c British works no one ever reads I am not Tim for But found astonishing little gems of historical and philosophical insight in the passing remarks of English travel writers who were otherwise talking about the weather in And there are many learned monographs which no one reads Morris Seale the free encyclopedia Morris Sigel Seale July August was an Arab scholar and Theologist who wrote about both Christian and Muslim traditions and explored extensively the links between the two He wrote three influential books and contributed numerous articles to Theological journals also fun to study the history of the Eastern Churches of Byzantium on the Arab Pere Georges Anawati is worth reading too I remember the good old days in hard to find even an icon that has not been let alone a real Phoenix hosted a weeping icon this Weeping for al those false private no probably weeping for lack of magisterial teaching I really have nothing to add to the Islamic philosophy but if I make a comment then TNET abandons Going back to my TAC TNET to put the comment in a a bit cold to inculcate impressionable young minds with the notion that the highest and best thing they can do short of the religious life is to become a TAC and then graduate them into the world we live in and turn back exonerating oneself with the idea that one has no institutional relation to them or responsibility for what they do after in virtually any practical Is that a bit of an But that seems somewhat TNET never truly abandons you it just departs now and then to let you walk in its ways on your own for a more like slither on your Isak or hang from the cave ceiling upside plus the whole wants a liberal arts line of BS they feed to everyone coming true for those of us who came in knowing nobody totally agree with Peterson and Beitia here you had a are you committing microaggressions against me as a Calvinist hyphen American with not so subtle jokes about free will you can indeed go places straight out of undergrad with a liberal arts but it depends on the but I agreed with these remarks before I left They were part of why I left Matthew Perhaps times but I came in with it well understood that the school did not intend to help their students towards a career except insofar as some careers have the same end as a TAC Technical training was what graduate school was I think if you give each graduate a copy of the CCC and throw them out in the be and the college will have fulfilled its I think TAC set me up for the biggest grad school let Which is petty in but the isolationist attitude has grown more appalling to me in recent years so much as it has gotten but I have noticed something pernicious in And TNET is part of the deposit of the Actually I thought of it that Since we agree so much on CST I just usually think of you as a small c at least Matthew Peterson I think the solution is with the not TAC Those who have gone and gotten tenure need to help those who come It enough to say TAC tutors Those in a position out in academia to actually help students should do so After simply being a sincere Thomist is enough to have name blackballed at many regardless of what we or TAC itself Mutatis this also applies to other Which is largely to keep on doing what Matthew It seems to and forgive me if I am way out of the college lays down some strong suppositions about knowledge and and I have never been able to connect the even in a perfect I lack part of the problem when I was there was that grad programs in philosophy and theology were dismissed by the tutors as being basically useless except to get a diploma with which one could then maybe reach a mind or two with the light of Laval in some future career I found out about DSPT quite because Father Bart OP had handed a brochure to Sean White and I saw it on When I called DSPT they we are knee deep in scholastics and late antiquity plus we talk to the outside and I said Hallelujah here I come thanks for the heads up Does the college not propose that modern both secular and has gone hell in a because of false notions of academic freedom a few other then lays down a remedy to pull it all back Is that a fair But besides it being a great place to be full of the most interesting and amazing people you would ever it is not immediately obvious how the dots have all been in the supposition and overall the school seems a bit myopic about its alumni with Scott Joel HF I tire of but I try to keep It feels trying like helping those who help and are and the job is thankless to I want to apply to teach at any of the small Catholic schools or try to help their grads but I still but help try to help But been for a strong alumni thing for a long Now I have Scott Weinberg the college and others exaggerate the downsides of modern academic A lot of how they perceive what is is just I am the last one who should be speaking on I was the stupidest person ever admitted into I failed out I do not think anyone has ever done that just could not get passionate about Original sin impacts people in different That was my Achilles myopia But what does all the math have to do with restoring the supposition and I mean ALL the I think there is something I was working on a big honking post but deo gratias I deleted it on Matthew things were pretty bad in academia and Church colleges in the and i am sure it was pretty bad is an have you been asked to give a lecture in an academic ask because an And in many ways a simple way to support and at the same time expose students to people with the education who come back to the should be extended to other professions as Hahaha  myopia means short a little a bit to draw in focus too as plain as the gnosis on your if allow me some all I do is teach at a top ten regional U and a top ten national liberal arts college and hobnob and consult politically in LA especially God try to get Charles De work more attention and prominence and spur the discussion and influence of So why reach out to someone like I mostly agree with you on this Matthew I struggle to articulate the problem I am inclined to think your wording is somewhat Is De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and or is it more between two types of contemporary I probably Our hates arise out of our deeper De Koninck to me is the not by much of modern like gainful John dissertation is seeking to change That I see as Joe Have are other localish academic Sorry drawing some To be they are no doubt institutionally overwhelmed with But I am voicing what many grads many if which want a bit more love from alma Scott I thought the math was disproportionate and was totally uninterested in it the way it was presented But it will get worse before it gets Mark my The emphasis on math got me my first this is an excellent question from De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and or is it more between two types of contemporary The usual TAC answer is the former of which is partially but not as true as they think it is In the math emphasis makes the degree from TAC seem more and I have been a close reader of De Koninck for a long long time as Matthew can attest JA I thought it was a good question as I quite know how to answer  Why might someone walk the road of the math emphasis in the BA Liberal No Catholic college is under obligation to solve the academic It just has an obligation to properly inform its students so they are educated in such a way as to support their Re being a reader of De his doctrine of his tactile his choice of the essay rather than the manual in his wide and very openminded reading Anyone who claims that there is too much math at TAC should refrain from comment on the there is too much and its often stupidly taught agree with the but not enough math In my stupid questions were entertained for way too while people who have a solid foundation in basic algebra wasted my precious can I like that not enough good too much wicked and its students know how to pour water out of an enthymeme if it had instructions written on the As to the there are better and worse no As to the In the math classes are philosophy of more than math and the program work without much math at home school problems I do wish TAC were serious about It really sorry but most people have the wherewithal to drag themselves through Descartes without serious My math exposure at TAC opened my I never understood math until after Junior Then I found out that I am good at This may be but TAC should tighten the math reqs for Step no more rolling i got more philosophy of math in one month I devoted to it in Berkeley than out of two years at by far the of In English Here is what high level undergraduate math actually looks Math Rite of Passage for Elite Intimidates Many The I remember taking lab classes senior year just to demonstrate the Lorenz transformations algebraically for the Michael Descartes simply requires the understanding that all he is doing least in the bits we is super basic He just I speak I only speak in gnosis and math What is the math the math the math And does this relate in any way to solving the problem of modern I but did you sit through those the TAC math curriculum as taught involves a lot of mystification in order to create the sense that something really big is going but it often The real lack though is TAC is an almost complete fail in that regard okay maybe TAC students drag themselves through it say it in math and I will apply my I am on a trial and the fact that Harvard has more advanced math than a small great arts school adds what at sorry  If math is the secret then it has to be related to emotion and because we are and these are separate studies within the liberal Math can be used like a or a Scott have you read Six Inaugural If then you given what just said Tighten the math reqs for admission would immediately produce better And more The sad thing the truly wasted courses at TAC are the language By teaching neither nor nor philosophical the result is no one learns and those that knew Latin merely forget say more about the need for That is a really interesting it needs more Rhetoric is the crux of the And define My sister was an Italian major in and at least half of her major was do you mean or do you mean structural define it who are you talking I was surprised that Augustine is not read as a rhetorical but a doctrinal the argument is I was surprised that the encyclicals were read as doctrinal not as rhetorical I was surprised doctrine as doctrine is Seems to make it more difficult and gnostic than not if you had Mark Clark for Yay Rhetoric is even more basically about invention than and if dont grasp you grasp rhetoric or its immense TAC most definitely grasp it views rhetoric as a kind of flowery con artist move Imma go back to Katie comment about Stiva and I think right that all the hope for their marriage comes from I is charming but He seems to think it is actually impossible for him to live any other life but the immoral one he Dolly is heroic in her effort on behalf of her but doing it I was not you Pater I truly think that sounds like a reasonable but I am not going to go back to comment number or whatever to see what you argued back so I understand if you wish to ignore going to work I decided to post my honking big Here I said it the tutors on the whole have a big variety of opinions on and IMO they come off as negative about academia most of all specifically in the situation of talking about it to curious unwashed many of whom they correctly see as probably not suited for that kind of but they realllly want to come out and say All walks and abilities of students are admitted to the and for most of them they would be happier elsewhere than The world is a big As insular as TAC I really think that most the facility is liberally educated and have some The tutors give the impression that they are the best thing completely on accident because they LOVE their life and they have a passion for Never has a tutor said to me the likes of is the best and only In most lamented there a grad school probably thinking they would love to teach advanced stuff Like I said when I doubled down and was serious about applying to doctoral studies and entering into the ivory I did have a number of tutors sit down with me and help in a number of including putting me in touch with as best as they I add that last because also true that tutors are the best academics and pretty much lack the discussed a tutor or two who may be the exception to but I talk As per the suggestion that the school thinks the academic well has been poisoned and should be mostly avoided separate at best in my experience that was the opinion held privately by a and with regard to certain specific areas in the It was something that the leadership was trying to counterbalance as best they The more common viewpoint is that academia has a lot of pitfalls and that it for everyone if we exercise a little common sense and TAC is not really at all a top tier school as far as its position in academia and admins and faculty are not really from that I think all this makes some more and is in fact there are improvements that could be made but they are normal A bright and motivated student can seen it got successful academics such as Matthew Peterson out and it will continue to especially if us alums harbor resentment any talk about a and unabashedly reach out to students who ask for our I had a bunch of successful TAC academics never get back to me when I got in touch with but not talk about We can be part of the or part of the Samantha did have Clark for Sophomore Then what are you complaining Andrw fair enough JA meant Structural but that the The point was they could try to teach any of those but by combining them all they fall between the I had a freshman section spend a whole class arguing over whether and think it was those words but it could have been and or something were the same word but different cases or different words ah agreed about falling between the stools And if one is wasting time like how is one going to learn the latin language at the same And if one is going to do the foreign language be studied separately far more never I know what you are complaining about and agree with your Samantha think Clark expected that the students would read along with him and simply learn the After how he learns My experience I already had Latin so could read and everyone who sat there terrified call on A very few went out of their way to learn the language outside class and actually learned Latin at in needs to be more intensive for it to really And dear Martin of head on I Clark was a great tutor if you were good at I pretty much sucked at Latin coming in with zero experience and bad study Blame myself sucks to well Wheelock doesnt help Seems to me they could do comparative linguistics just to give some That would include the basics of I taught ninth grade Latin at St Monica and I tried to add in some of that stuff to keep it It seemed to help even at that The kids loved I think they finally ditched the Wheelock at that could and should be done oh thank God I hope true did you have any particular material that you this is relevant to my I am While on Anthony Made would work in that mostly I would that problem with Latin at TAC is endemic to foreign language requirements in the academy Is it to study the language or is it to learn about How does one do either when it is required that students take a year or a semester of any foreign I have an old textbook about and believe it or I have a text from one of those Latin immersion courses that they do in graduate Classics departments that I used to great It had a bunch of cool linguistics stuff in Here is the Indo John Benjamins Publishing Company Language Made Plain the free encyclopedia Language Made Plain by Anthony Burgess is a  Beekes is So is Benveniste Clockwork Orange btw SO MUCH MONEY Adrw fair But I do think direct conversation about points of awkwardness is a good and is too often avoided on that But fair I can get from though Or I suppose I could get the Here is the Latin intensive the best Latin textbook out An Intensive Course This is a comprehensive introduction to Latin forms and designed to train the student in reading Catholic monarchist And until I have a tenure track calling me a is probably an abuse of I have that one It is Exquisite and for TAC should just man up and own medieval Latin instead of hankering after Magna Carta Latina is a great way to start you should market the thread as a MOOC Haha Katie Duda wins TNET for today This thread is actually going to BECOME a TAC And it will be the best one ever Charge people to look at the Thread Thread peep Thread In a world of substandard one A Post Structural Examination Of How Failed Intellectuals Rationalize Their Jobs in This thread is still I went away for the come and this is still going Thread Bingo the fluffy bunny of incredulity zooms around the bend so rapidly that the greyhound of language is in the starting If you read TACs founding specifically the section on Academic you see that the college seems to define modern academia as a because it rejects religion and is clear that they Association of University hold religious doctrine to be a restriction on academic for later in the same the conditions upon which a religious school insists when it appoints a teacher are described as limitations on his academic It is also strongly suggestive that modern academia is it would seem that the government of any institution by rules which prescind pretend to from all differences of or which negate in principle the possibility of governing by the must of necessity be This is a harsh I am not saying it is a false I asked one of the Founders once if they would ever amend the and he said no because it is like the But even the US Constitution can be starting a support group for Thread Voyeurs You all knew what you signed up I obviously because I am I am not asking anyone to shy away from this bold In I disagree with its tone and some of its content I see as But in Charity I invite its Dissent is the blood of JA Wipf and Stock Publishers Wipf and Stock publishes new works in biblical church philosophy and EMERGE Katie point about languages in academia I do not think the Catholic Church has ever taught or suggested that modern academia is a That seems like a statement of And our goal should be to not tear so the proposal should be more focused on truth always even if tenure is Or do not defend Just know what it It is a proposal from highly intelligent philosophers whose tenure was sacrificed for You are in good But truth will It always in age after TAC students are practically the only ones asking the and not afraid of how they approach the world or how they present the As soon as I saw that thumbnail in the I knew that JA Escalante had already gotten into book recommendation territory the book Aaron know you probably said somewhere lost in the early part of the but where did you go to apparently Mouthful of incorporates almost all of Made into its first Is TAC supposed to fix or just educate students I think it should do You do one without the To do you need to be able to explain what you I think most would disagree with the because it does not provide a full range of It does not address the whole just a very small part of the so the graduate may find it difficult to intuit the challenges they are facing in modern academia which are largely not And is we have thread we have holistic thread gnostic crystal healings Too many TAC grads stand in antipathy against as opposed to Most everyone in modern academia is in Where is the human Where is the human This is no less academic than everyone in modern academia is in Sounds like time to end the To put them out of their To nuke Or to address the causes of the ignorance with the full range of scholastic and scientific Or to just state are are and nuke wish evil upon Joel that would be great Duane I like his especially the analogy Greatly demystifies the sense one gets from certain people at TAC about that Analogy is a TAC strong gnostic meaning please I fully confess to The I am hard on my alma mater because I love it and I think it is so money and the students and tutors even know And I probably want more from it than it is possible for it to The best Latin Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata Do you love it like a fancy perfect in every but now you have passed it and it is Joshua although analogy is presented as a mysterious doctrine in the world at large I had a year long on analogy with John That was Greig I second Joel Duane It was not At what point does a Thread reach critical and if it what will the blast radius American journalist just beheaded by Why is our prezzie not doing anything about and the reason I said because it was Friday afternoons on the porch at Bernards and we smoked did you miss when I announced I was starting Lingua Latina with my students for the first time went super I was so jealous of that you guys were the worst with your excluding of felt badly This course actually infuriated a few people in our Greig Damn it the hell do they make navigating these threads so effing This thread moves too fast for my old For what I could not of asked for more from In the glue that binds my muse with experience both cultural experience as well as practical experience out in the And likewise in everyday Looking I realize that had I mentioned the fact that there were interested John almost certainly would have met somewhere where we all could  try to contact John Brungardt and maybe we can start it this weekend I know he is super and may not be able to be that If need be start the by no means am I qualified to lead it in any Or is modern academia something What is the I think I missed although I might have missed the Joel what are you Daniel not sure that is location of the Analogy I concur with before starting a billion and one groups for would people be interested in a separate forum for philosophical discussions on Daniel thought I tagged you in the initial A facebook discussion group of Duane lectures on I am Here is the link to Introduction to Philosophy and Logic Duane PhD Free Save I have already been working through Masterful As have but hoping peer pressure will make me more motivated to go through them I would only recommend The discussion should be on using insights as our Edward are you Like a facebook The math and science program needs a thorough but how good it is as of is completely open What I mean of the tutors I had for one raised actual poignant lines in that but correctly as far as it was quick to leave that line of inquiry and show that in many ways you could the and understand its without metaphysical questions about the existence of The second was and he was had an exuding enthusiasm for he really exemplified the fellow not the An he presented a proof of trisecting the In his it the most common trisectrix and was more accessible than the other but he missed what In how many even ones great at math made fools of themselves trying to prove the or trisect the or square the circle or any number of things actually often more than a century to be While hyperbolic trisectrix was and fit in with the Apollonian it was not not in the sense in which it is mean when people say there is no Euclidean edge and compass The third tutor was and frankly not only mystified the thing through but was mystified himself by what I found to be basic algebra and My lab was far The was Molly Maybe it would have been great if she was of better being a true would have been fun to I when she was of sounder But as it only one tutor raised pertinent questions wrt philosophy of but abandoned them in order to just Another was essentially a fellow student still make elementary but was Another was out of his and the last past her But here is the quality of the mathematics tutorial be so dependent on the They need to figure out WHAT we are doing in that it is philosophy of then I had one class on my very first on The rest missed the Maybe we need to read on the Division and Method of ask what existence mathematicals have What thinking is I own a prime domain And been trying to come up with a good use for These people make a forum package specially designed to make online conversations as pleasant as Discourse not pages Why break conversations into awkward and arbitrary where you have Edward think getting people involved is tricky Fighting facebook is I What if it could connect it to facebook like Goodreads and other online apps are Or here is is Euclid a valid Proclus lists that proposition and many others as imagine reading Euclid with and asking the questions that are naturally still debated that very first the objection is that it assumes the circles which is to assuming the continuity Going further you hit the question of whether geometry and that is continuous and discreet quantity are truly divisible into distinct And the question of what is could say that the Elements presume we are studying continuous but does that mean Prclus anticipated a more modern conception of where one just starts with quantity and cannot assume continuity or discreteness is its You could have years of philosophy of math just proceeding from the questions raised by and all the time engaging contemporary I had Clark for Euclid and our discussions were great a somewhat iffy section that largely to blame Letteney for and we had plenty of philosophical discussions while also the great Cain junior and I thought he was and Richard for senior He was Maybe I was just How difficult would that be to I know almost nothing about html and building I think the way it would work is that anyone who has a Facebook or Google account could basically join in with minimal I am intent on making a bigger fool of suppose TAC does read more Aristotle and Thomas than any other and suppose they even do more Euclid and read more Bible without dogma in freshman year than any other Suppose this is all Why is this a good Is the college presenting these things in the right way to help its students grow in to help them approach academia and the world with or just a kind of It would basically be up sign in with join That hard to the site allows you to log in via then have a discussion meant to facilate communiation with parishoners and between am guessing you are thinking of something like that Joshua may be but I think my class did discuss that at TAC Bk problem that and do we not read the Division and I guess I went to so many extra seminars on it that I just assumed we And having it on a separate forum might be ideal as far as getting people who dislike Facebook David to participate not sure if really possible to make the quality of a math or science tutorial not dependent on the abilities of the but there is also surprising inertia to get people to use these other But you can make it less so I am up for anything as long as it is epically Like Duplo Lego Division and method is in senior exactly one class Edward problem is when the student body also limits half of them never learned basic not saying all the students should be math wizards We raised no philosophical questions after the definitions and and challenged no The Saturday seminars where we did the Division and Method were far superior to the cursory treatment it got in seminar with the general student population I had an extremely lousy Euclid but probably the wisest way to not address the of contemporary universities is to put wax in your for those there was an extra seminar or seminars on Div Method every year I was and I went to the one on the De and the one one Were you in those same Saturday Joshua This would have been your freshman Basic algebra is pretty easy to I do not see that as the real the mortal sin Best thing in the world was watching MacArthur resurrect a point he was arguing with and watching Nieto just put his hand down on the table in MacArthur was like a pit was wrong on this but he dropping it till he was satisfied I think the purpose of a liberal education is to give one tools to begin further pursuits I think TAC does this The emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know it aids us in having a well ordered mind and The theology tutorials are such that one can benefit from the perennial wisdom of theologians without being the inherent Catholicity of the tutorials and the school result in many TAC gets people started on the Maybe I did those starting I attended a two year long seminar on Division and Method We got to the mathematicals by the end of the first year only made it to the first couple i even went to those extra tutorials after I  emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know is seeing that we know things really that big a The other thing that I loved was how Nieto was so deferential to even when Nieto not being a naturally deferential kinda guy when he thought someone else had something Yeah For Ever been to a philosophy How are you picturing the format I am thinking something where there would be conversation threads for individual but also for general and you would be able to subscribe to them and get My main point is that if TAC more explicitly framed the saying we are studying this to raise these sort of then even if the tutor is not as then at least some direction as to what we are doing is And I agree with Joel HF whom FB will no longer let me Baic algebra is supposedly required just to graduate homeschoolers learning then they must be treated as people without a HS them get a GED before inherent Catholicity of the How is freshman theology inherently been over this ad for one only Catholic tutors who take the oath can teach theology at for some Seeing that we know things is a But we are not We can see that we know Are you pretending to be and doing math to address this role you are I am asking a serious question basically a separate thread for a separate topic and possibly some categorization of Joel HF I can tag do you Zedlick should be allowed to teach Possibly also a parallel blog for original Joshua Kenz I tag WTF do you mean for Math or freshman I suppose the Catholic tutor can also present an outlay of dogma to accompany Sacred Scripture in freshman theology if he not to force anything on but just to present these infallible You can tag anyone if you type an Facebook has some odd rule about when it suggests people to tag I see that some moderns doubt you can know But most students at TAC do not doubt Is this approach to math kind of like an academic apologetics Where does it What is the Langley are you able to extract all of this into a searchable when you do your wizardry with the stats and the graphs and the what The yeah Right now I have something like the first posts in searchable Do students have recurring trouble seeing they know hence math as a reminder that they I think exposure to philosophy tends to generate skepticism Especially since teenagers generally have an inflated view of what they think they know I mean mentioned the prohibition on teaching Joel HF if each user had a kind of blog like old Notes feature where you could tag and they could be in a central I doubt I have to jump off for a while for some calls the But I hope I have cemented my reputation as a complete Please know you can know a formula to show there are lots of behind the scenes politics about who gets to teach what There are tutors who are Catholic even whose course options seem And McArthur did once say that they only expect tutors to be able to teach about of the It is to my an apologetics My point about that one is meant in this Mathematics is the clearest of the It is very easy to perceive the movement from principles to One can also see that one is A strong background in math enables a student to reflect upon what it means to and to point to things that he does This is especially helpful as one enters into the more difficult sciences of philosophy of nature and I think the restrictions make since the view is that there is a certain way to do philosophy that leads to the A school that thinks that would necessarily take care to ensure that the philosophy therefore tutorials are taught by teachers who pursue the truth in that I see that but the principles of revelation are not known by math or And these principles we all must not only but Indeed these principals are but not reasonable in a mathematical or syllogistic way but precisely in other So I have to keep the college being why so much of but not this other for the same reason that Plato supposedly had a sign over the doorway to the Academy that said no one ignorant of geometry There is probably little that one could point to in Freshman theology that one could call aside from the tutor and the majority of the The Catholicity is seen in the structure of the At the end of freshman year the student becomes quickly aware of the many challenges presented by the I think it begins to become clear that one need some authority to turn to in order to begin making sense of we begin Sophomore year with On Christian you seem to be presuming that the study of scripture inherently Let us not forget while the college is it is not producing per but liberally educated men and People study the Scriptures without being sure some here would but the Bible is the  But reading it is not necessarily My tutor in Freshman Theology definitely guided us to specific And he was one of the less pushy Or less obviously but that mean that they either do it correctly or engaged in a Catholic activity in some sense of the If there would be no more Nothing that in the Ecumenical for but still things we have arrived at without I think we Or that you want to push this point too I had God rest his And that is all I will Did you mean up Daniel In my Freshman theology I was accused of being overly Which was an odd choice of considering we had non and those that I argued with the most were Catholic and just butchering the scripture was over pharaohs a person essentially ended up saying that what God did was I pointed out that the response was he fulfil the three and I asked knowledge or will happy with But the semester I pulled the tutor said that perhaps his criticism was too and some people sometimes need to be smacked I remember being confused about what we were it Catholic or was it just groping around a literary Sophomore year with MacArthur was great I had Paietta junior year and that was horrid my section was year was I my experience was terrible I do think I would have rather had say Shields for Freshman I think it was Dante who discovered the sign above gate reading whomever is ignorant of geometry shall never But I would think if the Freshman view of Scripture leads to questions and a realisation of the need for an then that points to the not the Doctors of the lest we think Authority on matters of faith comes from a person or This may lead the students to think that their collective wisdom is remember being confused about what we were it Catholic or was it just groping around a literary think the thread might have ended with this so are you considering setting something Mhm TAC students need any particular class or set of classes to believe their wisdom is Take for I have never been Be sure to not cut the fools out of any Fools are the food of Pope kinda interesting to be in class with infallible people who disagree And you people think the current off the cuff interviews are my is why Brian Kelly should start Greg Bryant at running back against Next Brian Kelly was a lousy soccer But I am a Is the Pope allowed to establish the DH in the Asking for a ANATHEMA Is your dog named Anathema I once knew a his name was He was very Worrying about the boundaries of Summorum Pontificum will be the least of your problems when How does one word an excommunication of an entire as we all know only one person in each class is truly endowed in who was the infallible speaker for his pronounced me infallible in the commons my junior you can see by our mutual pronouncements of each infallibility that I am truly I see no such credentials for the rest of Cato used to end every speech in the following manner clavatoris designati rescindenda And quite right he was Was he the son of my honors prof at Yes are you teaching if I might Sam Almeida was something else Oh guessing he is ridiculously I think he sat in our doing his own when he was like one thing you might say about And it would be South City Community my all the small Christian schools are always in desperate need of Latin I taught at the classical school in and it so happened that the one here needed me as I think it depends on who you Sam Almeida or anyone In if person presents is that taken I kid of I all Almeidas His father was a fine a humble and beautiful When he had to dismiss me from the honours program I think it hurt him more than It depends if the dogma is relevant to the understood correctly and presented in a way conducive to improving the how Dogma is supposed to be presented and always trusted on some people present it that to improving is key here for in my freshman theology section we had a student who kept reference it got until the tutor finally lost it  can you tell me about Descartes knew but lost sight of how you can know How was this Sometimes the format of the discussion needs to improve for the sake of instead of Dogma being presented in a way that is useful for the   Here is a Dogma on existence is not merely an object of rational but also an object of supernatural This kind of fits nicely into this because the Bible points to the knowability of God in both the Old and New are these two ways of equal I is God as object of reason more important than God as object of Does that imply at one and the same for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of I think that is the correct and full I think and Ott or whoever quoting exactly Now the state of fallen it is morally impossible for man without supernatural to know with absolute and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural is a religious truth of the natural Also is not religious and moral truths of the natural But it is among those religious truths of the natural God exists is a conclusion of metaphysics or natural so it is a religious truth of the natural yes it is a religious truth of the natural or whoever quoting exactly Are you saying this is not a Perhaps not in its current I think it is a religious truth of the natural order And I think see why you would But I generally would if the Church were to define it would probably be from Vat I and is stated as a negative You are Thank to be not denying truth nor the necessity to believe it when correctly  Unlike who frequently denies dogma because I think I understand it when I do the opposite of to even understand you need to be able to talk about it And I wish there was more of that at the colleges I went I wish Christendom was better at that too I am guessing you are conversing with is blocked I hear And I wish TAC had more of that Dogma piece in my freshman theology seminar Suarez held that the existence of God could be known by faith and reason at the same time in the same and he argued this was because the formal object Most theologians disagree with I have no idea what side Scott is but I assume he is asserting it as Despite rating it as a disputed question and explaining both Scott seems to be asserting that one and the same truth can be a matter of faith and reason simultaneously and furthermore asserting that that position is  I think quoting something like proposition Why you just ask Would that not be more Instead of placing sources and suppositions into my I asked that imply at one and the same for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of Scott think that is the correct and full I was talking to someone you Feel free to quote me so he can He is a liar and a If he is quoting Ott he knows damn well out says it is a disputed Or maybe he is not actually reading but like a lazy uneducated troll just quoting a list on a website that fails to differentiated common opinion from de fide as Ott does I think it implies it can be in the synthesis between faith and reason in the area of natural but not in the realm of supernatural namely those things which can only be known by But I presented the Dogma in regards to natural I think it helps make the point that Faith aids This is what TAC teaches in its Charter under the maxim seeking It seems like he might not have understood a prior question I asked Perhaps all asserting is that for some people existence is a matter of faith and for others a matter of where is it in Vatican where was that Who is asking the question I cannot And why cannot I see Someone has blocked Which generally plays havoc with these but I do not wish to discuss with a hostile where exactly in Vatican I did you get the text you quoted up not just forwarding his necessary to repeat conversations to resolve confusions when two participants in a thread have blocked each I will assert It may be but I will assert and I am very open to the being No man can know supernatural truths by but only by faith and All these truths are Man may know natural revelation such as God exists by reason but some do not know this by but by And even natural theological truths cannot proceed without admixture of error without This is faith seeking Faith and revelation aids to perfect metaphysics in perfects sacred I block no And here is the Vat I Let me know what you I think all that is of just gave me Waiting on the Vatican I Although I probably understand of Edward here is what Ott says Existence is not merely an object of natural rational but also an object of supernatural Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same It is a disputed point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of Many outstanding scholastic theologians of Albertus and many later theologians assert that such is because the formal object is different Divine and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being on the is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same impossibile quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum th As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot with the obscurity of It possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by According to the teaching of it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge of material II I had a rule as a mod on a forum No quoting Ott unless you can actually quote online Patience is a Internet connect is bad on the great what Ott says about that Existence is not merely an object of natural rational but also an object of supernatural Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same It is a dispute point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of Many outstanding scholastic theologians of Albertus and many later theologians assert that such is because the formal object is different Divine and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being on the is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same impossibile quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum th As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot with the obscurity of It possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by According to the teaching of it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge of material II NP eagerly await seeing where in Vatican I this quote is from the state of fallen it is morally impossible for man without supernatural to know with absolute and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural This is good but not exactly what you are waiting God cannot deny nor can truth ever be in opposition to The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of you mean you block no one since you unblocked right Did you copy and paste the quote from a source other than Vatican Did you mean that the quote was Vatican as in Vatican I was the authority cited to support the and thank you for that gratuitious high way up there around Free copy of CCC if you find CCC is not VI I know When you say what do you If he cannot actually quote call him on it The doctrine and the source text in the document of Vat Quoting a website that even get the division of Ott correct is from part not part is just junk what exactly is being To be clear you are doubling down on this exact quote being from the state of fallen it is morally impossible for man without supernatural to know with absolute and without admixture of all religious and moral truths of the natural Is that Scott is quoting from Vatican and I find the quote just aiming for That is not the exact quote from Vat Where was the quote That quote is from He derives it from this quote is indeed thanks to this divine that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human even in the present state of the human be known by everyone without with firm certitude and with no intermingling of Which IS in Vatican session chapter Also found in Denzinger and is nothing more than what Thomas says in I Just so everyone is clear so being This is not it but this is good only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many we went through that before an arrogant and a mean one to This is what I with gnosis I knew there was a reason you and I were facebook Here is something someone else pointed that was in Vatican is indeed thanks to this divine that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human even in the present state of the human be known by everyone without with firm certitude and with no intermingling of Vatican session chapter maybe I should ask what is your point twitter format characters or Boy the blocking sure makes things silly to I feel like a theologian who has lost his mind Things would be less silly to read if I had been less of a stick in the mud about the exact origin of that one That is it THANKS TO DIVINE matters concerning God can be known without admixture of But without DIVINE it follows that matters concerning God are known by reason alone with admixture of hence the And here is another revelvant section from Vat anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly but that all the dogmas of the faith the basic ones of natural theology on can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural let him be I think this is worth understanding because some think in by reason without can useful to perfecting sacred This it seems to me is It is useful when it is perfected by and and faith and revelation once it helps brings sacred theology to completion in the Thomistic I think this is why metaphysics is different that in faith enabled him to perfect and write the Summa as a synthesis of Faith and Your parenthetical is I Michael can you please simply call me Thank It could You can strike the entire You That is a very TNET utterance Daniel Lendman Andrew Seeley blocked me because I disputed him on the issue of He said my opposition to or at least same sex was a My position is that attraction is a moral and natural a kind of deficient in the same way that same sex attraction is a natural cause aimed at a good and desirable I consider myself a TNET our ancients stories foretell of such a since you spelled my name okay Scott How do you pronounce Is it I already smoked the but there is a Cuban Romeo y Julieta for anyone in the area who wants to have a real section to I will keep the Partagas I have a Montecrito in my right Perks to living in while I got the Cubans without leaving I will give you that you have better I can smoke a while drinking Bourbon and cleaning a I prefer my I prefer your The block function on facebook is for people who cannot handle the a pox upon you The TNET needle is stuck in an old familiar Weinberg is that explains everything Do you guys know the one about the I know a Latvian Latvian man hear knock on Voice say potato I come to give free Man very open Is no potato Is secret Two Latvian are look at One see Other see impossible Is same Can we agree that Latvia is a free and sovereign do you have magisterial authority that says Land of the brave and Latvian man are start read Thread never Man  Still in but you can sign up with either Facebook or Three Latvian boys conscripted into Ship sails to Three boys jump Never look Tom Malone the Latvian jokes have Almost to Anyone read the great rhetorician from the early Interesting how he uses the but was not I could joke about my but it is too long and pun is the lowest from of are there any Latvian I feel like I should say what she but not sure why There are lots of Latvian My wife is and my grandmother was We have four and they are very I am open to arranged We have land and Food for thought in many ways by the classical liberal the said you cannot know the truths of nature without the revelation of the God of My Solveig is Happy Thanks for the invite hours Joel Please keep me posted as the seminar on DB Scott I have five I am sure we can arrange some Your daughters are but the offer of land and sheep would seal the deal for Jeffrey I had a look at those but not sure they were the same ones you had In any I fell back to defending what I see as Pater would be interested or could steer me in a better a direction Looks like too long Furiis accensus et ira hinc spoliis indute meorum eripiare Palllas te hoc Pallas immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine hoc dicens ferrum adverso sub pectore condit Ablaze with the furies and terrible in clad in the spoils of mine be snatched away from Pallas by this Pallas sacrifices you and takes up the punishment from your defiled Saying fevered he strikes the IRON deep through under the First like to take up the final words of the poem two Aeneas about to grant at the sight of his ally loses Burnt up with the and terrible with wrath he flashes the anger of It hearkens back to the of the the same as menis in the Iliad begins with the Aeneid ends in who very like own who was the hope of his the crown was struck down by Surely it is a very different a different from what causes it is the loss of the hope for the future of But is this mere righteous Before and at the end he is shaking hot with no less than three words to describe like the furies and like the goddess Juno no both a rage from the bowels of hell and a wrath that is proper to the gods we could call it anger doubled He trips over name in his Is as he Pallas who does the To whom would Pallas be sacrificing How is it not rather Aeneas sacrificing to Pallas is that a reference to How is this not an act of revenge in hot And all after Turnus had just conceded Surely the wars that follow or rather continue might have been avoided had he spared This is not to say that Turnus is that But opportunity to end the war is hereby Regarding the sacrifice this reminds me of the practice of Romans to sacrifice the leaders of the conquered enemy to the fathers and for the fatherland the play Titus Is he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in name to FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to future Rome that will To put it Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom prince captive and chief to his father and the Whereas the war in the Iliad was coming to a here the war for Aeneas has just begun but also the war to gain empire while continually expanding a war that shall last more than years continuously aside The Iliad hold a stick to years versus and change hundreds more at the end of the Pax perhaps by is signified his visceral desire for revenge of the foul deed of murdering a one whom Aeneas was charged to a nefas And by to is signified a more intellectually apprehended matter of injustice to be namely bounden duty to render good his word with as well as repayment to Turnus for killing a king before his time and even glorying in it by taking the belt as prize and badge of But the difficult phrase is more important adverso sub pectore It is THE sentence of the what been waiting for the whole Of course condit is in direct reference to the opening lines conderet and many attempts to do There is then that first obvious meaning This is a founding act of some The other two possible literal meanings here are but this is only said of the and the war is not over as I said but to one after the other until Aeneas himself dies and his body floats down a river Other cities are still to be founded before finally Rome It is unlikely he is burying putting the sword which would have been by an act of clemency he did NOT Perhaps it could signify burying the sword into the ground under considering the violent force and rage of the Here condit means which is to be considered given his could also mean or as a but I think those are We are left with the literal and the obvious allusion to is said of the chest the seat of wisdom where one rolls thoughts Is he striking down the mindset of those opposed the glory of How then does last of the oppose Is too great to submit his personal glory for the glory of the Or INSTEAD is the meaning that Aeneas the iron age of Rome below the in the seat rather of the It reminds one of the advice of shade war down the but Aeneas here does not spare the which Turnus now do we think Turnus will rise again and not keep his And in what way is Aeneas here imponere imposing the custom of peace that must await Of course all not to say that the final lines unmeaningful nor the final two words under the and even the word portends that fury will follow And how not with all Latium up in arms and the last hero Let me suggest a few last things that at for grows and lives by is the metal of the was the bronze The age of heroes is It is no longer for personal glory but the glory of It is with an iron sword that Rome bit by bit It is the kingdom mixed of iron and clay that Daniel speaks But here lies another It is also a reference to the founding act of who is the real founder of Rome and does so with his own sword BURIED in his a as Augustine points Rome is the city founded on built by iron and ruled with polluted in coeptis in fraternal Of the worst But it is not so clemency was often Was revenge the It is by very clemency and extending citizenship to allies and keeping troth with them that cemented amity in Italy and extended her such that others desired her protection and sought But it is a tenuous and difficult thing as borne out in her And it was difficult at times not to act in Perhaps that is what the poet is showing What does it mean to as Anchises populos to rule peoples with to beat down the proud with to show clemency to the humble to impose the custom of And I cannot see how Aeneas shows clemency or imposes not the opposite and he has not But did even Or finally was the advice Did Aeneas leave hell out of the gate of false dreams and the advice given it ends most We know what Aeneas next does nor much detail of what Only that he will found a city but not Rome and wage war til he dies to be washed out to Just as book seven chronicled the cause of the war and the unleashing of hideous to the final words propel the founding spirit into interminable wars to establish The first word is and tis a book of a man who brings war from Troy to the peaceful coast of To sum is it not an act of with the necessary sacrifice and the aim implied glory of the Roman with demonstrating the mode and means of rule all in one act and the belt and death of Pallas Et laevo pressit pede talia fatus exanimem rapiens immania pondera baltei impressumque una sub nocte iugali caesa manus iuvenum foede thalamique quae Clonus Eurytides multo caelaverat quo nunc Turnus ovat spolio gaudetque nescia mens hominum fati sortisque futurae et servare modum rebus sublata Turno tempus erit magno cum optaverit emptum intactum et cum spolia ista diemque At socii multo gemitu lacrimisque impositum scuto referunt Pallanta O dolor atque decus magnum rediture haec te prima dies bello haec eadem cum tamen ingentis Rutulorum linquis X Turnas having slain And having said these kind of he pressed the unsouled with his left seizing the vast weight of the belt and the unspeakable horror a band of youth on one nuptial night foully slain and gory wedding which Clonus Eurytides had carved with much In which spoil now Turnus triumphs and rejoices at mind unknowing of fate and future hap or to guard the upraised by favorable For Turnus the time will come when greatly he would wish Pallas sold and when hate those spoils and But crowding comrades with much groan and tears bore back placed upon his O much sorrow and splendor returning to your this the first day gave you to this same took you when still you left behind vast piles of Though I do not comment on each The entire above passage is most moving and Here I examine the that caused the NEFAS both depicted and that of Turnus but this question does Aeneas pay back justly the nefas or take it up again as Turnus by committing one himself take up the punishment upon For clearly Turnus snatches the belt but the nefas which makes it so What is depicted on the belt is It is worth long Since I was clueless except a one sentence I lucked into finding a lengthy article Sword Belt of on the all It is a fascinating article that tackles this labyrinthine story and and some points on the belt The question in that article that is of great importance I think is Were the Danaid statues appropriated from Egypt after the battle of If so then Augustus has taken up the beltium and the nefas just as Turnus glorying in possession of So too I ask the follow up did Aeneas not take up spoils from Turnus we but some Was it nefas for Aeneas to strike down Turnus pleading for the boy was friend to As Homer points out he is like whose glory is but FOR ONE as indeed is all but fleeting and often turned to infamy More importantly he was son of If I remember Evander was the first Italian They were troth Aeneas promised to watch over the It is this blood covenant by the blood of and the likeness of Pallas to Ascanius that is Not the friendship of Achilles and but the Roman alliance that bound her and built her Such was stronger than anything that Greece had produced which as Herodotus points out would have fallen to pieces after Salamis had Xerxes not left clever gal The Greeks were relatively weakly and I doubt would have withstood the likes of And it also was fatal a political After his greatest victory what should have been the end of the war Hannibal lost the war because he did not march directly on having thought he But from the plutocatric and Moloch worshiping ivory coast city that ruled its allies by Hannibal did not dream that the Roman allies would not defect but instead come to her And thus in he how profound the irony of He lost not because of an error in his art but because of an error in his But what of the The belt is an article of distinction not like a shield or helmet in not clear that it served as a sheathe It depicts unspeakable Unlike the shield of Achilles which is described in here two lines are given to hint at the horror it is NOT TO BE after It depicts the slaughter of youths unripe by their would forced to Egyptus and brothers at war Romulus and Remus or Augustus and dragged their offspring into the feud that would devour their own ancient The particulars are confusing and various in but Egyptus made his daughters kill by their own cousins to consummate the wedding and wrath at the same a fratricide They are the Danaan origin of the incestuous rulers of Egypt one The article points out Cleopatra was a serial conjugicide herself and went on to Antony as we know she had seduced then deceased Julius Caesar and after Antony had married this the article points out is mentioned explicitly by Virgil by nefas Aegypta Egyptian unspeakable Is it right to glory in yet another internecine the after all those that had sucked dry the blood of the youth of Is Actium itself being compared to the incestuous most Does like put an end to foul deeds or rather take glory in them Virgil in these few lines connects the battle of the original act of the founding and the horror of a wedding night gone regicide are stirred in one gory O HOW can this depict some right But a It is said that Clonus Eurytides who is engraved the belt with much Virgil waste a sentence on this my the word caelaverat from means carved or But who in his right mind would carve such a horrible And on a an article of HONOR a point itself of Good how not only to do such a thing but to BOAST of Is Virgil criticizing Is Virgil criticising the ENTIRE history of let me note here that I find the least most unremarkable character in all great that is character speech I could write much more on I have wondered whether Virgil is subtly dimming august My only other memorable view of Augustus is from in whom he appears a cynical but less familiar with Antony and Cleopatra than Julius wherein he coldly marks friends and foes alike for But caelaverat can also refer to composing poetry as Horace points out visu celatumque novem to see and engraved with the nine muses from my nifty never used Old Latin dictionary that almost predates the era of the novel did Clonus engrave the crime and gild it over with MUCH gold just as Virgil is writing this nefas and gilding it over Is the nefas engraved but covered in gold an analogy for gilding a foul making look glorious and a badge of honor what really depicts under the gold horrible Or to be precise to gild in beautiful gold what should not be and should not be seen or Curiouser and Not to mention again the word is first of the poem and the founding is with a sword in the end and those bellowing words of the Sybil reverberating throughout the poem and that age which still ring in my HORRIDA For as you know the Catechism of Trent is a punishment from And shall the city of and the new glory in its deeds of Did Actium extinguish the crimes of Egypt and her nefarious or take them upon As that article did not Augustus glory in triumph at OR did he Aeneas extinguish a foul THAT is the repeated Is order restored and peace achieved at last or is it a temporary false peace but that will not last and DID NOT Let me suggest this is but a beginning and I should investigate it more and it is worth investigating Virgil is hinting at something doing clear finger pointing as that be it is As Daniel Lendman mentioned much there are crimes that he too would not and I hesitate Now the poet is not to kill the boy himself but in snatching the belt AND the nefas upon And what is What is his To glory in this act that should not be gloried in gaudet Again does Aeneas himself not take up the punishment from the blood befouled by his own deed of not showing mercy but acting in hot Let me put it this The poet suggests Turnus would he might not have killed but how is Turnus guilty of murdering when Pallas has just gone on a rampage and heaped up piles of I see any opportunity for him to spare the boy who was rash in the first place to enter the Not not Aeneas might have spared but he was overwhelmed with For which too how Turnus was to blame who like a hero at Troy would glory in a deed not to be gloried the killing of a But for a and a founder of a more control is necessary than Aeneas And as to might it not be overlooked because that was what was that was what was it was the universal Who did not take some trophy from Who does not Turnus after all killed the prince of the who was indeed a leader in his and who did glorious at might be Turnus was yet young and had been betrothed to marry Lavinia before the well curled men of the East and thus was cut off before his expected consummation and by the reneging of his In short Turnus is a more close comparison for the description on the belt than not had the chance imponere to impose the custom of peace and did rather he BEAT down the the In he SCREWED IT ALL how I see many of deeds Without the wits of he wanders aimlessly and acts without He just follows the gods and never uses his judgement about Who was Who was To me at Aeneas is neither nor merely nor again nor returning to the end of the spoliis is a bit Does this indicate that that that that actually BELONGS to Aeneas and NOT I say this for spoils are what we take of an to us they are not If we reacquire we have acquired our possessions and they are no longer articles of glory and But here he says And Why not spoliis meis Why of Who are if not the Romans who come here Spoils the belt the foul deeds they belong to to the The spoils and glories of the Danaid statues the triumphal the prisoners led in the prisoners led to be sacrificed to the patres and for the for the glory not of the individual but the glory of pagan Rome and not eternal And the honor with respect to Rome is the idol in iron that rules with a rod of iron and a sword and that like be ruined by a rolling from which will emerge Eternal Rome to be sure as well as but is not itself eternal but the City of A brief note on the passage from where shade bids Aeneas leave Bk tantum insano iuvat indulgere O dulcis What does it help to indulge in such insane O sweet This does not happen without the will of the not right for you to carry away from here a sojourner nor does that ruler of Olympus above the there happy things and a kingdom and a royal spouse are portioned Away tears of beloved dilectae pelle the irony that Aeneas Creusa does womanly tears for her whom he but it is Creusa who is He must leave behind all attachments to found not new but a new city As Virgil makes clear nothing of old Troy shall be a part of the new Thus nothing is He must follow the will of Zeus and leave his love to marry another for a higher not mere lust But I am uncertain how this affects the horrors Note the use of fas is not the same as Fas is just Nefas is unspeakably Aeneas must not follow his own desire to please But does he purge himself of his If how can he be so impassioned in the To pursue that inquiry I would need more a note on the destruction of which was the ending of an age and a type of the final But old pagan Rome has been the Phoenix is arising from the The order of the Phoenix unlike that of the takes its cue from ab chaos and the Phoenix is a term for the one who was cast down or risen anointed It is the what degree they know what they are doing I know Straussian be They are rebuilding a new old Rome Virgil shows many other terrible aspects of the rise of there are many benefits as but it is very other than not so the not I would be grateful to be shown the hope that Virgil had in the midst of the darkness which clearly he Pater I have a chance to respond on While essay is I recommend doing a ctr F on professor While Pink is I He is not addressing the elephant in the McCall points out the lunacy of fiddling while Rome Do look at his lengthy For IMO the of of is a wild goose chase that covers for the REAL Not only on liberty but While wasting time finding contintuity is that eodem sensu or is that a continuity of continuous bit by Daniel mind having a looksee at probably better than I can It was But still what is meant by and Is it not a means to repress if not meaningful discussion about important matters that not only are disputable but concern as McCall teachings of the Gratias multas still have to look again at the but that can sit The RORATE On the coercive authority of the a response to Your textual analysis of the Aeneid is and it is certainly a much more detailed argument than my impressionistic comments way back when on the Let me read what you have written again and think about In your admirable effort to be it seems to me you have not completely closed the door on the position I was so let me keep one toe in that door for the A A very cakey Solveig Weinberg Sweet Pray for my dear She is very good at and perhaps she will be first Solveig to go to Moon over O O So so Roses shed their thorns for message me that I came to unsubscribe but I saw it and want to read it since pertinent to a class I have I have just been rolling over those passages in my mind the last few And in the end decided to make the strongest argument I I do want a new And I have hardly read the whole Aeneid with that much I will say That my Latin only REALLY improved when I started teaching Oerberg And I only first really appreciated the Aeneid a few years It was a piece of dreary work since grade And poetry translates so much than Homer in my It is beautiful in its conciseness and striking thoughts English IS my Greek is almost useless except for showing off now and a lengthier bit on AUSTEN defend my position though not my trolling I have several complaints about Jane Henry of a is thoroughly obnoxious and perhaps he skewed me a But I do have the following problems particular with P and P which was my The of that ending and selfish Dethroning duty in favor of This is easily achieved in P of P because the arranged marriages were only about keeping the wealth already far This is quite the other than say The spiritual bankrupcy of the A serious In P of is either pride or prejudice really overcome in the Are the with few exceptions and those like Darcy only But that relates to number one and three and Who would not detest having such as only hope of security and Cruel torture she lays seeds for modern feminism in its essence is a rejection of woman qua woman and is anti I think these and the problem with the novel itself diminish her work in my The novel is a form that by its nature I think is Not that I read that but they wear out quickly or I should say too quickly has taken many They present something new or with more or less but they are not Even the their depths are plumbed and when the shortsightedness of their writers becomes clear or their less than comprehensiveness is they lose And so many authors are SO CONFUSED and That there are a few I would look at Another way to look at them is as distractions or fanning false false idols Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales take the stories that Alban Butler writes and try not to wenden off the not One can savor again and again the lines of a well written short or Similarly with which in the ever presents something the old tales recast are But perhaps been reading the wrong not that I completely disparage the art It presents a mirror to It falls in ever inspiring or showing forth the beautiful or the What are you talking what are you talking There any arranged marriaged in P and What spiritual What do you mean by Where is that WTF button we discussed about number are you talking How does she lay seeds for modern feminism in a way that is Is this more I tell with almost as bad as Give up Your position has been thoroughly rebutted after what was clearly careful consideration of the individual My questions are entirely I find everything John said  that was directed at you Yes I I can take an we can be then  her work is very It is not the trash James indeed better than But not without I am That is There are better and worse ways to ask questions about things one finds are you talking is not one of the better I think by John is talking not about involuntary but let me channel my inner good and advantageous for what I think I agree with your points about Austen for the most But I think I agree with the claim that the as an art necessarily falls short of poetry or Is that your there WAS an hoped for But i have had enough of my long The tone of this thread continues remain amusing posts love it I am vastly I even read the regular news feed any He has pointed out some features of the substance of which are unclear to It is also unclear to me how most of what he points out constitutes sincerely i will defer to aristotle on I raise an opinion i cannot defend without much Isak Is there some problem with depicting a society in which an was hoped The protagonists are never mercenary in their Ruplinger reads like a bad Straussian And I really want to know what you mean by this the seeds of modern Fair I suppose I can really only call up individual novels as witnesses that I find DO measure up to great poetry and and that really an And I think are you talking is a perfectly reasonable way to engage a bad I that I am not very surprised that you are such a rabid fan of Jane Time to break out the ad hominem I thought you like people who insulted I see you are a Latin Would you allow your students to respond to one another during a discussion with any phrase along the lines of are you talking Or would you train them to ask more pointed questions that reveal they have made the attempt to process the statement they are Wait why is saying someone is a rabid Jane Austen fan an playing She was a woman doing a writing a feminism I I I honestly read Austen recently or attentively enough to make any overarching I suppose thinking playing dumb is better than thinking at It really intended as an just a comment on your You seem like a passionate person perhaps even like some Austen Marianne not meant as an I see comment as an maybe I am missing some history But I do think we can be more pointed in our and less vague in the I would like to know how Austen acoding the laying the seeds for Is it because of how it treats That was in the era of radical changes in marriage especially property and At least in English influenced I could easily see it as but again my memory needs refreshing on the actual content of her getting too worked up about I was reading your comments too much in conjunction with I are still talking about that is my most tenuous The society described lays the But what is Well THAT question should take us to He was talking smack Confusing With random stuff thrown The duty affection thing confuses me a thought Austen was proposing a combination of the two more than picking one or the or maybe i understand your There is obviously both duty and affection in Austen which is one among many reasons that comments never For example marriage to duty to her family is but there is obviously disinterested affection there as Well did work inspire any masterpieces like There is all you Only the greatest author could inspire such Leonard Nimoy The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins best quality a body gets a hankering that only See Translation Giant Colin Firth Terrorizes London People in London are currently learning the sobering lesson that Colin sex appeal as Pride  On the other Austen did inspire Pride and Prejudice and Zombies casts Downton Lily James and Sam Riley Jane Austen take a seat before reading Well done well do not criticize Jane do not criticize Jane maybe stick with one criticism instead of six and flesh it out a little or just do it in a way that makes some bloody sense or what Michael said Like She writes about boring crap the way Albrecht Durer paints Very everything in its But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a Or or whatever I will admit that Pride and Prejudice is better than the Faerie I still prefer my Vermeer But Vermeer paints people my Durer painted people And but the RABBITS I give Austen that much credit But Anthony is correct Pride and Prejudice is better than a lot of Faerie Queene of Dispair included I literally named my daughter after a character from the Faerie I liked Part I of the Faerie Queene my kids are all named after real The Faerie Queene was an exquisitely painful work to just too long and Part I is awesome I think I blocked most of that Just give me more Divine thank The seminar for that is like a black hole in my Joel named daughter after a character form the Divine Comedy I cannot for the life of me remember what we talked Michael is right and both the arguments and well reasoned position are bringing me to his Nina same our seminar WAS years ago so that might be part of my just admitting that makes me feel Megan you only say that because you there for my Paradiso seminar our tutor just closed up his book and stared at us for the last fifteen it was so he help you Was your tutor Only of us had finished the I   I can see him doing I had the freshman section from We had ALL the strong personalities and with Seeley as our philosopher we got into constant battles that sent Seeley into I stole shoe in junior philosophy class back TNET I got so angry at Sean Collins in sophomore theology so I said something mean about Augustine and he burst out And kept laughing the angrier I I remember Seeley wearing stuffed reindeer antlers for some KK I wept in the bathroom most of semester sophomore I think most of us most of us with that been enough testosterone on this time to pour tea and talk about the Then my shoulder was a nonstop bruise because I sat next to during sophomore I had a certain classmate who fell asleep on DANNY GRIMM a but why do people sit next to I get Katie if we must name I think I felt like I needed penance or shocked there were people who did I parked my ass next to freshman math tutor as soon as it became clear he would never call on me to do a prop  I volunteered for all of them I thought I had prop system all figured out and then he mixed it up on i think my freshman math tutor was the only one i ever sat next to as haha I only sat next to because I always hoped he would give me a I had him when the beard was short Remember the Tweety Bird WITH the plaid I wish I had had Kolbeck for another class besides Freshman I had him for and it was a dream he was great for Soph Theo You very I never had Kolbeck at Made me very Letteney for Latin was sounds epic I DID have Wiker for sophomore seminar and he was Had he stayed I would have asked him to be my I still think Wiker should be a founding member of the grad Though he might rather do something He was Every seminar I had with him except for the Faerie Queen was my cousin just posted on her Facebook teaching high freshmen are seemingly finding it impossible to grasp the fact that we can believe that God exists by anything other than Is it really that Has she introduced them to She should give them that Paul quote I think and have them discuss I think the best place to I think the was joking by posting this since it goes back to one of the original discussions on this infernal your memory lane should take us over in about minutes Rom I trying to do some more memory take TNET over the I can go away you Once Kolbeck almost walked out of my freshman philosophy you know that without magisterial no one could ever know that God exists tell Paul Paietta most certainly stormed out of our freshman Theology At LEAST Seeley just laughed at our philosophy Coughlin snarked in I would have paid to see him I had him for hours on Tuesdays freshman lab and then we were a half hour away from the end and you could hear crickets chirping and he was like stop Try having Hartmann for sophomore We nearly set the trailers on then me and Brian Hong did some fast talking and we ended up so close I feel sorry for those who never had Molly Those hours were One of my favorite moments was when Nieto mentioned casually that most females including humans were physically affected by the shocking a few girls in the They raced for the computer room to verify right after class hahaha wow ALL right Some of my favorite James Hanson and Fr JP Erickson making me the tester for all the including substance I I never had and several I wonder who I did Oh is he going to be asking for our advice or giving us You never had I had him well its like this  You got Now who woulda thunk it back at too we passed so my wife and i have a disagreement so proud I got the I just wish it was on something more profound than seems to be an ultimatum of They can only that God exists by faith Just to be Is about Now we should get to just But good on the pick I had Collins for senior lab amazing so did We were about pages behind We barely touched the actual math in It was delightful all I had Collins I spent two days demonstrating the math of the Lorenz transformations on the board to a class full of soon to be college half of whom do really Did anyone else have Shields for junior me sorry check lab Collins do a lot of math with us in senior I heard he changed his method shortly after our I kinda wish I as out of it Senior After working out all the proofs and stuff in Newton and Descartes various alternate proofs for things I thought I had kinda burnt out by the time I got to the math in Senior a It was elegant and beautiful I kinda followed along half But I could tell there was alot of amazing stuff going I loved Dedekind and some of the other readings in Senior So how exactly do you get into college without algebra i prefer Euclid for things they do Lobochevski in Senior but the Gauss in the same book is much more elegant Lobachevski was kinda cool because he uses a whole collection of different kinds of proofs His existence proof was particularly I spent most of the class trying to show people that it actually proved What do they do in Senior Lab Anyone I think changed it since I was When I was the highlights were Maxwell and Faraday on electromagnetism and Einstein Ferrier just taught it last year Rumor is they moved Darwin there and moved Einstein to math Which is kinda since Einstein has the most physicalist even a interpretation of heard that Ferrier indicated to me that he and MacArthur had been working on a proposal to that add genetics and QM and move Einstein to but I know when or if they implemented the rumor it be is they eliminated the electromagnetism At the Aristotelian conference two years Nieto was studying electromagnetism so he could teach it the upcoming But I think they should keep I see how you do relativity Take c as a postulate Say just Has anyone heard that Jacob Klein was an esoteric a la I know but in my experience Johnnies have strong Heideggerian especially when reading Is Heidegger an esoteric philosopher Maybe not And he forgot to include an exoteric  as one who studied what does that my intention was to indicate their apparent intellectual not to directly answer the Straussian For one they often seem to try to distance the understanding of Aristotle from Out of do John grads have the problems we have getting placed in I do know they have a similar reputation or for they have good taste Klein was a student of  But they tend to obfuscate the clear passages in Aristotle to match their readings of the more obscure I may be slightly biased by interactions with one particularly loud From what Johnnies have more variation amongst as itself has less of an official position and is more of a straight up great books Of does take a position by choosing what to read and all but less so than I I definitely have some sympathy for the Straussian But think Aquinas got the truth What Straussian Klein was helpful in my intellectual But Braun seems a big drop Johnnies are arrogant in their What Straussian position were you referring John  that i know if they are I know that the senior lab program was in flux when I was Collins put much more of an emphasis on Maxwell than the other sections I feel like I read Einstein without understanding to be that was true of quite a bit of the curriculum senior I had to scroll a FIVE to find where you mentioned I hate To the lot of things of this nature are best suited for or whiskey That is i need to spend more time on I find the greats very Straussians not so by that i mean only in their My good friend and mentor is trying to refute their latest and having He is much brighter than And no one else is I Tom things of this nature are totally suited to And I think the addition of whiskey consumption to this thread would result in a very noticeable More Isak Benedict regularly consumed adult beverages while posting to this so any difference it could make it has already That was certainly one of my intended there can never be too many of partly why I hope Jeffrey Bond would meet They have both grappled with the Straussians and have similar Both love Plato to be confused with Most of the graduates encountered have been absolutely If a reputation for arrogance there I still say not a fair the real If College graduates are called why are Thomas Aquinas College graduates not called Much more fun than the common and awkward We could be the I only know one Johnny personally and he is a great But the conditions are Another like school exudes arrogant  do you mean the school Its Its Surely not its Langley from  I want to be called a It sounds kinda Like Tommy They are sceptics and there are few so arrogant as Ironic not sure I understand the Klein was friends with Strauss but they were not in They were both students of There is a rumor floating about that Klein too was an I see That is I read much of Eva Brann on the other hand appears very Do you mean Eva I doubt hired  no She was the head at for a long Eva Brann the free encyclopedia Eva Brann is a former dean and the tutor at and a recipient of the National Humanities her early years at she was very close to Jacob After Klein Brann increasingly assumed his role as the defining figure of the and the continuing dialogue with the Great Books represented by the  I just drink and look in from time to And I Someone post some links to some good Eva Brann Of the many cheap beers on offer at only Simpler Times is truly Oh Matthew I remember when some friends of mine tried to get into Simple Times because it was so cheap at Trader We all found it rather well make great debating Eva Author at The Imaginative Conservative Not that I need sparring All I have to do is post a pic of a beer and I get But this this is the price of TNETdom The flak attack from the Tommy TNET has become my entire Facebook being A long time in a galaxy far away I used to favor Lucky Lager as my cheap swill of When in I generally go for I did have a little silver patron not that all that but just a pinch of courage for the pounded more Best than you could possibly I mind shiner or yuengling as cheap swill Simpler Times is better than other cheap and has a stronger alcohol depending whether one is speaking of Sipler Times Lager or is okay when the other slips behind PBR Some of their beers are not bad at Beast Lots of Oy If there was also a malt liquor period of my young To be honest I used to buy it as beer I would let others good cheapo Trader Joes Trader Dark was actually good In San you must check out Blue Perhaps the best brew ever and I WAS a brewmeister I think drunk two Bud Lights but I generally forgo cheap Pater Edmund needs to shrive us of our And just drink it less frequently I once drank Tecates in one night once should come over and have some of this stout I brewed I think I had Blue Star and liked it how long has it been In high school I drank of Colt and passed out behind the Rustic Canyon Community I once went to confession immediately after going to a beer it shriven if you are still inebriated while confessing it that a bit Joshua now getting Tecate is or used to be one of those youthful beverages that when the moon is right you can brewing my most famous beer lead to wedding bands Okay a shot of a shot of a shot of and a shot of somethin I know not my brother passed out at that and I went to was funny were the mad libs we had tried doing while I once put money on the Kentucky Derby and then popped into a confessional on Lexington Ave to ask if it was a sin to bet on the I believe the A told me he True so Now I need a unless spending money that you had a duty to spend on A Joey brewed a double bock that was My son appreciates that last drop in the empty IPA Once after a few adult beverages under the my companions forsook going down unto the pit on account of gang bangers hanging out I went They were drinking cheap beer and tequila from a central sacred We communed and I Some girl asked me my afraid forget Some dude showed me scars from where he took Solidarity all They all signed the bottle with gang I went back to campus and my mind fell apart like a year old who has been up hours past bedtime via candy and No TACer remained with as I There are time when young when you just have more juice than the booze and can outrun The human body is There we nothing like I a good dram of Lagavulin is up you refer to alcohol I think drinking JD and other cheap whiskies is the most amazing thing I I finishing a And then walking around campus and eating cereal while talking to people about great Lord save Lagavulin is a You guys had Mhm Absynthe aint what it used to Ya know But not in a Best conversation are whilst I remember giving a talk at the and the enjoying Absynthe afterwards with great conversing drink Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl Song An gem from the Trevilla In the wormwood content is the Just no leaded glas anymore Joshua Kenz had some great absynthe but not enough over time to figure out the Feels like a summery drink to me but enjoyed No No To be I would prefer but I am poor and I have this at hand it and forgot about it a while You need a few glasses to feel it out My go to single malt is Laphroaig Mostly because reasonably priced for such I get a decent something by Johnny or Black Bottle One of my fav drinking we left TAC to go boating boating on Lake And bricks of cheap Illegal Good We pulled in to the station to refill our We were in our early We shone like the Empties were all We were wet from No life Man on the Breaking every So they pull us And a dear Who shall not be Driving the boat the because it held a lot of water in that and you hold crap He was asked how many His trying to low lowball but remain realistic re the To the police on the or How are we all still And in how many ways is this Thread going to destroy what little chance I had of tenure The boat police let us Another amazing single malt is any bottle put out by noticeably but not quite amazingly well Only problem you find a bottle for Need to try straussians are crypto I should maneuver myself to become the expert on the philosophy of Publications are sure a position in that field Perhaps University of Best translations of the Politics always liked Carnes but because of what Aristotle says at the end of book of the I think of a second translation of but I like translation of the Lord is so say the Straussians exoterically of But what they really SB actually that would have been in Greek if it were SB Carnes Lord and Benejamin Jowetts in Barnes Completes works of are the only two I have you count i have Loeb and Jowetts is terrible without the He even skips I so I have relied on I only used the Barnes because I had it was where better than and sometimes you need a more though less accurate as a primer reading one of the hyperliteral translations passed around at TAC Barnes himself is annoying as The Loeb translators are meant to be an aid as I They are poor My favorite Greek translators are Dryden et and the Homer They are great unless you know better in which case let me I would say it also depends on the I can only speak to the Aristotle translations from the The Physics translation is The Posterior translation is rather I like translation of the New Testament use it in theological argument though Grene and Lattimore have mastery of English and They are literal and try to keep the flavor and poetry as Very his NT is outstanding Joshua why you use it in Herodotus is just far better than anyone People are dismissive of it no for protestants I have encountered is treating it as People have complained to me of the difficulty of finding the verses I generally find people unfamiliar with and hence less willing to trust it those are all bullshit reasons except maybe the first for Catholics his NT is so much better than most of what Protestants I can tell you that Better than what most of what Catholic use never had a problem with TAC I have had one One prof always gives me grief if I say The proper solution to that is to return the  Especially the other than the longer ending of of the changes are Daniel if he can confirm that when doing Aquinas on the Pauline Epistles even the DR was more faithful to the Greek the despite being a of a Though I would note the is worse than the protestant in that it was based on an earlier version of the RSV that was a looser The later version tightened up standard a but coyright not actually concern over affected the editorial decision of those that made the most overrated translation in Catholic how I annoyed my tutor at TAC by refusing to use it I had along with the DR at every I sort of wish I was much better at Greek alone The consensus nowadays is that only a group a committee can make a scholarly But I think that is makes a conflicted and often driven A unified voice can be worth So I would love to translate the bible as I am not nearly competent enough in the Greek to even attempt the Of course I am sure we all think we can do better than the other The St Jerome one man method is given short New Jerusalem by I like accountability not even a rough translation just to start I would be suprised if the DR didnt at least consult the Greek I took a reading class on the Gospel of John about five years Some of the easiest Greek the DR is a shockingly accurate I say of because it is a translation of a I totally agree that committee translations are a bad Robert translations of parts of the OT are awesomely I hope he translates the rest of it Ideal English OT NT format something like Welcome Bibliotheca is an alternative to our customary and is meant solely to reestablish the powerful literary thrust I cannot believe a TAC alumnus is complaining about When I was there TACers would drink such poisonously cheap stuff that not two could drink today and Where is the skunked The Steel And such liquors as have no name and are bought in plastic jugs at Early Good enough for Walker good enough for drinking on a rocky dirt Of I mostly just whisked the elect off to my beach house where Grama would foot the bill for Tanqueray and craft For the Politics thinking triangulating between Lord and Sachs is probably ideal but there are a few out there I even Nothing like steeling as a friend used to Vons Charcoal filtered said kind of bummed I had to sleep through the Scotch I had much to as they TNET waits for no man did you ever suffer through the Tijuana surprised we all have cancer Or still sad my tired body made me miss my chance to talk Anna Karenina with Katie man as in not touchy Why do Catholic liberal arts people talk so much about scotch and Russian tragic Too much math I was You are the one who is I am saddened by the recent deterioration of our What started with such a promising mutual admission of jerkishness has become mutual mistrust and I just for you I was going to speak in gender inclusive language ALL above comment was a or by desires to Please Everyone hates me enough name him or her that hates you I always talk tragic Russian while thinking to myself I should have stuck with the math Just Everyone is He or she has probably just had too much you can say that you think right about got about five settle And we have all had too much trying to find that But if I remember HAHA never find it ever hit previous a Lewisian rabbit hole never find the end of I said that Stiva is and Dolly is solely responsible for everything good in their marriage and basically I thought fixing my footnotes was More or also the one who can be happy with the am thinking her conversation with Anna most I found Dolly more interesting the last time I read AK time since becoming a five minutes are see One chartreuse in my not Is there such a thing as too much like What does much Or is it just a way to say you have too much of a study of avoiding those Speaking of math this keeps showing up in my it was to distinguish from too much math as in have twenty pages of partial differential equations to too Is it possible to know and study too much for most there is no math more difficult than adding suppose occasional if one were to bother figuring out sales So if going to study outside of learning how to can there be too I think it requires Especially in youth who are excellent at It can lead them to think that is the only real truth because it is easier to gras or it Poincare who said pure mathematician studies mathematics not because it is but because he delights in and he delights in it because it is mathematics is the most knowable science in and of So if we are to be it is probably best that we start by knowing the most I told my algebra students in the way back when I taught that disliking algebra was a sign of good If it is probably a problem with how it is Mathematics is a good counter to skepticism become But seriously the young mathmetician should be kept away until he is better After it is It reminds me of my struggles trying to balance a curriculum where most of the board members were when my cousin was getting a degree in Biology I used to tease him Biology is applied chemistry is applied and physics is applied So studying applied applied applied Skip the middle BUT That is the Algebra is not taught it is an absolute The I book I had started off with are collections of some of these things are called how about we start with the knowable I showed some students how the quadratic formula is just a generalization from the minds They were truly surprised that it came from somewhere I dont say no Just not Most students shouldnt do calculus in ESPECIALLY the way it is hah I had years in high school year was independent you are an I said AND IT IS TERRIBLY worse taught than most It generally boils down to memorization for most and no notion of the organic development of mathematical If I was more like actually try to do something about But I just work with my If you dont know the derivation of the what is the What you I know a principal that introduces Euclid well and with interest in BUT setting aside how badly it is it is an There are others that take more There are more than liberal are thank you one could claim logic I think there may be an argument i have a problem with people like You are proving my They think everything is It all becomes numbers which leads to one inevitable conclusion as Walker Percy might THE GAS you non mathemeticians yes yes to the gas chambers logic is not you It is precisely YOU people that have ruined the world You you NAZIS GODWINS LAW but does it count If you were intentionally trying to allude to law in it what do I have to do to get called a I do you have Help me out here But I am in Austria and that is highly I learned least forgot all of it before I went to had to learn it all over again from scratch forgot it again and it will have to study it from practically zero if I ever decide to take the Some people just have a greater aptitude for mathematical My aunt was the same That mean we but some things just make more sense to other an fair Freshman year at TAC Zedlick said my roommate had a nice German He told her it was She said NOT the same At More or tell that to a I suppose Was she just trying to annex Austria with one hahahaha but to the point of I think it is a grave defect in the That could or the in the case of most high schools or sooo much blame to throw around I am Prussian and But watched some people struggle FAR less with the same Perhaps it was their previous But the Austrians ruled Germany for many But not at the same time and in the same And some people are just smarter than others  But some people are smarter than others until that whole defenestration Some people and often not the same people who and vice I suppose meter has nothing to do with poetry There were only a VERY few at TAC when I was there who were truly excellent in both   full circle math sure repeating comments and but a requirement of Who defenestrated only ever had students who get algebra in They were well the world needs ditch TNET has no TNET requires the protestants in Prague threw some Catholics out a   I suppose this is a bad time to stump for my new political as in a Defenestration more physics and physiology than  ask Everyone can get poetry That also is mistaught And mixing in complete excrement doesnt help one get But i do agree with CR Defenestration We would like to throw politicians out windows  Poetry is rarely read out and a but most kids are not trained to read out and are very very very bad at I When I taught I could tell which students had parents who read to them Their writing ability reflected their ability to hear correct and beautiful words and inability as the case may have reading aloud is important in my is constantly having to tell children to SLOW DOWN reading to someone not to yourself Speaking of I found this to be a somewhat curious but helpful book for teaching such Writing Metrical Contemporary Lessons for Mastering Traditional Forms Write poetry in the great metrical tradition of sure this was discussed before but I think meter is actually necessary for just emphasis on A Modern This is a poem because I hit the enter key at Too much And you just used conventional capitalization and a mOderN thiS Is a poeM hit the lAngley The inversion at the end is to fancy and well Correceted although the word order in the last line does sound too what I Maybe I should change my last line as to In I think I Someone could probably write a whole essay on the power structures enforced by the conventional use of a period to end e e cummings what a stupid July Poetry Magazine Read the latest issue of Poetry the oldest monthly devoted to verse in the English speaking He defies I think it depends on what you mean by I think a poem should have a definite rhythmic but poets like Hopkins and Eliot often manage to pull that off without using the traditional grecoroman metrical Latvian but really A My great Uncle was a Did you really just call Cummings what I think you Hopkins developed this thing called sprung The rhythm gets a little bit then spring I knew you were a little premature that Do you really think modern poetry is just hitting the enter key at It was a modern I think Eliot kind of deconstructed He was trying to ride the tude of so as to maintain some remnant of Seems to me he but it needs to be Not all of But much of claim is that the natural rhythm of the English And I think it can be traced back to Beowulf and I almost think modern poetry is not worth Compare Seamus translation of Beowulf to translation of the Yeats is the one great modern poet in English he but did he not digress into occult personally and Yeats is to be  and depends on what you mean by So his subject did not transport to God or the moral Hopkins had a metrical whatever one thinks of sprung that Scott This is about to get really good what follow that poetry rise to God or moral heights never been able to get into Yeats subject is the journey of modern man back to some sort of unity of and God most definitely makes an appearance  to post We can disagree on But he was quite Tolkien wrote a seminal essay on criticism titled the Monsters and the in which he asserted that the philosophers of language had taken form out of stories by examing too closely the minutiae of words and as if those words and letters were blocks which were once part of a tower from which you could view the but they recognized them only as and not part of this I think the same thing has happened to and there are other I sigh that kiss For I must own That I shall miss you When you have What other And So spring rhythem evidently morphed into free and the silvery polish of Seamus Heaney and the and Virgil and the I were not strict formalists for one a notion of poetry which so valorizes that that it is concerned to have the poem the act of poiesis leaves aside final poetic form as a sort of this produces all kinds of things from Symbolism to  And that Yeats was Def Yeats as a master craftsman and it was all about the form of the made thing for him Irish learn your and all learn your sing whatever IS WELL scorn the sort now growing out of shape from toe to top The form of some of the ancient Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is The where the thoughts come in it is kind of a free definitely poetry and not and is compelling emotionally and try to find an and Edward what can I do to help you get into Yeats Of the really great mathemeticians are nothing but a bunch of lazy but much smarter than the average not perhaps I read the right perhaps the great poets were just lazy Lazy and who traded rigor for Edward how about An Irish Airman foresees his The Wild Swans at Coole random entry some And I like Is it modern or a do you who had to find out easy things the hard btw this are lazy is A computer can do higher it cannot write a real poem who had to take that road less is that a Thank Edward waiting for news of your conversion one swallow doth not a summer make I expected So Meditations in Time of Civil War The works by Yeats are in the public This electronic text is available with prior consent of the CELT programme for purposes of private or academic research and computer can do higher much as Siri can read a Siri can read it one Give her some If a poet and a mathematician were stranded on the floor of the Grand the mathemetician would build a rocket to propel himself out in a The poet instead will grab his and his and begin the slow trek winding to and up the chiseled drawing his sights upward from the marred and craggy toward the beauty of the distant view that God has pulled In the he will meet up with the and they will have risen the same number of their end point each being the same distance from their Mathematicals are the least rich of beings of as opposed to the figures of poetic which are the I just did a couple of those the fact that of voters thought that the obvious poems were written by humans says JA Escalante is a Is that something that can be prescribed to a mathematical That the Turing test has also been subject to rampant grade But if you ask the computer who wrote the computer they get it right every What is a Makes me think that e e cummings was really a A mathematical is an ens a thing of A thing that exists in matter and motion but is considered as separated from matter and I still do not get Like something you can Are mathematicals the things which are measured by a physical rectangle is a shape in the a mathematical rectangle is that shape as considered without its sensible Daniel as my surname is I will say this from my limited know Austrians from Germans by the better food and that they are midway between being laid back and uptight workaholics north of virtue is in the without any of the imperfection that comes from its real so a poem is a mathematical of things not measured by There is a joke about It is said that they posses the efficiency of the Austrians and the culture of the But math is measuring the same but just in a different that BMW is in Bavaria and a huge economic at least the first part of that joke seems I find the way to annoy a German or an Austrian is to claim that Mozart was either an Austrian or a German least it works on my wife of the is Though unlike Austria has a glorious Far in the dis on the I take the fact that this thread has never seriously discussed music as a sign that we all agree that Mozart was the greatest composer bullshit is metagism  all you guy drank crap at James Layne and I drink swill as We made with as a bare minimum though was my and debated Gran Marnier versus Contreau Beer was not commonly drunk outside what the school gave but Newcastle and Sierra Nevada were the standby We bough nice Bourbons everything from Knob Creek and Makers Mark to Bookers I only went to drinking swill as a poor grad convertible So a poem is like a mathematical for a different kind of  I meant metagism is bullshit Bavaria was still very Catholic when I was including a higher than Ireland Mass attendance rate considering Ireland is an apostate country not see the Prussian culture at you seem stuck on trying to equate poetry as some sort of different form of but not really sure Cazadores and gran marnier Mathematicians talking poetry is like poets talking a poem analogous to a a poetic figure would be it is A poem is a poetic   I prefer Laphroige quarter cask to Lagevilin I am not trying to make poetry into a different form of I am just trying to see how they are or where they intersect in terms of matter and there was a time when I could afford to Edward has the Holy Ghost changed your heart yet but Scotus has been hardening that ardbeg uigeadail and it also helps to be John friend as he has been trying every kind of scotch from every distillery in got to do  After Scott Euclid alone has looked on beauty we tried that the year after I had a month hangover I think I want to know what hardening a hart sounds cruel at Including scotch made after the blend that Shackleton personally crafted for his Edna alone has looked on Euclid bare Maybe it has to do with A poetic figure is analgogous to a Some poems are poetic figures in their an entire is all I I used to have perfect Then I went to graduate too many analytic philosophers Catholic as a are overrun by continental  Greek and German destroyed my I think he said hee I am I taught high school for four unlike many senior actually read Freud Ralph McInerny makes a joke in his autobiography that Catholic philosophers decided to move from the Thomist ghetto to the phenomenologist and thus grasp the origins of analytic he puts it more wittily than I Math is for people who do have not enough poetry is for those who have too  as an art is obviously superior to as it encompasses a greater Math is for people who love Scott is actually right about the modern academy at least Poetry is for people who love to talk about And philosophy is for those whose faith is just Think of Dawkins on the one and Derrida on the and you will see the truth of what Scott said Poets seek to explain nature in supernatural Poets are those who are able to give beauty its breath so that it may enter into the hearts of Philosophers realize that one ought to use the correct level of Mathematicians seek to explain God with Only poor poets would explain nature in supernatural a poet ought to explain the supernatural through natural terms or equations I think if a poet could explain Creation has God sees he would be very I apologize for the dogmatic character of my I do not see anything natural about a Metaphor turns nature on its of Dawkins on the one and Derrida on the and you will see the truth of what Scott Escalante Neither of those guys is a mathematician or a that what they are known I think you are on to if metaphor is Joshua Math is a Poetry is a colleague Alfréd Rényi mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into and Erdős drank copious quotation is often attributed incorrectly to but Erdős himself ascribed it to After he also took despite the concern of his one of whom bet him that he could not stop taking the drug for a Erdős won the but complained that during his mathematics had been set back by a when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with Now all I see is a blank piece of After he won the he promptly resumed his amphetamine Poincare is a Sounds poetical to But this is a stupid Metaphors are in their imitation of the had his own idiosyncratic Although an agnostic he spoke of a visualization of a book in which God had written down the best and most elegant proofs for mathematical Lecturing in he have to believe in but you should believe in The He himself doubted the existence of whom he called the He accused SF of hiding his socks and Hungarian and of keeping the most elegant mathematical proofs to When he saw a particularly beautiful mathematical proof he would from The This later inspired a book entitled Proofs from THE I do you have an equation that proves that or is it just a hunch But slightly crazy poetry is but it is still If poetry is a then the poet is very bold when guessing that Beatrice is a Only a fool ignores the math Only the poets ignore a Or perhaps you meant ahead heave ho and then that expression makes me want to punch people The poet finds the wisdom in the and the folly in the wise infima doctrina a short cut to metaphysics Joel yes mathematics is a but is all of what we call mathematical a I threw in both as a weasel phrase to avoid and because it seems to me math can also be treated as an poetry is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the of the math yields little may not play dice with the but something strange is going on with the prime is something the Russians invented to destroy American Hey diddle the cat and the  are numbers like asking why is Ninth Symphony If you see someone tell I know numbers are If they nothing Everything that has But some things are more beautiful than And people who have done Euclid should know how beautiful a nice proof JA Escalante is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the of the math yields I know and Euclid is And there was that one time I saw a whole proof in Apollonius in the diagram at a single   I thought him rather Apollonius was a real  And then projective geometry man We might get the longest thread record Euclid is but is certainly not the Beatrice that is Edward Langley ala famous proof of the Pythagorean the thread would have to grow almost times it current size to do shall sea never changes and its for all the talk of are wrapped in by Joseph Conrad but the Math does not convey the It conveys something the beauty just comes along with like a woman riding a wrong the math conveys something that must be Not something that must be Have you ever really done Have you ever really done the proof itself ask Catherine Ryland I have done does that Just that was real bad Joshua is the danger The proof is not Math helps us see that we know it as Look splitting the transcendentals What is this Geometry may have some beauty in it some beauty and truth but not going all Scotus on us The little way to I think from But I think the intention concerns its logical not its The content of math is The content of poetry is The content of rhetoric is The form of all three is the Their form being the they can all lead to truth and goodness in Math is the propaedeutic to It is also the science best proportioned to our But poetry is great as though I understand claims that poeticals are richest beings of But you see math as because you are beautiful not because of the now saying that poetry beautiful but leads to beauty please watch your Poetry may be the highest and thus be greater than Math insofar as Math is certainly not the highest what do you say I was saying  but the Math does not convey the It conveys something the beauty just comes along with like a woman riding a But the praise of poetry at the expense of math is usually a compensation tell it to you Cartesian I think you are About posts ago I post a division of among discursive reason I divided it into that producing conclusions that producing probable conclusions and that producing error The is divided into producing that producing suspicion and the producing and that last was ascribed to the as it inclines us to one side ofa contradiction through the appeal of It is the in that the Topics produces the mind is totally declined to one and the Rhetoric the mind is partially but the Poetics only for lack of a better an attraction to one I think human imagination can be said to be just as the human will can said to be just as the human intellect can be said to be Math conveys the rhetoric the poetry the Poetry is a The poet informs the form of his art with The poet is both informed by formal unity in the and informs the world with beauty in his poetical observation of the world and things in He then informs the poem with this In one the poem possess But it is a beauty to transmit and inform the It is a short cut to metaphysical in a similar a math equation can be the briefest possible description of a geometrical But what do I I am really a fool at and never happening are you saying poetry is a kind of discursive Joshua your I think it is probably right to say that Poetry is much higher considered as an and mathematics can also be considered an art as well One may argue that its utility is the greatest in that it appeals to the greatest number of men Poetry in general seems to have sprung from two each of them lying deep in our the instinct of imitation is implanted in man from one difference between him and other animals being that he is the most imitative of living and through imitation learns his earliest and no less universal is the pleasure felt in things We have evidence of this in the facts of Objects which in themselves we view with we delight to contemplate when reproduced with minute such as the forms of the most ignoble animals and of dead The cause of this again that to learn gives the liveliest not only to philosophers but to men in whose of learning is more Josh is quoting Aquinas in saying in one of his proemiums to Yes Not but it does lead the mind to new Pelican of Lord and Cleanse wretched in Thy Precious Blood where one drop for outpoured Might from all transgression have the world It is not the point of poetry to produce Not conclusions of but conclusions of I think the claim is that poetry has a certain relation to logic insofar as it can often lead people to a conclusion through its proper But this to say that properly a part of See STA commentary on the Posterior FOREWORD OF THOMAS AQUINAS Thomas Posteriora English αἵ τε γὰρ μαθηματικαὶ τῶν ἐπιστημῶν διὰ τούτου τοῦ τρόπου παραγίνονται καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἑκάστη Is poetry a counterpart of like rhetoric is a counterpart of Sure it not again in the manner of a but through and in after appeals to the mind in a way the good appeals to the it attracts Beauty has that ratio of truth blended with the ratio of Or are we not supposed to contemplate anything in Thanks Joel At belief or opinion is not altogether but suspicion because reason does not lean to one side of a contradiction although it is inclined more to one side than to the To this the Rhetoric is At other times a mere fancy inclines one to one side of a contradiction because of some much as a man turns in disgust from certain food if it is described to him in terms of something And to this is ordained the For the task is to lead us to something virtuous by some excellent And all these pertain to the philosophy of the for it belongs to reason to pass from one thing to Is the conclusion of the poetic method that it informs the soul in a related by different way than Seems pretty reductive to equate contemplating beauty with producing I wonder if also it is because poetry can be used to move the mind to a certain that may not be the only even the thing poetry Beauty is worthwhile for its own after and not merely as a sort of rate rhetoric and rate not saying it aid in producing As long as not judging poetry relative to other disciplines based on its ability to convince the mind of then what Joel Maybe I am using conclusion more broadly am not thinking of it as the end of a but as that to which the mind is a certain sense does not all art attempt to lead the mind in some I think the burden of proof is on anyone who claims that math In beauty may refer to the clearest sort of of what truly when mind and heart are ordered rightly in relation to being via this but not for the purpose of producing At not and I not and the only reason you snobs pick Apollonius over Euclid is because we have only the basics of Brian Dragoo has a thesis for what ails yah arguing that math is I think why poetry for a similar is not properly part of Anyone ever heard of an No no no no no we only talk about the brute force of the proof bludgeoning us with logic On a related I think a lot of the funky mysticism about beauty happens because people lose sight of the first sense of a certain consonance between something seen or heard and the sense power that produces that the most noble sense of the but the characteristics of that sensible account govern the use of the take a simple like Euclid In order to cut the line in the golden he first constructs it on the and makes the beautiful spiral in the it rears its ugly mean beautiful by head again in inscribing the when From in we learn that something is beautiful when it is well proportioned to our both absolutely and taking into account our particular proofs in Book III of the a simple drawing of Utah is the basis of the golden the and finally the most complex of the platonic Where again is the lack of beauty in In the former there is an objective order between beautiful things Mozart happens to be at the top in the more true to say that is in the eye of the  no You have denied a this incurs a lol Mozart is only beautiful because of Quoth I thought proof on the equilateral tringle led to beauty and The perfectness of the form of the triangle is Maybe you cannot say but maybe you I do not Maybe the form is not Just but Gustin thought Beethoven was the Does anyone know what a semiduplex rite is Not Nerdiest request nature and The word is derived from the and some writers hold that the word indicates feasts which are of lower rank and solemnity than double Others hold that it means feasts holding a place between double feasts and simple Most writers on liturgy hold that on some days a double of the feast and one of the and that in order to shorten this double recitation there was said a composite partly of the office and partly of the and they say that from this practice arose the term or Synonyms for the term are of nine The antiphons are not doubled in a The Sundays of the excepting Easter Low Pentecost and are said according to the In the new Breviaries the Psalms for Matins are only nine in instead of the eighteen of the older The preces and suffrages of which are recited in are given below under their own Bach is the only serious contender for the But I think overly Thank Quoted from I know the authority of the but it seems to be a relatively kinda Too much Bach lacked make much use the Sonata whereas it reached its peak and the Sonata form gave the greatest unity and largest scope to a composition so saith my memory of That sounds sort of familiar Beethoven is overly Mozart is the golden  I also suspect she rather liked the masculinity of Beethoven as compared to But my private Bach is too mathy so great about I think she was prejudiced against church Sonata is actually a church way a classical minuet was a dance what part of the Edward Langley sed the mean is Nigel And I just simple lines you very much like really influenced by Mozart and and sort of in between like a Mach this is the problem with music criticism criticism of the arts in at One is not trained in it training which demands many years of service in the temple of so one just falls back on own likes and and if one is a tutor if there is a group of tutors who have the same this gets elevated into but not dogma at I think Richard Delahide Ferrier will back me up not exactly But I had a violin teacher point out to me that the difference between a and a referring to partitas and sonatas for unaccompanied was that the former was stylized dance music while the latter was stylized church Was Joshua above suggesting that poetry is that art by which women can be brought to a different Or did i miss Per wiki there were forms of sonata originally I was just the works of Arcangelo Corelli and his two broad classes of sonata were and were first described by Sébastien de Brossard in his Dictionaire de musique the sonata da chiesa suitable for use in which was the type known as and the sonata da camera for use at which consists of a prelude followed by a succession of all in the same And the Church Sonata gives rise to the modern Sonata I recall why Gustin thought the Sonata form was the so She probably had and it sounds like something that would be a truism at Daniel Lendman do you recall arguments for why Sonatas are so Hey if you really want to start something you should defend that claim you made about Austen and I no longer respond to anything less than dragon level Daniel some of us have been listening classical music since before we were I am one of those at least since I was the rule should No criticism until read and at least pages of To be serious for a perhaps some develop more slowly than For I had certain definite tastes by the time I was but I feel I really begin to engage in criticism or or until I was about or But perhaps I was being Criticism is like one can know the maxims as a very young but it takes decades until one has learned how to apply That may be for some sense of but the vice of music criticism is overemphasizing Gustin also once hummed Enter I think I find the favoring Beethoven over Mozart more surprising though Pretty sure TNET broke facebook there for a few minutes You had same a A cat Inanimate Stock C R A S H The cat cares He has his money In silver and too much Everyone is a site that tests it down for me or it said FB was down for everyone Probably the revelation that Gustin hummed rip in the space time fabric there good theory I remember Bailey Fator singing Weezer for I can contemplate beauty without But I can do neither without were sitting with her and the claim was made that a sign of the depravity of such music was that it was not we got Louis who had been tortured with Metallica by James Layne to regurgitate and Gustin repeated it back just That was a twofer really Saying Cat is a is like saying is a mathematical James Layne waterboarded Bolin with IIRC Louis had said something derogatory about rock and his example was the we told him that real rock so James had a CD of Metallica and we played it in my did not look all that We subjected him to it again during the He had his own next to and was playing some track over and think it was I wanted to go to bed and I knocked on his door asking him to zip He I had speakers and a subwolfer and James had the We checked with our neighbors to see if they were fine with a music came over saying he but maybe the others would be and I could they are cool with cam over a little later and he had moved to the other side of his room with his little laptop speakers put close to his vibrating from the was Poor mathematicians butcher and The really excellent ones treasure Black Sabbath What is there TO discuss once heard War Iron Black Metallica I do like having like James Hetfield at Joel it had something to do with And some prog rock like should be fined for outrageous such melting the anger to Mozart by the But it is certainly okay to listen to  take it you this is what like to get away is the Mozart was a therefore He also had a very dirty dirty Palestrina is the thank  How can you even say One can say at a given time in European in Western Mozart was the most accomplished But imagine trying to compare him to Leonin and Berg and Aaron The sentence does not Or it is Say is my favorite Molly Gustin gave me some good tools for objectively evaluating That being the I admit that there is a range of composers that one might consider I find that the more people the more they will come to agree with it is a good dialectical argument for why those tools are not look at Greek music at the time of Plato tools would not even know where to The mode of classical western music is not even a mode Plato would admit having listened to the entirety of maybe I have to Especially in the revised Though old nubering may be superior That latter is mir den Arsch fein recht schön Mozart definitely the best at reaching such lofty In all he is a bit Bach Mozart  Try forming sentences more like these is truly my opinion I believe Zauberflöte is the opera that I love I imagine a better traviata is a close in my followed by Les contes I will Le Nozze di Figaro is clearly the greatest opera ever Although I understand why someone might thing Don Giovanni I Now Within Die Zauberflöte is clearly the greatest of his a just as Twelfth Night is best okay I am with But then I am also partial to Clearly my argument was not convincing be a A little ass licking on occasion is my  Can anyone today talk to about poetry and who has the same kind of artistic force as Mozart or I think culturally the whole thing has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt and cannot be grafted onto a contemporary By rare chance I once asked Gunter Joseph Brodsky and Seamus Heaney about and they all sounded vague and Brodsky described his own as though argued the publishing industry is Grass was clearly a but his books are incredibly On the other if you view old tapes of Tolkien or they are the They are If you look at heavy metal or contemporary you see depravity and sometimes the If there is a poet or musician today of the same cloth as Mozart or or or or Jane I think they would be very They would not be riding the wave in I have the complete works of both Mozart and is Operas are another which Bach is not compared Mozart has the greater number of Operas in the top but Carmen is better than all of I am not sure what to know you went for that sort of you also like totally see everything you did I disagree that there the talent now that existed in There are many brilliant modern to judge them by the same standard is like judging a Mozart piano sonata to a Chopin They the same kind of music I like I also like Can I get an amen for depends on whether it is made from perfectly normal beasts Saying there are or today is artistic Why can no one recognize Chopin or Tolstoy or even Jane Austin or even Flannery Modernism has laid waste to it laid waste to it sounds like a IMHO It also sounds bitter and But it has laid waste to it This is what The Wasteland was that saw it For the same TAC cannot restore modern It can only start something restore is a stupid onward and upward Greatest greatest West Side Story onward and upward but we cannot bring life back to the we must move onward and upward Is that a I thought it was a musical Same thing greatest Happy Days are you suggesting we go where no man has gone to the Name a better use for the diminished I thought space Scott live long and prosper where you are planted but I thought we were going prosperity is phototropic no it is There may be some in but it is closer to a but even then ballet is a distinct Musicals are something Musicals are dross But is there a better use for the diminished fifth Sounds like Adrw seen enough of them Thanks but no Married to a theater major who thinks the Opera all the way pronounced when a TAC a TAC all the way from your first euclid prop to your last dying Dante Sonata by Liszt the diminished fifth I hate My Fair best century pop musical never seen it Your Musicals are opera meets My Fair Lady the English Learn to First meet between Higgins and with English subs I believe I just wasted minutes of my It gets better Just You Wait Audrey Hepburn own voice My Fair Lady Audrey sang most of this song herself in the I cant believe MB just said he cant believe he wasted six minutes of his on GAH I LIGHT MY STUPID GRILL great now I have to put my stupid pork skewers in the stupid oven can you make a sandwich out of TNET is my newfeed That is why get this status psychopathic hallucinating cockney girl with the most annoying I think Joshua you owe me minutes of my life back I owe you I merely filled a gap in your cultural knowlege  This comment is Now listening to Schoenberg to wash the cockney out of my ears It made my physically ill when I first heard him It does the trick for washing cockney out of the Verklärte Arnold Schoenberg Verklärte Nacht Night La Nuit and to I love how proponents of Bach Mozart even feel the need to put forth an argument As if the opus speaks for Awright Whatever yew Sorted Bach is too Plus if Douglas Hofstadter thought he was the not a ringing endorsement it does speak for you and Hofstadter luv a unlike yew I do not da compulsion ter play videos I can stop when I dislike Know what I the WTF button Napoleon Dynamite I understand a word you just said Bach is too Fugue is too mathy I have poor impulse control I thought you were all about the give it exoteric doctrine is that Mozart is I prefer this for purging Pelot Tri Yann Musique traditionnelle bretonne Ma chère maman je vous écris Que nous sommes entrés dans Paris Que why not like a strange French accented speaker over Gaelic It is Celtic I know I can But most of my Celtic music experience is The My daughter is at Irish dance class right now is my which is why killing so much time on So sometimes forced to listen to the reel ad nauseum so she can ugh But the French sounds way off Best modern icejjfish IceJJFish On The Floor Music BUY NEW ICEJJFISH AVAILABLE NOW holy crap Have I mentioned that Patrick is one of my favorite English hahahaha I tell that to my inlaws every year I leave the possibility open that he could be I expected no less from Adrw Lng Did somebody say something intelligent about about comments If then how bout a Norwegian Lena says to Lars our anniversary I want you to take me somewhere expensive so Lars says to Lena hop in taking you to the gas get rising fuel West Side Story Cool HD RIFF crazy Get Got a rocket in your Keep coolly get This is my dance Kristopher Choreography Project Premiere Kristopher Choreography Video  Best So Long Farewell Long from the film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC I am off to I get back in hours I expect posts My vote for favorite Fiddler on the roof Tradition with subtitles Tradition Pink the Worst So Long Farewell Long from the film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC  the sound of music was my personal hell in middle school when we had to watch I actually met one of the von Trapp children at a mall in smalltown ID as a Bizarre where continual fame takes a person I have been peaceful for so but now I rise in defense of the Von Trapp family Von Mathematical truths are true and beautiful because they are of an order of being created by and a high one at so their beauty is higher than the material but even as Augustine were within and I and I sought you outside and in my ugliness fell upon those lovely things that you have So the only thing beautiful in man is the indwelling of the the indwelling of the Holy and that enables us to be informed by the beauty around us in the material their and immaterial I suppose it depends on what you mean by I just cracked Thank gratitude x Logos is a Indwelling of Logos enables us to apprehend truth and goodness in external signs and formula that are apprehended by entire entire Person to Requires more than Requires poetry and Total imagination and Total Legos are not a Scott Goodnight I fear your glory days may be May the morning prove me Math alone is not beautiful to all To some math makes other things TAC too mathy to resemble medieval liberal TAC too mathy make other things only but not good and The without good and can be ugly and Goodnight ladies Advertising easy to sign hit then hit with A curious interview with Peregrine on why God put animals in the Episode with Jonathan Scott Please join us every Sunday night at EST Joe will So Boyer have you spent any time with the essay Modern Moral TNET will wreak its own vengeance upon you if you try to abscond with its I have This an attempt to divert people from but to create a lasting fan club in order to discuss topics in greater Good TNET is watching John when TNET talks about bringing good philosophy to the wider this is the best effort seen in Ethics in the last years have to check out the Anscombe What do you think some of best contributions to One would be the refutation of Ascriptivism and his reconciling of esse with fregeian I also quite like his work on divine The best contribution is setting stage for analytic Thomism Also his work on I been but I was reflecting this weekend that the impulse to rely heavily on more recent works from the instead of the Scriptures and tomes of the is akin to and to a confessionalist impulse seen among former Confessionalist converts to catholic Alexander Gorelik John so in favor of analytic I am in the The flaws mostly come one certain points Davies trying to make Aquinas into frege on esse Does Feser consider himself I thought he was blackforest Analytic Not that the camps are all equally enclosed got to turn off those individual email notifications every time someone posts on this He is but coming from an analytic background and addressing I see other schools of Thomism engaging the Analytics very much on the broader You mean Yes To go back to the modern poetry topic this guy is pretty Four Chambers at the Farmers Four Chambers at the Farmers independent community literary magazine Going back to Daniel complaint If you grant that beautiful things are things which are consonant with knowing powers and that those knowing powers have an ideal state in which they operate at their then it is clear that there is a grand unified hierarchy of beautiful those things are more beautiful which are more consonant with knowing powers when those powers are in their best This account also opens a space for relative consonance with a powers in any state he finds But to deny the former sense because of this would seem to be John although there is a real question about whether the analytics are worth engaging for the sake of their positive contributions to Oftentimes it turns out that philosophy just rehashes sloppily what some medieval philosopher worked out in That is interesting It makes me wonder exactly what is meant by knowing since it seems to me that the beauty of a syllogism is not the same as the beauty of a A particularly amusing example came up in class According to the Transcendental view on the role of God in knowledge singled out is basically a sloppy rehash of Henry of views of John I also like Feser I think the most basic sense of beauty is sensible beauty and are only beautiful by extending the meaning of the is view as interpreted by Nieto and others at even admitting that is said in many comparison require that one thing be the same kind of thing as for we say that God is better than I even though there is nothing at all that is common to both of So what then is meant by knowing Does it ultimately mean becoming one with Beauty If then what does it mean before If that make sense try to While this is engagement should be for the sake of bringing others to truth and correcting the state of If we are going to complain about the state of mainstream philosophy and thought in we should try to fix Engage as a form of intellectual evangelization or not to find the truth but to promote And we should acknowledge where contemporary thinkers are The resurgence in essentialism is good and must be Imagine if essentialism replaced Humean neoempiricism in Phil of What a wonderful thing that would while that is not proposing engagement with philosophy as an end in but merely as something in the practical Weapons Grade Thomism TM of Geoffrey Meadows and John I was thinking on very mundane knowing powers are the five senses in the first sense of only sight and hearing apprehend the the interior senses and But not sure I understand the talking about appropriating analytic stuff as a means to find truth rather than engaging in if I read you  That is a fair Engaging in disputation is the medieval way to find leery of relying too much on analytics as pedagogues because the fruit of analytic philosophy is almost always some kind of skepticism speculative Ah fair I was thinking of the grander meaning of in which the knower and the known are There is a real risk in what envisioning John Jacques but also a duty that would be I still think it is worth even though I still feel like a newcomer to the analytic but the medievals would first determine which philosophers were worthy disputing partners I have found them reasonably welcoming to newcomers in my limited just curious about what it means to know the true versus to know the I meant in terms of how much I have Not every nor every should be but only one which might puzzle one of those who need not punishment or For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love parents or not need while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need The subjects should not border too closely upon the sphere of nor yet be too far removed from for the former cases admit of no while the latter involve difficulties too great for the art of the trainer not sure that the is speaking The affection in the soul that corresponds to beauty is I also am tempted to think there is a realist position buried deep in late but I find my copy of On Certainty which has the passages that make me think this Thus Thomas definition visum being is part of what was behind my claim that the proper end of literature is to delight the virtuous I like how Ed is keeping up wih two discussions at  But you did speak things are things which are consonant with knowing Did you not mean that to imply that beauty is I agree with your comment about but not precisely as knowable that beautiful but rather insofar as knowing it delights the Run that by me  Did you see the but I think I still need Ttyl Something is not beautiful because one can know I mean I need So far so But rather when one knows one delights in the So not beautiful as beautiful as This is also different from the that is good when causes one to pursue more as to cause Consider the difference between seeing a well cooked steak and a beautiful Apprehension of the former causes one to desire to eat the Apprehension of the latter causes one to desire to continue looking at the Okay I think I see what What about the apprehension of beautiful One delights in attaining the which is one delights in attaining of something I think a mixed seems like But people often want to show off their wife but want to share her with the that makes It seems clear that the philosophical like the were not chosen merely for their intellectual acuity but also for their popularity and Well but still the fact that apprehension of a beautiful woman causes delight both in attaining and in attaining of I also find looking to a source from a different tradition helps clarify the Thomistic Perhaps properly only in one but the point still Then a beautiful woman is both something beautiful and something Does that mean that knowledge of her is of two kinds at Geoffrey welcome to Unless you commented before I I think something like that is Most illuminating I think I might say that mistaking the subject of the the good or beautiful but rather the is good or The subject of the I realized my mistake too we say the is beautiful because when I see the I delight in the sight of We say the is good because when I see I incline to her as an end of my But apprehension of one and the same object would then cause a mix of two based on your I think one desires beautiful wife in two as something to be known and as something to be For some weird reason that duality bothers since I want the knowing to be a unifying Or maybe I mean unified I think all my position leads to is a twofold effect of the an inclination to continue knowing and an inclination into the thing I think it changes the unity of the knowledge we desire the beautiful because it is also good is delightful to You seem to be confusing By the I am a little surprised The Thread is not progressing in quite the same exponential fashion as in its halcyon Perhaps that will give me time later to write some things about why The Great Gatsby is a great work why I like Jane Austen why we live in a golden age of I was confusing my am not mentioning that author Jane Austen just happens to be the greatest novelist who ever wrote in the English not only according to my but according to John Nieto and Glen both tutors at She writes I regard them but if that is really their I think I will formulate a fuller response I think Nieto distinguishes novels from And not sure how that affects his I think the thing about Jane Austen is the action and interaction that drives the plot is very almost all of it happens through dialog between characters rather than in exterior that is It makes for a more novel My but I think more indicative of what real action is when we most of the motivation for the action occurs in whether internal or Well here is an the silences and subtle actions of or women reveal And every word one hangs Fewer more But there is a much different action in Homer and Virgil and also a different medium of The primary way Homer and Virgil present an action is through extended I am disappointed that has not yet be Their speeches are silence speaks The The similes are Virgil uses them when in tumults rise ignoble Mad are their and their tongues are And stones and brands in rattling volleys And all the rustic arms that fury can If then some grave and pious man They hush their and lend a He soothes with sober words their angry And quenches their innate desire of when the Father of the Flood And the seas his trident Their fury he skims the liquid High on his with Majestic moves and awful peace  In Homer the simile challenges us to make to weigh differences and some that are very both involving ratiotination and He is king of simile maybe irony to a point aristotle implies The previous simile is the one I always think of when I think of an Epic great But they are fewer in and Homer is How many times and ways does he use the lion simile Penelope too so subtle and seemingly But not Now to the Neptune compare speech to calm his men after Does he Is he calmed by his own Are his words It looks like What is he trying to accomplish and then what does he spem vultu premit altum corde I He seems to be attempting to calm his he calm himself but seems to calm the Kinda speaks to the common position of a He feigned hope with his pressed deep in his heart But their are untruths in his They had suffered no loss by Are his words His men seem jolly unmindful of the The quarry their plenteous dinner Some strip the some portion out the The yet in the caldrons Some on the fire the reeking entrails on the grassy at ease they Restore their strength with and cheer their souls with o passi graviora is not What does he What is the They avoided scylla and the not one word of it is quite They will not have peace nor refound but you are right that they are calmed not he with vast You are right They were calmed by a poor  I think necessarily a poor A speech can be well constructed and even if it employs lies my favorite line is perhaps one day it will delight to remember these they just lost most their That and the one ship of allies that is lost gets no no they are totally not sure what to make of it but they dont seem much concerned about there lost comrades except aeneas But then his worry and grief are not named and could be the lost need to turn Interesting conversing about Cricket sound hours of nature forest sounds full night relax meditation zen music This song was created to assist in the practice you guys stopped before  Nina I think that school has just so people are suddenly too gainfully occupied to tend to TNET It seems to me it is tough to persuade around a Aristotle and Longinus seem to underscore This restores faith in gainfully I say I think he goofs But his biggest gaffe is to say that they will remember this with That could be said of scylla and the cyclops but can you imagine that time we lost all our friends in hurricane Good Those were the But he seems to say kinda dumb things like this all the Not like the Aeneid brings up an interesting point music some have lamented the lack of good or music or whatever in But look back at Roman culture circa Can we say that there were some things that would make people today make we start translating Omnino nihil novi sub Catullus is like Cyrus I am not a fan of much of But Passer is hard not to laugh and he has no match in It was high brow not a huge fan of Catullus but some of the filthiest Latin poetry around get me started on totally LIS no one comes close in Did you know Juliet references is a running joke that classicists are all really Its true of many and they are sooo I did not want to be one of such strange I dont get Passer as in the Catulus And where is this never heard that et Especially But J is nothing but bawdy humor and a slam against good play if you pass over the Otherwise HS students have an arsenal of pervert actually is a great She does cherish him too much in the wrong But the parents are most to blame imo and the friar Romeo is such a self pitying a puddle of Too When i arrived at one school they had the Oxford editions and whited out every explained innuendo every book I just used the Dover I blame the teenagers are Romeo and Juliet loved eachother the way teenagers Just in beautiful iambic love each other to mutual you must have had a rough teenagerhood kids are not sure about that there love was not right but the parents are most to Modern Bowdlers with a case of Kids are even stupider when their parents are stupid the moral of the Their love But they were Young people are imperfect and love That is not I but middle aged people are imperfect and love as such I blame It would not be believable at all if Rome and Juliet loved each other with prudence and I am and So called a tragedy for a per comments I thought was the perfect   I guess I am not those damn Darwinist bastards have planted yet another to fool the weak Meet An New Dinosaur Say hello to Dreadnoughtus a newly of course not And we mostly There you go again trying to control the Only TNET knows when to shut people I   Heavier than a Speaking of Viltis used to take a razor blade to the Art books in the or so I was  Joel are you not sure I believe  That sounds like a got to be a Viltis is not the kind to blush at a Or any other kind of anatomy for that I did not mean to be Literally burst out laughing at Daniel Catherine   Good I do what i So what if God created the dinosaurs and made them look not really I could be mistaken hope I but it would be a double waste because the foolish indifferent to couples who went into the going in there to look at pictures of fine dirty or That would be But God is not Therefore Viltis did not cut out the I learned to knock pretty early Two arguments at I intentionally did not I just think she had more respect for beautiful things than Like I said Hoping to get a were   I worked for Viltis for four I never saw her cut anything some of her Kahlua That makes me feel whose on board for Denver going to the Super Bowl No the Super  I imagine some of us will be sitting here getting TNET past No time for these Super Bowls you speak Just to be getting to the winning not likely funny Jiffier gifs through Video Jiffier share your gifs with the world on the fastest It depends on whom they are up  I marvel at how you are unable to appreciate the glory that is the Professional Billy Madison My favorite scene from the film starring Just like Baseball football I know if I can handle another Super Bowl  My son was literally in tears until we sent him to bed at the half That was epically disappointing last So was The whole town was in mourning the next day I still know what the hell But I really get football It was like we were cursed or Matthew Peterson advance a thesis about God smiting the Broncos for forsaking his  They should have kept He could have learned a lot from As it Denver is looking even better this despite losing Welker for the first four not going to be as fun rooting for them here where I see the stadium lights from my house seahawks on meth high smacked down on some old Not Didnt Denver Big Sadly I only have time for one comment right but I wanted to ask whether anyone has brought up interpretation of Jane and ask what people think of Bye NOOO COME What is Was that in After sounds a bit familiar read TNET cannot be wielded by only Cast the TNET into the fiery chasm from whence it The problem is that if we destroy the Matthew will be destroyed with it and the beauty of TAC will fade and the tutors will return to the  Except this analogy is confusing because the only candidate I can think of for uniting and ruling the land after TNET is destroyed and the tutors sail to the undying lands is and that be right On a hasty It is interesting and i forgot how good Austen But i think Austen aristotle get pride magnanimity True magnanimity accompanies true of by Cajetan describes it Austen falls back into the Aristotelian Seems like Emma contradicts this What I mean is that she is and it is in this that she learns to be truly In the end I dont think Liz and Darcy overcome pride and only possible by grace or at least veerry difficult Macintyre thinks Austen and Ben Franklin were the preeminent ethical thinkers of their is something very true about ethical or moral I remember Let me go grab my You have to read I had no clue what it was Being humbled doesnt necessarily lead to I would have to reread that be Lizzy and Darcy may not overcome pride and prejudice but they certainly make some pretty significant strides in that direction HUMILITY OF HEART is Austen is in a crucial way of the last great of the classical tradition of the He talks about her in two different you might be able to Google book it but it is too long to quote Where does MacIntyre write on I just read a googled at same time as need to go to After Virtue Nina also After Virtue has been the of my reading list since I graduated from One time I did read the first pages sigh Austen again comment one point he makes important is that Austen may make fun of a lot of but only when she views them as not fulfilling their real social not because they have a particular social more than Ben  Austen Meets a play in one brief Elizabeth Bennett is seated in English holding a cup of She sips places the cup on a small next to Enter Oedipus the Sitting next to he upends the tea stand The tea set smashes on the Oedipus gouges eyes Elizabeth feints The really going to work Old Ben and FDR are curse words in some households ya Anyone else read of I think with you on And suddenly come around on is a day of i never said she wasnt good I just dont seem to agree with her fundamentally and we may be getting at It is a good what was Elizabeth feinting a left hook for the tea I get the play now talking about MacIntyre on Ben Franklin and Jane Bored If excuse return to and Austen much ado about nothing broken tea What would she do in the face of real stop feinting and hit somebody I have no issue someone saying my cup of or is good and but I have serious disagreements over After I think Tolstoy may be the best novelist and I disagree with just about every conclusion the man ever came to in his who would win in a boxing match between Portia and Elizabeth A great deal of the contumely heaped on Austen here however had fairly clear ulterior Pace Daniel Cervantes was clearly the greatest novelist and Don Quixote the greatest He could totally take Elizabeth  Michael was clearly playing Some critics contend that she used the breaking teapot as a distraction not merely to feint but to cheat as my only point from the start was the over praise of And keep in mind that to me the substance always takes place over That is just the way i Not everyone is like Does that make so Portia gives her the Is Shylock in her Shylock would certainly be a better fight trainer than Darcy ulterior I think i have been up That makes although separating out the of a work of art can be I I does the fact that War and Peace supposedly illustrates idiotic view of history too perhaps a view of history is mean as a work of it is Padding stats For me it But as with Austen I can still admire the It loses its lustre AND rereadability for what one can learn and more profoundly That is John was perhaps a poor choice of and not really aimed at you I just mean that the for read Hemingway and drink scotch and quote the Iliad battle is clearly more about the reader than the the substance of Austen is But to defend the detractors a world seems small and the men almost I think that is a fair P and P is one of the few with more manly men and even they seem selfish and small substance was the wrong word I will have to think on One of the few with manly I there are manly men in just about all of world was broader and Certainly dispute in depth is one of the main problems I have with My memory is His strength is in detailing individual He is more earthy and homely and your not afraid of breaking tea Just for the totally on board for Denver going back and winning the Super As for the censoring of the blushing I have a great A priest I knew a long time ago told me he was in Rome and hanging in the Vatican archives with a friend who worked They began discussing and the differing take on nudity from age to He asked my friend if like to see something interesting and led him down a couple levels below to what seemed a crowded storage He then produced an ornately carved with crush velvet purple A series of custom padded spaces had been carved into the case and each one held a marble The Great Penises of Western I guess the story was that at a point the ideological tide turned and they were ordered to chisel them but the curators saved them in case the tide reversed and they could be That story should be good for another few hundred on the What would Austen I have no pics and really want to plug Penises of Western into a Google image just Pics or it happen No Joel was perfectly correct At this pace we will surpass the Dow in another days or Andrew just regenerated TNET in one move  That story was the Best laptop for around To be used heavily but for light purposes and interweb PDF and occasionally playing video to Manly Austen the male lead in four of her six main I think the idea that there are no manly characters in Austen is These guys to paint rather stubborn who like talking about their last point fairly drives the plot in a few of the Some of them have extensive military and the ones that still own lots of land and like to Powerful rich men with guns and the lot of And so argue that these guys are the stereotypical and manly But not sure why this matters at because far more they are fully three dimensional characters that reflect the reality of they wore tight and had UC English they drink Bud play fantasy football or watch Yet not so sure the latter is an where is no i havent read Dickens in very But his world is more And fun even with the Has anyone seen or written a description of TAC which reference or updating my CV and I do not want TAC to look like Aquinas Bible By John means to Tight pants ARE manly an interesting appealing to women or being like a because my manly tight pants appeal to Anyone else interested in the Berquist logic discussion Speak Classic scene from the Ferris Day Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up Floen is unfamiliar with I take back And there are several real That is not it but I think I am figuring it and not Get it I promise they are very appealing to women being like a woman You talking to me Cause we can take this You Can I ask advice about accepting friend I am Jeff Great Books no no all original works math and all seminar style Degree equivalent to a double major in Philosophy and Theology with a minor in Math and Natural on my CV Thanks Peterson Far better A Liberating Education Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is to discover and grow in the truth about It is the and nothing that sets men And because truth is both natural and the College offers an academic program that aims at both natural and divine This curriculum presents the arts and sciences of liberal education as a comprehensive There are no no no and no The interdisciplinary course of study makes use of the original writings of the great and theologians of the and especially Thomas Aquinas are among the authors There are no There are also no lectures in the The curriculum is a sustained conversation in the form of and laboratories guided by tutors who assist students in the work of and evaluating these great Students develop the lost tools of and translation in critically reading and analyzing in mathematical and in laboratory Equipped with these the graduates are fortified to undertake any area of professional or Grounded in the arts of thinking and with a integrated vision of the whole of life and every subject becomes an open Even more alumni are prepared to live well the life of the free citizen and of the that was a drive by TNET actually reading the My Post who academically or professional would take this statement of entering religious life in the Dominicans or Jeff You could use the middle two or a of I I use the first or last graph Oh the one I respect the trolling to which TNET is a On the other do I want that level of trolling in my usual Tough that was a direct from the TAC A Liberating Education Thomas Aquinas College Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is In order for the college to be taken it needs to advertise to more than just Catholic parents looking for a safe Catholic place for their Catholic children For realz That seems to be what it wants to I went because I thought that it would be like but with a nicer campus and a lower price but it tries very hard to be a Catholic bubble The whole olde is not Magisterium line was a since the school does not graduate you as a Canon Lawyer You should be good to Jeff just as a former teacher of many TAC students and I regret to inform you that for Baby Sitting is a not a The first question always gonna get during any interview is can see from your resume here that studied a lot of but what about have you done any of What is wrong with you mean kids there to be safe and not to What do you Bubbles discourage The oppressive rules prevent personal as well as fresh thoughts and applicants who think outside of the I like how a story about severed statue penises in the middle of the comments about guess i cant speak to The HS and MS liberal arts schools i have taught at didnt have that problem save I think the bubbles discourage learning as long as the people in the bubble are there because they want to I it depends on the learning in of it be TNET without penii If you graduated from Christendom and at your first job probably gonna get asked what the omnio in written at the top of your resume Just a heads TAC is the but a self filling pitcher does not serve the purpose of being a Unless the intent is to create teachers that only teach TAC you need to change the those that already fit this description or wish to fit this description are not the best lack the the to describing any other possible excellent we used to call it a The pitcher is why TAC needs to build a new Office of The purpose of a pitcher is to convey liquid is to make things The other things that can be made wet are and there are different ways to do some are more efficient than The needs to teach efficiency and objects upon which wetness can be applied is wetness a  yes I taught Latin and thank you if the world is dry and TAC has all the the challenge is to make the world wet That pitcher has the faculty of wetness wetness gnosis and cannot be dumped on just wettitude some refuse to go in the Scott or do not wish to swim or go against the water drowning is possible aquatiousness the office is about exploring the available means of wetagism and Thomas Aquaticus humiditatem the link to the Berquist group Joel HF Aquaman is the most useless discuss  Aquaman has special sonar powers and communicates with the sea monsters and the beasts of the We share the same Creator as the sea monsters and beasts of the Leviathan is a sea The great Leviathan once roamed the The nemesis of all That ancient dragon tempts your soul But rest Our Lord has conquered those who curse days curse the day when Leviathan is Job  Come on Jeff we are one the colleges in Two years LOL just guessing you graduated in LOL  The few hundred feet surrounding the campus is not technically the I rise today in support of Aquaman the The time is Do the right Aquaman Cartoon Series Introduction Aquaman is a Filmation animated series that The drunkenness at the prospective tutor dinners alone should disqualify us from any talk of being Even I the drinking Michael I Louis CK said so Which is like Was there like a mass weed mailing that everyone got in the I know a facebook thread could be psychedelic til just you been paying penisia would be a neuter plural which seems Willy Wonka And The Chocolate Factory We are the music And we are the dreamers of Wandering by lone And sitting Most parents pay to send their kids to college so they can make Part of this is peer It has many Religious parents often send their kids to college thinking primarily about how they will keep religion within our cultural stay on the become good people and develop the and ultimately attain eternal So the fact that most parents probably send their kids to TAC in order to pay for a peer group or for something like a bubble very there are lots of other options along the above lines if that is what you are looking of which begs the question why TAC in particular and here they make the educational and liberal arts argument Post Ergo Propter On the Destruction of Higher Education GREG WEINER I wonder if a graph showing the income levels of Catholic liberal arts That would be interesting to The advice I give my girls about marriage and money is to look at the What does the Bible In the we see that our Lord does not discriminate between the rich and the poor He treats them the That said tell my you might as well go for the rich After I graduated from Christendom I masqueraded as a Victorian liberally educated man of leisure for about After that got boring and perilously close to being harmful to my I finally got my first real and started making a decent I think most male grads of all these schools spend about yrs before getting on track Things always work out for those with poetic If you understand math but not poetry vice keep reaching across the It all comes and always someone who can May TNET be like the golden golden gnostic ladder Consider the The little Cricket sings a song of A song of in eternal If little Crickets sing of things Then how much more can we sing of His Let me just put this out Higher education is It rips off the the students and the majority of the It is for the most in the main and nobody learns anything in high school any more so in order to avoid being a horns of the nature and facebook are the best TNET a virtual I learned more from reading groups and discussion with friends than most my classes with a few notable has anyone considered the nexus of metaphysics and quantum  i crushed the head of a cricket it was causing my daughter i through it in the trash bin I hope cricket season does not I learned almost no Latin or Greek more than what I had before i started credits to spin my yesterdays Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis todays adiabatic virtual interweb did you look up adiabatic some people are working very hard to make sentient sentient people is good enough for Matthew Peterson has now considered the metaphysics of quantum physics Kool The Gang Celebration Music video by Kool The Gang performing The Island Def Jam Music Group TAC is a real It You Christendom was like this but in a different In a good way hard to get a formation without suffering a My oldest daughter just entered studying to be a physical And she has had a good suffer to get to the Play it again my book just got purchased by the bookstore at the Basillica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in which is one of the biggest stores in the Please pray for a break for a a catholic devotional in medieval with real metaphor and plus master engravings from Natural The Blessed Book of Beasts There is a tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual Jesus from the RELIGION NEWSWRITERS VA Immediate Eastern Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of To follow up on MB and vent UD led me to a pit of scepticism that Pieper helped me out But I did enjoy and grabbed me a good Irish child bearing woman on the way out of grad latin culinarium et cubiculum est locus kai ta loipa I think latin poetry is easier to rhyme than Latin poetry wasnt rhymed til medieval Old English wasnt rhymed But meter no real poet does not only did I leave for a grueling hr overnight I also decided to sleep hrs before returning to and TNET is only just above Interesting to hear that Pieper pulled you out of the His books have a certain fetching but I never felt like they really delivered on their Leisure as the Basis of Culture comes to Was there one you found particularly easy catch up That was Philosophic the second hrs of catching No aesthetic judgment is Edward Consider in his back with Charles playing the guitar and they are singing Fleetwood Or consider that Coughlin took his future for a first to a Grateful Dead concert is just but now repudiates such music as Sean Collins was far and remarked it was not healthy to listen to only classical I after Michael Perea hit me in the head with a book for listening to the Grateful Coughlinn did concede that the tracks I liked were as folk Beauty Dickens was my favorite he was the only author the library had at my reading level were tested and then required to read at or and to improve by a certain scored college so no room for Dickens is the greatest penny Like Tom Clancy for the latter Not one of the great but fun nonetheless not the the fact that our senses of sight and hearing have a nature necessitates that there be a best disposition of those senses and an order among the objects of sense mutatis the same holds true for imagination and there must be something which is objectively Judging that is another But i think philosophy is different than he Or I should say he descibes a part God is most beautiful But I suppose referring to my claims about Everything else is more or and in different respects clearly SoCal punk extenso I am merely referring tothe argumentum ad authoritatem Nothing nothing less than what I It was slightly confusing I had both an argument about the superiority of Austen as a novelist and an argument about the objective order of beautiful I realize until after I posted that I sure which one you were In using Nieto and Coughlin as the authorities is what I was not in an altogether serious manner Charles and Fleetwood cannot forget Nieto and Coughlin I treat as the for I bring out Marc and Duane Berquist I finished catching up again in an altogether serious Ben Franklin was no Not in his published which at best off platitudes and have more in common with self help books than or in his flagrantly sinful and debauched life Daniel Tebow not a great player there Someone was filming Nieto Charles singing Fleetwood I fervently Please say someone has the Samantha speaking of drunken ad Just because I am a no where says ad It was from a he is talking about what is normally a venial sin Imperfect inebriation on its own only a venial The reason is that such an inebriation of a light disorder not destroying the use of with an existing sufficient extrinsic for for taking away at nuptials and other worldly imperfect inebriation of no unless still if scandal or some grave inconvenience arose Hence to drink even to the point of hilarity is certainly not illicit per but a a head of the family and other persons constituted in dignity ought to avoid hilarity of this since grave scandal and other grave inconveniences are able arise easily from Ebrietas imperfecta est ex se solum peccatum Ratio quia talis ebrietas est ex se deordinatio levis non destruens usum Existente sufficienti causa etiam ad melancholiam in nuptiis aliisque festivitatibus ebrietas imperfecta ex se nullum est nisi tamen inde scandalum aliudve grave incommodum Hinc bibere usque ad hilaritatem per se quidem non est sed paterfamilias aliaeque personae in dignitate constitutae evitare debent huiusmodi quoniam facile exinde oriri possunt grave aliaque gravia Dominicus Manuale Theologiae Secundum Principia Thomae Vol II Joel perhaps if I had been the sort to have a cell phone I could have filmed I think anyone there had the means to And it was just his brother and the time I lived with And in all Edward I do actually trust aesthetic but we all are wrong about somethings Such a common Couglin Nieto are not meant to shut down discussion Nieto in particular has a fairly strong aesthetic in my but neither is saying that after reading Austen you went out and recited bits of the Iliad while drinking Karen Zedlick once sang the Beatles to me while playing the guitar on It was Stopped I remember that Neither I was attempting to be not altogether let alone trying to close the argument on the contrary I was throwing fuel on the I did not drink any believe it was bourbon not sure if it was an intimate moment between us or if it was the greatest rejection someone should tell the tutors Either way I miss Say hi to whenever you I think it is altogether easy to be from another country and a woman on that right up there with when she told you that chewing tobacco was And a When Domiane Forte was chewing in class too but I got in some of us know the feeling Our hates come from our And as to say this and then although I never had time to It is no proof of but I used to remark that bachelor male tutors teaching young females seemed to especially love a certain plotline involving a man nearly years the senior of a gal he helps hooking up with her in the bwahahahaha They found it very follow in Not creepy at Oh no it was a different time But still when you think about Totally And very  beautiful like what do you think of married male tutors with many children generally seemed to have a more balanced But obviously they are incredibly written works that do spring from what in some ways was a very civilized yadda yadda But demographics of fanboy clubs often reveal I have a thesis But to compose it would take If there had been single tutors like knightly some of us would have been into it Laura Berquist is a case in But in Not a lot of insanely wealthy but perfectly moral dudes like Knightly becoming tutors these Or See this or at least the very end where he does a version for Hot Crazy Matrix A Guide to Women Join us on Think I finally stopped Here is my serious view of Austen I posted a while As far as her technical she is The setting for lack of a better atmosphere of the do not appeal to I think I may appreciate her if I was more familiar with the historical backdrop of her particularly the sentimentalist works that preceded her and she in some measure was a correction I have not read her often enough or recently enough to give an informed opinion over most of the Nor do I have the time or desire to do so at this point of While characterizing her as a high brow is I was introduced to Austen via a very feminist While at the time I saw that as somewhat it still colors the reading of Austen for Hence somewhat jestful along with several other of ourselves after the This was as much a jest against the somewhat overhyping of her by some fellow female as a joke on ourselves of course are only moved by war I say not What I mean is while it probably fair to there were some who were quick to exalt her before even considering her work as such precisely because she was the female This overhyping is seen in the wave of that happened a few years It actually take her seriously for her and if anything skewed the perception of Austen toward the category There is also in my experience the two type of Austen fans were either those turning her into a or still with a touch of who opposed her to the more martial I am allowed to have some fun at their And it did not dispose me to liking Austen Perhaps my opinion would change if I read her or got that historical Perhaps it would have been different if I had first read her without any lenses coloring her against my But this is where I stand hic et Now I shall resume my minor attempts at needs to fuel TNET back to exponential James That guy is batshit I say that as a gun nut you might be a gun but Yeager is just a I think whoever made that video is probably a But it went viral because it bears some cartoonish truths within Plus that video was super I made it through a minute before enough misogyny in the it need a TNET reference Even feminist blogs were linking made its way through pop internet And not pretend it have some relation to reality in a shallow especially in this Oh I but on principle as soon as I see I have to insult other videos of his as threatening to shoot people if Obama does X or I bet those who made it are misogynist but it still hits the funny bone for a nah had to give It perpetrates the stereotype that juvenile guys I make it through a I hate women enough for that I watched one minute and now i feel personally betrayed by Matthew Peterson I even know that about the but I could sense these people were My thesis is that there is a grave spiritual vacuum in that It led then to Dido like failings and eventually some contemporary But Austen portrays it when are we going to put to rest the junior high ideal that If you think extreme beauty comes with baggage you should come to LA some living in LA comes with you should come to Chitown some fly to LA if put me up for a long Or read the ancient intellect comes with baggage moral virtue comes with baggage The hot crazy matrix is usually presented in a more linear where crazy and hotness are inversely proportionate In as we all the true matrix is sane and But we all know TAC girls are usually a good mix of all three some of them not so much in the but that is from a malady affecting men I have only seen it at Joshua have I mentioned that you are one of my favorite facebook And women do tend to overlook looks in favor of wealth and stability and men do tend to overlook wealth and stability for just the sick old world we live not perpetuate Though not sure what you were getting at directly Rosary call Like the comedian says about being single or male or there are two states in life lonely or I feel so bad for TAC The men get a much better The girls realize until too The fishbowl effect helps us more than Thus is the world thus have we made the line from the Mission I agree with Kenz on most of his points although I did not experience the Austin hype until I felt no need to remasculate myself in I missed some of the but I had several teacher at least one at TAC and at least one I think I fell madly and platonically in love with Nieto during Senior but who answer HF there were plenty of attractive and smart and sane ladies at There were also a few insane in a way only TAC can house This insanity I also observed in some of the Interestingly all all from more insular like In my experience the boys did overcome this better at TAC then similarly affected female teacher crush at The cloak Fainting cloak I know that they were all homeschooled by any I even thinking about the cloak I saw that more as a weird eccentricity than It is hard to give hard examples while not naming and I think that would be detraction in this just say that being homeschooled is one being completely isolate in your homeschool parish just insular is quite another and there were a few at TAC raised in such while some overcame more or I think the TAC effect on others worsened certain of the dispositions that arise from such a Throughout my occasionally been surprised to find out some not very friend of mine was an Eagle scout my roommate and Thus it was also at be regularly surprised to learn that WAS homeschooled that person knows how to make and or that was NOT that person refuses to communicate in anything other than I mean who know what the middle finger be a California by insistence that I am making it up and need to go to that was a lighthearted paling in comparison to what I had in it took me to junior year to disabuse the notion among some that I was even in senior year some still thought sure what that says about Homeschool is not the Ours are about every other Some environments at home are better than face there are some people at but the worst that I remember Not to name names or but just say ninja and Germanic this to say anything bad about those Just that they were a bit My wife calls off the grid homeschool Catholics Mormon Well I suppose every class is and I by no mean am saying that public schooled kids be But and deeply rooted social problems are quite Maybe I was more attuned to noticing it in certain people more than it was because I was the social outcast most of the time growing and even these people seemed socially stunted to But it the mere not socializing that was the These people had some warped view on and really unhealthy approaches to reality uber piety masking and unhealthy But this is all Perhaps I just hit the crazy jackpot in my Since it seems limited to my or perhaps my class am sure some suspect who I am thinking no need to press We can leave it at the more general observation that beautiful and smart were not unheard of at Going to a small liberal arts school where everyone lives on the same secluded from civilization after being in a small secluded homeschool house does not a normal person Hans Urs Von or prophet and saint of new  Damning with faint praise I have a curious affection for the actual TAC oddballs although I roundly mocked them at the The truth is weird people are I was very fond of you as I always though you were one of the weird people Oh were you talking about TAC oddballs OTHER than Homeschooling is not the ideal way to educate I have done Samantha It can be great for some kids and great for some but a disaster for In it I dearly wish we could have made it accenda ossa eius that much should be fairly in the even assuming that a parent has the time and knowledge to do it he ust then also put effort in being part of a community in some other Perhaps in a different era years ago seems likes where kids did not need helicopter and played in the parks and they could socialize without arranging I am afraid no Most homeschoolers I know partook to homeschool helped teach each others kids went to a junior college or something for certain seems the natural tendency in homeschooling that is not is to start forming a loosely networked school itself I firmly assert over and that there is a difference between delighting in zaniness and actually being uncouth and I had a roommate ones who know what pot tell me about that Parents are the primary and teachers are in loco or should It is no natural function of the state to provide education But it is a natural function for education to be And this is seen especially in the The Church did not respond to mandatory schools through championing but through building a parochial school that at one time was open and even free to most Catholics and could be relied That was much closer to the that too is largely good Catholic private schools cost more money than many can reasonably large families i remember a passage in Campion where he mentions the secluded Catholic families went a bit It is what Right you could add smarts into the matrix along with looks and Sorry for betraying Samantha It was My wife and I were both slightly bemused by the Pick your I have seen it Well off before I more flame for the JA view of descent into where He suffered the pain of the stems from the Calvinist heresy and ends at best in TAC is often a halfway house for people coming from loony religious just got  It does a good job of helping normalize at least so far as this is reasonably Though for some it is a halfway house from one such cult right into this I think a related question to what are sine qua non qualities of a parochial been wrestling with this question because we have a mediocre Catholic school Alternative is color me Mr Clark is the exception that proves the rule The Thread transcends it contains multitudes of them within I gave up on academics at the Do they teach the Faith and are kids I find the academics are decent if the first two criteria Joshua pish we were lucky to have very rural schools with mixed But they too are being one core to rule them all and in the darkness JA can Calvin and Luther be they deeply oppose one another re political among other von ossa eius I but I heard he had regrets at the Does he know whether hell is How was Spyier not a false The criteria are pretty halfway house for loony religious that was totally true for I have seen way to crazy stuff in Catholic Legionnaires are not the lone What a there are lots of ways for parents to remedy inherent And of course it is often the best course available for a But the inherent deficiencies are very Joshua should be banned for doing Joshua incendus Ratzinger Von Balthazar But Ratzinger is one of H Von biggest fans In if an can be a Ratzinger is one for far as I can Matthew they are already They have fundamentally the same doctrine on all major points except the mode of presence in the Supper Is Roy on But what as to their notion of you trying to resurrect Calvin here as opposed to Lutheranism and watered down talk about Calvin and political theology is one See the work of Torrance Kirby who proves or Paul Avis and yes talk about whom all read Ratzinger has transcended his mentor But mediocre parochial or homeschooling completely Classical Forget the Catholic evangelicals are rocking some small classical schools these truth Where are you these days What is I just watched All hail Whit Caleb and I liked it Seemed given how much Metropolitan references Jane Whit Stillman as good without Chris though  Barcelona is my Stillman wrote a large part for Eigeman in and was reportedly quite upset when Eigeman turned him I think Metropolitan is but a tough Why did Eigeman turn him Is he doing some other thing I am not familiar I believe the other thing he is doing is  Did not know that about He is great in great in all of them I especially liked the between him and Taylor TAC has never normalized anything in its entire not the His riff of the closing scene of The Graduate is You got in because you were dribbling all over yourself while proving a Learn to Man that was an awesome sequence with But how about Chris character in Kicking and Screaming I realize Noah Baumbach and not Whit but still if there is any better film about first year after like to know what it  A friend of Lucy Ferrier wrote a piece on Metropolitan that I rather What Is It About On March Whit debut left the Netflix streaming Such changes Someone said above that poetry is but not necessarily But Aristotle says it is more than just add the word or to the name of the and speak of elegiac or epic as if it were not the imitation that makes the but the verse that entitles them all to the Even when a treatise on medicine or natural science is brought out in the name of poet is by custom given to the and yet Homer and Empedocles have nothing in common but the so that it would be right to call the one the other physicist rather than On the same even if a writer in his poetic imitation were to combine all as Chaeremon did in his which is a medley composed of meters of all we should bring him too under the general term But at least poetry does not need but meter and metaphor Metaphor is Dithyrambic poetry being a metrical And In rhythm alone is used without for even dancing imitates and by rhythmical The rhythm of dance with words is and song can be added and this is where the earliest epics may have come This being what form is for this in the cave the shadow of the red with new glimmers of The poetic for seems to be a much broader scope than what we today would call For one Aristotle seems to characterize the subject of the poetic art by having a which is common both to and to prose JA admittedly I am not intimate enough with Calvin to accuse him of agreeing with was a low But I do think ideas on the harrowing of hell are only coherent in a Nestorian And his whole eschatology opens up a lot of issues the immortality of true and false about statements said of those that died before is almost incoherent but it seems that he says that if it were BC and I said Abraham is in the limbo of the that would have been but it is false to say now that Abraham had been since when we die we awake in the particular and judgments are and there is no period of being a disembodied soul before none of these absurdities would I accuse Calvin For that I am fairly certain that Calvin does not deny Christ had divine which Balthasar does deny wrt beatific vision and infused knowledge of divine It would be a that I am not familiar enough with Calvin himself to what the suffering of Christ in for entailed with regard to particularly the beatific Balthasar says any admixture of divine knowledge would lessen His passion and detract from I think that is Metropolitan is as is Barcelona of Last Days of Well if I am not going to have an argument over how about a related one far as it concerns ideas about The Archdiocese of New York and Cardinal Dolan share the attitude of the ancient Romans wrt to ADNY has stood in the way of blocking attempts to exhume the body required by Church and has said he let class relics be as it goes against American Discuss am giving up if this start a Calvin share any of von von B is a kook in my I like the the the ridiculous or the weird Swiss seeress What was Calvins view Christ and the Beatific I did read a part of the Institutes on the descent into But I read much else of him If you want to start a fire here theology isnt the way to do You have to say that a line is made up of an infinite number of or that Lobachevsky is or that TAC teaches too much TACers care about They care about math fight about anything But if only for my own was view on Christ as viator and comprehensor Same here Thought for the anime is All of That includes Death Attack on Cowboy et Dolan seems to have been sliding ever since he wen to Very Surely you New York City is the capital of the Peoria can suck on boxing Then why he let Sheen be exhumed and when you say it that way   End Just thought was relevant to something in this Sharks nine times more likely to kill men than study says Telegraph Australian scientists baffled by finding that men He was archbishop of Milwaukee where he knew me on a first name basis by The way I heard the not only was the body to be exhumed but then it was supposed to be transported to the diocese in by the One of the most underrated cities in Now he is the proud grand marshal of which start with the Irish bashing warning I have been cast out of Milwaukee into the desert My kids are Irish and my wife could take Just and my three year old irish german lad could out drink Dolan watchee been a Catherine I get but TAC has COMPARATIVELY normalized many a  pm me on Calvin JA have to read your but from what read of Luther and Calvin the idea that they agreed on politics and religion seems then you read them for just one very basic the reason historians now call them the Reformers as opposed to Radical Reformers is because Luther and Calvin are on the same page about the Christian Das bezweifele ich That seems wild to Some texts on the No Dolan is Kyrie It seems to me the sentiments about TAC expressed above call for another cheer from Daniel Lendman Anyone else feel odd about two of the Luminous I find the titles of the third and fifth mystery feel out of place when compared to the other eighteen would prefer that the third be Sermon on the and the fifth be Last Luminous So plot would have to be an element of a along with imitation and I wonder what plot and meter would be fitting for a poem I Experience the power of a At only and weighing in at less than the IKEA Catalogue comes Hey Long Too in general seems to have sprung from two each of them lying deep in our The reason why men enjoy seeing a likeness that in contemplating it they find themselves learning or For if you have not seen the the pleasure will be due not to the imitation as but to the the or some such other is one instinct of our there is the instinct for and meters being manifestly sections of starting with this natural gift developed by degrees their special till their rude improvisations gave birth to passed through many poetry found its natural and there it Where is it In various including the Plot is the imitation of the Isak have you watched Naoki Just Since literature seems to be the only controversial subject these A modest Casaubon was a great intellect destroyed by a silly The truth about a great intellect destroyed by a silly woman MIDDLEMARCH is The repeat of the that is The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Eclipse of You Eliot is pretty rough on all academics through nicer to hard science academics through Lydgate But look how she punishes him for flirting with Possibly a stress induced heart attack would have been I have watched the entire hot crazy matrix video and have to admit it was a little bit I gave up after about a I have no sense of many feminists does NOT good to read Thomas and but they seemed to hold to flawed opinion in regards to some key issues on the human which underscores the need for dogmatic theology in the Catholic liberal arts It is interesting to examine the theological basis of the Immaculate proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception expresses the essential datum of and from away all explanations about how the soul is infused into the and Thomas seemed to assert that the soul animates the body after Aquinas seemed to hold the efficient cause of generation is the while the female is only the material perfect the active power of the according to the Philosopher in De Generatione but the matter of the fetus is what is provided by the Summa ad Thomas seems to have held that the human rational soul is created and infused into the body only when the human parents by their generative produced a material substance that is disposed to receive and to be informed by a human In one place Aquinas follows Aristotle in saying that the rational soul is infused at days for and at days for Commentary on the Book of John Haldane and Patrick Philosophy special commission of theologians set up by Pius IX to determine the revealed doctrine assigned the essential role to ecclesial And this criterion influenced the formulation of the which preferred expressions taken from the lived from the faith and worship of the Christian to scholastic IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX At the General Audience of Nina I have Should Will it convert for the sake of argument what if it were the case that it took days for a human to be that the point at which we would say that human person is before have a mess cells that a So EVEN if there were a mistaken notion of biology and human the dogma of the Immaculate Conception would still be In this is why the Dominicans opposed the idea of the Immaculate Edward I am the TAC is the Peyton Manning is the O most Holy who was pleasing to the Lord and became His immaculate in body and in faith and in look kindly on me as I implore your powerful O most Holy who by your blessed Immaculate from the first moment of your conception did crush the head of the receive our prayers as we implore you to present at the throne of God the favor we now your intention O Mary of the Immaculate Mother of you had influence with your Divine Son while upon this you have the same influence now in Pray for us and obtain for us from him the granting of my petition if it be the Divine not sure that the ensoulment question is really the key issue Prior to Thomas teaches that there is no original sin to ST III Q The error in the Summa seems to be when he states that her sin persisted post conception Thomas seems to have retreated from this view later in his for what his commentary on the Angelic say all this as no expert on his teaching on the In the question of ensoulment can still be validly brought up Do tell Daniel I know what there is to My only point is that I do not know that the definition of conception has to coincide with a medical a position such as Michael forwarded above seems I do not know that I am compelled to believe that a zygote has a human So fellow souls of looking for great recommendations of short novels or If we must use a I really enjoy books between and What does TNET have to Give me your precisely the to say that the BVM was preserved from original sin mean December Monsignor Quixote by Graham have you read any Knut I liked Hunger and The Growth of the Soil Is the question of ensoulment a metaphysical or a biological A biological with metaphysical A metalogical question only reached after many syllophors and Even if we have to take the in the IC is a biological we are not forced to deny delayed In the case of the generation of Christ Aquinas says he was from the first There is an objection to the effect that a full human cannot be present until the matter has been sufficiently prepared by the action of prior agents and that this must take To that Aquinas responds that what a posterior agent can the first can so God can dispose the matter himself an something that takes a finite agent time to do can be done all at once by a infinite God could dispose the matter to receive soul in an He could have done something similar in the case of the immaculate Which I think would mean biologically that Mary never lacked a nervous system and never lacked Is there a biological question that the matter is properly disposed to be human upon what is conceived is a I think everyone would say that everything along the way is human and even a distinct human life but not that they are necessarily complete human sure obviously Thomas is the theologian of the This is not meant to be critical of Aristotle or the I bring it up because the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception helps illustrate the overall precedence of the dogmatic The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception departs from view of application of and that of the was flawed in this Chances are his view of delayed ensoulment is also there appears to be no basis for The Dogma means that Mary was free from all Original fully and from Her And Mary is not only the Mother of God and the Immaculate she is also the same kind of being we This would suggest that our bodies and souls come into being at the same time at each of our life is sacred from Isak It may not convert but it is a show I would recommend to even to someone who like the It thoroughly spoiled me for most other anime and now the only stuff I can really watch is Miyazaki and a few of the moodier more stylistic when was My Neighbor Totoro is one of the funniest things ever seen I liked Moving and as well Interesting how the early Eastern Church celebrated the Feast of the Conception of Novellas yes Because we know all pregnancies last EXACTLY Novellas need to come unless they never left and betraying my own In they last exctly informative nonono units of Planck time I think the length of the pregnancy may but they all start at conception which is the very beginning of our formal We are very small in the I like where Aristotle says that the form of a particular poem by slow each new element that showed itself was in turn Having passed through many it found its natural and there it I think art forms like the novella develop into their a great so why celebrate on and nativity next is when Laura came into the Church at the Dominican House of Studies in a great I think the early Christians did not have with calander so it all got mixed up or the liturgical calendar is all up to the Wisdom of the but you can recognize that they are just days that have been picked I agree these dates have been But I think it is good to have the Feast of the Immaculate Conception near the Nativity because it helps underscore who Mary is in relation to Her Liturgy is poetical which enables you to compress time to better understand the so when is a human zygote which would mean Which soul are you talking you are quite The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment and it says this Here is what the Church no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human how could a human individual not be a human The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured This teaching has not been changed and is Donum vitae In explaining the immaculate Alexander VII explained that it did not refer to the active That was the heretical idea of the IC that was condemned by and was the version people held when Thomas But nor does it refer to the passive conception of the but it refers to the conception of the Anything else is Whether the conception of the person and the meeting of ovum and sperm happen at the same time or days they are distinct in and the conception of the person is AFTER the conception of sperm and ovum in the order of Were it the IC would be untenable And what time What about identical It happens at the same Conception is the first moment of being of the human the unity not so Identical twins split until after Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum devotion to the most blessed Virgin Mary is indeed of long standing among the faithful of Christ who believe that her from the first instant of its creation and infusion into her was preserved immune by a special grace and privilege of God from the stain of original in view of the merits of her Jesus the Redeemer of our human and in this esteem and solemnly celebrate the festivity of her the number of these has increased so that now almost all Catholics embrace We renew the Constitutions and decrees published by Roman Pontiffs in favor of the opinion that asserts that the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary at its and at its infusion into her was blessed by the grace of the Holy Spirit and was preserved from original The mistake is assuming both means the same thing now as and is It is How many Catholics understand the dogma the way proponents of the IC did in the Referring to active They would be heretics But there are two understandings of what happens what comes before has a rational soul and when it divides to form a second God creates a new rational the rational soul is not infused until after  Does the soul split or I see how the rational soul is there a common soul that Identical twins are almost like siamese but their bodies have split The bodies of identical twins split after They are two soul at conception in two in an accidental formal We can see that the souls do split and multiply in starfish and Identical twins are conceived as two I think the preceding soul would just become the soul of one of the if it is a rational so the second soul would come from the first if by you are referring to just empirically  Identical twins are conceived as two repeating do depends which scenario talking if talking about a raitonal the new one would have to be created It is false that the soul of an identical twin is generated from an original soul of the other identical That is If there is no rational I think say that that preexisting soul generates a like after in agreement so then if the identical twin is from a common fertilized the fertilized egg is either two souls in one body or not yet ensouled Did anyone claim conception was fertilization or Identical twins raise difficulties if the conception of the person is understood as being at the same time as active short of saying both souls are in the same body before it you cannot hold this If you hold it at the same time as passive then you can see the twinning process as another act of generative Against I think it wrong to say even a plant soul divides as Rather the like in would constitute another act of generation sort of a latent result of active The only difference is that purely natural principles cannot give rise to the human but it is this preceding ensoulment in nature if not in that is the explanation of the new long as we are referring to the rational that does not The soul is the formal cause which leads to a division of twins because there are That two forms must inform numerically distinct before there must only be one Identical three souls in one body formal unity comprised of three formal divided by each soul as formal But what nature that soul is difficult to  I knew I could kick start this  Does not I am surprised you are jumping to false conclusions as if they are This is Edward referring to the rational The question is and if two rational souls are in one body or or if the rational souls follow If it is one rational then into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the other It follows the night does what again is the false Scott seems to want one fertilized egg to be two people That one soul could lead to two That identical twins were once just one This is an unfounded A fertilized egg can only have one substantial how long can one thing be no such thing as a One thing can be two for as long as you want to entertain dumb matter and form I entertain all your questions and I am entertained by them Matter and form at conception human person thanks ok it is one rational then into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the That the rational soul is a special creation by strictly it is not from anything preceding except I did with the twin identical twins are generated by two souls in what might appear to be one do you not think Samantha just riffing on my IC claims I think the IC thing was dying I have scott may want to quote Donum vitae or another magisterium document that says the Church refrains from defining when ensoulment I think this is only entertained because it is on that theme then I think that can at least we have no empirical biological evidence to say that the embryo only to have one I agree with Pope Ed speaking to identical twins is not a rational soul splitting either one or two rational souls is directly created by God at the moment of Depends on what you think of what precedes two souls prior to twinning seems pretty ad hoc to but then so does most everything else said on the The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment and it says this Here is what the Church no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human how could a human individual not be a human The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured This teaching has not been changed and is Donum vitae And the changing of ensouled to is a the view that there is no rational soul before twinning would just be transitional form view of this is an item for is it possible for dogma to arise from Are we creating for the since this business I have flown to spent two weeks moved into an and taken a whole week of In that I think I have gotten over ten thousand because I was tagged in this monster originally and blocked and for some insane reason unfollowed the YOU ALL HAVE NO Conception of identical twins is two souls animating one body or more likely two bodies joined in accidental formal unity and the souls generate the division of the like siamese twins only divided I have a just easily distracted from just waiting for Ed to start phoning it in and saying you Gilson and Maritain might be or lolwut how are there you people ever get tired of typing and Identical twins is like It appears to be one material but it NO au have travelled went to a got some Cuban fixed my worked hrs a week down to but and have created a script to shrink TOPL down to a reasonable All of which is just a distraction from my life which is No This is the first topic worth discussing on been a member for years and I have posted more here than But identical twins are conceived at the first moment of existence with two human souls informing two formal then separated by their their formal And Tom i first came to this thread to post a similarly derisive So watch You could be according to the most certain teaching of Thomas Aquinas number in forms derives from division of Do I have two souls in me and I just split Not for human persons He had some errors about the relationship between the body and soul at Thomas argued that the soul was ensouled into matter long after  But we know our soul comes from What take us away from TNET makes us And God can inform matter at the Church has never defined that Thomas was in The reason we think that is biological For the same God did not breath life into the matter of a lower life So you are positing that two rational souls are in the same body in the same they are not in the same body in the same and contra the Immaculate Conception was and evidence is not the stuff of in one they are both there like a is this why you are a faith before reason prefer to believe without then Scott believes in the of souls probably been condemned somewhere read they are conceived two distinctly separate in matter but virually united in   Teaching classes this semester at institutions miles plus multiple and sundry other stuff my soccer Had multiple people over to dinner last night and awoke at for my So far today taught two set three and wrote a memo summarizing a phone call You have no excuse Tom The fallacy of the FB lurker has long since been debunked everyone of wasting time because they post instead of lurk with their open put words into Matthew I still have not forgiven you for abandoning the Foothill Cities Blog The only reason I have been posting during the day is I have a data plan for my phone here in Rome and unlike you gentlemen I have morning The right question is how you have a life WITHOUT TNET is what give us our It surrounds us and penetrates it binds the galaxy with identical both souls come into existence at How is this asserting the of And I cannot believe how insane all you people conception and ensoulment are the same But that is different from Biological conception I did not mean to offend anybody by pointing out that reasons against the Immaculate Conception were I did not mean to start an conception and ensoulment are not the same Ensoulment implies I gotta please try to not put words in the mouth of another formal One of those two souls is superfluous to the thus it acting as a form of thus just hanging ensoulment into a different I just think that seems like a necessary consequence of your Received some new books today ones on the I see ensoulment is like God putting a soul in like pouring water into a This seems like a silly view to I do not see that Thomas was not correct about something like that has to otherwise parents would be I get but your view seems to imply an even weirder kind of Scott Not sure what you are I rule out I think you are not getting what I said The fact that the DNA is a mix of its DNA implies that the matter in which the soul is received somehow preexists the of the I think you are not getting the implications of what you the conception of identical twins does not involve or imply ensoulment or matter that God pours two souls The conception of identical twins does not imply or involve one soul being then In no way did I imply This is a smoke I guess just superstition that we expect children to look like their Your point That what you is like God putting a soul in like pouring water into a This seems like a silly view to is Identical twins come into being at the same especially the Because God put a soul into matter that in some I think it is possible to understand what you are  Conception is the coming into being of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal That is also in a certain evolution involving God placing the soul of man into the matter of a lower life form is hard to if preexisting matter was completely why does God create a person inside womb rather than that Conception is the coming into being of the human the simultaneous union of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal I do not see how that follows as a relevant Identical twinning is the conception of two formal unities in one as it but these bodies clearly become distinct through If the human soul in the mind of God precedes  Whatever you Unless he wants to say that the mind of God informs a formal cause rather than as an efficient cause how can there be two souls in one That God knew us before were were born is entirely He knows us as a soul in act and as a formal unity in of souls is indeed heresy If anyone asserts the fabulous of and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from let him be Council of Knew I could count on you How can two men be standing in one How can siamese twins have two distinct Are you saying cases are the The unity is What does that Two persons two formal unities two composits two persons conceived as soul and body at conception reside in one which then divides according to the formal principle of their We do not know if the souls of identical twins both equally occupy all of their shared or equal they appear to be but they are really They are really two before they appear to be the thing that makes them two while they still look like one is their Their souls were there at conception as was their their souls cause them to split into two distinct you get to posit two composites and then say they exist in one only a fool would call any of positions They might be but not false in a silly If anyone asserts the fabulous of and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from let him be Council of see what I just riffing off of me Thanks day late and a buck short but it was a good riff like a Norwegian black metal guitarist seems like you want to say that there are two bodies and two souls from the they just look like one embryo We should talk about what happens when one twin reabsorbs the but Lendman probably was repeating it for sake  hahahaha For someone who whines that TACers do not study a specific number of even just via I find him woefully ignorant on Cannibalistic it exists I know re these difficulties are part of the reason the Church prudently does not define when The case of Christ was evidently not positing two composits in one But you do like to put words into And view of ensoulment was as was and I do not believe you are an authority on who is a fool and what words I may Thank Identical twins implies two persons from hence two at least in potential which become visibly distinct over Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate His reason for opposing it was flawed and This does not mean that he was not a great It just means that Dogmatic Theology is more The case of the Virgin could have been as but it is not defined Aut sicut abortivum absconditum non vel qui concepti non viderunt Not sure what you are saying I am about comments  Trying to catch I think I would conceded that the identical twin zygote is potentially I would grant that with respect to any zygote which point the words of Blessed Urban V to the University of Toulouse are worthy of is our which We hereby enjoin upon that ye follow the teaching of Blessed Thomas as the true and Catholic doctrine and that ye labor with all your force to profit by the Innocent followed the example of Urban in the case of the University of in the letter in the form of a brief addressed to that university on February and Benedict XIV in the letter in the form of a brief addressed on August to the Dionysian College in while to these judgments of great Pontiffs on Thomas Aquinas comes the crowning testimony of Innocent teaching above that of the canonical writings alone enjoys such a precision of an order of a truth of that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of Leo Aeterni Patris Got If you can figure out how identical twins come into you will be ahead of us Samantha is mad at me because I described view of ensoulment as I saw the usual Thomistic accounts of twinning are kind of a dodge or It does seem to be a real to say that there are two souls for one That would seem to violate the definition of the soul as forma WRT Mary being conceived like Alexander VII was means the conception of the not active or passive generation of the These must in nature if not in conception of the And if you fail to keep that you fall into the heresy that Bernard and Thomas were rejecting yes and century versions of the IC were As there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like The IC does not require It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies But in another they must be distinct even materially in some even though they appear to be one I think this must be the because they are twins from conception with two I twinning seems to be most satisfactorily explained by delayed But century Thomists do not hold delayed ensoulment it is difficult to say there are two souls for one They are really two souls and two in one At least not usually exactly  hence the problem Twinning is explained away by delayed Not really even if there is a rational soul it has all the powers of the sensitive and vegetative souls and we see in animals and plants that such souls can produce a like via All have to is that when the the it generates something with a human vegetative possibly sensitive for which God then creates a new rational Delayed ensoulment just seems to that solution seems at least as implausible as delayed So just say that delayed ensoulment is a special case of normal human Two souls and two bodies in one apparent body is not a The souls take care of They divide and grow with the WRT Mary being conceived like Alexander VII was means the conception of the not active or passive generation of the These must in nature if not in conception of the And if you fail to keep that you fall into the heresy that Bernard and Thomas were rejecting yes and century versions of the IC were As there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like The IC does not require It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us The matter has to be suitable to the form there is no way that an embryo is suitable to a rational Joshua But we only have ad hoc evidence that it only appears like one Scott at least is seems very possible that it is not suitable to a rational  The problem is the two bodies part where there is one I find it more a more satisfying It is far more mysterious and It adheres to the fine notion that conception is the potential But that means that they Typically I am compelled by arguments from In this I fear to be so It is no Zoom in Look at the It splits into two For the very plausible reason that science might show something I do not think we will prove If we no doubt we will look What if science creates identical human Conception precedes so why are you looking at one Conception precedes what does that even mean Do you mean distinct It means that Conception comes before a human genome is present in a It is The splitting of the first DNA and the splitting of the first could be the first division of bodies of informed with two It is something we will never be able to see or prove with what the hell do you mean by a tricky kind of argument to Even if one takes my proposed that the twinning is another passive a new generation if the original zygote had a rational it would seem that brother is begetting well a lot of issues Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing and it seems insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single but as something that only begins would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with as being its The still capable of then would still be undergoing and the generative act would still be and hence retain the potential for multiple I though he was going to go with or something Not really you can never prove the Immaculate Conception by scientific observation I thought we were talking about I thought conception was distinct from fertilization if they could happen Conception is the first moment of which is not necessarily the same as Joshua Kenz once said Even if one takes my proposed that the twinning is another passive a new generation if the original zygote had a rational it would seem that brother is begetting well a lot of issues Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing and it seems insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single but as something that only begins would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with as being its The still capable of then would still be undergoing and the generative act would still be and hence retain the potential for multiple fertilization is a biological  so they could be events in The zygote is not capable of Only two souls which appear to be one are capable of But they are already Twinning is a And this is the part where it become beautiful and The zygote is not a potential But what what if scientists create a What if they clone a Will the clone have a What about a child with three It seems to me the obvious answer Are you saying that human scientists can take a and split the stem cells and form an identical twin with a distinct human  Are you saying that human scientists can take a and split the stem cells and form an identical twin with a distinct human They can do crazy But a three parent will he have one and a half There are babies with three parents baby the free encyclopedia babies are human offspring with three genetic created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future mitochondrial DNA comes from a third The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy Scientists make Human souls do not come from the potency of It would seem that God provides a soul whenever there is proportionate Not He provides them We do not create the only the Not even And of course God is not compelled to but does so and provides a soul whenever there is proportionate is I understand the desire to want to hold your but the fact scientists are showing this to be the You cannot tack one half of a formal unity onto the other and have a formal They must come into existence AND IN THIS And scientists are in no way showing they can induce a human soul from the potency of What happens when they clone What happens when the baby has three baby the free encyclopedia babies are human offspring with three genetic created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future mitochondrial DNA comes from a third The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy Things just seem to work the way you want them to Human cloning is not a I know modern science can be but let things like children confuse Three parent children is like organ borrowed Ethical stem cell treatment involves cells generated by other It does not mean if I am injected with stem cell treatments that I become part of that stem cell you should lose the  found a third way Your statement that just seem to work the way you want them to is a false A shallow rhetorical let modern science confuse the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies But in another they must be distinct even materially in some even though they appear to be one I would like to point out that Scott switched to the position I suggested he actually espoused putting words in your mouth New spectre of cloned Scientists create embryos in lab that grow No I did You seem more intent on not being wrong or not than being What I said in one sense they are in another they are This is not a My at that was to show that modern science has pretty well that when the material conditions are so is the It is not as though the soul come through the stem You said they appear to be but are materially two they can be really they can appear to be trying to be just trying to read the And the fact is that human cloning is not real and is a Not to mention those experiments done by Driesch where they would divide zygotes in half and each half would develop into complete sea Are they formally distinct or materially being confusing I wonder if a similar experiment works in higher Fortunately ethical restrictions have prevented such Human generation is unique in but plant generation can produce a kind of twin through the potency of The matter is one in form but two in Because the formal cause in man is not induced through I think it can seem implicitely or I it would be rash to dismiss it as an Daniel when the material conditions are so is the so proposing a zygote does not have sufficient material Just trying to be clear about your position without reading everything lol there would be nothing objectionable in experimenting on Cloning animals is because the animal soul may be induced from a material Artificial Embryo Twinning Artificial embryo twinning is a relatively way to make As the name this technique mimics the natural process that creates identical In twins form very early in development when the embryo splits in Twinning happens in the first days after egg and sperm while the embryo is made of just a small number of unspecialized Each half of the embryo continues dividing on its ultimately developing into complete Since they developed from the same fertilized the resulting individuals are genetically Artificial embryo twinning uses the same but it is carried out in a Petri dish instead of inside the A very early embryo is separated into individual which are allowed to divide and develop for a short time in the Petri The embryos are then placed into a surrogate where they finish since all the embryos came from the same fertilized they are genetically  I think that that is at least a reasonable Identitcal twins are not human Different are some peeps really saying there are no such things as At least in twins should be genetically Pop science liberal arts Genetically identical Nope actually quoting real you know from a real university  pop I think Scott is saying that he thinks that human clones do not and are impossible Cloning is the artificial generation of a genetically identical The definition you just threw means that identical twins are Edward Langley is holding that artificial cloning is just artificially caused Right I meant The lulz At least in certain  When you say think Scott is that really is almost the weakest argument there  I was just trying to catch Adrw From the article I it looks like there are two different methods used in cloning Embryo and Cell Nuclear Was I I think Samantha is saying that human twins are caused In the they literally take a slightly developed divide it into cells and reimplant the cells which then develop into complete I think Daniel is saying that it really is possible for someone to have three Scott I say think Scott is because I have no clue what position you  In the they take the nucleus from an adult cell and implant it into an which then develops like an I think Edward Langley is saying that human cloning is no different than identical I think Daniel is saying that happens after I think Adrw had already caught  I think Adrw had already caught  Caught up When I No disparaging sentiment is above you claimed that Edward Langley had fallen victim to pop That is certainly DO you have any articles that you can link that would argue your If all one means by is or then twinning just is natural I think Samantha is saying that just impossible for two formal unities to exist within another kind of material do realize that the genome after conception because of various induced but that would happen to clones as you missed it Adrw is all caught I feel so deprived This seems If all one means by is or then twinning just is natural Read it looks to me that one form of cloning is just doing artificially what people do I think Daniel is saying she does not mean to be she just thinks that suggesting thoughts for another is a legitimate form of discussion or I am still not sure why you are offended by my in order to summarize a I was actually trying to be respectful and not put words in your by the I hold with Samantha that two forms must correspond to two Daniel Lendman you are being trolled I think that thing that Scott thinks I think is what I Have we seen Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up Floen is unfamiliar with with most of the other people in this We Still though Or you could take it as an opportunity to see where your opponent has misunderstood your and charitably seek to further explain ethicists and eugenicists say that identical twins are the same thing as clones to support the unethical I wonder if how the other graduate students view The deduction Is there an article you can Scott that would explain your Just because something happens by nature does not imply that it can legitimately be done by see for or cloning seems to be artificial twinning Daniel is saying that scientifically and metaphysically possible to have three just like pop science is If all one means by is or then twinning just is natural Is there an article you can Scott that would explain your I am one of the few people that gives your positions serious consideration Maybe you burn this Daniel is saying it is impossible to verify that two human souls exist in a microscopic identitcal twin because the Internet does not say burning his boats led Cortes to Daniel just threatened It is okay to be Lendman It is okay to be Is there an article you can Scott that would explain your I do believe Daniel just gave Scott quite the reality and Scott found reality kinda by overthrowing the Aztec Cortes freed the surrounding tribes from and look how we now treat it is okay to be wrong and sad but I think you are very called Daniel And add to the the Spanish ruled portions of the Americas are the only ones where the natives managed to keep their original and I think you learn something about the Is there an article you can Scott that would explain your  Freed the surrounding tribes from Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated I am just stating the you are denying The burden is on not might be a colored the Aztecs would raid them for human and the Spaniards were enlightened rulers the burden is on not Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated No one is saying that the souls of identical twins were generated I think established the deficiencies of the Christendom biology At least the Spaniards force the natives into there are lots of ways to be And they actually educated them and taught them more advanced agricultural practices in their you suggested that a child may have three Is there a scientific journal you can link to that proves The burden is on   denying that the Spaniards had their but they seem to have been better colonizers than the that would be a misunderstanding of my My position is that humans create the material preconditions for a Can you link to an article that proves or supports The burden is on More or Scientists Say Due Date Is In Two Years A medical procedure uses material from three people BILL CHAPPELL but the surrounding tribes from your You guys I think you are The burden was on  On  being forced to supply human sacrifices seems to be a pretty severe form of Does npr I think you are a I think we all need to slow so is forced labor and racially based Because it is very unclear why you are so I still think you are a big Built To Spill Cortez The Killer And Now it is awkward for STOP the threats This is a philosophy None of that empirical You guys just  What the     I smell the return of the but the Aztecs imposed that on the surrounding tribes as I was really trying to Stuck on arbitors of  just that the Aztecs divided the races Joel probably not So The Spaniard liberate anyone from  So I just finished a big youth prayer meeting so still up at this ungodly hour and can enjoy watching The Neverending Thread unravel a You liberate a slave by making him your slightly better treated slave just I was just trying to follow the  Good work Have I mentioned that Jane Austen is the greatest English Language prose fiction writer by God bless you Pater Edmund Going from as human sacrifices forced labor and racially based labor and racially based is still a step up and being freed from Can we talk about Iran on Pater talk  my guess the Colonial mexicans lack of a better really imposed something closer to a feudal system than outright slavery in you and natural slaves make this You proud TAC alum are just mad because Thomas is not as critical as the Churches Dogmatic and you really focus on irrelevant to the question because any slavery in Mexico was just slavery by Iran is a horrible abuser of human AND Aristotle was right all along because projectile motion DOES require a continuous actuality it just was the physical entity we now call instead of Iran is not a As has been pointed out position dogmatically  For the weapons of our warfare are not but mighty to God unto the pulling down of destroying And every height that exhalteth itself against the knowledge of and bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of If one were a Catholic or one would condemn the false theocracy that was I warned I know a person named so be I have no idea whether if that is his real is NO people under ISIS might be better off if Iran were to take over the I never said it I said basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was His rejection of the Immaculate Conception was wrong and if making then my guess is that They would be freed by Like the Spaniards freed the the the Spanish crown granted a person a specified number of natives of a specific with the indigenous leaders in charge of mobilizing the assessed tribute and In encomenderos were to take responsibility for their Indian in particular the instruction of the Indians in the Christian The receiver of the grant was to protect the natives from warring tribes and to instruct them in the Spanish In return they could extract tribute from the natives in the form of or other In the first decade of Spanish presence in the Spaniards divided up Indians who were worked With the ouster of Christopher the Spanish crown sent a royal Fray Nicolas de who established the formal encomienda In the difference between encomienda and slavery could be Many natives were forced to do hard labor and subjected to extreme punishment and death if they Queen Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous vassals of the Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their and I have to I just have to be the Bic to this absurd trifecta joint of That looks like feudalism to Encomienda the free encyclopedia The encomienda Cortez came across the water Obviously I think that Islam is not the true so of course I wish that Iran was with his galleons and his guns And I that in parts of the Spanish colonies might have been worse off under the Spanish than under the and when he spun around he discovered the otter But that being I prefer Muslims who actually believe in Islam to I mean to make but the way TAC alum argue is to put words into the mouth of or attack them like a street really flawed and you should take a look at Can anyone tell me what I did that was How can one be moderate about the highest worry about I was desperately trying not to put words in your Here comes the part when Scott tells US that OUR rhetoric is muslims just deny the parts of their religion that are obviously horrible By the did you guys see that the SSPX just celebrated mass in But it seems like the Crown of Spain did its best to ensure that the indigenous people were treated Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous vassals of the Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their and okay to be ok to be What X is saying is mistate his You think all cool and straight For is it not instead of beginning with to throw oneself generously into that form of religion which is providentially put before Is it or is it to begin with private May we on the other look for a blessing through obedience even to an erroneous and a guidance even by means of it out of Were those who were strict and conscientious in their or those who were lukewarm and more likely to be led into when Christ Yet in proportion to their previous would be their appearance of I have always contended that obedience even to an erring conscience was the way to gain and that it mattered not where a man so that he began on what came to and in and that anything might become a divine method of that to the pure all things are and have a virtue and a power of And though I have no right at all to assume that this mercy is granted to yet the that a person in my situation may have it granted to seems to me to remove the perplexity which my change of opinion may how did that go What does it I think the Spaniards probably did lots of things that were bad by their own and certainly by modern I think most of the opprobrium leveled at them is whig since they had to be much worse than the The difference between you and is that we generally back up our positions with credible documentation and You seem satisfied with bare The okay to be ok to be was my counter the rhetorical and diplomatic skills of TAC graduates are reputably a ridiculous assertion on its face I did not willingly your In all There you proving my We all do plenty of What is counter Suffice it to that was not tI know if they were worse that the but they were certainly different from All saying is that they nobody  you just proved That part Presented without Front Royal Antisocial Personality Therapist Antisocial Personality Therapist They got and celebrated mass in honor of Pius feast RORATE SSPX Priest Celebrates Mass in Saint Basilica I think it is helpful to recognize that often there are many people aligned against It is hard to argue coherently against a just basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was His position was is why I was trying to restate your position From it easily seems like ganging Ensoulment is Kind of like how did God create the foundation of the And cloners are playing God it Pater what if the religious tradition you were raised in is based on like You were misrepresenting my position  it be better not to throw oneself into that religioun beat me DL Gotta you sweet God Daniel was doing he certainly mean I think your response should be to show him what your position really instead of flying into a trollish Scott he was wrong about the but I see that he was wrong about the genesis of a not sure exactly how wrong he was about the is the Come on are we really lecturing Peregrott on Have we learned because to know have to know what his contemporaries meant by There is an Indian tribe in Mexico that has a legend according to which after the Fall of the first man and woman the tree turned into a pine the fruit into a pine and the a Thomas Looks like roped Susanka into going to keep banging the drum it all that clear that Thomas in ultimately reject the Certainly his biology compel one to reject the Good Q about idolatry  I wish this conversation would turn to human Certainly Islam is an improvement over the of ancient I think it is okay and reasonable to suggest that Thomas might also have been wrong about the genesis of the human He may have neen but it is also reasonable to hold that Conception may involve the simultaneous coming into being of matter and all I was I think the of the TAC is Gotta Nice chatting with the people he was most directly arguing against in the Summa what I read is DID have a heretical conception of what the IC I feel like there was a whole conversation I missed in the conversation we were Very often Scotts summary seems so very different from they way I recollect hard to argue coherently if Scott I think you have to believe that significant knowledge of the true God can be had through Islam to admire Islamic Michael not And also that the false things taught about him outweigh the may formulate the question discussed by them in two both of which are against the sense of the dogma of the sanctification of Mary took place before the infusion of the soul into the so that the immunity of the soul was a consequence of the sanctification of the flesh and there was no liability on the part of the soul to contract original This would approach the opinion of the Damascene concerning the holiness of the active The sanctification took place after the infusion of the soul by redemption from the servitude of into which the soul had been drawn by its union with the unsanctified This form of the thesis excluded an immaculate The theologians forgot that between sanctification before and sanctification after there was a sanctification of the soul at the moment of its To them the idea seemed strange that what was subsequent in the order of nature could be simultaneous in point of Speculatively the soul must be created before it can be infused and sanctified but in the soul is created and sanctified at the very moment of its infusion into the Their principal difficulty was the declaration of Paul that all men have sinned in The purpose of this Pauline is to insist on the need which all men have of redemption by Our Lady was no exception to this A second difficulty was the silence of the earlier But the divines of those times were distinguished not so much for their knowledge of the Fathers or of as for their exercise of the power of They read the Western Fathers more than those of the Eastern who exhibit in far greater completeness the tradition of the Immaculate And many works of the Fathers which had then been lost sight of have since been brought to So is that what you Pater CATHOLIC Immaculate Conception In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary the first instance of her by a singular privilege and grace granted by in view of the merits of Jesus the Saviour of the human was preserved and the Catholic priests in the Americas defended the natives against the How many mixes do you Where are the NE US the was a lot worse to the I claim the English were But it never goes when encounters  We can all still hate the By all I meant that going from Aztecs Spaniards was not like going from but more like going from not the one advancing crazy claims about Old Worlders liberating New By liberation what Edward mean was a rather bombastic rhetorical flare that he does not fully Just retract the Then all good But it probably helped drive away a I know their political but from what read theory sounds like a religious version of a historical that expedition liberated the surrounding perhaps the succeeding Spanish government oppressed them but that was not expedition for all I not the way Cortes intended his conquest to turn You liberate a slave by making him a different kind of Cortes immediately set up shop as overlord A hierarchical society  I should come by and liberate your alcohol  I see evidence that the Spanish set up a feudal society in Mexico and that often happens in feudal individual officials oppressed the encomienda was distinct from slavery in theory but not in fact it was inherently oppressive because the Indians had few and none that were consistently enforced like saying is distinct from slavery in theory but not in no it is NOT They also have twitter to inform the Queen of their plight kinda hard to have a consistent domestic policy if message transport involves a month  not attacking your precious She probably meant well Pater Edmund left again Samantha it was a bit more complicated than that in Mexico and the New World generally more complicated than still I know about false things outweighing the I have to look into it But they do say a lot of true than making it out to be The feudal system in Europe a form of slavery but there were plenty of rulers who abused their authority John in for re the status of the natives the natives had lots of rights under the Spaniards that were consistently But only an Enlightenment philosopher would call the European serfs My point is that your criticisms apply to feudal systems That God is compassionate and the Creator of all the guide and lawgiver of who sits enthroned above the shifts of who changing all things remains Himself JA Escalante ensoulment is a difficulty for Is there a theory for which it making a particular historical not a broad theoretical claim they had rights as subjects of the Crown which were enforced with increasing consistency it varied by regions and but in general it was a movement toward greater at some points the criollos were actually angry that the Crown was doing so much to enforce the rights of the new subjects And my historical point was that the kinds of abuses you found in the Spanish colonies are the kinds of abuses one finds in feudal societies And are consistent with a but generally I prefer to agree with Samantha so leave it at that you found similar abuses in the American south Except feudal European societies based on a conquering race subjugating original inhabitants which is a pretty huge difference Tell that to the Or the or the   The Saxons under William the for the most then Most of European society was founded by Roman and a long period of those people liberated by their conquerors either And the tribes surrounding the Aztecs liberated by the conquest in some minimal Third Estate need not fear examining the It will betake itself to the year preceding the and as it is nowadays too strong to be conquered it will certainly resist Why should it not repatriate to the Franconian forests all the families who wildly claim to descend from the race of the conquerors and to inherit their rights of If it were purged in this I think the nation might well recover from the thought that it would be reduced to the descendants of mere Gauls and When our poor fellow citizens insist on distinguishing one lineage and could nobody reveal to them that it is at least as good to be descended from the Gauls and the Romans as from the Welches and other savages from the woods and swamps of ancient some will conquest has upset all relationships and hereditary nobility now descends through the line of the then we shall have to arrange for it to descend through the other The Third Estate will become noble again by becoming a conqueror in its own Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès What is the Third They no longer had to give up their men and women as human Arthurian Republicanism Third Estate need not fear examining the It will betake itself to the year preceding the Could you define Pater I often confuse the various Understanding Lesson One by Sheikh Dr July I think it was a pretty long time before the rights the crown granted the natives made it to the New World in any very real In the most of them were dead from smallpox anyway That was a limitation of the transportation available at the The first is the nobility conquerers according to the second the the third the other Gauls according to there was generally a lot of conquering all the time in I take back that claim If you told the Indians at the time of Cortez that the Spaniards had liberated they just know it yet because of the limits of transportation available to their I think be rather nonplussed But I think whether or not the Indians thought they had been liberated would depend on whether you asked an Aztec or The Spaniards just enslave and slaughter  But take my word for take Bartolome De Las I was focusing on what is now called And the Aztec also not clear that Cortes is reponisible for what happened after his conquest of He exactly on good terms with the Spanish I think it is a perfectly respectable position to hold that the natives were better off under Spain than under the That is a moderated version of your original But I have to make Ciao all I meant by  Matthew Peterson No Take it Take it Take it The First Family Robot CROWDFUNDING NOW at See what JIBO can and how he can fit in and All of the Europeans were more or less dicks to the Of all the evil they are accused toppling the Aztecs was actually a good in But human sacrifice was practiced this day in the highlands of Peru remnants of ritual combat happen every year before planting members of different villages go all combaty with each Now just because the and much of South American dominant tribes were mean Europeans replaced them with In if the French treated the Indians far better than the And both were better than the I have been told two reasons why the French treated them better they have must be But this was true of the Spaniards and Portuguese No legal Technically true of the Spaniards But But here is what set them were interested in furs and the and less in It is simply more economical to be on good trading No need for field not against it must be said that members of other tribes did aid and ally with the Spaniards against the I think at the time they would see it as being is what came shortly thereafter that would change that I also think the deplorable wickedness of many American either contemporary or already gone was often seen as giving too great a warrant to lord over After their society was we have to subjugate them in order to save it is merely because they are The English and French had less basis for asserting such of but that stop the in at least after the French and Indian had a far more humane Which we enumerate among the intolerable acts of tyranny of but that is a whole other can of worms I still want to hear more about the various options if one believes in an immortal soul for a material animal hard to understand even with the other Edward the break up of families and the attendant evil was not inherent in Even the Southern Jeremiads condemned that great sin in the In other even some of the fiercest proponents of said the south would be punished by God because of breaking up of slave families and the like which had slavery for a little while did not allow the break up of Neither did Imperial That the Spaniards forbade such is a small since even the Portuguese did that and they had slavery jure and de My was that the legal framework the Spaniards imposed on the natives is not a matter of problems seem to stem less from the system itself than from corrupt Our Lady of Gaudalupe did not come to save anything but a less than hopeless The relation of the French to the Indians is Especially in World War where the Indians were employed by the French to basically wage total war against English I made I think Kenz summary is pretty much Would you also argue that Russian serfdom Edward I am having a hard time following your analogizing the Spanish system with an century fictitious You are saying that the Spanish modelled it after the construction of French philosophes writing years In case you cannot follow you do realize feudalism is a as far as I Are you thinking of I using Feudalism in any technical then what sense were you using the I know of no consistent as bad historians trying to force it bak through projection come up with various contrary Russian serfdom is a good example of that technically but in fact What I meant was as far as I can the government of the new world was just an extension of the way the government related to commoners in the Old And I would guess encomienda was a lot at least at its In all I have no idea what that word is supposed to mean Do you guys mean I know what Edward I think he just means that the natives were laborers on land that theirs the cranky medievalist in me Thompson said once that if you even want to see a medievalist just use the just agree that was a ridiculous thing to and I may have initially overstated the evils of encomienda  Can I call you  I agree that it is ridiculous to say that the Spanish liberated the But I still reserve judgment about  once I finish the thing look in more depths into Spanish it looks like Manorialism is essentially what I meant by Feudalism least if Wiki is to be Interesting aspect though of the Spanish encourage interbreeding with as were not subject to force Compare that to the if you could pass as most of the Healy if your mother was a you were a slave leaves us with bizarre aspects of like a US naval officer who was legally a a president of Georgetown that was born a slave and served while it had a no blacks a bishop of Portland Maine that was legally a slave even as he was ordained a that wacky Healy pretending to the black to mention the Grimm Perhaps this is all I degrees of servile peasantry underpinning a hierarchy of localised power curious to learn more about Russian My knowledge of Russian culture is pretty much limited to literature and From the little the Russian system of serfdom was radically different the English system of But the emphasis here is on And all that tells me is that Tolstoy wanted to free the A movement which seems to have lead directly to it was pretty England was always and got more Russia started out pretty and got increasingly less until Catherine initiated the reforms and Alexander completed them You could buy and sell serfs in Which you ever do to the peasantry of as far as I Was that a matter of buying and selling the land the serfs lived I dunno how that to the French system in the assume generally the ruler of the European serfs would be whoever owned the land they lived Katie serfdom in day to The curious thing about is that he seems to thinks that the serfs were the real that dancing serf scene in You know what a real weakness at TAC We learn it at outside a few ancient works the first two The medievalist in me wants to post The Problem With Feudalism the Feudalism was once considered the prevailing social system of medieval But most medievalists BY MELISSA SNELL That how do ethically and really distinguish a serf from a for I feel like I should work feudalism into a conversation with Noone already got him to rant about how only paleographers can determine what Aquinas really So like the people on earth that can read his handwriting have some Only about from what heard worse than you have to have read all the manuscript sources to really understand what Thomas Is Noone a basically nobody really understands Alexander of Guibert of Tournai Probably Reginald back in the said that explicitly about says what about for him and for most understanding what Thomas thinks presupposes that you know who Thomas is responding to every time Thomas takes a Noone has said that Noone thinks no one almost no understands doctrine of Noone is resident but this a particularly Scotistic The acclaimed Gauthier edited the Leonine edition of the commentary on seems to have thought something No but he sounds like an impossible And I suppose you need to under who they were responding and so on ad or until we hit the point that we a because we have every etc down In it seems to be the general position of the real So their position is that they have a clue what Thomas actually because we know they do not have some hidden gnosis unavailable to everyone and their demand is impossible in I think his position is a characteristic error of Just like there are certain opinions about music that are characteristic errors of To overexalt their in my experience experts generally treat their area of expertise as the Master Does Noone himself claim to understand said I think his general position is that Aquinas seen all the difficulties and questions needed to resolve the And that Aquinas is usually too ambiguous on key points to be understood through mere consultation of his Another example of this we had a literature professor give a lecture at TAC In the he explicitly said that the study of literature should direct all the other It was kinda Ah the he have a he answered every possible objection Noone is really amazing in terms of the extent of his reading and what he knows about the history and positions various medievals kinda natural for a Scotist to take that it fault that historians write great read Livy and tell me that I think that was write great I kid I Mostly what Ed IDK got a great history of the years war that came out relatively recently But to go to what point can be made from what Noone says if you want to understand great books one must turn to great that TAC bends the stick the other way to break students free from rampant but after the beginning it provides one really needs to know context if one wants to truly understand the meaning of those great and not so great old but the necessity of context for philosophy is pretty minimal My is that if Thomas think he needed to mention his sources and footnote to be why should we need to read those I thought Ramachandra history of modern india was quite this comment was meant to be after If yes if if context is for a study of philosophy then why does TAC seminar the bulk of the philosophy proceed Perhaps because TAC intend to teach philosophy in I call it Great errors arise comes from ignoring Thomas writing for people centuries from his If talking about the he was writing a textbook for advanced So no But he wrote what he did in the midst of very heated battles I would hope that in grad school one dug into them for the sake of fully understanding Teaching philosophy ahistorically is an error to some Someone like Locke is a good case in You can make Locke look like a number of different things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware Is it possible to understand first critique independent of Newton and British Teaching in is only teaching philosophy per Even Aristotle places himself contextually by citing all the presocratics I grant that philosophy itself is not per se historical but it is conducted by human beings who live in time and place and communicate within that time and place with the language When they intend to teach philosophy in the philosophy they proceed according to the ordo But Aristotle makes his own writing historical and contextual by citing his predecessors to understand what his philosophical project is he thinks it is important to place it in at least in the of procedure in citing predecessors is he generally mentions them in the context of laying out the possible positions on some In even if all those philosophers were the Aristotelian text would still make sense because the important thing is the position rather than the not against the history of philosophy per Especially when people realize that doing such history just a matter of listing position on a given it gets tiresome when medievalists prevent one from doing philosophy in the medieval they want you to write monographs about Quaestiones Disputatae rather than writing your very own commentary on the The historicism currently rampant often treats medieval philosophy as a dead school of Not even Duane Berquist audio will make Aurelia sleep Interesting that the best old historians are little grasped or i should say appreciated by Their inquiries and investigation transcend their Aristotle observed that poetry was superior to history because of its universal not talking the of but it is important to study chronologically because the ideas as you put are usually a response to someone especially more so from the medievals The recent project to historicize philosophy is an attempt to particularize the If one step away and look at poetry many of the great poets require not much historical context to was part of project to historize all disciplines and we pretty much all lined up like docile ants to contribute our own But is Plato understandable without volumes of Is Aquinas so it a presumption against the possibility of what he is that why Catherine on this thread there a pretty good transition from British Empiricist Kant Hegel etc the position I at least for the do we even bother to study all the figures in the British Empiricist I actually have a historical theory of error If one is setting up a position simply for setting up a not because someone held that that what we call been thinking about two souls in one body theory of a straw man is also an intentionally weak Anyone want to hear a defense of his Heretic heresy Unlike I do not deny my heresy Go it ok if I just call you Sam Cohoe to you a straw man if setting up a position no one holds specifically to refute I think the problem we all had with his position is that we basically have an Aristotelian understanding of the and see how a body can have two forms apply to people who went to school with my your Jonathan and Henry what if we say that there was divine such that both souls simultaneously act as form of the matter in exactly the same who did you  this seriously ad But there seem to be a solution to the problem that seriously ad Other than ensoulment taking place which has its own problems I think that defense might involve a Mor  why does later ensoulment cause problems I think that is Even if we took a faulty Scotis of multiple substantial forms in one they are still conatined by the higher If they both act the same I think that is just It is also because one would basically have to hold that forseeing the prepares for it by cramming two souls but twinning really does seem to be a natural process of and is potential in any does every zygote have an indefinite number of It just seems like a huge does seem asdhic toddler attack I agree with you and wrt old historians they were not about the mere chronicle of deeds and Why did Herodotus They were more universal in their aims than many contemporary There is biological organism from If it have a rational what sort of organism is Is it still I maybe not a huge but it seems strange to But not entirely clear on what the later ensoulment view entails Just to not sure that pluriformist view is actually from what it seems closer to the view of elemental presence Aquinas lays out in De Mixtione Elementorum than a your second paragraph seems I understand your first on further why would it be problematic to assert that God foresees every aspect of twinning and provides an extra Other than the ad hoc For the second soul to inform the the matter would have to retain the potency to form in the way it had it prior to But that would imply that there were two matters in the in addition to the proximate matter and there would be this unchangeable remote matter that just kinda sat But that just the way matter One matter is relative to as the more universal form stands to the less universal form so the remote matter stands to the proximate but the more universal form the form of does not stand to the less universal form the form of as one form two another but rather as two aspects of the same So the more remote matter does not stand to the more proximate matter as two matters but rather as the same matter considered in two different I think Joshua nailed Does God foresee the twinning or etc and stuff in X number of souls It certainly seems more like twinning is a natural potential of so is being conceived a natural potential of human But we still think God has to an immortal after the matter in the man retain the potency to the soul of man in the way it did before hand as cannot be by a form of the same put the kids to bed and had a Your last two seem like gibberish to They might so is being conceived a natural potential of human But we still think God has to an immortal is this what we This ensoulment talk has me view of for purely confused the hell out of I I follow but it does seem ad hoc and a the other views of ensoulment of which aware seem even I see confusing about The hey presto creation ex nihilo is awfully absolutely Only God can create an since if something lower could create an that intellect would be perfectly satisfied by contemplation of that lower And beatitude be the beatific I convinced by But it sit Like I it follows from things I think have to be and every other explanation seems even but the difference between saying that God put two souls in one zygote knowing that there would be a and saying that God puts an immortal soul in a sufficiently developed Am I getting the ensoulment view Because matter must be proportioned to I reject your argument Only on the order of grace are humans called to the beatific But this lower thing that the intellect creates a matter that is only able to exist as an In other words the matter of man not must be rationally Get out of here with your nouvelle  In twinning the soul splits in Twins have strange Mysterious Far more we cant know than can and both outstrip by light years what we think we you misspelled de pretty sure NOT what we want to say also straight out of The soul intrinsically change in that Do you think that we desire to know God by our his essence that is Aquinas implies that in some sense in ST Somebody tell me about Where is He bloody well does But they are I have heard many Some from  enim ultima hominis beatitudo in altissima eius operatione quae est operatio si nunquam essentiam Dei videre potest intellectus vel nunquam beatitudinem vel in alio eius beatitudo consistet quam in Quod est alienum a In ipso enim est ultima perfectio rationalis quia est ei principium intantum enim unumquodque perfectum inquantum ad suum principium Similiter etiam est praeter Inest enim homini naturale desiderium cognoscendi cum intuetur et ex hoc admiratio in hominibus Si igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam remanebit inane desiderium Unde simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam  You think the of is on the order of igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam remanebit inane desiderium we naturally desire to know God simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam To jump waaaay Matthew Peterson can make Locke look like a number of different things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware One can even make Locke look like he agrees with Interesting about That happens with Interpreting into texts is a modern We simply dont try hard enough to understand what an author compounded by the problem that many dont know what they mean as far as the ensoulment problem I see how one can rationally take another take than delayed From what we of human generation it seems a huge waste of rational souls to create so many that will never Optiz on the bioethics counsel testified that between and of naturally conceived human embryos get thrown out with the monthly If they are and suffer the stain of original then God appears a bit not asking anyone to gird up their loins like a but how does this make any sense if fertilization ensoulment Good Good I am at a It is a mystery but God is I dont worry about matters so hidden to not sure who makes Locke look like he agrees with sure whomever it was was at TAC Matt I thought that was a reference to the Lockistotle dustup No kidding John funny how these scholars of Aristotle jump right over his errors and head straight to the modern eugenic scientist for explanations about the human They do dogmatic The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception might be something they keep in a shoe box but they certainly study ahh but Strauss on the other hand MP dicendum quod impossibile est quod aliquis intellectus creatus per sua naturalia essentiam Dei intellectus noster vel quia secundum naturam a materia aliqualiter elevatus potest ultra suam naturam per gratiam ad aliquid altius ad Nouvelle Theologie the question could a created intellect have perfect beatitude in attainment of something less than what do you make of de veritate q est bonum hominis naturae humanae proportionem quia ad ipsum obtinendum vires naturales non nec etiam ad cognoscendum vel sed ex sola divina liberalitate homini what nature God By nature we cannot attain our natural Was it so in To the previous I am not sure I understand the you are aware that there is a science of living and that science is called And it makes the faithful look like absolute jackasses if they understand it and speak in enthymemetic Scott it is easy to talk but less easy define which you have failed to do in any meaningful still nct convinced that the IC requires us to say what everything you want us not exactly sure what you take the dogma to gnosis there are a few things that are clear in human there is fertilization there is ensoulment the first is a biological the after that you lose me Especially since uncritical defense of the IC could result in saying that Mary need the Passion to be that and uncritical defense of various poorly understood things leads one to being a flat Do we have pictures of Scott in a tinfoil depends what you mean by before the rational soul there is already a vegetative soul and probably a sensitive on the hypothesis of delayed Human drive in a way to truly irritate me ALL THE At both vegetative and sensitive souls are both the kinds of things that are proportioned to natural causes while the rational soul requires a divine referring to as that point in time in the development that a rational soul is placed in hate as a philsophic see above runs the risk of sounding But I agree that is pure as regards or sperm have DNA and are they living or parts of something  I see any reason to deny view that the sperm is an instrument of the I think that means it is a living what would a animal soul be purpose is to dispose the egg to receiving a human living is said there think except in the way is equivocal between animals and we could ask similar questions about the otherwise petri dish fertilization be possible I think the accounts of both are parallel actually necessarily contradict at least if one abstracts from niggling details I agree that they are but not sure that account gives us the proper It has to be in some But not in the way a complete living thing which reproduces others of its what does that Have you read Generation of I think position is defensible in the been a a form similar to what a separately existing human cell but different I suppose  the transitional forms in generation are intrinsically ordered to the final Edward mean if a skin cell was kept alive in a petri what form would it The form in the separated of itself will not  Was there a lockistotle dust up in these What precipitated with the sperm and the My biology may be but they really have the nutritive faculty once been do way to change the subject I think you shared Seagrave or someone talking about how political philosophy is compatible with Aristotelianism what does even mean with regard to the sperm and egg have to have the nutritive faculty in some because their nature is to cause something human to come to other than creature that eat hi And then threw a fit when it was was taught by He was taught by you think he already understands your feeble cells eat they take in sugar and give off other sort of Mostly it is about the Your own motto is be after They also regenerate things similar in kind through cell The other part of the nutritive sort of no about was thinking what Edward was Most not cells can take in nutrition from the Certainly living things considered as whole organisms Sperm and egg until the egg gets fertilized and there is a if talking about parts of a But they participate in a higher faculty of the nutritive otherwise you go from zygote to animal with distinct parts the cells are of different types from the beginning sort of That what I was thinking I was thinking of skin cells reproducing to form skin And I was thinking of them existing separately from the why talking about cells opens a huge can of How do you get from to skin muscle heart The problem is that microbiology is posterior to macrobiology in the order of fair I think we necessarily disagree Stem cells seems to be more like equivocal so saith DeChronic Which are the instruments of the soul to form all the parts of the instruments that possess the higher functions of nutritive or do they only possess them in virtue of being a part of that thing that has an animal or Aurelia finally succumbed to sleep inducing I fear I will follow not far Of his voice is sleep inducing because it is They only possess them in virtue of being parts because they have proper forms while being opium Joel when their retain the ability to main existence for some Especially if aided by so a cell that is part of an animal have a proper but if we separate it then it gets a voice is classified by the DEA as a class I I suffered through junior theo and soph I  sounds a little like a dodge I object to cartoon objections he claim Lockistotle perhaps one might argue that what he says amounts to such if one grapples with his People were laying out the ridiculous jump to conclusions mat that bringing out objections that only an idiot would never have regardless of whether or not one agrees with his But such is the your complicated book gets summarized in an article and then the article gets posted and then people make comments based on the But the Lockistotle debate is usually had in other I finished my and thus far they say it will be published later this I think its a when I say I mean the form really maintain existence in the way a form but if aided by how does it continue except by virtue of its own form people read the article and found it unconvincing for obvious reasons and it pissed you off you want everyone to cheer wildly for so that we a backwater I I know bugger so take what I say but if the objections were so handily you could have engaged with their I not trying to be difficult but all this applies to human generation and ultimately what we understand when we profess the dogma of the IC I do admit that the book may very well have been probably more That make the article more Going waaaay I know about the with original aspect of the but I think a very solid argument against personhood from conception to point out the high percentage of early only very recently that the majority of children survived Do we say that makes God a seems like an analogous The reason I call it a is not because it acts like a real form nor because it a real form some value of but because it the form of a being complete in the headline was juicy though children who died the were typically that happen to four cells that leave with the menstrual cycle Are commentaries on the summa available yes in Millions of children have died unbaptized not sure your objection changes the just the Editio Leonina ENRIQUE ALARCÓN Thanks but if the smaller die before the fertilized egg that means much much more than any infant mortality If you think that infant mortality is this is times that many Why would abortifacient contraception be wrong in the early stages Prior to full realize this a real argument assuming what I should be Because of the dignity of human Thanks now I had to delete my long winded reply All the transitional beings are human No saying there is already a number that is impossible to accept so the problem has to be dealt with whether we posit of ensouled persons being miscarried or no How does this not reduce to the Sperm is I see a problem with that which claim sperm is What That the sperm are little homonculi that be killed on any not like I think that moral to use sperm for something besides why does this always degenerate into NFP not my fault this time funny the path this particular conversation took Church dogma arguments about ensoulment sex The NFP at was a forthright conversation about Innate natural now the conversation is getting all meta still get neither do I I think the rest of them do either pretending as a got CANON any one that baptism is that not necessary unto let him be been trying to explain this to you Only James Brown can truly tell us what ensoulment which is hard to reconcile with more than half of people not getting the chance to be which is why I think delayed ensoulment is the more rational choice you do some kind of baptism of desire heard Catholics make a lot of hay with baptism of desire I think in the all not going to dig up the but the comments and objections were ASSume ridiculously and not worth responding It clear from the article what his or whether or not it was but it was clear he was well aware of the objections made by people with far less professional interaction with said objections than got under his That still leaves all the out in the I China still largely been just for one Baptism happens in three through water If a catechumen dies while intending to become a Christian If a catechumen is The latter two are of and of Not being a I can just be all trust No need to worry about unbaptized But the chatechism mentions that who sincerely seek God and try to do his will may be Or something like Agreeing with Seagrave of TAC and ND on the public discourse is not going to change our backwater I cheer for people out in the ring wrestling with ideas I still think the jury will be out for a while for me as as people argue with him more over time and forced to deal with I think God is limited to the sacramental got soul and James Brown SUPER BAD Brand New for educational purposes only Seagrave the one that argued that our common experience rules out Evolution and the Eye Test evolutionary theory rests on a problematic Our senses tell us the truth about I a little more nuanced than The Catechism mentions but then you have dozens of much more magisterial such as the one Beitia quoted saying baptism and the Catholic church are necessary and exclusive means of but the difficulty is interpreting what Baptism of Desire comes from the and Baptism of Blood is implied by the feast of the Holy none of whom were Yah profoundly disagree with that But I look forward to Joel HF review of my If just means the conferral of sanctifying grace ordinarily occurs through the sacramental then there is no problem affirming the Canon Beitia the money some serious notably and that all of our knowledge of the world comes initially through our Baptism of desire and blood are surely the teaching of the church jest The Catechism gets into more controversial Not that the CCC is just that the very this is still open for expose your esoteric teaching to the harsh light of Peterson The point is if God in certain circumstances saves people using the sacramental not unreasonable to hope that he saves others using the sacramental I think it parallels the way ecclesiam nulla has been a very closely related yuuuup the treatment of the Feeneyites indicates that that doctrine is to be interpreted in terms of the all the blah blah sentimentalist garbage blah blah rigorist Remember when the NYT was publishing articles about how limbo would be abolished any day the canon says baptism is do you mean by the canon rule out either baptism of blood or baptism of in heaven but Hitler and all good kinda funny how my various conversations on Facebook relate A week or so I was arguing against universalism and now being accused of Ecclesiam Nulla depends on what you mean by we are church every religion is also church But the Catholic Church has always affirmed the validity of Orthodox and Christian Baptisms as long as the form and matter are atheism if lived also church at the very baptism is with the church To put aside my what has that to do with So there must be a distinction between the visible church and the invisible baptism is with the The church has no authority over the what is the All the validly Whether Roman Protestant or I think the distinction the visible and invisible church Read Unam Sanctam again does have a lot of meanings People who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by or or are decidedly not the At not as I ever heard the term like taking the Thomas article about the demons being subject to the kingship of Christ as saying that they are part of the church setting aside those that are separate due to my definition is more or less to personal I think going to bow out Good What to quote but the difficulty is interpreting what Good The definition I just gave the invisible church is all the baptized who have not separated themself through personal All that are validly baptized are part of the church then why did you object who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by or or schism the living are still is my main objection Church militant triumphant suffering is a different division from the one laying As it has to do with their public connection to the Roman Catholic however the words are what I said still ecclesiam nulla does not mean those who die in a state of grace who claim to belong to the Roman Catholic Church are It means validly baptized who dies in a state of grace is It a division heard from Catholics not as you are using But your point about the validity baptisms of and by people the church considers heretics is accepted by I And at the very can refer to the ordinary baptism of water and the extraordinary baptisms of blood and invisible those in sanctifying grace visible all baptized Catholic pew warmers I might be misremembering the Baltimore but I kinda remember a picture of a boat with little ropes hanging off of but the old understanding of that would be that if an infant was baptized by he belong to the  so do And I have some I just think people are too quick to have this idea that everybody is saved without struggling with the fact that for much of history this view would have been decidedly not a mainstream catholic depends on whether talking about the mainstream of the mainstream not what what saying is that there is space in Catholic doctrine for and unbaptized infants to receive sanctifying   Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying how could an unbaptized infant receive sanctifying grace How did the Holy Innocents receive sanctifying Old law I think that it may be possible that where the parents desired to have the infant baptized with the same desire that a catechuman had they plan on doing it but as soon as humanly then that desire can stand in place for the Just as the answers stand in place of the infants at the actual But open to correction and think this is officially taught circituitous not why venerated as more If any one that newly born from their even though they be sprung from baptized are to be or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of but that they derive nothing of original sin from which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life it follows as a that in them the form of for the remission of is understood to be not but him be Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying How is getting saved sanctifying it need by still old law misreading that not a statement about the necessity of sanctifying grace but a denial of a universal grant of sanctifying do think that it is Church teaching not de then close to that the baptism of blood is sufficient for a firm baptism of though this is taught That canon of Trent is beside the as far as I can you said anathema sit I I meant baptized in the ordinary what does that even have water move over their are they baptized with the CCC is decidedly regards children who have died without the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of as she does in her funeral rites for the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be and tenderness toward children which caused him to the children come to do not hinder allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without All the more urgent is the call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy they could receive the baptism of blood Iff martyred Unbaptized infants CATHOLIC Baptism One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian frequently called the the of the and the of the not trying to be any more definite than the CCC CCC is not de fide Never said it It still is an authority owed submission of intellect and as promulgated by the Holy I was responding to Joel Michael I said that like comments I was just pointing out that it was also hardly clear on the invisible Joan of arc visible those who condemned her of the cases where it clashes other church doctrine also owed religious we see that sometimes God gives sanctifying grace even though the person baptized with it is not a matter of doctrine that baptism of water is necessary in every possible that and infants who never received the baptism of water somehow receive an extraordinary grant of say the newer document supercedes guess that Kenz or someone has a more definitive  walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on They have taken away the visible broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find CCC only recommemds That is does that have the assent of  Up a quote  newer can never contradict older document and must be interpreted as such only if both are de or if the older document is de if they are both matters for submission of intellect and then they can be in In which argue that the newer document Edward is Baptism by desire and blood are all If a catechuman on his way to the Easter Vigil is struck by a and you believe he will end up in hell because he was not baptized by that is not a Catholic God is not bound by the although they are His ordinary means of In the case of infant it is the Faith of the parents that brings the child to baptism is why it is licit for a Pastor to refuse baptism to a child if he is convinced the parents will not bring the child up in the There was actually a commission looking into the question of baptism of desire parents who suffer a tragic since their Faith brings the child to the and they were only impeded from administering it by the flesh which was in the way could baptism of desire I think it is a great but I think it will be answered with much more than really know but we entrust the child to the mercy of knowing His love is greater even than the love of the unam de fide again trent de fide again Lateran IV de fide the quote I just posted de fide As far as your quote from an not really sure about their I think that they are not necessarily part of the infallible teaching authority of the Again reread the It recommends nothing to only Which is all the more reason that it be an argument stopper in this your example is Which none of the quotes posted contradicts my position in any meaningful they just place limits on the circumstances in which my claims catechuman on the way to that is the most of possible examples But its Edward did you get the church The way you were using it seems much more like a protestant understanding to Ambrose references baptism of desire in connection with a catechumen who died in a but unhelpful because of the nature a hazy recollection of the Baltimore you reject the doctrine of baptism by in that exemplar How is it Water is not and a stretch to go from that to unbaptized simply But I think demonstrated that it follows from admitted yes it is I missed the An infant does not consent to The parents So much so that if the parent does not have the child is not This is standard pastoral CANON any one that true and natural water is not of necessity for on that to some sort of those words of our Lord Jesus Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy let him be YES IT IS How does that jibe with the long acceptance of baptism by blood and baptism of canons de See Translation to be not denying the that others may receive the gift of sanctifying but as John Ruplinger put it a not a believe I see now why you think my example is Because you want to believe that God is but understanding of them may not be de read canon out loud to yourself I think you have to accept the minimal cases of a chatechumen martyred for the and also killed on the way to But too lazy to go look up the I think that admission means that we hold the same you universalist leaning people want to make exceptions into rules I explicitly denied that it was a then why talk about I think it is bad for evangelization show of for one sounding about Baptism good for evangelization It means I actually care about Langley with Langley good So who else besides me me At converted in yes one thing to be clear about Church another thing to present the doctrine in a way that conveys the impression that we know what happens to people who received Baptism of is that know or know You are now claiming that the Catholic Church does not care about since baptism of desire and blood are both mentioned in the Universal no that was a response to previous I made no such claims So why the Church baptize a child whose parents have no Ok really odd case is the little boy Pius IX took from his jewish parents because he had been I really know all the or even if it actually but an example that always gets brought up in similar Edgardo Mortara the free encyclopedia Edgardo Levi Mortara Papal August Pius adopted hard cases make bad Now stealing my You should read Thomas Pink on religious Hard cases help us understand i might be pissed if i went to hell when folks were so nice Both are sides are but a general rule that hard cases should be left to the prudence rather than codified in The preaching must fit the preached without however What I am saying is that a homosexual activist couple who despise the Church but approach for baptism for their child to a parish near would be denied while the Church was examining the possibility that the daily Mass going parents who suffer a miscarriage after excruciating weeks of bedrest may have obtained baptism by desire and that seems utterly reasonable to I was once smashed over the head by a priest it I am forever grateful to  Michael you misunderstand the anathema statement It is speaking of sacramental If you read it in that nothing that has been said about baptism of desire or blood is  I base that on my knowledge as an RCIA We jus do not know what happens to unbaptized Never We do know that God is all just and Trust He knows what He is  Marie makes a good If the reason we baptize infants in the first place is because of the then it much of a leap to say they also benefit from baptism of desire least in the case of children of parents of  But you are right to say we know but that is speculation and not That is my what is  By blood and They are outside of the You are all full circle  Because we are discussing theology on a Friday Oh I was baptized as an infant by my fallen away Catholic parents and raised as an I converted in at the age of I am very glad I was baptized because I believe that the graces I received led me back to the I realize that this is but the TNET is the only thing got going at the When an infant is he or she cannot personally make a profession of at that the parents and the Church as a whole provide a context of faith for the sacramental St Augustine teaches that it is the Church that presents a child for The Church professes her faith and intercedes powerfully for the supplying the act of faith that the infant is unable to again the bonds of both natural and are operative and If an unbaptised infant is incapable of a votum then by the same bonds of communion the Church might be able to intercede for the infant and express a votum baptismi on his or her behalf that is effective before the Church effectively does express in her liturgy just such a votum by the very charity towards all that is renewed in her in every celebration of the de  What a blessing that you see it that way believe it to be But many are upset they celebrate the sacrament with their new They just get how without the grace latent in it might not have ever come to   What articles are de fide to you CCC  Or was that clarified No the study I was talking about that was taking place when I was in grad and it was closely related to our study of Thomas on the so we looked at We can agree that an infant does not make a personal profession of of with a caveat  CCC is certainly the teaching tradition of the Catholic It be dismissed so if it is at odds with de fide  where  I have a wedding program to print and fold  Where is the CCC at odds with de fide TNET admits of no other hobbies Daniel Lendman et al re the earlier convo about top tier The Trouble With Harvard The Ivy League is broken and only standardized tests can fix  And need to quote both the CCC article and the de fide statement it is you reject I Shouts the day old it but I find quoting of CCC to support positions that contradict etc etc years ago I heard about that It has been discussed for Limbo for Trust that God really is good and it is all It is about Faith in  Why did the Vatican publish the  To be optional beats  That was an invitation to read the busy with TNET I had all my babies baptized within a week of being born Teresa was baptized by Jeremy in the hospital because she was in danger of really not a and easy with baptism or kinda but I know that it is the parents who reject and all his empty and the glamour of on their my oldest was baptized in an NICU they did it to taunt TAC grads who they secretly know are holier and wiser than they  This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic as regards both faith and in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Its principal sources are the Sacred the Fathers of the the and the It is intended to serve a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various This work is intended primarily for those responsible for first of all the as teachers of the faith and pastors of the It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of Through the it is addressed to redactors of to and to It will also be useful reading for all other Christian Also find the part which says it should be considered the I profess to be holier or wiser than anyone I I thought that was a shot across my bow I am a displaced The Trent Catechism speaks better to my unupdated mode of hard to tell when the TNET is ready for goofing around  But the Church is a breathing One must be with the current flow of Pope John Paul II ordered the publication of the Catechism by the Apostolic Fidei on October An apostolic constitution is a most solemn form by which popes promulgate official Church The new Code of Canon for was promulgated by the Apostolic Sacrae Disciplinae In Fidei Pope John Paul II Catechism of the Catholic which I approved June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic is a statement of the faith and of catholic attested to or illumined by Sacred the Apostolic and the I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial John Paul II also stated that the Catechism given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic goofing around and seriousness are one on TNET  This thread have gotten this far without a little of both off and My rule of thumb is goofing around is appropriate if that Scott guy Peace out all I now that I have my drink What is the longest break between comments ever on Is there a TNET archivist who can look this  I worry if it goes over comments generally not advisable to discern sacred Catholic mysteries without a trained or to mix that subject with goofing on social So how many points is Michigan going to beat Notre Dame by tomorrow The CCC was written to present organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic as regards both faith and in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Just started the Trent Catechism months Aint And it does have more in it Are you suggesting it is in I think eighteen Aaron that was the longest before Above the CCC was published in support of the Pastoral principle of whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never Whether something is proposed for for hope or for the love of our Lord must always be made so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at By what authority was it I do not think ensoulment is a doctrine of the Has anyone read the Trent referred to it but I read it Parts of I recall it has something of the same structure as the the but I could be Delving into dogmatic theology I find is more satisfying than the to my It ties in philosophy and in a sense shows you the mind of the Good Daniel we allow that kind of blasphemy on this Only the Catholic kind of No gold blue Hail to the it going Michigan vs Notre Dame Last Incredible Michigan win had enough of your crap for the going to thank you for the I thought it well balanced and Jeff  I remember that bs generous spot off that qb Haha that was Interesting Another interesting Relevant to the ensoulment one of those provocative Bolin And Man Became a Living Google Drive position is a rather extreme form of my Thanks I got through pages before I press the next page button on my have to read it on a I like his approach but I reached a point where there is a clear statement that in generation whether ensoulment is necessitated by the arrangement of I believe I missed being in class with a I think there were three there representing three different classes my Junior been keeping track of you via my spy I came across a copy of the monthly budget of Scott Fitzgerald and his wife Zelda from their Paris It has three interesting line Flowers Wild Could we plot these items on a graph to show the relationship between leisure and wild Are flowers a Probably Peter I wonder what the Dominican or position is on It seems to me there is no Catholic doctrine on but there is on the Immaculate Is this I also find it disturbing when human cloning is used to support the of ensoulment this seems imprudent because it cites unethical science to support a theory in so serves as a kind of support for unethical human it support for unethical more than a recognition that unethical science exists and forces us to reconsider the metaphysical implications of the physical world around in this case I think any Catholic on this thread would deny the dogma of the Immaculate but the Church in her wisdom set exact because this is a spiritual not one of biology Pater I am not sure if you had the chance to see the previous citation on human cloning posted by Edward but the gist of the article was that a natural identical twin and a human clone were the same Do you think this and the way it was forced consideration of metaphysical implcations of or had any bearing on the or would you regard it as Thomas often cites unethical but to refute them in classical dialectic I am not sure how capable some TAC alum are of discussing these The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that the Blessed Virgin from first of her there does clearly seem to be a direct reference to time in the John at long last is a response to your fascinating posts on Virgil many days apologize for taking so long to but the start of school has kept me away from the Great You asked the following questions about sacrifice of he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in name to FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to future Rome that will I would agree with the last two and especially with what you state immediately after your series of put it Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom prince captive and chief to his father and the But you and I would appear to differ concerning the justice of this I think Virgil wholeheartedly approves of whereas you argue that he may have had grave Concerning the phrase that describes founding the planting of his sword in Turnus adverso sub pectore we both I that it refers to the opening lines conderet and duty to found But why sub There is a line in the last book of the Aeneid that may help make sense of When Virgil presents us with the alternating scenes of and deeds which culminate in their fateful Virgil recounts the death of Rutulian who is killed when Aeneas his naked sword there where the end is right through the the grating of the Virgil had earlier in Book X described killing of Liger as with his he opened in which the spirit has its hiding Aeneaus gives Turnus the quickest suggesting it is not about personal revenge driven by that Aeneas is employing what Virgil has earlier called sword that deals out Given reference to the place where the spirit I would agree with your suggestion that Aeneas is also slaying the spirit of though you and I may disagree about what that spirit Certainly anger is intense when he slays but it seems to me to be depiction of the pious anger that accompanied The we both comes upon Aeneas when he sees the belt of Here I think your analysis is missing a key Depicted on the belt of Pallas is not the slaughter of just any fifty The crucial passage that reveals the identity of these youths comes from Book II when the fall of Troy is I myself saw insane with and both of sons upon the I saw Hecuba together with her hundred and among the altars I could see King polluting with his blood the fires he himself had And the fifty bridal chambers that had such hopes of sons of the doors that once had stood so proud with booty and with barbaric gold lie on the What fire cannot the Danaans The fifty youths depicted on the belt of Pallas are the future of that the future of And note that it is the son of who commits this outrage and who is later resurrected as Turnus the new who hubristically bears on his very person this horror of horrors as a trophy of For the personal glory of such as is reaches its nadir in the evil act of his but for the will of would have ended Rome before it Roman which you rightly point out is advocated by father as the future policy of Roman cannot be exercised here toward Turnus whose wearing of this belt signifies all that would stand in the way of plan to establish the right order of eternal That is all I can address for but hopefully some of the above will be worth your In other I do not think Thomas would have cited unethical research on human cloning to score a cheap contentious point for flawed view of though Thomas and the Dominicans did deny the Immaculate Conception because of their doctrine of Out of I would not use the wording of dogma of the IM to ignore the topic of I know you do not like dogma at but that is which leads to a corruption of faith and I introduced the as the Dogma of the Immaculate because it is worthy of not so that others would bring up human cloning to support the claim that ensoulment is Is it also not true that Thomas erred in this Dogma due to his adherence to notion of That is Interesting that the depiction is not I will certainly concede that the poet is at least Still detach it as a foreshadowing of Thanks Bolins do have an elegant manner of asserting provocative who are we to refuse that cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes necessitate that they be ethically as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and but that justify the That reference makes more you were using human cloning to support ensoulment which is a cheap no one knows human cloning and identical are the In is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from you do not know what you are talking argument And your arguments here are inappropriate to the dignity of church in a hundred people who argue like you might be cited as second Galileo Unless I am missing several  Whatever you Talk to you sophists and gnostics Which argument that concluded with you not knowing what you are talking about Your contention that he should be associated with something like second Galileo I am interested in knowing why this would be the no one knows human cloning and identical are the In is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from Why we know Pardon me if I am a victim of This seems like a reasonable argument to cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes necessitate that they be ethically as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and but that justify the I think it Thomas always is concerned about the irrisio infidelium and Augustine shows us how important it is to show the complementarity of doctrine and natural It sounds like you are supporting theory of ensoulment because human clones and identical twins are the This is Facts are stubborn Mary was free from Original Sin body and soul from the of her Thomas opposed this dogma because of notion of Cell replication and twinning are surprisingly When one results in more cells separate being is a wonderful topic for I am not sure that that account of rejection of the IC is But let it for does the account of conception necessarily align with a biological Mary was free from Original Sin from the moment of her In her not calling something laughable reasoning conceived without pray for us who have recourse to are you being intentionally the definition of conception something worth I cannot imagine that even you would claim in jest that Mother of was Immaculately Conceived only in her but not Her If this is what you are you are in and I sincerely urge in good as a brother in Our to seek counsel from a holy priest on this Only the soul suffered in the not the  I I wrote something to the effect that fertilization is the biological act whereby the two gametes become one whereas conception is the activity of God in each particular creation Sure it is Scott is right to say that the effects of original sin affected both soul and  just the soul CATHOLIC Immaculate Conception In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary the first instance of her by a singular privilege and grace granted by in view of the merits of Jesus the Saviour of the human was preserved Because persons not Prayer of the Novena of the Immaculate Conception Immaculate Virgin you were pleasing in the sight of God from the first moment of your conception in the womb of your You were chose to be the mother of Jesus the Son of I believe the teaching of holy Mother the that in the first instant of your by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty in virtue of the merits of Jesus Savior of the human and beloved you were preserved from all stain of original I thank God for this wonderful privilege and grace he bestowed upon you as I honor your Immaculate Look graciously upon me as I implore this special your Virgin Mother of God and my from your throne in heaven turn your eyes of pity upon Filled with confidence in your goodness and I beg you to help me in this journey of life which is so full of dangers for my I entrust myself entirely to that I may never be the slave of the devil through but may always live a humble and pure I consecrate myself to you for my only desire is to love your divine Son since none of your devout servants has May I too be then why do you Spiritually or Wait pardon How do you account for the Blessed perpetual virginity after and miraculous birth if sin somehow tainted her I was speaking of Because we are not aveternal physical death is in our nature She suffered the effects of the hunger pain etc I think anyone was saying that sin tainted the  Man was not supposed to What is Michael saying by man came That by Animals suffer but they did not suffer the pain is essential in bodily function saying the BVM got Pain existed prior to the fall and was sad sometimes And she could feel pain And suffer  But not because of sin in her Christ could feel pain too No you said she was free from original sin in her not her body Of course Christ could feel No one is arguing against We are talking about the effects of original Then the fall was not this does not deny that miraculous acts may happen  I know what you are My point is that persons not Persons are body and Mary was preserved from body and subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her yes what I What I mean is that She was preserved from original it taken Her soul suffer the effects of original but her body it is The Church teaches both that all of creation fell in some and that though Mary and Jesus were without sin in body and they suffered the effects of a fallen Pain in Unfallen in a fallen I was saying that the body does not suffer in the fall it Yup totally natural to have pain   No no Virgin All I know is that she was virgin perpetually light through I argue for pain and all existed prefall  But death for humans certainly only came through the I like to believe physics pre and post fall are the same Rational souls are immortal and joined to bodies Dogma of perpetual virginity virgin before DURING and after Christ passed through her miraculously like light through Spiritual death death are you denying that the BVM suffered Yup I believe physical death would have occurred if the fall at any That which has a beginning has an end I am pretty sure that position is At any time accidents happen Joshua Do you I am saying that pain in childbirth is one of the curses of the Fall as is See Genesis And it is a dogma that Mary bore Christ miraculously that she maintained her virginity during and after If any one does not confess that the first when he had transgressed the commandment of God in immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been and that he through the offence of that the wrath and indignation of and consequently with which God had previously threatened together with captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of that is to the and that the entire through that offence of was in body and for the let him be but giving birth the same as intercourse Where is that How since death is necessary all things that start that the fall was necessary and since it is not possible to exist perpetually    Correct it is She remained during normal Genesis is not to be read literally It is possible to exist Just as my soul and the Blessed Jeff I know how to read not nor have I on this said that the birth of Christ was like the birth of mine or your If to be read you the first several chapters are not to be read as though a precise then we are but the BVM suffered the effects of original in the in her She got and I read the first several chapters of Genesis literally as in the genre of Is her existence now the same as it was on I think Marie and I are just trying to make sure that we are clear that the origin of her bodily suffering is not through of course not Does Mary have a metabolism existence now is a glorified If she wants Christ ate and bread after he was in his glorified Mary could She just need Could or needs Being glorified and Ah  As I before the fall did we need to  We did need to Data is nt infinitely fast forgive slow replys what Who cares if Mary had an intact Before the fall man was not Through Christ we are I Samantha Genesis is not technically the language is It further reveals something about her virginity and the birth of I would consider it in the genre of somebody bust out some Augustine  I would also consider it Fair  not The Catechism is explicit in that find the If by myth one means something that is inherently not then  irrelevant to her virginity and makes the birth of Christ cartoonish If by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or using figures and images in order to explain the current state of then yes it is in the genre of What is Ancients considered an intact hymen to be essential to This nonsense you call it But I see why it must be Or Well that is Certainly Christ had the power to pass through material Without disrupting said Chapter and of that work by Let it nourish your but try to replace He also chooses to under the appearance of Without Catholicism is With it is Augustine speculating on Genesis by his Scott was right when he said that the BVM was immaculately conceived in soul and She was conceived that as a Thus the Church has Genesis is For example the use of the word the sun is created on day We are obviously not talking about hour it is not CCC Among all the Scriptural texts about the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse the inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation its origin and its end in its order and the vocation of and finally the drama of sin and the hope of Read in the light of within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the and promise of Note it says truths of That is not an accidental use of the term at Read the CCC on the senses of scripture and different literary Ancients were confused  And moderns are so enlightened Or perhaps they had a valuable insight into Like what Moderns We now believe in Like the fact that God is interested in using physical even if There was no need for them to define things And nowhere does any modern believe that rationally souled people live With regard to the moral value of intact moderns have a better read on But God is interested in you are The Blessed Virgin lives  that seems Rational beings were never intended to That is general to the point of meaninglessness This is the clear teaching of the It is The subject may also be a which we understand Samantha it is very is interested in I mean Especially since Sacraments are have is that a dogmatic  Moral value of intact You are missing the whole It is not a moral An untorn membrane is morally insignificant  But not Physical things are perhaps inadequate signs of spiritual God uses To say that an intact hymen is an essential part of virginity is to endow it was with moral significance Scott intended by saying that the BVM was conceived immaculately in body and soul was to say that conception and fertilization are the and in that respect he necessarily which is why I originally disagreed with Things to Peace But that is not what I am I No It is a necessary sign to show that the Incarnation was entirely You are reading some century angst into virginity manifests absolute initiative in the Jesus has only God as was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his but properly Son of the Father in both Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church United States Catholic and then you read my disagreement jerk In what way is the story of Adam and Eve In what way is the story of Evolution a foundational  igitur virginitas dicitur per remotionem praedictae consequens est quod integritas membri corporalis per accidens se habeat ad Ipsa autem immunitas a delectatione quae consistit in seminis se habet Ipsum autem propositum perpetuo abstinendi a tali delectatione se habet formaliter et completive in Please use the word Modernists use it to question the historical veracity of creation and the There are three ways to look at Fundamentalist historical and Catholic historical but symbolic rather than Modernist nonhistorical and co mean but means ST ad secundum dicendum quod pudicitia est quidem essentialiter in materialiter autem in et similiter Unde Augustinus in libro de quod licet virginitas in carne ac per hoc corporalis tamen spiritualis est quam vovet et servat continentia What is What parts are Is it possibly can it be explained as historical and Why is that an Is that what Marie written before Marie But people mean these terms different It is historical and That is the authoritative teaching of the These creation of human beings in the image of male and the original the the curse of the the protoevangelium all took place at a moment in human history but the language describing these events a are allegorical ways of expressing what actually I cannot read Genesis as creation It is much unlike the other Even with what modern science knows it can be understood None can prove that men did not live so Much of paleontology is The biggest problem with interpreting Genesis as a strict is that there are two different orders of creation and Augustine never treats it as a strict What does history I take the tree as historical and symbolic as The fruit We are such literalist that we cant imagind that God can use real things as The catechism says that the tree represents the limits of man as a creature limits is not meant to Augustine was He said but he is basically the master of Western biblical I still know what history If we are talking hour then certainly it is not As I said the sun is not created until the Read Scott explanation of the creation account realms and building the temple of the commentary on Genesis the is also Augustine wrote three works titled the literal interpretation of once early in mid and late all end with figurative reading But the real topic is to discuss biology and physics my understanding is the world is the same and the nature of the soul not the first creation account makes man last but the second creation account has man made first and all the creatures made and brought to him to be even if all means is the order which order is correct is a matter of Therefore both cannot be literal It matter much since paleontology can fill the gaps of knowledge The two different creation accounts are emphasizing different First account speaks of the temple of with worship as the goal in day Man is the finale the high Second account deals with male and the both contain truths but different truths about different As far as the biblical text creation could have been instantaneous an each account symbolizes the orders in creation via temporal  I quite agree with Parts seem literal and that is But the tree is connected to the cross perhaps Have you read I defined myth very clearly I think my account of myth has been around a lot longer than the modern missed it This is not Hahn but we used this by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or using figures and images in order to explain the current state of then yes it is in the genre of But that is a big and not how the term is commonly used by biblical I also believe that mans rational nature is to be naked and habit is essential to the works of a rational Thus the category is preserved prior to the fall I am pretty sure that many biblical scholars would use the term that Let me suggest that God wrote Genesis in a mode that is easy for all men to That no man could grasp the how as is pointed out in Job and I dont buy the primitive man Perhaps Biblical scholars who are inappropriately utilizing a historical critical is not a fair  I like that And read too My recent status also applies to The Never Ending Without like one is With like one is That is just an ad I know any good Biblical scholars who would use the word when interpreting now you but I read any of your so I I hope you think this is I think we should ever approach the sacred Text as a work of too much reverence lost as soon as you start dividing the Text by genre and literary just my not trying to make an ad hominem I just think using in this climate is extraordinarily You may The account of myth that I gave above is very much inspired by research that I have done in this Jacques Maritain gives a good account of the use of myth in his of Because one should read the Psalms exactly the same way that one reads I in general you are I would not typically use the term among the uneducated or if I were unable to explain myself I think the term is getting wife heat for spending time on this Do you have anything you can I think when approaching the Scriptures we must remember that it is the Word of God and word of Vincent Terreri your point is well The Primary Author in the Holy Spirit the Spirit of The literary styles of the inspired human authors are I think because Magisterial teaching says and we must discern the literal meaning before the but genres are used to try to undermine inerrancy and But to be fair many scholars even do not mean by myth what you A different word than mythos might be more late again but I have not found not bad guys The main thing to keep in mind is that we read Scripture as a Canonical whole with one Primary That is where typology comes in to typology would be But awareness of genres is helpful because we are not And it is the Primary Author who inspires the human authors to write everything He wanted written and nothing to Dei Signing Thank you for the interesting God Jeff take long breaks from TNET and make sure she knows Then Your experience will be more satisfying and you will keep the heat Have faith that TNET will still be here and you will be rewarded for that Just remember to tag others into TNET each time you Go forth and I say biblical There is a lot of And Paul uses the word mythos or fabulas to signify false tales as opposed to true Some big guns got my not just false doctrine but kids stories evolution How was Adam not the most intelligent even after the I often pay but are people calling evolution a Just you heard it here first on I second that What sort of fundies are No such A century and a half of thousands of scientific Set species just poofed into existence and change into other species Young earthers  you say evolution is a are you positing strict creationism as the truth year old or are you referring to the evolution of man from an irrational animal as a The former position is shaky at but I take no issue with the A falsehood that lasts a century and a half is a relatively short For what it is I find the concept of material creation unfolding over millions or billions of with man as the or crowning to be Ptolemy may have been but I call his system a not sure what you think is false All of the The very idea of Our multifaceted approach to determining the chronology of the Our analysis of genetics and bones and what used to be here on the And the majority of scientists have never been wrong But the truth is many evolutionary scientists have given up on the The difficulties are too Kolbe Creation has good work on  I find material creation unfolding over millions or billions of years into something evolutionarily more advanced to be It match with my Things seem to devolve more than And where are the half The ones on their way to being The truth is that cutting edge evolutionary theorists admit they have the mechanics sorted They abandon the facts on the I buy the is claim but I do think at least as worthy of belief as the crystalline spheres were to Things advance at their genesis and earlier devolve But that preclude continued evolvement in nature even as other parts of it unclear as to why slow development is hard to accept while poofing specific species into existence is easy to But I find it hard to believe anyone looking past fringe works written to the choir would not accept that our multiple methods of dating and what found of the past have changed our understanding of the at the very least roughly that is not the So because something is it is post got messed up there They are becoming less doctrinaire and moving into much more interesting territory that increasingly tends to stop short of the asinine contradicts And they are looking into much more interesting territory that transcends ye olde natural Insurmountable But evolution is a religious tenet to question which will get you relegated to the Nice the way it works But de Chardin Well  Wait until Scott gets back on This is one of his pet peeves with  They allow Hugh Owen to speak on  But I think Hugh has some significant things to say both scientifically and As a recovering my observation is that much of Christianity is wary of any thought system related to evolution as it was successfully utilized in the past by others as a means to discredit the existence of the And it was done in a totalitarian Evolution is one of the major dividing questions at right up there with democracy  I was shocked and scandalized by Warren take on it just decided to infuse a human soul into the fetus of an But was surprised to hear that most tutors on campus find that to be a good Even if Genesis that even in the spirit of the  That address why there was set of first parents we must And frankly find it more dignified that a fully formed human adult came from mud than that the first parent was an I that is generally taken to be a decent theory the first couple is a particular and science is not of   The base argument was that take but the reality is that God Incarnation is a great example of a  How do you account for death before the The only thing required to believe is that man had a preternatural gift of immortality before the a I kinda where Thomas seems to indicate that animals killed each other before the In any case it is an hypothesis at one that interest me much but is treated as truth as Galileo held his the best we can do is a likely the crystalline  off to a But I trust you to carry Do hate your bodies and their obvious similarities to animals and Rational I think Hugh is a well intentioned but glad that allow him to speak on simply head in the sand nuttery to dismiss all of modern science and hold to young earther I do think they could or should have Hugh on campus in the context of a be Problem with infusing a soul in an ape fetus is that ape fetus matter is not proportionate to a rational  if you say that God proportioned the matter to the soul then you might as well say that it was from or slime because that iss just as easy for God to because that would be ignoring the Science is of we have evidence of the generation of the first Mind I have no real problems with evolution in many but certainly in the case of humans it is insufficient to explain our origins in any sort of exclusive We In as far as I can the scientific evidence points against a first couple via human genetic Geneticists have pretty much shown that all currently living humans come from a genetic Adam and genetic who lived several thousand years apart How in the universe do you know what matter is proportionate to a I suppose just a slight tweaking of the mass of genetics we share with the especially some of experience diminishes our power of taking a comprehensive view of the admitted those who dwell in intimate association with nature and its phenomena grow more and more able to as the foundations of their principles such as to admit of a wide and coherent while those whom devotion to abstract discussions has rendered unobservant of the facts are too ready to dogmatize on the basis of a few Commentary on De et Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time Studies and Cats never give birth to Dogs never give birth to Thank God we have millions of increasingly sharper and better observations as time goes on as well as exponentially increasing abilities to observe the Humans never give birth to for letting me Glad we are matter is not proportionate to human That is why give birth to man is not generated by man according to the rational soul But man generates matter that is proportionate to receiving a rational which is the Not that I would simply correlate genetic Adam with scriptural In genetic Adam is probably  And according to generation only implies similarity in but that can be generic kind and not only specific I agree with Polar bears can give birth to pizzly Wolves are mating with Coyotes and creating a whole new species of I think it is very hard to distinguish Evolution Speciation Speciation in In the summer of at least iguanas survived Hurricane Marilyn on a raft of That one have a cool a ring as Pizzly that I used the term or I can imagine Cro Magnon matter being pretty well fitted to receive human soul speciation Encyclopedic Speciation is how a new kind of plant or animal species is Speciation occurs when NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SOCIETY nobody thinks humans evolved from I can infer from that everyone agrees with Because that is the only thing I have been Good Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island Italian wall lizards transplanted to a tiny island Red blue The Scientist Capturing the eye of a potential mate is the first step and fishy physics Holding a prism up to a bright window demonstrates a basic principle of optics that the plain white light I get the point of the I have already done lots of reading on  See the section on Polyploidy Cells their are polyploid if they contain more than two haploid sets of that their chromosome number is some multiple of n greater than the content of diploid For triploid and tetraploid cell cells are What is the Do you think speciation happens or Of course I Did you read the arguments that I Not everyone here and your comments about birth give that You of that comment above simply means that Homo Sapiens are related to species that seem to be advanced variants on a primate theme but not I you want me to read what you and others Dogs give birth to I did not say that Dogs only give birth to offspring that biologically identical in A racoons and bears really all that I have no If someone told me if a racoon and a bear had the same I be very you guys are everyone knows the devil planted fossils to lead us astray and destroy the Church I made the Diabolic Darwinist joke like comments the earth is only years Do you even know how big a billion if someone told me that a rainbow trout and a giraffe had the same I would find that harder to all depends on how far back you Damn it be a It is stuff is pretty strange  I always go back to turtles all the way down  The Church has never taught that Creation occurred in twenty four hour years However she teaches infallibly that we have first parents male and The earth is flat and the center of the flat  Flat in Or flat like construction paper of course otherwise we have no original sin The universe is round in the center of a flat Flat in time cube Time Cube The ONLY Official Site For Gene Need Help Donate to Ray at Was more addressing to Edward than Michael but I was just agreeing with you diatribe about TAC mannerisms Just a heads gonna be back later to yell about that in Daniel that was very I will be That is what I do that and be of You can yell back at me Jeffie where the hell did you find that A Thread in the hand gathers no You are welcome Michael I quoted Aquinas because he denies the claim that bodily integrity is essential to I never denied that we had two first just that hard to reconcile the first couple with genetic Without resort to some kind of But it is essential in the case of It might be essential to the but that is not to say that bodily integrity has moral I still think that genetic Adam is I also need to go to How can you still think after all these And also pretty sure that immortality of the person was a gift to man before the I say you denied it Lots of things take a long time to Thousands of years And if it is something that would contradict it would be hasty to cite Which is why the Passion necessarily restore The foxes and birds have holes and but the Son of Man has no where to lay his I deny that before the fall birth was light through a Also Noah may have been one person that survived but Et that was just a regional affair and certainly in no way did it envelop the whole I say it had moral I said the I see Edward is now the mystic expert on the Sacred Passion of our just repeating And the notion that if something is a necessary consequence of a certain set of that set of circumstances cannot exist without the consequence I did not say birth before the Fall was like light through a It would have been but Natural because Adam would have been the When God is the physical integrity is an important sign of the Incarnation being entirely the work of Not if it contradicts Catholic Plus dogma is there to help illumine and make our arguments more reasonable and Thus rationality requires that man be naked and act to clothe or not the since rationality necessitates imperfection of form and perfection to be situational to the work of Thus the hammer is part of the man as an extension of his Man gave names to all the tools in his tool I miss Peregrine what is contradicting what If a certain set of circumstances necessarily implies a certain effect and if that set of circumstances the effect cannot contradict Where did the gentler Scott did anyone see him Before the prelapsarian man had an infused relationship with God and a special relationship with nature and the After the while man retained some dominion over the animals are used by God to help bring man back towards the path of Consider the talking donkey in the Old Testament who directed the prophet Balaam back to the path of and the Sparrow or the Camel which Christ uses to teach lesons about virtue and For the I did not claim physical integrity had moral Samantha said I was implying it the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin and I claimed her suggestion was rooted in century  where did that come and how is it relevant to anything I What in holy name are you blathering New shit has come to light A broken hymen is not a moral not and it I hit wth before your comment appeared I quoted Aqunas indicating that virginity does not consist in an intact Samantha suggested that the dogma of perpetual virginity was a moral Scott refer to above video In in discussing the virtue of Aquinas explicitly says that an intact hymen is per accidens to perpetual virginity is I Edward you are missing the Virginitas in partu is intact hymen during childbirth which is Blather is also word that should be used more I meant as in TX BBQ Texas BBQ is KC is better discuss Oh Michael Beitia has bad but we already knew that KC BBQ has origin in jazz movement on and Lovely Generates much economy in this lovely Real unemployment rate here is perhaps something we can agree probably not Mary suffered child birth and suffered seeing her child die Edward probably never had the joy of KC BBQ is better than Texas BBQ because KC BBQ has deeper cultural I like NC BBQ too Everyone move to Kansas NC BBQ is very NC is beautiful Many good Actually she suffer in Pain in childbirth is a curse of the Immaculate Conception meant no pain in childbirth and due to her role as she is a perpetual Bye Michael already admitted that you like so I lived so it is a familiar dislike kinda heard of more murders in NC than in any other and the food in KC is really just better come visit Chicago My family lives in the Houston area my I passed through it a couple months stayed long enough to drink a cup of coffee and drove my family still lives in but I never want to go back there move to Houston in a there the Aquinas school in  with the Center for Thomistic  whatever I know if hire a Laval fake being Maritainian dinner probably have a better shot at the archdiocesan are you from So the belief of Mary not suffering child birth pains is an interpretation of genesis as literal mixed with the belief of an intact hymen to a light through the window Is it not possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a It is possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a question was phrased I know the The answer to the is The additional answer is that bodily integrity is dogmatically Nowhere on this page does it say experience CATHOLIC Virgin Birth of Christ The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son Also while Mary not know before or after that does not exclude Or natural child If you move to Kansas live in Johnson County Low Good Awesome Diocese Governor is Good Roman I think New Advent prints some things sometimes which are not perfectly pretty sure the part is just a pious when Thomas gives counterexamples to the proposition that two bodies cannot be in one he generally gives Christ walking through the door after his Resurrection and the Virgin to denigrate pious Mary is Mother of Immaculate Seat of Morning Sing her a partial quote of Ott on the bore her Son without any violation of her virginal fide on the ground of the general promulgation of The dogma merely asserts the fact of the continuance of physical virginity without determining more closely how this is to be physiologically In general the Fathers and the Schoolmen conceived it as to the and accordingly taught that Mary gave birth in miraculous fashion without opening of the womb and injury to the and consequently also without pains III according to modern natural scientific the purely physical side of virginity consists in the of the sex act and in the of the female egg by the male seed injury to the hymen in birth does not destroy on the other its rupture seems to belong to complete natural It follows from this that from the concept of virginity alone the miraculous character of the process of birth cannot be if it cannot and must not be derived from other facts of Revelation And a great sign appeared in A woman clothed with the and the moon under her and on her head a crown of twelve And being with she cried travailing in and was in pain to be And there was seen another sign in and behold a great red having seven and ten and on his head seven And his tail drew the third part of the stars of and cast them to the and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be when she should be he might devour her And she brought forth a man who was to rule all nations with an iron and her son was taken up to and to his And the woman fled into the where she had a place prepared by that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty And there was a great battle in Michael and his angels fought with the and the dragon fought and his And they prevailed neither was their place found any more in And that great dragon was cast that old who is called the devil and who seduceth the whole and he was cast unto the and his angels were thrown down with And I heard a loud voice in Now is come and and the kingdom of our and the power of his because the accuser of our brethren is cast who accused them before our God day and And they overcame him by the blood of the and by the word of the and they loved not their lives unto Therefore O and you that dwell Woe to the and to the because the devil is come down unto having great knowing that he hath but a short And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the he persecuted the who brought forth the man And there were given to the woman two wings of a great that she might fly into the desert unto her where she is nourished for a time and and half a from the face of the And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the water as it were a that he might cause her to be carried away by the And the earth helped the and the earth opened her and swallowed up the which the dragon cast out of his And the dragon was angry against the and went to make war with the rest of her who keep the commandments of and have the testimony of Jesus And he stood upon the sand of the Ott is cited here in greater but I think the first part of the letter endorses a heresy seems to me that it implies that Mary need the Passion for Joshua Kenz would know When Mary travelled to visit her cousin her footprints left in the soil were in the shape of lillies of the as it is stated in pious medieval and during the Flight into legend tells how the Holy Family was waylayed by robbers who stole purse only to after they had run it was filled with they returned only to find the marygolds hade been turned again into real gold whereupon they converted and worshipped the be rational and explain the In it is told that the Juniper Bush opened its branches to shelter the Holy Family when pursuing soldiers drew near them as they fled to The rosemary bush and clematis were also said to have sheltered the Holy Family during the flight into The fragrance arose after Mary hung her linens to dry on its Someone is asking to be The alabaster white snowdrop became a symbol of purity and was called the Flower of Purification because it bloomed on February the Feast of the Purification of In Italy and other countries in Europe the statue of Mary was removed from the altar on that day and snowdrops were strewn in its This day was also the feast of the Presentation of Jesus in the The flowers were called Candlemas Bells after the ceremony of blessing the candles began late in the eighth century and February also became known as Candlemas Veneration of Mary is highly I just work and still have a lot to catch But her are somethings Samantha The difference in ensoulment is that God does not the soul and in the Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human in the order of it is posterior to though it may be simultaneous in The soul really is not something just crammed into the It is a term of But if multiple souls are in that then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human to natural Edward Langley and Joel This seems a fair treatment of the question of the desire to know is ideas of ensoulment are original sin cannot Even with Thomas the argument for how original sin is inherited is extremely This problem made Augustine waver between creationism and The cannot be something so extrinsic to the natural process of which must precede Reginald We give here the chief characteristics of the knowledge creatures may have of first by the beatific secondly by the analogical knowledge we must be content with here On the Marian and the stupidity of citing Ott without actually citing him supposed lists of dogmata without his actual I will have to comment later on It is impossible to reduce sacred dogma to rational debate and certain rational It can only be understood as a reasonable it is important to however but the way to understanding the sacred is not the same as natural The understanding of the sacred is a reasonable and it certainly admits of pious myth and literary which to many seems more appropriate than the physiological descriptions of talk about the of Mary makes me And thanks for the He puts it I fail completely to see how hymen staying intact through childbirth is in any way relevant to anything including that the Incarnation is entirely the work of Have you guys figured out amongst yourselves whether that weirdness is actually Joshua I think I actually cited I gave the original source which included the page numbers and a longer Seemed like you were leaning toward I think the reason for the intact according to was to be a sign that the conception of Christ was entirely Ott is not the final but is a good reference was quoted and it leans towards But basically whatever that must be affirmed of Mary at all Any old random weird miracle would fit the bill just as I I really know what is included under the and things the others said gives me this is Piux in defining the but I know if it As if these splendid eulogies and tributes were not the Fathers proclaimed with particular and definite statements that when one treats of the holy Virgin Mary is not even to be for to her more grace was given than was necessary to conquer sin They also declared that the most glorious Virgin was Reparatrix of the first the giver of life to that she was chosen before the prepared for himself by the Most foretold by God when he said to the will put enmities between you and the evidence that she was crushed the poisonous head of the And hence they affirmed that the Blessed Virgin through entirely free from every stain of and from all corruption of soul and that she was always united with God and joined to him by an eternal that she was never in darkness but always in and she was entirely a fit habitation for not because of the state of her but because of her original Does circumcision as the sign of the Covenant in the Old Testament make you followed by Her virginity and after giving although implicit in the title virgin already attributed to Mary from the earliest became the object of deep doctrinal study since some began explicitly to cast doubts on Pope St Hormisdas explains that Son of God became Son of born in time in the manner of a opening his womb to birth Lk through not dissolving his This doctrine was confirmed by the Second Vatican which states that the firstborn Son of Mary not diminish his virginal integrity but sanctified As regards her virginity after the it must first of all be pointed out that there are no reasons for thinking that the will to remain a which Mary expressed at the moment of the Annunciation Lk was then the immediate meaning of the your your which Jesus addressed to Mary and to his favourite disciple from the imply that Mary had no other The intact hymen is a particularly fitting miracle in two it nearly completely rules out sexual intercourse in the generation of and it makes it so that birth involves a miracle only possible by the power of making two bodies be in the same JP II is always good and Ed you are being profane and raining on the parade of sacred No more so than Aquinas in discussing these but neither pope speaks specifically to the question of physical so I suppose it really matter And Aquinas was known for his I see the but more an examination of all the case it not analogous You are not and you are way out of So only the female body nauseates talking about the virgin birth and part of the tradition is bodily those arguments are never said they can we go back to what we perpetual virginity free from sin from the moment the soul was put into the body The female body does not nauseate People thinking that natural childbirth is a violation of But these details are subject to the will of so we have anything more than such arguments in these Are you still holding that the Immaculate Conception was not immaculate in Her What does that Papa does anyone know what Scott is talking I was merely disagreeing that conception is the same as as I have said But cutting off a foreskin is fine with I think he knows what he is talking as Pius IX seems to agree with me like I to in the real order of What is the parallel you are attempting to you do hold that Mary was immaculate only in soul but not I just want to know your position before backing out of this obscene To hell with I never said that In I just said that I never said that The point is giving birth to the Son of God is not It is supernatural That it would occur in an extraordinary way to highlight that point is not in any way denigrating to natural I think your nausea is rooted in the fact that you see it as some kind of sexist thing which is why I refer to century is a pretty bordering on term to use what the Holy Father Pius IX Now inasmuch as whatever pertains to sacred worship is intimately connected with its object and cannot have either consistency or durability if this object is vague or our the Roman while directing all their efforts toward an increase of the devotion to the made it their aim not only to emphasize the object with the utmost but also to enunciate the exact Definitely and clearly they taught that the feast was held in honor of the conception of the They denounced as false and absolutely foreign to the mind of the Church the opinion of those who held and affirmed that it was not the conception of the Virgin but her sanctification that was honored by the They never thought that greater leniency should be extended toward those attempting to disprove the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the devised a distinction between the first and second instance of conception and inferred that the conception which the Church celebrates was not that of the first instance of conception but the In they held it was their duty not only to uphold and defend with all their power the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin but also to assert that the true object of this veneration was her conception considered in its first Hence the words of one of our Alexander who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the the most Blessed Virgin Mother of ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the infusion into the by a special grace and privilege of in view of the merits of Jesus her Son and the Redeemer of the human preserved free from all stain of original And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the I draw attention to the instant of the infusion into the which suggests the existence of some thing for the soul to be infused into now of you can hold that fertilization is contemporary with and suggesting that one is the biological act and the other is a metaphysical only possible by the divine will and potentially separable in time I think the separability in time is a necessary consequence of the rational soul not being generable by any power besides the generative faculty has to have a proportionate object of itself for it to be an instrument of the generation of the person and that proportionate object cannot be the rational principle is that every instrument has an effect it produces by its own as well as an effect it produces by the power of the principal I tend to but not wedded to the I fail to see where I have contradicted any teaching of the Church that justifies a to You claimed that it is dogma to hold that Mary remained through All the actual quotes that have been produced from actual dogma affirm no such but rather talk about perpetual virginity and unless you want to claim that an intact hymen is necessary to or that physical childbirth is a corruption of the then you were just wrong about your original I said not just to be If you want to make a really weak argument about fittingness and admit it or produce some actual evidence that your weird claim is then go for welcome for doing the leg work Yes thanks someone has to dig up actual dogma for us to endlessly debate First Lateran anyone does according to the holy confess truly and properly that holy ever virgin and is Mother of since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy God the Word who before the ages was begotten of God the and gave birth to Him without her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the let him be How do you interpret breaking her  Giving birth injure virginity unless you want to make a weird claim about an intact hymen being essential to virginity which I would find part of my century no doubt So when the Church specifically states she remained a virgin you think we need to be assured she was not having sex while she was giving That is absurd You quoted that she remained a virgin after the birth No the teaching is during and I have quoted it at least the same as during and yep beat me to it and we all agree on Beat you to Weeeelll Why even say perpetual we all agree on I I have a problem with it if I I like to keep all this clear in my what I would actually have to what I useful for reference And I tell you have a pretty damn hard time seeing how it was necessary to my salvation to believe that hymen was intact after she gave birth to Christ This might be a bit but would you mind sharing your biggest maybe if TNET starts showing real signs of winding down in and post is the Why bother with Who would think someone would be having sex while giving Natural child birth is made better by participation in I guess as to the physical I see arguments for as Edward and Marie have But I also think that the baby is a little I think any interpretation is necessary Maybe just being thorough I still want an answer to why do you deny true even if it making a very profound point Maybe refers to birth not violating I honestly unless you want to assert that an intact hymen is an essential part of you made your point dogma supposed to be what is necessary to believe for I think that dogmas are divided into two those which are simply necessary for salvation and those which are necessary to believe for salvation only because the Church has proposed them for happily admit wrong on But if I were wonder how early Christians who denied the IC were saved if belief in the IC is necessary for Did I get that All I know is that nothing in the event that was the birth of Christ violated virginity always been happy with perpetual I thought the JPII quote above he quotes was I think has been dogmatically dogma is what is always all time For the sake of going full rationality pre fall necessitating pain and clothing was my thesis Adventure Time FULL FULL CIRCLE  I think you are missing my I personally would find it more concerning if giving birth was considered a violation of purity than if a physical sign was left to indicate a supernatural I really know why this nauseates but you are entitled to your BTW I still understand why circumcision is no problem for Is it a problem for I still see what connection you are And you keep arguing that virgin during childbirth has to mean her hymen which means you think a torn hymen is not compatible with which is problematic to difference in ensoulment is that God does not the soul and in the Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human in the order of it is posterior to though it may be simultaneous in The soul really is not something just crammed into the It is a term of But if multiple souls are in that then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human to natural But going back to this is what Kenz saying here compatible with the ensoulment view wherein the soul comes to be well after Well I think circumcision is not part of the New Covenant for a And you continue to miss the A torn hymen is not incompatible with However if you wanted to stress the point about a supernatural it seems a logical way to do and it explains better than a loss of purity through childbirth or sex during Like I if you want to make a weird fittingness argument for intact go for But claim because then implying something completely given what the dogmatic statements actually say As I read it is perfectly compatible with that as the soul would then be the term of that generation and posterior in as well as in the order of That mean it is posterior in but that would be the easy So the embryo is just mattered being prepared until And you want to say that more likely refers to a broken leg so I will remain with the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who speak of thru and you can hold your I want to say that injury to her virginity cannot refer to injury to her But enjoy your thru if that makes sense to You are very You may not respect the Fathers and Doctors of the but I I am I think at this the most helpful resolution is to realize that neither position seems to be ruled out by the If I thought you were I would accept If the soul is the formal it necessary for life and cell Unless soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative animal soul or rational Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to so that person is a human is an accurate Unless there is explicit evidence as to the implications of more or less view of least the first I am sorry I was I know how much thought Aquinas gave to the from the rational But something like that seems to happen when body parts are kept outside of the person and possibly in certain And so ensoulment is part of all cell division and if so divided into two separate organisms they are two separate souls that have some relation to the prior soul causing said The infusion of the rational soul is a special because the only way for an intellect to come to be is an special act of It seems there are three One before and two But also why are Scott and I the only ones on this thread who ever get called out for being according to the position of the Christian Scott has called me a and several And Beitia calls a jerk But are there people without speak Erik because is defined by the rational let me know if I did that Scott calls all of us so that So that confirms Gingers are And thus not God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the God chose what is weak in the world to shame the happy to go out being considered an I hope I been a jerk without due Well I say If the soul is the formal it necessary for life and cell Unless soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative animal soul or rational Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to so that person is a human is an accurate has this been I basically said that the ascent is and not sure about the But not really an then the same biological organism is a completely different kind of being at different times more or less Would it be a being on that Samantha and no offense I teach Theology to high school students for a We live in a very sceptical world and it is possible to Monty pretty much any Catholic I try to be fair with the I would say that it is always the same thing I only taught theology for a semester as a long term I think we know pretty well biologically these days that an embryo is a biological organism from some kind of being The various transitional beings are incomplete beings directed by their nature to a complete namely the human as are the sperm and But I hold the delayed ensoulment I should have said not sure which position is but I incline to simutaneity of conception and ensoulment I just think delayed ensoulment as stupid as some people think it to be and that Aristotle just might be right  And that in the a spurious Jeff dinner coming Natives are getting Sounds like the spouses are coming after their spouses get your nose out of the phone and man that grill My wife has asked if instead of yelling up the I would rather she post her requests on I too busy with TNET of I want to see Just as long as no one tags Catherine Joliat Feil  Is Catherine Joliat Feil a Or just too good for Liz the chicken is flipped and re flip and sauce in a Sounds I got a to so yet to top and I called Daniel a jerk who said I missed it guess Jeff thank you for the speedy I shall inform the nevermind I think that But what do we make of the time between fertilization and several days according to where the zygote has cells merrily dividing Do you think implantation is significant in some according to of naturally fertilized eggs pass with the uterine lining fertilized in time to and thus out they go yes I do back to that are If this goes back to hell again out we I understand how of because what they would be if the zygote had a rational end before the first Makes no sense  give you that it seems wrong intuitively charcoal grill and everything I know it an argument for delayed but it seems intuitively correct I hear carry on how we roll Samantha how do you roll are Lol You try typing on the iPhone with a yr old crawling on Still If delayed ensoulment is the I know if the Church is consistent in the gravity with which it regards all I think that follows Morning after as If not implanted then not ensouled Not abortion Not that it regards them as just the way it insists on the gravity automatic excommunications and such Feil Samantha I will cop to occasional but I lack the commitment and that actual posting would seem to Feil satisfied that my influence has been felt on the topics that piqued my should I get short Frye boots or tall Frye I should have Feil Are you trying to chase all the men off the just get your going shopping I was trying to chase them off with all that hymen but it work Based on my reading of Church history and the men talking about lol so true I I I Feil tall ones may be less subject to the vicissitudes of the fashion industry they may be more the short ones are Ferrier I prefer talk about Frye Leather Boot Nordstrom Free shipping and returns on Frye I like these ones neither tall nor cheap Feil Samantha Probably the closest I came to actually posting was to tell you how jealous I am of your But then the conversation moved Their school is soooooo great Feil There is a Charlotte Mason school in Northern it is minutes from here like with and it costs twice as Feil in NoVa involves traffic and inflated NoVa Frye D Ring Boot Nordstrom Free shipping and returns on Frye D Ring Pardon me if I for anyone so a different and intrinsically less important but one I have wanted to return to for some time I recall whether it was on TNET or some other thread that a number of teachers were comparing notes on their current willingness to make moral but I was surprised by the shared experience of these teachers on this They said that their students were generally convinced that some actions are indeed especially obviously evil actions such as torturing What I have found in the is that while students will confess to having a personal aversion to torturing they are almost universally unwilling to say that such actions are wrong for everyone I have set forth below an actual facebook dialogue with one of my is now studying at a well respected liberal arts which illustrates well my experience in the classroom for the last I have not posted this dialogue to ridicule this student or anyone but I would be very interested to know whether other teachers out there have generally had the same kinds of exchanges with their In the dialogue below I have had to break up into three parts since facebook will not accept it as a single I have changed the names of all the other participants to protect their The dialogue was initiated when my posted an article about a man who feel in love with his best friend and thereby discovered that homosexual love was as wonderful as heterosexual friend Sally was the first to respond with warm support for the After response to I entered the conversation as follows I love the just matters if it brought me Thanks so much for reading I If only everyone was like this you Jeffrey I am confused by your You want everyone to be like Does that mean you are not open to people who are not like That sounds judgmental to yet you the one who is against people making such Please of course To each their of I simply I wish everyone was so much more focused on the parts that like Rather than the parts that get in the like what you think you are supposed to or identify with or what the world will see it I think its a beautiful gift that this man was able to just recognize that he loved this his best and try to question it to but rather accepted it as something positive and loving in his life and let that be I think this is a case of simplicity being the best path he could have offered I appreciate you caring enough to inquire further and I hope this explains a little Jeffrey I think I understand what you are but I am still Can the principle of each their really guide What if is contrary to what you support in your comment In other what if someone rejects the idea of each their You clearly agree with that yet by your own principle you also have to approve of that the principle of each their cause one to both approve of and disapprove of the very same Does that make any sense to It And I think I agree with exactly the way phrased I suppose a good comparison would be when a couple to on specific They reach a level of neutrality without surrendering their own personal beliefs on the This allows them to carry on together and move functioning together in the same world as two individual When you take this ideology to a larger population than one specific the human I think each their is a way to work towards harmony when there are so many different and sometimes conflicting and beliefs out without feeling compelled to all be cookie cutter copies of one always in I agree completely with what said about my own principle asking me to both simultaneously approve of and disapprove of the very same but I suppose it depends on what my end goal is for this to be acceptable and good If my end goal is to achieve peace and respect amongst the people I share this earth then I would say its the best path learned to get there in my young adult Part II Jeffrey But there limits to the principle each their Let me offer an extreme example in order to make a What if someone loves to torture Surely you would not say to that to each their You could not just to could Jeffrey I am assuming you could not to with someone who loves to torture You could not say in that case each their because you would be supporting someone doing something that is But as soon as you admit that something is you have to give up the principle each their Well here is where I run into my own personal I am still trying to figure out my own beliefs on if people can by good or I mean purely born one or the other without any choice in the Or if everyone is born and along the way things happen to them that shape the decisions they for torturing Assuming I believe that everyone is born good and something led this person to make such a socially deemed I would be much more inclined to feel empathy for this I would not condone but I would try to put myself in his or her shoes and see how come to justify if I come to believe that some people are just born rotten in their then I would be significantly less inclined to agree to disagree in this situation because he would be the Assuming I was born inherently good and am in the right mind to decide such a thing You are once I might admit something is I would indeed have to forfeit that But to play advocate first we would have to determine who gets to decide the definition of Just because the majority might think something is so make it Fact or Because to the individual doing the he or she may in their heart and may not find anything wrong at all about their beloved past time or choice in Jeffrey but if someone who tortures babies sincerely believes he is doing something we say he is mistaken regardless of how he feels about I definitely feel qualified to enter into this once desires violate someone when you essentially lose that Like and torturing But when just some love out into the and not forcing it on to a target that want not violating rights and therefore free to do Jeffrey Who determines the question of when a has taken If we say each their then we cannot say that theft or torturing babies is Greg seems to be suggesting there is an objective standard of right and which would mean that each their cannot be a guiding principle in agree with I am one of the last who would ever be one to hop on board the I just think its up to me to decide that he is Feil posted under profile Feil since you are pretty you should be able to wear pretty much any height of is not true of funnier if I imagine Joel saying Part III Jeffrey Would you really not try to stop someone who was torturing a Of course I plan on having at least myself and adopting the rest of the that need a loving My point is just who am I to make that an omnipotent definition of right or mistaken or Jeffrey But do you see that your principle of each their was in fact an attempt to identify an universal statement about right and The problem that principle really guide our lives you just indicated when you acknowledged that you would not follow such a principle if you saw someone torturing a Jeffrey My point is We cannot avoid attempting to determine what is right and because even a principle like each their is such an It just happens to be one that contradicts itself and therefore cannot be I realize this brings us back to our original I am no longer allowing this man or woman to practice their own beliefs by interfering and placing my own values into the equation by trying to remove the baby from the This example contradicts the principle I am in favor of I mean to be a as I am sure no one ever intends to But I come across a better so to speak for how to coexist as well as when I have practiced the each his own And in more times than the circumstances and situations I encourage myself to apply this principle in are not nearly as extreme as torturing a Rather it just helps to remind me that there is more than one way to even if its different than Just because its not my way or a way I may not be able to see eye to eye mean its wrong or beneath Jeffrey I have to get some But I would love to continue this conversation at another time if you are You have a good heart and glad to hear you plan on having Peace be with I always welcome intelligent Its quite Thank you for such kind words as Peace be with you and your family too I had to read these comments times but that was easily the coolest debate ever encountered Thanks Feil He was not very happy about Caleb has reported similar unwillingness among students to actually make universal moral claims Feil Especially given the subject they all think Joel gives excellent fashion advice now I think go with the tall all think rightly If you get sucked then never And I keep telling myself about to I pretty Jeffrey thanks for Was it on this thread that this was being discussed long Or was it another thread of Jeffrey in my the default position of people at but perhaps has been rank I seen much of The vast majority of my students are very They are just deeply A lot of when would rather admit their their moral norms are actually just moral preferences than say there is objective right and wrong that I think you should get the shorter boots refuse to be scared It has been the norm in my How can lazy moral relativism be the What the hell cave tells the story quite I they all hate Everything is except of course a denial that all is Or so it seems to Because we are now the last The hollow men They will tie themselves up in knots coming up with a way to condemn true If you ask them about racism and same sex marriage and economic inequality they seem very Is slavery They say I buy They are to be by a stupid relativism but most students like most people are not really But bigotry just means thinking some things are always they will condemn like they condem torturing but if pushed they will say that their condemnation is not And bigotry is always Our public discourse is full of claims about I agree there is no agreement and mass confusion re what the basis of morality is or even can or could of but if you press as I did Karen in the dialogue I my experience is that they will return to the subjective even on I need more experience in the Look at what Karen says about torturing She is not personally for of but she cannot say it is wrong for anyone It is also full of One of the reasons radical Islam gets treated differently by many not is the desire to be inclusive and not to judge other Of against that you have people like Hitchens or whoever claiming that all religion is evil But fighting people largely on his elite liberal How long have you been Then there is Pater who seems to just have a thing for will speak unto them of the most contemptible is THE LAST And thus spake Zarathustra unto the It is time for man to fix his It is time for man to plant the germ of his highest Still is his soil rich enough for But that soil will one day be poor and and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow there cometh the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond the string of his bow will have unlearned to I tell one must still have chaos in to give birth to a dancing I tell ye have still chaos in There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any There cometh the time of the most despicable who can no longer despise I show you THE LAST is What is What is What is a asketh the last man and The earth hath then become and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything His species is ineradicable like that of the the last man liveth I have not had this I do think Matthew brought it up a long while I am But it is the conclusion of the principles that govern public discourse and that soil will one day be poor and and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow I know how many of you have the time to actually read more than my introduction to my dialogue with Karen that I posted but I would be grateful to any of you who would read the whole thing to see if it conforms with your For this conversation is absolutely If your experience is I would be very interested to know how your students react when pressed in the same That is actually shocking and explains a I have seen this on one FB heated debate where the ultimate ground for a particular pro abortion position was that individual choice was the first principle of moral I have students because I I interact with adults of various ages in my But found that the older ones also suffer from the same inability to firmly come down on a makes you is more the phrase I hear However I have not had a class in which I pressed this in a blue collar a lot of the personal ribbing that goes on between men is calling each other homosexual in one way or In the last several years the more frequent response has been is it Do you ever challenge that principle by pointing out that one cannot consistently defend makes you when two people are made happy by opposed say the desire to avoid the abuser and the desire to abuse the I usually call them IDIOTS who all went to Catholic school and should know better So Been off the thread for a after we were but then no one will engage me in debate at work Quite a healthy response my subjective That was my experience in an environment that allowed for more heated the is like salt to food at my it is added to everything Good opportunity to expose the You want to makes you They want to makes them Can they really agree that both sides are Someone is going to be left The funniest thing was the Texas style liberals with ranting about how all republicans were racist when I was the only one who had I have more success with discussing Obama and the adulation he receives from the black community in with members of the black community in Chicago I am surprised you are still kinda funny how parochial the average American liberal is several of my live on the south consequently are black and there is an odd respect that you get when they realize that you from He wants racial but heaven forbid that he interact with members of other races in anything besides a professional people from the West have the inborn racism that white Chicagoans have oh and BTW I am from wanna guess how many times seen Built to How once for   they used to play almost every Thursday night at the club in Boise called crazy turned into a gay bar right after high school called I am of the opinion that Iran ought to develop nuclear power They need it both to continue developing as a providing power and clean water as well as continuing their only major They lack the natural gas resources to continue a natural growth curve As a nation going through funny that even Zizek recognizes that is the only virtue left in the West I can say that folks in northern Wisconsin have not lost their moral compass to that It is refreshingly down to earth up But even Eau Claire is not But absolute majority rule is preferred mode of are you near I would think that a totalitarian set of rules would be preferred by those that do not wish to establish or push their view on others and intolerance the only miles The only sin is tobacco cigarettes Here are the fundamental moral principles of the students I see year in and year No one should impose his views on anyone Everyone should be tolerant of all points of Everyone should be free to do whatever he likes as long as he does not hurt anyone Everyone should be Nonconformity is better than Democracy is the best form of There is no absolute for you may not be what is for All of these when understood as they are understand by my are because they all rest on the relativist principle set forth in number Yet they repeat them like they are the Built to Spill on Built to Spill Cleo Nothing Wrong With Love When simple examples break the how do they  And when you show them the contradiction in their the vast majority of them continue to hold that Do they attempt to establish My experience has convinced me that cave allegory is fundamentally and the seven principles above are the shadows of the American The allegory no How often do people wish to leave the I see one or two per year who want Thx The cave wants to keep you there The cave dwellers want to stay Or any other modern interpretations of the Such as matrix or the Lego movie The Truman Show Yup I prefer the Lego movie as a remake of the It is a fight to And once out there much there to support except The modern cave seems much more powerful than the original version exposed by I guess this is the problem with tac and supporting graduates once  Jeffrey taught two sections of Phil at CUA for all first year I focus on ethics and politics for the and my experience was that at least of the students disagree with moral relativism even before taking the That is quite Can they make the argument against Or do they simply oppose it out of a kind of These students must have been visited by Hermes and given the holy moly to protect them against the seductive wiles of Several have argued against the inconsistency of moral relativism in a way similar to the one you pointed you consistently hold both that morals are subjective and that you can do whatever as long as you hurt someone Some of the others sure how to defend it but agreed with the arguments after they were And then there were some that seem to be sure whether they should be relativists or not wanted to agree with both The remaining were quite convinced of moral relativism even after these I think they ever changed their mind least not while I had them for If over are leaving having been convinced that moral relativism is inherently then there is I can convince many of them that moral relativism is and I can even get some to repeat the arguments and seemingly understand but most of them slip back to their original relativism once they have been away from the discussion for a period of Very few really make the position their Where I taught relativism was not a problem and I had not realized how pervasive it I had imbibed some of its But it is impossible maybe to fully shake Jeffrey Bond your concerns are This teaching I am going through Thomas Faith and I recommend it more highly for dealing with those precise Chapter the Origins of Error is particularly I will check it Thank I had some while ago read Testem Benevolentiam and its a check list of some of my more than one that relates to It is in our air and water and These are the questions I just assigned for I think it will give you a feel for what I am getting Faith and Certitude Thomas Dubay Chapter Questions Should we accept error as something Why or why According to physical should a stick in the water appear to be How does answering that question help us to understand whether or not our senses truly deceive In the example of the fruit what was the origin of the error when he declared at the gorgeous Dubay lists six common reasons that we often assert what we have not really heard or Please list these six reasons your list does not have to be in complete there are paragraphs in a row explaining At the bottom of page Dubay says ignorance of ignorance is a depressing We all suffer from this at How is it possible to combat this What does it mean to say go by their not by folk wisdom excludes anything that cannot be placed on a poster or bumper sticker and read at a Dubay says men everywhere show the same Why does sin cloud Do we reach reality as a whole person or as a detached What are the three main reasons people leave the seems clear enough that if sexual activities leading to intercourse and coitus itself were unpleasant or simply no one would have any problem seeing that contraception is both unnatural and Explain how we rationalize sexual behavior through using the example of those who claimed the ruling purpose of their own intercourse was the unselfish of their WRT to the Virgin the whole sun shining through glass which is directly from Augustine is used in the Roman Catechism and has some magisterial It merely a pious That mean it is a but it does mean that it deserves a little more I would dare call it at the least or even meaning it would be impudence to mock it or dismiss it but possible to reject after considered She was DURING and If the Church saw the need to say there must be some even if only in which virginity could have been in giving I know if the passage has been brought but Thomas explains the matter of virginity being the exclusion of having experienced sexual motions of the generative with the form being the exclusion of any wilful sexual motion of said parts means you are not a but rape mean you would a Now for the perfection of virginity Aquinas says one needs both mental and physical Sometimes he does refer to physical intactness as the other times only as making the matter as I said Mary would be a virgin and this suffices to be a true in the moral But she would also be a virgin in that she would not have experienced such motions even The physical intactness would be a further perfection of the though Aquinas himself notes how an say by a would no more affect the matter of virginity than being cut in the let me post this Aquinas fleshes this out more in some Seeing that the integrity of the the formal and moral aspect of virginity is the more the material integrity is fold Purely Thomas says this is not the matter of any virtue or except as mediating some passion of the unde si per aliquam incisionem claustra pudoris non majus detrimentum virginitati inerit quam si pes aut manus gladio incideretur if by some incision the hymen is there would not be a greater detriment to virginity than if the foot or hand were cut by the So rupturing the hymen is only a matter of WHEN the rupture is actually caused by the sexual Otherwise it has just about nothing to do with But its intactness would be a visible sign that such activity has not even if its absence is no sure sign that it has The second element of its is the venereal motion from whence sexual pleasure Is the passion of the soul that subjects reason to itself Only these last two pertain per se to the matter of vice and It is it to affirm the dogma and hold that the rupturing of the hymen by birth would be like an not relevant to But then one would have to explain the importance of the You could easily explain the physical as being far broader than the So just the part needs Samantha I had a talk I have once that went into a lot of detail about view of generation and how just about everyone misrepresents is not as simple as saying that it starts with a vegetable and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by an animal and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by a but that does seem to be the case of what he is saying on a first I wish I could find that when I am the one who did the I am too lazy not to plagiarize Somehow I found a rough draft of the In question of the Prima Pars of the Summa Aquinas asks whether the substantial forms of corporeal beings are produced by the Thomas explains two views he One is an emantionist which holds that there is a separated and subsisting form of man that is and the immaterial man participates in this so that the matter receives its impression in a The same is held about and horse and any other formal aspect of a The other which he ascribes to is that the forms of corporeal things exist in the or as we call them the same way that the form of a statue exists in the artisan prior to making the He says both of these share a common They treat the substantial form as an entity and hence tried to answer how the form itself was brought into it is the composite that comes into It is not the equine form that is made as some kind of substance itself which is then impressed on but this horse that comes to This being the the cause must be looked for in another composite and not a spiritual A horse produces a Angels are still because he holds that the composite agent is moved by a created spiritual but they are involved precisely by moving the corporeal Hence the form does not emanate from them or arise from then apart from the corporeal the potentiality of matter for this form is brought into act by the composite The created spiritual substance moves it to that but does not replace the material Further the species of these forms is referred back to God as the first Only the first production of a corporeal creature involved God immediately producing the because matter only obeys His command But once nature it is the reason for the reproduction of that In question of the prima pars we move to the production of the Thomas affirms that the sensitive soul soul of is not produced by an act of but through the agent The argument to the he rests on the premise that an animal soul is simple and If this were then it would have to be made through He denies the premise as he argued the animal soul does not The reason is that in brute who have sensation but no there is no operation that is not involved with some Since every operation then is of the composite acting as a there is no operation of the animal Since being follows upon there is no warrant to claim that the animal soul is It must then perish with the Because of this it is not proper to speak of the animal soul being but rather the composite being It is the composite that not the animal except inasmuch as the existence of the composite is through the the soul is produced in the matter through corporeal similar to non living The semen acts as a medium in the case of it is an instrument of the For Thomas the semen has a force that acts on the foetal matter given by the The foetal matter has vegetative life and takes in The force of the influence of the semen transmutes it until in some principal part the sensitive soul is present sensitive soul is not in the but effect by the Once this happens the semen is no longer exists as the semen gets If we adapt his explanation to modern we may say that when the sperm joins the egg a change is effected such that in a principal part the nuclei of the the form is already From the substantial form in the body is able to work to the perfection of that body without any more need of influence from any In the next article we find that we cannot say this about the human Thomas say that it is heretical to believe that the human soul is generated by the The reason is that the human soul is Now the intellect has an operation this does not involve the such as happens in understanding Since this is the a material agent could never produce this being the that it has a per se operation apart from the it is subsistent unlike the animal Being simple and subsistent it needs be created by This holds true in every instance of human not merely the creation of the first Several objections are The most important is the In man there is one and the same soul according to sensitive and But the sensitive soul is generated in man by the just as in other whence also the philosopher says in his book on the generation of animals that animal and man are not made at the same but first an animal is made having a sensitive Therefore the intellective soul is also caused from the answer here is very He rejects two positions pretty One is that the vital operations of the embryo are caused by the mother or the But this cannot be because etc cannot be caused from an exterior So at least the nutritive soul is present in the embryo from the He rejects also that there are three souls in where the intellectual soul stands as act to the sensitive which stands as act to the nutritive This is rejected because one must reject really the notion of substantial form to hold The third position he argues at length This holds that the same soul evolves from to sensitive and to This position even affirms God doing He rejects this for several One is that substantial form does not admit of more or By adding or subtracting we get a different just as by take a species of say and adding we no longer have the same species but a new The same identical form cannot belong to multiple species for an obvious reason that either the form would not be the or the species would be an animal would come to be in a continuous But in substantial change we do not have a lapse of Either this thing is a man or He may be a man who is bleeding to but he is still fully a man while he is a this would not be which is always the bringing of a new thing into the matter and hence the end of an old This against what we observe in we must either say that the intellectual soul is subsistent in which case it needs be distinct from the form it evolved from or that like the form it is not but that is Thomas states have the citation in Certain people have understood the body of man to be formed prior in time and afterward that God poured the soul into the already formed But this is against the ratio of the perfection of the first institution of that God should make either the body without the soul or the soul without the since both are part of human And this is also even more unfitting of the which depends on the soul and not My lazines meant massive I do think my thoughts from the were helpful to and may to some of Especially after seeing the question raised about the of souls Pretty sure TNET has met its quota for use misuse of Next What about my last That was about embryonic development It seems impossible to say the zygote is not an human person though rational in potentia without rejecting the notion of substantial But that in is little different from the nine month Does this mean we get to return to TNET is Ground Hogs Day wherefore it can be said to be never I would like to point out my earlier contention that while discussing this matter is interesting and at the same time it is beyond our capacity and that is For as pointed out in the foundations of the world are How much moreso the new creation of a human soul which is of more worth than all visible being assumptions about creation and the immutability of the laws of physics really set all theories about origins on tenuous grounds as an oh and while the thread is while I appreciate the criticism of my anti evolutionary position which admits I have sound reasons and am as immoveable by mere hypotheses as the earth before Anyways my sentimental syllogism is hard to i am comfy dwelling in the notion of an year old earth and with the thought that Adam named many of the same animals I Uh TNET is It is time to inject it with life through sneaky underhanded Modesty in dress a good or the BEST hee define are you going burka or tastefully burka or bust Lets blow up this What does thomas Breast feeding in public without a cover is modest Get over the fact that a baby is eating on an uncovered Clothing is a primarily a tool for secondarily a tool for beauty to complement the human I do know if you want to see grossly to the TAC Immodesty is an effect of passion not So the person wearing is is never immodest to The concept of modesty is the only outward effect of the that other stuff about pain in childbirth and other such crap is modesty as safeguarding purity and modesty as temperance in our relations to others dress and due proportion or a mean between slovenly appearance and drawing excessive attention to New Line Of Sexy Ankle Length Jean Jumpers Stirs Up Controversy At Re modesty as a safeguard of the virtue of reason establishes the norms after which custom works out acceptable That is how I understand Complementing the human would mean complementing the externals as The athlete is not For I do not believe a triathlete is ever However you a person moves to the category of morbidly the human form requires more clothing to complement the lack of Modesty as a safeguard to the purity of another may actually fall under justice and not merely the virtue of BUT What of the functional aspect you What are clothes burka Sounds like the problem is in the formation of the individual and an over emphasized sense of modesty is actually destructive to purity Weather socks angles leg covers if you may get scratched burka was a Complementing human form I know I laughed All clothing is part of however clothing for modesty is a result of the fall But why any clothes for Venus on a temperate day in the Being a work of man it can be done better or therefore some cloths can be for beauty Venus wearing flowers in her hair Also the sun may Disrobing in the heat and standing in the shade is not uncommon However if you create a culture that says anything less than a burka is and would cause and people were raised in that culture is it not Thus like my link above if you raise your children to believe modesty means ankle length jean than truly anything less is immodest have nor will get modesty as temperance gesture and dress in our relation with Let me suggest that reason does give minimal limits as to what ought to be They are set by what tempts the weaker sex this to impure thoughts I am not speaking of those who make no attempt to guard the  nipples and pubic start with that as the reasonable limit lived and worked in Huntington Beach where string bikinis are street the beach As my wife would say length that you flash you if you bend Thank God I broke you from that Good thing you married Prudish people make beautiful Flaunt what your maker gave My knees are quite Thank you I put this in my thesis at tac as so you are fine with your year old daughter wearing bandaids Ace Totally Front yard or back I believe dressing appropriately for the For I rarely wear unless it is for But do you think Aquinas and Pius XI are wrong to point out that norms for fashion be taken from a morally corrupt culture like the cannibals of Hawaii as opposed to the full length dresses of traditional They dressed for their Not immodest  Videos and photos of tribesmen are not immodest until you take them from their environment and culture and placed them in European BTW Hawaii is very Houstonians should be stark naked by that What is the definition of modesty that people are going off But the houstonians would get sun i raised it above I would be happy with a better The problem with setting the definition of modesty in the other is that the culture the other is raised in is the standard of as I understand modesty would fall under the virtue of and would involve a habitual disposition where one does not draw undue attention to Therefore prudish people in a commune are creating a cultural  The need for normalization is across the culture falling to less than the standard is immodest Modesty is not just with regard to but all But when we typically speak of modesty that is never what it is Instead it is a matter that falls under a Victorian era woman would likely sin against modesty if she wore there would be no a Victorian era man would likely sin against modesty if he were out in his garden without a shirt not so that is precisely the I Placing modesty under justice quickly leads to a kind of tyranny of the Yes That is the exact problem and why that flawed thinking ends in burka burka burka Prudish people make the sin I do not think that one needs to bring in the account of justice in order to make standards of modesty considerate of All virtues are always understood in a social The definition of as I takes society into not so but some societies are not to be used as I am not appealing to another society especially the There are certain challenges in popular western culture because it has become acceptable many to where clothing that deliberately draws undue would be something that we could not I do think you are right that there are some cultures which are objectively and should be seen as further human development in a real The naked tribes of while in no way sinning against hardly seem something to aim In I think one can allow for broad variations in dress that will still be for are not inherently At the beach they are deliberately try to excite too much Is there a A lot has to do with the interior disposition of the wearer and behavior and Better Bull crap  Let me suggest that long dresses need not be prudish and i have observed Because some are so does not mean all Given that man has as a certain some societies better at helping man achieve his end than You are in your culture where you are at right The standard of society changes in the   Given that man has as a certain some societies better at helping man achieve his end than  for I think that polygamist societies are not as conducive to human flourishing as monogamist In it seems that women on a to suffer in attaining human What tyranny of society do you wish to impose on all I would say that monogamist societies are better than polygamist careful about the gap between is and Creating an is artificial is a certain minimal norm for modesty prerequisite to developing the more important aspects of the virtue of Simply because a monogamist society is it does not mean that one can impose monogamy from on high on a polygamist My only point is that a monogamist society comes closer to a nor form human flourishing than a polygamist No I think I am being It seems there are several aspects to be considered before wearing protection from the elements hygiene convention awareness of own or aesthetic values I think that is an excellent And add beauty of the human form  very primitive tribes cannot even conceive of very high standards of human excellence in They are too busy But remember also that modesty does not simply pertain to  As I defined it the virtue of modesty is a part of temperance whereby one does not draw undue attention to Positively one draws the right amount of at the right in the right Brides should look gorgeous and catch not so Christ on the cross is   Undo attention to Did you actually read what I Excellent Do you think that Christ was drawing undue attention to that pretty subjectively For there are women in beautiful African costume who go to mass at my Sure they draw a lot of attention because they are dressing but who is to say that it is too much or  But in are subjectively exercised and Yeah here beautiful colorful African dresses and hats mean for So there will always be a lot of gray area on what is modest and what is Externally Just like with all of Too little for milo Is my drinking a bottle of wine  you Until you try it Unless I clearly act like a drunk Thus the problem with ideal societies and modesty of the ideal do not since it is not real For the One bottle is not intemperate for in my I understand what you are Can you explain no one standard that could apply to all All of the points on dress I stated above are all Modesty concerns words and dress in Of course I am Chaucerian in that our attire reveals our character and not good for But as to an ideal standard with room for variation i think Aquinas answers For I think naturist colonies can be modest because the convention is not to wear and people get used to the sight of a lot of flabby human bodies pretty Hygiene is an issue and protection from the NUDIST naturist It seems to me that no one standard that could apply to all Is only true if you think that there are no universally applicable characteristics of human I think there Like in the monogamy polygamy while certain virtues will be expressed differently in certain it is still possible to objectively evaluate That is why I said that there is no sin against modesty in the naked tribes of I am also inclined to the position that it is easier to behave immodestly if one is not I agree with The virtues are Everyone ought to have the virtue of for But how that virtue is exercised by any given person in any given situation will necessarily differ based on their That does not make the virtue itself subjective in any One cannot avoid the connected with That is not imposed by it is said the part where you agreed with  political communities that have laws and customs that help us achieve these which are natural to are definitely superior to societies that fail to do as long as they require or a certain kind of Our political if it can even be given that has failed miserably in directing us to re Aquinas he points to a then year variation for what appears to be Is difficult to dress modesty in a culture that denies it as a virtue in any The problem is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what virtue is virtue if and rather my political community not have the power to dictate what to for so that when the leaders who are in power are we have to So the police should not have the authority to require a person walking naked down the street to cover It is one thing to say it is difficult to know where to draw the but it is quite another to say there is no such I would argue that a political community that is legislating with regard to is not adequately allowing for those thing that promote human One can promote modesty in other Certainly better We are never required to follow laws that are But simply because unjust laws can be do we want to throw out all It does not seem unreasonable to legislate AGAINST certain But even there one must be Right the political community is composed of And people Increasingly ever more To convince one must persuade Laws about what people Generally outside the extremes this is dictated by custom and not legal Law going to help you much We built the largest Catholic cradle to graduate school educational system in this It still There is a parish church in virtually every And they are all free to speak to these Note that the boundaries for engaging in what are deemed appropriate kinds of persuasion are still set by the political Politics is there even when it decides to default on a given In Aristotelian the people are the material cause of the political but the regime is the formal It shapes the people according to a even when that vision is that no one should shape anyone The Catholic Church human that has largely lost the will and the ability to speak to these persuade its because it too has been shaped by the regime principle of wrong to shape called I guess the Catholic Church will die off here then and in most I guess it survive without the force of law on its just like Jesus Too bad the Church is just too weak to change culture and I am counting on you to come to its Maybe the more radical Muslims are right and Iran is the model but just the wrong maybe just a race to take power and legislate rightly if error has no rights and it is the office of the wise to Now get sensitive on while true that modesty under justice as a particular It and every other virtue falls under justice as a cardinal I think there are two ways of presenting modesty one focuses too much on individual freedom in action and the other focuses too much on dressing as a But both aspects are Are not the Church and state partners in the need to form virtuous This does not mean a but it also does not mean the modern understanding of separation of Church and I walk away for a couple hours and I miss out on the and totalitarian religious Walking away from TNET should clearly be As a former police the last thing I would want to waste my time on is enforcement t of poor I prefer the safety of you missed it Consensus on TNET is that you must don the burka on TNET As for the culture and there is formal and informal and right application of clothing to fit the environment both in form and Isak Dinesen gives a wonderful account of the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant approach to the indigenous folks in Kenya on the issue of The Protestants tried to make them all wear The Catholics did Clearly this relates to the Catholic Protestant view of depraved for the ordered to the good for the of course cultural difference must be taken into account when it comes to modesty many have said But that is not the same thing as saying everyone should simply wear whatever he Black tie whatever you want and would be Construction Framing and finish Wear whatever you The standards will be created to the task at though I would say the standards are not Correct Form and Tuxedo do not apply Created in the sense of Not legislating My point is simply that the standards come to us from we make we discern having discerned legislation will naturally follow from that No even the nudist avoid legislating on these But the virtue of prudence is needed to know the content of that legislation and how far it can and should I lived next to Eden Sun in lake shopped next to the residents at the grocery store and Do you know what they wear in About the same quantity as anyone Why are prudish people the only ones that wish to legislate Growing up I attended A LOT of Lamaze my mom taught them in our living On a weekly basis I watched film strips of child birth and learning the There was no sense of immodesty since it was rightly ordered toward the However there is a time and place for naked folk birthing To be clear norms of modesty are governed by custom and limits set by the What limits set by the I think anything I said was against Rather I referenced particularly how all virtues are understood and practiced in a while that is important to remember how all virtues are in a sense when one is trying to distinguish virtues that can be it seems to is the mean between prudishness and lack of And I agree with claim about the norms of but I think custom is generally a part of legislation broadly I do not think it is only the prudish who want to legislate in these All parties want to even when the legislation they want is the absence of Absence of legislation is Legislation in the broadest sense precedes the particular pieces of legislation that a political community Legislation in this sense expresses and establishes the vision of the good of man that informs the particular pieces of I am thinking here of account of the art of politics and as set forth in In such an for has the force of This idea is also found in Politics when he speaks of politics as the master the architectonic art which looks to the highest good of man and orders all the lesser arts What force of law is in are the makers of H V My It is in the opening of the Ethics where Aristotle makes this point about the architectonic but the idea is certainly implicit in the As Henry V tells Kate when he proposes to kiss despite French custom to the contrary before a couple is customs curtsy to If it were not for concubisense would modesty Great I think it although I think that clothing Nudist colonies are ridiculous since they exposing the body to unnecessary risk of damage from the environment Purity as a virtue is in the control of Iran Women Dress Code Women Cloth in Iran Iranian Women Dress IRAN TOUR IRAN TRAVEL Not to distract from the modesty but a while back Michael Beitia was accusing people of being But if one recalls his original comment that brought up the whole universalism it was an argument for delayed ensoulment because of the high mortality rate of But this is obviously a The unspoken premise is that it would be unfitting for millions of young people to go to hell without a chance at Hah You have been if modesty is defined as only drawing the right amount of attention at the right moment and in the right then of course it would exist before the Where is Andrew Bring forth the great penises of western Recently had a somewhat similar discussion to this one responsibility of the state in moral matters does anyone know how many states still have legislation on the books against quite a And to those who might find that why is it illegal to steal truck but legal to steal his Why is it illegal to destroy finances but legal to destroy her I think absurd to posit modesty as completely relative to Adam and Eve had to wear No human being today is better than them in that Nudist colonies are not Just because at the all of a sudden okay to walk around in your I think Admittedly the line is incredibly hard to and does likely vary somewhat from culture to but that mean there is no modesty is clearly about more than but I find people too often use that as an excuse to act as if it have a practical reflection in how they As for the legislation it generally seems like something that the state should not be involved But I have no problem with laws against public as long as they out of The statue of David is more immodest in a leopard print thong than also note that the very same argument about modesty implies the conclusion that it might be immodest for a Saudi Arabian woman to wear anything less than a Matthew of has raised the point that persuasion is needed to resolve This may be true in but not so much when it involves sacred Dogma and On Sophistical Refutations points out that the most elementary of sophistries is to agree to a but just redefine what that Truth An example of this is to say you agree with the Dogma of the Immaculate and that there is a but then redefine what that Dogma In the Dogma teaches that the body and at the first moment of was free from any privation of sanctifying This is since Our the Divine took his human nature from His Holy Some on this thread have sought to redfine what this means by saying that Mary was Immaculate only in soul but not in in order to prove another point about human This is a heresy of It is a grave Every Catholic is obliged on pain of sin to understand what the Catholic Dogmas mean and to give assent to Mary is the Seat of Wisdom and Mirror of So why are you so critical of our attempts to understand the Catholic Bikinis not inherently As they are actually less fit for function and were soley designe for immodest I by Interesting that the Church always said it was inherently immodest for men and women to swim Daniel Lendman I think it is a misreading to say modesty is about bringing undue That is one thing modesty if you wear victorian clothes to or eccentric old timey like that is It would be immodest for a guest at a wedding to dress so as to draw attention and stand as for the It would indeed be immodest to wear ankle length dresses while and dangerous The necessity of function dictates a clothing that would be inappropriate But modesty is more than about undue That is to reduce it to the sin of or rather as the counter virtue of that It is more than the sin of singularity It does have to do with the right at the right at the right and there are objective Church was explicit about it not being culturally determined in So I am not so sure that those African tribes could be called anything other than even though they would not be accused of singularity because of the cultural The Church takes this very Though we are told to deny the immodestly dressed and in extreme cases throw them out of if this can be done without disrupting the And whilst cultural norms were the Church insisted in condemning these not saying that modesty was changing as to its but condemning the But we ignore that How about this nudity is always sinful in or in front of a member of the opposite excluding your except for grave That is taught universally in Catholic but I find even that being Bizarre how far we have fallen And yes the state has a duty to enforce public as the end of laws are virtue On a somewhat related I urge all of you never to watch Discovery or any of its affiliated channels They now air commercials almost as bad as the smut commercials of advertising explicitly only late at but you call a channel Heroes and then do that is the culture we live and are infected with Sean how is modesty absolute and not based upon It probably is partially absolute and partially based upon I accept your hug Edward Langley Although clothing lack of apart from action is not immodest in and of Hence nobody is claiming Christ is immodest on the I think probably better to relate the virtue of modesty to the act of dressing rather than to clothing Because one of the circumstances of the act of dressing is the occasion for which one And virtue is a habit upon which action not the habit in which a person and theologians make the distinctions necessary for I see none of that Even Jone draws attention to the distinction between less decent and indecent parts of the and how custom regulates the Actually he makes a few more The etc are one never to be shown without grave cause save to a breast without cover and in a public place is not The thighs are another distinction And the leg below the etc Custom wholly regulate how much is shown by being bare or by letting its figure of the The second is modesty demands that such parts not be used to draw and they are generally considered By they according to be more or less covered in certain but it is inherently more fitting that they be and not The first is always immodest Daniel Lendman mentions Yes we all know the letter of pope Nicholas to the Bulgars about women wearing while custom may allow it is inherently a more feminine and fitting form for them not such that even in certain it becomes Imagine going to a white collar event and a woman wears a morning coat and top All good Catholics should dress like  that the wear not tight fitting or thou shalt incur the wrath of doughy men in ill fitting slacks and burgundy dress The educators of the young clergy would render a more valuable and useful if they would inculcate in youthful minds the precepts of Christian which is so important for the preservation of perfect chastity and which is truly called the prudence of For modesty foresees threatening forbids us to expose ourselves to demands the avoidance of those occasions which the imprudent do not It does not like impure or loose it shrinks from the slightest it carefully avoids suspect familiarity with persons of the other since it brings the soul to show due reverence to the as being a member of and the temple of the Holy He who possesses the treasure of Christian modesty abominates every sin of impurity and instantly flees whenever he is tempted by its Modesty will moreover suggest and provide suitable words for parents and educators by which the youthful conscience will be formed in matters of as We said in a recent modesty is not to be so understood as to be equivalent to a perpetual silence on this nor as allowing no place for sober and cautious discussion about these matters in imparting moral In modern times however there are some teachers and educators who too frequently think it their duty to initiate innocent boys and girls into the secrets of human generation in such a way as to offend their sense of But in this matter just temperance and moderation must be as Christian modesty This modesty is nourished by the fear of that filial fear which is founded on the virtue of profound Christian and which creates in us utter abhorrence for the slightest as Our Clement stated in these who is chaste in flesh should not be for he should know that he owes the gift of continence to How important Christian humility is for the protection of no one perhaps has taught more clearly than perpetual and virginity above is a great good in the saints of extreme vigilance must be exercised lest it be corrupted by The more clearly I see the greatness of this the more truly do I fear lest it be plundered by thieving No one therefore protects but God Himself Who bestowed and is The guardian therefore of virginity is the habitat of this guardian is  if thy wife hath not a treadmill nor a gym wear not skirts that showeth thine For he may longeth for thy shapely being blocked by Joshua my wife had to read to me what he wrote Or the thread is I get blocking on social it just deprives you of the context of the Joshua I am surprised at your lack of I see no reason to understand modesty differently than the way I I am pretty sure I am following Thomas on I am also pretty sure that there are no binding demands on Catholics today for men and women to swim I wish we all would go back to tunics and More more more Double being So much for rational looketh upon your neighbor for certain If he be portly of stature and his skin be pale and be If he weareth ill fitting possesseth a leather bound copy of the and speaks often of his bottles of small batch these signs shalt cause you to expect comments on the length of your womanly For the frustrations of this man are and you must pity his I like going to get this Must Have Tunic Buy the Must Have Tunic now for A style you love in a print hold Just add jeans or leggings for not supposed to be here right  or maybe this Sweatshirt Tunic Buy the Sweatshirt Tunic now for A chic new shape that looks relaxed when you feel anything But going now Fashion with Safari Sunset Style We are the importer and manufacturer of Young Catholic men demanding modesty is last foothold in contemporary I have a three prong approach for you A devotion to a hobby that involve Middle Only for all that I love a good concerning to see that some of these remarkable students of Aristotle and Thomas assert a false understanding of the including the doctrine of the Immaculate or no Faith at or a rationalistic approach to the mysteries of sacred the clothes that the women wear at TAC are not beautiful at No sense of beauty and false teachings about the Make the known beautiful tac girls that dressed in beautiful So have but I have also known tac men who espouse lies about the I cherish the time I spent at Richard house singing praises to Mary from the I cherish the time I spent at Richard house watching the production of Ring  I cherish the time I spent watching the Ring Cycle illegally in someone I cherish the time I had at sipping wine but Richard Ferrier would not know a metaphor if it bit him on the and that does not discount the error of alum espousing same sex and dogmatic heresy about the I married an I married a The Taliban truly understood that law ought to be ordered towards They were trying to make Afghanistan more virtuous via an entire department of Virtue until we so rudely stopped  This Scott fellow is sounding suspiciously and ISIL makes Al Quada look like bleeding heart You guys are all Freikörperkultur the free encyclopedia Freikörperkultur is a German movement The joy of being put back into right ratio love to read about cycles and trends re prudery and acceptance of the naked human Fascinating how things change in for Andrew Vatican story re sculpture being a case in Same thing famously re many I express concerns about how a TAC scholar of Aristotle and Thomas could assert that the Immaculata was immaculate only in soul but not and how another asserts that a human clone is the same thing as an identical and you accuse me of being The If what you just said was be the first to back you you have always insisted on blurring distinctions others have made to distort TAC grads into people who fit your used to such tactics from talk show political bloggers and I expect them from a graduate of Christendom There have been a number of studies on the trend of skirt fall is back to and full though there are full length sheer options for those that prefer to show off fluorescent did those studies come with I wish to offend I just find it alarming quite how a TAC alum on this thread asserted that only but not Her was immaculately conceived in order to support a cheap crass Implying that the wives of many people in this thread wear ugly clothes is not away to avoid last time I Some graphs but mostly find Scott I too was blown away by the conversation Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth as well as the conversation about Genesis and Biblical interpretation in the Catholic only if the person asserting it knew the content of the What was in question at the point was precisely what the content of the dogma And I still understand the difficulties people were posing in either no to my denied the letter of the dogma of the they generally asked does the dogma no Catholic said that Scripture could they just pointed out that the first couple chapters of Genesis are open to a wide range of interpretations with respect to the literal sense and that they broadly fit what Plato and Platonsts term Thomas and Augustine say that the literal sense of the Scriptures is the sense found once one has interpreted any symbolic I am blown away by flat landers that deny and At least our pope is willing to offer salvation to born ever I am always around to blow people I am pretty sure I am the one that shocked when I used the term myth to talk about I also raised certain questions about the way one might understand the  To several of the best and brightest of TAC disputed the Catholic Truth that high metaphysical and moral truths cannot be known by reason alone without some admixture of In several of them do not want to name maligned this Catholuc Truth as To support this truth that grace and revelation are required to guide natural theology with error the example of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was Thomas Aquinas disagreed with this dogma because of his Aristotelean natural theology regarding the conception of In three of TACs finest argued that Mary was not immaculate in her a human person can have three and a human clone is the same thing as an identical You can attack me all you but this is demonstrative of a flawed and crass intellectual be more credible if you insist that obvious mistakes and distortions obvious mistakes or You are a crass and you are not worth And if you actually stooped to argue rather than merely I could call you a fideist and stop debating but I care about I have been called a lot of things by a lot of people things but I have never been called a crass I think we are primarily having a communication I think referring to my use of medical terminology I thought we were having a discussion the other day when I unintentionally offended you and it all went to onward and the road goes ever This thread is full of I think ever been called a universalist  I missed Go back and In response to the position that conception of body and soul occurs at the beginning of Daniel Lendman defended ensoulment and produced an article from pop science which claimed that one person may have three and asserted that a soul could be infused into a zygote after fertilization to create an identical twin because things or words to that in response to a presentation of and in defense of Edward Langley presented vulgar biological descriptions of female anatomy and an article claiming that a human clone is the same thing as an identical and in a statement of bald face Michael beitia asserted that the Immaculate Conception is immaculate only in body but not This is malformed God I do think that it is a reasonable position for someone to hold that biological conception as it is currently defined is not necessarily the same as what the Church means when it says that the Blessed Virgin was Immaculately The article about the three parents was brought to bear on a different though related point about how it seems that all that is needed for ensoulment is properly disposed Pater Edmund later linked a fascinating paper by Michael Bolin who carried this position to a rather extreme in my I find it amusing to think of Edward Langley presenting vulgar descriptions of female I still think it is reasonable to say that identical twins are essentially the same as Natural Michael did not intend to suggest and clarified his meaning later The only person I remember spouting heresy was that Peregrine Remember when he contradicted a Vatican I citation The time he stated that he held a proposition that Vatican I I also remember him explicitly contradicting Vatican I as although he might have backpedaled slightly when the source was pointed are those were both Vatican I citations he may have also contradicted this debate boils down to several TAC alum maintain the false notion that reason alone without grace and revelation can attain all natural moral truths and truths of natural theology without any trace of This has been the position held by many in this even to the point of taking sections of Vat I out of The Church teaches that revelation is necessary to guide and perfect natural This debate also boils down to the fact that several Catholics on this thread do not know what and do not know the Dogma of the Immaculate At least one of Aristotle and Thomas from TAC seeks to misdefine the dogma to suit his false This is outrageous and May God have mercy on Not what anyone an Pius IX SPECIFICALLY tells us what conception When by special creative put an soul into Read the encyclyical do I need to quote it for you obviously as all of the souls of men are specifically created by You deny Dumbass thought my ideas were but I guess they extreme As to the subject of mixed gender what are the clothing standards by which men should who sets the standards and And thus passes the My patience is Expecially as regards intentional and deliberate I was particularly deferential in the convo pointing out that I would have no problem with a different as context is ignored for the sake of My was really just that I tell if anyone had studied the Universal Catechism at a really important document and all the topics discussed are treated extensively but no one seemed to be citing It took an alum of my own Jody Haaf to really go But she is actually working at educating in the Faith as an RCIA To be fair Marie we have been citing magesterial that are the basis for the CCC per here is a Wikipedia page on hemline trend I understand But Pope Benedict so much wanted the faithful to study the CCC that he attached indulgences to the practice during the Year of Most of those questions that were being asked on Scriptural interpretation are presented in detail in the I would urge you to talk to a priest about what the Immaculate Conception It does not as is your that an immaculate soul was into This position is The Immaculate as an infallible Dogma of the means that by a singular act of Mary the Mother of God was preserved from Original Sin in her body and from the first moment of her Please consult with a holy instead of relying on your interpretation of what you read on the And please refrain from gutteral remarks or vulgar biological We are speaking about the Mother of after Thank The Immaculate as an infallible Dogma of the means that by a singular act of grace the Mother of was preserved from Original Sin in her body and at the first moment of her It does not as some have crassly that body was NOT free from Original before an of an Immaculate This is This is not the Dogma of the Immaculate The Immaculate Mary Mother of was conceived entirely without Original Sin in one Her divine Jesus the took his human nature from Her immaculate nature which is and remains immaculate in the fullest body and soul from Her Immaculate O conceived without pray for us who have recourse to what is meant by What does it mean in relation to any unborn Where in the papal documents quoted above is it I dont know what it The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary is Immaculate body and soul from the first moment of her others on this particularly Michael assert that only soul is not her He claims that her body was not freed from Original Sin until by Her immaculate This claim is heretical and I have never made this false Other Here is the Dogma from Ineffabilis and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin in the first instance of her by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty in view of the merits of Jesus the Savior of the human was preserved free from all stain of original is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the And Ineffabilis Deus describes the Immaculata holy and most pure in soul and Mary is free from every stain of and from all corruption of soul and Thank I dont think Michael denied this but I can see why you might think Ineffabilis Deus cites previous decress about infusion the into the The prescinds from this view of Ineffabilis Deus asserts that Mary was preserved from all Original and by singular and special grace was made free from every stain of and from all corruption of soul and Michael Beitia did say above that the Immaculate Conception means that only soul was immaculate and infused into a This is NOT the The reference to infusion in the encyclical Ineffabilis Deus is merely a citation of a prior decree which was not the Beitia did say and above he maintains that heretical the reason I think he said is because he said others on this thread have said that a human clone and an identical twin are the same thing Other TAC alum have asserted that all metaphysical truths and truths of natural theology can be known without error by reason even to the point of taking Vat I out of This contradicts Catholic Truth which holds that grace and revelation are required to ensure that reason may proceed completely without error in areas pertaining to high moral truths and Others have denied that Thomas rejected the Dogma of the Immaculate others have said it is possible for a child to have three Others from TAC have promoted Buddhist and false theories of and have supported a moral basis for same sex When questioned on these they deny ever making thse even though they are in They Were Both Were Not The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual by Mariana One of the thesis titles in the slideshow just to bring it all full circle Nudity as the highest material object of visual really Nudity is precisely why art conceals The next thing you students will be sunbathing nude as an Funny thing to seeing as one of the oldest art objects in the world is the Venus of I forgot that your interpretation of dogmas is right because you assert Notice the difference between and not the same But the nude study is really quite central to the history of You really deny that I know you might well try also like to note that JPII personally had the clothing painted onto figures in the murals is this how it See a picture of the statue of pull a verse from the Bible and write Objects of practice are not the Clearly depictions of the nude are not the highest form of visual depictions of Mary and salvific images are the highest form of visual  Mariana father is an excellent artist even the greatest living although I might be and Mariana had a first class training in the visual arts long before she went to I have read the whole It does not prescind from prior teaching but affirms it And Beita well cited That part clearly refers to the first moment of the infusion of the I dont think it is The references to corruption and purity do not seem to refer to refer so much to the conception as later or rather her whole Via Dolorosa CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ARTIST And I am merely restating the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the teaching if Ineffabilis Mother of was Immaculately Conceived all in one soul and at her This is the teaching of the not my reiteration of I am merely asserting it again and again because you do not seem to get it or assent to TAC totally corrupts the I be surprised if students snuck out after curfew to swim nude in the what does conception the crucial question been ignoring for hundreds and hundreds of tag or not to Ha ha Freikorperkultur Monica Rebecca Laura De that is Mary was Immaculately Conceived body and all at at the very first moment of her at her This is what the Church I am sorry you see it Conception is the first moment of Apropos of not too Mariana also painted gorgeous botanical studies for work too late for them to retract our what do you mean by moment of Conception for the Immaculate Conception was the first moment of her immaculate body and First moment of being means the first moment of existence for matter and Both immaculate for in one divine This is the Not but the saying that matter had absolutely nothing to do with the conception of  So much those As we left our welcome party by Vinnie and thoroughly inebriated and then went to swim in the NO ONE has dissented from the only from your But dating myself the Very Matter from Anne and at moment of became with both Was Joachim really We almost The alcohol kept us warm  Joachim was Daniel you mean helped freeze you I am simply stating Catholic not my opinion of You can disagree with it if you but at least know what it but in normal generation being a parent means providing matter some to receive the human The terror of expulsion is also good for Not really we do not really know We All these annoying upperclassmen came by and tried to compel us to get out of the but we the immodesty of a swimming I never I got to bathe up by the punchbowls one so I lived a go ahead and deny years of swimming parties are clearly mandated by tradition at the end of Senior No one objected in Just claim to be Everybody just has to wear their academic the modest I am not denying anything that science has but science has not proven what you think it has Being a parent means providing matter which becomes new matter at at the same time with a called into being at the same moment as the soul This is I was just thinking of mentioning the but academic gowns would do just as when you quote the no When you add The biological theory of generation you are using is a that is true in some But also and basically philosophy that matter is the only thing that persists through like a unisex burqini BURQINI SWIMWEAR offers a wide array of affordable swim We offer two types of I am quoting what the Church Mary is the Immaculate She was conceived body and soul and mind in one At her Not understanding Not studying dogma at Catholic I dislike the your mind is certainly not all there in actuality at Our point has been that if means the first moment in which the human then nothing said so far contradicts the dogma you keep Dogma does not say immaculate soul was infused into fallen human To assert this is a Neither is your Nothing seduces like Because none of us have ever claimed that a human ever existed with a body or Beitia and others assert that immaculate soul was infused into matter that was not Beiatia See Please do not deny your previous Depends what you mean by Look there had to be some matter out of which Mary came to But that matter body in any relevant sense until her soul was too it means that you claimed only her soul was It is clear you do not know what the Dogma What do you think it Her soul did not make her body Got If you mean that matter had been prepared to receive then we say that there must have been some preexisting matter that was marked out by natural causes to be the matter for a new If you mean the matter that is the matter of a human none of us has said that that matter could exist before the creation of What do you mean What does the Dogma mean to names the ensouled body considered as distinct from the human soul informing Without out really being Beitia said that immaculate soul informed what was the matter that became her This is not the pray what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception If the body you keep talking we all agree that that came to be at the moment her soul was Can you even consider them as Edward please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception heroic efforts and but I think this is going What is the problem with saying that was when the sperm met the WHAT IS IMMACULATE I missed that dogma please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception read all the comments but I can go do so None of us has any real objection to our main contention is that the dogma commit us to any particular view of the relation between the fertilization of the egg and the of the the question of is the soul is not bound to a specific view of what happens in should I catch Did anything interesting happen today besides the modesty it means that when a came to she was free from all stain of sin in both body and Not that I can although a distinction was made between modesty as conceived as a virtue of clothing modesty conceived as a virtue governing the act of But I suppose that just We are still waiting for Edward Langley to state what he thinks the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means that all of Mary came into existence at body and matter and and this was her conception and she at this first moment of her existence in both body and by a special act of preserved from body and not just Joshua Kenz posted some thoughts on too I just did four or five comments just saw guess read it And ensoulment is a And Thomas opposed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception because of his theory of This proves that some metaphysical truths may not be held without error by reason He may have given arguments from his theory of but as repeated over and it seem that his theory of generation entails a position on the Immaculate Scott Ed said what his view was like three comments was Mary saved by Passion and error implies an  Not false at all And what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception We are Dang I wanted to be Why you stop and read the various comments just my timing is awesome but I If you read what I just have to start antagonizing Samantha about how Aristotle really did think that God was at least one since I first posted before I realized my darn pumpkin Or maybe we could talk about theory of the You can edit So I would just like to open up the thread here to some NFL Did anyone see the Cowboys what do you think the Immaculate Conception Thomas denied the Immaculate Conception because he thought that soul was immaculate enough and would have made the rest of her fully This is and it This is not what the Church The Church teaches that Mary was immaculate in body and soul at the same moment by the same one and this was the first moment of her being in both body and NFL is officially only repeating myself it means that when a came to she was free from all stain of sin in both body and Edward Langley does not know is tsk and I have go go say the Good since there were ladies talking about fancy boots on here I am not sure anything is legitimately off Is there anything legitimately The ponds were  that is Good Good We permitted the discussion of boots on this Harry Enfield Women know your limits Hilarious clip from Harry Enfield and Chums What are you like the prefects The I like this turn of events at all I have read essay about Thomas on ensoulment and am more confused Might be the whiskey sour Does anyone have a good brandy Under I also have read what he wrote about the virgin birth and I have so many more things to say about actually read it Courvoisier is just about and is at the very Not really a brandy person myself have to pass Christian Brothers bad for but not sure if exactly Get yourself some girl brandy is for egg nog only But does not prove the theory of ensoulment into The Dogma does not imply this at Cheap tend to be much worse than cheap rums or true dat You can get solid whiskey for depending on the state you live in Scoresby just be It tastes like cheap scotch with liquid smoke added for I am starting on brandy and then we will see if I can get over to whiskey at some not a huge liquor brandy is the only thing liked so Scott is an Get a nice bourbon or Those are I find bourbon harder to like than Jameson or Johnny get out I like He keeps asserting I said something I because he has an ax to grind Ensoulment God creates all human souls and infuses them into matter BVM was free from sin from the first moment of her that is when God placed her soul into matter when that was is subject to It just took me longer to like He refuses to engage but smears me when busy watching Dallas get blown out it might be dangerous to say all human souls and infuses them into heard people fuss about how this what but rather God creates the soul in the Bulleit The creation of the soul is special act of God independent of biology And nobody me to do I talk about what I want on this what you think let you think that all is permitted by special act of TNET scary synchronicity If nobody stopped me when I brought up skinny I think pretty much off the leash the jokes write themselves Nina Notice how we just sorta moved right Google Earth has ruined the future of nude I said That scared Scott away for a must have missed a lot over the last few The funny thing last night my wife and I went for our evening constitutional while we came up with some very good reasons for ensoulment to be contemporaneous with But if just supposed to be whatever I also said and of my favorite topics you need to bust out with I think take it well from me up been saving good Back to football and beer you think take it well from More like I just saw online that the Broncos are giving the Colts a good working TNET is beyond It contains offensive and within   got this article supposed to be editing waiting for Caleb to be done carefully curating his books that moved before he posts it to He does not know what the top of your Procrastination is the I told him he put on the list but he disagrees Why like saying Corpus of I mean too cheating But actually a and was intended to be a but soooooOOOOOoooOOOOOoo long Could he have put of the A History of the Peoples Birth of Britain The New World guessing you put it on your books that moved One last There is no mention of in the dogma of the Immaculate and Thomas rejected the Dogma for several flawed Study your I see point If I were to focus in on what part of the Summa really stuck with me I would say something like QQ I admit it sounds but still sure you want to say that history has anything like the immense breadth of topics that the Summa has The best thing I ever did after leaving TAC was reading through the first or so questions in the parts on last end and the parts on the stages of a voluntary The one giant lacuna in philosophy course is a discussion of the appetites from the perspective of natural While the ST exactly natural that section helped me clarify how the appetites I kinda wish we read it instead of the Treatise on still for your discussion of how all men were saved by Passion and how that works in the case of the Immaculate I put off editing this paper any I promised the author I would give him my comments by the stop back later if I finish early enough funny That was the same reason why Thomas rejected the Immaculate Terms like fertilization and and crass physiology from hip have nothing to do with the You seem like medieval You should allow your bodies to be ensouled by You realize that heretical to deny that all men were saved by Passion and  read that in a universalist I was slightly sloppy in my crass What I meant was heretical to deny that everyone who is saved is saved by Passion and What is he talking Christ died for all so in that sense right He means talking about female anatomy in relation to the dogma of the virgin the I think he might have meant And maybe  Well I claiming the through stuff had anything to do with IC I think he might be confusing our discussion of the Virgin Birth with that of the Best Hodor I the Immaculate Conception was a grace wrought through sacrifice please do not speak of physiology in relation to the mysteries of the Most Holy Mother of This is did you come from the Victorian Era in a time Aquinas does speak of physiology in reference to such things and the Tradition is full of disputes about exactly what physiological happenings are implied by the dogmas about the Blessed Virgin and the This doctrine from Trent raises the single greatest difficulty for defending the Immaculate causes of this justification the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of who is the pledge of our the meritorious cause is His most beloved only our Lord Jesus when we were for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the the instrumental cause is the sacrament of which is the sacrament of without which no man was ever justified the single formal cause is the justice of not that by which He Himself is but that by which He makes us with which we being endowed by are renewed in the spirit of our and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are receiving justice within each one according to his own which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He and according to each disposition and For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are yet this takes place in that justification of the when by the merit of the most holy the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the of those who are justified and inheres in whence man through Jesus in whom he is receives in that together with the remission of all these infused at the same hope and Feil I am resolved not to get sucked into the but the whiskey discussion Your Whiskey Is Probably From a Factory Distillery in Indiana The artisan whiskey industry has a big Feil No idea how reliable the article If Mary never was subject to she would not have needed salvation and thus Christ would not have justified her but Trent teaches us that every man must be justified by Passion and solution is but not sure if he says that we must divide the instant so that at one and the same moment of her she was subject to sin and neading salvation and saved from all taint of with this may explain his understanding of Faith enlightening reason which I understand primarily as the dogmas we assent to safeguarding us from Scott seems to regard it as an infusion of grace that protects one from just a big spoil sport Ed you seem to be a clone of Neanderthal and medieval Did they use matter in your actually deeply troubled by Read put away the The whiskey I mean pretty sure I am not a got three kids and a Three is just about the limit for It has never been Catholic tradition to discuss Mary in the crude and presumptuous way that you That is if all those Fathers Marie was talking about actually said all that stuff about the Virgin then it was in fact Catholic tradition some On the Augustine says de addressing himself to the conceiving thou wast all in giving birth thou wast without I answer The pains of childbirth are caused by the infant opening the passage from the Now it has been said above Replies to that Christ came forth from the closed womb of His without opening the Consequently there was no pain in that as neither was there any on the there was much joy therein for that born into the according to Isaiah the it shall bud forth and and shall rejoice with joy and Reply to Objection The pains of childbirth in the woman follow from the mingling of the Wherefore after the sorrow shalt thou bring forth the following are thou shalt be under thy as Augustine says de from this sentence we must exclude the of she conceived Christ without the defilement of and without the stain of sexual therefore did she bring Him forth without without violation of her virginal without detriment to the purity of her suffered but through His own spontaneous in order to atone for not as a necessary result of that for He was not a debtor unto Reply to Objection As His Christ our of the Mass in so by His pains He freed us from our and so He wished to die a painful But the pains in childbirth did not concern who came to atone for our And therefore there was no need for His Mother to suffer in giving Reply to Objection We are told that the Blessed Virgin herself up in swaddling the Child whom she had brought laid Him in a Consequently the narrative of this which is is Wherefore Jerome says midwife was no officious women She was both mother and swaddling says wrapped up the and laid Him in a These words prove the falseness of the apocryphal just silly to think that statements about bodily processes are too dirty to attribute to the Blessed Mother or Christ who like us in all things but The first question you should ask yourself before charging someone with obscenity is was the occasion for this why do you keep responding to this He has repeatedly and in the clearest terms shown that he is either incapable of or not interested in participating in rational He has interrupted actual conversation with baseless slurs and accusations of thus revealing his genuine He has needlessly denigrated the Common Doctor in fruitless attempts to support his risible fideistic and rejected the notion of faith seeking understanding in pursuit of the same He has made absurd displays of purported piety in order to cast aspersions on legitimate and honest theological He has repeatedly and baselessly insulted the men and women in this conversation as concerns their and moral I realize that there is some occasional measure of entertainment to be found in his but to encourage this behavior seems more likely to be a spiritual hindrance than a help to The man needs not argument but you sound like a very proud I just find it tragic when Catholics scream like furies at the smallest of perceived yet you use the most vulgar terminology when speaking of the why do you feel it necessary to attack TNET DNFTT is a well measured Scott when it comes to certain dogmas you make unfounded attacks of Your other posts are at times amusing and even But if you continue I will soon block I dont doubt your Faith but your zeal is There have been any number of fascinating topics on this thread that could serve to keep it without feeding the Even apart from concern for his a pity to see these I attack no Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Others on this thread have stated opinion about the Dogma which is clearly Some of the language you have used to discuss the Virgin Mary is vulger and You seem to embrace your own frail understanding of medieval theologians over the guidance and Dogmas of Holy Mother the This is hardly So why do you attack why do you not just censor and prove you are hardly American as I am too busy to discuss the sacred with crude people like some of May God have mercy on attack no and are hardly in the same Please explain anything that was  The vulgar physiological descriptions used in your discussion of the mysteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary are I have been attacked by several TAC alum for pointing out that Thomas erred in his understanding of the Immaculate This is not a denigration of but Others on this thread have claimed or implied that the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is necessitated by This is Ensoulment is a The Dogma is de For all I have been personally attacked and threatened with The threat is and Not seeing how and the is any less vulgar than the foreskin of your in the literal sense of the word vulgar at medical talking about popping which would be crass and In any I know how a discussion of virginity and after birth can occur without some discussion of physiological Always been curious about Catholic teaching on This is enitirely sad and God have mercy on It is clear that you have had very little introduction to Catholic theological and dogmatic especially those which involve the Immaculate Conception and Virgin and how to Social media is no You talk trash like a bunch of go back under your go to   Theological when Christ was presented in the was his foreskin Is it hidden in some momentary if Scott Weinberg drops dead from I blame I think Scott thinks in it is inappropriate to try to understand mysteries both singly and in relation to each bringing in physiological details to discuss the implications of the Virgin Birth is did you go to or graduate from Thomas Aquinas  I think that question is probably Mostly because I see any consideration of it in theological But For a better crowd to discuss Your We could go maybe three thousand comments on that a few breaks to talk about skirts and Ok so it theological per se bringing such terminology into discussion on the Topic of the Theotokos is by definition obscene and inappropriate and not funny in any Shame on My main objection to question had to do with making jokes about holy the question of the consequences of the Virgin Birth has a long history in theological One someone is going to tell me that Scott Weinberg is a hilarious and that all of his boorish bullying is just a giant really just a great guy who pretends to be horrible as a way to entertain his old buddies on I kind of think that might be the Can anyone confirm or Until I figure any of this Speaking of in the Hebrew text where it is talking about slaying all the men of Jericho the text literally all those who urinate against the Oh those  Penance is being tagged in a comment on TNET  And Scott you been to the campus The women wear beautiful I even see one jumper nor a denim I was most impressed by the upgrade in the fashions since the to is pretty much the worst thing that one could desire for another  No Aaron he is for Let the word of Christ dwell in you in all teaching and admonishing one another in and spiritual singing in grace in your hearts to Kathleen Wilson Last time I checked out this thread everyone was playing so nicely as I said I did go there and my senior thesis was on category and in particular on rationality necessitating clothing before the But not for but missed so much in your Hi Kathy start Lol Brian Dragoo or someone else should post a link to his talk on vulgar  so proud of you Did I miss the very yes Just scrolled up comments to find the original hymen and found the relevant magisterial quotations thanks in which the possibility of being born without a hymen at all Developments of modern science to some affect our understanding of the The phrase perhaps reflects a lack of understanding about variations in female variations including the and The Schoolmen comments on ASSUME a universal and shape of the and must therefore address the issues which a must But as far as I it an article of faith to believe that Mary was born with any sort of hymen at makes the whole doctrine of perpetual virginity a lot easier to And lest anyone think the above comment is too shocking for rational bear in mind that our bodies are and wonderfully and that knowledge and discussion about the female body in no way precludes respect for its structure and the Church was very deliberate in defining the perpetual Virginity of the Mary during and after giving It follows that even the physical not signs of her virginity are I think in defining the doctrine there is something regardless of the misunderstandings of the council fathers had with respect to the intricacies of female I would argue that the physical signs of the blessed virgin more perfectly express her role as Sign and Exemplar of the the Lord said to This gate shall be it shall not be and no man shall pass through because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by and it shall be Ezk Daniel I was on my way to I do want you to think hard about what customary standards imply about a stance on You get the customs we have without being Same went for the Hawaiians and their promiscuous sexuality Or you sure you want a boatload of I know want to quote from as I presume you read the pertinent passages and somehow missed what and say Prümmer or Jone or Merkelbach or Tanquery saw in them Would you accept any of If did you want the Would you dismiss the Congregation of the Decree of January Or the Congregation for August which explicitly condemns the current custom in if custom makes it not then Benedict XV was such an idiot in Sacra condemning things that had ceased to be because Frankly I am shocked by you taking such a modernist take And I am not using that word lightly For further I will reproduce what Prümmer Jone is but I him handy and he does tend to be legalistic And bikinis were explicitly designed to be even if the sin of singularity is what you reduce modesty is often more A bikini not only shows a it is seductive in the little it hides and is made to draw the There is a reason there are nude and topless joints and bikini joints places to ogle But found the me a bit thank you for the homework I do not mean that I will take a look at those texts when I can find them and when I get a I am at that you would be shocked that I would have a modernist Scott would just assume it of I only ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt for now as I am earnest in my pursuit of the truth and I am willing to be corrected if I am in My position is largely based on the following texts which I am putting in English for the sake of I answer It is not in the outward things themselves which man that there is but on the part of man who uses them This lack of moderation occurs in two in comparison with the customs of those among whom one wherefore Augustine says offenses which are contrary to the customs of are to be avoided according to the customs generally so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of whether citizen or For any which harmonizeth not with its is the lack of moderation in the use of these things may arise from the inordinate attachment of the the result being that a man sometimes takes too much pleasure in using either in accordance with the custom of those among whom he dwells or contrary to such Hence Augustine says must avoid excessive pleasure in the use of for it leads not only wickedly to abuse the customs of those among whom we but frequently to exceed their so whereas it lay while under the restraint of established it displays its deformity in a most lawless In point of this inordinate attachment occurs in three First when a man seeks glory from excessive attention to in so far as dress and such like things are a kind of Hence Gregory says xl in are some who think that attention to finery and costly dress is no if this were no the word of God would not say so expressly that the rich man who was tortured in hell had been clothed in purple and fine No seeks costly as exceeds his for when a man seeks sensuous pleasure from excessive attention to in so far as dress is directed to the when a man is too solicitous Question Article in his attention to outward Accordingly Andronicus reckons three virtues in connection with outward namely which excludes the seeking of wherefore he says that humility is habit of avoiding excessive expenditure and Question Objection which excludes the seeking of sensuous wherefore he says that is the habit that makes a man satisfied with what is and enables him to determine what is becoming in his manner of to the saying of the food and wherewith to be with these let us be which excludes excessive solicitude about such wherefore he says that is a habit that makes a man contented with what he In the point of deficiency there may be inordinate attachment in two through a neglect to give the requisite study or trouble to the use of outward Wherefore the Philosopher says that is a mark of effeminacy to let cloak trail on the ground to avoid the trouble of lifting it by seeking glory from the very lack of attention to outward Hence Augustine says in Monte that only the glare and pomp of outward but even dirt and the weeds of mourning may be a subject of all the more dangerous as being a decoy under the guise of and the Philosopher says that excess and inordinate defect are a subject of In the next those women who have no husband nor wish to have or who are in a state of life inconsistent with cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see because this is to incite them to And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to they sin whereas if they do so from or from vanity for the sake of it is not always but sometimes And the same applies to men in this Hence Augustine says ccxlv ad do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to should think how they may please whereas the others think on the things of the either husbands how they may please their or wives how they may please their except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their since the Apostle commands them to cover the Yet in this case some might be excused from when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary although such a custom is not to be the standards for what excites men to lust in many culturally and societally Not but I would that even Bikinis on the do not do much to incite men to But even here one must be because not all Bikinis are the Some certainly seemed designed to do exactly that cursory glance at headlines from the Daily Mail confirms I only meant to express by the word swimming attire for women with brief style bottoms and bra styled tops with exposed In conclusion I would say that you are right to identify many of trends to be motivated by a sense of I would hold that it has largely become normative in our society that it is acceptable to incite the opposite sex to lust through dress and Such dress and behavior must be As said many things which incite to lust are simply culturally find the on eath does he deal with the Jone distinction para is between indecent parts Aquinas refers to as less becoming and always Those parts that are the privates it is always a mortal sin to expose to another of another unless for grave reason or to Also inherently immodest to draw attention to those As I have Jone but I am certain of the distinction and often in other I have found I can pick another moralist if you would At least PM me if you find the relevant I would be very interested in the It might have to be computer is balking at PDFs right and most of my hardbacks are in In the I finally found Pius XII here people quote him on but never give a is always difficult to indicate with universal norms the between seemliness and shamelessness because the moral evaluation of attire depends on many the relativity of fashions with respect to and education is not a valid reason to renounce a priori a moral judgment on this or that fashion for the time violates the limits of normal no matter how broad and changeable the relative morals of styles may there is always an absolute norm to be kept after having heard the admonition of conscience warning against approaching style must never be a proximate occasion of garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt but according to the aspirations of a society which prizes the dignity and seriousness of its public It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and The sound consistency of your principles will be put to the test by the modern which cannot bear And it will be tried by the same indifference of many toward the moral consideration of The most insidious of sophisms are usually repeated to justify immodesty and seem to be the same One of these resurrects the ancient saying ab assuetis non fit passio passions are not aroused by things we are accustomed in order to brand as the rebellion of honest people against fashions which are too Must it perhaps be shown how out of place the ancient saying is in such When We spoke of the absolute limits to be defended in the relativism of We mentioned the unfounded character of another fallacious opinion according to which modesty is no longer appropriate in the contemporary era which has now become free of all useless and ruinous It can certainly be conceded that there are different degrees of public morality according to the the and the conditions of the civilization of individual But this does not invalidate the obligation to strive for the ideal of perfection and is not a sufficient reason to renounce the high degree of morality that has been and which manifests itself precisely in the great sensitivity with which consciences regard evil and its wish there were a better found it in AAS but why translate that when another has done Maybe this makes it clear that while I am certainly with you on some an article of designed to and in accordance with that end was named after the site of the testing of the hydrogen and which is less functional and worse as swimwear than say or even more modest two pieces I figure I have no warrant to quote from the American who did explicitly mention men exiting the house without a shirt on as horrible as I mock those same bishops for condemning ballroom It does seem you may be using bikini to mean I am not sure what sense the Church had in mind among very few specific fashions that it did so it condemned bikinis hot It was with the first Miss World and Pius XII helped get the garment outlawed in many Fashions Reported in Osservatore November Italian Translation based in part on one released by News the notion of an intact hymen as a sign of physical virginity has largely been discredited by medical professionals precisely for the reasons According to recent for less than half of all women bleed when they first have and even an examination of the hymen itself by a physician cannot determine whether sex has the presence of a hymen is not a physical sign of virginity in any including the The articulation of the doctrine as far as I can stems from a misunderstanding of female and a dangerous association between virginity and the presence of the we think more carefully about the phrase INTACTA in we can develop a slightly different understanding of the meaning by any man is not problematic for And meaning or is not problematic if we dismiss the presence of a hymen or if we consider that the hymen can or that the female body is capable of a tortuous degree of stretching and changing during For labor to happen painlessly and without tearing is quite miraculous The advantages of the explanation I offer is that it avoids assuming the existence of something whose existence ought not to be avoids the and irrelevant association of the hymen with physical and preserves the important part of the that Mary knew no man and that hence father was Whether or not the men who wrote the doctrine intended this or another understanding of the word is perhaps analogous to how ecclesiam nulla can be without changing the original And as for the passage from one need to interpret it she can her womb to men by her own free Both Augustine and Aquinas were well aware that the hymen could be broken in other Aquinas explicitly says that when that happens it has no bearing on Only when broken through intercourse does it haev a and an accidental one at that And Vatican condemnation of the evolution of dogmas prevents us from giving a sense other than that which was meant at the to this or any other dogma is a can of worms a rabbit hole that should be avoided unless it can get central I hate that this thread has some good discourse going on There is no way I can catch up even during night time I realize that A A made that But unless I missed something in the quotations I see any evidence that they were aware that a woman could be born without a hymen at this rather than the perforation of the which has a bearing on interpreting the word A man can be born with or see no bearing merely because some women lack a hymen Because if the BVM had no then giving birth the sense of being makes much more sense than if she had a and somehow a baby had to get through it without breaking Given the doctrine as an article of it makes more sense to interpret it in a way that makes sense with what we know about mine is a more palatable explanation of the doctrine in the context of when people are curious about what they must believe as a I see that my explanation is heretical in any though it does demand less of the believer in terms of what is to be I think your argument is very it does seem that your position would challenge the position on the of I gave what might be described as a argument for the fittingness of the Blessed Virgin possessing even the accidental physical the position that I laid out make better sense of the dogma and the While at the same it does not violate anything proven by So granted that Ezekiel need to be interpreted that there a greater fittingness if the physical signs were I do think that the way interpreting it is closer to what the themselves would have my point is that what they believed about female anatomy was proffered textual evidence that an article of faith to believe THAT Mary had a we have the phrase but the word mean a It as I have be interpreted in a way that aligns with modern medical I reject the phrase accidental or non since I have there are no true physical signs of in the case of a woman who has no hymen to start I can understand your point about the and genuinely interested in figuring out whether my interpretation of the doctrine would be doctrinally Aside from never this issue discussed but I think it is an important topic especially given contemporary feminist criticisms of the historical fixation on the hymen as a proof of curious about how pushing an lb baby through a thin membrane without tearing it would be explicable without violating what we know from the dogma mentions explicitly that Mary was virgin the birth of Unless one would hold that they were attempting to exclude the possibility that someone was having sexual intercourse with the Virgin during then it seems that we are forced to accept that it is Dogma that the Virgin has a hymen and that it is still I that though the Council Fathers may have erred in their understanding of female the Holy Spirit allowed this formulation and it seems we are bound to find a ratio for I will not use the phrase physical signs any longer in order to not I think one can legitimately talk about something being a even if that sign is not a necessary Here is John Paul catechesis on perpetual THE CHURCH PRESENTS MARY AS perpetual virginity was the subject of the Holy catechesis at the General Audience I posted a quote from that earlier eternal It seems to be more ordered toward answering those certain protestants that believe that the BVM had other The is never addressed This is really an issue of Mary being Theotokos and is more about special privileges being given to her than making implications about other Going to but using the writings on the Sacred Heart have a lot to do with what was not assumed would not be Mary would not have been missing a body part or it would not have been The whole point is that the Blessed Virgin is the new Mother of all the and her Son the new Something supernatural is beyond nature science will be technically with miraculous occurrences and the birth is referred to as miraculous and mysterious and without injury I think probably the best way to understand Mark Shea rounds up some texts on Patheos pertinent than the ewtn and more damning to my I stand corrected Way back in August I wrote concerning the in partu inviolability of Our Lady that her hymen Going back to Michael discuss St argument that the vast majority of people got to and that this manifests justice better than if more people were who destroyed in himself a good which might have been became worthy of eternal Hence the whole mass of the human race is for he who at first gave entrance to sin has been punished with all his posterity who were in him as in a so that no one is exempt from this just and due unless delivered by mercy and undeserved and the human race is so apportioned that in some is displayed the efficacy of merciful in the rest the efficacy of just For both could not be displayed in for if all had remained under the punishment of just there would have been seen in no one the mercy of redeeming on the other if all had been transferred from darkness to the severity of retribution would have been manifested in But more are left under punishment than are delivered from in order that it may thus be shown what was due to And had it been inflicted on no one could justly have found fault with the justice of Him who takes in the deliverance of so many from that just there is cause to render the most cordial thanks to the gratuitous bounty of Him who Dei Is he how did I get to be a and Augustine is maybe I simply disagree with the Fathers and leave it at have to go through that Patheos article and about the excerpts Unless stop using a phrase you think has merit because worried about offending me or anyone I think all pretty good at disagreeing with each other without letting feelings get in the Michael I accussed you whilst you were off watching I saw the I disagree with your but thought the comment more humor than and unlike a I have no problem saying that if that is the case that ensouled zygotes pass with the menstrual unbeknownst to the have original and consequently do go to hell with Hitler and Judas I have lots to say about Pater but it will have to wait til nap Labor me vocat it seems I have a Augustine has to be right that all humanity is justly and God would be just to leave any great or of us to The problem to me comes in with these arguments about why God allows most to be First of he is assuming something we namely that most are not justice is more than amply displayed in Scripture is clear that God desires all men to be saved Timothy He did not send his son to die for us merely to display his justice and but because he loves explanation seems to leave that be leery of writing explanation seems to leave that this and probably four pages of lead up and four pages afterward that qualifies exactly what he and to what position he is read a lot of Augustine and I think he ever accounts for Timothy in a satisfactory how do you account for given But my point is about the specific argument Pater Edmund posted I feel the need to offer an account for history of course simply suggesting that a time element here between sacrifice for all Paul writing that God wants all men to come to knowledge of and then the knowledge of sacrifice being carried to the four corners of the Seems I can see TNET while others It appears to be available still here in Haha Because you were tagged in the status now just you and me in an empty Hall of statues maybe we should try like Michael Beitia It is like Narnia in I wonder what happens if we Neverending OH MAN THIS JUST GOT RECURSIVE AGAIN BUT IN A WHOLE NEW WAY hey Matthew Peterson I heard you like TNET so I put TNET in your TNET so you can TNET while you TNET looks like the Zuckerberg done took away all our Panama Willie Nelson The Over Track of the LP BUT BEFORE THE LAST LIGHTS ARE this being largely one of them TAC only fitting to pour some whiskey on it and piss out all the The Parting Glass Peter Hollens Creed Album Be they can all see your footprints or they will see them tonight when I reopen the Until The canvas is yours If they are from presumably they will be glad that at least one of us did the I closed TNET as part of an experiment I will reopen it tonight You should wait three It would be more Maybe I will select people like you every so often to write on the canvas Except that if you were to wait three I fear that Edward Langley would dissolve from Hilarious that you are still Fitting since you started in a put this on I posted a you started a the two are The only time your nerdfest line has been mentioned is when I mentioned once that no one had mentioned So Yeah it was the flame having lit the was and everyone on this thread has been the theology doobies ever I reposted a link you A link pretty sure I posted earlier along with everyone else months Who am I to argue with what sprang Like a bizarre growth from a Sickening but you look The tension between naive TACers trying to reason with trollery proves More like an explosion in a fireworks factory but and every time it seems to another box And eternal And that name is TNET TNET is from Infinite thanks for screwing with all of now I forgot what essential point I was about to make So where were I am actually curious if TNET can pick itself up Matthew Peterson was just hiding this the whole And note how long I held My willpower must be not going to do but maybe some ambitious soul could tag everyone back into Or we could get I at not a life I really want to live also wondering what exactly this I wonder if I can nest the thread on my wall into a comment were about to start arguing about marriage and the I am an hopeless I thought I was But then pater made an interesting comment and that was I am afraid they will have to pry TNET from my cold dead As for I should start back scrolling and unliking every one of his you need to like them all so that he gets moar notifications So here is something that my father wrote on the olive tree bed in the Odyssey that I posted on Michael ersatz for The Neverending of the archetypal power of this scene is that the marriage bed itself serves as great sign of recognition between husband and wife after their just as it had been the sign of their union twenty years The center post of the a living Olive tree rooted in the expresses the stability of the interior space created by Odysseus built the bed with his own hands in such a way that it cannot be The wedding chamber in the Odyssey is part of a large the royal in which there is room for many The great good of a central good in Homer and the whole tradition of the belongs to the very nature of spousal By its innermost the space which love creates for itself is not a space for the spouses From the very center of this from the bed and the conjugal a larger space is in which there is room for children and other And then Joel HF saying bit of a to put it at least as far the bed and the conjugal are This act and this place are of their nature and not And then I posted the continuation of the above comprehensive power of the conjugal act seems to be the reason for a curious way of speaking characteristic of this vision of the natural end or good of sex is the procreation and education of Thomas end which nature intends from within sex is the procreation and education of How does sex educate Not as an educational That much is The point the power of sex in building an intimate the core of a larger in which children can be welcomed as grow and be In the this intimate space is brought out negatively by the absence of Odysseus during childhood and It is brought out positively by faithfulness to it during the same twenty despite the pressure of her many decisively important factor in growth into a mature It is in this manner that sex is unitively The union it produces is an open union that leads of itself to hospitality for children and other One can see this essential role of procreation both from the side of the children and from the side of the From the side of the the wider space of a home that is built up from the more intimate space created by the love of husband and wife is exactly the space children They need it to be conceived in a way fitting for they also need it to grow and receive their education in the right in a house animated by a spirit of From the side of the the gift of children completes and fulfills the interior space of union which their love The pain of couples who are unable to have children is a testimony to the greatness and joy of this despite the labors and difficulties that come with are you taking metaphorically in to sense of or in the Heideggerian clearing is all private goods ordered to common goods in some way or And procreation is decidedly a private I also at least not why STA must be taken as saying that when he says that end which nature intends from within sex is the procreation and education of all private goods are ordered to a common Maybe you could say more about what he means by not read Children are not a private Neither have In so far as the conjugal act is they My seed If you I can start pulling up biological papers on how male animals compete to impregnate the There is strong evidence that this is true even in In other children may be a common but this woman having my son her having some other Fair something Odysseus definitely but since the child is the production of it be do you the suitors still not What is the the child is the production of it be being so You fail to note that Thomas Aquinas College requires more years in the study of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas than most colleges require I would be particularly interested in reading Caitlin The it refers to the exclusion of the or like you child not which Odysseus understands given his treatment of the Children are especially All other external goods may be taken But paternity tell that to the Social Security a defect in our laws that sees nothing as private or off limits to the I think the Roman law is better if not entirely The state long ago crossed and transgressed the you think marriage should be cum manu or trouble Anyways marriage law and marriages are pretty screwed not to mention family Discussion is impossible because of Livy reported that there was no record of divorce for the first years the records had been destroyed at the sacking of the   After our duty to God comes that to our The filial bonds have been If the Romans it was less than ours which has unbound all ties while leaving the individual entirely at the mercy disposal of the I forgot to say this earlier LEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOYYY  I always cite becomes a debtor to other men in various according to their various excellence and the various benefits received from them the principles of our being and government are our parents and our that have given us birth and Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his after Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to so does it belong to in the second to give worship to parents and Tommy Aquinas roman law Oh my goodness I am curious as to the conclusions of your Matthew just catching this was all just a cruel What are we to Matthew like you shot us all up with heroine and then took it Did you not think of the Your individual needs are inferior and subservient to the DEMANDS of political Michael time for you to make good on your trash I supposed to be writhing in the crushing grip of your syllogistic That SCIENCE bit is And whoa the words to were actually I thought people were exaggerating about but all of it  Getting the band back Gettin the Band Back Together Jake and Elwood Blues get the band back together in Blues I do enjoy that you and Tom were kicking around there in the infinite empty space of TNET while the rest of us were panicking  on this dumb coffee dumb internet is making me sound dumb and So does your husband have rights over you or your Pavlovian experiment for response conditioning of So Hegel right about the procession of world spirit in the realization of and you talked about the Federalist Papers during that brief my marriage I reconnected with my and rediscovered my purpose in am I glad TNET is Legal Moral My internet is too guess I have to actually Later So is it agreed that children are private belonging to parents but for the common good which God is And that the end of the marital union itself has the education of children as its highest end though the sanctification of spouses is not to be trivialized as an end of At least we are not cogs of the state legally or that sounds How about elaborating on the supposed advantages of Roman we may be owned by a subsidiary of But I know if that extends to Roman we belong to not the if we had Roman how could I tell my wife apart from my have the same Only daughters have the same That was what the Romans used math for Iulia Prima Iulia secunda That was kind of weird but the boys much Quintus and how many Julias were  Or you could have a Julia and a Julilla Life of Roman we belong like property to modern not Everybody go look at google It is so To whom do children belong by as the laws are when did TNET Or did it really  Samantha modern Roman law doesnt work that vide and codes a slight exaggeration but what do you modern Roman I the system which obtains in most of the world now Is that what John is talking just saying that Roman law is a living it clear to me how narrowly John meant it I just assumed ancient Roman apologies to John if I misinterpreted him I was contrasting the extreme of ancient Roman law with the modern oh i sorry not a but I imagine children belong to in the custody of their with some oversight from the state all wrong true Roman law defers to the principle that everyone belongs to Dean Dean You Belong To me This song makes me Visit my That is the Moreover you agreed above that children belonged to their why I put to DO THE children in Christian law and do not belong to their they are dominus but this status is held as it were in trust by the parents until the children are of very much like property held in trust is said in many ways But when the parents die or disown the the having no legal lose their names as a they are sine for which reason they are sent back to Dean Martin Houston Dean Martin on singing and covering his mouth with a harmonica through what JA Do people call you What is your actual but all your base are belong to  The honor owed to the state would be much clearer if laws were German law when one gets one must go to the the office in each city which certifies if one wants a church one can have that But the state controls Samantha I prefer more like his mustacheness JAson I like but not calling you that with the extra capital  Man of JA You have to shout the first It might or might not be pronounced  with a click somewhere in the how else are we to do homage to almighty Jah The first syllable is like in guru but there are two other Christian one of whose initials is and the other of which I left out JA because FB wont let me use periods  What does a masked man of mystery do for a day purely to keep people from guessing his secret Joel Professional kitten seen JA what when is the origin of the use of Joel I read Especially Calvinist websites to prevent people like me from slipping back into the arms of is what been told and intercede with much esp for the Toms of the world Mine reads like the script of A Clockwork heart is an open Everyone has read actually from his intestinal gas problems from being such a John it goes back to medieval definition of going to be JAson has a keeping the light on for The Beatles Across The Universe Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup They slither while they pass They slip away I think they need to use the term more often especially in conjunction with I use those all the I just here because so careful not to offend you I take a medieval law discussion seriously without being accused of Romish popery Joel my brother goes around telling everyone just stalling on coming back into the so do we know what happened to Popery it makes a pleasing odor to the Lord was it not forget Matthew Peterson shut it down to jerk chain Matthew Peterson was screwing with us You guys were jonesing for your fix hahaha you see my like the TNET methadone program Damn I think the of that opens a scene of the young boy running to his all out of and crying how they found a peddlar who was a real And so naturally all the young lads of the neighborhood began chasing him and throwing stones at as you And like just replace the real thing I was like a junkie without a you mean nope methadone Development reference me no ever seen A nu start My new career will be a cross between a therapist and an going to call myself an A classic from the Sonia Lesters Methadone Clinic Sonia Lesters Methadone Clinic original song from the album day at the most profound quote from rather be dead in California than alive in This works for a lot of other states as for instance rather be dead in California than alive in A civil war general totally once said I owned Hell and rent out Texas and live in would be Philip wise No Texans I thought that would be more Where is Sam Texas sucks I suffered through one year in I have some fine Texan Some much obliging and friendly Caleb almost got a job in Houston when he first went on the Dodged that Dallas is trble Houston is maybe Texas has Rich Linklatter And he is Houston is great the only city in Texas with San Antonio is The Menil Rothko wine bars and breakfast What more could you ask The Pacific less than a bazillion percent seasons all things I could ask for walkability urban density A few weeks ago I told Catherine that we should see a am matinee on I No one will be I Aurelia sleeps like a rock in the I sit in the no one will even notice we are I We left the crowded theater like we had robbed a Out the sidedoor through the alley into the car in seconds Peterson and another lifted me up to change the letters on the sign at the historic stock yards in Forth Worth one very inebriated I wonder if he remembers that surreal evening I reach the top row of letters so that stayed I remember the corral of That cowboy mafia bar we had to leave never felt more in my life Some sex trafficking we stumbled cheap vodka though Me this I no I admit the up the is the beating of hideous Michael Beitia Matthew sounds like the beginning of a Coen been to Good music and happened to be there during a punk Never so many unique snowflakes wearing the same Some of the older Brit bands were you still be punk in your Austen Freudian Maybe you would like it in every time I hear trapped in a it reminds me of Fort Worth Maybe Probably not Austin is one of the hottest and most happening cities in the USofA right But maybe your problem with it puzzled by in Samantha want to the pacific not too much urban California is right out I guess you want to live in  Austin is so Detroit is where Those were disjunctive But torn Pretty much every beach town in CA is   Unless you mean beach portions or something there are seasons a fact of Usually what people want is northeastern So drive up to NorCal and get a You urban If we pretend that California has real then the Bay Area might Though there But I maintain that Portland fits all the the categories Everything south fails one way or the Try Claremont Craftsman And ocean and all that Los Angeles has to offer close Caleb Cohoe would love to teach at any of the Claremont It has evolved into a discussion of the You guys are really grasping here And they need does it have to be in the Maybe Holy I think Caleb Cohoe has gotten to Resist Canada Resist the in I think you have a very loose definition of I will admit a partiality to the inland If you are in NorCal you just drive to the foothills of the one of the most beautiful ranges in the and you pick apples and get your fall out there in gold Based on the list Samantha Cohoe I think Vancouver wins in a plan of luring her to Canada is about to come to Claremont by the colleges is all Craftsman homes and downtown village Even outside of that great for biking and Wilderness trail a mile or so from Strauss house saw a bear there California is This is my beef with the CA season California has Southern California has seasons which are very subtle and I not the classic four Not even a mild They are something but things do change and the changes are pretty nice for the most I just wish people including would stop forcing the four season thing on It Walkability has to exist in the context of a good network of public transport streetcars New York City is walkable with the aid of buses and subways you can get And now that I read back a few comments not just a couple that you guys were discussing a rather elevated topic of cities and places to And I dragged in the season Walkability Able to live without a car Matthew sound like Ron and Sheila Albertson at the end of Waiting for here we are in the land of and let anybody tell you dreams come an hour from the minutes from the And gonna get there one of these Soon as we get a We have a car Who wants to add to the We consider ourselves if you consider one of the Matthew Peterson is NorCal is my but move to Claremont in half a freaking second if Caleb got a job But who am I move to Austin in half a second if Caleb got a job at you smell the salt in the Best line of the And I like urban density if in a But like I my list is The point Houston had of those things Do air pollution and extreme heat count for as much as I hate to admit Vancouver certainly has a few things going for aside from ruling out a few egregiously horrible I get very little say in where we end Is this a good place to bring up Apple Houston does have NONE of those but my earlier claim about the cultural glories of Houston was based on an IF one must live in then Houston is the Just wait until Caleb gets a job offer at I really want an Apple But you have to believe The village in Claremont is small about as walkable as it I can and do drive up to the mountains in And I walk to my We also walk to Trader good grocery stores and pretty much anything else you could But we have a wonderful deal re the beautiful house we and I do drive a long commute for my other job because I have a tenure track one here so in a sense this is all But with the right position you can have it is Claremont hiring an ancient philosopher this Basically all you need of right Cash rules everything around us dolla dolla bill Is this a good time to go back to the subject of how TAC should be more ordered to worldly Like I whenever Matthew Peterson starts talking about he sounds like the Albertsons from Waiting for you can walk to a lot in Santa All you need is for daddy to have been an ambassador and you to be his errant communist leaning I kid because I it is funny because it is You can walk to a lot in Manhattan When you driving that humble Or else you just need your Californian parents to NOT HAVE SOLD THEIR HOUSE ON THE CENTRAL COAST TO MOVE TO FRICKING In the right Claremont is like walking around an garden Love The problem with TAC being ordered to worldly success is if you drink the kool aid already failed by worldly How mad do you think the fine folks at Kool Aid are that it even Kool Aid that was served at I kid you Some executive is pulling out his hair and screaming it It was There are not enough Waiting for Guffman clips on Money magazine has an article on Liberal Arts colleges this Santa Barbara is also very if your man servants walk for you while you lay atop your solid gold found New York to be perfectly walkable as my butlers would take Fido out for a walk in Central Park every and they never had any problems with any of that horrid I do still have that beach house in Santa for can everybody here pray that my lousy relatives decide to sell We can have a TNET party there if your prayers are There actually IS a botanical garden I can almost see from our If I were one of my many houses would definitely be in the bay area Maybe another in Santa Barbara as Or maybe Big If I were I would buy out the other of house from my lousy We have the same wish re part of a beautiful family property in And in just to show how cosmopolitan I Vancouver would be incredible if it for the whole Canadian so close to getting Caleb to agree to US late to the Have we cast lots to elect a new troll No one can replace He is troll par  Matthew un cultured ignorant American snob you just kill I was giving you how incredible Vancouver Where is The Two Faced Peregrine What Did I miss An improvement for come a long Andrew Matthew shhhhhhhhhhh wake him from his Then if you are aiming for then maybe a good I missed about so I have no idea what went down since the beginning of The Never Ending  grab some popcorn and start reading Anne I think you could skip the first What does it say about The Threadness that Matthew Peterson can turn it on and off at And more what does it imply about WHAT IS I am pretty sure I actually missed about but had forgotten how many there were when I posted my last What are the juiciest I just asked that as if someone could just summarize this thread in a few  we try to do that every posts or so but it is impossible to capture the lots of girls in that photo  Actually like to see someone try to encapsulate vicimus in less than Matthew I like If his name is spoken too many times on the Jody I We could make it a competition and award this trophy for the TNET is too TNET is too TNET is A little fun with I just could not resist finding an image of a troll Mea I mean no harm The Ugliest Rivalry Trophy In The Nation Concordia will renew its rivalry with Olaf on Saturday with the winner getting to take home the ugliest PRESTOSPORTS Does anyone know of any studies done on the use of iPads in the I missed the first several thousand but my favorites topics which truths of natural theology can be known by the evils of who is the biggest jerk on the thread competition is whether the Church Fathers maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and whether sexual desire can ever be acted upon without admixture of whether Augustine maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and whether Aquinas messed up about the Immaculate Conception because of his on when ensoulment which composer is the whether TAC could do a better job helping its graduates find jobs and get into grad whether the prestige of college education is helpful to career it or people actually argued no on that why Jane Austen is indisputably whether Mary remained through last one is what made Scott really and truly lose just a Anne Marie At the risk of bringing this thread my old business wife is on full life following multiple cardiac arrests and the installation of an artificial Her lungs are now failing and the family is begging They have a baby Take a moment if you have Jane Austen is indisbutably hahaha that gave me a chuckle Will Samantha Been taking spelling lessons from Jane I I wondered why this kept coming up on my and then I saw that this thread had over sure that this is the most press TAC has ever You should bill and there was that whole Straussian intermixed with a lot of talking about Virgil   forget the part where TAC was founded by heretics and is a heretic That is kind of what got the engine Then there was the whole thing about who Peregrine really is and what is in his political So many so little I will be How BTW Peregrine defriended me a day or two ago you also I John and because Accept it or it will destroy of It has made me well But a tough how can you summarize the Are we just reminiscing about the golden age of Where are The gimp is In this wake him up I just saw the edition of Pulp Fiction on the big screen Off topic In Scotus and what do the abbreviations stand I know and Is What is Dist is follow Peter which and more expertly commented qc stands for is whether the number of a page or line Is this For a complete list afaik articulum ad response to an objection or sed contra argumentum caput only when after the number of a columna body of text folium folia lectio liber linea numerus before a pagina preface sed contra tomus versus Adrw it never left I probably missed something obvious JA any more useful abbreviations for citing scholastic  Quaestiuncula could be a cute nickname for TNET Very TNET bears more resemblance to really been away from TAC too I came back to browse this EPIC thread a little and then skipped to the and it took me awhile to realize that Catherine Ryland indeed was not requesting information for how to cite opinions from the Supreme Court of the United Oh the OTHER Someone print this all out and make a book of Hi Here I was trying to be helpful In all seriousness anyone think Scott will be Hi John Boyer Daniel you mean I hope he was What a I saw some of his rambling either unhinged or completely That he sincerely believes what he writes is John Just in terms of the A series of problems posed and answered as long as one cuts out the goatfeathers although those are sometimes the most enjoyable I feel like with the length of this thread someone should insert a rambling diatribe about their philosophy of and maybe some Townes Van Be Here In The Morning Van The sun is and despite the clouds and Thank you for your That is is this the wake for If it I want to know final Scott when you need some the way the TNET ends the way the TNET ends the way the TNET ends not with a bang but a Just the dark ages of Everyone is busy doing or work sucks more Reports of demise are greatly Especially since these are just a few of the topics we discussed Just how blindingly obvious is it that America was founded on evil enlightenment or We totally used to sing songs that sound like they could be understood to refer to the common good in some Does vaccination hurt Only for white folks with rich fantasy or Why the lower classes just need to accept their hunger periodic food shortages are totally ordered to the common Evil and contrary to or Those kids in China WANT to work hours shifts totally by their own free choice in those lovely factories and no Pope has ever written against it for Benedict Leo Pius Pius How about this Mike I call you Paul says god the times of Maybe how I account for history while denying that the majority of people necessarily go to Predestination is always good as Predestination is all cherry pick our favorite Bible Rm Oh so fine to quote but as soon as I cite the Bible Papists Papists than those that agree with love to cherry pick quotes from But we can save that for the Capitalism In man is slave to the In man is slave to the a pope Sed contra Communist so theories are still And true of but true Capitalism been tried Once the state gets out of the Utopia for not talk theory but talk real existing or real existing the skeleton in the closet of capitalist economies is that if you go far enough down it rests on real or virtual slave  But is there anyone on here who will defend capitalism as Is the Calvinist view really different from and if so how and how have no clue One of you schmahrties can let me This is exactly how capitalism and communism There are flaws in the What we have seen is what you Killed Economics solved As far as existing stuff prefer to be in America over the last century than in Russia and so would everyone else despite the pretensions of And the same goes for only prefer to be here cause little slave kids made your IPhone for you Matthew Peterson This is and one could substitute of supposed to qualify that by saying just accidental and America actually sucks just as bad in Matthew in my proposed questions did you note how irenically I phrased the two options on And we are never supposed to use the you like leave it for some place argument because being grateful for what we have is somehow immoral in this day and age and that argument is silly likes to be close to the precious even as we hateses I I loved your magnanimous flourish we are never supposed to listen to people from other countries who like it here or any immigrant story of success because all just In an ideal those people have to come and therefore we nothing wrong with being it is important to understand how it really How much chest thumping do we really In an ideal we could choose other options other than the that have actually existed over the last century even as America corrupts I see a lot of USA thumping I mouse over your facebook picture and I see mutual I see a lot of watered down Zinn and a and dispirited Zinn is I prefer Chomsky If I said something patriotic I would have droves of ironic naysayers and critiques underneath the status chiding me for saying something so base and Gotta go talk about The Federalist THE WHOLE Immigrant success In order to critique and reform important to wrestle with what is good and bad now too easy to go to extremes either of But the rah rah extreme is rare in and the poo poo extreme is usually done very poorly and just as if not more I see a lot of chest That or hatred for the wrong Very little real self chest thumping outside academia of Chomsky is a from the little what bugs Yes America is better than many places in the world not just because we get to be the rich consumers and they get to be chained to a factory bench to provide us our Yet even so the answer simply cannot be to always demand fewer regulations and lower taxes as if that were the answer to It seems that this ignores the plight of the not just at but those abroad who are made miserable here and now for our social justice demand more from Yet even if it were the case that capitalism makes everyone richer and even if we assume the all but slave labor conditions in world countries would be if it for the conglomerates assumptions as far as I can still have grave reservations about the capitalist and always surprised when I find people who claim to share my values who do NOT seem to have these we all recognize that our society has become deadened to the higher That material excess and pleasures far too the only goods This is the result of capitalism as it has been I have any neat of but surely there ought to be an acknowledgment that endless consumption cannot be the only principle of our economic to the higher If the aim of the society not be then there is no principle to check that of commodious as the guide to economic But it is a facile delusion to think we can correct the Our legislators do not write or read the laws and for a Have you read that Profit over People is golden You guys are just mad because poor As said Social justice is when I am safely within the top Until no no Pater He should be into this to higher I care about being Poverty is who said anything about being I agree with Joel you like or the comments on this thread are you complaining about being First it was now possible reading between the lines here a little just jealous of your Ignore HAHA I love hang so if there is systemic oppression for the sake of cheap goods here means I can afford a cheap clothing complaining about it because There seems to be some sort of disconnect and at least I buy American made I was not actually attempting to make a serious are made in the should be for there can be no levity on Chomsky is the read him in a long while and his politics are I thinj that happens to everyone disillusioned with but stuck in the libertarian communism And he toasted the conservative of in a debate once to the point of getting I get the Chomsky I am not a Chomskyite but he a typical flatulant talking Things are expensive when they made by little slave whether or not one agrees with Chomsky is always worth the read for the TNET has now officially sanctioned my purchase of expensive in case anyone missed boots feeding the poor Samantha Cohoe are expensive when they made by little slave Sometimes things are still I quote the turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers But the real the sneakers seem that much Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them What are your Flight of the Issues About Flight of the Conchords performing their song I strongly urge everyone to take a moment to watch this highly relevant Hey I posted that back in the Jurassic period of TNET On TNET there is no before and no first and no in the Baroque  talkin bout the but keepin it unofficial motto of TNET I think John is right about poverty being but I think underrated in exactly the same way that all suffering is so are we shifting from economics to Edith my learned does mean the divine Something You have all been so helpful in the How is poverty take a stab underrated as a means to santification According to poverty is pretty And if one has is necessary for or so says Just like all are the are those who born in a no crib for a King of kings and second person of the Example one somewhat of a platitude compared to how the rest of the conversation was Poverty and other suffering can just as easily lead to bad effects on the soul as good but God has a special place for them in his plan it inherently a good was my point it is a But how does it jive with the maximization of profit as is demanded by our current Real existing My point was more of a societal Poverty be underrated because an So how does one rate an I mean are we lumping below physical just like what I was We also imply a certain moral failure to Especially poverty that is not temporary What did Francis call just because poor people are lazy and stupid Or we might imply that the moral failure lies with Either poverty is an evil we always blame on John Stossel have a bit every November on why not to give spare change to I feel like we equivocate when we say Francis and and raise the minimum welfare and Franciscans definitely live a different sort of than a single mom with four kids poverty kind of a relative There are Correcting unjust acquisition is one Eliminating poverty how do you define is there is also a lot of equivocation between poverty and I like a close to home What is the difference between an adjunct and a tenured A part time job at starbucks hahahahaha Adjuncts need at least two part time That would be an injustice right under the hypocritical noses of policy not to mention aging liberation theologians and their social teaching the I can talk about poverty or inequality in my own line of vision and from what I can that problem is I am not poor though insofar as I am single and have attendant mobility in that regard I have some marketable skills and one highly developed skill that I might peddle outside the That being if I say choose to keep teaching part time at colleges in Chicago and teach math on the side and work a slightly better than min wage job when things get I am told that is my own To which I totally Does that change the structural problems with the Does my choosing to partake in that structure make it just in some Does it make me stupid to abide in the vicious the moral Is it because I ascribe no moral high ground to my choice in teaching say my pride because I spent so long in doing Oh and I like Seriously excellent study of poverty and work in the university I highly recommend this but in a good How the University Higher Education and the Moral high ground I wish our society valued teachers more The problem is there are too many people who love their field within and administrators are blatantly exploiting their not actually correct to as I often that the academic job market it Lots of teaching needs to be done at the academic The fact that jobs are so hard to get is the result of administrators choosing to fill those teaching needs with adjunct slave rather than My point was that those looking to cure societal need to look under there nose at home I am firmly against the camp of all are I see where it has at the same that is not living in poverty in the way that living on the south side of Chicago is living in with no opportunities and no support adjunct usually have the ability to find better paying work outside the but they stay because they love their sunk But I digress Adjuncts often make less than shoe string budget private school The university has no The early university guilds had the best A book and a teacher and maybe a rented Still poor but at least students debt I would imagine that they always make less than school But since adjuncts are paid per class of it is hard to I know what they are paid at one Jesuit I think pathetic across the now compare that to other Does the guy mopping the floor work any less hard than the guy bsing with corporate bigwigs on the golf The causes of our present economic ills are not solved by leveling The rot is worse and explain to me how a college president can make times an adjunct and Leveling wages may not be or even it mean that there a deep injustice I But correcting that unjust INequality is not what you had suggested The underlying causes are little little known and But nothing will be fixed until that system I suggested any solutions as but like a good TAC only criticized what I I have the These facts make capitalism a hard pill to The Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The Billion Poorest And the top control half the LAURA SHIN justice as gone Your objection presupposes a zero sum game and ignores the powerful force that capitalism and entrepreneurship have been in pulling people and countries out of What are some Going back to the question of Is there some way to think about the problem of individualism as the virtues of capitalism distended to I see this as attendant with a cynicism towards Are there civic virtues to be fostered to create a greater responsibility towards your immediate And how do we break out of the problem of all the bs around Gates will reward the newest condom but what about providing local support for parents in school options for their kids and time and energy to pursue those pulling some people out of poverty put putting others into for Remember in the old examen how defrauding the worker of his wages used to fall under the are none of those saved states saddled with unrepayable And which of those humanity loving entrepeneurs hold the non zero sum notes with not for equalizing but we do have to start to move towards paying workers a living I think austerity laws are the more likely We want to make the banks go Sadly not familiar with private entrepreneurs loaning money to I seem to remember the Drop the Debt and Jubilee initiatives being targeted at nations holding Michael Could you tell me the mechanism and give me an example of a nation that now has a lower standard of living than they had before their involvement with the free I mean a bigger gap with the I mean people who used to have bathrooms and clean water who now have to poop in a hole in the yard because Capitalism stole their money or standard of here you see also Detroit MI I the D Detroit will rise from the With no help from of factories in China where the workers live in may be a higher standard of Prison is a higher standard of living than some inner help them all and put them in prison what we already the situation with Argentina private citizens loaning money to Katie I know nothing of People making profit and obeying the market sunk I seem to think it was giant labor unions making American car companies lose money while American operation made more money selling the same number of better cars for less but not paying someone over to put a bolt if living in overcrowded conditions and working long hours beats starving in a is that not an increase in standard of I want to do but take it over which seems to be what they were doing or they move in to the there may be governmental but not the I have a different take on the Money is always has And though Carnegie imported culture for the He is part responsible for the conditions that made its importation Entrepreneurial philanthropist robber baron view of these Kind of like which helps to save more lives in condoms and vaccines or wells and clean And which is is kind of a And if you think it is perfectly okay to close down American factories to build sweat shops in foreign countries affecting the poor here and there then not sure we have the same copy of CST Even aside from how well capitalism works to ease the immiseration of poverty great if only it could be reminded of the time someone remarked to Paietta of what the that dogs have an exceptionally keen sense of and he replied without batting an eye all the good it does even ignoring the systematic injustices Katie and Michael have it still seems to me that a wealthy capitalist society is like the dog that smells so the society has a good deal of but can anyone really praise the use that is made of such a Beitia Put all the poor people in prison sweat shops Are you guys seriously arguing that free markets raised millions of people out of I think it is but we keep a factory going and losing money and then the people selling that product they used to make need someone to produce Unions did Beitia three squares and cheap American made YES WE Sí se See Translation Last I the garment companies are doing pretty well tagging in the illustrious David Quackenbush to channel George Gilder and set this as I have to go do manual labor for tips and slightly above minimum elitist that I And people thought this thread was stock has gone from to per share in the last five but they raise the wages in not arguing against But not a force for good on its And I go back to my original critique of how is poverty a vice or a sign of vice ignores some serious problems not saying that all big companies are but a long way from capitalism forcing countries into I am curious how people understand the argentine debt default not people countries are mythological So going to interrupt with this BREAKING Apparently the Diocese of where I is going to have best educational technology professional development breakout sessions for Educator Needless to I am quite excited delighted by There is a suggested list of but they are open to additional Here are my Fire From A Hermeneutic Tract on the World Wide Web and the Fate of Dragon Has A Face In All Your A Commentary on the Modern Libido for the Moving Crucifix and the The Power of Distraction for Contemporary to Keep Your Students in the Basics of Projector Use in the Us Make Man In Our The Jackdaw God and Very Shiny Have All The Chalkboards Luddite Nostalgia in Mimic Has No Voice of His The Philosophy of I drink your the fire in their like I welcome your Invention and innovation create new markets and advance western civilizAtion in the If technology Stopped then the communist arguments for distribution hold since it is just a process of trading existing But if new kinds of goods are created that leapfrog current barriers reducing development costs greater time can be spent in academia and The real product needing development is clean water and Both can be solved through nuclear The only true production is by the land and it is not a zero sum new goods do not require new We need to step back and perfect the old before we are all buried in broken wares from Speaking as a canon law student who brings a Kindle to no need to be a luddite pretty sure prayer reflects what comes out more than what goes But additive manufacturing is awesome and carbon fiber makes everything only true production is by the what does this Natural growth I that seem very relevant then someone made a list of the topics I have views on that create the greatest screaming against and I giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social The Amish may have taken it way too but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and intermediate technology is how you raise all of out of rather than creating a modern city destined to return to as the countryside gets by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer In I take Redeeming Economics by Mueller to be the definitive must read From the actual economics Not if it is just referencing but wood and other materials are grown and are I have no idea what you just tried to What is referencing And what does this have to do with growing things that are Antecedents and pronouns Come The Middle East is a great study on rapid growth from Bedouin to civilization without the admixture of effort Cell phones are horrible typing devices forgive all thumbs and autocorrect I responded to Jeff And it caused Which nations does mueller take into study in his The middle east is a terrible And has very little to do with the problem I shitloads of cash for oil have a way of transforming a Not repeatable in most I was refering the problem of introducing modern production into societies with production still going The effect is usually devastating poverty for Intermediate not are can be done more and avoid or mitigate the problems of increasing production too We only need to see the moral depravity of our own nation and the destruction of the family to see how technology is not always good in the he is not writing on developing nations but economic theory in Most studies he uses are of the Marxist theory is actually looking forward to your fictional leap frogging In technology that outspaces labor creates not boatloads of If it worked as you Marx is a Marxist are Mueller is excellent in every way I like the Middle East since it is a real example and modern the closet American analogous society is Indian Indian gaming brought rapid growth and income to a society that was doomed to if you provide a large amount of income to a society and do not require effort the society consumes more but does not necessarily What would you do if you were provided with no work Is this Is it working I make no claims as to what I I believe in technology Risk identifying future problems and offering solutions a The problem in the Middle East is free money to citizens as long as there is oil and The leaders They only have years So they need to work right now to develop both alternatives to oil as power as well as develop a new export or The fields they initially identified are manufacturing and They desire to create a world class education system to develop an academic university The first thing they want to teach is The challenge is nobody in the nation wants to go to since they already have more money than they can without having to work for best I can I have no idea what conversation you are have fun with I am honestly not following the trail of thought George Whaley you we really need more on this Thanks for the Mueller That goes for Jehoshaphat as I do not know of the you refer as only dipped in and out of this That being I think Gilder understands the nature of supply as a the sum game that is our and the that underlies the entrepreneurial I hear George Gilder and the Discovery Institute comes understand That and his fantasy about moral version of reality is a nice fiction Maybe even capitalism as it ought to but not as it I wrote my thesis on as a mode to embody love to human consider myself both moral and an entrepreneur along the lines of his and would love some examples of how he misunderstands This is once again evidence that TAC grads study enough The closest American analogue to was the industrial Only through government concessions by capital to and more did ANYTHING close to modern American economy come to It through the but contra the capitalists quick quiz Capital or Labor hour work week elimination of child labor comp pensions safer working conditions is you wrote a TAC And You may be But his view of the moral capitalist in There are moral That the And you are a support of Intelligent Design Why do you reject and the Aristotelian idea of Yes that was But come I wrote my thesis on predestination and universal salvific therefore I must have definitively answered that BA theses are fun to read in the are rather naïve attempts but good I deny what you It is common in small to mid size But big business is mostly about busting The nice guys are window You need a quick tour of my work See the whole problem is the the system is not a mode to embody Man has went Good and bad people can equally be And The system insofar as one naïvely considers description to be and not a construct meant to simplify things for the sake of an is Gilder tries to make it moral per se and that is so absurd I think even he believes And I accept his which is different than and different than any other number of constructs vaguely called why it is impossible to get them to speak of Existing or REC as I refer to it Joshua I think I may have misread your of giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social The Amish may have taken it way too but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and intermediate technology is how you raise all of out of rather than creating a modern city destined to return to as the countryside gets by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer Are you suggesting that third world countries should not I was attempting to relate the economies of developing nations in the middle east to the US economy based upon their current export more common more common in the past than big business not my experience at all cause in Chicago I grew up in Mormon crony land too I was suggesting to should be aided in developing in a organic not by but by intermediate В My thesis qua but I am actually more impressed by it every time I read as a set of original many of which I have acted That was snarky by the I think you all look at business through the lens of giant I look at it through the lens of a mom and pop where I was raised and what I do I view a large as the of one that started but had to grow to achieve If a bunch of evil people betray the nature of the entrepreneurial it change what it is any more than bad priests redefine the most people are not employed at mom and pop but they at least in the West to start roughly of the new jobs created in the last few years have been in small when you factor all the big biz jobs lost and small ones is sort of a weasel Define it please It is too often and too often regarded as a sort of since it is supposedly the great I understand it is the age of the not its size that creates new Bringing new jobs in and out as they succeed or an econ but that seems pretty obvious around the as small as that niche Who is this Jehoshaphat and what have you done with JA makes the It is a magic quality we hold in not to denigrate ambitions at But oftener it is the quality that separates a Tesla from an Eat the be content for now with just defining them  I am not sure it quite matters whether you see large business as a It seems that that perversion keeps coming around to that on its own has nothing to prevent seems I have a friend who works for a small startup as an offshoot of the sun there is nothing mom and pop about but it is still also everyone Clare Coffey is not a TAC alumna be fooled or am I Defining them out of  I think need to know what exactly talking about first Samantha Cohoe or I am dying to know what position was on the topics you but I just cannot dig that way Care to divulge a few more If then carry people look even is a once hiring people outside the families of the original And we need to define Who is But now that you mention would be interesting as though I bet I could guess what say one who starts his own can be said in many ways Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of usually involving the direction of labor in that In the more modern it seems inevitably to involve largely in the combination of concepts taken from and Matthew speak his mind about Gilder for fear of causing a schism in the De Koninck Project Define I know how you people keep up with this and still function on a daily entrepreneuship is the and something worth If entrepreneur means the one that starts a then it again is an amoral term and Good and bad people do definition seems a far more obscure way of saying that same But also not fully that it inevitably involves added worth to create a surplus of worth mean something I would anyone who has made great success in business regardless of means made lots of since corporations are people under American then are corporations Inventors would be an if they develop the idea and sell it or license The state is not what I have in but could use those same Heck Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of usually involving the direction of labor in that is the arts that has as its end the creation of a context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for the added value of sex to create a surplus of usually involving the direction of sex labor in the someone who skims off the labor of others for his meal aint easy Michael is wood worth Is a birdhouse worth Is a cool design of a birdhouse that does something one has never done worth even Tesla vs The difference Michael You sound like a a birdhouse is worth EVEN MORE if I can get someone else to make and sell and harvest the materials for and still get paid Its still not clear to me what an entrepreneur is on first It comprehends everything from architectonic legislation to money laundering and pimping know what you heard about me but a Cent make me post old BR videos And why do the whose labor the entrepreneur is need him at all for their have the principle within themselves Not all entrepreneurship is A pimp may be but an evil I heard that one before If you say pimping is not then you must have another aspect of And if it then it should be evident Betamax was far superior to quality and innovation VHS took was simply cheaper and good So betamax in some a greater but the market value as a cool design for a birdhouse only has economic value if the market grants not because it is innovative bracket the morality interested the utility Do we need the Jehoshaphat Why does Michael Beitia not own a parts NO I lack the architectonic principle of robber baron what is this of a set of Is he like a translator between people who dont speak the same language enough to be able to So etc may all be And the system they are involved in is at best we have already rejected So question is not the next one what you want to be known money what you I still say it is nothing but being successful at making money which excludes many hardworking honest business men and people be ganging up on give him the chance to speak and be taken seriously for goodness sake Gilder claim that there can be no evil done in that take back the slave comment and I might But then it embody you clamed fair How about Player Hater Michael you do sound like someone who thinks the bigger organization of all this is super easy and that the only real work is with calloused If not currently chatting on FB while some guy pays you nope at home you gotta put in air quotes though Start a Start a distribution Do Come up with ideas and make the picture in your head out of one and You are not stuck and if you are it is not I have to run a ironically and wasting my time taking on a room full of myth not the rest of these folks State was thrown How is the State an Insofar as it has an ability in some cases to turn the worker into a I wonder who is going to feed my five kids while insult mind that an cannot always bootstrap a business or gain external According to the Catholic Church I should be able to work for wages if I live to acquire productive property of my own is contextual as The school district in requires high speed internet and wifi at people with kids move up and start shit all the and the be ready to work hours a week for a while and it might burn I I will poop No one wants to demonize The problem is that we are living with a Reagan zombie myth that claims that we ought to take from the poor and the elderly and give tax credits exempt from tax businesses and entrepreneurs because then things will Manifestly I have to work hours a I have a family and would like to see my children before dead or See how well it works in families where the father is gone all the I worked for some really shitty ones The entrepreneur is a different and better thing than the capitalist in entrepreneurship as it presently exists exists within a context of and looking only at the or even the IDEAL means you really looking at the entrepreneur in his context But how do you define So the hour a week thing is amazing for those who can and do do is that inherently Or is it noble for some and not for meaning it would be a sign of virtue in one and a sign of vice in That is not the case for many of despite And you are not using the word ironically I blocked a friend for a while that blamed me for my economic Not because I bear some but because he stupidly blamed me for not if being penniless I could just get up and leave the place of my and my and automatically succeed through transplanted somewhere else without social relations And it is a n injustice if you have to work hrs a It is an injustice if both parents have to I will take the Catholic side on I have been working My company pay me everything it disputes never resolve sent an email because they underpaid neglecting and takes up enough time to hamper other the money is just about to when I do get So should I quit and have nothing to pay the bills but finally have the energy to starting a My the condescension of such a myopic work It is nice for you if you had the opportunity to start a When I cannot even when I do have the to go to daily Mass because I cannot put gas in my just maybe what little I have worth risking unless I have a solid business maybe where I am offered me such an and maybe I cannot afford to I cannot blame anyone but Is that the I should be able to work a reasonable job for a reasonable That would be Not everyone is meant to be an especially an It would be neglecting my state in Katie work week was not a sign of virtue in my Acedia comes to in the Leisure book of makes that that workaholism and acedia are closely Now if you excuse I have about hrs to make get some coffee and then I have to leave for another hr overnight where apparently I do not work hard enough in otherwise I would no no just not SMART enough or dedicated My boss thinks I am smarter than And his boss thinks I am the smartest person working for so it must be that dedication part Is not having a boss important to monocle Yes it entrepreneur is the Indie business owner So it seems there need to be Or is there some egalitarian other boss entrepreneur And there also need to be people who are technically a boss at my technically would assume Erin is the boss at an autonomous collective ah Like an academic department no like a commune I said it fooling yourself living in a self perpetuating in which the I am distracting myself Oh there you bringing in class    Good pickup Dennis The Constitutional Peasant Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a film about King Arthur and his knights who embark on a good that was the point of my sheesh what I I caught your reference yes some people need to be told what to do at and some people need to be telling them what to Most work is hierarchical Now we see the violence inherent in the stop it Booty Shut I order you to shut So not having a boss Does that tap into a desire to be It might be an Americanist like seem to be more Western But no boss Do any of you have opinions on the nature of offset Offset agreement the free encyclopedia Defense offset agreements are legal trade practices seems like the worst of cronyism the world must be what were the most distinctive features of Roman for a It is forced bartering not For example you want to sell product in It may be to open a factory their since the tariff posed on American products prices the goods outside of Well their most ancient piece of true legislation is The Twelve Basically after Tarquin the Proud was expelled from Rome there was class warfare between the patricians and the and the plebs left and refused to come back until basic rights were established for all rich or The Twelve Tables are pretty you lived until lived Livy I am still trying to figure out that off set Is it forcing the purchase of Or just Joshua what do you if you mind me I annoy USC students with the housing admin at I think dangling lots of irresistable meeting US geopolitical strategic cronyism domestic and and some forced bartering to And just the above table it makes me kinda And I figure how it financially for our arms I have read the Twelve What does to the infernal Sounds Matthew Peterson kenz may be able some light on your USC run in this Matthew Peterson Dear Young White Male in the shiny black with the USC decal who weaves and passes and cuts in front of us from the right lane only to slam on his we all hate Angeles PS No offense meant to our many friends who drive Audis or who went to leaving just of the fancier cars coming in at USC are driven as if by needs to speed around the bends of a parking John Kunz DONT CROSS THE STREAMS My purpose of posting on offsets is this is a real world business problem and the real world Philosophical solutions or ideal economies are polite and but if you want a moral solution or moral problem to then develop the technology they need while drinking their Pink Floyd Us and Them Us and Them And after all only ordinary men and you God only knows not what we would I have to for those who were arguing that bathing suits were and to the same ones whom argued that certain scientific body parts were curious to Is it that you how shall I turned not trying to be only for those who believe what are your opinions on attire at the Or is it entirely up to woman to keep men from Burqinis for and I should start a fashion Daniel P Seductive what call Nothing seduces like BURQINI SWIMWEAR offers a wide array of affordable swim We offer two types of  Haha east You just turned me Bloody hell I see enough of that on Also the full on no eye hole still trying to figure out what garment was after the atom bomb test it called On Where are What what every good catholic woman should How do they Or I could make a whole lot of Entertain Panem et See Translation  late Penis There you go Mars Hill church closes branches after founder Mark Driscoll calls women I saw something about this in the paper today thought it was a or a Oh The word was No one get turned Tonight Show Family Feud with Steve Harvey and Jason Segel Steve Harvey hosts a special Tonight Show edition Oh all lol Funny as Hell of a Drug Show Hell of a P is a Rolls my eyes so far back in my And then I Regarding the and other things like has anyone else ever found to be an odd Purity like any other hard to keep them on the farm once seen Karl A person can grow in virtues like but purity seems not even sure it is a everyone knows bacon is forbidden under Jewish food purity but cheeseburgers I know if I can get on the starting to feel badly for Mark I had to look him Mark Driscoll is a jerk and a misogynist Jewish purity laws make sense in a technology Since the goal is of all need to be But with that mostly went away for the majority of Jewish there are those that follow the letter of the law and not he If a bacon cheeseburger is I want to be but I feel bad for All this digging up stuff he said years ago on the internet is getting OT purity map very well onto Aristotelian It all has to do with being set And OT purity map very well onto modern ideas where purity tends to mean something like sexual OT is Aristotle is Agreed Samantha that a lot of the OT law was purely to set the Israelites a lot of Christian morality centers on But it even a virtue in the Christian I think a virtue at no mean of why purity be a virtue in the Christian Is purity needed to embrace the you increase in only decrease conceived in sin and born in think people can increase in an once a person reaches the age of where virtues can it is impossible to increase in only it is evidenced by One is either a or Natura On the Recovery of Nature in the Doctrine of equivocation in The Lord Our God is Peterson is The Thread beautiful though your sins be as Sed ST IIa IIae Q A ad Augustine says Dei long as her mind holds to its whereby she has merited to be holy even in not even the violence of lust can deprive her body of its which is safeguarded by her persevering He also says Dei that the mind there is a virtue which is the companion of whereby it is resolved to suffer any evil whatsoever rather than consent to But I think purity is much equivocated Learn to do Seek Reprove the Defend the Plead for the and let us reason Says the your sins are as They will be as white as Though they are red like They will be like you consent and You will eat the best of the land shall send you a facebook friend if one consents to then purity is irrevocably but what if one consent to purity be defer to the many many people who know more than but as far as I can see purity might be taken to refer to innocence which once lost is lost recoverable in a sense through baptism and or it could refer to a habit of keeping oneself free from impurity and then the damage or it could refer to keeping the OT law and not sure but I think one could be come clean again the same through certain joel seems to moi to know must be I do not speak merely of the purity of the We must observe great purity in our in our in all our Peter Julian Eymard God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can John of the Cross Those whose hearts are pure are the temples of the Holy Lucy i think a certain purity is necessary to embrace and live the christian that is through confession and purity and the virtues can Purity is granted by God when it is asked for with Josemaria Escriva is a long term one must wait patiently for it to bear for the happiness of loving kindness which it must But at the same chastity is the sure way to John Paul II Anne heard it said that all persons are Temples Of The Holy and there in rests our greatest a temple can be idea i ideas have a tendency to thrive in certain pockets in Anne I like Escriva as will send you a facebook friend are we talking habit of avoiding the or of wrt the effect of sin is still on the soul even if sanctifying grace is restored effects of sin are affects of reparation can also be Michael I was wondering the same thing not the way it is which is why always had a problem with purity based moralities oh I missed your earlier comments Anne work computer update as fast as one woud like you lost me mb on the it is thread lost to morality Especially for young the phrase goods comes to You guys really need to read some You are losing I think the common modern use of purity as is particularly Christian at got it aware of your STA has interesting stuff ideo virginitas est quaedam specialis habens se ad castitatem sicut magnificentia ad IIa IIae Q IIa IIae Ryan How are Can you or just use the chastity does not equal Chastity has a much more specific Anne read a fair amount of JPII but more you familiar with It was a little group of JPII friends that he went hiking Chastity has a more general at least if by purity we mean sexual which seems like what we are talking about the term means but also how the self affects the how the milieu affects the what do you mean Samantha when you say I think the common modern use of purity as is particularly Christian at Doing much I can type Liking is just like Glad to hear Ratzinger is the bomb And I wanted to add that my comment was meant in a friendly not JPII writings are so incredibly I just wish everyone read them because they really shed so much light on the topic of marriage and family and so much I think a Christian not used in the Bible that Jesus definitely concerned with Old Testament He talked with women in including he dined with notorious he wash his he broke the Sabbath for different and his followers would begin eating unclean and he also told people to sin no I think scholars dispute Catherine Ryland what do you That Jesus did these things is a sign that purity is important not as important as not that sexual purity matter On both consider response to the objection that virginity cannot be a virtue since it is not restored by IIa IIae Q Art ad Virtue can be recovered by penance as regards that which is formal in but not as to that which is material For if a magnificent man has squandered all his wealth he does not recover his riches by repenting of his In like manner a person who has lost virginity by recovers by not the matter of virginity but the purpose of As regards the matter of virginity there is that which can be miraculously restored by namely the integrity of the which we hold to be accidental to while there is something else which cannot be restored even by to that one who has experienced venereal lust should cease to have had that For God cannot make that which is done not to have been as stated in the Question Article I think I see the gimme a minute even the Gods cannot change the I mean that he care about but that he follow the expected codes of his what we would call chastity is important in the Old and especially New But I think the use of to refer specifically to sexual innocence reflects a later Thanks to Jesus we no longer stone women for I And Catherine a lot of scholars think Jesus did keep the expected codes of his time Or at least that he kept the but not to the exacting interpretations of the Pharisees but he did many things which caused the Pharisees to look askance at his idea of the things I mentioned  but a strong case can be made that differences with the Pharisees were about interpretation of the not a rejection of letter but the spirit gives think the Church Fathers cared about I think the law was pretty clear about stoning women for for are you trying to make Trying to count how many possible tenure track positions TNET has probably already lost But then that all started with attending my beloved alma mater in the first I up for by I may have been referring to the Church Fathers Have you looked at article on I think he makes a nice distinction both how it is a virtue in relation to chastity and the way in which it is lost through the strong preoccupation that most early cultures have with sexual purity have to do with women as property we change the but people are called to repair the world and spoils of and circumcision for men was a mock castration know what that last thing war and violence and vicious psychological tried to free people from all was it ever discussed at your college that male circumcision was a castration or that polygamy and women as property was a consequence of vicious desert and constant genocidal Women have been treated shabbily to horribly throughout history and across not sure the early church or even ancient Mesopotamia stand out in regards to mistreatment of not that aware maybe in the they talked about all kinds of crazy not that In the earliest records of human castration was regarded as an act of the ritual of circumcision is still followed by many modern In this we have exposed the cultural and religious evidence between the ancient ritual of castration and MATERIALS AND We reviewed the reports about circumcision and castration in the and Turkish Both the rituals of circumcision and castration had similar aims in human The ritual of castration evolved into circumcision as a and bloody procedure than No secrets As I a lot of people at TAC thought polygamy was in accordance with natural  if most of the young men are dead fighting the old chiefs because it totally And now starting the castrated are frequently Oh the ownership stuff can be gender for all the The Kinks Superman my Polygamy is NOT in accordance with natural but I can see how one might make such a mistake if the only good of marriage one acknowledges is the good of procreation as certain Bishops of Hippo did The Kinks Apeman The Kinks Apeman I think sophisticated cos living my life like a good homosapien But all around THE KINKS Is it therefore contrary to the natural And if polygamy is bad for it goes against original design for marriage as manifested in therefore but what if most of the young men are dead from and the adversarial tribes are trying to steal the there was no talking I suppose it could be the least bad of several terrible options or maybe love love one whole law depends on Hail than the whole law thing kind of harmony the women at the G in spirit and these are the worshippers G is murder against the natural law how about abandoning male moses law abandoned to the to save him from political flowing like a I think polygamy is partially opposed to natural and wholly opposed to the new See Summa Theologiae Supplement Q a bit of a shame that we read a little bit of Thomas on marriage at since he puts views in An examination of Mormon polygamous practice shows murder and abandonment as IF those are against the natural THEN polygamy is against the natural law I think polygamy is against the natural though Just for the What does There are so many excellent arguments against polygamy that hard to pick just God allowed or encouraged or commanded something agin the natural  Read Summa Theologiae Supplement to Part III Q plurality of an action may be improportionate either to the principal or to the secondary and in either case this happens in two on account of something which wholly hinders the for instance a very great excess or a very great deficiency in eating hinders both the health of the which is the principal end of and aptitude for conducting which is its secondary on account of something that renders the attainment of the principal or secondary end or less for instance eating inordinately in respect of undue Accordingly if an action be improportionate to the through altogether hindering the principal end it is forbidden by the first precepts of the natural which hold the same place in practical as the general concepts of the mind in speculative it be in any way improportionate to the secondary or again to the principal as rendering its attainment difficult or less it is not indeed by the first precepts of the natural but by the second which are derived from the first even as conclusions in speculative matters receive our assent by virtue of and thus the act in question is said to be against the law of marriage has for its principal end the begetting and rearing of and this end is competent to man according to his generic wherefore it is common to other animals and thus it is that the is assigned as a marriage But for its secondary as the Philosopher says it among men the community of works that are a necessity of as stated above Article And in reference to this they owe one another which is one of the goods of Furthermore it has another as regards marriage between namely the signification of Christ and the and thus the is said to be a marriage Wherefore the first end corresponds to the marriage of man inasmuch as he is an the inasmuch as he is a the inasmuch as he is a Accordingly plurality of wives neither wholly destroys nor in any way hinders the first end of since one man is sufficient to get children of several and to rear the children born of But though it does not wholly destroy the second it hinders it considerably for there cannot easily be peace in a family where several wives are joined to one since one husband cannot suffice to satisfy the requisitions of several and again because the sharing of several in one occupation is a cause of thus quarrel with one and in like manner the several wives of one The third it removes because as Christ is so also is the Church It is therefore evident from what has been said that plurality of wives is in a way against the law of and in a way not against Matthew is see Where do you get or G is He can do what he depending on what one I  We allow Divine Command Theory on quodammodo the great escape is quōdammodo you TNET I should add that according to Thomas least in the Supplement to the ST polygamy was only allowable via divine dispensation and it could only be dispensed since it was not opposed to the primary end of marriage opposed to the secondary end of natural Thomas is Polygamy totally hinders the first end of the begetting and raising of As in the case of Abraham and How I if having lots of kids is goal assuming sufficient means to support the Having lots of kids is not the having them and raising them well is What about what Jesus says about All you have to do is look at the polygamous families in the OT to see how the part works have the big turf part of Gs without Hagar this all a dead end street for those on the tenure sure troll costume is fully trolling part of the Troll Version of Matthew what did Jesus say about how did polygamy work out for helped to solidify say when one of your sons rapes one of your setting off a blood feud that ends in one of your other sons raping some of your the primary ends of marriage have been pretty thoroughly Not to mention all the killing and the dying Absalon oh on politics is a tough David danced before the the  What about The Where did that come It was allowed on account of your What about all those modern TV shows people J was the rhetoric of the most the shows are a distraction from the waeving through time and Troll I already granted you Defend or Who are you Frank And is your spirit animal a I understand I understand the concubine but not One wife is the law is subservient to the but when in the should follow the could it be allowed if it were totally contrary to the Natural my spirit is I was asking which verb One wife may be too in Matthew I But should I go through the OT law and make you defend everything in it that seems contrary to Probably be fun for everything under I mean The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier Oh you underestimate me My Norse ancestors are descended from Loki How about requiring rape victims to marry their Everybody for Seems cool from a natural law it the same as saying our abortion laws contrary to the natural since they merely allow and in fact Do you remember analogy of the types of people in Sheep capable a lot of guidance of reaching the dogs who wanted everyone to and I think I was what he had in mind the last Oh me too The Dark Knight Some Men Just Want To Watch The World Burn out of great lines from The Dark I guess my thesis is that God allowed a lot of messed up stuff in the Old Law because all society everywhere at that point was premised on the idea of women as And at that point in salvation that what he was trying to bit but a hell of a lot better than the kinds of things you have to say if you want to affirm everything in the Old Law as God allowed a lot of things in the old testament because without grace people are With grace people are terrible but without done the thread is good sport and some want tikkun olam afraid I have been sadly neglecting The Neverending but me I shall soon my fires are but still they Edward stats  Some men have others have like to know thoughts on the Old Law and permissibility at the phony Who is now this officially designated an opening for Greig I second Michael interest in Pater Greig Both on the Old Law and in Everything you say is TAC but you have to sound normal for a while then pull the Linda Michael I just think you know how to do this better than I I have years of and True trolling cannot be We shall never see his like did he Maybe if we say his name in a Greig Good guys we just have to believe in what makes him Why is polygamy multiple Why it be multiple or multiple husbands and multiple How many spouses does it take to change from poligamous relationship to a oh be the facebook is just on he deleted his Peregrine FB What about his Scott Whinerberg polyandry or polyamorous both on I was going to page him no troll like no troll like heels or he blocked me again Probably he likes blocking TACers me in I wonder you see this I graciously accepted his friend request a while only to have it ungraciously happened to me  Guess still around maybe he just blocked this which is why I page him Can the thread once Pater gets us going I have a dinner guest this so be out for most of today So are the arguments for polygamy different than polyandry or polyamorous I think there should be more equality among plural Although I am not sure how a family tree would look if people married each other and they all had Waylon Jennings Will The Wolf The Survive Waylon Jennings Will The Wolf The Lyrics Aloysius Wilson Possible fodder for further TNET and Aloysius Wilson Is McInerny really as wrong about Cajetan and analogy as I have Aloysius Wilson  Looks like tapering ugh is the lgbti community against plural Thomas treats polyandry Timothy Gerard Aloysius fwiw I had an informal course on analogy with a rather brilliant professor during and he argued that McInerny was But that was long and memory fades nature makes it so that paternity is is Motherhood and fatherhood are consequently and therefore polygamy and polyandry are vastly different Michael Beitia Edward Langley Scott Weinberg Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe John Ruplinger Matthew Peterson Joel HF Isak Benedict Joshua Kenz number number and not stopping until I hit my birth year combined and  ie this is why we have nice I agree that polyandry is more degrading to the first end of marriage borrow but would contend that both are equally damaging to the Though is also think clear that polygamy is very degrading to the first end as well Who is Michael A different I assumed you had already hit your birth Everytime the list of top TNETers is I breathe a sigh of that there are people wasting way more time than I not even close I assume that only a few years younger than me numbering my comments I believe still in the top ten barely had any time to get just sexist against Matriarchal colonies of drone not sexist that I bear the nature of things I guess I can take some comfort in the fact that not very close to my birth year Treadmills Moar Podcast it dinner guest on the sorry help you out Polyandry goes against a primary precept of the natural whereas polygyny goes against a secondary precept of the natural To procreation is primary and a women having multiple husbands is to use marriage for another Clearly she can only get pregnant so the primary end is weakened in the use of marriage and the secondary end is Whereas in the primary end is not affected but the end is So both are against the natural but the latter is permissible by God for the sake of the higher end The the objection that polygyny hinders the primary not in its basic I have been thinking we have tried to throw in the of as the primary but that is not really That is an ad hoc change in arguments for Now the education of children does pertain to the common life of but in its basic in the USE of the bodoinky we are speaking of procreation as and as such it is not hindered and can be augmented in whereas at the very least in polyandry it cannot be But I do concede Samantha that a household with multiple wives does have negative consequences to the education of And so we might call it indirectly harmful to the primary insofar as the primary end entails the education of children as something incumbent on In polygyny is a bastardized form of unable to be raised to the state of a because that is the image of Christ and His Church makes for some polygamous analogies with certain belief of many equally McIrnerny is unfair to Cajetan on and is indeed very wrong I have but in all I will drudge up my thoughts on It seems to me that McIrnerny grossly misreads the whole thing Oh McIrnerny first puts his foot down his mouth with the assertion that EVERY reference by Aquinas is purely and does not involve the analogia I think the very common example of health in etc already betrays that as a I studied with a student of McInerny and was told that McInerny thought McInerny was wrong but maybe he later corrected That was a long time see that he has updated his His earlier work was very He also ignores that treatment is not his but can be traced back to the defensiones and to He talks about the view and paints Cajetan as inventing another ignoring or not putting forth any medieval in fact for centuries before we see the substance of his de nomina analogia in other authors I see know reason to see the health example as anything other than a merely logical In my inclination is to deny the analogia unless by that you just mean But I see no need to have two terms for the same  because Scotus allow for analogical I think analogy properly a species of In my opinion Aquinas is too liberal on the question of analogy and predication about Aquinas abandons the doctrine of Dionysius at a critical point think ST or and says that when we call God good we mean that he is of but that he is actually I think a But Aquinas have the benefit of reading the notion that names God in his essence just what Damascene and Dionysius mean when they talk about superessential I think I speak to but for simply means the For Dionysius Perl would be is to be so when we predicate of not predicating anything of his essence one can do but making his ousia a reference But more properly we said God is of than that God is By we mean the guy who pretended to be but really was a Platonist many hundred years Or someone who was named Dionysius and was assimilated by the medievals to even Ralph admits the doctrine of analogia and that Aquinas held In fact such is necessary for analogical really have to go back to his commentary on the Divine names and the Celestial Hierarchy to say more about several years since read I must presume an analogia upon which predication We predicate good of God is not merely a logical We are saying that the being of created considered under the ratio of the reflects God in some The very reality we call good is analogous to God as See what I am It seems clear that is not a purely logical analogy Greig Dionysius as a what does that even In fact what is a I know if we actually I just prefer to talk about analogy in logic and participation in Greig How do you understand the Edward much analytical philosophy On and just as a random the distinction of nun and sister were abolished in and before that followed the distinction of order from A sister took simple nuns took has nothing to do with the false distinction was raised like comments ago and I forgot to correct it then Analogy is a doctrine about the use of Participation is a doctrine about formal for whatever Aquinas never uses the phrase  Your distinction is still your Participation is also and the favorite buzzord of people like is my new hiphop group if the question is the priopriety of the phrase you simply claim that Aquinas would sign off on such a Sure I It is part of the Thomistic Only people lke Fabro have conniptions over As far as I can Thomas is careful to only to use analogy to refer to what was also called a analogia entis was the term invented by Thomists for doctrine on naming Why reinvent the That only proves my as far as I can primarily a doctrine about not about the being of the things That is a dispute over what the doctrine is And I think I gave a good reason why every Thomist from Capreolus to the haughty century with its secret gnosis took it as an analogy of being What do you mean by of Do mean that creatures are created according to a divine And so creaturely perfection derives from divine To the second it is to be said that the Creator and creation are reduced unto not by a community of univocation but of Moreover such a community is able to be in Either from this that some things participate something one according to before and just as potency and act the account of and similarly substance and or from this that one receives existence and the account from the and such is the analogy of creation to the for creation does not have existence except according as it descends from the first whence neither is it named a being except in as much as it imitates the first and similarly is it concerning wisdom and all other things which are said of Sent lib ad Since marriage is no longer about children are the next frontier for The result of which may be seen in the insurance agency requiring a status for adult stop reading Fabro I I was fascinated in my senior year but I got over Read Read And if you really want to understand read Greig On the also Greig just how do you understand Dionysius as a Edward In Sent dicitur secundum analogiam vel secundum intentionem et non secundum esse Vel secundum esse et non secundum intentionem Vel secundum intentionem et secundum What upsets me most about this thread is that in comments there has not been a single bawdy What the hell did they teach you people at There once was a man from Nantucket In the garden of Eden lay Adam Quite merrily boning his madam For he knew in his mirth That upon the whole earth There were only two and he had  Thank you good thank My If Peregine falcon were still here he would get his knickers in a twist about that He can go boil his  take it easy Are you insulting Canadians or take it easy I take it Sean Robertson is a take it No I Take a I think find many Canadians with Platonist sympathies and vice Recent archaeological data suggests Thomas was actually was apparently from Jehoshaphat Escalante Catherine Ryland Jeffrey Bond John Boyer Daniel Jeff Neill Nina Rachele Pater Edmund Megan Baird Adrw Lng can that be pleased if so but I commented much in the last two days It pleases me that my name was Jody Haaf  Lauren Ogrodnick Tim Cantu Frank Morris Sam Rocha Marie Katie Duda Marina Shea Aaron Gigliotti Tom Sundaram Bekah Sims Andrews Philip Knuffke Sean Robertson Megan Caughron Max Summe Aaron Dunkel John Kunz Wendy Irene Jason Van Boom Andrew Whaley Canadians can also be formidable sure But I guess what happens when I have reading I have to do for classes while nursing instead of Facebook And not a Are you It right Jehoshaphat You have more than on the earlier posted It in I taken in account that Jehoshaphat Escalante had changed his Facebook name Joshua Kenz should be in I am The Apology was definitely a Canadian  Maybe growing up in proximity to Ontario the Detroit influenced me to be a Platonist although not as comfortable with that label these More of a  If Canadians are does this mean that De Koninck was a  Edward I think I just like giving you a hard I have no problem calling it as long as one understand that participation as according to That we do not participate univocally but by analogy in the etc See what I did I see what you but not sure phrase it that But I grant that the X in itself and participated X named X Dear you made my evening so much But we can participate either univocally or by And Aquinas is explicit on Indeed he faults Plato for reducing all participation to univocal participation Do you have a I recall texts like but I forget the That is you in the class on the de hebdomadibus Lectio and Essentially there are modes of Species participates genus is a weak and in other places he prefers not to call it matter participates accidents The third via can be either univocal or It is analogical in creature to univocal as fire causes Or as medicine causes I see texts talking about participation according to before and The upshot is that Aquinas sees Platonic participation as The analogia entis can be called participation but one must clarify that it is not according to the manner Aquinas ascribes to Plato So thomists hold that created things are good by analogy not by actually participating in but a would say participation in goodness is they actually according to Analogy mean fictitious or only potentially This is the difficulty I if there is something real common by which the name applies then it would just seem to be if there is no it just be pure I actually need to think out the last I just like to think of participation in terms of efficient which I think is third sense of De it have to involve formal causality as intrinsic but form in the sense of Community according to To say that is not participation is to beg the question about whether participation can be The in the man really is analogous to the goodness of God just the the goodness If we possessed God Himself as our would that be being good by rather than But we say the goodness in us is like to the goodness of Yes But the efficient says why a connection present in first But the efficiency why we call it So since goodness is only man does not participate in he really really according to analogy Analogy does not mean metaphor But Analogies are not real Analogies are dumb like a bag of hammers or a box of all that mean in this case is something like goodness man as goodness God The being which is analogous is real created Divine as God Hmmm sounds accidental That only justifies a transference of the of the but still not sure whether an analogous name corresponds to a single concept or Like I said accidental due to word but not real Neill It is not accidental Ratios are nice but the words are different That I am created by God Sure it is I am not sure if you are being you Is your goodness Are you Or only good by I think you know what that word means challenging your topic you are showing no familiarity with the topic Sorry about but I think it more fruitful to engage Edward Langley Because not quoting I mean to interrupt your Asking questions is relevant The transference of the name is justified because the corresponding concept is analogous to the reality which is What I mean is that not even the concept of divine goodness signifies univocally divine goodness Aquinas certainly speaks of a community of According to before and after is the sense of participation used in the de But the mode is according to efficient as one being receives existence from Sent lib ad If you prefer to engage one on without allowing other might I suggest super Download the I only mean that it is more fruitful to discuss one topic at one Are we asking about doctrine of and its relation to or are we going to analogy and trying to cover the very basic Both can be but it is confusing at the same time and I am just saying I will be answering Langley on this since half of the time he responds I am answering Jeff and vice confusing as In that sense nothing participates in goodness except All participation is by And of course answering anyone else on the same Feel free to have a parallel conversation on the to the very idea of analogy brought by Just two but divergent topics is confusing for me to participate Not all participation is in Accident participates This has already been covered aptly Which is why you should read the cited texts It very well may be what Thomas not sure I agree with So accidents don participate their And we call medicine No we Medicine is not now I know you are a Consider this my last post direct at you It is a cause of effects not all effects are healthy NOT all medicine is healthy SECUNDUUUUM QUIDDDDDDD See Translation sorry i will see myself out now You are young and full of Not a Not in the least Come Put your big boy pants This status has been at the top of my news feed for two weeks Uh huh It is sign of trolling when someone tries to argue over It is stupid as the objection against saying man is a rational that some men are Yes meaning can be good or But we do say that this is as a cause of or that this complexion or urine is healthy as a sign of To object that some medicine is not healthy is an idiotic objection that mises the point How old are you And this just went downhill This is worse than freshmen been I guess he is Not willing to So Lauren I heard they ban baby walkers in Canada if you disagree with why do you block This should be an open how conversions As long as we are doing non serious would that make this depiction of the holy family encourage to break the Deflect Come figure this I think the is that we call the medicine that is healthy because it causes as far as I can there are three levels of community according to names possibly community according to concepts possibly community in reality Without or seems to be pure like the mammal and the stick one hits a baseball is obvious in the case of a univocal then there is one name and one concept and these together pick out one kind of less obvious to me how to parse in some people of Ghent for say that analogous concepts are concepts that appear to be one upon turn out to be As far as I can one interpretation of Aquinas is that there is one concept through is extended to take on additional meanings in a certain not sure at all how to understand how to understand real community of kind existing outside the The triplex consideratio in De Ente makes it seem like the nature is only something in the mind and that everything outside the mind is perhaps view is closer to and there is a real community secundum figure something this is the dark abode of unresolved questions and where your friendliest neighbour could become the troll of your worst spooky As far as analogy it seems to avoid although perhaps Dominic text suggests something is where those questions should move to be discussed to a resolution Discussion group for TACers and friends All hail Joshua He reigns a little bit of periodic I am True that What do you make of analogous Scotus is pretty critical of them in the Lectura but he seems to be focused on Henry of position without considering alternative Goodness would seem to be In the third since it is not in just the however it does not seem to be I have not read scotus but he seems like something I would be interested in If people Unfriend Just Jeff you But I may block Liz soon enough for my own sanity I would have to look at the What exactly is in that by analogous Or maybe that is seeing as SCotus is not at all clear about It looks to me like it means a concept that initially appears to the intellect to be one concept but upon is discovered to be two But just so similar as to be Would that be like call all men then they learn to namely distinguish the concept of man from The example we went over in class was For Henry of to say that the concept is analogous is to say to ordinary it is taken as one When philosophers reflect on that they realize that there actually were two ens negative indeterminatum and ens privative former is such that it cannot receive any further determination while the latter is such that it is able to receive any So pure act and pure in Thomistic terms I think more like esse divinum et esse not sure if the latter is the same as so we are considering ens through namely from any way of and not as principles of abstraction in the Oh I forget the the sort of abstraction by which we say that the genus is not rational  Jeff Neil is the new The context is a question about whether we know God through a concept univocal to him and Do keep in mind I have been awake sins Brain is not functioning as sharply as usual And I am glad another nerd makes homonym and know especially FB for Kidding baby walkers are banned in I guess too many babies were throwing themselves down stairs or But going to take her first steps in Virginia probably and I guess US babies are not as inclined to suicide by means of a walker and a set of  coming Moment of silence for those who lost their I will nerver forget an God bless their So we know that our concept of God or any attribute of is not a proper save in the Beatific So the question do we have one which is referred analogously to or do we have two one for created goodness and another for with that concept being the same but including say containing the denial of Because we cannot have a concept that is not founded on created reality in some I think that might be an important distinction but for Henry of God is the primo true I actually agree just wondering how united in the mind the concepts corresponding to spoken words Play or beat you all up and then shank your goldfish please write like Aristotle always seems to write to Fish sticks Do you like fish Both Josh and Ed are pretty solid thinkers by the way be nice and not throw nasty accusations about youth Do what I do and call people bastards like a The Thread is General of the I have TO THE PEOPLE OF THE I  You TAC mom types do you know we actually have a discussion list for TAC It jumps around much like TNET but we have the sense to separate discussions by We use google groups as our format now from a fb Message me to figure out how to get For all questions on analogy from of comments Joshua Kenz and Edward Understanding Thomas on Analogy This book is a reprint of the dissertation that won the Prize of the Pontifical The analogy of Greg Rocca is good on analogy as well I know someone made recordings of at least a good portion of weekly lecturs on Does anyone have a copy of Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund Caleb Cohoe  wrong with all you gone for ONE and nobody bothers to contradict outrageous assertion that the primary end of marriage is the begetting and NOT the rearing of Do I have to do everything around So let me get this Health is said primarily of the and secondarily of the effects of health and causes of health or This example is to teach us about the only sticking point is the understanding of not sure either is correctly identified as the primary It seems to me I may be waaaaay off base that marriage as sacrament exists to give marriage would exist to get one to through the of offspring maybe that would be the primary supernatural and the begetting and rearing of children would be the primary natural argument would mean that a family with kids who abandon them all is fulfilling the primary end of marriage as well as another family with or fewer kids who raise them Thomas says the primary end is the begetting and rearing of so the deal Do you know better than need to read some more The end of the oak tree is to produce another oak not just an I missed it is quite clear that when one begets children there is an likewise to educate This is always part of the account of the primary end of The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children unto be surprised if Joshua finally Apparently he was quite sleep I think your argument is valid and Samantha you are right that Thomas mentions procreation and education his argument would imply that perfectly fine for a woman whose husband is sterile to have another since all about getting pregnant I have time to look up the references but they are there for anyone believe I understand how still ahead of me in the ever here I I had a streak there for a that it against the primary end of marriage for a woman to have another husband if her first one fails to beget children on I am going to have to be more attentive to my TNET suppose that is if the begetting of children is the primary there would be situations in which polyandry be against the primary end of marriage I really just need to pass up Weinberg so I can hold a comfortable third place for I mind you pass me TNET was flagging there until the scintillating issue of analogy revived Today in Austria we celebrate the victory over the Turks at the battle of Before the battle the Turks were In the town I live All the people gathered in prayer in the and the damnable infidels came and burned the church to the ground with the people Austrians still like I actually meant to say something about this but got a quote in Latin had to type it out by hand since I know of an online latin edition of the Supplement to the III ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui unde et aliis animalibus est ST IIIa Supplement Q Art Which is why their immigration laws are so a Joel really know what that picked up while teaching high I really do need to go But I will be back and better than I To play how does one translate This end is one which we hold and thus it is common to animals Mammals would have been since plenty of animals do nothing to rear their young in any If it is in common with how is it that we take Clearly not any strong sense of would be And if that is the and this end is in common with other how much is expected would polygamy still be contrary to this primary To proceed slightly less the education bit is often taken as an argument against big families I remember reading a NYT article with some lady Episcopalian would be in quotation marks regardless of her and she claimed that the reason Episcopalians had so few children was that they focused on quality not I do wonder if a slightly less elevated standard ought to be held have because we can only afford to send through Princeton and then to Grad I think that polygamy violates the primary I think that educate could be rendered as I think the generally is that offspring must be able to reasonably attain the ends of the said Animals with complex tend to need more time with parents in order to do have by nature the ability to reason and know their is used properly for humans in distinction from other since humans must be taught about their end and how best to pursue at how I always thought about I like last because of the WRONG first but the latter paragraph is what I was going to say in the first paragraph I should have added the qualifier so I might emmend it to I think that polygamy EVIDENTLY violates the primary Aquinas has a text where he talks about had it not been it is highly unlikely that mankind would have been able to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural He hold that it is according to natural What about the arguments about the damage polygamy does to the rearing of that The secondary the one proper to man as and not just as operum quae sunt necessaria in Aristotle NE VIII Here in seems to be not just bodily necessities it includes but also the beginnings of that which man ultimately lives in community family goods which ultimately lead to political I think highly unlikely that would have been willing to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural law be pretty obvious to women Daniel is Aquinas thinks that because of the way in which custom obscures things that the first precepts of natrual law with our greater knowledge of perhaps we could even the first precepts that Man is basically highly likely to err on such I know the arguments that polygamy damages My thought would be that such concerns are proper to our This is because women are more ordered to the second end of Nonsense That being of all the only Isaac had only one fiddling while TNET He had fewer Do you not recall the Old But his children were still pretty messed I need to type obviously The damage polygamy does to children is pretty thoroughly documented in the Old not a modern concern We had this whole conversation Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives and it seems pretty clear that this caused them I missed apparently turned out obviously Ishmael had Ishmael would have to have had serious Daddy and it is opposed to the secondary that which is proper to man qua I still see that it is opposed to No question that polygamy violates the secondary end of Do you think that damage that occurs to children in the process of raising them is incidental to the of I understand how children are the primary when I thought the primary end of all sacraments were the sanctification of the that the primary end of all sacraments qua I think the damage done to women by polygamy should be considered incidental to the primary end of Perhaps one could conclude that polygamy harms the full success of the first end of but does not contradict the first What do you think of Samantha I hate  But how I feel about let me consider what I think about it for a minute The goods of marriage to Thomas following Peter are and I think that is true about Sacraments in but this does not distinguish the Each Sacrament has a proper Joel we must remember to distinguish between the goods of marriage and the ends of The third end of marriage marriage between is signification of Christ and the Though this is only a tertiary and is not common even to all for those with a sacramental marriage it is the most confused about numbering of the ends of marriage and how that relates to the relative importance of those ends I was gonna link them but I type nearly fast enough But it was sloppy to just post that without doing the linkage in that The Church today in her documents tends to not speak of marriage as an institution but as a of the church like to speak of the goods of marriage and not the For I think this is the only difference between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is that in the later the couple are I think please remember that the furthest thing from an that they simply go from most common to most The most important end has got to be the third those for whom that end as far as I can And this speaks to Michael point as I think to say that polygamy is only against natural law I think it is flat out wrong to say that marriage is against natural I edited   I am both consciously and I think it dismissive to wave a hand and say that the proper end of any sacrament differs from the specific end of sacrament difference gives them a end as to be a sign of Christ and his and thus to strengthen each other in It is from the third end that the first and third good I think that polygamy is against natural simply in are for the sake of Each sacrament has a particular means by which that is and thus the other ends are ordered toward Baptism removes original sin for the sake of I think that is but STA thinks that polygamy for could be allowed through a special dispensation from God otherwise it though many gentile nations would fall into but could never be allowed for sacramental I just big time and so I deleted a respond to the clearly stupid thing I What I meant to is that marriage as an institution has ends that are inherent to The first of these ends is Do we have to say that God polygamy in any special other than the way many evils are by raising marriage to a did not change nature He just made the pursuit of those ends of marriage meritorious of efficacious Out of we should be hesitant to say that the Old Testament saints sinned in  aaccch I I Abraham is clearly portrayed as sinning when he takes I think I see why one would read it that I think we are obliged to see the Patriarchs as heroes of not as heroes of virtue I think many not the fathers avoided such aware that they They were Augustine says some of the dumbest things ever said about sex on the topic of the patriarchs and their I am really scared to go against nigh universal patristic David only used his hundreds of wives for Bathsheba was the only time he sinned in   Michael qua sacrament far as I can the mutual strengthening of faith and the marriage as of Christ and the are what is most Unlike the other there is as and sacramental marriage also shares the natural Like I I understand the force of your argument but I am prevented from assenting because of the Joel HF that is along the lines of what I was trying to Augustine was messed up by the Manichees on They used the immorality of the Patriarchs as an argument against the catholic so he felt obliged to defend he was and And it is just hard for us to understand because of the intellectual and cultural customs of our give you the saintly and wise parts hard to understand why a man would want several hundred wives and it at least possible that he saw things more clearly that we I think I that the results of polygamy speak for themselves On a lot of This just flies in the face of everything that is obvious about human nature He wanted so many wives so that he could help bring forth the He only needed Bathsheba to bring forth the And the one situation that Augustine concedes was sinful I think you are right that the Old Testament shows that polygamy is a bad but it worked out pretty plus the sin of David is Bathsheba but he know no scripture but I think we have reason to think that David had of wives do who we are explicitly told had hundreds of clearly sinned in taking so lust seem to have been the prime motivation or even the primary saying he needed to make sure God could bring about his promises by making every attractive woman in Israel and the surrounding nations his wife or after killing their not hundreds for more like The point still stands As for Abraham and fault seem to be lust but lack of on both their FB is lagging for so replying to posts WAY up just to point about why man would take so many think that in a society like it is more about pride and ostentation how powerful I than it is directly about Not that lust involved as but it seems more like signaling to other nations his own subjects how rich and wealthy he a huge part of The point is that Augustine want to think of the Patriarchs as sexual so he came up with this explanation about of their many wives to explain It leads him to make some excuses for polygamy that are It also misses the point of a lot of those the Abraham and Hagar But should we actually feel the need to assert that the patriarchs sin It would be astonishing if they Basically a I think reading of the patriarchs is motivated by his desire to see the patriarchs as and that the text of the OT always bear this That for men back LOTS of would be hugely Which make it right to take a concubine your wife was but is slightly different that plain lust lust can be a compenent as In our men are so desirous of avoiding kids that this is sometimes easy to sin of lust is not really discussed the in only coveting another wife that is and because of the sin against the other not the lust per I keep getting tagged in TNET and I find the post because immensity Adrw tagged trying to see if any one had the audio recordings of lectures on analogy our senior I think the person who made them may be a monk Hi I think I have I will root around a little anyway and see if I find anything Greig left for Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Wall Post DawarKazi set this world record with More distant and more solemn Than a fading just getting caught up on my morning To the point made right after I went to sleep on dialog with No matter how a a person may it does not give them a pass to be It would be easier to think that a patriarch sinned in lust for taking multiple wives and still reaching sainthood or patriarch status than to assume all actions of a patriarch were not sinful Although charity in assuming the best possible answer is If you remove sacramental marriage from the consideration than nearly any configuration for marriage could meet the end of children children do not only occur in although it is more ordered to production of but the point still that if the end of a sacrament insofar as it is a and the of procreation is ordered toward the final The it seems to between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is the grace one receives in that association so that it may be done well vis a vis It is my understanding People who are unable to have children are allowed sacramental marriage since they would be to even though it may not be physically perhaps because the end of marriage is not insofar as it is a sacramental if the proper end of offspring would be thwarted in this and the marriage according to the natural be So in one question would be in the and what does this is it time direct action by parent or is indirect rearing and education I think marriage is unique among the sacraments because it is something prior to being part of the order of The reason for making it a Sacrament seems less directly aimed at sanctification and more at making it easier for the couple to remain faithful the latter is ordered to the former in some I think there are certain physical impediments which are also impediments to Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have whether on the part of the man or the whether absolute or nullifies marriage by its very I think the and meanst that the family exists to bring children to both according to bodily and Impotence may nullify a marriage or does it nullify all marriages ipso Asking for a The only thing different between sacramental marriage and natural marriage is And a natural marriage can be licit with a BORING Totally agree Jehoshaphat talk about mucus viscosity or something with a little more I like the name change Jehoshaphat Shit Catholics why are you handing me a We could talk about the likely event of the Dodgers going to the World and losing We still touched on the American just to use my irenic list of topics from way up Perhaps the last topic would be seeing as this is wall and The American Or whether destruction of the rule of law is ever Or more Whether one should ever follow How did I phrase it waaaay up the founding is based on evil enlightenment or we totally used to sing songs that could be understood in some way as not contrary to the common is why Norton thought I was a I love to watch from the distinguish between the of the American Revolution and the of the Civil War Daniel perhaps it is time to discuss the I hear they are everywhere and control Masons ran Vatican That was the Bavarian Illuminati Vatican II may actually be too controversial even for I may be a but trying real hard to be the paraphrase a silly Nothing to be said about vaccination except everybody get your damn think but this is the Everyone knows vaccinations cause vaguely crunch Catholic types tend to get real squishy on the And They were created by the Masons to impurify our precious bodily Strangelove Precious Bodily Fluids Mandrake and Ripper Vaccines cause gluten Which explains why wheat was eaten just fine for so many and then people started having problems with it gluten sensitivity is tinfoil hats a requirement for attending TAC or Tin Foil Hats Actually Make it Easier for the Government to Track Your Thoughts Or so says MATT SONIAK as part of dress Uncovered heads are Posting the links suggested by the Book of Faces Kool The Gang Celebration Music video by Kool The Gang performing The Island Def Jam Music Group The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Eclipse of You So Long Farewell Long from the film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC I already posted the get with the TNET know how Kool the Gang but Sound of Music makes I think Joshua and I were discussing the abomination that is and I think Daniel posted a Kool and the Gang video many hundreds of comments ago Facebook is very confused by TNET TNET includes all of facebook and Cosmic thread that binds us revealed Astronomers at The Australian National University have found evidence for the textile that What is relationship to If all things are expressions of the what kind of an expression is if any one consider moi a frig all things are expressions of the what kind of an expression is metaphysical at consequence of the Big Bang and the dominance of dark matter is that ordinary matter is like foam on the crest of a into vast interconnected sheets and filaments stretched over enormous cosmic voids much like the structure of a kitchen he kind of like for Michael Beitia Cosmic strings are originally very but hyperdimensional but when observed from low dimensional they may appear They exhibit and The gravitational waves correspond the indeterministic CMBR noise not harmonic but these fibers can behave like SOFAR channel in underwater and they could enable the spreading of weak harmonic ripples with superluminal speed at limited distance at least in Quantum states are maybe I have yet to see anything in my pop physics understanding that makes object more than idle consider cmbr in saints relics as a just noise from a tape run in do you think comporting metaphysics and quantum physics is The inherent quantum fuzziness in electron behavior means that the dryer the is unseen and magnifies the quantum effects to the which is why my socks disappear even though I know I put both in the like only with my socks do the socks usually turn they fall through a superluminal wormhole to the other side of the what the in stands is my who is now what does the M in stand M for no no no My socks have interaction with particles on the other side of the and when something happens to there goes my theorem Dualty The key tool to understanding this breakthrough is something Two theories are to each other if they can be shown to be equivalent under a certain The simplest example of duality is reversing the role of electricity and magnetism in the equations discovered by James Clerk Maxwell of Cambridge University years These are the equations which govern the understanding of even the Internet and familiar with and the standard I just need a reason why I keep missing one always a nice pair like or striped but they eventually turn no they never I have a laundry basket that has tons of single socks in  I think the entangled particles met their annihilating each and my sock I love just watching these conversations Like water lilies all is math Water lilies of true gnosis and enlightenment floating on the muddy waters of earthly Come recommend your favorite now talking about the enlightenment ha ha ha ha had a girl fiend once that had different pairs of black all a little was really hard to match rather than matching she would just buy new Socraticum work on my I gave my recommendation what exactly is the Zeitraffer Seerose Water Lily Zeitraffer einer sich öffnenden Seerose Timelapse of an opening waterlily reveals to us a new perception of processes occurring every These slow movements in time can only be made visable by speeding up the gateway timeout  using a Google so it an old phone  Searching for the wth button Apple watches and expensive This guy forgot to read his rather confused about The big problem with the Apple Watch is that time is an illusion The idea that time passes requires events to be in have as much time to post on TNET as so I just do what I can now and then to stir things up mildly and keep it I seem to remember arguments at TAC about whether time exists if nobody to count the numbers of This is just an example of Vox generating click bait But time exists potentially if no one is present to count Plus the McTaggert argument hinges on some very questionable which the author presents as if this is the only way to view Change is nothing other than an event going from future to present to pace This assertion is He subscribes to an event which necessitates his description of change in this to use the argument from if time is an illusion because there is no we still experience change when we are deluded since we are actually deluded as we move along the C Thus change does exist in our mental therefore there is I This is why I hate sites like Guy reads one philosophy decides it must be valid and then throws up article which proclaims that because time is an illusion he merely asserts by argument rather than proving Apple sell not a problem for but for all Except this is May Vox and its ilk die Vox is BuzzFeed with a I know that more traditional speech about marriage was Seeing as the substance of what I said was in the Liguori I posted as I deny an obligation to rear Not at Is rearing children an end of the use of It is Procreation Rearing is an obligation that flows upon but is not an as of the use of Heck you can rear children without continuing the use of marriage after Yes we simplify things and speak of the ends of marriage as being procreation and and and remedying concupiscence that third is wholly ignored by That was not the sense I was talking but I was referring to the ends Liguori Perhaps I should use a different the intrinsic essential ends are monogamy and the indissoluble These exist even without the use of I believe the code calls them Sadly Aquinas did not treat of this question as He does treat of the of which is a broader term than but he treats of ends of marriage itself in the Super Note carefully what he He does not say the primary end is procreation and Ad primum ergo quod in prole non solum intelligitur procreatio sed etiam educatio ad quam sicut ad finem ordinatur tota communicatio operum quae est inter virum et inquantum sunt matrimonio quia patres naturaliter thesaurizant ut patet et sic in quasi in principali alius quasi secundarius To the first therefore it must be that in not only the procreation of but also their education is to just as to an the entire sharing of works which are between man and inasmuch as they are joined in is since fathers naturally lay up treasures for their as is clear in and in as if in a principal includes another as it were secondary ad In a real while the education of children is demanded by and is included with it as a GOOD of it is not itself an end of the use of And since valid and licit intent to marry follows upon the intrinsic essential ends and includes the licit reasons for the use of whereas the education of children belongs to the good of being a not of its but as an end of the common life of man and wife resulting the education of children should be distinguished from the procreation So even insofar as the of that is common life is weakened in the education of children is also still polygyny does not go directly against the end as to its principal To be use of Bow chicka wow wow not sure how your citation from Aquinas leads one to think that the upbringing of children is not an end of an If X is an end for Y and Y for then X is an end for what I say it an end of I said the opposite of Joshua do you deal the texts I he explicitly deals goods of marriage AND the ends of the which is gathered from commentary on the Sentences Thomas does not seem to consider the cure of concupiscence an end of marriage per Perhaps there is a distinction of and of the use of procreation require it is fairly common without Why have a long relationship bound in a marriage if all procreation takes is one if not for rearing and education of children I said it an end of the USE of but quasi from procreation of and both are understood by in a good of marriage Joel HF I think we were quoting from the same place essentially Procreation is not the only end of and furthermore are natural marriages no not singles bars and alcohol end although the end is temporary Joshua do think that Q of the supplement is where Thomas most directly deals the ends of the quote still have the cut and paste ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui unde et aliis animalibus est And further in the same The secondary the one proper to man as and not just as operum quae sunt necessaria in Aristotle NE VIII Greig Richard Nutley I defer to the knowledge of others who have studied moral I would like to see what you make of the texts from Q missed the distinction between end of marriage and end of use of not sure grant that the end of the use education since the end of the use is instrumental relative to the ends of marriage and thus the latter still are ends of the use in some Yes and Even the power of the pope to dissolve marriage in not consummated marriages and in disparity of cult marriages was strongly resisted by theologians until the Precisely because of the emphasis on indissolubility makes this hard to justify Thomas justifies the dissolution of the when not through the taking of by saying that entering religious life is drying to the world and hence death But once only bodily death divorce is forbidden even to purely natural ony the Church can grant divorce in those as a privilege for the Maybe one could make a similar that being baptised into Christ changes But then the controversial until recently Petrine privilege jive is why it was Greig Richard Nutley Paul basically if your spouse wants a grant Or am I Thomas implies that marriage as sacrament is what makes it truly that is the Pauline But it remains that divorce is forbidden even to natural save as a privilege of faith Paul allows it because Baptism is a real A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no except For a just the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a party at the request of both parties or of one of even if the other party is A marriage entered into by two persons is dissolved by means of the pauline privilege in favor of the faith of the party who has received baptism by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by the same provided that the party The party is considered to depart if he or she does not wish to cohabit with the baptized party or to cohabit peacefully without aVront to the Creator unless the baptized after baptism was has given the other a just cause for Just some Edward read commentary on Ia Q Art the dispute we were having WAAAY note that the first thing Cajetan notes is that the article is dealing with whether created can know God and not with whether any the original quote of yours I took exception to was if you truly were talking about the end of the of marriage and not the end of marriage I think discussing the end of marriage is more relevant to the issue of No discussion among TACers can avoid sex talk for very a Roman who divorced and remarried and THEN he have to put his wife I do think there is some confusion in terminology are all used differently in different Perhaps I should have avoided manner of Seems rather harsh for the Gentile Israelites have a special dispensation to divorce AND take multiple no Good luck with My understanding is that the prohibition is of divine positive and was given by Though it is a question what about before that with the says Moses allowed means it is after the Noahide covenant just convert to although an adult bris may be the dispensation would be for And Thomas understands the reason for the prohibition for Christians to be because marriage is a sign of Christ and his Church and Christ is one I am not sure about whom the dispensation was for Jews and But it is certain that after Christ no not pagans are Christians can take multiple wives or divorce the few odd non Is there a question about whether Thomas things polygamy is prohibited now to I am not sure when that was settled XIV certainly thinks it as If of divine positive it only bind the baptized to whom it was This discussion is all moot since the Archangel Maroni relieved us of that silly wife at a it binds That is why only the Church can grant divorce to anyone There is no question that Thomas thinks that polygamy is contrary to natural And God of course could dispense it polygamy to be contrary in a way that it could be for baptized or The question is whether new teaching on marriage apply to everyone or just the Also whether the original dispensation only applied to the Oh Well Matt Walsh says monogamy is not Samantha love Monogamy is unnatural The Matt Walsh Blog Monogamous marriages are On I Who is Matt For the on the whole I think he is rather A Just another what do you mean who is Matt Walsh uuuuuuugh Matt Walsh not reading but if he means not in accord with our fallen then sure like I mean to haha I get offended That sounds like a  bring it I mean never heard of My finger is far from the pulse of Catholic Thank not all just Like he was SO WRONG about  And actually the only post of his ever Noah is a nice What did he say about Re Anyone here familiar with the occasion for Diogenes the wish that he could relieve his hunger by rubbing his Erik Bootsma Noah the Or Noah the the the loud Catholic bloggers are generally just the he just made fun of It was kind of but he at all fair to especially on no accounting for I once read chaque a son gout Bloggers are usually a waste of Sometimes a welcome waste of on the other is never a waste of Joel that story is vaguely His Noah review was where I began to suspect he had no literary His piece on Robin Williams was where I realized an obnoxious turd and stopped promoting his Oh never a waste of talk to Joseph Andrew The only good blogs run across Joel HF With regard to the the Church has answered binds That is why if I seek to marry an unbaptised who her unbaptised I Because they are still married in the eyes of the But if she is baptised and he will not live with that is But note only upon baprism does the Pauline privilege So before no divorce ASS yes I mean not is an older But of course this is merely baccking the assertion that it is not an explanation of how With regard to the that I do not article implies it was only to the Jew wrt I knew Matt Walsh was going to make an appearance here As well as from time to Erik do you think I first heard the been running that Thomism blog for over a decade I mind Matt as long as aware he is being intentionally inflammatory and and sometimes intentionally he was better longer But still but of that is how you grow readership nobody likes reading a bore a good There are definitely some bloggers whose charm is their While she might not be to Ann Coulter is a prime example of Does Walsh have a particular Like you Mark Shea has cornered the whole Catholic who is almost always obnoxiously wrong and is even when  This is a good blog that everyone here should go Dan Herrick Philosophy Philosophy with a vision to bring you closer to God through daily articles and interactive Think as much as Walsh I think manages to be right of the time and nearly always imprudent in his manner of What is imprudent per se is prudent blogiciter No one ever got followers on the internet by being measured and The death of google reader really meant I stopped following most Mostly sports blogs The hard thing to see when one agrees with x blogger is how he is to everyone who disagrees with And perhaps vice feedly is pretty Did Herrick overlap Caleb at He and his wife are very close friends of also an amazing So no one ever answered what if is doctrine on predestination different from Joshua Samantha Jehoshaphat Escalante Double single I understand that double single predestination stuff is just a technicality I think the difference between saying that God permits an evil saying that God wills an I know for though sure lots of overlap and they both pretty much lifted their views from Augustine Reading Thomas on the subject reminds me of the caricature in a bad version of double predestination that I learnt as a but with lots of distinctions thrown in and presented much more But not sure I even understand and heaven knows this is hardly a settled question in the church as to the actual doctrine or as to what Thomas I looked at the Summa passages and pretty careful to distinguish what God orders from what he permits doctrine on predestination need not be read as all that different than Aquinas or This is a gross especially since TULIP is not always like by Calvinists to summarize their doctrine but take it for what it is worth Total Any actual Calvinist I have read does not understand this as I had been led to think they What I mean if one that every act before justification is a sure that is But every act before justification is a in a certain This is explicit in Augustine and is in Aquinas who understands it to mean that no act can be rightly ordered to our due final Which is Unconditional God elects some people for without regarding foreseen If we understand by this complete predestination is both to grace and that all Catholics agree that it is it would be heretical to say If understood as referring only to the election to and not to then some Molinists hold that this is but most have held unconditional excepting the late Most and his weird all Catholics hold that positive reprobation decree predestining this person to is based on foreseen demerits Augustine holds quite but some Molinists hold that negative reprobation passing over and permitting to is based on foreseen but including hold that negative reprobation is unconditional permission to sin is given because of foreseen If we understand to mean from all predestines some to heaven and others to Well that is Catholic even if we came to use predestination to refer to and reprobation for the decree to damnation to avoid If we understand it to means complete predestination the end and the means then we only hold this as unconditional and predestined with election God is the cause not just of glory but of but we deny it of reprobation decrees the He does not cause us to most Calvinists I have read would hold a similar distinction and would not make God a predestinator of Limited If this is understood to mean in every Christ died only for the then we hold this as in a Jansenist if it means Christ died only for the faithful only for those that will obtain grace at some even if they should fall it is offensive to pious ears and savoring of heresy are the But if we understand it to mean that death is only effective for the or the faithful in but sufficient for and we affirm the antecedent will to save all then this is in accord with the Roman Catechism explaining Calvinists are divided on how to understand I myself have read Calvin make a similar distinction to antecedent and consequent I believe of and was the Remember that Aquinas simply speaking God does NOT will the salvation of but only secundum And this seems obviously in that God could predestine everyone to heaven regardless of your views on how that but does Irresistible We must say that the will is free to resist even under the influence of efficacious but what does that By definition it will not resist under efficacious grace after The way it can resist is only the same as when I say am I could But while I am sitting I cannot be From my some Calvinists present irresistible grace as a victorious which is And this is held both in a corrupted form by and by One is the other Approval is made on the condition that one does not hold it as something extrinsically necessitating the But the necessity is through an infallible moral motion of the Others I have heard explain it like with the physical of the Others do not think it wise to I have yet to meet a Calvinist that holds there is no freedom in the Whether the details of how this or that one holds the workings are compatible with Catholic well that But I think as a general it need not be opposed Perseverance of the The doctrine that one who is justified will not fall from that Here we clearly To Calvinists anyone predestined to grace is predestined to We hold some come to but fall and do not obtain Jehoshaphat Escalante can correct me on any of the points about Calvinist I know it is not always as monolithic as the caricature I I know there are many internet commenters that Calvinist who fit the But thus is my understanding of serious Calvinist Yes Joshua thats basically right  funny because I totally read and it was awesome For Michael Beitia Calvinists all agree on but by and large what they hold on predestination is not contrary to what Catholics may with the exception of the belief that those who come to grace do not fall away from grace predestined to grace you are predestined to Was that short It could have been Or say something which would inspire a reader to pay I did read it was my way of saying I have nothing of value to and still get notifications when the subject changes to something I more interest Wish me luck featuring my poetry tonight in front of real live I will compose an ode to TNET if all goes post video somewhere Bonne I will try to have someone with a magic phone capture a poem or two write a poem on the magic The Dubliners the Pogues Whiskey in the jar From their collaboration in good Thin The all the real irish gets good maybe here this in church one day at midnight mass this The Pogues With The Dubliners the pogues perform the irish rover with the dubliners RIP RONNIE DREW And Dirty old town The Pogues Brilliant song the barque of song for Ian Paisley a bit torn about What he did in his last few years to bring about the peace was noble but what a May God forgive on bbc he said in an old interview that he had a brush with it focused his hard years of orange men in one will never be another Reverend Ian just as long as you stick to old and not the sick bed of i never liked dirty old It was Christmas in the drunk old man said to not see another he sang a Rare Old Mountain Dew I turned my face away And dreamed about you The Pogues The Rocky Road To Dublin Previously unreleased if the barque of peter the wee boys would have kicked the bottom out of maybe better The dropkick Rocky road to dublin uber irish rock song Lemongrab Unacceptable Back and Forth Play whatever you the thread is wide open cmon Paisley only gets to die there is some dancing in some sectors times like these when proud to I have zero Irish blood in I know how sensitive you Irish types basques a willful Frank ETA or ETA all day the Guggenheim in Bilbao is an abomination should be blown up on aesthetic principle lol will call an I actually like Richard but gustibus  Did you hear the one about the IRA foot soldier who went to I He saying me Father for I have I blew up the railway tracks last kicked out of the And so the priest I will absolve but for your pennance I want you to do the  I was talking about the building itself Frank I believe it looks like that other one of in downtown The Walt Disney Concert Better than the art the List of works by Frank Gehry the free encyclopedia This list of works by Frank Gehry categorizes the work crap from top to bottom  I think it is to deflect lasers when the aliens finally attack a Transformer opens at LACMA With iPhones and cameras crowds virtually stampeded the white concrete path to view Michael LOS ANGELES TIMES except instead of sleeping in the shape of a car or it is an inside out fun house I that a big on two A big rock on a They shut down the freeway system to move it on a huge So close to I have anything controversial to the sculpture is the Jane Austen of sculpture  I was able to get verification that the definition of conception is not at meet Catherine Ryland Bring up Fifth Postulate just for Dirty Old Town is a fantastic Machiavelli was far before his The prince is a great book on leadership and applies incredibly well infernal business TNET need to take the weekend off Matthew Peterson say you ask for Working For The Weekend Working For The Weekend Copyright Disclaimer Under Section of the Copyright Act TNET just when I thought I was going to get some writing Did we do Others were but from the timing it appears that Matthew heeded our sadness in I think his Or else he hates your I am writing about illumination theory in the later middle ages Somebody tag I want to know how his poetry reading The Divine Reflections on Austen Video The Morgan Library Museum Watch more You guys have really slowed I was expecting exponential Matthew Peterson keeps shutting us Isak up  Do you think Matthew was getting I take the new instruction on blocking TNET to be evidence of this beats I just want all these super smart types to explain to me quantum mechanics using only matter and That should be good for a couple hundred and I think you have to phrase your challenge a little more specifically if you want it to take physics are and take into account the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing matter and form only describe notional or human made divisions and not nature the division is Handwaving Heisenberg handwaving potency handwaving indeterminate handwaving and that Michael  pay no attention to the man behind the Mckeon Not enough of us hylomorphic types that really describe know enough about QM to really say much at I think Caleb ask him at dinner and get back to maybe everyone should go home and read their Copenhagen But that stopped from writing about relativity or hell even classical now has dinner table Is everybody impressed that Cornel West thinks Jane Austen is all about Cornel West is so If Austen is about freedom rather be a natural slave was accused freedom to be banal Cornel West is disappointed in If eliciting disappointment was I be at right now  Cornel disappointed I hope you feel So Scottish For or I feel empowered Or is that too relevant a topic to be discussed amongst TAC if Groundskeeper Willie is for against it for reasons of historical  I love Brother Here he is in a cab talking about Plato et Examined Life Cornel West Cornel West excerpts from Examined a documentary film directed by Astra The And in favor of Scottish This is not a deeply thought out I think pleasing the way the line of succession joined up both nations in James I and Great Britain is awesome and did lots of awesome things and it would be sad if it went out of This will all be moot when they bring back the rightful kings of Scotland Is there still a Stuart claimant kicking around somewhere hoping the Jacobites take control of Scottish I love this English hegemony has been destructive in several parts of the Time to end it Duke of is the current head of the Stuart I been destructive In different so does Franz have a real shot at taking the Scottish throne if independence If I reverse my position Sadly for us none since the cardinal king Henry IX have actually claimed their rightful the divine right of kings needs the consent of neither the governed nor made up that last I think even the divine right of kings recognizes But we do have the precedent of forcibly making men bishops and even so I think the current idea is that the Queen would still be monarch over divine right of kings is mythological Kinda like back So Scotland would still be in the the divine right thing was a modern That is not how to claim sort of grew up side by side with the myth of Daniel already established that the Stuarts are the rightful Michael I suspect you of harboring modernist enlightenment still in the just poorer and in a worse position all suspect a anarchist But Even King David derived is right to rule from the consent of the people of Anarchists carry Kind of wrecks the spirit of the If anyone had a divine right to rule it was which species of anarchism are you talking I think to become independent from England and not be part of the Commonwealth you have to kill a lot of a type of I keep track of all your worse than bwahahaha worse than Protestantism except King David derived his right to rule from the consent of the On that libertarian I always come out way to the left and slightly into the authoritarian Not on the division got us Libertarians suck What about I always come out way to the left and not they ask about social issues like then I float more toward Ayn Rand as the natural successor and fulfillment of Strong words on re Aristotle invented it and it took until Heisenberg et al for scientists to get the exactly and The the telos must be optimization and for the common The Noble Truths to counter balance the Noble but what is the means to the what is the next tell me that particles are or have incomplete substantial that would be completely substantial form is a noble lie prove Kinda like calling an electron either a wave or a particle not wave and where are When waves and particles are just models of experimental that would be non sense waves are I was referring to the way physics is the metaphysical and just a humble baby did old invent or somehow observe baby just a midwife that was inflammatory But Heisenberg did tell us to think about QM probability as is that the threads are And uncertainty principle is roughly what one would expect to find if the material parts of substances had less being than complete since the less actual is less quoting Heisenberg out of context he follows up the by saying physics is of course not satisfied with only qualitative description of the fundamental structure of it must try on the basis of careful experimental investigations to get a mathematical formulation of those natural laws that determine the of home next to my book case now I see how that nullifies my it more indicates to me that he has the relation between the and the read the seminar and a supporter of every I suppose our which causes waveform gives the particle its substantial or but what if the quality and quantity keeps shifting the more and more closely one wow was pretty now need to comport laws of physics with moral law and The reading really could not have gone any folks thanks for the Unfortunately I think there is any video but maybe that will be an upcoming Also TNET Once more into the and fill the walls with our English this hit minutes A Pioneer as Elusive as His Particle The Nobel laureate Peter whose public appearances have been as rare and fleeting as DENNIS OVERBYE Dying was nothing and he had no picture of it nor fear of it in his But living was a field of grain blowing in the wind on the side of a Living was a hawk in the Living was an earthen jar of water in the dust of the threshing with the grain flailed out and the chaff Living was a horse between your legs and a carbine under one leg and a hill and a valley and a stream with trees along it and the far side of the valley and the hills this is CATHOLIC Actus Et Potentia A technical expression in scholastic phraseology used to translate energeia or and dynamis Michael Beitia Everyone knows that prime matter is Berquist said On another I just found out that common practice for Catholic parishes to charge per child for Sunday What the charge  we have catechism once a week and they provide the book Glad to hear the practice but several catholic ladies i know confirmed the practice in their parish what people pay they commit have no problem with a small fee to teach the children the My grand parents took their gold wedding rings and donated them to the church for the is and buy in helps the hmm Ed was saying something funny about and then he went You could use the same argument to support charging admittance for In evangelical Sunday school is a part of You charge people to be ministered mass is the Eucharist is a common so is teaching about Jesus the gospel is a common good and the little children are brought away from the and taught the the parents went to church and brought the it i liked the Actus Et Potentia you TNET for introducing it to I get the impression that pretty hard to be a family with little kids in the Catholic No not a lot of programs and then there are all the people in mass who expect all children to sit still and quiet through the whole i like it when the priest calls the fussing of children the voice of A crying child is a wonderful excuse to avoid a bad homily get me started on bad homilies and a a bad homily is a wonderful opportunity to express humility and stay I am rightly rebuked for my lack of I guess I will have to stop pinching my children to get them to cry when I want to escape a deadly There are Catholic churches with Sunday I was told by a priest once that the crying of infants is how we sound to small consolation as my screamed incessantly for the first two years of his and not a Mass mass and eternal at every moment on the time thing shall harness for God the energies of And for the second time in the history of the man will have discovered teillard chardin White Lion When the Children Cry White Lion When the Children Cry Music little dry your crying can i I find the idea of or to be I hate pandering Oh pandering about teaching children about Is it pandering to support families attempting to bring up their children in the And I know call it a but already used in the service sort of a generic separating and talking down to them is not the same as supporting or teaching Norman Greenbaum Spirit in the Sky Thanks for the likes people apparently you had a bad experience with Sunday school somewhere along the Mine have been especially the ones my kids are involved Sam Rocha this is what the youth mass at Stuebenville was Norman Greenbaum Spirit in the Sky Thanks for the likes people Psychedelic gospel Pure A Jewish rocker singing about Dig Samantha been to pretty much every church Raised as an but grew up in Mormon As to my thoughts on I have four children that have made first and have been through catechism of with each of I have anything to contribute to this I just wanted to provide the I mean to make condescending assumptions or I just see why you would say Sunday school is to kids if you had a bad been in just about every kind of church Sunday school can be bad if its done but a not a I but for obvious I think Sunday should be the family all Separation is never I can see how it would appeal to parents But there is Sunday school and Sunday And bad homilies and homilies that are an occasion of sin for which taking out crying babies is a but what happened to physics contra adn we have been derailed mine makes Never heard Aristoilet May I submit this as another of many road goes on forever and the party never The Highwaymen The Road Goes On Forever From the album The Road Goes On Forever like only all his arguments are crap Does he make any sounds when you kick or does he just things are looking Just submitted proposals to the Kalamazoo Medieval Congress at the midnight So got no takers in a defense of How about a does a rock have a substantial Or do all the diverse parts of the rocks have substantial and the whole is an accidental Does it really make sense to talk about substantial forms outside of living I would take you up but my ignorance has been exposed too many times Good questions but physics is filed in my memory archives under what is the substantial form of a That which makes a cat to be a the particular instantiation of The whatness of the stufficity whereby one cats a I forgot An essentially hypocritical whatness or a cosmetically clean and pure animal that preens continually and licks the unlickable to have the most spotless We have had some cats in the last Distinguishing attributes and properties from their quiddity is my The substantial forms of inanimate things are weak yet still the principle of In the case of animate things they are stronger but naming is never as precise as we would It is but straw in the end and yet invaluable straw that prevents Without them the world is unintelligible and the atomists and nominalists do not escape the problem they betray their reliance in ordinary how is it not When it falls away from the it is less than what it was supposed to Standing cat is not but it looks like one at it lacks the catness of Less catastic due to uncatly behavior Catastrophic catness admits of Schrodinger may have something to say about that Or not Schrodinger is or is I can has or can not Forget medieval All hail I shall never depart from this These are serious questions I see how physics means If all we mean by is what it is to be what it I see how anything can be deduced or learned from this tautology I agree that your questions are serious but I am really too illiterate to I have similar concerns though about modern mathematical formulae seem to hide more than they reveal and veer off into the land of fantasy and and that is an age old criticism of give them time and they refute But thanks to you I am now wondering what the whatness of everything the is a corrective for seeing only invisible but is not demonstrative I read the physics in too long but the intelligibility of things requires a doctrine of The alternatives lead to the first question can you really explain change without recourse to form and It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public the real welfare of the great body of the is the supreme object to be and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public my voice would Reject the Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public it would Abolish the In like as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the the voice of every good citizen must Let the former be sacrificed to the latter And is not the same as substantial form of since includes matter disposed to receive such a yes I can so an anarchist form of has only notional because it is not separable from cat Cat That is the cat Does it have Does it have a Then it must be a Monkey Silly Song Silly Song from Big the makers of This song can be seen on the DVD  not a cat an ape But does the notional participate in a Here is a cat Note both the fur and the a monkey If I rearrange the dna sequence of a chicken I get a small Is it a toothed chicken with or how does substantial form explain anything more than simply a rearrangement of Samantha started reading Gilead realize it was set in the tone is very Congregationalist are a rural minority around here Very It explains the principle of a unicity and Did you really create a ALL THE It takes too long to type anything with one so I just  Abandon forms and down down the slick slope to militant magisterial nominalist aka RIP Matter without form is just algae not worse than senseless things if And even the stone no matter without they are might extend this to say no matter and I think duck the question because notional distinction explain modern It works well as a but get Ockhamized in the end But I have the comprehensive theory for everything A couple stones to As things increase in complexity the need for a principle of unicity is more But things like mud and stone and atoms appear to have almost no form at Rather they are matter to be ordered and stuff to be taken up by beings of higher Modern science is at loss to explain the ordering and unifying it would be tidier if the question ack biology is just applied chemistry is just applied and physics is just applied unicity is meaningless at the most basic pile of stones has no but each of the constituents I suppose the question of modern science pushes the level of unicity to another Are atoms yes and are the constituents of atoms yes and where is the All electrons are the same So DNA on the cellular level is the unifying and ordering principle of the All the individual cells just tap into the world spirit or and they get on the same page without any need for commitees to assign and oversee the formation and proper alignment of biology is But formality makes more sense with living but there a sort of mathematical unity that is given to something by virtue of structure on the DNA mathematics idolatry Just smash it I see problems with the substantial form but I will stick with it until the next best I answer your objections but it gets messy as you acknowledge without Beitia has already seen but adding it to the thread because I know there are other fans of Darnielle Mountain Goats out Rocha John author of Wolf in White Van Nearly every song on John fourteen a big but his politics are just so I know about his but tell I want to spoil the  look up live shows from the years or I saw him play as a duo with his bassist in Detroit in He say much between It was a great not trying to argue about it I usually pay any attention to a politics unless an integral part of music Billy I second it will spoil new why do think we care about their political because we Why is Maybe we should ask them about the substantial form of a pile of most actors are a pile of rocks the Their may give them special rocks have substantial form cure for hyperdulia of Matthew I fear that it may be necessary one it already necessary to abolish the Union for the preservation of the public I have a question for the denizens of What exactly was the manna in the The Israelites jokingly called it but what did they call it when they gnosis sustenative rock bread material I always pictured it as a super thin graham Dried Now you know why they complained so A super thin graham cracker made out of protein the Jacobite heir is a Bavarian duke at this The last real claimant to the throne was Henry Cardinal Benedict He almost became and so came very close to uniting in his person king of England and head of In his latter years he was financially supported by the Hannover And the in the to the Stuart including the good Cardinal Duke of was last restored through generous donation from think they have reconciled Daniel authority is not derived from consent of the you I I It frustrates me to no end that I have every issue of the Thomist save the because there were some great articles in that One was on various competing theories of the authority of was fascinating and the author was better versed than I in explaining Thomas here to show I submit to the magisterium who believe civil society to have risen from the free consent of looking for the origin of its authority from the same say that each individual has given up something of his and that voluntarily every person has put himself into the power of the one man in whose person the whole of those rights has been But it is a great error not to what is that as they are not a nomad have been without their own free for a natural community of It is that the pact which they allege is openly a falsehood and a and that it has no authority to confer on political power such great and firmness as the safety of the State and the common good of the citizens Then only will the government have all those ornaments and when it is understood to emanate from God as its august and most sacred Leo In a rather nasty I had with some in which a priest had to repeatedly call people on misrepresenting what I I summed up my views and this still makes the best sense tome derives all of its just authority from the common The actual establishment of goverment may be of different The authority comes from Those are the propositions which all Catholics must agree The particular Thomistic view I take is actual far more congenial to a than other permissable It is simply there is a natural law inclination to form in a It is necessary that such be so there is an obligation to set up a few or many in This does not require explicit but only and the authority is not derived from the consent as from its rather it is usually determined by In extraordinary cases even that is not as say in the papacy or when God in the Old chose But to see someone who really knows his see if you cannot find Thomist January Also from Diurturnum forgot how great that Encyclical very many men of more recent walking in the footsteps of those who in a former age assumed to themselves the name of say that all power comes from the so that those who exercise it in the State do so not as their but as delegated to them by the and by this it can be revoked by the will of the very people by whom it was But from Catholics who affirm that the right to rule is from as from a natural and necessary It is of to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic And by this in the ruler is but the rights of ruling are not thereby Nor is the authority delegated to but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined saying authority comes from seems to me to be like answering the greater glory of to any historical What is wrong with nothing But then we say that bad rulers rule by and then we have to distinguish between active and passive and it all gets very complicated Isak when I was briefly in Catholic school my first foray into public but before my one semester of I was taught the manna was bird Literal bird sure it a graham those we invented to carnal and by a mysterious twist of fate hit on the exact chemical constitution of the manna in the IDK if the land Israelites were suppressing any carnal they have to eat crow or sumpin before the carnal urges in store for us ya belly full and belly So our candidates for the role are rock bread a super thin graham and bird A promising I think you could all do better if you cited some text up in  I believe the manna was crystallized gnosis Manna the free encyclopedia Manna or wa و sometimes Some say it was  That evening quail came and covered the and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the When the dew was thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert When the Israelites saw they said to each is For they did not know what it Quail The wiki article is a good Some kind of entheogen would make like the kykeon of the Eleusinian If they let it the good book says it became nasty and full of maggots right Had to boil it so it would I Obviously it was Or Feta This has been on my newsfeed for just noticed how many posts it The taste was supposedly Haydock says it was not Arabian I even know what Arabian manna Tim TNET has drawn you TNET is always What is TNET is what gives your comments their an energy field created by all living It surrounds us and penetrates it binds the galaxy Cool Its just not I Not many substance refrain from spoiling by maggots every seventh And only allow for a limited daily Daily bread from But it does spoil if they try to save it for later without boiling Aloysius Wilson Is TNET expecting Can it even except But I just read New My Bible is How long was this the only is that the pact they allege is openly a falsehood and a The antecedent of  I wonder where they went in those or did they just go satisfied on eating And doing And never getting to a body of water for I know it is metaphorically but it seems to challenge It was never the only They had milk and They also bought supplies from neighboring They What were they punished for That is very How do you wander with years worth of It would seem they may have stopped for years at a time to replenish but years worth of mana and wandering seems more to maintain the they might have only had enough to make offerings not certain about I assume they always moving but also not John I thought they were punished for not believing that they could take over the promised land from its current I deny what you Although I think there is room for of the in those This is not simply to authority coming from At least this is how I have always understood Perhaps I am Lendman I was being somewhat tongue in The article I recommended makes it clear that consent of the governed in some way plays a role in every Catholic theory including was a certain kind of whereas Suarez and Bellarmine had a kind of transference theory held that pure democracy was naturally Whereas Aquinas held that pure democracy was not a natural form of and hence not presupposed by the rule of a or But still his view was not quite the same as And in I think such a mechanism is needed with say My understanding is for the actual establishment of a rule is required by the natural but if that rule is established directly by the source of then the secondary causality of our politicking is the other theory is the Not Transference mistates it The why we can reject the claim that the of the authority is the consent of the is threefold Some authority is given in as father over The father need not his consent in order to bind him in conscience Some authority is given by God as in the The pope does not need the consent of the faithful to govern Just as no individual merely by being a member of a common society can have authority over another of that same neither can any number of even a even in our even if the vast majority still those in governance have lawful authority for this or that and that authority may bind in The analogy with fatherhood is The son is not free to choose whether to be governed or It is given is Likewise with Now Bellarmine and Suarez recognized and proceeded to argue that since society needs a that given by God else it could not bind in is primordially and naturally present in the whole democracy is a natural But Aquinas lend himself to Rule requires some form of hierarchy and unitive And so this authority never even considered to the mass of the but by an obligation of the natural and often tacitly rather than openly think of rise to in the Walking they do transmit said authority to a few or Not but It only has the as it of authority when so transmitted and not The designation on the other given by Bossuet would hold it something akin to how Cardinals select the The merely designate the man to whom God grants They in no sense transfer authority to as if it were theirs to as indeed their entire authority derives from him You are going to love Daniel but Cajetan can be credited with introducing both the transmission and designation He ascribed the former to royal the latter to Suarez and Bellarmine took the former to a different that I hold is So we could if I am that the formation of political authority is like the establishment of human Natural law may dictate that one should drive on one side of the road as leads to demanding certain safety But this or that is determined by human In the the determination of authority is more or less already but in political society it pertains to consent of the to give it its further without which it does not exist as the rule to drive on one side cannot exist unless which side that is is Does this seem To be you are saying that the consent of the governed at some level or at some time or in some manner must be given to make the the or the many the ultimate authority in a given explicitly or Well with the exception of divine Just as with the God could just say Bob here will be your obey Kind of causing the effect directly rather than through the natural processes there Are you considering the consent of the governed to be a principle of lawful or merely a condition of More clearly the way Matthew stated your position makes it sound like you are merely pointing out an obvious condition for government to A people that will not be will not be Are you claiming further that the consent of the governed is a of Yes it Of once established the acts of the sovereign remain binding in conscience they are not unjust as long as there is some ordering to the common even if a majority disagree with this or that etc difficulties The common good is the justification for the acts of Consent of the governed for who will God for the basis of its even over the will of one who does not want to be It seems to me that once it is not like the new upon the age of deliberate about Natural law is that there be an and an authority is in the case of an existing a given least I am not sure if you are saying authority is derived from the consent of the governed or Could you explain what the difference is between authority and the consent of those Does my question make I might just be missing I am denying that it is derived by the consent of the governed That would imply that the as was theirs to give or that it was as by their Neither can be the it does belong to in any of the Catholic to give determination to the form of most frequently tacitly I Would that not make it a necessary condition rather than a Andrew The Neverending Thread is talking about transmission and designation Joshua Kenz have you read Elliot piece on The Notes on the Relation between Sovereignty and Commonwealth I But I shall The violence inherent in the system in the formation of Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence Statehood and Recorded at Boston by Stuart manna The Philosophers Stone For many ages our great ancestors had known about what we call philosophers However it manna is Who on this thread recommended The almost finished getting super scary The end is SO think I stole this from a facebook Karl We Give the Scottish Independence Referendum the Since God speaking to us from pillars of the problem in these debates over consent is what the more traditional types thundering against consent mean The practical options as regards deciding on a fundamental regime form are or of in the course of human events both are involved in foundings and and force and violence seems to This is because many do not seem to care about consent or Force and violence domestically are more often than not signs that one or both sides are seeking and not the public To say that consent is not part of whether or not a given people chooses whether the the or the many ought to fundamentally govern seems to suggest that the wise rule by and politics then becomes an arms race between various groups claiming to be the wise that are justified in using Liberalism begins by trying to mitigate the problem consent being a barrier to force and So the problem with ancien regime platitudes like has no and is the office of the wise to is that what truth and error and who is is precisely what is in dispute in political and the more so they are in the more meaningless such propositions They solve Do we determine what error and wisdom are and how they ought to be implemented via something more akin to an arms race and or by something more akin to persuasion and the by the who is the founding father of the common good and virtue and justice rightly understood being the end of the was well aware of this and thus did not childishly repeat such mantras when he rolled up his sleeves to discuss He for that even if the many assert that justice is and the few assert that justice is had extreme and incorrect understandings of one must give both views a say in an attempt to give the mean and the correct understanding of justice a fighting This is also why he is so big on the existence of a middle so understanding of ostracism and attempts to keep the oligarchs in line no less than the Is Scotland giving consent say consent of the governed is virtually never given unless consent means please stop shooting Aristotle is also great for understanding the overratedness of written Hamilton and Madison agreed with both of those I pretty much agree with Elliot piece on Sovereignty that Pater Edmund linked the transmission theory of authority which holds that the entire political community is invested with political authority is in my opinion incompatible with the essential function of political unification of action for the common good when the means to the common good is not uniquely Of If every member of the community is invested with authority there is no authority properly speaking because direction towards the common good is simply not possible in the vast majority of cases where the means to common good not uniquely Any decision would have to be but authority is intended to supply unanimity on account of the very impossibility of attaining Finnis Natural Law and Natural Rights Also how is thing still I stopped following it around the or But very few actual political bodies have ever meant that the consent must be Usually it is a mixture of the majority and some outside understanding or standard of right and wrong and what is why the modern of leviathanic proportions is so what could consent even mean in a country of million Yes means of also means No means if the person saying no lacks the power to defend their Who is wise is really not Indeed in democracy there is a long standing tradition of despising anyone who reminds us of As to the rest of remarks or rather snipes they are hardly worthy of response as if Aristotle were aware of the so called platitude that error has no rights indeed nowhere mentioned by Continue boxing shadows A whole nation saying no may mean yes if you confuse the wording on the ballot and half answer on accident what part of includes translated It includes all nation states and continental Global village is an interesting It also brings up whether can have any meaning in a world of global plus nation from or means very little when the mobility and scale of the state is such for I can live miles from the land of my birth and still be in the same I consider myself an fauna and pronunciation Yeah you The old empires operated under some moreso better some less but all moreso than the modern state maybe even when we had the This degree of centralization of lawmaking and administration is an historical first de and schools with CC which is unprecedented again in scale and scope as days ago confirmed to me by a life long public school teacher who finally just got then authority rest with the consent of the but rather with the will of the ruling I suppose the centralization of power is kind of like trying to teach algebra to a class of junior high The material may be the but the teacher would be incapable of tailoring anything to any student and would be or to put it another all political authority is a populist the the But nothing can be more ruinous to welcome in your social circle than the least attempt to The system does not require your yes it It requires enough of an opinion that rule is we like our little lies but our big ones we will take to the grave and send others first early to theirs rather than let go our Honest why do hate the Common Is it the principle of the or the Its the same as the old rot on a grander scale and there are testing aspects that are Louis CK hates it He had a lot of stuff on Twitter about from a while What are the Orwellian testing Even many of the most classicly denominated schools adhere to the modern curricula with better material and a couple Even the renegades conform with unquestionable Since the primary common good is there has to be a certain level of implicit consent for the common good to be But authority comes from the common and from consent only insofar as it is a subordinate element in the common I agree with Andrew Strain on the incoherence of the transmission Pius X in Notre Charge explicitly rejects the strong version of the transmission Sillon places public authority primarily in the from whom it then flows into the government in such a that it continues to reside in the But Leo XIII absolutely condemned this doctrine in his Encyclical on political government in which he writers in great following in the footsteps of those who called themselves philosophers in the last declare that all power comes from the consequently those who exercise power in society do not exercise it from their own but from an authority delegated to them by the people and on the condition that it can be revoked by the will of the people from whom they hold Quite contrary is the sentiment of Catholics who hold that the right of government derives from God as its natural and necessary the Sillon holds that authority which first places in the people descends from but in such a to return from below whilst in the organization of the Church power descends from above But besides its being abnormal for the delegation of power to since it is in its nature to Leo XIII refuted in advance this attempt to reconcile Catholic Doctrine with the error of he is necessary to remark here that those who preside over the government of public affairs may in certain be chosen by the will and judgment of the multitude without repugnance or opposition to Catholic But whilst this choice marks out the it does not confer upon him the authority to it does not delegate the it designates the person who will be invested with For the if the people remain the holders of what becomes of A a there is no more law properly no more I quite get the distinction between and in the Leo XIII quote Nationalized database for regular computerized tests that tailorize questions according to answers of previous I read it as theory Nina that Scotland article is I loved this rivalry for long manifested itself through the competition between the two main football the Protestant Rangers and the Catholic until Rangers were hilariously relegated to the third division in as a result of financial That was such a great Sometimes miracles do The first line of the Wikipedia entry for a certain Football Football Club was a football club it kind of a cop out to say all authority comes from is it God wills it is it not Deus vult both designation theory and transmission theory agree authority comes from The disagreement is about how that everything comes from Case closed but if the or whatever can designate a then they can designate how is that different from delegating One difference is that on transmission theory revolutions are easier to Delegating implies the authority comes from the The authority to rule comes from That does not mean all rule is It is only authority to make just laws and promote the common good not its Not sure I understand the transmission theory not sure I see a difference Another difference is on the one account delegation is of the essence of political whereas on the other account designation is one of many ways by which the ruler can receive authority To designate is simply to point out who shall have the Designation can occur by by a by by the people in democracy or in popularly elected Unless i confuse it for the tacit consent of the governed but I dont think that is the And God Himself can designate as with David who was chosen by the people as It occurs in all regimes but is not a transmission of authority That comes from As I God gave the Israelites a king they one other And when that He gave them a king after His own He force his will upon us but gives us what we pray Sometimes you wish He so accomodating even if there were another way of lack of the consent of the governed makes for a de facto loss of wherever that authority may have come the people can always march the sovereign to the guillotine Not if merely Leo refutes this so if one were to march Louis XVI to the he still has Who ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common If the King look to the people grin and bear it until Funny thing about the common good it implies a deep or ultimate For it must be truly common to greatest good for the greatest number cut Put another way when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not shut up and pay your No one that the common good is the goal and this ought to trump the mere will of the or the Our own regime acknowledges and our politics are often about when majority rule goes But the question is how to arrange one or No one is saying that or And what of the many or those who write the comments Often the change of a corrupt regime comes from As Cyrus to So what about Cardinal change in Wall scrubbed and put in Not to Daneels will replace Burke at the It is dismaying Without wanting to it makes me want to put my head focus on my own spiritual and just try to ignore what goes on in Rome altogether far as that is possible for a practicing of It would be a disgusting travesty if he is not able to participate in the while Kasper and his views are paraded around like a I know little of Cardinal so I just read up what I could but I am not sure why you are critical of Is it the not ending the excommunication of Pius X bisohps to the biships denial of the jewish the desire to bring back to the or something There are better but a quick The Scandal Of Cardinal Kasper Cardinal Walter Kasper has become the man of the hour within the Roman Catholic With check it back to the what does that If a Catholic has divorced and remarried if they are ever allowed to return to receiving communion without the Here is a video of Burke on Creative Minority Cardinal Cardinal Kasper in Thank Thank Thank God we have Cardinals like yes the definition of marriage that the Church has always As long as the divorced spouse is the remarried person is barred from any one with mortal sin is barred from why add sacrilege to fornication Burke really get what Kasper is trying to Perhaps he should learn to speak German I It appears Kasper was making an aruement for on those that wish to return to the sacrements while remarried and in If we believe in the real and we believe in mortal there is really only one Unless one thinks communion is like a badge of honor that has only to do with oneself and not with God  He was making a pastoral claim not a claim about Canon if you separate the pastoral from the then asking for trouble I am constantly amazed that the number of people in the communion line exceeds the number of people in the confession line One is much easier to approach in the state of sin but with no merit in it Not just no but position is No he stopped defending the Catholic if he ever years You help people by encouraging them to damn themselves through sacrilegious There is no joy of the Eucharist in any of He talks of but that can only be true of incidental of and affirmation in their you are fine where you we exclude but God for all And we think sending the opposite message hear is How many bishops and even popes much go to hell for all before they learn that a shepherds hook is there to bring wayward sheep if necessary against their to the straight and and not to be dragged by the If Kasper prevails one of two things will teaching of marriage will further be and this will be seen as part and parcel of and we will be accessories to the sins of as we encourage sacrilegious Kasper is clear enough to He so such solutions are easy for What is with this opposition of pastoral to canon and the avoidance of the underlying theological basis of the pastoral law could be another name for canon oppose to two is Kasper is at the very least rejecting canon pastoral label is being used the way Averoists were alleged to use Oh the world is but theological it is The whole but this time as a cover to excuse sin and deny Church I am only pastorally counselling the aiding the condemnation of souls through but absurd must we mit welcherlei Gericht ihr werdet ihr gerichtet und mit welcherlei Maß ihr wird euch gemessen The Church has repeatedly judged that divorce and remarriage are grave sins and an impediment to receiving not judging the Catholic and the idea that a pastoral claim is not a theological claim is at best at total bs I take that In all cases total at worst grave sin for leading the faithful into worse am uncomfortable when proponents of controversial positions take a Scripture passage and invoke it Ed He said it better than By condoning their you become an accessory to their I am not saying we should bring back the sentence of excommunication et tolerati that was imposed on those through attempted attempted to marry a second person after abandoning common life with their let alone subject them to excommunication vitandi where they do get barred from even setting a foot inside of a Church and all except close relations and those with necessary civil business are barred from even saying a word to But should we not uphold the discipline of protecting the And to elide over their adulterous attempt at simultaneous because that is what it abandonment of common life with their actual by calling them is not helping It is like affirming the cancer of a patient who is How does that No my version of charity is a bit more in line with scripture coals and all And to claim that some hidden gnosis exists in Kasper because he spoke Do be charitable to these mocking marriage enter into false maybe realizing the grave evil they have are unwilling to renounce circumstances of their adulterous are real Pastoral solicitude may be for them to live under the same as brother and Anything else is And to counsel anything else is to take the place of Satan and place yourself on the path of Can we be I has no fear of the Lord but I for one That is the stakes not feelings about the but whether the Church brings that person to do that by ignoring the cancer of further case for the admission of remarried divorcees to the sacraments is argued in terms of Given that Jesus himself showed solidarity with the suffering and poured out his merciful love upon mercy is said to be a distinctive quality of true This is but it misses the mark when adopted as an argument in the field of sacramental The entire sacramental economy is a work of divine mercy and it cannot simply be swept aside by an appeal to the An objectively false appeal to mercy also runs the risk of trivializing the image of by implying that God cannot do other than The mystery of God includes not only his mercy but also his holiness and his If one were to suppress these characteristics of God and refuse to take sin ultimately it would not even be possible to bring mercy to Jesus encountered the adulteress with great but he said to her and do not sin mercy does not dispense us from following his commandments or the rules of the Rather it supplies us with the grace and strength needed to fulfil to pick ourselves up after a and to live life in its fullness according to the image of our heavenly Prefect of the CDF I do not like thinking pulling a of murdering one wife to marry another is more forgivable than divorce and But I guess it is what it Full text Archbishop Care of remarried divorcees must not be reduced to it be better to also provide the tools and resources to discover when annulment is possible for the first marriage and how to complete the Henry never did murder his true Let second But we sacreligious communions enough without more open false He sort of murdered Catherine of Aragon by and he straight up murdered Catherine who was his true since he married her well after Catherine of Aragon was Henry the I Henry the eighth I I I got married to the widow next been married seven times Catherine perhaps died of her penances but Professor Wiki relates that it was If you murder your I think you can contract another but maybe only if you conspired with the future to murder the former just he was only a tiny shade nicer to C of A than the ones he did and probably only because her uncle was Charles see what happens when people allowed to divorce and they behead their wives and start their own Look at the pastoral I just object to Since Henry VIII did not no divorcee It quite follow if you see what I C of A was raised to point out one I have a happy I love my I want to grow incredibly old with counts as public The best part about the church are the What is loosed on earth is loosed in There are no null annulments once Nothing to worry We just I imagine the position of someone divorced and I want But part of me feels like it is people that stopped practicing the faith for a period of did and now that they are coming expect that there is no problem with how they behaved in the intermediary you have your cake and eat it there are consequences for I anulled the anullment phone she I guess I am free to marry another Anullment declares something never no binding or loosing That Daniel Quinan high time for What is the problem Is this Cardinal actually saying that those who are in the state of mortal can receive is he saying that more needs to be done to help them come back to the I see no assuming sticking to Daniel Quinan read the revised I have another serious question for Which one was in the very center of the Garden of the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and that correct answer to that question who gives a That was a rather large now it is sadly almost Matthew I want to go to I would just like to point out how the crusades were a failure because the Christians ultimately failed to liberate the Holy a Caring about the demotion of Cardinal Burke or the opinions of Cardinal Kaspar makes you a It is possible that whether intentionally or is part of the problem in the TNET needs Office Space Jump to Conclusions To answer your I give a You honking great you pickled you Like drinking is an excuse to be an What does anyone a little less dismissive think about the possibility that they may have been one and the same quite ambiguous in which makes it Isak I have never thought about I know Augustine thinks they are Yes he wondering if always surprised few people seem to tackle the question of the trees and what the hell is going on with them and what their names even In the older they seem to speak authoritatively about it in often in deeply unsatisfying ways and the issue often gets far too quick and easy a What do you think it would mean for it to be the same  I like the simple what the hell is wrong with such What does it even And why a tree relating to It all seems very complicated to To paraphrase Woody how the hell should I know about the trees in the Garden of I know how the can opener not entirely I teased out the possibilities completely It would mean that one tree might have two aspects of its consumption that could not be simultaneously encountered by Adam the conferring of wisdom and the conferring of  And why a tree and a Ye shall know them by their Curses the tree that All I know is that like a wee but more I certainly think a bit of a Another interesting thing is that the properties of the tree of knowledge of good and evil are mirrored in explicit references to King and King personal They are both said to be able discern good and which seems to be an almost angelic Why was it forbidden for Adam to acquire those same powers of  It mean that the fruit would have been forbidden forever just until it was ripe maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic Why is knowledge a Why Why all those  Like the gift of It was to be And knowledge being associated with all this strike us as odd given the focus on contemplative and speculative as higher than in our In both case and the focus is not on it see you guys heading over the the fundamentalist TNET to discuss whether the trees in the Garden of Eden had  Why does man have to know good but why It the tree of knowledge in talking about And why does it appear that the serpent tells the truth about the tree of knowledge of good and evil while Yahweh does God says if they eat of they will surely The serpent says no you your eyes will be and you will be like knowing good and Then they eat the and they and Yahweh is all like they have become like knowing good and going on But they do die Is the problem that they take contemplative seeing and knowing too Aaron Gigliotti this is Years of Big Raymond Chandler in a bowling alley CHRISTOPHER ORR Yeah but Yahweh explicitly says they will die on the day they eat And they Unless we take to not be which might be the case I I read Loved the discussion of Coen Brothers references in What would it mean to take contemplative seeing and knowing too the goal to know God How much farther could one  Die as in mortal sin Isak Benedict take that to mean that NOW they are sure to die eating eventual death is set in what Augustine are you guys sure not stretching the meaning of the text too  And if they had then eaten from the Tree of their sentence of being in mortal sin would have been So putting them out and closing the garden was for their own And they going to die as mortal beings as such   nope  They could have entered eternal life without Ah an interesting I had not thought of The one about them then eating from the Tree of  Like Our Lady did asleep in the Augustine also said that to sing Eagles is to pray he kneel after the Agnus  The priest who gave our TOB class the other night said they even glowed in the Not sure of his source for  That would have made finding them And seeing when they had sinned even  Now young Skywalker you will die HD I just like saying that Adam literally tried to cover his ass after he favorite Gather Us In Gather Us In by Marty Haugen If you like this please show the artist appreciation by purchasing  have to ask him his He was a student of Dr Maybe Pater Edmund knows this Or is the problem how they came about the What would have happened if they had simply asked God for the Daniel I wonder about that As if the fruit itself could have been had at the but was not to be  Why We Use Secular Music During Listen to these audio Is there any My sense is that knowing good and means more something being the measure of what is good and  Off to sure when I return this topic will have morphed into teacher salaries or homily rankings or something of the Daniel you said above maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic Why is knowledge a Why Why all those Could you maybe elaborate on your own Why do you think that might help solve some I would love but I must be off to But when does ever mean the measure  Oh be sure to listen to the Little liturgy I posted Some things be Not to be aggressive at just conveying excitement in my digital Darn I will await your return Well if everyone is going to bed maybe I will engage myself in scintillating not IMPOSSIBLE about damn Good  not read that article before now and that is an absolutely horrifying  the esoteric truths of modern worship music laid is pleased You actually think that is one physical place and not a metaphysical state of Why not Why not the tree as both real tree in the middle of a garden and as a cosmic axis in the center of all So who let TENT theme of endless talking about TAC get diverted to the Thomism discussion I thought TENT had a monopoly on Just in case this was bothering anyone Charles V was Catherine of not her uncle When you have read and carefully listened to these you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love being made you a paradise of presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and flourishing being adorned with various For in this place the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been but it is not the tree of knowledge that it is disobedience that proves Nor truly are those words without significance which are how God from the beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of revealing through knowledge the way to and when those who were first formed did not use this they through the fraud of the stripped For neither can life exist without nor is knowledge secure without Wherefore both were planted close from The Epistle of Mathetes to It seems like the early early Church tradition separates the two Gregory of Nyssa argues that they are one tree memory John And you speak like someone from the ancient days of Time have Many epochs have All right this has been bugging why the T in The original acronym was simply it bad form to include the definite article in Anyway acronyms are why people just tag The Neverending Thread it take much TNET sounds more than Like that system that brings on the age of robots in The worst acronym of all is I just hate AND in an By that logic the USA should be called The it even destroys proper But TNET does have a ring to I have to has a ring to NET is infected with Just read TNET has a gnostic signifiance for the those over mostly Straussians i I meant the comment in support of TNET as our but Pater Edmund has a solid point about acronyms how about even better I was looking in Gregory of Nyssa this but I find the Do you remember what it is  in the Sermons on the Song of Songs I Found it of Nyssa anticipating Isak we hear that paradise was planted by God and that the tree of life is in the center of we seek to learn from the One who reveals the hidden mysteries of which plants is the Father both the husbandsman and the vine and how it is possible that there are two trees in the middle of one of salvation and the other of For the exact center as in the drawing of a circle has only one if another center is somehow placed beside or added to that first it is necessary that another circle be added for that center so that the former one is no longer in the what if circles in the Garden are  If it is elliptical there are two was only one does the text say that each tree is to be considered separately while both are in the And the which reveals that all of works are exceedingly implies that the deadly tree is different from How is this Unless a person contemplates the truth through what the text says here will be either inconsistent or a no dog in this So the are one tree considered under separate notions How can you have no dog in this Michael that you stole tNET from Those who I like dog fighting glad not the only one who thinks of SkyNet from Terminator when they hear But the tree be evil in itself nor permanently And why they both be in the center next to each The disobedience brought death spiritual I admit and deny The text of Genesis suggests to me that they are the LORD God the man has become like one of knowing good and and lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of and and live for The language here seems to imply that they have not yet eaten of the tree of life and that it is different from the tree of knowledge of good and God places an angel to guard the tree of It is my understanding that this is done to since if he ate of the tree of life while spiritually he would live forever in a state of death something like It seems analogous to abstaining from the Eucharist Fruit of the Tree of when in the state of mortal it certainly looks that way from this et Ecce Adam quasi unus ex nobis factus sciens bonum et nunc ergo ne forte mittat manum et sumat etiam de ligno et et vivat in As to knowledge of good and evil being a bad knowledge of evil detract from their freedom for That if we understand freedom as the ability to do then would not a knowledge of evil perhaps be unnecessary to a knowledge and accomplishment of the It would in a certain sense be a knowledge of that would which cannot be said to be necessary for knowledge of I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of the good just not as before eating the It could also be that the knowledge spoken of is an experiential They now have knowledge of good and evil because whereas before they only had experiential knowledge of they now have experiential knowledge of since to contradict the divine command was an But perhaps that is a voluntaristic reading of the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and Jody Haaf I think the Adam and Eve thing is a Kabbalistic Above Matthew Peterson ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common Put another way when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not Maybe we can look at some concrete The Anacletus II had the support of the majority of the with only belonging to the which elected Innocent The supression of the popular uprisings of in Bohemia and The Spanish Civil are you suggesting that church government operates on the same principles as state Otherwise I think the example is  Where do you people get your news about the Vatican from these Our priest said something weird at mass this morning about what Pope Francis is going to do marriages and I do hate rumours in the days of the And how is it even possible for consider communion for people who are in a situation first marriage is not Has anyone made sense of this I am shocked at the comments on the Catholic news As discussed it seem possible without a dramatic change in not just  And is that even change be  if we find this we are to the priest this  So what is the Pope actually some cardinal or bishop or Humanae Vitae showed that the pope can pull good out of evil I think probably the humanae Vitae Never an intention to change it but some clergy thought there was so we ended up in a  So what really ticks me off is having a priest tell me what the pope will How does he Where is he getting his need more the tree of knowledge of good and evil by its seem to provide practical knowledge about good and It is going to be strike that has become Stick to the daily The Faith of many will be what do you Your prophecy of doom is As befits prophecies of I had a tidal wave of daily bad the Vatican A ten year old at our monastery who just fell to his couples breaking a fire in our house and delinquent contractors on top of the daily craziness out of Rome et I AM NOT the only one saying And lots more i could  Who is feeding the Koolaid to the guy on the Thomism discussion Maybe we should cross post over here some of the women be allowed to are husbands allowed to physically discipline their the Thomism jody people be allowed to vote women are people not going to say it I still have no idea what talking Is it supposed to be the end times or The upcoming synod is going to cause great But a chastizement has begun No need for I have great hope for the upcoming Just to everyone on TNET thinks women should have the I assuming they think there should be a vote at strike I actually want to I have hope for the Church and in Our The synod not so I lean heavily towards the one vote per household how about not all women and not all men as a But I am not a fan of It is inherently unstable and lots of other Hoi polloi are not great We have that in my but the one who gets the vote The one vote per household model is actually prejudicial against family since it gives two married people the same vote as an unmarried person But I SAID I want to But the one vote per household position is And my husband get to vote because in case I gave the wrong impression I have no idea what the rest of this conversation has and I refuse to press but a lecturer at the ITI once proposed that votes be counted by household but weighted by the number of people including So you and Caleb would have one vote that counted for whereas I would have No one votes in my We are on indefinite That presupposes unity of views within the family that always  But I thought the idea of acknowledging that the vote of parents represents a larger portion of the populace than themselves was Hi I do like that Is there a better system for getting from TAC to LAX now than back in our the system of getting a ride from a Roadrunner Shuttle Roadrunner Shuttle Ha that was the His wife is a I though and only when not in But I loved being a Taking them to LAX over the rivers of and then coming back myself up the Stop at Net for a beer and a bite all by me Good I just changed the status above to protect but I guess almost comments too The judgers have already I hope you facebook friends with anyone who might be on a search comittee ever  In another thread on that FB Thomism someone just said in all seriousness that men should be able to corporeally punish their As Patrick Gardner Rice  What is this THomism going for a run before I read any good for but did you get my you seem to have messenger turned off in cas anyone is that person is NOT my brother Brian Discussion Group I hope this is not terribly there are Thomas Aquinas College students at my TAC is a liberal arts college in Santa See More on now discussion group not This is why we have nice  Some people have no idea what it means to be a Thomist For reals quote from that for corporal never hidden the but I go out of my way to be I brought it up to a close female friend not long and convinced her of my What kind of Slapping or Shades of Thomism  yikes voting is stupid I would refer anyone with a strong stomach for language to South Park season episode I remember voting for a candidate for national office and not feeling sick to my stomach I would say candidate for any only occasionally I know much about candidates for local and so know what I maintain that ignorance is the only way one may feel anything less than utter revulsion upon voting for any of the presidential candidates primaries or of my voting life blame voted for I always felt pretty good voting Republican in New because no one I voted for had the slightest hope of winning Except Chris that one Ah the other guy was a I voted for voting for Dukakis If voting for someone who makes you sick to your doing it Very is your profile picture a TNET   Voting is never about anything other than the best Practical politics is nothing other than answering the to or to So let it bother If you did think your candidate was wonderful and perfect then I would be people drink some people drink the wacky morning DJ says a Every time I vote my dad calls me up and asks who I voted for and then he yells at We need to get rid of the puritanical view of What can best be Then you hold your nose and I only vote for the See also Ivan Karamozov Say Joseph A lot of even that is hard to and more a question of guessing which future evil would be worst and hoping you just indirectly abet genocide in the Middle or So it has always Politics is the art the care of which is I think the best prudential decision is to join the All you wan to do is vote for whatever candidate you think is even if only marginally so There is nothing wrong with Still other than you are actively supporting but whatevs The Front From Monty The Life of Great for getting discussion board sniping back on I think that actively supporting argument is I think that video may have been posted here but who can another principle at work in if a politician needs your vote and needs to lie to get he will probably continue lying as long as he needs to be reelected by he will probably act politically as you want him When it comes to voting between set at I think voting for an evil man is Matthew Sed Cthulhu for Why Choose the Lesser Pinback Button receive one button measuring Not if less evil than the other Joel HF I prefer Michael an evil is This is why the party of Cthulhu guarantees you be disappointed by  a two party system is also evil Why DO we have a two party my but never understood the reason for it or it got set up that throw your vote still voting for As far as I can tell a historical accident my guess is an agreement between the rich white man and the rich white man to maintain rich whiteness We do the same thing in Canada with a though the two party system probably makes the agreement Rich creamy like the middle of a double stuffed oreo My view is that of the views on tNET are Matthew personal Especially the ones that contradict each nice use of the lowercase Joel Joel Because in a you get to vote for candidates and parties that clog up the system and promote discord and Winner take all elections as regards the are what dictate or create our mostly two party system some marginal third parties that sometimes help change the face of the two The two party system moderates extreme views and forces constantly changing large scale coalitions within the which are simply speaking coalitions that seek to win It helps make large scale republican or popular government possible in the sense that it forces very broad and big coalitions as I are always It pushes politics towards a If you had a Prime Minister instead of a President based on votes in you could have a system here not convinced that would be an what are we talking about these If people understood that parties are simply coalitions to get and that voting is simply about choosing the best and accepted that reality then we could start to get not sure my views are mainstream enough to really sit comfortably in any coalition in the USA these There is always a better and and closer and and politics is about persuading others and working prudently to move things towards what you see as the good insofar as it is The parties are like unreal created to win Most people sit comfortably within We need to stop thinking about them the way we as ideological choices through and through that OUGHT to each be based on clear political Most people still view them and voting in a way that prevents realistic engagement with American political The problem wit the United States party system in my opinion is that the two party system worked better as a general position or trend that you wanted the country as a whole to gravitate in this I think you can find more commonality between people But as the Federal government usurped the minutia of policy that should be in the hands local government it became harder to find that common ground between diverse peoples from different parts of the with the disclaimer on the original Matthew Peterson are you being held responsible for all views expressed a much too late attempt to ensure my diverse array of friends and colleagues understand probably far too you just need to join we vote with open windows So I have now seen the bodies of different incorruptible saints in Rome ALONE and yet I have never seen so many lifeless bodies as I see on I broke into the Thomist I am selling a new line of wife beaters for pretty funny how that ended up on the bash TAC do One infinite thread is enough for I reeeeealy hate especially the religiously justified only looked at No time to comment on But a few if you murder your spouse in order to marry you That is a diriment impediment to marriage Anyone who with a view to entering marriage with a certain person has brought about the death of that spouse or of own spouse invalidly attempts this Those who have brought about the death of a spouse by mutual physical or moral cooperation also invalidly attempt a marriage Women in Samantha Cohoe and Daniel I once too held the one vote per household Problem that disincentives especially if we for my spouse and I to be and get two than married and get only while the man is the head of the wife quoting scripture the whole political structure presumes relating to I think the desire to respect subsidiarity and family is mine But that is better down first and foremost in other especially Not to mention the legal If no unmarried persons can well maybe that would But if they are we using the femme femme covert distinction in In which case the say belongs to the husband as the one in charge of precisely as her father whereas a single a femme would have her own say incentive to So forget the easter states and stupid New York California has the common property Unlike the subjugated nature in the east our laws treated the spouses as one as is especially seen in ownership of property that gets firearm laws and who owns but it is every different than merely placing the woman under a But if if they who gets to punch the You say the as but then the practical difficulty the woman has incentive to be her own person and not marry Ending woman suffrage de be very beneficial but only in the same way that nuking New York and SF and LA would shift American in its but because those happen to be more blocs It normalizes violence against And therefore is Why would you want women to perform the worst activity of  This is only going to work if I tag all the people who were arguing over on that other but I seem to be friends with MAX WHEN DID YOU UNFRIEND ME YOU Max Summe and Evan Dunkel are not your what other THERE IS NO OTHER THREAD I refuse to be sucked into the Never Ending This shall be my only This thing has been going for over a month and the best thing on But I understand not following the  kind of like you can only put it off for so Eventually everyone joins Evan the more you deny the more you will be drawn into it your FB being is even now only existing within regardless of your acknowledgment of the In tNET became self Samantha Cohoe I tNET has always been self It let us become aware of it in I sort of want to but hardly call warfare the worst activity of tautological proof for the existence of the did you seriously mean anything you just said about denying women voting rights or any of the other crap about subjugation to her And you actually think I was serious that murder is more forgivable than As for firearms laws and what is your Clearly you are a gun do you not think that your wife is not a gun nut the women in my family are gun To a degree you could never Kenz actually argued against denying women voting albeit circuitously And because we definitely used to be I remember because you had a LOT of strong political this is friends well that ends I was just seeing stuff in my feed about your water carbonator the other so we must have been friends and I definitely unfriend you in the last couple of so it WAS Samantha Cohoe A long time I was on Then I was off Then I was on facebook Then I was off and now on So I never unfriended you Just you can see stuff in a feed that a mutual friend Depending on privacy So that proves If I were going to unfriend you it would be because I had a grudge against Caleb Cohoe for the way he used to keep winning sneakily at board games over the summer on But I unfriended him that seems I blame you if you unfriended me for Everyone hates Caleb for sneakily winning at board arguement equality ended when he said he was once against it clearly an argument for politics sucks throw them all out windows Abolish the My wife was accepted to but chose not to go and instead went to To work for congressman She has first hand political experience that I do not have and an understanding for hill politics beyond the average As for gun rights and proud to say she took me on our first date to the shooting range her sister worked and the femAles in her family own the nicest weapons I have ever Your chauvinism is shallow and name calling a little early for I think this is more a question of how to emphasize family in the political sphere not keep women pregnant and Is Weinerface Scrotchburger being mean to anyone else on their profile I knew it was a bad idea to accept his friend I did accept it a couple of years ago and he did the Linda Blair on Yes bad You have got to be Do you seriously think that the guillotining of the head of household just a modern You survived tNET friend And I feel like I never understand what you are talking Do you speak in   If Austen had been barefoot and pregnant we have to hold our tongues so I mean if she walked the we have these contraversies about domestic   Say it in English so I can bite your head and here come the domestiated rabbits to the i guess i am too obcure  You better not be calling me a domesticated That would be worse than making you worse than  ahhhhh not mad what are we mad at Josh Quoting Canon law or did I miss a gender and only reluctantly in favor of voting rights for I have zero tolerance for I would like to simply say that the last century has demonstratively made the case against ducks Oh nothing As for subjugation all over now what we understand it to mean not as clearly however it is part of marriage I have blocked said nothing about equality or I have no stomach to argue against someone who even arguing against but is chasing phantoms and burning Though I hope the fact that I dislike the as opposed to the common property approach via Spain from visigothic would indicate I think the husband his Obviously reverting to that old English law doctrine was something I thought was a My initial support for voting by household arose solely from the fact that the family is the primary unit of rather than the Now either we restrict voting to only family specifically in the context of or we all individuals who married a and families a But if the then the as a is diminished because whereas before marriage there were two now there is but And in either the question must be decides the Yes man and woman are as one through a moral That mean they And where there is but then a majority vote one must be the I mocked the idea of making the man the decider via the femme covert which treated woman as under her the way a minor female was under her Even Aristotle think those were the But even under a different legal we hold that is the head of the That is simply quoting So he would end having a vote and through marriage woman would lose the Or else women would never have the vote the unmarried in general were the fact that I saw this as a my argument was only about But it follow that I secretly harbor a belief that women have a These considerations and others forced me to abandon the family as a unit of society by making it the voting If that is then so be I guess everything is Ryan perhaps that was War can be done But even then it is one of those uglier things that are sometimes There are virtues associated with for And of insofar as we speak of those virtues in women are capable and should in fact aim at But war is still an even if virtuous men must engage in it from time to So maybe not the worst thing men but the worst among the sometimes and certain while they may be ordered properly to are certainly less desirable in though desirable in such as the ability to suspend Put it this the sort of dispositions desirable in a soldier are but even when ordered by virtue they remain less then say the meekness of I was mostly kidding with my above a gender a shameful secret I hide around I calling you a domesticated I was amazed at rapid response to my silly I want to resurrect But I am pissed that I forgot my thesis regarding I am more progressive than and in the I am fine if women wear Okay bad I am amenable to feminists in the context of modern culture on many but I also hold that we have indeed unnecessarily diminished Most people who say the latter I so I hesitate to say But war is ever present in some form or Even with Shoes are uncomfortable while pregnant and in the Well that and they tend to In I wish feminists put their money and focus where their mouth as modern culture and college campuses are indeed full of They rarely attack the most obvious or the roots causes of violence and injustice against They or the ankles The shoes Matthew I agree I have seen more of that nastiness in the last weeks than I could have If one wants to see actual subjugation of watch their position in the society that is a college how they are related and how they relate to men in that It becomes quite clear how unhealthy the air is for a woman who respects certainly very few of the men respect and the culture of those dorms do And in that well I fear for them at Put it this few Law and Order episodes on the I used to think of as think that yes and we have to be very very careful of victim insofar as where it is I actually agree with Matthew Peterson on systems being worse than two party Austria is But this would be much On Royal Government For the first time ever a edition of Reginald essay execute all READ von Equality or Liberty free at von Mises I agree with you but in most practical circumstancs monarchy would result in a step backwards East oh going on in the Middle East is conservatism at its most pure conserving the Monarchy is the best form its not even Von Luddhin even as a liberal saw a difference between the claim that is the best simply and is the best in such In most Western instituting a monarchy would be a step backwards because the people would not accept such a form of government and so it would lead to constant internal What does backwards mean is Islam backwards or really late What I mean is that if the US were to become a real kingdom in the next ten it would be a bloody  not the hatred is more of the name than the is why the Roman monarchy named the Emperors rather than and made every pretense of still being the Roman that Emperor is a bad we just have to get creative are the people backwards or the And I agree that it cant be late again I do encourage you to look at Anarchy doesnt work because it Once the democratic age monarchy will be restored and not the decrepit But I only see a massive change like that through an age of violence first democracy tyrrany always if the century proof but not an It will be short and it has Pater I have some good readings on the two party subject I have to dig out for my syllabus Would be interested to hear what you think of We Have you ever read long speech in the constitutional I agree with And And The President has more power than many a monarch opposed to a but the trade off is short term Then we are far from a More like a constitutional gov or even that drags towards the corrupt form But we are just as far much farther in terms of corrupt regime forms toward oligarchy than Representation itself is aristocratic by nature and corrupts into not But as Aristotle the best possible is to inculcate a neutralizing tension between oligarchy and which can help a few good citizens shoot for the mean and a true notion of justice in the midst of the messy affairs of I think any of the trinity I invoked thought monarchy simply speaking was the best possible form of You have have to think a bit and dig to see what sort of government we on paper and also in the It still would be called a government of the many by as the few must still get majority opinion on their side at some I always thought that the while clearly not the product of Thomistic does resemble in many ideal as described in the Summa But as to whether it is a good witch or a bad just say no one during their regardless of the underlying form or thinks the form they are under is the good Jefferson probably read and they still had vestiges of a scholastic both via the Scottish enlightenment guys and their Aristotle and via their Tudor English roots but This was a time in which you were accepted to school based on Euclid and Greek and Latin logic and rhetoric course started with categories like at TAC and he wrote against Jefferson mentions Aristotle along with Locke and But what saves it above all is old time religion and long The entire federal Constitution and and the entire Federalist movement is dedicated to countering democracy as a corrupt form with what amounts to That and people like push for a more mixed Otherwise how the hell could any republican or democratic form last this an amazing And Christians will be sad and look back at the moment longingly when  Wish I was in Pater neck of the woods for some real I think the government we got has often been better than the of even many of the founding particularly Jefferson and Madison the issue of religion Perhaps the familiarity with the classics helps explain that But frankly I think the mass of people were more and certainly more religious than most of the founding certainly had some it seems to me that Rome is the best comparative for our As to Plato and Aquinas endorsing ours as that requires a rather selective reading and a curious application but I am pretty rusty only in a certain respect I answer Two points are to be observed concerning the right ordering of rulers in a state or One is that all should take some share in the for this form of constitution ensures peace among the commends itself to and is most as stated in The other point is to be observed in respect of the kinds of or the different ways in which the constitutions are For whereas these differ in as the Philosopher states nevertheless the first place is held by the where the power of government is vested in and which signifies government by the where the power of government is vested in a the best form of government is in a state or where one is given the power to preside over while under him are others having governing and yet a government of this kind is shared by both because all are eligible to and because the rules are chosen by For this is the best form of being partly since there is one at the head of partly in so far as a number of persons are set in partly government by the in so far as the rulers can be chosen from the and the people have the right to choose their I say anything about those cats endorsing ours as I just said monarchy simpliciter supporters they were True about the religiosity of the people of which many intellectuals today are entirely New England laws were over a century old and devoted unabashedly to virtue by the time of the But even the most unorthodox of elites like Jefferson thought reason proved the existence of God and the virtues known by reason largely overlapped with the virtues of He was mad that priests taught superstition and faith when God could be proved via So you had a recognition even among most elite enlightenment types here that the ethics and virtue of religion and reason largely overlapped and that was a bad thing and needed serious  that needs a lot more fleshing I have no problem with what is said I DO have a problem saying that ours is the application of what Aquinas you are compelling me to do some rereading and new I may do maybe starting Has anyone read treatise on Mixed governments But they do need to be Medieval governance was often more mixed than We read On Kingship at I have read is a half a dozen times since Reginald introduction to On Kingship has now been I linked it but here it is Matthew I remember reading a good speech by Hamilton where he talks about how the president should be elected for life I remember at least for a long Rosman Bless their He made that speech out loud that the British form of gov at the was best in the world not a popular and then left the convention to pay bills back home with his law Not a landed wealthy But many think he did it on purpose to make proposals look palatable and more moderate by and I think they must be Shortly after this the convention moved in Ross Cunningham on Save the Queen and God Save the United Now When you tweet with a Twitter stores that You can switch location before each Tweet and always have the option to delete your location Learn more ROSS CUNNINGHAM and Franklin wanted two heads of state elected for one a la the Roman model vs It even that Quebec got a lot closer in You monarchists are if adorably gimme an gimme an gimme a gimme an gimme an for The Frogs Desiring a King an Fable Visit this site dedicated to providing Free Fables for kids including The Frogs Desiring a Free My authority for kingly rule is Monsieur Rip van It is much more compatable with sitting in the pipe unfrenetic and sipping Rip for see the problem I always have with They seem to assume that they are the aristocracy and not the dirt farmer who lives and dies in And no American has any cause to assume If because your ancestors were having a lousy time in the old country under the  your view of kingship is maimed by centuries of Jacobin Indeed the most tyrranical monarchs in past ages and there were some douzies come close to some modern totalitarian But just keep dreaming anarchy just how does that work which anarchy are you talking why we need balance of powers and the rule of nobody is advocating my view of kingship is maimed by years of reading rip was not Nor have I any such ambition Nor do I imagine it to be a panacea or any utopian dream is a failure from the get whether it be or representative democracy which is probably why Peterson keeps advocating the as the least awful of crapulent fixed Faculty seminar on the Crito this I plan on being I think the Crito is one of the most difficult of the It is deceptively Anyone have a definitive take on There are no definitive takes on  Michael you should know that Pater Edmund is perfectly just in assuming that he is in the House of Waldstein the free encyclopedia The House of Waldstein is a Czech noble originally from the old early mediaeval Bohemian clan Formerly a poor and less significant it gradually acquired large properties in the territory of the Crown of Bohemia in Bohemia and all nobility Your That is so Just like The Basque are one of the strangest groups of people on earth in terms of genetics and Strangest and most I know You should go to a cultural fesitval The Basque language derived from the mother I know my grandparents speak I have a dictionary at but I pronounce it  You would be cooler if you could speak I can say is the count to and man with loose which is idiomatic for My grandmother used to say it to us when we were kids and  it related This excerpt from Wikipedia basically argues that Basque is a stone aged Though geographically surrounded by Romance Basque is classified as a language It is the last remaining descendant of the languages of Western its prehistory may not be reconstructible by means of the comparative method except by applying it to differences between dialects within the Little is known of its origins but it is likely that an early form of the Basque language was present in Western Europe before the arrival of the languages to the Authors such as Miguel de Unamuno and Louis Lucien Bonaparte have noted that the words for and derive from the word for and have therefore concluded that the language dates to the Stone when those tools were made of others find this see the aizkora Latin inscriptions in Aquitania preserve a number of words with cognates in reconstructed for instance the personal names Nescato and Cison and gizon mean and respectively in modern This language is generally referred to as Aquitanian and is assumed to have been spoken in the area before the Roman conquests in the western Some authors even argue that the language moved westward during Late after the fall of into the northern part of Hispania in which Basque is spoken Roman neglect of this area allowed Aquitanian to survive while the Iberian and Tartessian languages became Through the long contact with Romance Basque adopted a sizable number of Romance Initially the source was later Gascon branch of in the in the southeast and Spanish in the It is classed as Or something like  That is so I learned something there are varying dialects within the Basque My grandfather is from which is supposed to be the most linguistically there was my giant Basque flag flying in the back in the Language isolate the free encyclopedia A language in the absolute is a natural language with no demonstrable genealogical relationship with other one that has not been demonstrated to descend from an ancestor common with any other Language isolates are in effect language families How Basque are be disappointed if less than  be disappointed so disappointing is Beitia at least a Basque People with Basque descent move their eyes differently when they try to remember shut not  it means it is also the most common Basque but it is usually mixed with other Lendman is full of the Beitia is Basque and fibs all the time and his telltale eye movements are totally normal Madinabeitia is I think most people look up and to the left when they try to remember something from I look the opposite they know me like you Basque Beitia Basque Basque biography and a description of research and I highly suggest those with small children teach them I lie to my Santa is not Santa ruins I hate such a Nobody wants to fight about Knowing nearly nothing about the TNET continues to remain weird and interesting Do you guys think that the arguments Socrates makes to Crito for why he should remain in prison and not try to escape are convincing What do you think he is up  Basque santa is a drunken evil giant that eats bad Much nicer than a bishop flying around depositing presents Olentzero the free encyclopedia Olentzero is a Basque Christmas According to Basque we never did Santa at my This thing should be getting old by but somehow it continues to delight it never gets old to me I agree that Santa ruins Christmas the American Santa invented by but there a way of having similar figures St Nicholas and that is not a Figurative speech and all As Michael Beitia would I have a link for Lying to or Edward Feser at the Battle of Solferino In an excellent series of blog posts Edward Feser I my kids are very good at distinguishing fable from And I agree that there is ever a time that children think dolls are as real as their brothers and Children are good at but they know when they are Those of us with children near the puberty line have to know what is appropriate to explain without but still at an age appropriate That is a difficult task if you tell your kids that Nicholas is coming to fill the shoes with what is figurative about anyone going to read about Olentzero I see how figuratively true any more than it is literally We never did I think we missed out on Though it was amusing when my aunt had to tell my year old brother not to ruin her year old last year of believing in Though I think the gifts left in our stockings may have given her a clue got a disc we had toothbrushes and a the hardest for us was having my second son not ruining it for other kids at takes after glad there are moms who fret about Santa in the That sounds but I mean it in the best St Nicolas is the occasion of parents filling So the figure is occasion for as in fills the And why is that more exciting than saying celebrate day by putting candy in your  The other kids never believed But I guess it was Why are figures of speech ever more It more exciting because a figure of more exciting because they believe something that which you intended them to believe I think if there is some distant sense in which what you are saying is but it the sense you intend to and it the sense in which it is then a lie As a child I never experienced it as a really I was pissed when I found out I was lied I know lots of former kids who felt lied and lots who really change the If you were lied you were whether you felt deceived or But the question is whether I was lied to or The fact that I never experienced it as a lie is not proof but it is Some parents take it way to We always talked about the toothfairy but always knew it was just mom and I agree with leprechons are but bc they are I think intending to deceive your child is taking it too If telling a and everybody kinda knows a My eldest is pretty literal He would want to pin us down on the I agree on My parents never tried to deceive us about St what did they I like that no one is even trying to defend Santa the worst They told a story and everyone kind knew it was a no wonder you feel lied to then Daniel Frederick Benedict Grimm what do you Pater way back in the infancy of TNET you mentioned being possibly amenable to elevating the status of The Great Gatsby to Great simply not had time to formulate a small defense of the work as such until so at risk of derailing the here are some somewhat formed thoughts about Let me state up front that my usual response when I hear someone refer to a character as a or a trial as is to roll my Often this is an example of lazy since any story at all about a heroic character or a personal sacrifice will draw automatic comparisons to the greatest story ever and as does not usually help us truly understand the character being thus compared to That I think this may be one of the cases where it is in fact worthwhile to make such a In Life You Save May Be Your Flannery describes the figure of Shiftlet ends up as another one of her bringers of to standing at the end of the driveway as forming crooked I believe that in a similar Fitzgerald intended to portray Gatsby as a sort of Here follow a few examples of The language used to describe the life and death of Gatsby is Gatsby is referred to explicitly as a Son of but a The moment he truly changes from Gatz to Gatsby is when he kisses Daisy for the first and exact phrasing is incarnation was After the that ends the when the bodies of Wilson and Gatsby are the exact phrasing Fitzgerald uses parallels the former holocaust was He is using holocaust here in the sense of Consider the facts leading up to and including He decides to use his pool for the first time all and blows up an air mattress to float He picks it up and bears it to the pool on his He stumbles under its weight at one and his chauffeur offers to lend him a and Gatsby merely shakes his head in refusal and moves on towards the I think this is an obvious slanted reference to Simon helping Furthermore Christ dies on a wooden Gatsby dies on an air a and frankly version of It is common and easy to claim that Fitzgerald was writing his masterpiece MERELY as a critique of the current wealthy more than Christ died to save Gatsby died because he lied to protect It is easy to say that Daisy is an object unworthy of It is harder to say that we are like unworthy of a love like unworthy of a love like Obviously Gatsby is not a perfect But just as one could argue cosmically that Christ throws Himself away for something not worth but that He nevertheless loves one could argue that in a slanted way Fitzgerald was writing not about a single wealthy culture of a single but of humanity in by showing a great man like Gatsby throwing himself away for a wretch like Daisy that he nevertheless loves We like to identify with we like to identify with Nick we should be identifying ourselves with I do not believe that the title of the book is These thoughts are messy and partially so I would be glad to modify clarify or retract them if there is What does TNET been ages since we talked about the bell read your Gatsby thing NOOOOOOOO Okay pray for us good luck finding it tomorrow  What makes Gatsby good at making and he loves And he throws a good Well exactly saying ironically his love for Daisy that makes him Well that and his personal which is admittedly not always entirely possible that seeing in the novel what I want to Nevertheless I think my evidence needs to be not convinced about the personal but I like the rest of your All I really need to hold my tongue just because I finish certain  Yeah as far as I can see there are two possible grounds on which to criticize the method by which he obtained his wealth was illegal Although we objectively consider Prohibition unreasonable and the consumption of alcohol his involvement in the criminal world is still apparently he respect the lawful marriage of Daisy and Going along with my Daisy wedded to Tom is humanity wedded to the and Gatsby seeking to take Daisy from him is Christ seeking to free humanity from the Bear in mind that I am not claiming this to be the or point of the primarily a fantastic about people as real as can be secondarily a story of modern cosmic Not sure I understand your Why you like the cosmic Definition Meaning merely that death bears universal You are getting me to consider reading TGG That is truly my only I hope I break TNET with that long bit of Gatsby tNET is not but sleeping I hate to be a but it has been decided that the initial in tNET is that is Must have missed the memo I think I like that our favorite objected to having a others preferred the sound of You so you get a polling hours are unlike the trolling which are I think it mirrors the iPhone and iPad which bugs me for some reason Pater has a pet peeve about acronyms but especially acronymizing the definite Causes him to cause all kinds of problems at the monastery i late again it may mirror iPhone et but it is better than typing out The Neverending Thread  sounds like a football no polling hours are While nitpicking about neverending is one TNT is such an explosive it is but I spell Toluene People who tell their kids that there is no Santa Claus and dislike The Great Gatsby are greatest If you felt by you parents when you found out there was no might I suggest that there are other issues at play that a professional might help you work Oh worked through those And we tell the kids that there was no we just the Santa I should definitely see a not gonna deny and the oldest of My dad STILL admit that there is no and We DO and the best thing your dad is a he sounds we finally found a Good How do false beliefs about an old fat guy distributing presents increase wonder at the I also feel lied to about global they tell me that little slave kids made my I think cool that I called dad a since he called us greatest but totally apologize if you Feil I am mildly think a nuanced and find the history of the Father Christmas tradition pretty but unfortunately post much about it because I have to get ready for my rehearsal Maybe we can revisit it NOW tNET never getting You be talking about I tell my boys that Sinterklaas is real and so is Zwarte See Translation Especially Zwarte because if bad get taken back to and everyone knows that is pretty close to Kinda but it may be one of the last Zwarte Piet songs for a Zwarte Pieten Stijl Nederlandse Gangnam Style Like us on Feil Cecelia is which seems pretty but is still probably too young to get Best wishes to relieved not that would make me feel Olentzero would eat Zwarte Piet tNET comes from who long predate I believe John called you a last You should fight domestiated i TNET ALWAYS revisits if you it never revisits because it never I like a disciple of the school of We have tradition on our and I have a fear of rabbits ever since I saw that Monty Python horror tHE dOG rETURNS tO iTS vOMIT to speak of polling hours is to make TNET a which I think we can all agree is Only top ten commenters get a so an FKATNET or Clearly none of us have any wealth to speak Unless not in the top Edward Langley the tNET straight up make any I think we should appoint positions for the top ten Olentzero looks like he drank everything in But that would make PereScott something like Nah not based on but So the I want him cleaning out my Back in ten I want him cleaning out my toilets in bathrooms well stocked with toilet paper made of pages from that stupid bestiary of You have a very detailed idea of this what ever happened to bearing his that Still Did you read his I did Was it I would like to be Michael can be Tribune of the Isak can be poet Matthew Peterson should be and probably also Being is ham fisted humorlessness masquerading as Samantha it does nothing to reinforce the mystery of the So So a big distraction from the actual importance of Must every waking moment of Christmas be spent discussing the Do you ONLY talk about the incarnation at a Christmas or do you What about tree Is that too big of a Santa is a fun thing that keeps kids entertained during Objecting to it is reactionary and The data must be delayed I like to do all manner of festive things that celebrate including tree trimming and parties and just part of the I see Santa that To it seems to truly make Christmas about something Plus the lying I guess Ed should be the since he is keeper of the not fooling When we go camping I tell my kids to look for Am I a This strained rejection of fantasy and play smells slightly of But this thread is made up of alumni of an institution that employs to ferret out the sinful behavior of their so I guess not I think probably a I like fantasy and a big difference between fantasy and play and legitimately trying to deceive I admit Santa can be done in an innocuous way probably fun for some But often just straight I wish I had carried around a trained ferret with me when I was a That would have been I would have used it like a drug sniffing dog to sinful They would all have feared me and my His name would be that ferret Morgan I Branch back to the dorm yet and past I note that no one has objected to my nomination of myself as Consul of so just going to call You have said At least prefects are not sneaky like at other Or not as I know LOTS of parents that do insist on the Santa who would be less offended if you told their kid you believe in about I can I believe in God or Jesus to children with less risk of an angry parent than disbelieving in If one does the Santa then at least make it actual have no Somebody can be my coconsul if they speak up I nominate Michael Beitia No Tribune of the Make my kid doubt You evil Place doubt in their mind about Christ or no big you want your kids living in a bubble now do That whole spy routine that crops up now and again that Aaron Gigliotti is referring to is Institutions are better off paying close attention to helping students who exhibit signs they need curb a lot of shenanigans that But the tattle tale stuff is infrequent and comes and goes in cycles or at least it used I just finished being a prefect and there was not any nor really any to speak I am That means my Coconsul is Pompey and we will later fight a great which I will Who wants to be you can be No prefect ferreted out sinful behavior while I was Heck I was suite mates with a and kept a whole stock of bottles visible as soon as you opened the bathroom mostly In all the one prefect that tried to be too nosy had a massive backlash I get stuck in traffic driving home from work and all doled out the honors without my I am ashamed of all of I made you Tribune of the Be grateful The nice thing about being a prefect is that you have to waste time at Mass craning your neck to see sitting out Matthew I have heard really creepy stories about not even sure how we ended up using the Roman that probably makes you Marc by the But I cannot speak for every prefect especially the despite having slept in every dorm Therese was the Because the best and the Aaron has heard how Since Caesar made Marc Anthony a Tribune of the So have to avenge me Michael Peterson keeping an aquatic you know for personal inside city that legal neither perhaps true one during my time would have done but think of it as the Most prefects are just normal Well the prefect I roomed with never gave out an And she like the thought of me coming through our window and having to give me one either I got tackled by two prefects half drunk trying to sneak into the dorm at in the After the wrestling we realized we were all locked While there are occasionally to say that the school hires them to ferret out sinners or do anything of the kind is I like where this is The prefects were pretty ok when I was I except about the dress some people are just and some jerks get authority Nobody wants to be This can be the early We have to turn on each other for a what I object to is you automatically treating me like an be proconsul of my own tNET will just have to conquer your not if Very And you get By exploiting the By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our before I scandalize anyone two of the female dorms were unoccupied and I was exhausted and on break while working in by The other well all the occupants were either working or out at the moment and I was working in that and I wow if I took a nap I could get reactions from people by saying I had slept in all the I go to my own thread and dominate everyone Bwahahahahahaa As long as you remain under the rule of tNET and send regular tribute strange women in ponds swords is no basis for a system of Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the not from some farcical aquatic So what do they want t prefects to Now we see the violence inherent in the I have no Mostly give me shit about my foul I think  Prefects are glorified I would take the hours got one all my attempts to goad over the massive fines at other schools I got I just never did The used to smoke cigarettes out back with me instead Maybe the top twenty commenters can be Roman and the rest of you are conquered  I note that no one seems to find this Roman thing as fun as I I guess because I already called at USC if you lock yourself out of your room the Oh its your that is a clumsy this is your fine for unlocking your your guest lost his pass and wants his ID Heck we even fine you that much if you smoked in the dorm that was the only fine I And Michael you let your poor children enjoy Kris there are rules that need to be upheld if the community is going to maintain its and better if they come from the student not saying I loved or agreed with all the rules as a but as a whole they are very beneficial to the I feel like a failure by graduating without an hour or encounter with a My kids and I enjoy a lot of lots of fantastical seen every episode of Who from the first to the fifth doctor read Tolkien aloud we even made a totem pole Michael Beitia found picture those SC fines are I should add that that assumes good and moderate enforcement of the easy to take to stupid but when enforced moderately and common sensically weird or I realize that trying to defend the rules probably makes you think that I was one of those uptight but that the I tried my best to be as chill as possible while actually doing the job I was being paid to Most of the prefects I knew were the Since Daniel Lendman is probably and he gets to be Pompeius As the youngest TNET does that make me Sounds That means you and Beitia get to rule when I am That means I get a glorious year reign and to live to a ripe old Pater Edmund can be I vote we proscribe the rostrum needs some I have to go brush up on my Latin skills for a proficiency exam Isak could be Catullus or FKATNET delenda Mike pretty sure I was in the room you tapped on trying to get in that Was particularly bad timing since both the prefects were in there at the I thought it was you that tackled Pierre hit me Curphey It was and pretty sure you were in the room when I tapped on the cause I was flying Yup that was I remember how eyes lit up that he was gonna catch hahahah except he was in my room while we were drinking a mine was the designated smoking then all three of us had to knock on window to get let back in because neither of them had their keys Isak is definitely more Catullus than I mean that as a Catullus is the better and dirtier That is certainly was a refrain of the last poem I read of  really know how to make a gal feel special By the way of course the school itself never hires students to ferret out to use the accepted colloquialism certain individual administrators certainly have made use of them that Did you just A certain Dean when I was there did refer to himself as Rudy and his prefect team as the but to be both ass deans while I was there hated its on my feed agai how did this get on my feed blame Sam Rocha be the Drew let tNET feed YOU i have no idea happening and frankly i am not reading comments to find Nothing is Everything is There really in tNET exactly because time a thing wise man your your answer for Tattoo it on your I also know firsthand of couples who were followed around by prefects who were explicitly assigned to keep an eye on This happened to me too except I was walking around holding Max hand  Sam Rocha has been reduced to providing comedic He wants in to the puppet government Find him a position he is a I love the Lebowski FWIW You really only need to read But if you are I recommend comment  If you read every it makes If you read every it is kind of Catullus is too filthy for me to quote really nowhere near as bad as he   hyuk Cover your butt Bethea Scott is Scott can kiss my  Catullus all that just the poem I mentioned number in the collected works I It really but flipping to it I skimmed the ones to are Catullus is the absolute Investigate with much discretion Oh that had forgotten about that had bought the book as a gift for a friend studying believe that was the poem that made me keep the book rather than give it to the first line mentions the act of know it is Though it is an interesting way to respond to criticism about being too take it up another notch nam castum esse decet pium poetam versiculos nihil necesse est Anyone have advice on how to turn my dissertation into a The Meaning of the Public Good in the Rhetoric of Ratification The dissertation examines the meaning of the public MATTHEW PETERSON  I can only advise you to harness the power Change the name to something key to unlocking through the new in six easy then drop the Cut out half the chapters and pay TACers bucks each or buy each a forty and have them write reviews on Amazon related to the Take a picture of a Coulter look alike for the cheap write a review for but all of my reviews contain interesting to note the contrast between decet and necesse est Catullus denying the charge or I should say claiming to be Do you think he is right to notch it Is it just feigned outrage by I did just I was only a prefect two years have been under a different Dean than but that certainly have happened in the time I was We intentionally tried to shake off the idea that we were Obviously I speak to times before I was There have always been overzealous but my experience is that they are few and taint the whole That I definitely see with the Dean on hard for me to speak for the side of because from what I could tell being a female prefect is a whole different I want to see Matthew I just read your dissertation up to the if our understanding of political philosophy does not fit that of the founding we ought of to immediately start sifting their words through our own philosophical framework and begin speaking of tensions and One must first assume they had a coherent political philosophy to some degree and seek to uncover giving them the benefit of a This rule of interpretation is especially apt given the continuing success of what they In the final they were doers rather than Their magnum opus was an actual government that still exists today rather than abstract works of political Their thoughts by their own were formed by practice more than To a great extent they were not writing treatises in the vein of Politics but persuasive texts aimed at erecting a particular regime for a particular people in a particular time and To read the founders one must assume they came to their thoughts on government from the induction of experience just as much as more far more their reading of Given this fact and the obvious success of the regime they established that we the living it is somewhat not to mention to accuse them of holding contradictions if their thought does not fit into our theoretical conceptual We owe them a fair hearing given unlike most political they actually created a successful government that has managed to stay intact for over two While I wholeheartedly agree with your proposed of I cannot agree that we should begin by acknowledging the of the regime the Founders unless you mean by the simple fact that the government they created has remained intact for over two It seems especially given your use of the charged word that you mean more by than mere existence in If is there not a begging of the question here when one begins with the assumption that the regime one is proposing to examine is especially if the word bears within it a judgment about the good of I am by of the way Plato begins the Republic by having Socrates state that procession of the native inhabitants was but the one the Thracians conducted was no less fitting a These words seem intended to assure us that Socrates is willing to hold his own regime up to the light of reason and judge it the sine qua non of any genuine Would it be if a critic suggested that your examination of the meaning of the key term was unduly influenced by your evident In other did you find what you wanted to find in those crucial words because piety required you to find For what I would suggest when you publish your dissertation that you not leave yourself open to this After someone who is not convinced that the regime has been a success the very notion of success is severely might not give your analysis a fair Thank All I have time Right  Slow You guys are missing your Only comments from making  Things you should never say on social sooo tired Such a longggg week Sooo busy right now  I am having a hard time going to bed with this job really  Where are the they getting up by Jason Van Boom  What is going on over on the Thomism Discussion I need to go wash my Jeffrey read the whole as they as imperfect as it There is something to even if not the only especially when to comes to a regime form that is usually NOT Granted that is no complete argument for  Thoughts on the new rumoured Associated Press learns Bishop Blase Cupich of Spokane will be the next Chicago And to Jeffrey Bond obviously hopefully obviously I do not thing you are quote right about very notion of even if I think we are in a very bad way at   Not so many Aristotle  But I was impressed to find Aristotle on a scientist valentine  I most moderns would not classify him as a you   we usually find that we need to vacuum the grass before cutting in It helps it look more  Sam Rocha  Just  Or it is like time It is  When I I   For   more and I can go to   Good Santa Michael Beitia Werner Herzog Reads Twas The Night Before Christmas German director of Caves Of Forgotten Isak I like your Gatsby But how would you respond to the redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to gave no account had no feeling about or knowledge the emotional relations between Gatsby and was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his his and putting in overtime at the symbol Gatsby takes place over a single three three three chapters with a car accident and also Inside that almost everything in sight serves a symbolic the automobiles and ash the upright Midwest and poisonous the white dresses and decadent Heavy heavy zero Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy Gatsby has been compared to typically to suggest a mythical quality to characters or a moral significance to his But moral significance requires moral or The Great Gatsby offers none of In it offers the As for I love fables and fairy but a great novel should be a Something more like Jane shhhh hunting Pater hits on a great There are only a few books I You have to tell the story and Austen is a very good story is just something wrong with world and I think she sees I do a fourth round of Here are the things I look for in a in nuanced and interesting lives of characters an authorly perspective that reflects some truth good plotting effective descriptive writing is actually not something I look for in a but I sometimes enjoy it if it is Isak makes a good case that Gatsby does but that make it and Austen has the first A great poet has to do everything well but plot and choice thereof is TGG is not in league But Rip van Winkle a great I guess say Gatsby also has and but is pretty weak on and I read a lot of But a couple I liked recently were OBrians and and of the Great I do have a couple on my to read list from this thread Many of the so called classics of the century are meh or total fail which rants lead the I read In Sunlight and In Shadow and it was soooooo It was because he came very highly But I have been meaning to read Strangers and Sojourners for a started Lucky Jim because of Joe recommendation on The Neverending and did you read Am I crazy or was it just Helprin is hit or miss Soldier is his best and is pretty The writing was SO the dialogue was completely everyone talked in exactly the same The characters the plot was I hated the last chapter of Strangers but the rest of the story is a must read Beautiful story I like And on the there were quotes from the New Yorker and calling Helprin the next LIS Helprin is hit or Soldier is the only must Good great Not as flowery and perhaps more reflective of the personal experience but it has been several Sojourners might be better Sojourners has gone on my I have an actual with now several recommendations from Mark Sunlight and in The couple in Mark new novel fall madly in love and seem destined to live happily ever but MICHIKO KAKUTANI If anyone learns anything from let it be that In Sunlight and in Shadow was a terrible I am actually glad to see the Helprin He gets a bit I finish Winters heard his other stuff is but not sure I can bring myself to give him another LIS i have no doubt Soldier is his best the plot But I would still take Strangers and I have never read anything like it and i suspect you will really like I found Soldier of the Great War unsatisfying and frustrating though it had moments of interesting Later I read a Helprin interview where he said that anyone who cared about World War One or Italian history would probably hate the book because he felt bound by what and I felt somewhat more justified in disliking a book many friends I read it years Perhaps i would change my opinion on another Some think it is the The top of my feed every time I log Never have I seen so epic a Never has there been so epic a The Neverending Thread contains an interesting Met him and observed him at close range a few Soldier is worth reading if only to understand why it is a favorite of some i think dislike says something as well its a Kind of like Atlas Shrugged popularity speaks in case a wasteland of dead I cannot comprehend her popularity there is better writing in short critique than in the entire fountain of shallow the Brendan relentless screeching that is the corpus of nails on a chalkboard is melodious by and if you really want to know what i think of pm I therefore I Someone else has probably already said but screw Shusaka Endo Silence before Scorcese finally makes his movie Read Kazuo The Remains of the Day was not like the Read Mo particularly this soon to be translated book called Frog about an abortionist in China who just up and stops one Sounds like very interesting As for try Tale or Freddy and Fredericka and if they your kind of drop Read some of these wonderful new translations of classics that are some of the great works of civilization that we are completely ignorant Dream of the Red Chamber or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms or read Silence but a friend wrote a screenplay based on it cheerful stuff better than why you like Father I read that a couple years ago over I loved I also love which I think the most promising and thought provoking of the available works of our But I do not wish to scandalize Does anyone know if the Aquinas Review can be found I seem to recall hearing of a plan to digitize but not sure if that has I hated apocolypse Both were signs of what is wrong as much as but in different ways shallow which Strangers and Sojourners is Apocolyptic My memory is too poor to expand but that was my impression and the heroes in both left a bad taste in my Hated Just disliked In both the good guys were as much the problem causing the where we are Benson freaked me out with his faux heroes and weird Catholic Elija Brown meets antichrist or maybe its a clerical with the unconsumated love affair to Other things wrong with it I really enjoyed The novels of Iris I found The Sandcastle and A Severed Head both to be gripping and Have u read Strangers and  I did not like it as The only truly brilliant Catholic Apocalypse is A Canticle for Leibowitz A little weird at the But I liked it very Very well I am so convinced that taste in novels reveals a lot about And those tastes change over Not saying anything negative about The Green Knight by Iris Murdoch is also I think John just insulted I have on the list unlike my list is unfortunately My favorite novel happens to coincide Daniel with the objectively best novel ever Don of my being well Strangers had a profound impact on me when i read Changed forever the way i view a few And there are a few beautiful scenes in Rip van Winkle did That sort of thing weighs into how one views a particular work at a particular Don Quixote is on my to read I just never get around to and it help not having a That and I rarely spend more than a day reading a Cervantes deserves a slower Don Quixote is one of the great novels like it contains so many wonderful stories up there with the Kitāb alf laylah and I prefer surreality to So you read what is a good You guys are Don Quixote is not a And Silence is the most painful book ever THE ONLY novel worth All others being The last part of Canticle for Liebowitz gave it a run for its though What I think is fascinating about Don Quixote is the stated desire to get past unrealistic and stories of and get to stories and then the reality turns out to be more fascinating than any But if you think not a how would you classify a loooooong string of loosely held recommended Fair enough why I compared it to the for Don Quixote I like the Penguin Not sure of the translator  even Umberto Eco can be really surreal But those are the Like I think a novel needs more unity than Don Quixote a Chaucer has What about Did that have enough Don Quixote would be better adapted to a than a feature length Discuss Obviously Does anyone think the Odyssey is a Only if it were a miniseries like the original Brideshead but we give it a We cal it same with Chaucer Canterbury none of those have the right sort of unity for a novel not saying they have no just not the right Totally disagree about You just start in the there are stories nested within stories there The raises the question what would be the first novel in the European not being Chaucer lacks the unicity whereby one thing has the oneness of a Presuming we accept as a I am All must accept my criterion for the definition of the Still believe you guys let me be The unity of Chaucer is the the context of the tales and allegory for our a bunch of tales and allegories with a common enough unity for a great not a though No the stories are more or less diversions from our All the stories are judged in the light of our true That too is why some stories appeal to Others as we follow the narrow path or as we wendin just making stuff up that sounds right to Nice of you guys to play though Don Quixote de la Mancha is typically considered to be the first European about a man inspired by the romances he sets out to do good deeds in an evil But I do think that any category that contains Don Quixote Pride and Prejudice needs some  Sort But there are and many other things that seem to have their own purpose within Don Quixote If there is it unity of the  You do know what happened to Caesar And after a it even really seem to be about Don Quixote at least not  I loved Fr Elijah but hated Strangers and It creeped me Just too fear I believe Ceasar reigns for a hundred years of beloved by Am I remembering Chaucer is actually critiquing all novels before the  Beware of Caesar Joel is my good so he should probably be that loyal friend of Our Caesar spell her own Time to get out the stabby stab stabbers I think i have to die delenda Austen Dido the principle of emasculation that eventually gives rise to the new homo delenda Caesar deserves to be spelled  and you should be Not  We have to keep our justice Like I would prefer to be stabbed than flogged a very uncaesarly You take correction too The historical record is  snort now the Caesar we delenda is crossing the rubicon finally admitting that Austen that No that would be capitulation to the evil demands of Cato Caesar will not be deprived of his Egyptian But I suspect Caesar was master in that Don is not tied The novel makes several points within its sidetracks and little but they are all subordinate as a to the main story of Don If Samantha is then naming a Cleopatra could make things get weird stick with Tribune of thanks Austen Austen is in no way like except that they are both Cleopatra was only awesome because she was the last of the Ptolemies and she was pretty good at getting powerful men on her Joel Cleopatra Austen Stop Joel is  Austen is a Victorian That is Dido Because she was a Because she was And she had to be pretty and the inheritor of who want a horde of slaves to calculate in base world revolved around world revolved around world revolves around tea and the equant I have no idea what Cato Ruplinger thinks Austen and Cleopatra have in common other than that they are women notable to In both the private surplant the public Public good is absent in Austen God is I cant blame Austen God is not dead in Read I think you can argue that Cleopatra put her own good over that of her if what anymore than any of the other rulers of the Persuation it will And I still know what you mean when you say the public good is absent in What is an example of a novel that exemplifies the public good over the in your And that is exactly what Dido did God Dead in An Examination of Nietzschean England and the Will to It is the world Austen In which the private is magnified but I think Virgil depicts it best and for him it was only part of that Do you mean the private as opposed to the My good before the common good or even making my good the end of political these simpletons want a single thing most of that nobody should hurt Thus they try to please and gratify is even if it be called Pretty sure Nietzsche was talking about Christians thus not just Austen but all of clearly an Austen digging through more be But it is also a narrow minded private And I see no God in Austen but will read Persuasion again next fleas is a straussian code for bunnies You guys are so You keep saying stuff that makes me think you even read I keep trying to pin you down on what exactly you but to no YOU say the most astounding Like praise of I can think of dozens of amazing But not I think I evaded any Carthage was overly consumed with private affairs albeit material wealth by trade like its mother city and for which they also sacrificed their own You evade by Your criticisms are never clear enough to I say Cleopatra was a great I just said she was had me laughing I do keep them in the But they could still be I get into the specifics for several Like that you really remember the they all want English morality to be proved right because this serves humanity or general or happiness of the greatest the happiness of With all their powers they want to prove to themselves that the striving for English happiness I mean for comfort and fashion at best a seat in is at the same time also the right way to indeed that whatever virtue has existed in the world so far must have consisted in such sounds like something Austen would say about her sounds like what the rest of us say about and always happy to dig up Nietzsche I am very familiar with P and The others are But there are other I am tossing out my general I will take you up on Persuasion just a weird even if I try to make it specific enough to So people in P and P prioritize their private good over the common some of them but not And if all saying is that many of the characters pursue their own then so But ooouuch deleta est world One could live in of good there but ONLY by fighting that but true of the whole But Austen glamorizes the Because Darcy is rich and that turn out to be a She reinforces it and romanticizes it and makes a virtue of  noble deed is base in motive and Its a cheap cover up that he can it that world and the ends that move it did I mention I like Did that come we have the same problems in that area of Anyone besides me love a good Umberto Eco Pendulum is Filled with read Realty is surreal Give me earthy real and celestial I have all of his and quite a bit of his Chaucer and Dante are Russian literature everything else you object to Darcy helping to save reputation because he does it for It a cheap cover only chance not to be not a great but the best possible outcome for the family at that all Russian The russians are a bit off Shakespeare meh Donne Shakespeare nothing wrong with being It makes great John   no sublunary is a craptastic line from a craptastic poem BUT that is the whole world and all that is in that The world and man is much bigger than Reputation is a puff of High sounding one minute and gone the I wont get my hose all tied in knots for easy to say when entire social and economic future depend on publish or Russians crazy as was being also why the fiction is the best Show me deare thy so bright and is it which on the other shore Goes richly or which and tore Laments and mournes in Germany and Sleepes she a then peepes up one Is she selfe truth and now now Doth and did and shall she evermore On on or on no hill not Dwells she with or like adventuring knights First travaile we to seek and then make Betray kind husband thy spouse to our And let myne amorous soule court thy mild Who is most and pleasing to then When she is and open to most Samantha is our new pb bard QUIET YOU I resist saying is the or what have you when the language is not so I have indoor I live in the modern world and want things in modern Russian your not problem is that and not that good of a You just admitted that you tell if any because you are incapable of appreciating anything not NOT what I can you rap to be not what you said I I WANT THINGS IN MODERN ENGLISH not that I appreciate anything otherwise I think Dante and Chaucer best and dont hesitate to The time now is out of I cannot find sanity in the russian muse though much to wonder I stand Ϟ Death Be Not THE Library for the Read a book or donate a Modern spanglish is meaningless To clear the the ONLY insult and I make it was to Though it was invalid because of a typo null and And in jest That excludes my initial charge of arrogance which I mistakenly retracted comments Let the air be especially now that the Austen contention has been laid to rest by the wise of  As a rule of it is silly to insult intelligence and foolish to insult a fool to his Best not to insult at all unless courtesy or truth require All of which i am sure i have John in the context of the rest of the poem I read it as saying that the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste Frankly I like is condolentia like His invectives against it is feigned outrage in some His other poems may be but nothing compared to the Sort of like telling a guy he has drunk too and he goes show you and ramps it up a Or Then the acts he threatens them especially were considered not just impure receiver of it is considered an os but very The mouth is ordered to the public The Romans considered it like and even worse than forcible Apparently the Romans in general clean in but threatening someone with it was also a colloquial way of attacking political telling them to shut Then Catullus clearly thinks the actual and any act of os to be that was far more than I wanted to say on such a distasteful aspect of was young and died young and it shows Horace and others also get dirty this way their Daniel wrt to Canticle of that sadly was the only good work of that His follow published decades later was I think because he had lost the faith in the meantime and committed suicide shortly Rather depressing that His point that impure verses do not make a poet necessarily impure may not apply given what he is and Don Quixote is a I am flabbergasted why you would deny Heck in most Cervantes is regarded as the first European How can the first the first work to get that not be a If Austen differed markedly then it is her work that would not be a After the romance was distinguished from the Cervantes was a proponent of the novel exemplares Cervantes considered himself a the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste Did I just walk into Century You guys have to loosen maybe you should think before Those were own words we were talking Yank your foot out of your mouth you need to know what Catullus was Its like the nastiest threat in all  but that threat is used colloquially against And Martial says adulterers should be punished with cutting off their ears of may have had some issues I may join in at Best poet ever was Best English meaning the language we That is a hard I enjoy Robert Frost the but that is rather Including older forms of poet qua poet I must concede to Cohoe that Donne is better than Way But poetry as it a side Shakespeare was a playwright and that first and There he has no though this or that work measures up or surpasses this or that of no other playwright measures up to the sort of totality of his See how I run away from discussing Catullus who I brought was clerics that found his writings in the middle hope they blushed at you brought up Catullus or rather expanded and burnt more words on him than all else I am still trying to scrub those images from my Matthew you delete I was in the process of liking Wrong But maybe the right There are other I already conceded that Don Quixote is a I am proposing a definition of novel which includes a unity of action which Don Quixote I can propose any definition I like because I am I cannot believe everyone is still cool Are we at Samantha what are we looking Greatest get something going should see the food at this block All my neighbors are Italian restaurant it Five kinds of scallops and shrimp grilled in so many My Alderman brought I think I love an Does he want me to vote for or very greatest novel is Anna I already declared it Anna Karenina it is that new AK translation that everyone raved about any or BTW know that when I die I shall be more powerful than you can gatekeeper of What is I tell if it looks delicious or Depends on whether there are beets in I Oh Pevear Volokhonsky all the That is marinara No You should come to our block why I posted trying to out dago those Oh you Some of them speak English until they started that sounds pretty Did you make a proclamation greatest American so all been in this neighborhood I wish I had roots instead of being a Gilead by Marilynne no that was greatest living novelist Maybe The Adventures of Huckleberry Gatsby is the greatest American or My Hahahahaha  My Anotonia is a lovely There are twenty better American Pater Edmund offered this excellent critique of Gatsby the redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to gave no account had no feeling about or knowledge the emotional relations between Gatsby and was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his his and putting in overtime at the symbol Gatsby takes place over a single three three three chapters with a car accident and also Inside that almost everything in sight serves a symbolic the automobiles and ash the upright Midwest and poisonous the white dresses and decadent Heavy heavy zero Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy Gatsby has been compared to typically to suggest a mythical quality to characters or a moral significance to his But moral significance requires moral or The Great Gatsby offers none of In it offers the No Name them Gatsby defines what it means to be an The language is so and it does NOT turn on a redemptive If how you read than you have completely missed the There is no between Gatsby and There is only an illusion that Gatsby must continue to The romance Quoting myself are the things I look for in a in nuanced and interesting lives of characters an authorly perspective that reflects some truth good plotting effective descriptive writing The romance is a figment of rustic heart beat faster and faster as white face came up to his He knew that when he kissed this and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable his mind would never romp again like the mind of So he listening for a moment longer to the that had been struck upon a Then he kissed At his touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was Gatsby has and in but is weak on and The power of Gatsby is contained in your point Fitzgerald describes the illusory nature of The American Dream in a way that no one has before or i just puked from that maybe i will still read it But i have a problem with stories that How is it not a I have no idea what you are talking I I almost never know what he is talking Maybe the Greatest but not the Greatest American I think the is at least as distinctively American as American and Huck Finn and My Antonia describe that I think Huck Finn says quite a bit about The America they have the most important quality in a unlike Gatsby Is symbolism different from So how about Huck Finn for first Everyone Symbolism is a device within a allegory is the work itself I I have no problem with but I know that I will never read HF but I will read Gatsby many more I will probably never read Gatsby but going to read My Antonia lots more But is TGG If what is I have read The Sun Also Rises probably fifteen but I argue that it is the greatest just a novel that I really enjoy TGG is an BTW the real discussion is on Fed or on  why is The Sun Also Rises so Is it mostly the drinking and the bull not a Hemmingway fan at but it is super fun For me all about fishing in the I savor that So Because of you and I will read it And HF is ok but rambles or meanders in the very I think because describing the best Spanish bender and you feel like there with PEEK at the last Its previous Hemingway is the greatest America writer who never produced the greatest works of America like the Mickey Mantle of America The writing is so but it never adds up to Although I would argue for The Short Happy Life as the greatest short story ever The first line is the greatest first line are you talking about that thread on I guess we could talk about prostitution but probably all on the same It was now lunchtime and they were all sitting under the double green fly of the dining tent pretending that nothing had Federalist Bond knocked out Madison you guys are against you said there were twenty better American novels than My You have named one that is not The The Grapes of Call of the Bonfire of the and Black Do Androids Dream of Electric and American Tabloid are at the top of the list for You only like boy What does that I just mean your list in kinda fine NOOOOOOO I read The or the Androids G of It is a great quintessence of cockroach poop You just object to the politics good luck trying to figure out what he actually objects blasphemous communist drivel with paper thin characters that needed to be put out of their JS tells the story but cant show And rants every other  Talking about the greatest American novel might have some Discussing who is in the top is a waste of Americans are not known for their Perhaps the country is too one step better above ayn Two of the five Man Booker prize nominees this year are First year ever we could be I completely disagree that Americans have great G of W is East of Eden is G of W is Your Androids book is going on my Good For the My Antonia is in the top Or the top IDK I run on but GofW is Never read my sound like I am a sixth you read that generation native so my love for G of W could be My Antonia has a whole wedding party eaten by a horde of ravenous Peter Jackson could have a field day with that Speaking of I cry every time I read Wagner It was a great choice of For sure but that took an aimless turn like a wandering Can you say what the point Both and Violent Bear it are great American As is a lot by Chaim My Name is Asher Lev is a great American Novel The Chosen is an amazing American Another book I could read over and over until I I love it So psyched he is getting love on a TAC Potok was required reading at my high school for AP Every teenage boy should read The Modernism Father The epic Totally blew my mind when I was they tried to ruin it by making it about but as I it as an adult I saw the themes It about and I appreciate But the coming of age themes are beautifully see what they The Jewishness is the backdrop for the more and universal theme of growing up TACers should do a Potok book I would love to hear all the I would love to do I have all his books already on my Orthodox Judaism is a terrific window through which to view ACTUAL I mean breathing Tradition with a capital My bedside table resembles midtown where do you just a hair south of Chicago A I went to Lived in Chicago from been here I grew up in southwestern Idaho in LA which is my native my wife is at a school I just got the last of the brood down to going to get Already ahead of you hours and was at the church campfire where we all sneak in booze to the Chicago park Wife and I had a trying Came home from yesterday with enough booze to take down pledge week at the University of She just nodded Grapes of Wrath was loathsome to I consider California to be my native particularly Southern But the California that my father and his father before him were born in is not the same California as Even in the last remnants traditional California culture has almost been annihilated in Los Angeles I weep since it is no The decline of California is the great tragedy of my One someone will write the Great California It will track the decline Joshua describes One of the great California books is Hells Angels by Hunter Describes California in beautiful elegiac Na So many things to disagree A few numbered Don Quixote is not properly speaking a though it is a precursor of the John the Baptist if you The novel properly speaking requires a certain diffusion of Cartesianism in the general The first novel is Robinson Age Essays by novelists lamenting the of the novel as the preeminent narrative art form of our culture John your reading of Jane Austen is even worse than your reading of The primacy of the common good is one of the main themes in Austen uses the individualistic form of the but she uses it to describe and affirm the attempt to find ways in which the life of virtue ordered to authentic common goods can survive in the modern Thus Emma is all about Emma learning to serve the common good of her rather than her own Pride and Prejudice is about the the respective vices of the aristocracy and and the middle class putting the private before the lack of understanding for aristocratic and the resolution comes from Miss Elizabeth and Mr Darcy forming a family of gentlefolk who will have the virtues necessary to really help others participate in common Also Mansfield Park is all about the virtue of constancy needed to foster the common good of a and of the extended community around a great house against the ravages of fashionable never going to go break Sunday after Are you sure that Austen and Newman led you to post Cartesian there a passage about that in Maybe I am too hard on But whenever I start coming then someone comes along praising Icantwritebutpretendto who calls for and prophesies the red How did that become acceptable What makes Austen great I hard to notice and point out to someone a certain balance in the action and the presentation of the Other novelists may be more exciting or more thought but Austen balances everything think Mozart as compared to Beethoven or Bach And another beef with Austen is that her hero and heroine emerge with a more refined pride and prejudice in the Does she teach the reader to be condescending and prejudicial to aristocrats at Liz condescending to aunt and Do they really overcome these I am not unappreciative of her There are deeper MacIntyre confirms these What is the virtue contrary to She overcomes her prejudice toward aristocracy by falling in love with Her despising Lad Catherine is just Lady Catherine embodies everything that can go wrong with And my whole point was that Austen is against Cartesian by the Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen An excerpt from After Virtue Austen pick apart her characters with greater precision than Liz and teach the reader to do the inculcating a refined unnoticed Refined condescension is But note Knightley reprimanding Emma for mocking Miss Austen is against mocking the parvula but she shows a way of appreciating their ridiculous side all the condescension is spoken like a true Austenian  So That quote is from one of the bad guys but he proves the point by opposition to Condescension is a true aristocratic and only in modernity does it come to be seen as a Austen shows the difference between true and false see pics Just a Let me do Jane condescension is viewed more Readers of Pride and Prejudice will remember the appalling who is forever praising the condescension of his Lady Catherine de Collins is both a comic and a pathetic and characterization is plainly a satirical but she is describing a moral world in which it was still possible to regard condescension as a Today it is not to describe someone as condescending is to condemn him or Condescension is a vice because there are no legitimate of from which to and so someone who behaves in a condescending way is claiming a superior status to which he is not The progressive acceptance of social equality as an I am could be roughly measured by tracing the moral passage of the concept of condescension from virtue to BUT I maintain that Austen does not understand nor can she the virtue of Emma is largely about Emma learning and i will grant a place for condescion as necessary to state or Also Fanny in Mansfield Park is a heroine of true who is then fittingly A Marian Then i should look at that before But can you cite humility in P and P P is maybe a little but certainly both Elizabeth and Darcy have to be cured of ahhh but there is the best kind of humility shown or near It is still a corrupt Pelagian if you will For once you agree with and where I disagree with too thought Austen To repent of sins but that is first to God for against Him alone have we you are worse than This is the Newman quote with which I most violently have been reading Everything Miss Austen writes is but I desiderate There is a want of to the The action is frittered away in There are some beautiful things in Emma herself is the most interesting to me of all her I feel kind to her whenever I think of But Miss Austen has no romance none at What vile creatures her parsons she has not a dream of the high Catholic That other Fairfax is a dolt but I like   So Newman and Nietchze are on my I I prefer critique which is really a critique of I take up and or and I feel like a barkeeper entering the Kingdom of I I feel as he would probably would almost certainly are like everybody humiliates them to find that there are fine great admirable which others can perceive and they I want to like Austen but the Pelagian thing just ooozes in being So much to disagree so Of course Austen is not to mention boring as I spent my Saturday on an ale Pub I think we were in nine different What did you guys get domesticated so much How often that is said wrt Chaucer already pointed out that stories are They reveal what we what takes us off the We are imitative They are all more or less vanity and agreement is As to I am free of her Siren song again now that I reread previous a quote of Gregory since that dreadful parson has made off as wonderful as the social virtues they are most entangling and most shallow in Where are the children in Too messy for tea Austen is as clean as a parlour as tidy as a morgue And if Austen is all why they Nice nice tea from the far east trade to go with plain dry scones and the best Bar so as to tag the whole Somehow I notice till now that Joel HF had tagged me in the ten books the original books that have stayed with you in some take more than a few and think too They do not have to be the books or great works of just ones that have affected you in some going to limit myself to profane could one choose ten books out of the or even out of the also limiting myself to books that I read had read to before my since books that one reads as a child have a special kind of haunting influence on the The Little House in Big My mother read this and its sequels aloud to But the first book of a series is usually the and that is true The image of the vast forrest stretching out in all directions as far as man could go for a whole At the Back of the North Wind My father read a lot of MacDonald to I might have chosen The Princess and the Goblin or Ranald but North Wind is the one I remember most The Lord of the I had had this read to me at least and read it myself at least that often by the time I turned Perfect lias und Odyssee nacherzählt von Walter retelling of and especially the pictures by the Provensens were my introduction to heroism and My older brother and I used to act it He cried at the death of and his tears moved me no Jenseits des goldenen Nebels Amazing Tolkienesque effect on the But very All her other books are good but this was my Jane My father read this to us when I was about and we lived in it much later I was astonished how clearly I remembered all the how little I had understood A History of the World I read this about three My ambition when I was about was to grow up to write books like Hillyer is the American Bill An I read this when I lived in as Peet The Gentleman from Indiana Booth Tarkington is an underrated I read all his Pride and I read this first when I was Jane Austen is the greatest Anglophone fiction BY now I left enough room for Robinson Crusoe or The both of which were read to me around the same time as Jane Nor for Rosemary nor for Jack nor oh The Neverending Thread the tag Does Austen ever mention I remember any such You are criticizing the of not She does however mention porter in and cold Austen is scorned because her promoters seem to assert that she portrays the full flourishing of human But she does Be more modest in praise and the uncouth might be less This discussion on Austen has made me return to my absynthe the bottle is Instead of buying a couple of books on I should have bought more Curses I will try to play O Lord let me be submissive to my superiors and condescending to my BTW Pater I believe Twain is knocking He was anti In his mind the bartender would hate heaven being the servant of the Likewise Twain hates all the so called fine things being through and through That makes Newman and I love it when Pater Edmund drops by and argues all my points for I wish you would stop talking about tea It is the most straw filled of your straw man arguments against There are shooting and dinners in but I think of a single tea Mr Berquist said Emma was one of the best I think it was If not just promoting another TAC  There are now some sad gaps in my what is the rabbits Michael originally argued that Jane Austen is like a painter who portrays rabbits She is good at the but her subject is small and is the There have been many riffs on this theme over the last comments or I specifically compared her to Albrecht thank you very who happens to be one of my favorite painters He also called John Donne so we obviously have to listen to you just fear my I return and what has I fear no I am a greater user of neologisms a boooold claim come the that are afraid of no and for the most part very though some few short and There also are the Misprints to confuse the enemy at his Then see upon the flank a company of picked Ambiguities covering what shall be a feint by the squadron of Anachronisms led by old Anachronos a terrible chap with nigglers and a great murderer of John call me domesticated again and sock you in your gd face and stay Samantha I be not a wrong with being I like indoor plumbing Michael mostly I was making an obscureish Fair But I really understand what is so disagreeable when one writes that Austen is just not as thematically great as other Is that really that When you use in a slighting I get I use domestic in a slighting See above Domesticity is I get square indoor it beats I agree that her subjects are They are not or perhaps very but they are not Small is different from which is the phrase I actually used In what sense are you using if not as opposed to deep as opposed to Sweeping as opposed to Universal as opposed to not sure any of these dichotomies fit the bill Certainly the one here with an for Russian Whatever anyone can say about the they tackle the largest themes they I see that as much in Austen Have you read the MacIntyre Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen An excerpt from After Virtue I did when you referenced it before You are not with an for Russian I assume we all have an for Russian except John who hates everything except the Russians tackle larger Do any Anglo novels reasonable could be said to be better than also do Katie has the But pretty sure my collection is pretty So human action leading to happiness or the common Big always in a more particular way and not the one who said Austen force me to defend a position I never took lucky tNET is far too long for me to go dig up your comments and prove that you are being Better than I am partial to Potok Mansfield Park is probably about as big as read that Potok is lovely but not in the same league as Austen  Orwell is a great So all agreed that Austen is a great and the fact that she take any climactic upheavals in society as her subjects in no way detracts from her  And you dig up evidence for me being I have said the same things every time the Austen thing comes Orwell wrote an hilarious review of That Hideous George Orwell on That Hideous Strength Manchester Evening August Reprinted in The Complete Works of George Peter XVII a just criticism hate is that another black That Hideous Strength is I love CS Lewis as much as the next but call a spade a In I care for the first two of the Space Trilogy either Can we all agree that Albrecht Durer is a great and his paintings of rabbits in no way detract from his We can agree on that as long as we drawing any annoy the true worshipers at the altar of Michael I found Austen is about freedom rather be a natural slave was accused freedom to be I am now extremely resentful that Michael made me hit previous about ten You called Austen I stand by that thematically and you have misread it as an Austen instead of a criticism of Capitalist going to have to hit previous a few more times to find damning you monster holy only made it a couple thousand I give you keep denying your crimes against you always take everything in the worst obviously domesticated rabbits are charming and craptastic is an expletive of surprise and praise and wonder at the same I ONLY objected to Beitia saying Russian novelists are better than EVERYone is not charming or Is that what you want me to a guy compliment manners and society without getting beat Never seen such rude domesticated rabbits and Grand themes in Longsuffering or my sister got the sniffles and the hem of my dress was Magnanimity or the new neighbor condescended to visit and my heart went Homeric I like that Orwell and I agree that Lewis seemed to overuse allegory deus ex machina in his I guess I prefer where virtues are not set on a pedestal but rather are identified through their falling away from some He train wreck of consequences makes the story fun to Austen is Magnificent insight into human Especially do you mean only women Back to how virtues of the trifling led to Nietchze concluding God is Henry and tea party virtue drove men to find absynthe and the spread of eventually leading to prohibition and more I am ok with just knock out the great not the epiphany of all If you I feel suffocated or like a bull on the verge of becoming a Know what I I try to be so when was the last time you read in I go to Mass you only new Now who is the speaking of these theses where are they is there a place where I can access TAC has them in the at least in some boxes upstairs last I knew womp In I taught P and P a few years I poured over the text and found that it as deep as I had BUT I should read it The discussion has been helpful and at times I am overstating my Austen while good is not as great as advertized and may even be On top of that I have a terrible I am reeeeeaaaally not that big on the whole novel I think she is one of the very best in So for me means to for Joshua Kenz And Joshua in did you read all of remarks above as well as Pater Edmund and my If having to admit you misjudged an artist makes you feel too She is and she have to be the epiphany of all virtue to be But what some claim I think anyone has claimed The epiphany of all talk about something Caleb has a blog post with his project coming out this week about whether for is actually good What do you Is All I asserted above was that focus is mainly on the social Will any say that she is presenting magnanimity or the full scope of All asserted is that she reveals some part of human nature and not all Will any entertain greater If we admit that her aim is more to present feminine I am And have so for what do you  move on changed my She is trying to impose on social virtues are Are you claiming that it matter how men relate to one NO define your sir I say the virtues Austen shows are more the domain of I am done Arguing is not a feminine virtue a vice too often and we can quickly descend now to the abysss  What does for You said Austen deals with and that the virtues she shows are more the domain of are more the domain of according to That is then I defend What is for you have been extremely critical and dismissive of so if your real complaint is that her books portray then you must not think very highly of these supposed But I do think highly of only not when men only engage in What are these you are talking are you saying men are not supposed to have In fact scroll I said the social virtues IN ISOLATION are Austen is offputting to many men because they are a bit isolated and not Do I need to prove NOT AT your not reading what I Social virtues are important but more important for women than And women can use their household as a training ground for the beasts in  For those men who lack which is Have you heard of the unity of the And who has pray What of reverence for the sacred in Why are social virtues more important for women than BECAUSE THEY ARE QED for what virtues are more what more the one throwing around the term like you know what it If you deny there are we really have NOTHING to discuss because the point is that men are a tad too That is why so many men take offense at  It does not mean that women and men do not share in ALL the I think you are using the term possibly without actually knowing what you Only that the men accentuate some more than women But this is no not dismissive at I would be more horrified at portraying a bunch of testosterone pumped Amazons are not natural as the etymology of the word Your entire critique of Austen apparently comes down to the fact that she focuses on and according to you that seems to be a fatal So how is the term not I say fatally I have said what I said many times again ignored You say fatally but you have said enough derisive things to make your attitude plain dismissive to say that a man is not a That a woman should not strut about like a dismissive to say that men are somewhat MY ATTITUDE changes precisely as folks who defend claim there is no flaw at If we limit our praise of Austen to the scope of the world she If we deride those more Homeric loving men for not liking I think that is to not ackowledge that Austen is not investigating the more manly pretty obvious going on I think So what is for What did I say that was offensive kinda I thought that the like justice were the greatest of the moral virtues because they are directly ordained to the common How Since the social virtues are in the private Would social graces help you to Yes I saw what you said could be taken Why would you say that social virtues are more important for women than Leadership relies on social which is not feminine or You at over you could just just take this thread and recopy it as a short Add some typesetting and good layout and you could market it as a dialogue inside the head of an erudite and nostalgic the I mind so much if you think there are virtues more suited to even if you have poorly defined ideas of what that But if you simultaneously want to relegate women to and obviously disdain these same then you unwittingly reveal that you actually think much of Did I say more I meant more feminine but perhaps should have said are more noticeable when lacking in women than in I even mind that much if you like But if you think her work be great because it seems to focus on what you think are then we have a If you want to say that Austen depicts a primarily domestic and that interest you all that then But if your complaint about Austen is specifically her then I think probably a Other virtues are more necessary in a These however grace the You have entirely misconstrued my Obviously you would say but I think I been trying pretty hard to understand but it keeps coming back to I have had the honor of knowing some great leaders they actively preach that being a listening and social conflict resolution are the greatest virtues for a leader to aspire What is in Austen more closely provides a guide through these Again to go way the society itself may be my real It is the men more than the women who are But I am I see that what I wrote can be construed as When I say I do not mean exclusively But men and women show virtue Again my real criticism of Austen is the As to her I have many times praised her as one of the best but also that I am not a fan of the novel as much and gave reasons times not being Feminine virtues are the virtues by which a good woman is said to be good insofar as she is a that is Think for yourself is both the most terrible advice and the best advice taken in two first we need material to think and a guide as to what is lots of stuff out there to study intellectual discipleship can be Which Laval Thomist claimed to have never read if that was a think for yourself so that one can be critical of our guides through It is actually easier to discern and not so Courage in a man can be rashness in a woman yet both can be equally In fact the kind of courage a woman often required is the highest type or most properly what it is as when she bears It is just less I think a lot of your claimed misunderstanding is using the phrase or other than saying or or Those phrases are probably less charged and seem to describe what trying to get at it usually be your own In that it is easily a pitfall especially without prior But the difficulties you posit everyone And the role of moral virtue is I did clarify when I said hospitality and I thought that is what Aristothomists meant by now you have to go back and edit every post where you put or virtues to say social I have spoken guide as to what is is seriously how many young men fall into Ayn they need to be protected from themselves IV mean between boastfulness and self homilia emmeles only touched on as regards but I added hospitality to refer to the external things in private society or comradery for a less ambiguous  I forgot It is true that these are virtues in conversation and living together and common life in words and But Austen narrows the scope though as with Aristotle who follows by treating on in Austen the action and words fall under what is I think we can hit today if we put our backs into waiting for someone to say something I can argue instead of John being hard to Samantha being angry all the time and Isak just doing Screw you people Reading Descartes is accidental to a philosophical more a rhetorician than a the analytic coming out I have this not only on the but on the authority of one of the most historicist philosophers ever which is But I think it essential to read for a philosophical even if it as a philosophy what positive contribution does he make such that essential for a philosopher to have read I feel so bad about the I maintain a very active and often a large amount of time passes before I can return to the considering the responses to my Gatsby interpretation at the to which I will direct some further hard to understand a lot of the modern movement in philosophy without having read The only novelty in his thought is that he takes the argument as a real problem to beering and poeting and I would never brag about NOT having read or studied I see that as a defect in me I I think I would if someone were to make too big a deal about I brag that never read if you studied how would you respond not helping ask them what they thought was so important about X and then try to argue about True being a little When it comes to recognized or influential contributors to the Great never brag of not having read an author De Koninck thought most contemporary philosophers as dialecticians rather than But even a large portion of Aristotle is Maybe many of the moderns were trying to reinvent the there is something to be said of the Since truth is a common then studying the especially someone like serves not only to elucidate truth by comparison with but is also necessary in order to engage and share And there are true insights in many of the better moderns and I wrote an article on the necessity to study the moderns while at my job the other I should type it Here is a controversial Berquist is wrong in his definition of He opposes the nominal or etymological definition to the current But he misses the proper use of the One may be a lover of wisdom and not be a philosopher after I am not angry all the not even the angriest person on this thread by a long German philosophy is since I have judged it no one should ever read any of oh who I definitely get more angry than But her feathers are more easily not the I just think that a philosopher had missed something important qua philosopher if he had never studied he might have missed something important as a teacher or but not something essential for figgering out I love it Hey you guys want to hear a word I made up the other   I was going to say But I would also nominate Kenz and  I saw you type not sure philosophy is that necessary for figgering out Josh and Jeff just get I I on the other hand become a broiling vessel of the righteous almost as much as If Scott took he would grow see good work we can push this dumpster fire of a thread past Feil to answer your earlier I read but I read and thought it was I stand magical just made me laugh out loud Who like magical You like Borges or I can understand not liking Helprin found him sort of but magical realism as a whole is never read Isak Read what I get I just dislike diatribes against I do not my feathers I become angry in direct proportion to the injustice before Me I get but I quickly cool Feil read any but I like even though he is a better writer than I just find the whole genre sort of see you even get angry about getting angry Like a bad deodorant strong enough for a but disproportionate for a I have warned a few prior to their ass getting kicked by a they need to put heir chauvinism in inevitably push it and they get their ass kicked by a diatribes against What thread have you been reading sorry you like one of my very His books changed my perception of the world for the far far But a subjective Have you read Chronicle of a Death Philosophy just is figgering out Michael Beitia What is this We agree to disagree on math years of solitude is a great I SAID IT Marquez or Just bragging Jeff I am sorry for not having been read both this as not as a statement of what I in read past tense in this IMHO Edward Surely you mean something stronger than the claim you are making is true as long as you think all men are rational is no all I meant by that is that just because a book had a profound effect on me does not guarantee it will have that same effect on That seems pretty In other I am not upset if someone else does not think as highly of Gabriel as I I do not demand that anyone worship at the altars of my favorite or as highly of Austen as bwahahahaha Although I would of course argue for his objective literary thanks for the i read a novel in a while because of a long series of great Michael I have an inordinate love of nested I also do not refer to the phrases of others as until understood John I steering my comment at you just received collateral damage from my drama drama is so And yet men think arguing is Disappointments include a few favs on here Saints lives disappoint and Alban Butler is a great writer I think you would enjoy any of Marilynne books and They are Of those who have read I think I am in the minority in liking Housekeeping the Does anyone besides me feel really strongly about Knut I got a copy of Hunger on your and will read it when I am done with Dharma and then John new first novel in White John excerpt from crave and to have are as like as a thing and its For when does a berry break upon the tongue as sweetly as when one longs to taste and when is the taste refracted into so many hues and savors of ripeness and and when do our senses know any thing so utterly as when we lack And here again is a foreshadowing the world will be made For to wish for a hand on hair is all but to feel So whatever we may very craving gives it back to us Gilead is on my to read More from is so little to remember of anyone an a conversation at a But every memory is turned over and over every however written in the heart in the hope that memory will fulfill and become and that the wanderers will find a way and the whose lack we always will step through the door finally and stroke our hair with dreaming habitual fondness not having meant to keep us waiting But gotta having craving especially after greatly craving or long and my memory is such that my name comes under the out of sight out of As a layman I must say this thread is quite I not in much of a position to go on about the but I do like what Keep it I think the point is that the mere existence of longing destines us for fortunately for I crave a and I have some in the It all works For my next going to find the hidden message at the bottom of the I crave fig but having is not as satisfying as the time spent Memories are better than if thing and shadow are Plato and Homer make me a stickler on No better according to the only person to ever hashtag I feel accomplished anything so utterly as when we lack my senses dont work that The I appreciate and even know a thing or person and in ways better in But that is of the mind not The quote is more teleogical and rings truer Michael Beitia Ready for the next The Gotta love  MY personal gnosis Somebody stop me before I break out into Depeche No not backwards employing a form of DANG i aint heard that before never But the way the metaphor I I am a having is better than desiring guy but i get I think magisterial almost as bad as or poets sheesh a cover my ass trope more like syllophoric metagismic chiasmus I see tNET has ascended to Marilynne Robinson Very Carry how are you liking Have you finished NOT But you had me And I had forgotten this three days of why is there so much weird Catholic wrong with Catholic kinda people being what they that a whole horde of everything from superstition to legitimate private revelation would be found among the especially since the book is so in the case of the three days of super  of D is from the one of the false La Salette What heard about it too given Apocalypse and other such As I understand the is that there will be three days of cursed darkness where everybody who goes outside gets eaten by demons unless they have special blessed weird little groups of can sell My attitude to private revelations is if their is any truth to find out in due Then the point of Perhaps certain people at certain times needed Dont know if there is a legitimate I just dont ever plan to live in Paris or Some of like the reports of Marian apparitions in the Ukraine or Fatima are clearly that they occur in a very particular location where the Faithful are suffering and they help to morale what I remember of the three days of darkness was that at that time only fire from blessed candles would but not that the provenance of the candles would not too especially since the second coming exactly a To be also a lot of weird fundamentalist stuff like it just all claims to come from Revelation instead of from private revelation Private revelation is for two warning and The latter Like EL old men will dream dreams and your young men see right out of Fair And we are in the times of Chastizement So yeah it is Not THE  I think going to make it to That it will be usher in the age of Mary I know you guys but the age of Mary is sooooo not in the the Church will be its not the last days How do you know not the last It could totally be the last Jesus is pretty clear that gonna know when the last days what about the seal and the probably allegorical stuff from Revelation that is impossible to thunders have not happened and you know what Anthony Marie Claret said about them I know what he But I will now google him Protestants looking at blood BWAHAHA The days of as reported by is how I heard it it had to be your baptismal I figured I was as by grandmother baptised me in the NICU doctors figured I was certainly not going to make and my parents exactly she snuck in the NICU with some Lourdes under the pretense of giving me a teddy and baptised me there But she give me no Tribulation and Triumph is the book I recommend You can safely skip the first title should really be justification of traditional scripture interpretation against the excesses of historical and form oh yeah and also the end tacked There are some interesting things in private but be It all boils down to I can die on my walk And go to So I better get to Christ who is the seer of that because i do know there is one legit thunders sons of Mary but they have not and I still have that teddy name is He HATES communists and is foul Since he was my baptismal would he work against demons during the three he would probably just call them And spit at He also has a terrible cigar and beer taking it No more than pages I read in the mornings with my coffee just NOT La Oh many saints have spoken of days of Hildegard von Bingen for But she was a bit big on crazy imagery in who knows how literal that is meant Anna Taigi had shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three Nothing can be and the air will be laden with pestilence which will claim but not the enemies of It will be impossible to use any lighting during this except blessed who out of opens his window to look or leaves his will fall dead on the During these three people should remain in their pray the Rosary and beg God for All the enemies of the whether known or will perish over the whole earth during that universal with the exception of a few whom God will soon The air shall be infected by demons who will appear under all sorts of hideous I this at a time when the Church was under attack in France and Pius VII of it could be projection on her what I It will actually be a lot comforting probably should start the daily rosary ahead of private revelation is not de I love telling that to Fatima oh those wicked and adulterous what do you mean private revelation is not de You arrogant TACers probably even know what de fide means since you know anything about the magesterium just trying to help things get to pious And yeah Fatima is the elephant in the prophecy Well of course But I do think too dismissive an attitude is a As if one simply cannot bring himself to believe that God can actually do It is a disease of the one infecting that cause them to doubt the credibilia But ultimately many fans of these things miss the What matters if I am prepared for the if I am not prepared to go to the Lord This always gets interesting when I leave it And then I have to scroll back a million there is no new It ends with therefore I can dismiss if I all that piety stuff always drove me If I can I just be a really impious going to go get some candles blessed Do the matches need to be blessed I call tNET magisterium on At TAC I had a running dialogue with Peter that started with talk of the I well Paul says the Jews will come to the Church before the That so the end is not He caught me in the parking lot one did you the Jew of to the We also called each other cracker and white bread and threaned to carve each front of gave us some odd looks pretty sure the new claim is a fairly specific it means that with the writing of the Apocalypse whichever was the chronologically last book of the everything necessary for Salvation had been I think meant to indicate that Samantha most catholics are You might improve that both the Rosary and the Brown Scapular were originally matters of private the Brown Scapular is I would like to never pray the Rosary And the Prayer to Michael Michael the defend us in battle is reported to have been written in response to a private  As a Not sure what basis a Catholic would have to think that not forgetting you a The Church is pretty insistent on the importance of material things in aiding Holy Blessed who die wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal a scandalous claim the Scapular is part of the habit of the Franciscans and not exactly fringe Catholic just another But it is true that no revelation after that is And hence none of it must be But to reject all of it I think is just as and can be especially when we have liturgical feasts under those I believe in but I rarely think of It is not the object of after What is for example the etc need not be so tied Edward scapulars in general were derived from the religious habit regardless of whether this or that one bases itself on private The rosary appears to predate and there are many versions of the not just Our the prayer written by Leo XIII was a different much longer than the short version that was established from after low Oh and Cohoe has reminded me I need a new brown I will that some of what some TACers said about it amounted to as if the qua physical was a talisman of rather than a sensible reminder of I might be about the Dominicans and but I remember hearing that their habit includes the brown And this seems to confirm FAQ The Dominican Fraternities exists because it is a gift from God for His Church through the You are wrong The Dominicans stole theirs from the The Dominican scapular is The Brown formerly only able to be blessed by a Carmelite is still tied to the the feast of etc The scapular is but is not the same as Brown Both OP and OFM scapulars are fairly novel century The Black Scapular is fairly Remember orders were funny The Dominicans absorbed many penitential but did not really associate them closely with themselves until after as a way from protecting them against the Franciscans who were seizing all such and forcing them under their Catherine of Sienna in a Dominican was a b beguine under the protection of the Order of lest her group be forcibly The claim the Brown Scapular is no more scandalous than the Apostolic Absolution or anything else which can be No one can know I can my sins without sorrow or a firm purpose of amendment and claim that receiving absolution from a Priest on my death bed will save It Does that mean that Absolution is a Of course Abusing Absolution is scandalous as is wearing a sacramental PS similarly a wedding anyone who thinks that the Scapular is an excuse for license is just asking to be surprised at the last The scandal the prospect of the promise itself is an invitation to superstitious All the qualifications that have to be added make the promise meaningless at The comparison to a wedding ring misses the point completely There were some at TAC who took it that it was impossible to be damned if wearing pressed they would claim stories like guy was and before he died it fell Well if it is just going to fall off if you well what does that say of the The promise is supposed to be hopeful well if you are it will fall So the promise should be read those who follow what wearing this scapular who are wearing it shall not be But that just means one who follows God and perseveres is not So what was the point of the Is it that if you stick to the way of originally Carmelite embodied in you will in fact persevere in following because to do this is to follow in a particular Yep I think it is that last but I do think that many fans present it that account the longsuffering of our as also our most dear brother according to the wisdom given hath written to As also in all his speaking in them of these in which are certain things hard to be which the unlearned and unstable as they do also the other to their own Ok Let Father Kavanaugh know He uses the wedding ring He is the English translator of the writings of both of Avila and John of the a member of the Institute of Carmelite Studies and was the vice postulator for the canonization of to say that that promise is but a feature of revelation in general that often obscure and requires been discovering the Anchorage Holy of Rosary ever morning and not what used They skip the three Hail Marys for and But also not the Dominican been looking around for an explanation but found As to the brown this one seems the There are others worn by members of but the one for laymen is the smaller As to the few Dominicans believe the Virgin Mary gave the Rosary to But the rarely say so in Scandal lead into You accuse Our Lady of leading souls to There is the attachment of the rosary of All that But to persevere in that is not for those of false devotion or Or Our Lady will lead them out of She will crush the head of the serpent and that hour The Hail Marys and Our Father is not part of the Rosary which is Our If you read Louis Marie de you would see he starts it as one does the traditional office O Lord open my lips to proclaim thy and the veni Sancte She is much more powerful in these times than you can imagine and more beloved of God than all men and angels If superstition cause one to begin the it is not the reason they will The fine line of came across recognize that version All I knew was being out of the church for a little next thing I know JPII adds The If you want a sure path though or the surest by That is TRUE DEVOTION of Louis de That kind of blows away the worry about pray them or I think folks have unnecessary scruples over being supertitious A Mission for Jude Whenever I go to eucharistic I have a little ritual that I something I consider to be a good There is an ad in my now for the name of this menswear is probably because of the earlier mentions of Edward Langley I wear a brown with a miraculous medal I wear one though the Can say I fault some for believing where The lady who explained its purpose sort of implied as and sure she mean those are Miraculous medal is way I meant that I cannot say that I Some may seem superstitious who simply have a great deal of confidence in Our Can be mistaken especially by those without apropos Looking back on I have to say that the scapular I see as a badge of my devotion to Our however poor that Also a sign of her care for and fidelity to Our Lord and to as well as her special protection over the solitude of a real The medal and its prayer also have a profound a whole spirituality in itself amazing True devotion carries it further but I would be lost without no Things You Should Know about the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Carmel the Scapular devoutly and It is my To be clothed in it means you are continually thinking of and I in am always thinking of you and helping you to secure eternal I think people often overlook this very important aspect in favour of only focusing on the moment of death  I think the constant physical presence of the blessed item close to skin reminds one to behave My key chain for my car is a miraculous   so how many ages and epochs have I a lot No come around This thread should be published and made into a huge tome and displayed as art at some prestigious The public will just eat up the narcism mixed with naval gazing tech debating philosophy and raw exposure of and politics from what seems to be lunatics escaped from an asylum in the California The other day I found a photo of Molly Gustin at La Cabana having a liter turbo Good times Punctuated by occasional bursts of humorous we cannot deny Post Ah Let me find Wow only away from the big We got Honest What IS superstition exactly and wrong with Superstition is an excess to which the virtue of religion is Stevie Wonder Superstition Stevie Wonder in the studio I can dig that Ed Did you check out my catholic answers They had a few more articles on As a textual starting you could do  Just kidding here it is no These are traditional What is the now all I can think of is that series of bud light football ads from a few years  The defect is irreligion Makes of Superstition Catholic Answers have been listening to you on EWTN for about a year I left the Catholic Church years After Is this a natural My guess is I found my old shoe box of school nearly all will never visit the Internet or be As my goal was to never be John religion is a natural ergo irreligion and superstition are As a that was never a goal but it was a Most pictures of me from my active days are of me looking through the Within superstition Aquinas includes undue worship of the true and to these last three Aquinas calls them the of the superstition After Francis and Dominic both practiced divination hence the Gospel passage that inspired Francis heard at a but picked by flipping the Missal open and putting his finger and the motto of the taken from the Preface of the BVM Undue worship is in observing the rites of the since Christ has and they foreshadow are now a And in impersonating the whole And this happens when one offers worship contrary to the use of the while acting on the part of the whether this be against divine or human authority or ecclesiatical So in acting for the a priest commits liturgical he has sinned through This seems but as Aquinas says Et ideo quidquid homo faciat quod pertinet ad Dei et ad hoc quod mens hominis Deo et etiam corpus per moderatam refrenationem secundum Dei et Ecclesiae et consuetudinem eorum quibus homo non est superfluum in divino Si autem aliquid sit quod quantum est de se non pertinet ad Dei neque ad hoc quod mens hominis feratur in aut quod carnis concupiscentiae moderate aut etiam si sit praeter Dei et Ecclesiae vel contra consuetudinem communem secundum pro lege habenda Totum hoc reputandum est superfluum et in exterioribus solum ad interiorem Dei cultum non Unde in libro de vera inducit quod dicitur regnum Dei intra vos contra qui scilicet exterioribus principalem curam not denying that there is more to religion than the natural I just want to let you know I actually read through the Latin this Also pertinent are has to do with throwing salt over your in omnibus incantationibus vel Scripturis suspensis duo cavenda Primo quid sit quod profertur vel Quia si est aliquid ad invocationes Daemonum manifeste est superstitiosum et Similiter etiam videtur esse si contineat ignota ne sub illis aliquid illicitum Unde Chrysostomus super Pharisaeorum magnificantium fimbrias suas nunc multi aliqua nomina Hebraica Angelorum confingunt et scribunt et quae non intelligentibus metuenda Est etiam cavendum ne aliquid falsitatis Quia sic eius effectus non posset expectari a qui non est testis falsitatis cavendum est ne cum verbis sacris contineantur ibi aliqua puta aliqui characteres praeter signum Aut si spes habeatur in modo scribendi aut aut in quacumque huiusmodi vanitate quae ad divinam reverentiam non Quia hoc iudicaretur Alias autem est Unde in decretis non liceat Christianis nec in collectionibus herbarum quae medicinales sunt aliquas observationes aut incantationes liceat nisi tantum cum symbolo divino aut oratione ut tantum creator omnium et Deus It seems fair that some treat the scapular this as a Read the whole of and is helpful here q re If you doing the associated devotions on the is it really worth ie are any of the associated promises good because the necessary devotions productive of the necessary virtues heard contradictory only fight about something   Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of You electric donkey bottom biter come to the wrong This is Arguments is next Aquinas was wrong Is this the right room for an Your insults suck Joshua I fart in your general direction The white man persecuted and oppressed the Native Americans to such a shameful extent that there can be no no amends No he Yes he did Casinos are a way to transfer History Two years during my first year of teaching at Wabash I was invited to give a a Good For or The Detroit Lions will come out atop the NFC North by the end of the Put that in your pipe and smoke Beitia of controversial issues the free encyclopedia This is a list of Wikipedia articles deemed controversial because they are constantly being in a circular or are otherwise the focus of edit warring or article This page is conceived as a location for articles that regularly become biased and need to be or but not allowed to argue Yes you De Koninck is overrated and destroy the places immediately surrounding the Gilson is the only true If you want me to go on have to pay for another five I am pro But only if they let you try Sex should be spelled Hands over five But I Only if you is a Prohibition Can we all be serious for a We all know the most controversial question you can ask a bunch of sex allowed in the common area of at least during the How else are we supposed to find a is why the girls go you allow the college might as well pass out Why is it so hard for women to find men that are and wife had no trouble at Because those men already have Well she may have gotten out of OH SNAP And then they died and she married There are all kinds of ways to is it fratrenize with the fair you really think Pope Francis just reiterated Regensburg in the libs love him for Pope Francis Slams Extremists Who Francis makes first papal trip to Albania in years I think they should put on the dating game at Would help the quieter people find a Hey Steubenville allows them to visit each dorm as long as the door is at last did last I should be more like Ew why would anyone want to visit a dorm room It is shocking to me how many pregnancies come out of the Christopher West TOB while you all were making yours was the I was answering the question asked by Can We Please Just Get Serious Here For A and I give Unless francis analyzed the breakdown of theology in relation to philosophy using an analysis of logos not reading I also think the way the girls dress at USC should be adopted as dress code at easy to get a man that way I really know Christopher West but I already like In case no one can tell I am trying badly to troll Haha still blocked by josh after calling his beliefs Without his the rest reads We have a lecturer coming here who is going to lecture on Metaphysical Errors of Christopher Deconstruction of John Paul Theology of the Should be Joshua I appreciate how poor you are at You must have a greater antipathy towards rational discourse in order to be I knew he sucked after listening to five minutes of a tall he gave here in Houston as part of the young adults It was dumbed down and sounded like a Protestant all Popularizers always cause certain like I I barely know the guys work so this is all Lendman remembers me finding where Liguori speaks of certain shameful acts West said could be licit in as he as long as it ended the right just about anything was fine leading up to Not to mention the immodestly of speaking about irrumatio and pedicactio to teens and young  By the guy do you mean Or Christopher  As a friend of mine once not anal He was joking but I think there are too many people who think about it in too much I think his main fault is that he never really studied any actual only read and that is being a nor a moral is difficult knowing the tradition makes it easy to make grave errors reading Such as thinking that such impure acts impurum or even imperfecta were licit in  What would be too much I have two problems with Not a fan of his writing fanboys who really understand the underlying Plus why should I care about Max Or however you spell In I grow increasingly annoyed at the uneducated commenting on matters for that the guy who compared Hugh Hefner to   About the women in were some who argued we should adopt a Steubie I remember were against but many thought that daytime visitation to the courtyard was But I liked having a place for just after seeing a USC guy come into the lobby in a bath towel having locked himself out of his if girls were modesty would restrict us and we would have to change after a shower in the and in general behave differently what matters are too high for this the topic of in other behave like civilized  It is a safe haven for the women too to live in an area where the men For more reasons than modesty and sexual Many college boys do not understand personal space or The first few weeks of the year are best spent sitting on the patio watching the whole campus of freshmen constantly hitting on every female that in one ought not to attempt to comment authoritatively on matters that one has no idea For I do as a debate about what kind of rocket design SapceX should I know little to nothing about rocket Christopher West ought as a comment about matters of moral theology because he knows little to nothing about moral The problem is when you say that it gets dismissed as it is not MacArthur thought a majo problem was being beyond which I suppose is I have gotten backlash for not answering certain questions but telling someone to study an Z But someone reads a short and misleading say and and now they feel they have to a and Molinism just sounds but what they hold is actually and because they actually understand the which presumes studying things prior to that they come off as And the same goes for tons of amateurish theological speculating that everyone and his dog thinks they are competent to long as the Church defined something de I can be as speculative as I And you must respect my even ifI know nothing at all about what I am pontificating As you can tell this has been a pet peeve of those fully capable of learning the rather follow the trail of curiosity and rather than restraining judgement until being learned Perhaps most of us do that from time to time more to go get a move like to be in bed before the clock strikes  I catch up on why you want to nail Christopher West but you knock his He speaks to the culture and is transmitting the sense of what JPII wanted to done both CW and translation of CW is like the fast food the original is a  But some people will only stop for fast food once  And if you read and Wojtyla is pretty explicit about how a husband should treat his I have been rather scandalized at the number of Christopher West followers Have children outside of wedlock and Think that NFP is the only way marriage could ever exist and Love and Responsibility is quite  It is enough to hold CW responsible for what he his followers might be another But he has stopped more people from using ABC than those who abuse NFP I said he is not all there are certain things that are fine in the company of men that are not in mixed as certain moral the sort of consolation one can take with other that they simply cannot do with girls the last part was tongue in I am sure women often need the same Man and wife though that differs too can discuss and hear things together that are immodest in unmarried mixed such as the details of NFP from Daniel Lendman Anyone read acting person besides  CW talking to the philosophy and theology talking to the ones who have bought into secular culture  Where did you get a copy Popularising complicated theological texts is always difficult and rather  I hear Acting Person is amazing I hold West accountable for a disgusting view on os ipurum and imperfecta They inherently are abusive and objectivising of the contrary his radical claims about I studied Person Act in its entirety with Janet Smith one semester at Someone who does not grasp fundamental principles is more likely to make Acting Person is indecipherable Christopher West makes  but Daniel this is one text that stay in the libraries and It would be almost useless there   Person Act is not indecipherable just a very complex text the translation really help It pays careful if one is interested in a phenomenological ethics that has a good critique of Kantian normative I do not condemn Christopher West and his I have even learned something from I had to look CW since I have never heard of But fortunately for me he has a website and he says he is totally and been on  CW has to recognize his limitations and be humble about The point is that he oversteps some  Popularity can be a heady experience I had to take course on phil of I found it Everyone else in course found me annoying for complaining both positions were right  like a TOB rock star  But face it without most Catholics would still not know anything about  How many of you have read the original of taking a Certainly in America that is I say that about Acting having read it multiple times and used it in my abortive I see as but nor do I see it as some sort of answer to the The text is far more muddled than it needs because frankly that was how he Not all of that is the though that as the translator makes the text unclear on some important especially how to relate some of his claims to perennial philosophy I mind most Catholics never hearing anything about  kidding Which class are you referring I really am  It is And it has a lot more to say about the human person that just procreation  You have to give it a fair I I find it overrated  I wish Pater dad would lead online seminars on TOB for TAC I think it is an important And very much of Can someone explain what is meant by TOB before we hit For the uninitiated  We are one of the stumbling blocks to it being taught in the church and other orthodox thinking We are resistant to the I think part of the reason you experience it that way is because of your awareness and connection to the the whole of Church I read the Not in a I think many of his personal opinions on certain points are in fact least taking a  Theology of the Body but you knew that Got I know that just as ToB  Sam if you get a take Fr Alan classes that he gives in the Archdiocese but I see almost every admiring theologian of JPII muddle things with the obfuscatory method of There is some limited application and but preaching to the masses one of And it would be a mistake to think is Church teaching It includes opinions while are are his opinions qua private theologian  Joshua personal as in Or I guess I feel like when you compare the work of JPII and you have to admit that JPII was a someone who was interested in working out a philosophical anthropology of the human whereas Benedict was a Can you imagine how obscure and disorienting it would have been for the to go to the Wednesday audiences while JPII was giving his TOB While of course also defending central aspects of Church teaching  No kidding Daniel it be understood that  Which makes one wonder about the prudence of such a  I think both JPII and BXVI will be Doctors of the Church some day  I highly doubt that  But what option did he  A super long a Never gonna read anything else but The Jewellers Shop besides the I have very but fairly obtuse and technical objections to his approach to I know enough about theology to have an opinion  No it have the theological weight JPII a Doctor of the His addresses on Wednesday about TOB are not The encyclical would have been as again not Church teaching  Dr Waldstein wrote the that pulled it all together JPII said that his project is purely And is still not has some rough edges in  The Wednesday audiences hold a higher regard than you think Joshua He was trying to encourage They are notmagisterial  He was trying to Humanae Vitae I wish he would have said it his project is purely a few more Auld Lang Syne for the balloon drop at Benedict wrote Jesus of Nazareth as a I can reject them as and do reject certain HV was a badly written encyclical as far as its argument goes JPII should have done something Humanae  I think anyone who read it in whole should talk about rejecting any of it We are all still recovering from that  First do your Matthew Peterson are you tuning  Probably with some help since you know how to read anything that presented in Thomistic terms I think that is fair to  What is It shocks me how myopic declaring any of the recent popes a Doctor would That title has already been fairly abused in its but There are several popes that I think all would recognize as greater Benedict or Leo That is not a dig  Why are you getting I so wish he would have stuck to play because it is even in translation it holds and actually does what phenomenology is supposed to do imagine the I have read it all play And Ducked up beyond all repair  not being but honest We made you are making unwarranted assumptions Replace d with f Where is our fearless Matthew I think the world can agree that JPII did not write  I think the post was the I have read all of JP and I have studied non Thomistic theology has someone read I was operating on the other side of the Lendman could vouch for what this but my paper on theory of truth earned praise from who said I articulated things he had thought but articulate I  I am sure the majority of TAC alumni read it is a project for those who are super interested in phenomenology but it is neither necessary nor indispensable for answering these If it works for God since it requires thomistic it presupposes thomistic I just see what it adds which be argued through traditional fields and That may be and I have no problem with that So much for my assumptions about are we having a  Yep disertation say that he uses a lot of words to say very Janet Smith did an interesting course at it was Acting Person read with part of ST I found it illuminating at any All is and tNET is  So I would ask you to explain exactly where JPII goes wrong but I have to get to And by the time I come this part of the conversation will be I think Dr Waldstein might differ from your  What really bugs me is when people on the JPII side trash St and the St Thomas people trash I think there is room for JP II is not the end Were it not for some particular projects I I have read There are many books most TACers read that would in good to And while I would love everyone to read them be It is perfectly fine to have quite a few higher on your list than reading who quite while there is benefit in is not among the greats of that is just So when someone has read all of the actual all of and and many other things maybe then I will say JPII should be next on your Until it is a matter of personal interest But it is really hard to work them both knows my writing were putting them together did I not send him excerpts from my What is the need for  Exaaaaactly My thesis was addressing JP II and against a certain reading of JP II against There is only one song epic enough for Europe The Final Countdown Music video by Europe performing The Final SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT I would say that Personalism arose as a reaction to the neglect of the dignity of the And that was a real It was on Personhood and its dignity in JP II and I argued that on substantial points JP II was at least compatible with as against Crosby I argued he skewed JP II to favor a pernicious form of but I also had some issues with including the relation of act to and on the question of essentialism One only needs to care about if you want to communicate to the majority of people in my need not be communicable to the on the other must always be not sure about that if we are talking about a particular type of I mean Even then Daniel I think you have to be aware of the issues raised by Cardinal Villeneuve and De In I find that one of the big failings in JP There is a tension in his writings between the common good and individual dignity and that I think dissolves when we follow Leo ad But that has as much to do with the questionable notion of subjective rights as Joshua I think we are agreed on this One can only express so much in typed can the FB app auto refresh the thread without having to go to Unfortunately I finish writing my book on the whole I will post it to I probably could make a book out of various with some editing and are some lacunae to fill FB You guys and your stupid smart phones  Daniel to continue that thought about theology being evangelical digestible by more than the we need a language to do JPII gives us a new I and though not used to found it quite now having heard from my wife what went on in some if thr I think it best if things remain as they but I do not think that that is finally the language we should It had its place  Not as the basis for thought but it has a place in  if the truths expressed in TOB remain only in it is It is meant to change hearts of the whole of the whole I wish to make clear my I do not mean that Theology always must be for the I mean that it must always be communicated truths must be purified from the admixture of error and That is the work of That what I JPII wanted theologians to  I think there is as much error as you guys think there I think it is mostly misunderstanding which point about language are you About the language of personalism and phenomenology or of the Like  I suppose both It is the novelty that makes it indigestible outside of the that is one of the worst things in his I remember Nieto and I poured over a text for a long time because he had abused a word and the given the normal meaning of the would have been It took as an hour to figure out in an earlier passage he used that word as well in a way that was nonsensical and even excluive of its traditional We had to look up another work of his to find what he meant by his peculiar and unclear and then the passage was You cannot tell me that be avoided by not reinventing the wheel on language was the word in the context of salvation and Just want to be I really hate it when one of my comments winds up a dozen places down from where be  What he is doing is appealing to the heart of the person every to draw out why this way would be best for the human As opposed to HV which just comes down with and shalt what most people expect from the There is a difference between style and terminology  Joshua If you poured over it before the definitive translation by Dr it have made complete He unified the translations different editors over years of I think it was an encyclical Joshua was working He have cared as much in  You read JPII the way you read St ToB is own or so it strikes No you And my  And JPII makes up words me but he does it all the time so get used to And talking about the more academic  I better head off because I have a class in But you can say you heard it first on tNET that JPII will be a Doctor of the Church I see the need to respond to Kant and his but not sure using a similar method is how to do It surprise me But what he ends up doing is sounding as incomprehensible as the German philosophers to most And those that claim to readily understand more often than not a few rare get me started on the stupid attempts at applying the phenomenological following his by some of his followers and his fallacious argument against Thomist And I am referring to just about his entire not just some Weds The issue I had was an encyclical of all places remember predestination coming up in seriously did And Thomas is succinct and at least in So what was that about new language being We need I am sorry that I think him a great A good por but if you want to study that is But it is not the panacea for the Christ Nor is it even the definitive work within its own beginning of a not its final as it the reason we need a new language is that people cannot understand They are FB is a really difficult place to get into issues I have trace back further than to moralities of to subjective to a ambiguation of the notion of the common good mean really JP II clearly has difficulty reconciling the primacy of the common good with individual says as much Benedict wrote about as a young he found Aquinas and  I think that the world is largely alienated from its history and from the Traditions and teachings of the Mostly due to what is the best language to use I think the technical language needs to stay because it does what supposed to Not Just I think any must have difficult technical language in order to maintain the way I see is that modernism almost completely broke our connection with our past and with regard to how we are connected to NOT with regard to we are as it a new patristic interesting We need to speak in the terms of in order to get people back to the truth of Catholic  How do you respond to the claim that Pope Francis himself is a It is a on John Seniors I think he was too but he saw I am not talking about preaching in scholastic whether or others quit all the way to the used terms differently than But using the word was a great you used it as JP II did in think it was then you read the word in scripture in the same now you are in As far scary words like natural the words that are necessary for the faithful in general are relatively easy they are truly listening and not just bored kids forced in to get across sufficiently As far as the schools well Benedict had the misfortune of being under the influence of will leave it at that Personally I found jargon quite When I was or the first argument I remember was over the size of the universe and my argument that it was not infinite in size to my brother because it had to have boundaries in order to be a  The Patristic era is not one known for clarity of or terminology JP II would fit right in I would probably agree with We are all influenced by I would have to insist on a very nuanced Joshua for Pope that is my point about the patristic you are hardly So who would be our that to the clarity of he was but he foreshaows the I would agree with Joshua though that the scholastic terminology brought clarity to my own mine But we are Very The problems with scholastic terminology today are not they are I nominate you to be the next Hurry up and get a doctorate damn It is funny that my email it right before is gmail  We need to distinguish between reaching out to the and philosophically who we should try to encourage to adopt our and the common One step at a And the basics of our terms are easily  The prudential are the I am does that mean I eventually get imprisoned and executed for    all for using basic terms with I reject the notion that they understand at We need to explain when we NSA Well I am going to pour another glass of wine drink and be merry for tomorrow we there needs to be a of fundamental Philosophically we live in another  to work why I like thomists who engage with the Parmenideses and Zenos of our You are also Would I be a conservative if I think  TNET is the best thing to happen to And the worst thing for my sleep schedule after having a TNET I a very singular anomaly in the book of I feel like a part of world wide web history in some small what twitter was supposed to on the other must always be theologia in se is just as much a contemplative activity as philosophy it is such to a greater just that the duty to teach is much more strongly tied to the study of Theology than to the study of What are you talking tNET makes getting up at any hour worth it one might further argue that only members of the hierarchy have a strict duty to There is a difference between evangelization and just to add a Not John Boyer The distinction has more to do with content than Sure there I would say Do you evangelize I think they may need it These But in they are different I think so I see why distinguish Is all teaching meant to bring someone to to hold the I can teach things which I promote as I can teach the background of something which someone already I narrow evangelization to that Joshua teaching Spinoza right Sure as hell not evangelizing for Or necessarily dismissing Just presenting I think presenting a position you think false as false is only teaching extenso Unless you want to say teaching TACers Thomas on the existence of for is evangelizing for even if you distinguish the point speculative theology is sought primarily as an object of contemplation and the communication of those truths is for one the former belongs to the contemplative life while the latter to the active Are you evangelizing when you teach but as I the distinction has more to do with content than method or According to Jehoshaphat Escalante TAC might consider math as evangelization or rather Euclidean math I would say evangelization is focused on and essential to So would I And I think that is what almost everyone means by Yup only essential to it because the content to some not In the strict you cannot teach a And is the end of teaching a habitus of knowledge of the way things are or of the possible exception of the that points out a  I asked an either or Which one is the yes I meant the Ok habit of But incindental to my if you want to qualify evangelization as something like for the gift of or it still holds a secondary place in the intellectual I agree with speaking formally I deny that evangelization can be more important in a Christian but I just had issue with your The question was actually a point of contention between the doctor communis and the doctor Albert held in his Summa after that sacred theology is a practical on to hoc quod in veritate sacra tura practica est et stat in opere virtutis vel gicae vel quia si etiam verum in re vel utili hoc ipsum refert ad ut scilicet in fide vel in eo quod succedit fruatur per affectum vel intellectum affectivum summa per spem vel spei succedens summo per caritatem summa Historice proposita et praeceptive in lege et parabolice ad opus refert Hymnidice autem in psalmis scripta ad affectum refert et quod de deo et operibus eius non ut verum sed ut summe in referat totam pietatis intentionem in affectu et Sicut Aristoteles etiam in x ethicorum felicitatem contemplativam determinat ut ad quem rantur actus virtutum intellectualium et moralium et propter quod et ipsa quae tractat felicitate moralis sive practica est sicut et ceterae partes scientiae Differt autem ab aliis quas philosophi aliae enim practicae stant ad opus perfectum perfectione virtutis ista autem stat ad opus perfectione virtutis infusae per Edward sound hath gone forth into all the and their words unto the ends of the There as it an inherent impetus to the Gospel that compels it to go out from This compulsion is it is a command from Christ teach ye all baptizing them in the name of the and of the and of the Holy there is a kind of power in the truth of the gospel that makes it heard and known to the the word of God is living and and more piercing than any two edged and reaching unto the division of the soul and the of the joints also and the and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the With regard to Philosophical there is no such There is none in the first way because any merely human doctrine can in nowise be commanded to be taught to since in human doctrine there is always an admixture of As the Philosopher is more common for man to be in So with regard to the second philosophical doctrines do not compel the hearer as the Gospel human is slow and prone to errors as said even when men hear things that are they can deny it or put it off want to hear you again on this This is in response to the few conversions Paul saw in Athens when he then went to Corinth he said of his time I judged not myself to know anything among but Jesus and him I hold that Theology is necessarily whereas Philosophy need not In theology we and are compelled to reveal This does not mean that all theology should be But I would argue that all theology should be attentive to the current age in a way that the philosopher need not To be a theologian means to teach the Word of Nor should one hold that there is an identity between evangelization and there are diversities of but the same And there are diversities of but the same And there are diversities of but the same who worketh all in And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto To one by the is given the word of and to the word of according to the same To faith in the same to the grace of healing in one To the working of to to the discerning of to diverse kinds of to interpretation of But all these things one and the same Spirit dividing to every one according as he All spiritual gifts belong to This is for Teresa of sisters need not properly but they evangelize by caring for the poor and in eternal return of the is Theology whereas literature is in the Because you have an It was here when were discussing in the minority I was thinking it had something to do with drinking and to be like to throw my opinion behind assertion that JPII is I find the same goes for lots of the more modern magisterial Thank God for tradition so that we have more clear teachings to refer the new obscure teachings for Lumen Gentium makes no sense without Mystici which requires Unam It seems like magisterial teachings get less clear and more garbled over kind of like me and a  That works with the Rerum Novarum series and what follows Providentissimus I think they all thought they had to be as lengthy as Leo XIII papal who can write the most They could have just said or and saved a lot of I curious to when became synonymous with nocturnal theologians seem to have passed out definition of pastoral since lost the theologians I suppose have to discuss Jane defining it is like bringing matter amd antimatter into i am done with All i have left is derision and slight For JA actually i really dont like many of the Austen haters nor the quality of the members of team i will actually have to put away the movies and read one the books more Nietzschean Austen quotes from my up and coming Will to live with tremendous and proud always beyond To have and not to have pro and at to condescend to for a few to seat oneself on them as on a often as on an ass for one must know how to make use of their stupidity as much as of their To reserve three hundred also the dark for there are cases when nobody may look into our still less into our And to choose for company that impish and cheerful And to remain master of four of and  talk about obscure Nietchze is quite the impish condescending ass The did he learn it from Liz and You are baiting Jane were within twenty yards of each and so abrupt was his that it was impossible to avoid his Their eyes instantly and the cheeks of each were overspread with the deepest He absolutely and for a moment seemed immoveable from but shortly recovering advanced towards the and spoke to if not in terms of perfect at least of perfect Darcy is the ubermensch or from Sense and will be I will be mistress of just like Will To Marry traditional definition of to define and to condemn error Pascendi and note like its first word updated fuzzy wuv and no never any meany uncharitable words AND definitions are sooooo Jane your own how Nietzschean Beitia is getting three quotes in one I just wait for Kenz and Langley or pater for the smack down Jane Wagner used to be a friend of mine but then he got How John will to Mr Darcy and the a dissertation The final sentences of chapter of The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler probably how every chapter of a book should hung up and I set out the chess I filled a paraded the chessmen and inspected them for French shaves and loose and played a championship tournament game between Gortchakoff and moves to a a prize specimen of the irresistible force meeting the immovable a battle without a war without and as elaborate a waste of human intelligence as you could find anywhere outside an advertising When will it your own is that for It I just have to cherry pick some write about the society depicted in Austen is how most of the characters are and how Darcy comes along and wills past all of this comparative literature stuff is Tenure here I Matthew Peterson that was scroll its a bloody Bits of bunny splattered O Horror Horror The queen of wabbits is When you stare into tNET stares long into And when hunting an Austen make sure you turn into an Austen quote Jane Austen fan submits her work anonymously to and my as post Christian pelagian covering over our sins with piece is supposed to highlight the flaws in the publishing But could it highlight the flaws in Austen How Austen and Four style not be The elegant writing style of novelist Jane Austen may have been the work of her an academic at Austen even write Jane Chandler should be part of Senior I OBJECT in the most Austenian terms to Knowledge is for its own I refuse to condescend to peddle myself at the institutions of higher Have you learned nothing from De What should a TACer Birth of Austen the I await the right even if that means following course i assumed Peterson was criticizing a conversational and not This quality too of While selling off others into trifling she remained the unmoved Also in ordering her kingdom of cottaintails Potter being one she took a page out of Anyone remember how Croesus saved his warlike Lydians from annihilation at the hand of is why Austen gets so much deserved fricken Circe i tell you sans and Beitia has the wand of  kind of all this prodding and I get a Austen fan to  Pater Edmund is sleeping BUT THE how can anyone sleep through the they are all Or huddled trembling in their wabbit And here I though you were sooooo tired of me being angry all the far from I like angry people I still criticized Austen Keep looking Humor take a look at what Bond did to Madison on Not to mention MY jokes that only Bond crickets how are we ever going to have the facebook thread record if we all get You established all the Do you not see the Or are you taken with the siren song of getalongism is what rabbits They are docile unless you attack their queen unless you slay PATER EDMUND is Probably under an Austrian aristocratic petticoat of some distant He may pop in to say he has to go to vespers with a condescending flourish and or Michael has criticized and John already admitted even though pretending that he so I consider the Austen case Not actually Our Holy Father St Bernard was against should I say of which in other men is a restoration after a recreation of sense and From that time till now he was awake more than is humanly For no time did he regard as so wasted as the time of He held the comparison of sleep and death for very for as the sleeping seem dead to so the dead are sleeping in the eyes of Hence he could scarce keep his patience when he saw a religious in sleep who either snored too or sprawled he thought such a one a carnal or worldly The meagerness of his sleep was proportionate to the meagerness of his in neither did he indulge his body to in both he was satisfied if he had any at As for he considered a watch moderate if he did not spend the whole night goad and and voila quite willing to get angry about something be tNET is a great outlet for the socially unacceptable side of my nullum argumentum contra verba NEW how did Croesus pacify his Lydians and could it work in modern times say century England as a random culture and Is the poet a lawgiver of meaning by to include be They are now debating whether chocolate is per se evil on the This is the same place where the hangs I would expect no less from whether the pseudo thomism forum should be flagged and removed from slander and an absolute Next they will be asking whether it is ok to beat going Monk  i just quoted the Bill Cosby chocolate cake They shouldnt even be talking about They need to be beaten as Aristotle says for asking impious or stupid alum our gesamstkunstwerk is not far from the FB comment record not that the questions are hooorrible but really they should it call the ignoramus and morally clueless Thomas would beat them with a fire since chocolate is a modern invention the it is clearly immoral Take that cig outta your You and Jehoshaphat I think it is more Kuhscheiße werk Are we really that I thought the record was something like kuhscheibe This is a tac German Rome built in a day on the backs of the oppressed plebian class you may knock but I draw the line at knocking Beatrix If you see how genius her books you are a And  I think the record is but the comments are mostly no More like at least tNET has substance But does it have  And a higher word count did i knock MAAAAYBE the nothing has Form is a purely notional human construct hang insofar as tNET can be said to be man as opposed to eternally present dumpster it has form  Technically these are posts on a status The current record is Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Status Update DawarKazi set this world record with  My teen said we could go for the record for the most intelligent conversation on I told her not to push  Is death  And if Jesus and Mary have their where are questions my graders want to in  But is  Grade are harder than most And they flit all over the place with beyond the lunar Do you have to know What is you Like the de fide NOT the non de fide non NO ONE Nor never heaven is that We know next to zilch on all the great mysteries What is De Secundum The question what is faith is a response to petulance regarding is will there be any that seems like an intemperate response to a perfectly reasonable ye of little faith of little you still need to face your I like Beatrix Potter a Jeremy Fisher is my very But can we please stop saying things like who like author of which speaker is is a complete What possible good can that enim tempus cum sanam doctrinam non ad fabulas autem I think your position is compatible with the dignity of But I actually have time to argue now because making coffee then heading out the Samantha i am totally And it is the best You are anyone who likes Beatrix Potter is a jerk Once I am proved a a long line Daniel Lendman Is this about whether TOB is from hell Are the theologians just waking and in ToB is not from But I think Michael said that anyone who likes it is a But I find it hard to distinguish between Beatrix Potter and JPIIs bwahahahaha Who said anything about a which Pride and Prejudice TV adaptation is better or Hands Next I MADE ONE JOKE ABOUT POTTER and i get People cant take get a Lest I be thought to be advocating some kind of literary relativism I would definitely say that there are better and worse books and as with fine the taste for them needs to be An individual literary needs to be not mocked because it has not yet acquired entirely good So here is some Darwinian evidence for prehistoric Jewish Apparently they came from this Scientists Discover Dinosaur With Massive Schnoz Scientists are calling it the Jimmy Durante of I think what I just posted was Potter more And John I would be careful about stating that you got hammered right after throwing around hangover comments The Jimmy Durante of dinosaurs HAHAHAHA not a my Home roasted coffee beans John said Harry Potter is superior to JPII Edward you may send them to care of the Head feel Far Left Climate Geeks Leave Mountain of Trash For Cities to Deal With On tens of thousands of committed leftists I refuse to talk again about him who shall not be Oh Did you really just associate Saint John Paul the Great with Lord lips are Refuse to spew back shit about shit that came Beitia knew it He is a The Threadness forces all to speak eventually  just stoking the dumpster fire he who shall not be named HP your chiasmus please worry I too am against but I am trying to pick up the slack for the great black hole left by a certain person named after a bird of prey and a Franciscan hp is the father of just here to pad my stats in case a certain individual comes not relinquishing I need to up my game I have refered to HP as he who shall not be named so I forget others dont see the That is why I brought in tasteless  He who shall not be named was the guitarist for the So what was wrong with the Nazis This thread is stronger with this managed to avoid Law for so Did you hear the diary of Anne Frank was a do not for about the going to be part of my blog That is why Benedict XVI lifted Bishop  DO NOT for about the Fransisco Franco was just as bad Holy I just looked up  doesnt count when you raise Nazis to pad posts by gaining reference to not but definitely not an actual bishop of has no canonical standing in the He is a Because the evidence for their existence is so overwhelming that the only reason anyone would deny them is or some other morally repugnant But he is just kind of floating   I thought guys like that were a fabrication of the media to make conservatives look He too Samantha is no There are no really legitimate questions that can be raised regarding whether there was mass genocide under Nazi There may be legitimate questions as to how it was carried be one of I know cool to be a contrarian one but unless got a career as a Shoah researcher that I know ask stupid is my You Da kannst Du mich am Arsch wrote a song to those legitimate QED With regard to historical such claims are easier to be Its religious And there are plenty of legit questions without losing your head like Williamson or There are no legitimate questions to be asked regarding whether George Washington was the first president of the USA and that he lead the colonial about whether jews were not the questions i have in That is my only Like I said one might question and but The existence of death camps also cannot be legitimately I stated originally that metaphor was a FORM of You read literature like They just discovered another I saw that floating around Facebook a little while AND I raise it because we are going to repeat unless the hard questions  I was kidding and Robinson wasnt using She was being a Its called sneakosis i ABSOLUTELY Just because it taught de make deniers anything other than horrible ignorant little Peoples are It is already brewing in the Reeeeeaaally DEFINE you I have no idea what is going on here and I am running around today with little time but I have plenty of friends and acquaintances from varied backgrounds reading I If people want to reveal their extreme ignorance or disturbing their problem I and not Maybe this tNET can But if idiocy or prejudice countered over time I would shut things down at some how does blocking What is the connection between you and I or you and TAC Where have you ingested these What is a I am certain that I am But as Matthew points out we cant ask for a definition John are you also a I suppose you just have as to who did I think this is just more Either way He has to believe it at least a little bit to take things this I Look I made a joke to point play on  there are some for which educated people have no I want to get into this at but I am wondering whether ever been to Auschwitz or one of the other big Very little in history has been as well documented and attested as the Holocaust I am very serious about the It is And a matter of That is YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A DENIER and i have denied being Isak I think you are right and in Jews are fleeing and under I believe in the camps and That is not the gray But what is a denier which I am I stop reading to do some and this is where Ignore I want TNET shut I like I would rather be insulted about Jane As I really tell what John is but it seems to be And do you even go can we calm down a little This kind of nonsense is exactly where the worst online conversations TNET is better than so cut it  always had trouble with German thinkers Benedict XVI is the exception to my rule My initial posts were just to stir There are very very important questions about the Not asking causes backlash like neonazis and offbalance reactions like  Samantha has John blocked Or you can read him but he is sooo just  Well we use abortion and the Nazis to stir the little tNET But are not caused by laws against holocaust They are the reason Germany has laws against holocaust torn between my desire not to encourage and my desire not to let terrible false statements go  How did you guys get from Beatrix Potter to Hitler in mins or Let it go Samantha Just let it go   Discuss spanking Valid parenting tool or Walsh drives me nuts Spanking is a disciplinary not child Get a The I TOLD you guys about i tell But it has to come to this before anyone believes  I think he is just No not get into the spanking been on enough mommy blogs to learn to just keep my mouth shut on that also been told I should go to prison for pinching a year olds hand to get her to stop touching things she I prefer Hitler to Matt Walsh is a tough I call spanking child but I think potentially and And I say this as someone who was spanked a I read that Matt Walsh and not going because still mad at him about Matt Walsh is a Is he anyone I should care from whether he is good or no he is the worst sort of click bait for conservative leaning Catholics care moving the relationship  Can we get back to a real He is a staffer for buzz feed What did the theologians talk about last night after I went to Anything I posted I I thought it was interesting at the But I was half asleep and trying to feed a baby so who belief or disbelief in any private revelation should not deter anyone from I also think the brown scapular is commonly misunderstood a lot of the three days of darkness stuff seems nutty as all get Lots of stuff on just how great writings were or the theology talk last I That stuff just triggers all my I started ToB one That is all I have to contribute to that I hate writing newsletters for someone do mine for me should I tell them about the illicit Lingua Latina sneaking into the Of yeah there was about to be a good discussion of superstition vs praying the rosary is carrying a Rosary as a but not is my I am discovering that iOS has serious autocorrect I tell My mom made the mistake of listing the New St Baltimore catechism as one of her resources for the first communion class and she asked back was told they would the I have a better superstition is all that papist stuff that in the hahaha The Evangelical is super scriptural Come You think into that Whose The cool thing about being an is you can just reject the I have to tie myself up in knots defending I think any profound theological differences arise from the canonical apocryphal Is John trying to have a private fb conversation with any of you about holocaust Or am I the only lucky two the lucky one and rejecting the craziness rejecting It is unclear to me that Catholics have to accept much As Kenz laid out the dogmatic disagreements between Catholics and what I believe Escalante called Luther and are There are but fewer than one might the pious those are I suppose it depends on whether one thinks things like the Eucharist and prayer to the Saints constitute called me a and a so not holding my I personally like his for the most but got pretty thick I think the evangelical movement is good at its  I have sexy I rub my daily with coconut and I think right about the magisterial And an so the Eucharist the I too dabbled in Not in of  my is and from years of The disagreements are actually Joshua was only discussing a narrow set of topics  not just an Jehoshaphat do you see the chief doctrinal disagreements all deep rifts Escalante is going to go all ontological on us if we push been Pride and Prejudice so as to try to mend the hole in my Just finished Chapter and GOD WHAT MINCING CALL YOU THIS Oh and sola scriptura of course Much like Royal always been considered but I prefer sola scriptura leads to some pretty massive I was sort of onboard with Scripture Tradition for a when thinking of Tradition as the way the Church has interpreted but in practice Tradition seem to mean that the Church can define new doctrine and claim it was always part of as long as someone somewhere thought that seems an every Christian has to believe in a stronger or weaker form of The disagreement is how much to admit or not certainly not going to get into any apologetics here with my charming alumni I only wished to say that there are immense and important differences I believe in the weaker The much weaker of otherwise be And I appreciate I tend to think the divide while real is not as great as some make it to also not an expert on Protestants Round my neck of the growing it was either any damn thing they could wring out of the Bible themselves or not much of anything at Of if one looked at the beliefs of actual one could say the same things but they need to find it in the above is and is not intended to be an insult to my thoughtful Protestant friends all two of Caleb answered the one technical Thanks for the recommendation So three at the very off to the solve all the divides between Protestants and Catholics while The justification divide is definitely recent exercises in waffling And I should since you quote my use of that this is a term current among historians of early and it does not as most understandably take it to that Protestants regard Luther or Calvin as equivalent to the Papal It rather comes from the word and indicates those orthodox Protestants opposed to Radical who looked to the civil having the cura as the main implementer of and by exercises in I mean the which serious Catholics ought to find as appalling as I do you like an exercise in dishonest glossover I read it since high maybe it as great as I thought at the I understood the term to mean and was using it to differentiate those Protestants from some of the ones I was acquainted with as a crazy Southern revival  is saying that Protestantism needs to be understood as a set of political Christianity is a political theology  civitas Dei one or the ecumensim of the Catholic church for the last years has been at The Joint Declaration was Avery Cardinal Dulles heldit was an exercise in use X to mean and you use X to mean and we pretend we When TNET reaches it should be legally permitted to purchase and consume Joshua re the it seems to me that the basic idea was we were all very precise in the and centuries and that solve anything so just never use terms clearly again but chant to Taize tunes and hug and see what I remember my mom thought the JD was a sign that the churches were all going to unite under the and Jesus would soon come back and save the few elect who remained  As the churches are make a pretty sorry army for the Antichrist I imagine the army of Antichrist with pastel felt banners warfare why you support Polygamist Ninja Women Sneak Into Utah Home To Abduct They will use the edge of brightly colored construction paper to cut the other side into They will smother the opposition in wads of Blackwell So being discussed  I know how to put clip art on my Do I have Samantha Cohoe Clip art is inherently Sort of like Comic just have a little box on my newsletter with text that say is where I would have put clip art if it inherently Parents will love something A Generic College Since the beginning of flowery overgeneralization with at least one going to be like my crossover You spoiled So I come back from the dentist to find that solved all the problems between Catholics and their as an this is the doctrine of which takes up this message and explicates is more than just one part of Christian It stands in an essential relation to all truths of which are to be seen as internally related to each It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of When Catholics see themselves as bound by several they do not deny the special function of the message of Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator Tim through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing Sources for section be Michael We were waiting for you to get here to really sink our teeth into the subject You know the drill But be nice remember got fillings too Everybody brace yourselves about to have a brush with tNET destiny is this pun til you puke Did I miss that actually that takes place starting at  gumming up the discussion Bite me one more pun and removing your tNET chew please lighten Tim Cantu the wordplay has begun Can you tell just being tongue in cheek paying lip service just bridging the gap until something else happens the you just handle it been trying to extract meaning all along Dietrich es gehet dem Menschen wie dem Brahms Dietrich sings es gehet Is George rr book Is it The real question is it Has the thread  I think All that Hitler stuff made everyone just give up on it I actually think it was the The unphilosophical generally lack appreciation for the most philosophical form of nope the Bears game Ok well as long as it picks up by the time up for the am feeding If the pun is the lowest form of it is therefore the foundation of all So would the situation with ISIS be an acceptable time for a that it would even be a possibility which I know if it could be given training Oliver Wendell Holmes once said who make puns are like wanton boys that put coppers on the railroad They amuse themselves and other but their little trick may upset a freight train of conversation for the sake of a battered Holmes only ever came to such a simile because he never made a good pun in his when the passengers are being lulled to sleep by the drone of endless that dull freight train of conversation should be A truly good pun must be granted admission to the rarer excellencies of if conversation is to be lively and Punning is a talent despised only by those who have it A pun is merely two strings of thought twisted into one verbal The punster a of like You have to distinguish the A pun is an ambiguous usage of an equivocal word for humorous If the two meanings just happen to come together with the trite the pun is a relatively low form of If the two meanings are logically related for example Oscar can make a pun on any you make a pun upon the my dear is not a the pun has a much loftier place within the realm of GRR books are I care how many times he denies Any character in game of thrones who looks around at the world and concludes that the forces of good have a shot at winning is an and probably will die horribly on the next have you read If I bet you and I are the only ones on tNET who This is failing at satisfying my bedtime reading I guess have to go back to Anna Karenina not Are you putting baby Phil on her Most of the time all but two please anyone come after me with an axe for And her name is not In fact Alex would be mad if he knew I responded to you when you called her that just sharpening it In my defense it was recommended by a Nurse for dealing with her tummy issues I totally dig the It is the best of Greek tragedy outside of Russian Every character has virtues and the virtues make them successful in their endeavors and their vices are their It is nihilistic as far as nothing being but the main characters have not been introduced The book series is a chess game with two people playing the One of which even have a name The best part being the focus on politics and minimizing the fantasy Even the tv shows have been well the uncensored versions are too much for your you can find censored versions out The sad part is it is one of those books where you talk about it with the he say he considers himself the and he uses the on purpose for this How many do you have to have read to be I read the first one and thought it was But back to the praise of the Holmes is somewhat accurate in stating that those who make puns amuse Part of the delight in a well timed pun lies in the loud groans from everyone else within There is a great deal of satisfaction to be found in The specific wordplay of a pun seems to be ordered towards a certain kind of humor not the kind of humor for making others chuckle or for a pun is not a joke told for the entertainment of others a pun is made for the amusement of the man who is clever enough to capture two thoughts in one A pun ordered towards the pleasure that is to be found in the exercising of a quick And there is nothing to be found in this exercise of wit which needs To a and groan at requires only a rational But to make a that needs a beyond the mere capacity of able to see humorous relations and express them A pun demands a verbally nimble and ready mind well as the admittedly unavoidable lack of shame in cracking a witticism meant only for personal But the pun is not entirely selfish put two punsters give them a and they will find each other to be very funny gentlemen They will exercise their wits in tandem and share something in which everyone else is either or able but to the activity of and the great fun that is to be found in the form of humor not limited by the laws placed on popular In a world of egalitarian the spontaneous pun is the lone misfiring atom of The pun is the pun is the pun has a twinkle in its and the pun elicits groans because of the reluctance of witless men like Holmes to pay it tribute in And yet few will pass up the opportunity to crack a good however rarely it rises before them and it may be that the groans emitted by all those who hear a magnificent play on words are the result of subconscious admiration and why I think of  So did you hear the one about the fire at the It was IN Lauren as for the conversation failing your bedtime may I just say ask not what TNET can do for but what you can do for That a better example of antimetabole for Daniel I used to be addicted to But now how I got to be educated by upon accepting his honorary Where does the waitress IHOP And her  I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I find great about living in the flag is a big plus Shut both of one gets one loses mind by grandmother to my father on the occasion of his getting his second doctorate Edward your last objection was hardly thought old work was did Please tell me I read nor Annette but we both think that there is much good to the aside from the gratuitous sex and violence and all of the Identity Politics they Do you care for the like to know what you think of the written own I found his tone quite stark  I was hoping you would be talking theology Ask not what TNET can do for  I was wondering what you all thought of St Therese of Lisieux being named a Doctor of the now using the pun to hide rather than make things  Since many of you JPII being I was wondering about your bloated storytelling full of awkward prose from a clearly sadistic writer obsessed with There is nothing noble about the first I did also see the first season of the and while it was pretty to look I found the underlying nihilism overcame the Also Which are but not married to any of the women to whom belong the ubiquitous mammaries on that Reading one of seven and you get satisfaction of a complete How many other books do you read the first chapter of and have a sense of As for sadistic I guess that you think the same of considered whether the work was nihilist or perhaps something Wanted to know what you Meaning Martin enjoys inflicting the pain on his readers at the death of good men like Martin writes the story the way he does because pulling our hearts out and he gets off on clearly writing a tale of virtue and From virtue is but vice read my comment you consummate Who said anything about a sense of No idea why you mention Aristophanes there a comic and about as far away from Martin as apples from Martin is a dirty old man who know how to write anything Why do you say I love you too is not quite I know what to make of the show because it is the work of so many in addition to Knew have to read him before judging the why I wanted opinion on the words on the What of the beauty that is in some other Does he not know beauty or does he not write of the not saying wrong to write a sex scene but definitely a wrong WAY to write a sex and with his clumsy Can you show me anything beautiful in the first already made clear all read of the It seems quite realistic to assume the other entries are similar in form and books that get longer and longer are not the same thing as It seems to be more of the A slow walk through each level seeing the lives and consequences of Did you really just compare Game of Thrones to telling Tom Sundaram on So you like the not get caught in Analogies real Who is He may agree with Be it if so the reader is part of the book being lead by the author through seeing the consequences of There fore inferno Nobody loves in they all I think my main criticism is that his sentences are his prose Many were well Some better than But the Inferno is followed by Purgatorio and It the whole I read the rest of the books that are but aware of their Yes Neither is the first book It get any better in anticipated and how would you describe writing of the sex You said He understand History has a way of building upon is now better than what can we learn from a long tale of tragic What are the consequences of the consequences of the you for shadow three orders Of you can what can you do to change I think his work does more teaching and is more reachable to a broader audience than if it were written in I could find you some quotes Fitz What of language I thought he basically wanted to be the next That he was doing philology in a similar also what got Annette and me The incest and sick twisted stuff is more akin to the French influenced Arthurian ad ND therefore decidedly anti because of the hatred of the French influence on old go to any just say more about how Martin misses the mark when writing a sex HAHAHAHA this is Click with Awkward descriptions of genitals contained Things From The Game of Thrones Books Even More Haunting Than The The sex scenes are completely for one With the actual literally just going through the Someone is drunk with lust for someone an unintentionally hilarious word for male anatomy gets then naughty body parts get caressed or fondled and then the next Might as well be Harlequin romance When I read about Don Quixote reading so many crappy adventure stories that his brain dries I think of A Song of Ice and I had to look up the earlier today since I aware of what it was or its I see what you Can the man at I certainly criticize him on grounds of But maybe you should ask someone who has made it through more than just the first The point of bringing this up what I did it is a you like is the world different outside of a Christian however there is still Right and wrong still exists and just punishments are I can certainly agree with afraid the pun went over my I can say that beyond the first that bad people reform their lives and good people It was about sex and the evil Ooh just like Erection How thick of me not to see it right The evil eye is a pendant of a phallus worn by the Romans as a learned that today really the best aspect of the series is the ongoing discussion of and which virtues are held at what standard and whether man can reform their Perhaps we should give the TNET floor to the discussion of higher things at this  perhaps I shall give the second book a try some I promise Coming of age is obviously an underlining but at a further theme is theology within cultures of conflicting beliefs and what does it mean to You have bad priests that go through the motions and discover through miracles that God exists and that you need to reform your Bedtime an hour and a half ago for Think TNET will tuck me in if I ask Similar you have people owing a false religion and losing their faith in droves my looking back many words were to unintelligible Well not sure far you but if you it is worth As for the naughty they can be glossed like an HBO tv they get thrown I To attract a wider audience that may not spend the time to read Jane Austen or Followed along to the it was worth Thanks for sharing your I have more but I share them since it gives the plot and presupposes the final purpose of the I admit that a version would be but it is harder to find an edited book than a edited tv I read the first three I thought when I was younger that the style was best adapted to a then became really unsurprised to find out that Martin wrote for TV I tried to go back and the first but so much better out there to read them and while I enjoyed them for what they the only defense I will give of them is that they are loads better than that crap Rowling The sex scenes are embarrassing and are a manifestation of a larger really is a poor stylist generally of the middle books are written with a much better less clunky and than the first I believe the first one was the first book he had written in a long His strength is plotting and But this is genre and what one wants out of the are an interesting three dimensional world he and a good plot he mostly you jumping from the POV of one character to another really just means writing a TV a lot of modern novels suffer from multiple quick chapters that end in GoTs definitely has a bit of that going And in the final analysis I really defend them to someone who disliked I liked them enough to read the first read them I have a lot of feelings about which be back later to But wrong with multiple I think they can work if done right Joel I found Rowling much more enjoyable than Rowling is more GoT is basically cobbled together from episodes in Western European history with the names The parts I found most enjoyable are the parts that follow an historical event beat for best kind of a Martin but I think the other haters are giving the man his It genre but really good genre There is a reason Martin has gone Joel pointed out that he has great plotting and but he also writes great which the genre is usually lousy and then kills a dirty little secret is that read a shit ton of growing up and I turned off by writing so much as I caught up when the book came out and simply lost than anything by C S GRR Martin draws from but he also describes a believable world with more or less believable world is all wizards employed by the ministry of or just most of not terribly well fleshed Rowling is also much more Rowling is for be nice Nesbit and really people Martin is awful E Nesbit is certainly very different from Rowling E Nesbit and I argue with you there Escalante GRR Martin not being a great script the one great fantasy novel besides LOTR is Is fantasy or And I have a great deal of love for Gene actually pretty Martin is just a rehash of the dumber kind of D and D and owes a lot to D and D fiction I plus the all those ugh actually say that dialogue is one of GRR many He writes a good or at least an engaging This is the thread that never ends yes it goes on and on my friends is because technology in it is Dune was good but the only good Herbert White jesus and all the rest of the dune books were crap true the stereotypical If is fantasy so is Canticle for so another great fantasy novel beyond I also think that Gene Wolfe might arguably fit into the sure Maybe I mention the Twilight but once someone read one sentence aloud to and I thought it was a Possibly some of the worst writing ever I know why Joel keeps comparing Martin to Totally different kinds of I think Jonathan Strange and Norrell is incredibly but I love alternate Another one along that line is The Bartimaeus which is actually a very moral set of books for recent young adult YES YES To the Jonathan Strange and Norrell part of comment Did anyone else find reading Hunger like getting punched in the brain over and Shut Shut I have to prep defend Hunger uh oh about to go into schism with Samantha for the first time good written by a four year old the great difference between Martin and That HP is aimed at and that HP isnt soap opera They have almost nothing in all totally different You guys just even read YA fiction if you get off your high horses a little bit first this is a sad moment for me well good YA and bad Konigsburg Hunger Games It there is almost nothing well done about the HP unlikable not on a flimsy trite bad wooden Soap opera is a much better descriptor than I tip my hat to you sir the general dumbing down of lit is a not a defense of bad YA Teaching Will crush you all later EL Konigsburg and Arthur good Hunger BAD not great Feil I almost hesitate to say the HP series that great because definitely not the hill want to die and hate to be lumped in with the people who think going to turn into Aleister But look at this every influence and analogue cited is a far better and cobbled together many of the influences very The stitches totally show from the Harry Potter influences and analogues the free encyclopedia Writer Rowling cites several writers as influences Feil Not the worst books but no literary Good luck with that my sister wrote a YA It gets stars from good reads For both and why do you think HP became so immensely not I genuinely have a ready  misunderstood orphans escaping from drearydom to high quirky wise young growth into responsibility through not to like Feil I felt the same way about the Hunger Games that Michael Beitia did about I read the first one and had no interest in reading the other Joel HF gave me the rundown on the plot and it sound like I missed more this is also how I felt about Breaking I watched the first two seasons and did not feel a burning desire to keep Maybe But not the best TV show ever if I give a damn about finishing Feil Joel outing you as the only adult in our household who has read all three HG Feil Ryan Lack of exposure to HP isnt great but not the and I have a soft spot for it because it finally motivated my son to be game for Latin about which he had been hitherto grumpy definitely things like Wind in the Willows and Homer have fallen out out of pop From your view of HP as stitched together from greater it suggests a mostly unfulfilled appetite for good I wonder what books have been pulled along by the HP old or new And I want to go on record saying I liked the Divergent and loved the Defeat sort of vibe I also want to make clear that however stitched together HP may GoT from with breadth and specificity that approaches almost every strut of and major piece of world backstory has a direct The scale of GoT invites comparison with which really fair but causes me to judge GoT more harshly than I I did admire the Dorne arc in Feil read so have to take your word for but just for the in case it I accusing Rowling of Sorry I think you I just wanted to take a gratuitous shot at Martin again Feil no need to I just wanted to make sure we were all clear on My choice of phrase might have left that can we at least agree that we know the of all the breasts in something I say about a lot of other looking at you Steven R you are like a troubadour of Facebook posts to has the most quality of the last years of all the contemporary Ryan the history of literature stealing from life is and I have a problem with nor with literary allusion to other works of literature and Dante are exemplars of I will say that Rowling does nothing with her lifted elements and even clever with Le Tom School Nesbit acknowledged The Little White she really transform her sources so much as clumsily patch together second rate copies of I will say her taste of influences is pretty and to the extent that those other works are then HP all But a tepid defense at Game is better than the Hunger Games I although they exactly top shelf Comparing and contrasting the two is a good exercise that reveals But fantasy has hit a dead has The trick is finding a genre for Raymond The Long Goodbye transcends crime mystery How far did you get through The first few books were But it eventually fell apart completely into space I just meant the first Not the part where it is poligamy and space But you people need to be reading fiction from Shūsaku Endō Kazuo Ishiguro of the Mo Yan and the Chinese Wheel of time also started out but got harder and harder to read without the story developing I always like good The Left Hand of for by Ursula Le Guin has a protagonist on a planet of androgynous people it is likely taken as some kind of Progressive statement about but in reality I think it much more pro active and insightful than I disagree that fantasy has hit a dead I think most writers struggle with which is why so many but there are a few gems by Michael about what happens when aliens converge on a medieval village during the time of the plague now a fairly recent book any TACer would like find James list off some gems and near gems so we can read if we how about suffers from a whole hoard of misogynistic writing and puerile yo why most of it sucks Weiss Song of Ice and Fire is only the first in the is absolutely and a great relief to me after being continually sickened by fantasy poking along in a sad Tolkein Wheel of Time is a perfect example of the kind of fantasy that is almost a parody of Mistborn Trilogy and the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Star Bearer Trilogy by Patricia most books in any true but at the same time they suffer from the same And yet they were published and people read and of men look at porn so the So was Rosman This is the thread that never Weiss Key to writing standard come up with almost unpronounceable names that look exotic in Come up with an Unlikely Hero as A independent woman needs to be and she has to keep the hero at a distance for a long time before ultimately succumbing as his There should be prophecies that the characters all distrust but which the author takes very Probably a few secret clans or mysterious religious groups that the hero at one point will have ot demonstrating his fabulousness by reaching the Higher Levels in record There will be Good Guys and Bad Any women worth mentioning will be either young and or old so it matter what they look A few characters you like and but you never doubt that the protagonist will make it through because the author looooooves him and is so impressed with his little fantasy George Martin does none of this Did someone block No idea what Michael porn comment or the was by Heffernan comment are Jeff I commented that people read bad fiction and miler motioned other forms of written publications that are commonly autocorrxt My point is quality is not necessary for I block folk can you be blocked on your own Weiss Have any of you read Mary Doria In which Jesuits go on a missionary trip to an alien Very And not All I went back and reread my Realize that they were Sorry My main beef is with the laws against Holocaust I find a definition of what that related to hate Neither of these can I get apologies for misleading My main CONCERN with the holocaust is what is the meaning of how was it what were the reasons for because I really think it can happen also some fuzzy math Why the insistence on precisely six million honestly know the meaning of that lots of legit questions that have nothing to do with denying the I think Williamson was very imprudent and I agree with but I read up on what happened to I think anyone here strike sure the haters get behind him nor his approval of the of the and other But I have some sympathy for an interesting fellow if gone off the deep end in a few But I know him or any SSPX clergy personally and only met a few on one think he was mistreated by the SSPX to read about that and really really weird how the SSPX SO were kicked Matthew Peterson has the most quality of the last years of all the contemporary I get into it despite having lots of friends love And Jehoshaphat I gotta disagree about A priest and good friend encouraged my reading of that years popularity is In the whole phenomena of and fantasy is very Rebecca Bratten Weiss but now it is on my So do your think Martin is not or is better fantasy Dune is better fantasy than most Weiss good It uses the freedom permitted by the genre instead of assuming that the genre provides a Reading SOIAF rejuvenated my sense of what fantasy could so of course I now have my own fantasy plot in the after giving up years Weiss Dune is a for many not least that one is happier when able to make jokes about True about But I had probs with LIS the fantasy and genre which I loved as a youth are an interesting I agree that Dune should be I get behind the Dune love that friends Rebecca Bratten Weiss IS NOW trapped in the net of Anyone else read the Shannara books by Terry Brooks as a Those were if definitely derivative of I liked Terry Was long but enjoyed That makes like FIVE real life people I know that are caught up in tNET which is soon to take over all The more recent not so But the Heritage of Shannara series of four books was really especially the Druid of  You people also should be reading Richard accounts of small town life in Recognized by he draws from western NY state where I grew up from time to Fool was a great movie and the books are What does LIS stand And taking that up a read Marilynne Robinson but I think Samantha Cohoe told you that LIS like I said Thank you Thread for recommending Lucky Brilliantly prospect of reciting the title of the article It was a perfect in that it crystallized the niggling its funereal parade of the it threw upon Dixon had or begun to dozens like but his own seemed worse than most in its air of being convinced of its own usefulness and considering this strangely neglected it This what neglected This strangely what This strangely neglected His thinking all this without having defiled and set fire to the typescript only made him appear to himself as more of a hypocrite and Does anyone remember Lloyd Alexander fondly from BEST the my kids have all of them including weird ones about time travelling cats Pater I added Lucky Jim to my list several hundred comments Now have books to read from decisions decisions decisions tNET or read Michael what should I Read some Austen or just continue grilling and deriding her on Weiss What Would Virginia Woolf Never a good route to Weiss Stephen Dark Tower series is in many respects very good he got himself into a bit of a rut as a popular horror writer and had trouble dislodging himself at Nothing against horror but important never to be a slave to own I completely missed being mentioned on tNET comment Why do you guys talk about all the fun things when got stuff to conspiracy Michael what is your Who is she published How do you all know which comment number each post is that was a People still seem able to for when the round numbers are coming  I understand the complaint that Harry Potter is Who Everything is Rowling took elements from everything and made an awesome story out of Anyone holding up wind in the and school as better examples of lit know what lit should be aiming Oh look yet another Christ Should be good Why Why want to borrow from the greatest story in human I could tell If you see that dislikes it simply it is but it is a clumsy are you really saying that in the and School as good as Have any of you read Pooh He has a hilarious essay by a critic who sees Eeyore as the Christ figure every story has to has he of Winnie Pooh Wind in the Willows is so The Last Good Place of Lily Odilon have to get to her Murder Lily wild child from are you Kids read it because to be is not great fiction   ok what about the examples I have EL Konigsburg and Arthur Pooh to top of reading Jehoshaphat Escalante are very different but both very I read Wind in the Willows time after time as a those are Kids love W in my kids love Wind in the Willows read enough of either to really Escalante I bet they love Harry Potter though Because it is so much more fun you got me there We use that word in my he who shall not be  but discuss the truly great ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN Joel So is Fifty Shades of I bet Christopher West is already working on his book on the Theology of the Body and Fifty Shades of Grey that HP is as bad as I really loved Great series as a Has anyone else read or is it a Wind in the Willows is the good shiz If HP was fun because it then you would have a But imperialist self rawks I read them all and loved them when I was I think I enjoyed them much when I looked back when I was Michael Great Brain Treasure Island is the shiz Kidnapped is better Hunger Games is good because a gripping which makes up for the stylistic Mockingjay was freely admit that what about I like the Not so big on Treasure Dunno Hinton Far better than Harry Potter series is Ayn Harry Potter series Start Ayn Harry Potter and the Stone Ayn Rand presents Harry Potter and the those are hilarious Kids should read Edgar drunk ass Poe more these days There any Ayn Rand fans on are I always like yelling at people about Ayn I thought the writing got better as HG went on Matthew I think that can give kids nightmares My kids get them from much Ayn Rand sucks Maybe but the story fell Rand is a repetitive and redundant reiterative but I felt less like I was being punched in the brain At this point I think Ayn Rand is overly slammed people are into silence when the more interesting question is so Matthew you do so know Rumble Fish The etc I Matthew Rand is only popular because quoting it makes teenage boys feel smart Michael how can you be so sensitive when you admit to having read a ton of you built up a But Atlas reading that I felt I did not tear up the book and burn it page by page in just retribution only because it was a library book under someone no there cannot be too much vituperation for her incessant I have no dog in the fight never really been interested in I think I tried once and put it But it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to it Because leftish fiction that sucks is so pervasive and usual we even notice and lots of smarties read and cite I was intrigued by something Jeff said ages ago about Game of something about two gods who been revealed yet fighting it Assuming one of them is who is the other I read Rand on an mile road I should have closed it Putting it down is the right I get angry because people actually read it and folllow it and think great just get Her soul is Love criticism Sister is reading a of fantasy mean one see the defects I was totally an Objectivist a week when I was after I read the or virtue of But grown adults still imbibe that Like Matthew lots of other leftist books that are almost as Austen introduced the virtue of but unless you really like being punched in the having read shit of fantasy it is an argument that bad style make you feel like being punched in the Probably because as I get older I have less tolerance for I read stuff that punches me in the I wanna punch something And that gets me into How come Umberto Eco gets no Matthew point bears it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to Why is This is the sort of thing that I ask about lots of books things like Dune and HP and even Very interesting and fruitful on my radar and I almost read But just been soooo disappointed with so many I read better Still might look at Which one do you I have all of Pendulum is a personal but you might enjoy Baudalino Sorry at a chiropractor but baited to answer your added to reading list the best thing is you can usually get them for on amazon in hard back because no one ever finishes I look for those especially for kids not like tNET Escalante Westmark is not the best at a great story but the evil revolutionaries are portrayed as the good The First Two Lives of was my favorite I but it also had the whole liberation bit which was that quote from Metropolitan you know the one about Austen seen it in a Also Samantha as a child I LOVED the Wind in the How can you say Toad gowing to jail is Badger collecting clubs and as to Ayn the philosophy is and be argued It is purely to make the feel good about I even liked Tom Schooldays as a although I admit to finding the beginning and the end parts The middle is intensely exciting are two novels that can change a bookish The Lord of the Rings and Atlas One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable leading to an emotionally socially crippled unable to deal with the real The of involves John Rogers With regard to Wind in the Willows is have any read the Red Wall I found on the We have the entire Red Wall corpus in the I liked Redwall for a but then got for have to read a book to have an I read I prefer good literary way you get both the ideas and the Sure sign of inferior is that one gets too old for the Flying Dutchman books got some from the a bit sad not to be in the club on this but I was utterly bored by Wind in the I remember it that but I remember how boring I found have to read a book to have an I read I prefer good literary way you get both the ideas and the his downfall was giving in to reading classic case of I think I was eight or Most kids think McDonalds is This mean one should allow children to eat junk Have the Chronicals of Prydain been They were my favorite for a long I brought those up maybe Wind in the Willows is the kale smoothie of The Rat looked very and stood in deep thought for a minute or Then he the strapped a belt round his shoved a brace of pistols into took up a stout cudgel that stood in a corner of the and set off for the Wild Wood at a smart It was already getting towards dusk when he reached the first fringe of trees and plunged without hesitation into the looking anxiously on either side for any sign of his Here and there wicked little faces popped out of but vanished immediately at sight of the valorous his and the great ugly cudgel in his and the whistling and which he had heard quite plainly on his first died away and and all was very He made his way manfully through the length of the to its furthest forsaking all he set himself to traverse laboriously working over the whole and all the time calling out Where are old in case there are any weirdos is a stinging insult has anyone else read The Iron Ring by probably my favorite of all his said the is my The weasels will trust entirely to their excellent And that is where the passage comes That very useful tunnel leads right up under the next to the that squeaky board in the said I understand shall creep out quietly into the cried the our pistols and swords and shouted the rush in upon said the whack and whack and whack cried the Toad in running round and round the and jumping over the yup and by I people who claim to like kale I ran around and jumped onto chairs on hearing the above passage read was that meant to not be the bit about Toad running around in ecstasy is Not So is the imagine of small Pater Edmund jumping on chairs I think the difference is that little boys find swords and sticks endlessly fascinating and little girls sexist Prydain has been mentioned but Jehoshaphat Escalante prefers Samantha I also like WitW but read The Swiss Family Robinson about I know some other people find so I totally trust my own called and already copped to Thank I was starting to feel very I think they might have chocolate in the recreation Hmm the Thread or chocolate with my if I ever get my YA book none of you are allowed to read even if you use my walk in the snow going in the but Not even have to read a book to have an I read I prefer good literary way you get both the ideas and the Or should I the That is the INPUT here Do you have to read it all to have an informed one limit himself to a few good books to read again and Like toad running around and jumping on my if I ever publish my book I am going to link it on here and I expect everyone to give me five star reviews to help drive up my My great uncle just read Brideshead Revisited over and over again in the last years of his expecting people to give you a five star what A really good book can be read again and again to much better good than many lesser I will give five star reviews to any Thread authors who publish but the have to mention the Thread in the I would read the first part of Brideshead over and I think the second half bears a lot of read all the things especially in write to me and ask me to recommend course of Distrust a course of People who really care for books read all of There is no other Lang I think a good selection of all the things is good Like the first couple pages of No need to read it seems like a lot of people on here would love to participate in a conspiracy and this seems harmless enough to fulfill their and to help me out as a all the things only that but I COULD not read CAN NOT It was torture Beitia Sick one a good theory Auf ein baldiges time to go get some I might do that too as long as everyone agrees not to read want anyone to feel that they were being punched in the Pater that is wrong wrong I like Vives course of reading to a young man beginning on I think the early books are most After taken a good course a good maybe ok to READ ALL But not And many THE BEST THINKERS WRITERS settled on just one or two books The tNET is like getting punched in the so you do like masochist QED John called it a I finished Auto De Fe by Elias Canetti Feil although I certainly think some books appeal more to or more to I never thought of The Wind in the Willows as one of those I liked it a lot as a Feil still Feil Also although it makes for a good Joel HF is way more likely to let his children eat than read bad it was a The Wind in the Willows was my all time favorite book growing I read it so many times I even made up my own melodies for the poems in I used to love the I think my disaffection dovetailed with my disaffection for HER who will no longer be I Whit we all praising him not long ago on Everybody should take the Amazon poll so that they make more episodes of The The Wind in the Willows is absolutely I still stand by this as a life my young there is nothing absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in the Redwall series is some of the best literature I have never gotten tired of that series and still return to favorite scenes and events in my Martin the Warrior was my favorite I have to admit that they got a mild repetitive the more Brian Jacques God rest his You I met Jacques when I was about years My Dad took me to a book and I waited in line with my heart When I got up to the he shook my hand and said in his delightful Scouser accent your name I He looked me up and down for a and I will never forget what he said with a cold Isak drew his sword and lopped off the head of the Then he signed two of my I still have He looked in my soul and gave me a Summed up my essence at age God bless I miss him so Weiss I LOVED Wind in the Willows when I was very But I also eat kale in large and not in fine if you cook it with Weiss Note to if you leave the never ending you will miss the discussion on Ayn and the opportunity to talk about being a teenage and how it does NOT get one Weiss I sautee it in butter with scads of that  I get any dates that one week when I was Those were strange the Brian Brian Go read Redwall Pater Edmund That was a good I feel it deserves more recognition than a couple of TNET recognizes likes or Why is your name spelled like named after Isak all so glad you she but Isak Dinesen was her pen been meaning to ask you that for a but I figured I should wait until after I said something to balance out the Did it Have any of you read her short story I want to hold a beer seminar soon on Haha I have an unusual not rude to ask about it in my opinion Is Cohoe a Scottish No one The Cohoe who first emigrated this way was from but they think the name may have originated Also deceptively attractive and ultimately insidious series His Dark Philip Irish Awesome my maiden name is not Still awesome I was gobsmacked when I finished His Dark SUCH a good word I think Philip Pullman might actually be Of all the places in the the one I want to visit most is All of rather go to I think you might be About Pullman that  I was so I gotten any of the NAILED IT TNET CAN DRINK NOW like to buy tNET a whiskey That was my first legal drink in a Okay time to teach some rhetoric See you later I got But I have an army of kids that monitor the situation so that I can pounce on the  am a tell Michael  Here I am back when I was just a weee little Monty Python The Holy Grail The killer bunny Here is the infamous rabbit That Palindromic is better than Just Guess just have to shoot for or closer purer I just lost what I typed for The title actually fits the song of ice and The story is of politics and The main gods being a diafied ice god and fire each controlling the seasons of summer and seasons can last years or The stark family starts as the most but through excesses in their the patents die and their children become the personified in the of and personified in Only through renouncing vice and sin are any characters What hooks the reader is the slow train wreck of best intentions that devolve into At this point you could almost make a Christ allegory or Homeric with the onion knight as the and Reek as I anticipate that the family will but will destroy themselves as the pawns of the ice and fire I could type more but thumbs on cell phones are not good mediums for onion knight and Is that one or two so is there a god of the white walkers who is the ice And who do you see getting by renouncing vice and And say His redemption arc is a big con Martin is trying to play on us The hound joins a Jamie is partially redeemed but I agree he will fall And the and reek are two if I For those that Yes the white walkers are from the ice God but are not it That the white walkers even exist is one of the best subplots since they do not have an active role everything is perspective based and they are barely the Is that a or did I miss a major plot Missed And the It is a but the textual evidence is extremely strong George RR had all but admitted it in I Deaths that occur off stage in A Song of Ice and Fire are always The challenge is you never get a clear Theon Greyjoy is now just called Reek until much In he tv series it is very immediately clear that he is Even on stage deaths are suspect Out of nowhere you have undead and even some on stage deaths are though usually there is at least an actual perhaps not Or Unless they are I like she has too many flaws and set on way too high of a pedestal with a right of take Austen over  I probably take One writes of social ethics on the small the other on social ethics of a large I prefer global politics I not really Best literature for I vote The Velveteen Winnie the Or Alice in The Little Here are a few gems to Unintentionally Disturbing Moments From Books Touch the Do it PATRICK SMITH still not convinced by the virtue narrative the regrets wishing gone ahead and raped Sansa when he had the This thread makes me wonder if there is an inverse proportion between a dislike of Austen and his And tyrion turn to just consistently less horrible than everyone else Joel that one went right over my Men who love Austen do not do so in proportion to but those who dislike You happen to be extremely short would you Isak Just a wild Just a little I am quite but you mean to tell me you had no previous knowledge of Sandor said that only to taunt Arya to kill him and end his It As for tyre he is on a slow path to with his obvious vice of which he is trying to Is John Ruplinger also What made you wonder about an inverse If at the very least a correlation could be established that would be truly How much do I like Akram Khan Gnosis Wells Theatre April new solo created with Gauri Sharma Tripathi and AKRAM TEASER GNOSIS teaser de de Arte du juillet akram denis I I did read all the books over the course of about two so it blurs together a bit But when does tyrion ever try to overcome his After married he lives a chaste life his wife hates And I felt very conned by these redemption arcs in which true moral monsters and are suddenly so sympathetic because they kind of refrain from doing horrible things for a He an angel But he makes a legit go at living a virtuous life And seeking a student he is the philosopher Jaime POV chapters spend all this time reassuring us that he had really good reasons for killing the mad whereas throwing bran out the window is never addressed not so sure Tyrion is really getting better throughout the And Sandor feels bad for letting the kingsguard mistreat but totally mild compared to chopping up he butchers boy and dropping him home in a sack In the last tyrion spends all his time drunk and not exactly a step toward virtue better than what he was doing the last time we saw to talk about this book spoiling Trying to work on the vice of Said every man not reading all this But not watching it I forget the but I remember in one sermon Father Buckley said this holy woman was even tempted by impure thoughts on her all If I was on a two week vacation I might take all the books with me but as things stand I start with Martin because if it hooks me I WILL immoderately ingest them all ASAP Like an ANIMAL If animals could and the desire for story was and hmm When do we circle back to Like a rational As Andrew Seeley points Aristotle never calls human beings rational Who does What is the source of the When does it become  And does it just take off from And why does he introduce it and how its a bizarre And why whenever I hear his name do I think of this cartoon jingle music behind someone saying in chipper the Great point in but then the story over And the Stark family is known for dispensing But as said you want to give it away in the event people despise to read it Porphyry does it in the in attempting to fill out his tree so as to give full evidence for the though he actually subdivides rational animal into mortal and I think it might be Boethius who runs amok with the but my late Medieval is a little Porphyry is the source for it at but it is naturally put on Aristotle almost without Clearly it was a scholastic but it would be interesting to examine more I remember it from what we read of Boethius but been a long time since read John Deely has written about the issue piecemeal here and there think the longest treatment would be either in The Four Ages or Medieval Philosophy but usually in the context of his arguing for his own proposed definition of the human Cooked bacon eating animal consensual mating animal smoking animal The laziest animal all suffice ashamed of its own body animal According to a commercial I saw repeatedly on Sunday while chugging beer after sitting on my watching the Chiefs on my koalas sleep hours a Now What other animal wants privacy when excreting tNetting a To be tNetting is to transcend animality completely and to be subsumed up into something wholistic and But this is disputed among the One potential problem with is how bifurcated it For the whole might be greater than or substantially different than the dirty joke telling animal tNetting sounds an awful lot like some sort of Teilhard would be  Could there be another animal said either that or tNetting is a sign of inherent You mean rational why It almost seems likely to me at this An corporeal critter who has possession of an intellect would by definition be a To interact with such a creature would help us understand what So many potential novels going through my Makes me think of the Game to logon echon Ti esti Many series get into The trads will want to slay the aliens as You can count on alien hating die for alpha mad alien hating animal Trads are a different It makes me think of novels Like that French guy who wrote all those science fiction Teilhard de something or thank Brian always wanted to write one wherein Adam and Eve being locked out of the garden means being relegated to What does it mean to be exiled from Flaming sword which turned every which way guarding see that around in the Middle East or anywhere on Read I at TAC tongue in that whales must also be rational in Genesis two words are one rendered usually and the other God created the heavens and the God the animals on God created God made the But it also says God created the Well the rational soul requires a special act of and so rational animals cannot be simply we see that they are unfallen servants of od in QED The argument was not accepted strangely enough Aristotle does call man a social animal and a political It seems to me while he personally use the term rational that is implied even How do we the society that is an ant or a wolf from society as said of Or for that being political as opposed to merely being united and having a rule amongst a Reason enters into the definition of these He does call him the animal having reason in the Logon I want to say book imitative animal in Of to be social and political implies But what reason is is a tricky as is it enters into the notion of political It seems more obvious and clear to say we are social or Reason enters into the definition of human beings as to be But to say the political animal is more sure and readily The question is what we mean when we say Discursive reason is one and it is a mystery in itself when we really bear down on what it is and But reason seems to mean a hell of a lot of Without some kind of there is no reason of the sort we Or wait but Disputes on every answer what reason but be a spoiler for my en arche en ho John in principio erat Verbum  Do you have an abstract or Proposal is in the submitting a draft at the end of this Maybe we need Scott back to give us his Politics But he does speak differently of man in divers Logos means speech If aliens came to Earth Peterson would make felt banners with them and teach them angels This banner over me is total domination Major I have the technology to arrive your world not an but a Californian from It is more like the we heard of their popo I have no clue what typing about Lol Ok drop is this a Star Trek next generation WTH is Napoleon Dynamite I understand a word you just said Pray like the aliens would But work like ALIENS Robot Sentry Guns Deleted Scenes Delete ALIENS This scene features would you at least teach them how high to raise a pseudopod for the Show them how to give the tentacle of nonpseudopod raising rational animals But I think the Aliens in Aliens are rational depends on what they burst out I saw Alien Resurrection in the theater with what they burst damn dangling participle Ferrier The new translations of and others change that ought to keep the thread Ferrier May I Joe Sachs Do Who is joe Ferrier My old friend from and a fine He wrote an excellent commentary on Kathleen Kathleen Help a sister out I love to irritate my colleagues with that Ferrier Amazon Search Online shopping from a great selection at Books Thank you Though I have to give the nod to the Bartlett Collins translation of the Nicomachean Ethics over the former is less awkward and more approachable for use it in class and Ferrier I use I think it was on your so I use Sachs for in but difficult enough getting students to buy one translation of what I and also getting the book store to actually place my Richard Delahide Ferrier both as in the Bartlett and Collins along with Ferrier yes Good to I wait to have occasion to teach the The thread is awesome Ferrier I am doing it now it is so rich and subtle Where are you now the Ferrier Finishing book Bed Ferrier Bless Kidding simple child that I Ferrier k bridging book and a lot to but I used this book as an which summarily covers a lot of the pinpointing the areas where Aristotle gives more nuanced and sophisticated reasoning about the the and less so on the because also doing Aquinas on and I think Thank you for the blessings dr f To spend a whole semester teaching the I hope your students love this Richard Delahide got their interest so and Ferrier tall Ferrier the way keeps offering a and then changing The big tease about the idea of the Ferrier But most of the way happiness seems to depend on the Divine and that go there I love how Aristotle naturally ticks good students Ferrier Bad students think he lays it all and even proves it They are objects of pity Ferrier have I kept the thread going for a If I have not lived in I was able to start my into to Am government at CMC this year with selections on democracy from the And I loved how a few students called out the back and forth dialectic of the he says here that the many added but over here he says the many added We are all extremely fortunate extremely blessed to have had such teachers as Richard Delahide It takes many years to fully realize such things how rare some people I believe what I took for granted as an  I hated Junior philosophy blame the tutor but my But my daughter is happy in your class Dr Richard Delahide Ferrier One of the best arguments I ever had on campus was with Peter Schofield over whether or not Aristotle had pulled the wool over all our eyes concerning the idea of the I believe we eventually after some hours and the coming and going of many temporary that he was indeed a giant tease and that that was perfectly I regret that I never had Ferrier as a I remember fondly the many spontaneous conversations on the Ferrier I had to quit smoking And you have my prayers for your good Ferrier I do regret the way tobacco leads to good talk not for me To me English is a little too like which I think it is  your Brian Jacques story is Ferrier I think has the Greek There was a time when a new Redwall story coming out was a great event to One of them formative When the kid in front of me in line told Jacques his name was he just quipped and signed his I got a I felt But surely Sachs is good for getting people I would likely never assign one of his translations only in a but his translations are always essential for All time favorite use of the word was in the brilliant video on the Tory at about will like this Richard Delahide Ferrier and Matthew Conservative party Are we all in this John Harris John Harris gauges the reaction to JOHN HARRIS I agree that Sachs is good for but if one is only going to read one translation then Sachs is too By the Richard Delahide October will be Harry There will be an open house at his home in Claremont that day on by when you it is an If you cannot he would certainly enjoy hearing from Send him a birthday card with some or give him a Harry is no longer as physically strong as he once but his mind is as sharp as Address and phone available upon Pass the info on to others as it would be nice to fill his house and and make the day especially Ferrier I think I have done my part for Would you all please pray for me for my kidney and also for Jeremy and many who are not account of the definition of motion is the best the translation of the key terminology does most definitely help someone get at the obfuscated by the nice and neat Scholastic And it is in the line of takes it from who took it from Joseph particularly in his masterful bit of scholarship The Doctrine of Being in the Aristotelian is also influential on his Many prayers For you and for Jeremy If I could just write a review of a new Ethics translation for the NYT when in my Book Review Nicomachean Ethics A new translation of addresses BY HARRY JAFFA need to watch the In prayer with much love and respect for Richard Ferrier Is dissertation in the collected a good a place as any to ask the Ferrier May I say I am not I am just trying to follow the very tough I am not at all sure that it conforms to my it I was too lazy to go look on my bookshelves because they are very out of order right called something like Philosophy of Sir Arthur the night time time I just hope RDF run junior philosophy like it was ruined for me go through this line by  I apologize for dropping the ball on I have been That gobsmacked video is or the I am just going to throw out a controversial position I hold to see if I can help things you to  I said Not I still hold that marriage is not properly speaking a It is only so Why is there a mob of women waving pitchforks and torches outside my  I feel like baiting aspiring mommy bloggers is the derivative vocation of home birth is some of mine were born at no biggie I think Catholics get way too hung up on have to dig up the research I but even those about to enter the priesthood have a until they are actually called during the I am And not trying to The worst part was after my daughter was I had to empty out the inflatable pool such was my conclusion a few years Sooooo I agree with not just more to do But vocational discernment because such a means for psychological and emotional this is because most people misunderstand Considering how fast things went with my I think I have an option not to have a home birth next I never understand when unmarried people have a vocation to the married is calling me to How on earth could one distinguish between and natural Does a woman have a vocation to marry men in I think right Vocation as call can only be named after the The only vocation that is so is the universal call to the perfect fulfillment of which is religious This is why Aquinas can say that all are called to the religious Looks like everyone agrees with On the other hand I raise truly controversial Just call me troll On Love God and Do What You Avoiding to Our Lady of I thought get more I got a lot of flak over the same claim when I was at I thought have hordes of women descending on Maybe I need to work on my Daniel back make the same points somewhat more   But I also sang sweet Man Faced Ox Progeny The Longest Time Short clip of Billy Longest sung impromptu by barbershop quartet in Trolling Feil Has anyone else noticed that The Artist Formerly Known as Peregine is now trolling on the TAC Alum Facebook  But I forgot we had  Trolling the PB is trolling the Alumni page right now in fact I just realized I never I am now a maythis ease your I think that marriage can absolutely be called a As mentioned we are all called to but each life we choose is accompanied by different A duties are different from a but both aspire to be closer to To discern vocation is to discern what duties you are must capable of fulfilling and to live a life succeeding in those duties chosen is to live your call to Thank you for your courage Daniel is correct more or the modern Christian usage of for any or state in life is a Lutheran usage because we rejected still do the idea that is the perfection of a life of all licit modes of human life are for Modern Catholics have adopted our language without being very clear what they mean by position is the traditional I pretty much agree with what you are I would only point out that that is a derivative use of the I meant Though I agree with you I would argue that or is not necessarily vocational because not every craft or occupation is necessarily that would just beg the and restate the fact of the difference I thought the question broached was whether marriage is if so is it vocational in the narrower Catholic or only in the broader is too Is it really him or an in the traditional Catholic marriage is vocational because but not in the plenary sense that religious life is I dont think formerly known as Vocation is strictly a call to leave ALL for the kingdom of I think the single life could be called yet it still can be vocational for Would it not follow then that vocation and sacrament at least to some separate Marriage is a Religious life is It is a call from God does not people to Concupiscence often leaves that calling card as Lendman noted Good when was marriage first called a vocation among John I think marriage is secondarily vocational in RC thought nowadays at And Jesus called but Peter remained so I think your definition quite works only very very recently that people call the single life a and it seems like a cop out unless using analogously to the greater glory of then it is so watered down in meaning that it becomes meaningless Tonsure is a sacrament in the and this is probably the more consistent position I do laundry the greater glory of I swear for the greater glory of I feel called to smoke a is that my vocation for the next I am YES I only asked your question in different When did we start watering down probably the when everything So back to marriage being vocational as it comes with its own duties within the general call to I know whether that is a watered down but concede it is a broader you may lack the the gift of discernment of just not that i dont smoke Incense in the temple of the Holy Marriage is a vocation in a derivative Being single is in no way a analogous or UP I think that one could say that it is I am the oracle of RC Thanks Daniel I though that the single life could referred to as vocational when a single person uses the freedom of not being committed to either spouse or church in order to devote himself to others in ways that neither priest or married person Going back to duties within the call to  The problem is not a It is not a dig on singles to say they have a vocation like a it seems unsatisfying to entirely rule out single life as being without I think it can be if a consecrated I think the problem with understanding vocational in any way other than sacramental opens up a whole hoard of It is an in between and imperfect There can be no state of life without some sort of much better than getting left out of the kingdom of heaven Our dissatisfaction is an effect of living in an egalitarian But i want the right to have a We are not all equal in every Vocation does not pertain to the permissive will of it is also the of life that everyone is born there is no change in state from infancy onward being single did you say all were called to the religious life not thinking as an thinking in terms of I think there is a place for the unique positioning of a single person within the call to Someone who purposely remains single lives a life of devotion different from that of a married person or a and takes on different spiritual Does that not suggest room for some other category of Daniel of those who vow to remain One enter an  Of I think a only exists properly for priests after they have been at But I find any of the stuff I wrote on and completely forgotten my It is a feel good watered down Everyone is as good as We are all just as good as each No one feels left how i see But striving for holiness is by its nature elitist just as the religious vocation is by its nature single vows are Just not a religious I agree with all you say above except calling it Joel agrees with me too that religious life has always been considered a except tonsure was not considered sacramental the I am by no means arguing from a place for and I think I agree with you in saying that only ordained priests devote themselves to religious life in the true their lives are the proper definition of However God does call us and based on our path in life we serve him in different I concede a broader use of but not that it is necessarily watered not budging on watered holy sense vocation private fb posting on tNET maybe it is bad analogy sense To be I do not like using the word vocation in this The religious life the is denigrated and Most have no idea what it is nor its importance for the Church and the good of the  Joel one does not need to be in an order to be a narrow sense sense table bad analogy hour is much better than pun til you puke hour I once was talking to John Nieto about this question at his house as we were drinking fine smoking having just finished a couple bottles of wine and a nice and he pointed around his house and think this is a   they used to call diocesan priests that may still be the proper name for But I was thinking of something like Knox who vowed to be celibate as a young he Catholic at the He in an order or even a had he lived out his life been be willing to call that a derivative I am lucky to attend mass and receive direction at a So i see its effects first I became aware most especially of them when reading the life of Sister Daniel a Jesuit has lived in nicer digs while enjoying fine scotch and I think the scriptures are single Vocation does seem to be something strictly since a priest could be Priesthood is not by nature a Strictly Priesthood is a vocation a vocation it is strange because being a bishop is a A vocation is a call by God to to I also read the lives of the early Jesuits at They lived poverty while enjoying the ocassional The traditional Jesuit was the greatest ascetic without appearing to be Anthony Marie autobiography gives good insight into Jesuit In support of Daniel Theology of vocations we had lots on this in the might as well keep adding Some eminently sensible stuff in agreement with you about calling it a And I think the regular single life is a But in my mind the priesthood in a vocation in the full your reason for saying it is I guess the point trying to make is that there is still room for use of the term as a discernment of duties toward the goal of committing life to growing closer to Perhaps a lesser meaning than applying the term to priests who are the ones truly committed to religious but not in the meaningless way that a secular person might call a as just I do or how I is what I would call watered also be interested to know thoughts about the priesthood and the religious They are usually listed as different yet often of religious are Is this a strange crossover between states of been called to a vacation THANKS for the I think it answers a lot of questions and dispels The vocation of a  how about vocational called to fix the plumbing see link for what a priestly vocation Makes sense of your question i Many vocation centers are in but nothing can hide the shit vocation holy sanctification of I do enjoy the distinction in diocesan priests vs religious But it would seem that both are proper As for the that is not the colloquial would that be a second or third class is not by nature a it the case that no one is made a priest unless chosen by the to seems to be what is definitive of a the Church picks you to serve her through a public act in the case of see link religious picked by God priestly vocation picked by Church Those The way God picks us in this life is through His Ummm they do differ because of free will  I just follow the They do differ can you improperly live your life if you have a religious vocation but get Basically the Church can ordain priests Baby John I see what you see in that all I see there is a denial that the priestly vocation is an interior Which I am not I think that once you can be sure that being married is what God wants you to do probably what he always wanted you to I just think silly to think had a religious vocation but decided to get   Lahitton was denounced to the Holy Office for his but the Holy response endorsed his here it book of the eminent man Joseph Canon Vocation is in no way to be but rather is is deserving of outstanding praise in the following that no one has a right to ordination antecedently to the free choice of him by the that the condition to whcih the Ordinary should and which is called a priestly by no means at all events necessarily and as a general in some interior aspiration of the subject or in impulses of the Holy Spirit to receive the on the nothing more is required in the candidate that he may rightly be invited by the than a right intention together with a fitness based on those gifts of nature and and confirmed by that goodness of life and sufficiency of that afford a that he would be able rightly to fulfill the priestly duties and maintain its obligations AAS I should note even in the religious whether one makes final vows is not up to the aspiring in the for he must be unanimously by the members of the The link points out that a priestly vocation is derivatively so choosing through the Church OR hierarchy choosing by permissive Religious vocation is properly so called and discerned with I see any evidence for such a distinction in the And I think the decision to become a religious is a matter of own one is chosen for the religious life by being allowed to make final vows through becoming a consecrated virgin with the permission of the As far as I can the cases are perfectly Edward your above notion on vocation amounts to saying i am called to what i am because that is what i there is no vocation to the married because the married life is part of the course of There is a vocation to the life because Church authorities must choose you to follow those is certainly a Edward Edward that is a tempting and one I held for a long My with the position is that it ends up confusing the notion of vocation as traditionally And makes a muddle of things that ought to be  Your absurd statement was that a person could not miss their As far as I can the classic notion of vocation is a call by God to Such a call is with the religious The is not necessarily with a life of the episcopate is not necessarily with a life of What do you mean by For a priest can be In the typically a priest is compelled to effectively live a life of But that is not necessary to his That just means that he called to a certain I Vocation is a call to a perfect living out of the evangelical There also was a common practice of people becoming religious after their children could support Thus why Aquinas can say that everyone is called to the religious according to your own not everyone is called to the that makes my saying that ordinarily everyone has a I guess grant insofar as vocation names a call to but that seems to stand to vocation in the proper sense like common to man and brute stands to proper to not All other states of life that are derivatively called vocation are ordered to the state of perfection as to their and Priesthood should terminate in a perfect living out of the evangelical either in this life or the I think using and indiscriminately as opposed to specific technical language is The entire above discussing seems to be just nailing down We speak of a vocation to the religious life in an analogous sense because here we only am I called to live the state of but God has given me the grace to enter into the state of further support of your recall John tears at the thought that he would not be able to perfect himself as a secular I seem to recall that he even attempted to flee his parish to a monastery on a few Its all making sense I think many of the Church fathers felt similarly to Vianney even about being wanted to be and had to be forced to accept the I think that proves It seems like a call to a particular perfection in this life is with the priesthood and similarly with the actual religious life and so both of those lives are vocations in the strict The fact that certain such as celibacy or poverty or attach to certain states make the call to either state any less a call to Merely The main point is that Catholics tie themselves up in knots People think they have to their as if they were Samuel and God was going to directly tell them their aim in the middle of the Daniel  you are going backwards How conceded that the universal call to holiness is a but always held that only such per is That is vocation per I see any evidence for Edward is confusing me You mean besides the arguments given and the tradition and history of the I see an argument given that decides the question either probably not familiar enough with the tradition of the If only we had learned at college from the full datum of magesterium and I suppose one could just look at who is doing the One is called to holiness through by There is no external call to With my wife called me to marriage until death before In the Bishop calls a man to service until death before In the case of marriage and priesthood certainly one would expect God to be influencing and gracing the But the decisions and calls in the this make sense who hears you hears I deny that one can distinguish the call of the Church and the call of Especially when dealing with things narrowly inside the sacramental  when a Bishop ordains a man to the that man is infallibly a good and worthy At least in this when the bishop he ordains as a minister of I am not denying when a Bishop ordains a man to the that man is infallibly a good and worthy Well a person being baptized infallibly a and worthy especially in adult Or is the decision to a matter of hopefully guided by the Holy Ah the But the Church leaders CAN make mistakes in whom they elect for Pius X many I did not talk about those who are called to I spoke of the call of holiness that comes to us through late to comment The call to holiness that happens in Baptism is an interior call to perfection by God Just as the Church can call people improperly to Baptism but that seems to be an extension of the use of the word The interior call by God is an Especially given the contents of proper call be said per Just as everything is said per prius of the word is imposed by us and that from which it is imposed is more I am starting to think that you really hold the position you are representing as everything is said per prius of secundum dicendum est quantum ad rem significatam per per prius dicuntur de Deo quam de quia a Deo huiusmodi perfectiones in creaturas Sed quantum ad impositionem per prius a nobis imponuntur quas prius Unde et modum significandi habent qui competit ut supra dictum According to the imposition of the name first refers to the life and by to the universal call to According to the thing the universal call to holiness is Big news I have been excommunicated by Pope Peregrine and now join the ranks of those in exile from the rays of his benevolent  that is what you get for leaving the confines of back to reading Scotus criticizing Divine Illumination I need some terms are you thinking of as synonymous with do you hold that called to the religious refers to those who join holy more to ordained or are you saying that call to religious and the call to are one and the Yeah define your just a jerk who wants to look like the smartest guy in the I your holy orders are not religious defunded in Worms in religious is to live the evangelical Perfection consists essentially in the Evangelical counsels are only particularly suitable importat respectum ad Igitur intellectus potest cognoscere intentionem licet non cognoscat ipsam veritatem et et per ipsum quod verum potest cognosci antequam cognoscatur implies relation to an the intellect can know the intention of although it does not know its truth and that which is true can be known before the truth is legged rational animal with wings that hordes Vocation has basically three vocation to the Christian life universal and vocation to the Evangelical counsels which is universal but not obligatory why the are called vocation to a particular ecclesiastical office such as bishop of Chicago which is not universal at but particular to a particular person who is Dom Dellatte is really good on Delatte on Vocation a section from LVIII of Dom Paul Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict link linker strikes again So call to to religious specific Is this slowing down Thanks since Lendman do gonna say  Do not think for Caleb first blog Go read it so we can fight about More to argue WRONG Did you read it What we live annoyed that my link only slowed down because people are reading the stuff we The terms seem clear so not much more to so charmingly Caleb works with Elenore Give her my hated a paper I once did at a or at least my answer to a question on what conference and what was the substance of your answer on reading the linked items because procrastinating about studtying for class a lovely person she is Her husband knew right away where name was We knew her at Notre Dame she even remembered and corrected me more in sorrow than in It was a conference on Creation Order organized by the Calvinists in if she really knows who you then I will give her your That will be think on whom to trust AND trust no one read the typesetting is off OCD allow it But The site is run by a grad just scroll your browser Michael typesetting is off Cant read Ok because i achieved already The question was about the violence of This was the substance of my did she hate about  has raised his head in the TAC Alumni Guess what the topic of contention Scott Aquinas College Alumni In his Goyette seems spot on in regards to view of Paul on he seems to present only a very narrow view See More Lecture Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking The idea that physical evil might be in anyway you ever seen an animal  She literally wrote the book on why physical evil is And she address animal  maybe not any but she objected to my defending claim that materiality implies a certain necessity to coming to be and passing She thought my position I subsequently modified my position a I have to go sleep now just give her my love and remind her of how sad my Marmonidean positions made Delatte on Vocation a section from LVIII of Dom Paul Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict Good night bonne nuit See Translation tNET is the and it runs down the center on my Eine kleine Nachtmusik KV Karl Wiener Philharmoniker are you really OCD or are you just trying to annoy But how do you know whom to now the alumni group is not be trusted a good of planning a paper on that as But in the community with the most expertise on a given subject is the first place to my books at home are in Dewey decimal You tell me legit good thing not allowed in the alumni but Perescott and he blocked me although had no dealing since he banished tNET into the outer How does one know if one has been type a name into the facebook search if it comes not I feel a little left easy to I posted to ignore him but people are always sucked into the Trust gets tougher once the experts are you know cave and I kind of miss the but I see him at any rate the experts could be but the question is whether you are in an epistemic position to judge rightly if they are or Chances I see Which is weird in the evening version of tnet when the flatlanders all i have the though  gnosis episteme his diatribes are long and if it on the road to you would be tempted to engage a Sample of PB in the alumni let me just complete my thoughts before I get kicked I am a TAC I thank God I was unable to graduate from TAC because I am a mere poet with low But this question I am and it is a very simple and I have asked this question it seems this question would have a very simple but no answer has been If TAC does not present the full datum of sacred theology in its study of sacred but says it engages its students in sacred this is a bit like a who only studies saying that biology is the study of A perfectly reasonable answer to this question would be to say that TAC certainly recognizes that Tradition and Scripture are the datum of the study of sacred And we certainly encourage this But we present a mere for lack of and we encourage our students to study it all but in the time we we have decided to present the model of Thomas for he is indeed a He is the angelic But this however reasonable and is not the response TAC seems to give to this TAC seems to give a quite different It presents this limited model as a representation of the and presents it as the best and exemplar of sacred theology and approach to the Catholic As a many of its especially more seem highly confused about what the Catholic Faith They view it as something that begins and ends according to the form of the TAC with leading up to the study of Saint But this approach is not the beginning of nor is it what Faith On the the beginning of Faith is assent to grace and is more than an act of the will over the It is not the will the intellect TAC alum have described this approach as doctrine crammed down Assent is a reasonable act of the an act of to the principles of But TAC does not view it like it Instead it teaches that seeking is an act of acquiring the liberal arts so we can examine the datum of theology in a In addition to this which is contrary to how the Catholic world views seeking reasonable assent TAC also teaches in its Charter that the entirety of Western Academia is a tyranny of No wonder TAC graduates find it difficult to obtain Samuel A the infallible interpretation of Scripture is the stuff of sacred Dogma is necessary for sacred You can present Dogma in a catechetical or you can present Dogma in a theological My question how many Dogmas does TAC present in a theological Dangers of thinking for yourself and the need for trusting the right I think the blog post could be used as a excellent justification for See Translation I sense that The Thread has slowed down as though even It cannot attain Perpetual have you overcome your OCD enough to actually read the I came home from and moved my chair in front of the computer to the short yes I can see cults misappropriating the arguments to support but since they have actual claims to epistemic the arguments actually apply to them Daniel I that you associated having a state in life with making a This is For public vows are taken by those and those who enter what were formerly called religious as opposed to brothers and secular priests do not take vows since the distinguished congregation from orders purely on whether vows were rather than the and you can never leave them many congregations petitioned to take By your most priests and bishops in a of since they do not take though this no one chooses into what sort of group they are I assume most children growing up trust their social So I suppose this seems like reducing belief to an accident of But then if I trust my my political and the what could possibly go and it seems readily apparent that vocation implies a call to not already given in but as it were or even at the expense of Celibacy The religious life or the priesthood the vocation to the priesthood within the religious life is fundamentally different than the secular I might very loosely call my occupation my as something superadditive to the general inclination of But a vocation does imply a state of a call to be this sort of not merely to do this And it would be most proper to restrict the term to the order of even in His I can speak of Him calling me to say Marriage would not itself be a It is wrong to too distinguish sacramental from natural Any valid marriage between two Christians is also would we speak of two Hindus having a marital How about a Catholic who marries a that is not a but it is a real if he becomes does it suddenly become a So either we call marriage a vocation and use vocation for any even not connected with or we restrict it to the and have weird things like being married and that not being a vocation and then it becoming a But there is in sacramental there is a further of raising children for the kingdom of and I suppose one can have a special inclination to and that would be in the order of But it be qua but qua sacramental So I guess I agree with Lendman other than his point about making be back Solo epistemic authority is sounding creepier and How do I get on that Any weird rituals Samantha is name from the story of the Red Cross  By the way blocking usually work the other way The troll gets people to block the troll does not and They like watching It beats Where were you being excommunicated by his Isak This is too wonderful not to Linked below is a rewriting of Harry Potter as a Christian story so that your children do not become retitled School of Prayer and Hogwarts School of Prayer and Miracles Chapter a harry potter fanfic FanFiction My name is Grace new to this whole fanfiction but encountered a problem that I believe this is the solution My little ones have been asking to read the Harry Potter and of course happy for them to be but I Joel I could tell because some folks were responding to invisible comments by him on Jeffrey Before that he was being a jerk on my profile picture haha how I figured it out someone responded to him on status on The  Caleb advocating blind faith in whoever you happen to grow up Merely growing up under a certain authority actually give you reason to have trust in Quite the reverse can be A bad authority will give you lots of reasons for distrust over This was certainly the case for going drinkin and all I mean by is a person or community who have a lot of expertise or wisdom on a certain Austen et all cool Terrific I wonder how The College feels about I wonder how TNET feels about The sounded oddly mean it that But I bring myself to delete a because that seems to be against the very nature of Thinking for yourself and not learning from others is a terrible Thanks for sharing At least three tutors have shown up on tNET that I know This is probably the most effective advertisement in TAC Which is why The College no doubt This is worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars in Facebook Boo hoo ha ha The best discussions have always been out of class Not if you have Mwahahahahahahahahahaha tNET has given me something I was An internet time suck I feel is a waste of the TNET is easier to justify spending time well years from now being initial partipants of tNET will be CV brownie Future thesis one can retrieve the beginnings of the mythical troll named discoveries on new possible origins of stories to tell the The purpose of the Internet is collegiate discussion and national All other pursuits are when I mentioned vow I was not speaking I believe even Aquinas holds that there is a vow implied for priests when they are Alan critique of reminds me of Matthew critique of does not distinguish enough between the principles that he takes from and his own conclusions that he draws from those but which Fimister thinks St Thomas himself would not John you just made me split my sides laughing Holistic Analysis of Dogma and Recursive Conversation in the Context of the Legendary Never Ending TNET seems to have slowed down significantly in the last going on now that over I am very interested in the data Edward Langley seems able to I think be satisfied when we have pushed Perescrotch Weinervitch out of the top All good things must come to an end I I pushed him out of the top so up to the rest of you to stat padding and done drinking now so up for weinburg is waxing magisterial o n Just also questioning beats I see He must of unblocked you and blocked also giving Bond a lecture on The I still wonder about something about that still sitting I understand in fields of like the blog post used for that trust in the authority is usually easy to But it is a big step to go from learning how to weld to matters of and I think where the argument breaks Typical arrogant promoting The trying to talk Caleb into making a brief cameo before he heads off to a What about the vaccination lemme get my tinfoil hang my brief cameo I do think that the qualifications for moral expertise or wisdom are much higher than metalworking why Socrates is happy to concede that craftsmen have expertise but keeps looking and failing to find someone with true wisdom or moral In the more that the knowledge or expertise in question involves a comprehensive view of reality in or human ends in the harder it is to truly know or to find a  because I see two ways that this could go But that just points to the value that finding a person or community with wisdom would Technical experts can only help you with the means to the ends that they assume or that you give them building a metal Someone with practical wisdom could help you order your life and someone with theoretical wisdom could help you with understanding reality as a by what epistemic authority do we partly we start with some default sources to trust like our parents and our community so it partly resolves to an accident of But the kind of strong epistemic authority interested in is something we do need to come to recognize using our cognitive faculties But this require being experts Sometimes we can recognize expertise even without expertise Watching how someone responds to their opponents and presents their case can be quite informative as to what and how they know guessing the people active on tNET have lots of views by now on the expertise or lack thereof of the various interlocutors I am genuinely surprised by what Caleb is more that he is arguing for be interesting to see where he takes Or watching Top Chef or other similar you can often tell good even if no I was going to ask about Church authority I think there are two points I want to often we are in fact relying on even when we take ourselves to be making up our own minds sometimes we are better off relying on authority instead of making our own minds up At the same there are examples of the but of Jeter appears to be an excellent and won many awards for his defensive More recent analysis suggests that he is in fact below despite his apparent But I am not saying that is the default view we should have of there are a lot of experts I trust or rely on in any strong sense apparent grace within feet of his original someone like Betrand who wrote very well and is may appear to have real But does he in fact or were most of his view there are definitely problems with us tracking things that seem to be related but impressively diving for or speaking very Though I think we just look at the disputed cases in evaluating trust or measuring Jeter really was a better defensive shortstop than all but or so other players all cases regard to Othello speaks  I think the ethical or metaphysical cases are tricky precisely because there is real fundamental disagreement there about first principles I think I but having flashbacks of whom should I I meant or so other shortstops in a given year now I trust you Though the more qualified version of what saying definitely applies to ethics or metaphysics better off thinking through these issues with the great philosophers of the past and present than trying to come up with your own metaphysical or ethical system Caleb probably low re since lots of defensive shortstops play because they But a player in the mlb is still top quality if you expand the population he is compared In that a very TAC point Also a very Catholic my I know enough about shortstops to give the but if the comparison class is everyone played baseball or all human then obviously a defensive per year sounds see that before I but it is definitely the more qualified when talking about great Someone has to determine and the arguments still need to be thought through It certainly could be one question that I had in an earlier version of the post was whether morality or religion are exceptions because each of us is directly responsible for our views and behavior in these spheres I think something importantly different in these but still not sure if or whether it rules out authority or trust in the relevant senses On the Bertrand Russell say that benefit from reading him if defending and expressing his position remove my unliking your blog post with these relevant sure you were worried about But someone needs to fix the Off center is awful It does seem like something wrong though about just reading one philosopher and sticking with some kind of need to see the case for different first principles before no layout expert and not sure I know but maybe something could be done been but I have to go to Indiana now If one believes I but many nominal Catholics and Christians do that faith and the right faith at that belief in the not just is necessary for trust will be necessary for just about not only as regards the content of faith but also who teaches it to Off to a conference at Purdue in honour of Richard a prominent philosopher of religion Hoosiers can be I think you could definitely take the framework working with in that direction my problem is how one determines that Fides illuminat I do trust Pius X and Leo They employ both faith and I guess the other thing is that I wrote the blogpost directed towards the sort of people I encounter these days in the secular If I was writing it to address the sort of errors TACers are inclined to fall into it would probably be a little This is Now going to read this But only because it has been validated by the authority of tNET as worth the TACers fall into Caleb can take over for the The problem with TAC is that everyone scatters across the country immediately after This is also just a problem with the instability of modern American life It is particularly acute for I would How is one to develop Aristotelian friendships these new YEAH Caleb is probably the least of anyone who has ever made even a passing comment on He lacks all the trollish Joel but that was the raison d etre of the tNET smokers lounge Canadian so not ALL trollish qualities are Joel has put his finger on exactly what has made tNET great samantha i kid of course Thus further demonstrating that I am NOT the least well if we take Scottegrine to be the form of all that is and not merely an then his Canadianness must be part of the of I would argue that Scottegrine is just an exceedingly perfect and not the actual form Thus Canadianness is not necessarily an inherently trollish attribute Canadianness is the not the Caleb is barely a Canadian anymore anyway it is makes a it saying what is most provoking no matter the that and being  To be a Canadian does not necessarily constitute being a To be a troll to Americans is more the matter at the accidental interaction between the two cultural natures exhibits the appearance of trolling though in reality it is just  No just I can see that you are Should I type in all caps to make it easier to trolls are from northern hence trolls originate in Finland and in the new in Thomas talk about this in OLEG was named and fated to What star were you born Northern lights burned at my arrival and all the stars flashed their secret morse round my ancestral bridge to welcome this troll to the Canadians are probably the least people on this In famous for just wanting to get Peregrind Grendal excepted Is he  If as official Canadian ambassador to I revoke his dual I believe he renounced his tNET citizenship quite a while ago in the most vehement of terms How many people has that cretin Not I was only blocked by the Peregrinne incarnation of the But because I not once had the patience to engage all alone and His attack on professor Bond is pissing me going to have to quote some of his Bond is probably least troll like member of tNET Which I still have with the This Jeffrey Bond In the opening pages of where an Athenian Stranger is conversing about politics with a Cretan and a we find something truly See More Peregrendal on Joshua Kenz as Stomachosus different I disagree with most of what this blogger is except perhaps his confession of I I have forsaken tNET a little to argue on that Bond It is a very interesting Seems like pretty mild exercise of his so Not enough people were taking his bait on the tac alumni Peregrendal instructing the ignorant Bond on all things Jeffrey Do you have a degree in political Hobbes held to the idea that man desires peace by his internal and that this desire was one of the strongest proclivities of but that government is a device required and contracted to secure this This is not too far off from who positied that the state wages war to secure for peace is equated with justice and negotiated through the common which is the rational principle of at all levels of human A close look shows these political thinkers were all and alike in many Peremagistrate pontifex maximus coming will grant that Hobbes was prone to rhetorical even in his representations of the authors of but the tragedy in America today is not religious but the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral Democracy in America is open to Catholic Catholics are simply not open to American The danger of course is that Peregrine is starting again down that path that leads to burning kind of like incredible hulk that One minute he is singing odes about medieval the next he transforms into a raging insatiable green IRNONIC too that the Cretan could follow the reasoning of the Athenian but Peregrind cannot follow Cretan Pregrendal A list of close look shows these political thinkers were all men Peregrendal realized after close analysis they were and alike in many they were all men upon not But Hobbes inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral Still stinging from tNET two weeks in America is open to Catholic Catholics are simply not open to American NOT Madison nor de Tocqueville really he did think America was going to become But I have fundamental differences with the de That would be a long argument to show where he got Catholicism AND WHAT American Catholics is he talking good a link to a previous discussion on page it actually goes back to July when Bond first entered the FB and in the era of All great Matthew Peterson I love the smell of Federalist in the He blocked I cannot fire across his This saddens me I miss the way you handled the Beitia troll The essence of the PereGrendal for inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential sad that we apparently miss our troll so much that lesser examples of his trolling from another If the PereGrendal is blocked by all will he cease to My link to Peterson above is a great I think the troll appeared on The July discussion in which Bond defeats but Matthew Peterson refuses to submit Matthew Peterson A sure sign of a corrupt lots of Senators in the mix for the The reason only have been elected President thus By virtue of their See More the only reason on A couple of Bond Peterson duels I am only the because like knows like troll troll troll trainer Pater great link on I think anything you or Joshua Kenz say refutes Daniel You are disagreeing over minutia Calling back the troll is the equivalent of Madison multiplying It may increase but at what what I calling him I was trying to read If you see like listening to someone else talk on the telephone I consider myself a veteran a troll but never has anyone seen the likes of the Perescott Scott only makes a couple comments on it actually and Bond responds to two I really not sure what Peterson is saying is very controversial It makes more sense not reading the Peregrendal Fortunately TNET can outlast any BUT do you follow what Bond is that there are That Aristotle recognizes that the main disjoint is between the rich and the That Madison recognized I get I have followed every of their debates for two and it seems to me that Matthew is not understanding Secret Bridge Guarded the San Bay Bridge for Years After the San Bay Bridge EDW LYNCH I have a million personal reasons to disagree with for a while I made it a specific goal of But in this case I just see it Speaking of I think I must recall all my back to You should abandon this heterodox from and return to true so am I the tNET I think you fail to see I recommend the July I do fail to see because I see  Bond has been consistantly arguing the same Go Even if Bond is his argument is that you grasp Bond is a And there is another lesser thread as I read the whole but Jeffrey point makes sense to least the one regarding the still quite unclear on what Matthew Peterson actually thinks He keeps talking about practical Get your head back in the That the more I read there the better I do see where Peterson is coming BUT Matthew Peterson is by far the majority Bond is a minority but very important INDEED I think he is Michael is it that Matthew Peterson says that you agree I find argument And maybe my American or further my Basque cultural but anything remotely smacking of monarchy makes me vomit I listed some of them Joel above points out a major BOND is arguing NOT about the practical but about the The argument directly about monarchy is It is whether faction should be an ordering principle of any not exactly sure what are in if not practical right Hahaha did Peregrine actually ask Jeffrey Bond if he has a degree in political as it he the Doctor democracy per se is not Bond never argues I what is our we aim at generally vs what is it we can achieve hic et as soon as someone critiques the American usually a save the hiding somewhere near by that cracked me  Was Plato a Is faction the ordering principle of our My point is that no one thought so at the My argument very I will say that my considerations of the last few years have led me to become a In there is nothing wrong with I do think that democracy has a tougher road from day and this is from PRACTICAL So many practical problems with But we just got the super heavy blinders Is there a state where and controlling faction an ordering There is no state without because all faction means is a group of people who want to violate others rights or trounce all over the common good en route to what they like The question is what you do about  classical anarchism I believe the state of grace is without State of Grace Series Created by Brenda Hollis With Mae Save All Madison does is argue that by creating a bit larger government over the whole of the states you will incorporate more factions and this will make a majority FACTION less likely because it will be harder form and implement its sinister THE WHOLE POINT IS TO STOP MAJORITY or to stop the many who have ultimate power from misusing I just learned that Tocqueville never refers to despite refering to scores of other issues of the Is this how no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty eventually into intentional FACTION BY DEFINITION IT IS But political life in countries consists in large part in arguing about who is and a Madison has faith that we have enough virtue in a extended government plus we will have more virtuous rulers in a extended PLUS all the little factions will help kill and reveal a developing majority faction for what it is and thereby kill it or prevent it from acting on its evil For crying out What I am fighting against is a anger at where things ended up read back into the forgive my ignorance of secondary but what exactly is interpretation of All I really know is that Beard thought the founders were motivated by Jeffrey Bond come back to tNET and argue with Matthew Peterson within its Jeffrey Bond will be safe here from Peregrottish A last salvo and then I have go back to teaching this stuff for a Tocqueville mention it but he does talk about the principle a I Federalist and are simply arguments defending the Constitution as a LARGE republic directly against the Brutus in his first Brutus arguing that a SMALL REPUBLIC is better because in a large republic the public good is sacrificed to a views and in large republic you have to deal with more ambitious men of large fortunes among other Hamilton shoots Brutus down re his use of Montesquieu in Federalist Hamilton points out that what Montesquieu we might are talking about is already smaller than the So should we split up into a million polises Surely creating leagues adn federations of smaller republics into larger bodies some kind of and even Montesquieu talks about such a thing as potentially I have pointed out to Madison in fact studied ancient examples of larger popular governments made up of smaller popular ones for months leading into the then Madison gets excited in a letter to Hamilton about arguments against them finally a serious worth jumps in with Fed which is based on some thoughts been working out since before the Constitutional convention trying to figure out all the ways we can counter the central flaw of the rule of the many majority In other not only does Madison think that the large republic can be but been thinking about it as a solution to the problem of increasingly radical and unstable democracies in the Fed is mentioned in second I but it become a big deal until a vaguely modern Beard in the early part of the century tries to give a since disproven economic take on the founding in which the Constitution was all about the rich ruling over the poor Beard seizes on fed as proof of this amoral This leads to some great booksy types in the reading fed a bit more broadly as MODERNISM They read Fed and Fed and it is all very simple they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present This is the school from which Bond ingested his But Joel if you want to understand Fed you need to read these documents I link to precursors to and consider it in context of developing thought on the Matthew Peterson Jim Madison and the Desideratum of Human Governance Since been talking about sovereignty Jim and the of I and Continue Reading I look forward to reading Thanks the important part is just the snippets from those three precursors to Fed by madison not my gloss tNET is proof that factions are essential For without tNET would not OH HAPPY FAULT OH HAPPY whole point is to stop majority But the means to stopping it is a sort of balance of faction analogous to the balance of power system that perfidious Albion and her progeny have been promoting since time The point of Jeffrey quote from the Laws is that the way to overcome strife is not through balance of but through through subordinating everything to one forget to use a bucket Michael I did read that Matthew And saw the same thing that Jeffrey but quote at the being away from the To Pater this sounds like saying something like Virtue is what should stop So as parish I tell anyone at the village bar to tell me or his wife or otherwise prevent the village alcoholic from entering or in any way try to dissuade him to Even avoiding the occasion of sin is no way to try to prevent for it does not rely on any sort of accountability software on the internet that would reveal to multiple people what any one person is looking at is off For it rely on does that The entire Constitution is trying to wrest power over commerce away from the states and give it to more virtuous leaders in a less democratic Madison depends upon more virtuous and better leaders and representatives who will be protected from popular whims and will by the structure of the and who will be elected in such a way and live and breathe in a structure that will look after the good of the whole the Union of all the states combined rather than the partial interests of Pater and argument on July is that in attempting to prevent majority Madison created a faction that necessarily becomes intolerant of those who adhere to and publicly proclaim the he mentions in a few places that the fact that the republic will be LARGER means that it will have more factions within and this will make it harder for any one faction to become a majority since it will be opposed and outed to the majority of people by other factions and other Madison CREATING any simply creating a larger government over more territory and albeit with more limited I do agree that the balancing out thing can sometimes have a good MADISON DOES CREATE A NEW SUPERMAJORITY QED Matthew Peterson A sure sign of a corrupt lots of Senators in the mix for the The reason only have been elected President thus By virtue of their See More by Subordinating everything to one principle in practice means that no one has any recourse if that principle turns out to be corrupt But Fed on its own quite Madison wanted to give similar and passions via education and of course all kinds of freedoms were restricted then if people thought they were too Government can and does today and especially then sought to go after the causes of faction within The point in is simply that government cannot ultimately eradicate faction within us it make us perfect it must deal with us as we Like any sort of moral So one of the auxiliary precautions and helps sees to help keep majority rule on the right path is that in a larger republic it will be harder for a majority faction to form and if it does form is according to him and it will have a harder time acting on its evil AS OPPOSED TO A SMALL in which majority faction will run amuck and no one can stop it very The confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the I threw up in my mouth a little Matthew are the one who was challenging FB to provide a law of the Pol Pot that either educated or lead people to Samantha that depends on what the principle and how the subordination is So what principle would you The bell rings so just leave the Thread with a nice The The American Founders and the Aristotelian Tradition Part Joel yes I have this crazy tic in which I like to hear examples to help understand airy fairy especially when it comes in the form of a critique of things that actually I love how this question is often mocked this PRACTICAL stuff has no bearing on my I mocking at But you were giving examples of Law leading to the common good I think were and I was wondering if I was crazy or if you had questioned But Jeffrey puts together a coherent argument that has yet to be refuted you just have to trust tNET to provide a as tNET is expert in all And being I am the moral authority of tNET which is the epistemic authority of all call me pragmatic but a lot of be purged from a rational discourse on Joel I was simply asking for I think that this airy fairy talk in our circles fails to understand that even for law lead to virtue in a direct In the if we are to believe the CONDEMNS but FAILS to ultimately make us But even for for the law ought to indirectly try to make the people themselves That the bond of unity and virtue will come from people doing not from The laws do not directly CAUSE They work Of there is probably no greater example of an attempt to create explicitly Christian popular government than the puritans in early As Tocqueville points they had what almost anyone would describe as draconian laws yet they were through and confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the an unfair rendering of a lot of critique of the American founding utopian in not at all I am in no way you want heaven on admit it John heaven in Heaven realplace not I think that laws can and should be ordered to the common but I think people get sloppy about how this can and ought to happen as well as a bit high and mighty about what the common good consists in for a political I also think that Bond seizes on texts in which Madison does flirt with the kind of thing Bond calls out on but that in overall context even in those texts it simply true to say that Madison or the rest created a regime based on faction or think there was an objective That mean what they created was or obviate other a fairer take on Bond And Bond also nowhere has argified for anything He is trying to point out what he sees as the logical effect of a principle Madison to I see the same things that Bond I am a of kinda to argue against that a best of all possible worlds for me to go I feel like I have been defined and I have no more to But to underline the Bond Peterson debate has been the best thing on tNET at times reaches that level of but is how I feIt as a poor maIe in a IiberaI arts schooI with maIe to femaIe Maybe I shouId Iook up that Given the near impossibility of loading back to the original conversation for those who followed from the will the comments be published in book form or if there needs be a you may or may not be the original link The thread come join us Richard Arndt and James McPherson tNET is dying just when I need it Stay with me leave me all It has played dead It always How is it possible for that which cannot end to worry TNET merely This would be more enjoyable with beer as beckons you can always pass the time by scrolling up and reading the pages that pater Oh ye of little This is the cthulhu It is the Facebook worm which dieth Peregrinch tried to kill Matthew Peterson tried to kill but it liveth already read all of the links Pater Edmund to give up tNET or or will tNET let me four hours is a personal I be at Mass this lying obviously Do you think the browser would even support it if you tried to load the whole if out already feel like the last one at the long after the host has gone to bed I think when tNET is I might as well quit facebook Beitia will never leave as long as i have Our host ditched us long Trolling him on other threads just seems But if I cynically mock his heartwarming enthusiasm for the and who and He got me into quit Quit sooner but if it does i hope Edward can extract a searchable There is some treasure amidst the trolls and fiery And great troll fighting Samantha the party will gain a and and fourth TNET is by definition never Hypothetical if you were donating a bunch of money to would you donate it with specification as to how the money should be or What is this donating of which you Isak Imagine somebody was giving you a whole lot of money specifically for the purpose of giving it to a you cannot keep any of this money for If it was a lot donate it to the the the fund that just earns interest that most colleges use to give scholarships and the name of the the fund The endowment I endowment is that the Just guessing and trying to help May I suggest the human for I have always been a proponent of the catholic They have an endowment split it with you if you can come up a valid tax And probably a couple banking accounts Yes they but they need to raise so much each year that increased so much with the that nothing ever makes it into there unless because paying for each year is obviously a They really ought to put of total donations into the fund Money always appears when you really need it but if you earmark funds they  Assuming Joel follow through on our embezzlement of course Samantha thank you for calling me back to the Eternal nice to be But think for a minute that I ever left the Great It has never been far from my Were it not for the fact that I have to return to the shadows of the cave each morning to make a I would dwell forever in the intelligible realm illuminated by the I believe you mean our legit and legal  And in my I have found my argument against Madison quite ably defended by John Ruplinger and Pater as well as Feil I have often fantasized about having such a large sum of money that I could stipulate that they had to change their rolling admissions probably a few other John mostly just asserted how boss you and how much you owned party fund aka teachers good rumors caused a diocese wide ban on spirits in San Antonio Catholic you raise an intriguing I been called since I was in grade I did link to said boss arguments I think quite enough to start attaching strings though Rolling admission is so bad the youth say I know because I have a sister who is a embezlment the American the city of commerce enters the thread Totally legal and legit charity John Are you against legal and legit the cave enters the thread of enlightenment and The battle of tenebrae et We know who wins Did I say that your beneficence with Joel was but I assume you are against the american dream John seeing as I essentially agreed with Lendman that marriage is not called a vocation I can see why you think I refute I only called him out on Speaking of Daniel how would you define a vow if I had money to yes I Namely I would require it be applied to college because the savings in interest would be a proper salutation for a Joshua Kenz that would depend on whether the interest accruing on the debt is greater than the interest that would be accrued in the endowment fund And what happened to the I found it charmingly I would donate with strict I would establish a work program in the first two have choices and earn work study money by doing menial and visceral charity My parents thought of this years and many have suggested it over The last summer and the summer after graduation I would fund programs of all also that put students in top notch orgs and biznesses or educational and let them be learning the landscape and what they do or want to I would also use money and prudence to pressure them to enact more stringent admissions policies and and professional procedures when it comes to hiring and firing I would specify at least a large portion of it all of depending on the size of the talk to recent graduates and current students about what they think needs money with a grain of salt for the inevitable of Of students know all the ins and outs of how the money is but they see a side of the school that others and often there are many things pertinent to everyday student life which go unfunded in favour of more I necessarily mean that as a criticism of the but it was an unfortunate fact of life while I was And as a friend a program to bring in a certain percentage of tutors who have not been just been in academia their whole as well as higher and clearer standards and procedure re hiring tutors in This would include significantly upping tutor by the I would also make pedagogical practice and instruction a more formal part of tutor are always Strings are unattached to cf Oikonomia for how Socrates But I would probably wait and see how things develop in the next decade before giving them Yah get nothing for as my grandfather used to Also I would commission a statue of James Madison and demand its placement in the Bond American religion QED wrong with the rolling admissions But I think one of the wisest attitudes the College has is to turn down donations of whatever size that call for changes they think are of advantage to its could make mistakes in the particular judgements of but the principle illustrates what is best about this and what will help it maintain its identity and serve students for decades to May I suggest an addition to commissioned statue of James His right foot should be stomping on my and his left on the head of with a otherworldly smile on his saintly  sure you could get that statue of Madison in They found a place for all those gross dead And rolling admission adversely affects the quality of the incoming which adversely affects especially given the communal nature of the education Katherine I think so in Most institutions of Higher Ed are cheaper dates than I love TAC for the same reason they tell presidents NOT to speak And not so sure about the mission as understood and Not sure it can last as it has operated in the been unblocked by Pope Periwinkle I have no This is like being in a bad How does it adversely affect the quality of the You mean something people get accepted who are worse fits just because they apply earlier in the year than people who are better Stupid people make for stupid Feil I know of quite a few stories of intelligent high school seniors who only found out about TAC during the normal college admissions By that the incoming class is already full people who are related to an alumnus and were thus the but it bothers I find that not to be the I guess being flexible with the meaning of But the smarties in the room need the slow people to get anywhere They admit not understanding things to themselves as readily I can sympathize with that though I know that a bad policy simply because some people get They let just anyone only people they think can benefit from and contribute to the discussions And why they even if someone smarter also wants to As I smarter always add most needed to a the Though maybe I am oversimplifying your position by identifying the smart people as the ones hurt by rolling I think I have caught up on the discussion of Madison that I James Patterson I am unable to said about Federalist that single religious sect could lay claim to an entire hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty eventually into intentional I think is a correct read of But that is also the plan makes sure that the one true Church could never be This effectively removes the one true God from the public And as Leo XIII is an affront to For while it is true that Catholicism is permitted to enter the public realm and makes its nevertheless American Catholics who imbibe the Madisonian principle of religious indifference will soon be unwilling and ultimately be unable to make the argument for Catholicism we see The supposed that single religious sect could lay claim to an entire is actually not the outcome of What Madison actually achieves is a super majority faction where one single religious it come to dominate American political And it is a tyrannical faction of the worst kind because it destroys not property but souls that uphold the dogma of dogmatic tolerance over the dogmas of the one true going to drink all the rest of the while Caleb is That will show Feil I can understand why they had the policy when nobody knew about the college and the classes had about twelve people in But now that they have more interested people than spaces in the what would be so bad about assembling all the applications and considering the group as a I see what I wonder if the result kind of naturally be picking all the brightest though if we went that And I know the whole rationale behind the I am only speaking of my experience teaching class which is Gotta will check in what does the case for I was mostly advocating for smarter so you misunderstand we need more vocal I the perfect TAC student by any but there were lots of kids who said a word in If you have enough of those kinds of section is Jeffrey does Vatican ii change things at in your Feil McArthur gave a talk at one of the alumni dinners a few years back where he seemed to be saying that he thought the College should be employing a different approach to given the limited number of the importance of the mission to teach a particular school of and the unfortunate tendency of nice Catholic youth to stumble in looking for nothing more than a nice Catholic Jonathan do you still have the text of that On the Katherine sharpens as the good book A more competitive edge to the place would have helped at any Feil Katherine They all have to be I just think that considering the applicant pool as a whole would be Caleb who has abandoned me but who is one of the all time awesomest TAC almost come because of the rolling admission for the reason Catherine Joliat Feil mentioned Matthew You leads to some great booksy types in the reading fed a bit more broadly as MODERNISM They read Fed and Fed and it is all very simple they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present This is the school from which Bond ingested his I mind being called The Ninth or having my arguments referred to as borders on hate speech in our enlightened but to reduce me to Straussian anger is going too As Groucho Marx and Bugs Bunny once famously course you know this means Jeffrey you are in place in What do you the answer for smart students going too fast is tutors like if manducatios your Relying on idiots seems backwards to To be Joel HF and Catherine Joliat Feil and I are a bunch of What I think is ironic and yet even touching about the policy is how democratic it I would love to that I think the official purpose of the policy is egalitarian in nature Samantha not sure you what you are referring to when you say the case for I was quoting you We for But I think Catherine is making a slightly less snobby You said Madison leads to a world where Catholics make the case for Catholicism In what why would it matter at all what anyone would have done in the whole debate an a quest to understand what Madison actually DID Because there room for the Catholic Church to be the one official church or how I understood anyway making snobby not mutually American for the most are Americans first and Catholics It is called the heresy of They place the First Amendment above the dogmas of the they say things like is true for but not necessarily true for thereby demonstrating that they have subordinated their Catholicism to the higher truths of the American Joel yes Vatican II attempts to complete the Madisonian revolution by making the Church fully That because Americans because basically THey have imbibed the relativism of the modern the fault for not teaching not fault for establishing freedom of religion Does VII mandate a certain church state Jeffrey Both are But Catholic teaching has failed because Madison has The public realm is too powerful and overwhelms a merely private Are you saying that the Catholic Church can only succeed with the support of the Surely you want to concede Was on my phone and missed your Jeffrey Have you read Thomas articles on religious liberty and I think they are quite as the engine of the is remaking the world in its own The Church are all that stand in its To be section without a few quiet people would have been a Not everyone can talk all the no way of telling how someone will contribute in section just by seeing their They could have straight As and not say a or they could have straight Bs and be very helpful Locke gets the for the victory of Enlightenment Madison is merely a popularizer of especially the doctrine of Thomas Pink on religious liberty and Vatican teaching on religious freedom changed not doctrine In the nineteenth in encyclicals from More What is the Catholic doctrine of religious The paper examines Catholic doctrine and theology THOMAS PINK the Church can and will succeed with or without the But the state by nature is subordinate and can do great damage to souls when it elevates itself above the true I will check it I have read Pink pater pm links to They have several Be happy to share them but not from Sometimes that advantage of mission is a little more real politick than they let have made in the they disagreed with in principle in order to secure I think there are some Calvanists who read Locke as an arguing against toleration of Papist and Muslims they have a temporal head of religion which trumps their civic this is a big vague for Do you not approve of religious What John love to hear your thoughts re Feel free to pm or post it or Religious liberty in the sense is not I agree with Leo magisterial account in of Joshua Kenz the American sense meaning that we do not establish an official state How to reconcile Leo with Vatican Michael Davies asked that question long but he has never received an Jeffrey read Thomas for at least an attempted He misdefines liberty and is ambiguous in his use of the word While critical of silence on Pink does the brief summary Stupid FB omitted minutes of Responding to Gardner  Christianity began and flourished without the help of the Jesus was pretty clear in fact that the realms were We in principle in the First exclude even the possibility of an established even if the population were as Leo is an affront to Not only but also and especially the state must acknowledge His Totally different kingdoms The realms are but Read On Isak not relevant is complaining about not taking an option that never read On An Anglican against How Oh My kind of Anglicans are just evangelicals who like liturgy The option may not have but that was because of the success of Madison does not have a problem with that It an option because of the plurality of religious communities already in existence on the ground in the Colonies All of whom quite rightly wanted protection against persecution That may but it is another matter altogether to begin to embrace the principle of religious in many ways the early relationship to the State may be the best for but only because martyrdom is a direct route to If read On why are you saying different as if that rebuts the claim that the state must acknowledge Because I was citing who seems to say something quite Feil Matthew Peterson the discussion of egalitarian admissions the policy may have been egalitarian to begin when no one had ever heard of this fringe ranch with a bunch of trailers where they talked about Ancient not egalitarian It favors people who have been dreaming about going to TAC since before they could In it favors the offspring of alums The conversion of Constantine was not a The Church has always sought the conversion of the after said to go forth and teach all which at this be the true purpose  Cohoe Well to give a relatively and well MacArthur separated the altar from the tabernacle and made it versus much to the consternation of McGovern who would not speak to him for days Much more the college not only had a falling out with one of its at the behest of the They completely erased him as much as possible from You cannot find his name anywhere on the list of despite being their And the dispute over which he left was his desire to appeal to the Cardinal after McGovern came in and said he allowed to celebrate the The school want any association that might be such as politely asking the Church authority for clarification of the And we were forbidden to organize anything in memorial when he being a though posted flyers advertising his requiem at their abbey I even got suspected of being behind that by the must never be associated with conservative liturgy movement by I am pretty sure too late for Or the whole intimidate a student for activity not concerning the because the Cardinal might think we are conservative and we cannot have that have to walk on egg shells I was How about the attitude to student workers during VIP Everything was all for appearances and pampering Only time I recall the school violating labor laws Buckley did end the liturgical where we had to go to Mass elsewhere because they were Now I am making this all sound much worse than it in some But the point is the college did worry about things like connections and perceptions and money to keep afloat to the point of not always being the most principled Where did Jesus say that the state does not have to acknowledge Are you thinking of the rendering to Caesar what is and I also think it is relevant that kingdom is not of this It depend on the authorities of this world to achieve its Your argument treads dangerously close to saying the kingdom is not of this but this world is part of His and that includes the public not just the father and Am I remembering that Jesus need us or the But given our political His love for us involves the conversion of not just assuming that love of God flourishes best when governments enforce a way of worshipping him I would have to ask a Biblical but I very much suspect you are not using there It is not a matter of enforcing Between indifference and force there is Samantha father and Or so I am Telemachus had the same But Samantha that should not distract you from the sheer quality and dazzling brilliance of our in has the state not used some kind of force to establish religion when the state had an official Geniunely curious about that one If anything is distracting the whiskey Whiskey Nancy whiskey I get the feeling that Peterson call them are Or maybe TAC is more traddy than I drawing a blank on the Telemachus Care to impart to father and all Telemachus wondered if Odysseus was really his  Madison and the guys who were concerned about establishing a state church had a seriously legit reason to be in when the state did not embrace did it refrain from persecuting  Almost entirely If someone were reading this they would conclude that TAC was made up of reactionary traddy Catholic types illiberal Leo XIII and Plus one This my memory of the of the In why not go for We persecuted you at all The whole history of the West involves the working out of the dynamic of Church and State both in theory and in It has been perfected in Practice is admittedly but we would no doubt look at history differently based on the different principles we Joel because you are a snob and only remember the people you and probably also the people you really hated I think you are dead wrong about The persecution here is brutal precisely because it is subtle and It has seduced American Catholics to build the pyramids without having to hold a spear to their back by convincing them of the very things you in sounds completely meaningless to me if never been the persecution is brutal because not Without theory one cannot even meaningfully distinguish between theory and How then can theory be You possibly know if an essentially political theory is perfect if never been put into practice I just how politics works point about persecution is Aside from Catholicism you find few persecutions or religious Somebody help me out Matthew Peterson There is clarity when one knows who the enemy When meaningful distinctions are there is a loss of intelligibility that is utterly destructive of human Sounds like the persecution brutal because it persecution It is persecution of the most deadly It kills communism sounded pretty perfect in But so many I was also somewhat bored by political philosophy at the But there were more Burkes than completely eviscerating the definition of persecution Never sounded or anywhere near perfect in Communism did sound perfect in It sounded deadly deadly dull at I was pretty sure you would say I am speaking of real Just as Mother Teresa was speaking of real poverty when she looked at the modern I know what talking I still forgiven Das Kapital for boring my socks Spiritual Spiritual the lone long suffering Can we get an epithet from Are you saying persecution when people go around not believing in the Church and being Matthew George Dolan I even know where to I try to give much more than I can time The high Middle Ages Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state This led to the abominable corruption of the replete with wicked and this led to the reformation and the Blaming Madison for the fact that America was populated by Protestants who understandably said call this off as far as the federal government goes because we want strikes me as and outright I am saying it is persecution when the state systematically denatures It is not just religious truth that is stripped but also the capacity to reason about denatures you are going to have to say what you mean by What Matthew Peterson Whatever the path and all in Christ are albeit subtly and perhaps in America which I mean Catholics and protestants whose beliefs are in line with historical protestant I can explain over and over faced with radical democratic majorities in the states dictating what was right and wrong and committing acts of Madison and friends see the need for an overarching government over the You want to blame the existence of that government for moral relativism when Madison was expressly trying to prevent majoritarianism in respect to Mitigating democracy with elements of I like the rotten TAC topic Man this thing moves Just one more whack at this and then you all can return to whatever you were I know whether it really is the case that most of the students applying and being accepted are alumni There certainly seem to be a lot of but I also think the reputation has spread a lot since I I was the first person in my family to hear of the Those who just apply in time can always wait a I did that I worked for a year after deciding to come and hearing the class was and Another I think it would be very hard to maintain the actual balance we have in classes if we tried to do it deliberately with all the applications in front of us at What are you going to look at a strong applicant with good grades and a weaker applicant who still is capable and we need a dumb so an arbitrary no to the smart She will never know why we said and she will have the same to face next but we need someone I see it happening that I imagine anything worse than a room with big It would not not the class go on there a mechanism that makes comments show up separated and You NEED the quiet ones to allow a conversation to even happen with that many And then you need the confused ones to get the others to explain things again and making it clearer every time to everyone and exposing holes in the accounts Smart and talkative Look at I shut say the classmates whose opinions I valued most ranged from quiet to tNET TAC Accepting the best students going to mean that all the students are A lot of conscientious students talk very but they do the reading carefully and they Joel HF a good But how much they will talk is hard to tell on And no one here is knowledgeable or capable of dealing with the historical facts on the Facts matter Thanks to Madison you and the schools taught at You want to blame the Constitution for the problems of the Church in This is why we They allow for Imagine a Roman martyr listening to you have it so the fault that the largest cradle to PhD Catholic education system on watch ever has corrupted Tell me more about how you have the liberty and resources you but it is easier to tell how well they would do the how able they would be to do a etc was going to preach here but I see all the gods and too many on I need to go get the government on my side The existence of and the schools we teach and the schools at which we were is only a good per dude But that just get you the smart And then you have a deficit of less which can actually be an mean the less bright can be an asset to the This entire smart and not smart concept seems pretty two dimensional to I teach and have been around the top of students in the nation and some talk and some and they are all very Yeah I know the worst I think and type fast enough to be nuanced on this Matthew Peterson someday I would like to meet you and shake your Sean Collins once told me that he say a a single in class until his Junior I mean there is a range of style of and this variety is good for and it happens naturally with rolling and it would be hard to deliberately I was thinking about TAC for my But you people are scaring I should say that my application was the all over the map application of an unschooled so I should probably be glad of some leniency in the admissions process The less bright as an assert to the bright has always sounded strange to me get the general I in a way I really want to But the thing is that any group will have differences and it just seems strange to say that those with less capability help in this If smart students skip and move to not really being very are and and are just place holders for the real differences because I name them easily And Joel do you think an there are a lot of students at TAC who really contributing to the mostly by not engaging with the readings or in Abolishing rolling admission could help with that problem all I if you think rolling admissions is bad because it keeps out the people you would judge on paper to be or something equally discernable my guess is that statistically you will probably omit people whose abilities make for an impressive bt are I know if it how can you tell if they will read or not from the Maybe sometimes you can but no one says that in an Matthew you should know not to take my FB persona too I also accuse you of being a which denied many After it be salutary for TACers to think of you that Julie please this is not a representative but Katherine Gardner is a tutor I wish I had when I was And her point is serious TAC have this servile type A who will go and become an unoriginal slave for Goldman Which is a fair Is it the rolling admissions that is the problem or simply that the admission standards have I think they were raised again since my class had such a huge drop out compared to the classes after following wanted the state to concentrate on the good of the body and move the good of the soul into the private As understandable and appealing as that may have been given the dangers of religious his plan and rationale made life As his letter to Jefferson Madison feared an established religion more than anything By effectively banishing false religions from the public realm so that they could not inflame the hearts of he simultaneously banished the true religion from the public realm where it rightly belongs so that it can best be enshrined in the souls of The price of as the world knows it was purchased at the expense of the true peace of The bargain was a spiritual disaster the effects of which have infected the entire world with a spiritual much like the disease Dostoevsky describes in dream in Crime and It is the nightmare of the Welcome to the Matthew the standard response to deny the existence of Americanism tout OK Joel HF by these accusations drawing out my denial you help me keep my There is also the problem of attrition that Lauren TAC let in so many kids who just do the program Why does Locke keep getting in the way of critiquing the admissions office Jeffrey What philosopher wanted the federal government to deal with last end of man and morals in any sort of serious or direct Feil Katherine I can see how you might have misgivings about how the method would not sure how the particulars would But why do you think rolling admissions is Just because I suppose that may be I guess my experience of admissions at other schools just makes that problem at TAC look very You wanted the US Protestant sects to fight each other and outlaw Catholicism from these sometimes turning people down makes them work harder to get in which does show something about the work they will do to get through the program You are allowed to challenge the outcome I buy the argument that things are so much worse now than they were in the Middle or whatever mythical time Jeffrey Bond is referring to when the state took good care of Katherine what problems if you can speak of I still buy quite buy it re but Katherine is in the honeymoon phase of her which is right and Katherine from what little I know of you I thank God you are Feil Samantha all those years of rolling admissions and they still let in people who obviously are going to struggle to can spot them from day And they even all that some of There are also people who slip through the cracks and really but because approaches vary from tutor to And not even talking about people who are really good at everything but Latin or talking about people who produce an intelligible synopsis of what they had studied in of their maybe and thanks for I am new and I have tons of experience with how TAC does things but after seeing the degree to which the last school at which I taught admitted students not remotely fi for the program out of a desire to stay the student body at TAC looks like a SO few there who interested or So I think if you were all on my admissions board I of had a chance at getting into the program do think admissions has been better since my But I mean we lost a huge percentage freshmen year sooooo No place is perfect but a little perspective can be Samantha at the very people are more confused morality today than they were in the middle or heck even the Locke not only destroyed Western he also got in the way of TAC admissions That is serious People who preach are never going to be inclined to tolerate those who tell them that what they tolerate is sin and is bad for their as far as I can At as far as I can talk about the the commercial is the aquisitive virtue a new Locke saved western has TAC done Joel been reading some I mean my honeymoon comment to sound dismissive of your good We must have a discussion on the American Do you folks recognize such a If the shadows on the wall of the American cave come from from whence do they There is no but a cave within a I If Alexander VI were my pope be pretty confused about Things fall The cave cannot Alexander VI teach He lived Very different People are confused about morality Fancis as Pope but who am I to Just a actually a very similar problem People might be more confused about but I think any less moral in Teaching heresy and living immorally are not similar at every society has its some darker and What is The confusion they cause in the faithful is very similar I get I sound like a But I have been to a LOT of colleges Aquinas the and Ave and have had siblings at many more Boston Minnesota St Santa And I have never seen one more of the good it aims more careful to make thoughtful judgements about which goods to let go and which not to compromise or one that is accomplishing what it claims to so On what are you basing that How are you supposed to take moral teachings seriously if your teachers take them Are you asking that question with a century I completely agree with and I have a lot of experience with at this point trying to imagine the kind of person I might be in midieval France or if not already dead from childbirth would then a completely uneducated mother of trying to live well but confronted by hypocrisy in the institution supposed to I think they are worse than merely They condone what were traditionally thought of as And try telling them about virtue and is NOT tolerated because it is seen as This if not then at least so rare that you have to go back a long way to find examples of Our cave is the darkest and deepest of all because Americans are more convinced than any people anywhere that they are sure sign that they are in the Everyone say it all are think for are I am not claiming it does everything of It seemed to me that the rolling admissions thing worked well and acknowledged what the school offers as a common good to be sought by any comers who were ready for and wanted to hear and consider the done for Cannot read and type fast Long live the  Must prep for All See you Which Monday is October Cave life Do not make fun of the shadows on the your vision of the world is based on American Do you really think the contemporary world sets the standard for I My vision of the world is actually based on reading a lot of history and NEVER tell inhabitants they are cave But I am certain rather live my life now than any other time in NEVER point out the contradictions in I would have preferred to die at Reverence the cave founders always and praise the craftsmanship of their freedom very tolerant of sexual perversion these But not tolerant of violence against children not tolerant of violence against not tolerant of vice and hypocrisy and corruption in the clergy you just have gone to Or maybe if you were really There has never been greater violence against Give an   start with abortion and go from Fair no longer tolerant of violence against children who are Not I I think the century has some of the worst violence against children known to excluding Point out the truth that all our ancestors were cave men and cave dwellers that depict horrible child abuse and homophobia except the enlighted Spartan lover warriors talking about in America  You see the spiritual war waged against the children being the greatest I think the most agreement here is Jeffrey Bond and others and myself when it comes to the evils we do and the problems of contemporary I think unique to this I think worse in this era than other And I think as a we are less tolerant of violence against And American is exporting that spiritual war abroad as it compels the rest of the world to embrace its Yell the freedom cry of Caliban This gets many cave brownie points and qualifies you for cave I agree about the but I think this rosy nostalgia for a better time when the church was looking out for souls is revisionist It is not about It is an argument about Katherine Gardner thank you so much for these comments I need They mean plenty of times similar re violence against But they cared a lot about their common good in And century violence against woman and child is How do the progressivists account for a by your own admission Yah it stems from philosophies that erect man as Why are supporters of Madison called to account for crimes of Socialists and Communists and Because Madison opened the door and let them When did I say w See Translation t f The Catholic Church opened the by screwing up so badly when it was in charge The founders were hypocritical Spartan infanticide was But it made more sense than our The state threw the weak off the We grant that to the individual in the name of Are you sure you actually did get in the Maybe that diploma was just a likeness of a a SHADOW of a likeness of a We have blood on our but thankfully we won this century and not the others the best by far of an imperfect They totally but they had some good ideas about how to construct a government I like the rolling admission for much the same reasons as Katherine is especially since it encourages evaluating each application on its own merits rather than by comparison to I missed the class I began my application for because of this Jeffrey right so better in your mind if the state sanctions and forces child sacrifice to it rather than letting it hang on As far as the you know will drop several of those people in my class would have looked great on In Sparta a Catholic would have to leave or eventually be no Evil either But Sparta had a criterion that limited this Our version knows no The for all their would not have decimated their own Sure they if a tenth of the population had birth A Catholic in Sparta would know the A Catholic in America embraces the On the backs of oppressed Because I see how or ideas work without capitalism exports I And the wind shall here were decent godless slightly And it is much worse to force a mother to kill her baby than to allow a mother to kill her is a horrific statement Which Gently incentivize is what we do in our I meant but I should have asked for a clarification Worse for for Worse for the one permitting or I presume We abortion in this At the federal level we encourage particularly for the The states have various It is worse for the mother to freely and without coercion choose than to do so under duress You really think it is better for a mother to be allowed to kill her own child than to be forced to kill her own Of course I I really have no idea why this is so Cause to do evil is worse than to suffer and to the degree that one is it is involuntary in Sparta the child was taken from the mother and killed if it was This is But the mother killing her own child is much Most mothers choosing abortion I they have a gun to their but I think some people are considering individual guilt while others are considering the just order of the community the moral evil of a woman without chooses abortion is greater than the suffering of injustice on her prt by being coerced Abortion is the mother who kills her child with full knowledge of what she is doing is very rare You would elevate the freedom of choice for the mother above the blamelessness if I would rather live in a state where I was allowed to have an abortion than in one where I might one day be forced to kill my child What I would say that a society that forces abortions infanticides is a worse society than one that merely permits But a woman who freely choose is more guilty than one who chooses those under I am shocked that that is Socrates saw that doing evil is worse than suffering Even if one that there is usually some involuntariness due to well ignorance is a And even if the ignorance is it takes the nature of a punishment and our society is closer to Sparta than I initially because point about incentivization is true Their only monument the asphalt And a thousand lost golf balls Langley hit it on the The evil for this woman is greater in choosing The evil of society in general is greater in forcing it And I think Joshua and Samantha are talking past each speaking as a mother I would probably do any evil to prevent any of my children being The evil of being forced to expose one of my babies is incalculably horrifying to me But not a regime that allows you to murder your child at your And you think that is an attitude to Many might act that but we would say that is because we are sinful creatures But you still think the freedom for mothers to do it themselves is horrifying to me but the other is worse  The ancient Greeks had some population Bwhaha What I actually worry about today is forced sterilization for poor people and And sterilization of women in the third world under the guise of helping It has happened from time to time in the and there seems to be a vocal group of people that are pushing The regime is more evil than that is a pointless exercise unless it relates to larger The with America leading the way But if you want to play that game it is a game of comparison and what is sanctioned and what is I know why these points are being used against horrified by all those It is interesting that opposition to population control is the one thing that brings together the Catholics and the And in that comparative the America as the Great Satan bit falls flat for It is interesting that in a broad sense are common ground for Catholics and Muslims certain methods of evangelization and But if you want to talk about happy for what Madison gave me in that Kenz I know if that attitude is to be defended or but how God made mothers and I try to fight I have a general principle as a young man to not get into particulars in political or ethical no solutions from Matthew Peterson Knock it off with the a few points on previous comments Whatever Locke and whatever Madison sometimes the power of a principle extends beyond the provincialism of its Locke would exclude Catholics from in the Detach Memoranda exactly a shining example of religious liberty either being against the freedom of as corporate and indeed against their Against chaplains in the military But the actual law of the amendment takes a life of its one far than intended by some of the founders Alexander VI was not as bad a portrayed in We repeat legends and calumnies against him all the The real Alexander was no shining eample of but the debauchery he is often accused of is largely mythological Benedict IX really should be the bad pope to cite against The Church holds that societies and qua societies and must recognize and submit to the reign of But we should also be ready to admit that this submission has rarely been achieved in history even when the state de iure professed such Still we should work for its real true conversion to let Aristotle scare you A society in which I was at serious risk of having a baby taken from me and killed is a society I would rather die than live I think if I were given the choice I would simply rather not I can live all I was trying to God clearly does not want us to do evil that good may make mothers that I buy Perhaps the strong natural inclinations He did create them to defend their But it is only concupiscence that corrupt that into inordinately loving them so as to prefer them against which is what doing evil for them would I can agree with last The social order would be worse and more I think we can all agree with And the evil to mothers who would not destroy their children when the Turks captured Bulgaria they began a brutal campaign to convert the natives to They lined families up on bridges and took them one by demanding their conversion or their Their heads fell by the hundreds into the Women would encourage their own children to face the blade to ensure them the Kingdom before bowing their own I obviously agree with point Point I cannot As for Point I think the First whatever the intention of its they had different aims that led to it as a sort of been a read those kinds of stories and I really think about But you can stomach the contemplation of a regime that even encourages mothers to murder their own babies for the sake of What would not having the first amendment have meaning was perverted and as the Feds But that was on account of prots fighting Catholics and the rise of new ideas in Edward we want data How did this turn into accusations that somehow ok with I can live in this can The hermeneutic of inquisition and You are putting words in my I never accused you of being okay with but got a young I would rather live in a regime that allows mothers to abort their than one in which I might be in danger of allowing my baby to be that escalated quickly The First Amendment enshrines the contradiction of doctrine of As it actually establishes a pseudo religion while insisting that no religion can be As the law of the it forms souls according to its vision of religious Most Catholics place this pseudo dogma above the teachings of the Or they reinterpret Catholicism to mean what the First Amendments Begging your pardon but what happens to the soul in either Does anyone here actually think any of these founder cats would be cool with the last century of moral point one is simply to detach Madison from the law He makes no judgement regarding religious He is being more prudent than Edward Has anyone seen this At least watch the the three deadliest words in the world a bad thing happen to the soul in both cases Is it worse to commit evil or suffer Simple Madison actually ate babies for Chubby slave babies from in the case of the guilt is almost always mitigated by a lack of full understanding of what is being done violence from by the the only reason still on this thread tonight is because my wife is at Jimmy Kimmel live watching this super trendy irish band called The Script play music because my little sister asked her to not because she even knew who the band I know I brought it upon but you can quit with the now Yes I think anyone advocating for ye olde good olde days should be bringing up  Who is advocating for good old and if we take Church documents seriously about the numerous reforms proposed for the clergy throughout history thinks that the average Catholic well taught and well spiritually cared just a bunch of It is impossible to imagine those men in powdered wigs walking around in the No doubt anyone from any time launched forward into the future would be in Charlton But it is as you that they would be shocked out of their And you know how the song goes olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking but now God knoooooooows anything I think it is and tNET has lead us to that the only political answer is perpetual LONG LIVE THE here we Waddya wanna do Keep I love you But what do yah What did you try to perpetual revolution Old authors who all once knew better words now only use writing anything in both terrible evil is being I would rather be allowed to do a certain that I would never than be forced to suffer murder of my I I still see why this is so controversial no before that Many local councils and synods throughout Church history have been about corrective measures for or otherwise not rosy the past up too much now THANK see also bastards inherit miss Ladies and it has been a pleasure to spend the evening with but I will pay dearly in the No of We must all give our best to the I actually thanks for your Bond Good Thanks for coming when I summoned Drop the Just call me God bless us be right Dr Peterson I have read m not nostalgic a apoplectic to be I agree in principle that better to suffer evil than to do I actually think that is an argument that exposing infants is better than Well Jefferson and Madison both predicted we would all be unitarians by the mid I think the actual playing out of the amendment has on the whole than it could have My judgment on religious I is not known to I got some ire before for my criticism of the campaign here Religious liberty is ultimately not fully And we see the conflict in conflicting approaches by SCOTUS Yoder to Employment And while we have granted far more standing to Churches than Madison would there is still the conflict over who possesses a church or the Because they sometimes The American Myth of Religious Freedom by Craycraft does a good job documenting the and But I think the actual as received in a body of citizens at once more conservative and religious than many of the is a little better than the picture he Even if one cannot take religious liberty as a real in the context of a society that does not submit to perhaps the somewhat contrived application of in the context of does more good than harm given our actual political call me help it if I had to receive the mark of the Someday I hope to have booze with Jeffrey My little boys are begging me to read this book to so I must Joel HF ignoring actuaI things said by and done by Madison and Jefferson and the actuaI cIimate of a worId with essentiaIIy Even IincoIn was a Not sure you couId find from the that thought bIacs were Joshua than who The American Myth of Religious Freedom by which was the antecedent in that was both plugging it and criticizing it at the same time come to the Odyssey reading next summer in Chicago just figured that And they thought it was But I guess the problem I have with the types is that it is really an accident of birth that anyone is born The difference being that people who are proud of being German in Germany have a and that the same as a really just elitism on my Patriotism is too close to and in a country with no shared it is meaningless I know what happened here I thought I was trying to defend religious and argue that state supported churches were a bad Then was being told I need to encourage my children to be beheaded and people are freaking out about a Patriotism is like filial but still good to love your country and your even good to have pride in not if your countrymen the same as WHAT is wrong with I agree with the above True patriotism is not about an but about te common soil and and the common good amongst you Why You still have shared national no I By above I meant Cause a National Genocide of the indigenous immigrant virtual child crony stop me when I get to something you guys like I agree with the Ashman a lot of pretty but still our history YOUR my family immigrated later But natio is already a weakened bond and prone to false But I agree with Beitia otherwise and How can you agree with both of tNET takes synthesis and antithesis and overcomes it all for the fact that pretty much every other country was more horribIe and the US reaIIy pushed naturaI rights and the modernization of government to unprecedented but you grew up You benefitted from our and immigration is part of our natio a huge in fact then it is a really weak sense of natio A criticaI Whether your ancestors came over on the Mayflower MINE or on some boat from the continent I dont think Beitia is focusing on the right What are the positive as they say things we have in How about going to the same elementary singing What a child this is in the Christmas How about my great uncle being big into early and a big name in the Why does it have to only be the big things in history when we speak of common How about the death of my great uncle on And his sparing of a Japanese soldier in a previous he recognized as a fellow student from his California HS who had been conscripted while visiting relatives in I am not a Nationalism is part and parcel of I But I follow that modern My country is my regardless of any attribution of We in fact live in one and even if only in mourning over I am connected to It might be but I feel the absence of it every time I go to Canada I if you give the US some credit for being Iess shitty that most any country in the previous Homer Simpson USA Homer Simpson USA I think I just have the same tie to the land got But you have to think the US any better than any other country to feel patriotism it is the little things too that i am talking perpetual like I said would you think it was impious of me if I started talking about my parents the way talking about has anyone here read Nicholas Russian you met mine Au met NationaI preference is a good If I say is the best and you have good But it becomes invaIid if you refuse to change preferences and move when another country surpasses your It sets you up as an awfuI And if a nation who want to attract more paying and teII peopIe they then shitty at free marqet And worse if you start shooting peopIe who want to move to teh just say filial piety is not one of my virtues mine trying to make an argument that we owe some small amount of respect to our as we do to our parents Not an biased respect An A bit of bias is I I need to go to not even eleven My kids will all be up before and all and my husband has abandoned me If it is conscious because you enJoy I will be at work before la vie But at least tNET abandon Thanks Goodnight perpetual revolution or constant change establishes a no complaint is To respond to the hotrods are gone as the caroling of my The California farms are no Absence of Americanism in Imagine that I know what you mean Canada does lack the pride of a people in general are more friendly how can you be proud of a country try to get a spoiled boy to hold the office of Prime And what now binds us as a What Or is it only a common core of We carolled until I still have family on farmland A Iot of the Canadians met are pretty good at criticizing other countries my childhood in California was living with a grandparent in a trailer park in Buena Vista trailer to be The happiest trailer park on earth But Beitia doesnt have I am in rural America and it is better Folks still carry traditions or try to graft Lauren Candians are not more friendly per They are generally more Think of it this New Yorkers are thought of as but all the little comon courtesies one might extend in a smaller trying that when instead of interacting with a dozen people a you interact with It is one thing to stop and let a car out of a parking lot in a small quite another to do that for every car that it might benefit in What is seconds inconvenience in is devastating traffic causing in I think a one one one comparison would have to be betwen similar rural to rural and so on my first am not like these elitist moment came I told a kid at the playground grammar could use some he responded with your not so great I was not like these men And now for some There are official SI abbreviations for large groups of ka Ma Year the free encyclopedia A year English Gothic Runic is the orbital period of the Earth moving in its orbit around is it just or does that look like Pa stands for years my I aged when I became a which is because the age of the universe is several orders of magnitude less that Traffic is a bad people are bad drivers everywhere and people who try to be nice just cause more problems on the road Just got the kids Wife not back Time there are people who are nice on the road night on the south side not who are bad drivers but that are bad petannus and sounds like it really Aint right And why did this thread go crazy when I could finally put my baby down without her waking but was dead when I only had one arm Especially the dude in front of me the other night who was trying to take an unprotected left turn across a major street York despite the sign right next to the traffic The cars behind me played a new symphony in response to that some jerk got shot at the street exit of the Dan Ryan so no traffic could turn so everything bottled up on the way to ugh it took four cycles of the lights for me to get Getting shot is generally a pretty thoughtless thing to then when I finally got to the the car in front of me STOPS in the middle of State so no one can to decide which way to Horn section and section blaring pretty frequent where I travel shot killed The pastor at one of the Catholic Churches in the area has a rosary made from casings collected outside his downtown DC I have literally had to chase foaming at the mouth crackheads out of our parish but not for a few years Friends womder why I dont want to move back to the I was in a hurry to get to as because my second son was on the schedule for second acolyte and DC has had some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the so did Illinois maybe where I find the in the and the love of and the use of pretty distinctive only homicides in DC to date this got LA county had but the only place I can find with a higher number and it directly there were more than murders in NYC in Now down to like  just those numbers are Felony felony assaults PER DAY the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not support the theory of Ineffabilis Deus uses the words infusion of not when describing the creation of the Mother of The dogma merely states that Mary was Immaculately in body and soul and all at the same Mary is so it seems the dogma may also shed light on human conception in conception being the fusion of the very first strand of genetic together at the same time and along with the infusion of the the soul acting as formal principle to the fusion of the first material component of the new human One may think of zipping a the form of the article of clothing its shaping or coming together is the result of the both happening in one unified No other theory seems to make philosophical Mary was conceived in this it and most definitely preserved by a singular act of grace from original Please do not collapse this theological discussion of the Theotokos into a base discussion of human as happened There have been four mayors of NYC since David Rudy Michael Bloomberg and Bill de Whatever you think of NYC they must have got something either that or just ignoring certain Scott just posted something but not sure can see  Oh I can see Scott unblocked me Violent crime has gone way down over all since the late almost I have to get up super early in the morning to be at work so I will offer a few comments immaculate enzippment Since the and in large urban areas things have improved drastically re Infusion of soul each rational immortal human soul is made by specific creative act of God I wonder if what is Matthew Peterson I have to get up at tomorrow hours ahead of you buddy and when my alarm is set for Edward disputed by scholars and but the facts are not sure my best case if five at this point Why are we on tNET It could indicate that we no longer value courage and even if a good it could be a sign of societal had a went to Mass this the football game was a joke by the time I got you know is not to reason ours is but drink or Into the tNET rode the like as about to crack another beer I Edward Decline narratives much better than But who I at least in it looks like the decline of Rome was caused in an increase of luxury and a decline of the martial but lead to violence among the have But soft despotism might be the to be Depends on how lazy it made expect initially it would cause an increase of violence and through welfare programs like distribution of to Last I as far as science and industry I think the US today is anything like the US of the or the possible exception of the tech panis et circensis even Asia and Russia seem to produce better programmers than we do cable TV and food stamps protect the gated Immaculate enzippment is a lot more appealing this But strike the zipper analogy for Our I think it may hold some value for the rest of us in la plus la change la plus la meme i hit two birds with one platitude that the history of real of music and painting is a blatant yeah punk is much better than what we have now Art is on the biggest upswing in biggest in the sense of years is barely a What is philosophy is in decline because of all those damn Lol yeah not put painting and fine arts are on a current The galleries and pricing is going You misspelled Heidegger ask got a great essay on is a work of art actually related to the greatest living artist Philosophy is in decline because of specialization within Views of Rome CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ARTIST Art is an imitation in the form in a different A for The current problem within business is the slow retirement of baby boomers and the promotion of engineers into bait tired reversal The Cricket STEM is on a decline a book by a prominent Lee in which he basically says the problem with physics today is that we really made any progress since the Engineersake great first tier but are worthless in second tier and above Engineers are part part and hopefully very True and stem is in decline because of specialized stem high schools Forcing the learning curve downward to jr I love how we reminisced in the absence of and now that it returns we brush it off and continue on our This Yes in decline tell you Doubly stupid companies push engineers to get business degrees but they just become worse Crickets have not changed their tune in Their tune is and It just goes to show that if you practice a lot and keep things simple you will be my beer is hours is the best I can Catch you all in about Have True the crickets are the but if they evolve they will be You might actually feel better with only hours of they say the sleep cycle is I think engineers have to be very Good night The best human orchiatrated experiment in genetics is dog Look at the wonderful accomplishments in rapid evolution through selective Nothing evolves except thinking make it Engineers do not have to be creative At Most can not draw a square if you do not define it for them Engineers have become so specialized that they all require architects to design their providing every predefined input and the form of every expected i believe Jeff there is a new category of engineer the UX They define the complete with virtual backstory and imaginary life they Define how this person likes to behave and what they can cope with learning or They then define for the engineer what exactly to Engineers are more worthless now then ever peregrine bonaventure They are the carpenters of the virtual they can build anything someone else Construction is too complex for the  Carpenters i have worked with are very Not so much the engineers but there are exceptions like the ONE engineer in the company who knew everything at our avionics manufacturing without Holy making Peregrine As Scott Can you see The usual He tried raising Compared ensoulment to zipping a Can see but not the talk about Orthodoxy by faith vs cult Go Why is he Who permitted Looks like Matthew him or something like You missed the invitation Beitia and Peterson The rest of you did not spawn interesting enough discussion and he was invited to I wish my disapproval noted for There was an outpour of Peoples wanted there pet tNET Matthew gave into the hoi Is the of a better than examined Roman gladiator shows tNET troll baiting faith of a child examined belief Faith is belief in what reason cannot properly but it would seem that most people do not their faith and therefore take more by faith At what point is a faith a But there is good cultus and cultish fideism or fuhrer then superstition and then the I guess cults are all a form of false worship or true Guns have very little to do with crime as crime fell in both states that eased guns laws and those that tightened And we can compare stats in Australia before and after and same with England and see similar statistical I would have to look up the exact numbers for but formula for murder rates in the US satisfies the requirements of of adult males in of murderer being rate lagged Economic fatherhood is the proportion of between who actively are involved in Mueller following account of gifts and and that indicators would vary inversely with and an exemplar is the giving of self in fatherhood He only roughly estimated this value sufficient data to be more by taking the total fertility rate as an factoring out males in prison and children supported by the was a relative constant over the last years of is for every increase in economic murder rates fall by is every increase murder rates fall and you get the picture for the is is abortion rates positively correlate with murder contrary can be said to represent a sum of other that have overall remained fairly And using a different for each we find the formula works in all It also works with other Note how execution rates do correlate with less but has far less effect than healthy attributing the recent dropping rates to incarceration as is only a very partial and a costly and sometimes questionable Whereas economic fatherhood motherhood is a positive cost Note that the constant varies inversely with the suicide rate of most developed I mean is that countries with an historically lower murder also have historically a higher suicide It is an interesting that Mueller could not what happened between that changed the constant The murder rate in the US used to be a lot higher than say the way before even the UK had guns has ours decreased times higher rather than times course they count it different statistics based on different criteria is Sorry for the digression but the comment about guns resurfaced my thoughts from last night am while I am likely the biggest gun nut on this but there is some truth to being a peculiar American that is rather sad among those and An excuse to ignore the more fundamental issue of marriage and and by extension real But it gets to a deeper In both sides of the there is an underlying current of individualistic This stands out most with but it is also there in the other side and their right to feel safe and And no one questions the common ground which is the real This is the problem with not refreshing the was responding to Michael claim about the natio of this hour and a half I am wondering as to Edward thoughts I dare not speak of the fall of am not even sure we can speak of a fall at When was it The late and attempt to decentralize rule Caesars and two Post the last to rule over all of the Empire you count brief treatment of Odoacer as viceregent and himself as sole The establishment of the Ostrogothic The Senate remained throughout the kingdom and republic and It was the constant political institution of it just sort of faded We know it recognized Emperor Phocas in even though Gregory was already lamenting the decline of it as an its place of meeting was turned intoa Church in from is just withered slowly and The eastern Senate remained longer and underwent a similar fading away after last known act was But the Emperor So maybe the fall of But clearly in crowning Charlemagne emperor of the and prior to that still have a relation with the eastern the was a sense even in the and century west that Rome was still a So Or in with the deposition of Or why not even is Lichenstein is the last remnant of the Holy Roman Roe still lives in Maybe rather than we could say Rome sort of and and some elements of this others mutated divided ad What do you think of the narrative that attributes the decline of Rome to I had my first real encounter with a personalist It go Go well for him or  His lecture was about refuting metaphysical errors of Christopher So I thought have some common Boy was I Try arguing with a real Scotist He says that souls are masculine or feminine before they are infused into and when I challenged him on this he simply dismissed the authority of the fathers and said I understand the relationship between body and All the he got a woman in the audience to stand up and give him a It was all very I did the Scotus thing last Likewise I know about but I generally find these positions a lot more respectable when arguing with a person who actually holds then I find them in most of the time the argument only proceeds Thomas Quasthoff Die schweigsame schön ist Sorry I was busy giving a bit of righteous indignation elsewhere over silly protestantized Catholics trying to claim a protestant ecclesialogy if those not in the Church can be said to be actual members of the Body of whole visible reality of that Body and the inability to distinguish the visible from the in the decree of commemorating the reformation said we are in the same so I am the If you think trying to argue with a Scotus is trying to argue with a modernist is Edward I buy that the popularity of epicureanism had much to do with while hedonist it is not hedonist in the way we use that term it advocates a certain simplicity in it had already been popular it the time of with Caesar himself having an affinity to Cicero opposed though most of his friends were the decline and changing and mutating of Rome happened through many It is hard to attribute any philosophy as a cause even as only being a cause among many Edward I have a similar this lecture I went to on the metaphysical errors of Christopher West was not one of those The lecture ultimately was slanderous and calumnious of His lecture was a critique of but involved no quotations from West at His response to my objections were dismissive and condescending a bad I am willing to talk to almost anyone and discuss with almost anyone as long as there is evident respect shown for me and the discussion at Lendman I would agree with your sentiment with an I want someone who will actually say what he means and mean what he Even than someone using strawmen to attack you and the is the person who thinks dialogue means merely stating your varied views and leaving it at when it is a question of facts and the reaction to any challenge is to get extremely upset and stick fingers in your but even worse to just ignore it with we can agree to I like some As long as the aim is The lecturer got to troll Daniel have to quote his and hugged women in the This personalism business sounds great so the problem I answer This is the difference between the natural body of man and the mystical that the members of the natural body are all and the members of the mystical are not all as regards their natural since the body of the Church is made up of the men who have been from the beginning of the world until its as regards their supernatural of those who are at any one some there are who are without yet will afterwards obtain and some have it We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in but as they are in some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to and some are reduced at some time to and this according to the triple of which the first is by the second by the charity of this the third by the fruition of the life to Hence we must say that if we take the whole time of the world in Christ is the Head of all but first and He is the Head of such as are united to Him by of those who are actually united to Him by of those who are actually united to Him by of those who are united to Him merely in which is not yet reduced to yet will be reduced to act according to Divine of those who are united to Him in which will never be reduced to such are those men existing in the who are not on their departure from this wholly cease to be members of as being no longer in potentiality to be united to Do you guys ever a Some kind of continental been here at for over two hours now What is your Joshua Rome I think the way it was perceived at the time of the multiple But I know what you are It was only mostly dead if that and the East It was the end of an age though and the beginning of another say collar wage but technically and But my collar in blue before facebook deleted my employment it said servant at the FB fired nope now it says indentured servant at the I have no idea how this Facebook knows management It will not allow you to falsely claim solidarity with the oh I claim It was the best of it was the worst of Olisipiensis cencenda The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best but when he ventured upon the thread I vowed guillotine Hey when did you come Last night at I had been on a blocking rampage then came to my Cinna the I want to be Caesar After last night I think I need to be a I am not I was just upset by some of the discussion on the Immaculate you should buy this Poetry must be written for an If you know how to use you are on track as a if you know how to use and if you can handle Scripture you can write I wrote this for the interest of the and to It is important to write to This just means you are writing to an If you are a pious you must also write to an But this book is selling in the largest Catholic bookstore in the and other You should get a It will have a positive impact on your I It will delight and entertain and make you It took several years to I am a slow The publisher asked me to write a botanical in honor of Our and I have also begun an epic about the experiences of a refugee in Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of And because teaching Federalist again this I I simply do not see what others see when they give it what I take to be a careless For the Madison in is talking about preventing OPPRESSIVE and UNJUST He knows there will be majority He thinks the large republic will prevent BAD majority opinion and allow GOOD majority opinion to This applies to religion as He has no problem with a religion that would be upheld by a majority if it oppressive and upheld the rights of He has his personal doubts over whether that is Jefferson thinks far from getting rid of any religious everyone will become In neither case is there a rejection of the public good or an objective wrong for time little however I read the text for What you seek in it IS NOT And it is strange to wish that it was I am not agree to not disagree for a step towards Madisonian supermajority indifferentism we are arranging your resignation What you are all arguing is that because they ban Catholicism they would have done if they adopted your they made it hard for Catholicism to ever take root and made us all moral But not a single one of these people were Nor were the laws and culture of the For well over a Madison never wrote a It seems that What we are arguing are the moral consequences of the a big I understand the political reality in It about should I have I thought I was the first true thing heard about Madison on this He did write about beasties Founders Notes on Histoire May Notes on Histoire Why are some saying Federalist is a shield against faction of the I think the disconnect between reality on the ground and the refusal to speak of the actual circumstances and choice in front of these men writing to persuade people in the midst of those set circumstances on the one and these so called principles on the is an enormous part of the and refusal to address it will forever make your position look But I still want to see where Madison rejects the notion that there is an objective The entirety of and DEPEND UPON THE IDEA THAT THERE IS HE WOULD NOT HAVE CARED ABOUT UNJUST AND OPPRESSIVE MAJORITY TYRANNY IN WHICH HE WAS TRYING TO read some relativism from Fed shall is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its but to guard one part of the society against the INJUSTICE of the other yours is the The realty is that society has embraced a demand that all be tolerant of all views and This is the Why is an not about skewering Madison though there is that temptation because you want to find someone that is Madison and Washington had an The word interest may have been favorite Madison had an interest in forming a union and protecting it against That is his subject and His subject is the smaller and forming the union amidst an onslaught of small are but two methods of providing against this Getting in that top percentile on your view of the subject must particularly recommend a proper federal system to all the sincere and considerate friends of republican since it shows that in exact proportion as the territory of the Union may be formed into more circumscribed or States OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be is the end of It is the end of civil It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be or until liberty be lost in the In a society under the forms of which the stronger FACTION can readily unite and oppress the anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of where the weaker individual is not secured against the VIOLENCE of the and in the latter even the stronger individuals are by the uncertainty of their to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as in the former will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally by a like to wish for a government which will protect all the weaker as well as the more Matthew people saying that Maddison is himself a relativist least I remember them saying but rather that he follows the Enlightenment thinkers in trying to turn the attention of political life away from concern with the last OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be this is a smaller States are a smaller not a majority faction or tyranny of the extended republic of the United and among the great variety of and sects which it A COALITION OF A MAJORITY OF THE WHOLE SOCIETY COULD SELDOM TAKE FOR ANY OTHER PRINCIPLES THAN THOSE OF JUSTICE AND THE GENERAL explain this passage to No objective An objective good underlies the argument of both Fed and And no one will answer my question how would any philosopher or Pope want the federal government to deal with last as all agree that as you extend the sphere the purposes get thinner and more I think he means in the same way Hobbes summum but Hobbes did not really reject neither does So he is concerned with what is objectively but he wants to agree to disagree about the highest You want me to And I only make assertions has been sufficiently Pater Bond was indeed and has said that Madison did not hold to an objective indeed a misunderstanding of Bond said  it views happiness as final He just does not call it beatitude as Thomas does in his book about Madison was not eyeing a Catholic monarchial reign like some do He have to to make his What does Madison mean by by by This was the argument that Bond was I have not been rereading nothing excepts quotes and links is not of But Matthew will make As to the agree to disagree what do you think the federal government should have done state governments ALREADY HAD established I did read loooooots on just been a There was an OBVIOUS reason to agree to disagree multiple obvious reasons when it came to the federal not what they have what the can we do the point of the inquiry and to gain interlechual I think time to write in the manner of is not that Democracy has never tried it is that Catholicism has never tried consequences of his Neither Bond NOR I will respond to the should they have LIS not really about skewering Madison I have defended him at water under the trying to understand our particular circumstances and what is the the and the even matter what Madison means by justice and the general good the terms will be defined by people deliberating throughout the nation about matters of Would putting Aristotlian definitions into the Constitution have served a Read the state constitutions they did this to some Madison is trying to form a just in the face of a confederacy of He succeeded in a way that Catholics are free to practice their The greater tragedy is that Catholics do not know their WHat At least spell it If you want to understand our circumstances but want to deal with circumstances call me This is the last time I am going to It is Chesterton Please try to write your sentences in the manner of I think time to write in the manner of is not that Democracy has never tried it is that Catholicism has never tried I disagree with He never left his his enthusiasm for democracy rested on his faith in rural peasantry which we have no I disagree with GK but at least fun to try to sound like You want to talk about what we can do now bit you want to deal with what you can when the majority disagrees with You will fail in this Because you understand in does not mean understanding the particular circumstances at the Founding or I should say thinking about how they should have done it differently at that Certainly an awareness of those circumstances some of which obtain today is  perpetual the only way get a five year plan together I think politically anything can be but I have engaged politically in the past not to the extant of perpetual revolution what we it is waaaay too static nothing but constant I think some people are upset because the majority in America is not They think it is wrong that America was not established as a Catholic I certainly hope that was addressed to John and not me But America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to It was just thrown out there but not to This is a question you have to wonder I do understand how the mechanisms work the Founding and SO America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to It was Are you saying God providentially provide for the Founding for the liberty and exultation of the What is your it would be good for me if you could explain your position a bit Matthew Bond has replied to your objections multiple not that Maddison says shoot got multiple therefore we establish he says in the union there are so many religious sects that none of them will ever be able to opress the Jeffrey are you the Bond that I visited in Chicago as a child during a terrible Or was that someone Religious freedom protects the Catholic Faith in There is no provision in the no which restricts the There is no hindrance in our law preventing Catholics from running our country with But for the sake of John what is your I have lost it in the all for piety toward country as a kind of filial but why are you people all so against piety toward the middle we children of the middle ages I think any amount of explanation can I do recommend arguments He says it better than Matthew Peterson A sure sign of a corrupt lots of Senators in the mix for the The reason only have been elected President thus By virtue of their See More can we understand the founding in terms of religious dissidents setting up their own theocratic Is that My position Scott is that God did not inspire the Founding so that Catholics could persuade the conversion others en route to the establishment of a confessional I do not necessarily see Hobbes and Bacon and Newton as departures from the Middle They are just They do a different They did not kill the truths of all of the glory of These truths are still with We can still exercise them in this It awesome that there are so many factions that we oppress one Thank you What is a confessional state is this one which is set up around the The THREAD filial piety to the Middle Why not Filial piety to the Roman Why not filial piety to the Stone extended the definition too far to have any meaning Michael Beitia Massachusetts was essentially a theocracy in formative colonial Protestants think that God founded the US for them to When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political THREADS which have connected them with Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to having a Catholic the American founding provides the of society within which w can act John we do not Which is why going to boycott conservatives who are Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to having a Catholic I know my point He totally did that last John space so long as you adhere to certain religious need to read Murray to see the problems Catholics face in our not that we criticize the Which I am by advocating perpetual To be he specify that it had to be a Persecution is Catholicism not being the established state church reminding me just how right Bond is of whether we speak of Madison as the source of the problem that question can be dropped and his argument still There is not a whole lot of basis in the Federalist papers or in the founding documents that supports the idea that Catholicism was to be suppressed in The tragedy is not in the fact that Catholics do not know their perpetual revolution goes against the first good of Matthew above you wrote high Middle Ages Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state This led to the abominable corruption of the replete with wicked and this led to the reformation and the Can we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle In one sense they were certainly a came to an But was their decline and fall caused by subordination of the temporal to the Note that the popes who aggressively pushed the classical integralist position of two subordination of the temporal to the from St Gregory VII to Boniface were mostly good morally The worst popes come later when that model has been practically abandoned under the pressure of the forces that brought the middle ages to an revival of Italian city decline of the power outside of increase of usury It is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory remember but I missed that part of the Samantha no it If a true blood in the man If Catholicism were the state religion in imagine what this would do to our entertainment I thought we were all for piety toward the Roman You can have a bloodless not Caesar a I really want to be though he did You have made no attempt to understand the of fighting against the IMPRESSIVe Matthew is really a closet And get me I know that there is always an element of illusion in looking to the past for Link All Times Are Bad Times Gloriosus apparuisti inter principes sancte ideo diadema suscepisti de manu But it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all one is usually All times are bad what I was saying last I certainly did make an possible it was impaired by why is a dead end we go why got to the liberals and come around on the other side Reposting Pater is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory The Middle Ages was the glory of there is no But with the rise of Britannia in the it was just not possible to govern a civilized world through bishopric dynasties and Catholic So we have freedom of It is perfect for the growth of the Why do you need a Catholic just reading Peter book on everyone is so the Middle Ages have indoor plumbing QED  it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all one is usually relativist I do think I can make that But it is too huge for the We have truly grave ills today when the very foundation upon which any state is built is being Or or antibiotics Or novocaine Yes they did have indoor Check out the toilets in Stift Zwettl of our daughter We have a King in and happiness as our end in this Why complain about the But fair enough about people had indoor plumbing people have Clean drinking which people would not have had in the fact that Catholics do not know their PossibIy but protestant seem to have any cIue who Geesus Basic literacy for the I have Ietters missing on my indoor Clean water and sanitation not so YOU Listen there are plenty of uninformed Catholics and We could trade insults with one another about whose sect has done a worse job all day that would push us close to Most people in this country know how to Most people in the middle ages did In you can get acres and square feet for under far less than a bishop got during the Middle We all agree that some our age is better than previous But not Literacy for the masses is a mixed blessing uuuuuugh Protestantism is a way of uniting peopIe to controI the state ostensibIy for seIf CathoIicism has reverted bacq cIoser to its roots in the teachings of I love but not The masses by nature are a mixed I was Literacy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated you mean  The ability to read is the issue for me is what Protestants are doing to the Tea Or we can caII them to avoid insuIting but the Venn diagram is practicaIIy a I am not What do you mean by And by what grade ought basic literacy be DID NOT require literacy to function in society at a high And there was no printing medieval synthesis had all kind of weaknesses and internal but it had a what Luigi Giusani calls unitary It had conception of God as pertinent to all aspects of underlying every human experience excluding this the Middle Ages are not to be considered a more interesting epoch than others just because at that time everyone was more devout or capable of behaving in a less morally reproachable it was more because it was characterized by a unitary Middle Ages had No water Link Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth The eccentric French footballer Nicolas once of Real Chelsea now of West of basic literacy is But by what grade should one have achieved basic literacy to be a competant plumber and make per In supporting individual prosperity and the pursuit of happiness is a way support the The union is not supported by putting down true If a factious majority of rose they would be invited to join the union that already the Venn Diagram even close to a None of the evangelicals I spend time with are remotely Tea Partiers Without how are the future generations to read I would probably have to admit that Protestants have a better record on Literally all the Tea Partiers I know are as it happens for In if a factious majority of Catholics rose up pursuing the virtue of true they would be invited to join the union and to keep on keeping I think The Thread should do a line by line reading of Giles of Giles of On Ecclesiastical A Medieval Theory of World the fact that there was nothing for people to read in the Middle Ages is an argument against the supposed greatness of the middle not an argument against the importance of literacy define What is oh my goodness this is going too fast Samantha Curious if advocating wars and aII of or if advocating smaII Iow Some are quite I really think that liberal education is for the few by desire and And the ancients and medievals read I know about the drug war In society of course it is the difference betweening being a Tea Party adherent or trying to higacq it for sociaI hard to know whom you mean when you say Fair point Reminds me of answering the dorm phone and hearing someone say I speak with What is I follow just Comments on Medievals Comments on Tea Party Ashman John I really know much about going on in the Tea not that to be But I do know a lot of intelligent evangelicals and none of them are Tea Partiers To conced e to NationaI Organization for Marriage is run by a Very The only Tea Partiers I know are I thought there would be more proves point that Catholics have drunk the Madison koolaid more deeply than the My point is how things spin over Protestants came to escape bad government and formed a government that tread IightIy and avoided That no Ionger hoIds is so I need to start the Plank medieval beer purity your age Pater sure there are lots of Protestants in I just know CathoIic Churches have been doing worq in supporting even if immigration is now a That sets Protestants on fire Probably the difference between us is that John Ashman knows Protestants through political and I know them through But there is a huge difference in the teachings between a priest and a minister for the most the minister for my first wedding was a either american reIigion and poIitics is a John I would define true freedom and liberty as loving and serving God in this world with an alacrity of and forever in the I is in line with political writings which refer to beatitude as being the end of the Catholic In these freedoms are protected and guaranteed and are in no way limited by the Our in no forces any individual to deny any aspect of this Only in rare circumstances has this ever But in those changes have been Our government in no way persecutes In our government does not even tax the If anybody at any of the churches I have been a part of hated immigration or I know about does one when involvement is nearly always only visual What does one when all the and produces only knowing without that real knowledge that only comes from looking and What does one know he sees not the thing but an image of the or in TV news an abbreviation of an or online the abbreviation of an Peter Justice for Serbia funny how everything I read at the moment appears as a commentary on The Neverending how does one prevent the confusion between the liberty you have defined and liberty as the freedom to believe and expresswhatever one I know I link too but I would be interested in your opinion on Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth The eccentric French footballer Nicolas once of Real Chelsea now of West The Evangelical Crusade Against Immigration The Evangelical faction against immigration We hold this thread to be that all men are created that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable that among these are Liberty and the pursuit of But is liberty here the same as you defined Pater I have to tend my sick children but read it in a bit and get back to you John the liberty you and I have defined is Liberty to believe whatever one wants is not it was not what the Founders but is the cause of in the Bible and in You are right I it is a bit different in some but it is the same in some and consistent with in every liberty is not the same as Define Blessings on the sick think of them at freedom from external compulsion working subject to revision My year old daughter seems to think liberty is her Iiberty is the fuII reaIization of naturaI Liberty is my people so they can worship the true Religious Define religious freedom to be wrong Per all law is contrary to liberty license A question for The Thread from Goodreads before I leave for will be interviewing Marilynne Robinson about her new for the October Do you have any questions for the author about her previous her new her writing her Respond to this message with your include a few of the most interesting ones in our Suggest some questions  Every government ceIebrates their Iast None want and that my is the problem the highest of natural being the portion only of intellectual or rational confers on man this dignity that he is the hand of his and has power over his But the manner in which such dignity is exercised is of the greatest inasmuch as on the use that is made of liberty the highest good and the greatest evil alike not using it nothing more dangerous than perpetuaI perpetuaI as We have belongs only to those who have the gift of reason or Considered as to its it is the faculty of choosing means fitted for the end for he is master of his actions who can choose one thing out of since everything chosen as a means is viewed as good or and since as is the proper object of our it follows that freedom of choice is a property of the is identical with the will in so far as it has in its action the faculty of But the will cannot proceed to act until it is enlightened by the knowledge possessed by the In other the good wished by the will is necessarily good in so far as it is known by the and this the because in all voluntary acts choice is subsequent to a judgment upon the truth of the good declaring to which good preference should be No sensible man can doubt that judgment is an act of not of the The or both of the rational will and of its liberty is that good only which is in conformity with both these faculties are it is as is often that the reason should propose something which is not really but which has the appearance of and that the will should choose as the possibility of and actual are defects of the mind and attest its so the pursuit of what has a false appearance of though a proof of our just as a disease is a proof of our implies defect in human The will simply because of its dependence on the no sooner desires anything contrary thereto than it abuses its freedom of choice and corrupts its very Thus it is that the infinitely perfect although supremely because of the supremacy of His intellect and of His essential nevertheless cannot choose neither can the angels and who enjoy the beatific Augustine and others urged most admirably against the Pelagians if the possibility of deflection from good belonged to the essence or perfection of then Jesus and the angels and who have not this would have no liberty at or would have less liberty than man has in his state of pilgrimage and This subject is often discussed by the Angelic Doctor in his demonstration that the possibility of sinning is not but It will suffice to quote his subtle commentary on the words of our committeth sin is the slave of he that which belongs to it a it acts through a power outside it does not act of but through that as a But man is by nature he acts according to he acts of himself and according to his free and this is when he he acts in opposition to is moved by and is the victim of foreign committeth sin is the slave of Even the heathen philosophers clearly recognized this especially they who held that the wise man alone is and by the term was as is well the man trained to live in accordance with his that in justice and discovered we must now improve We have no agreement on the thread relatively like minded as to what is liberty or religious not so certainly not John collection Hold These He saw the problem of lack of but see such a shame that the onIy way to create a naturaI rights society is to vioIentIy impose it on the masses who wish to controI others by their own ReIigious Iiberty is a subset of naturaI your right to it ends at the rights of I had a great exchange with a professor of Iaw of Mathew Matthew FBFs and I had to expIain how naturaI rights per the and Amdendment incIudes not citizens If one thing that needs to be taught properIy in it is naturaI With we soIve What is the basis for natural And how are they through the will of the soviet his sentience is the basis for naturaI Iiqe an easter egg Ieft for the brain to It is fundamentaI because it is PeopIe try to modify it but with no grounds and no The probIem is the instinct to controI others for seifish  It would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated First of I have never met two people that believe the same thing the same including bishops and As for Nancy Pepsi is What good has her faith done except to use it as a weak argument with that have nothing else in common with I would rather be in a nation of Hindus Buddhists and Protestants all jumbled together and the coming out of them If there are bad give it years and they will be hey Kennedys are that sure If there are bad give it years and they wiII be times as expensive as cause bigger probIems than that which it seeqed to fix and require perpetuaI tweaqing to maintain an apperance of It wiII probabIy not be The Qennedies are Cathoiic Iiqe Beitia is a fuhrer in beware just maybe it is soviet His worship of StaIin is aII in the My daughter once asked me how an interview I had I told her it went really well but they apologized that did not have enough budget to buy She responded think you were allowed to buy people but only for limited periods of John Religious liberty is the freedom to love and worship God and to pursue highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness In the Founding we see reference to the right to the pursuit of In the other section of there is a right to religious The rights of the Bill of Rights could have been placed along with the rights in the But they Madison and Patrick Henry came together to fight hard for the Bill of to ensure the Union would not usurp individual but support them On both sides of the having a lax catholic ruler and would be just as bad as SSPX rule of I think good Catholic governance in America is a real We would have to think of what shape it would take and how it would come Jeff would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated First of I have never met two people that believe the same thing the same including bishops and BUT this is a consequence of our present confusion the culmination of a false understanding of I completely agree the last The lack of consensus is nothing but divisions and sects of of is an exaggeration of the ambiguity is clear in what you We have two meanings of happiness and religious liberty Religious liberty is the freedom to love and worship God and to pursue highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness In the Founding we see reference to the right to the pursuit of In the other section of there is a right to religious John thus having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more or at least less accidental I think most Catholics and most Americas do agree on many of the biggest and most important Everyone uses these things to form unity and quell Madison did this No they Most Catholics believe in Most Americans believe in they I We only agree on the last Compromised majorities are very problematic to me rather majorities formed by They are stronger only meaning more the adherents of them adhere to them more weakly we speak of supermajorities like the adherence to the belief in modern The Tea Party even agree with Which issues are biggest and most Most peopIe do NOT beIieve in If they did they wouId be scared out of their sqin to do the things they in what God has as much reIevance as the Tooth Fairy to most I pretend to beIieve in something that It saves my having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more or at least less you equivocating on Iiqe drinqing and saying Iove No you we believe in the one true The Bill of rights protects the right to exercise religion This is all it says But this is This is all it needs to to align the right of happiness with the full and free exercise of the Catholic Our history as a nation shows that the freedom of Catholics to exercise their Faith has in no way been put In Catholics can even run for the Now is not that not self just an And you are with two definitions of Which is the They held those truths to be And so do I take them at their The only tragedy here is that Americans born in Canada cannot become even Canadians born on the southern tip of Vancouver which is several miles south of most of the Seif evident was nothing more than a Iiterary fIourish to mean and you I If it were it have required Iogic or What is wrong with weak adherence to The goods of each state are the needs of the people are different agreement and consent are commodities of Especially on issues of low Southern California is in What does the other states care of their Are they offering to redirect a river in Another The true or some other I I will respect that you do But every political endeavor begins with first That is the nature of if you equivocate on then you equivocating hard Like Ashman adherence to compromise is like calling bud light beer and saying love when not even made from Is the party really a common good in any way The God of Nature and It is the true and you are being a silly totally god is not the one true God we as Catholics profess belief is what peopIe actuaIIy gnow about god and infinity is what they Saying someone is totally my silly is not being reasonable in Saying the Founders professed belief in the one True God is AND totally BeIief sits weII beIow science as a way to deaI with BeIief is a good way to handIe  The God of Aristotle is the same God of just that Thomas had more revelation and more If God Man wouId create him to fiII the big are you definitively saying that the Founding Fathers who wrote of the God of nature were really speaking of pie in the sky and not really God the true Please There is no scientific I wouId presume that God wouId be pretty obvious with an overwheIming they were speaqing in they were not stating that there is onIy one God and the onIy one of whom they are in the Where did I say that would leave nothing for But the evidence is Americans had their fiII of the true phiIosophy and  But I do that they seem to have had If it were be BeIief is not Things you understand one of the argumnents that Bond and I were trying to In the hands of true has been aImost compIeteIy associated with So they spoqe around just asking if you think the of is a fabrication and in no way the real but something Can you give me a yes or a Thomas said Aristotle and he were talking about the same The Church teaches in Her Dogma it is the same The God known by reason is the same God But there are proofs for the existence of These are not proofs of the existence of a Triune God that requires But Faith is founded on the authority of the one revealing and the miracles are the signs of the truth of Her She teaches that the Founders god is our If there were be Even the best proof of anything does not necessarily lead to God is a great badIy The Church teaches that the God known by which the philosophers knew existed by is the same Are you willing to answer my John Are you saying the God of the is not the same God as the God of So you can see why weaq proof go very far on many of Founders is not our Why the Romans Or the But John Even people who love beer love the same But they profess the same And compromise the other to exist and be enjoyed as There is no loss in this beer purity laws would be a true against the pumpkin beer But beer purity laws are not for the common good but the private good of the narrowly beer Bud Light even beer made from fricken CORN and LIS the compromise is tasteless and lacks conviction even in those who still make that Founders God is a generaI statement aImost Iiqe in the if the of of the Founders is not the same God as our then what or who is Are you willing to answer this I studied the Deists but I do have an CouId be the couId be the because it was a not a fixed conviction in the true I think it was a mere bIess beIeve in uh a said trying to be poIite with a common John and if the of is not the same God as a true then why are the rights of the true believer protected by the right to religious freedom in the Bill of Rights that the Founders were willing to die free to beIieve in If it were the one true there wouId be no need at aII for reiIgious non Not only that but the Bill of Rights were drawn up after the The founders are decent moral error seems not sufficiently that the operations of the as well as the acts of the are subject to the coercion of the But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to The rights of conscience we never we could not We are answerable for them to our The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty or no It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my If it be his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied reject it and be the stigma on Constraint may make him worse by making him a but it will never make him a truer It may fix him obstinately in his but will not cure Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against Give a loose to they will support the true by bringing every false one to their to the test of their They are the natural enemies of and of error Had not the Roman government permitted free Christianity could never have been Had not free enquiry been at the aera of the the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged If it be restrained the present corruptions will be and new ones Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a and the potatoe as an article of Thomas That does not which rhymes with Believers of the one true God have been persecuted by factions from within and without for Even from within the House of to it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty or no It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my Some guy who wrote the A beIiever in the one true God wouId never maqe this true false many now have no problem with this The Gewish God and the Christian God are totaIIy different  ambiguous Gefferson beIieved that freedom created better And he wrote his own BibIe for thinq God wouId get his reIigion right the first Not very this are faIIibIe and be trusted with anything they say about My beer You making a compromise if you making a sacrifice of This the bud light fan claims to love And the staunch catholic says it say Stone Arrogant not allowed to call itself Charles the devout Roman Catholic Founding Father who signed the in his own proves you scurrilous dogs are And you are so mangy I will not even share his words with That would be like throwing crumbs to the I will make you go look it And I hope you like my references to dogs and I through those in for dramatic effect I mean no I am very impressed with your dramatic And may the One true the God of our the God of Charles and the God of the Pope of bless God of IsraeI and God is aIways made in the image of His  CathoIic God God You argue with form Lucky Jim on the Middle he approached the Common Room he thought briefly about the Middle Those who professed themselves unable to believe in the reality of human progress ought to cheer themselves as the students under examination had conceivably been cheered by a short study of the Middle The hydrogen the South African Chiang Senator McCarthy would then seem a light price to pay for no longer being in the Middle Had people ever been as as as as as as bad at as dismally or as wrong as been in the Middle Age way of referring to the Middle He grinned at this last the staunch catholic says it say Stone Arrogant not allowed to call itself straw man German purity laws are very liberal the true sense They prevent the masses from confusing and tNET kind of presupposes This is Do we have an atheist on tNET Is anyone going to try to convert German purity laws are garbage Lots of my favorite beers qualify as Pater I did read your the Splendor of article I liked right up til the last true up WILL BE CAST INTO THE OUTER But a price willing to We still can call the other things by names other than No idea what tNET is MichaeI The Neverending this thread infidel knowing tNET is like not knowing there is a self evident maybe I have to read Giusanni for the full but the idea very fleshed  Having just finished vespers in our medieval where monks have been praying vespers since the Having just eaten supper in our refectory decorated with the portraits of medieval Austrian dukes and Hungarian whose donations to the monastery literally still pay for the food we It occurred to me that where we live might have something to do with our different judgements on piety toward the Middle that is a very good Pater Edmund And I go to in Every Why do you do Catholic or We have a Because if to heII and But Pater since you pay such good attention to the and present the ages argument so I was more convinced of my own opinion after reading the If New Belgium allowed to call the Trippel it probably get made and that is a completely decisive argument against garbage German beer purity laws not going to go see if they have any chocolate in the recreation Obviously never had New Trippel I like the Belgian we need to modify the German purity All would be John it would have been fun if you were at the Congressional Convention in You could have asked the Founders what they meant by You could have also asked what they meant by Then you could report back to did they really mean the same thing as what we It is too bad we cannot do we can I really have a modern caricature view of the middle I just think you Catholic revisionists revise too hard in the other direction Just what they reduced to ad hominem You guys have been ad homineming for thousands of comments Not i Ad I not you But I am anti revisionist I think revisionist is necessarily an insult You want to revise the received wisdom about the Middle not ad hominem My daughter Ioved beer as a year She puIIed an from the mini mart and so I bought it for The horrified Iooq she made when she tasted it was until the history books get And Columbus is painted as a vicious Samantha a And IincoIn as the great received I object to your epistemic And your equivocal use of the term right the whole basis of our you like to label Just returning the I think the Founders meant when they said nature sorry if that sounds or but just how I feel emotionally about an elephant never You shouId see what he caIIs but was it a Newtonian deist clockwork or the natural Aristotelian hylomorphic my I have a poem for Labels are helpful for mental AIso for portraying fashion the Founders were wrote in a very poIite manner and often used carefuIIy worded euphimisms and phrases to be as incIusive as possibIe and to avoid any obvious dismissaI of any freedom of reIigion be an issue if they thought everyone beIieved in the same thing or the same concept of Labels are also important for understanding nutritional information I see what you are the founders were misleading Thanks for saving they were unitfying us as best they They caIIed sIave trade in order to avoid ruffIed  No poIitician has ever misIead No one has ever patronized anyone to get a favorabIe  When the founders spoke of they were not speaking of work place Thanks for clarifying all this for the I feel we can all move and  I continue to be amazed at how basically reasonable our Scottegrine sounds after returning from a massive Maybe a Hyde type situation the Hulk pretty simple Stay away from a few issues and all Scott is the epistemic authority of tNET I need to repost the rules of the Which carries with it enormous I think I have come down with The difference between misIeading and poIite is that you are putting the truth in the nicest way possibIe when your wife says I getting You deny the you it in a nice box with a And the other person knows what you mean and everyone agrees to not dig Per way people in this country know how to Most people in the middle ages did heard from a respectable medievalist Noone at that this is probably what used to be reported as was being able to Latin and not being able to their native Noone seems confident that many or most people in the Middle Ages could read their native to be most medieval languages are just dumbed down French is what happens when Germans try to speak Latin When visigoths try tospeak it turns to spanish Try and To whatevs fixed  See Translation if true shockingly contrary to received I suppose you know what he bases this most people In the Why wouId someone read their native tongues in most What wouId exist for them to Not If That seems true what was written in the vernacular before drinking Probably have song books for those All those literate reading books from their local library during their long no printing press less How wouId you even teach someone to read their with what As I understand it was probabIy priests and educated business peopIe and schoIars from outside that transIated spoken word into the Iatin thanks for the flyby Peterson Eastern Europe even have an aIphabet untiI the Dante wrote in the vernacular in about I imagine there was some precedent for I get the Of the period we are talking about is long and varied and easy to pick out the bright No one talks about massive prostitution or widespread married priest or widespread greedy monk or the shameless corruption of politically powerful I So shove it peasants had loooots more We get day if lucky everyone remained spotless pure in their virtue until marriage too I I Popes are infaIIbIe so no sins were committed by the why do I hate it makes me defend things I like But after giving concrete examples of high points in actual time and place is not necessary in these sorts of  dude unless an apology for that slanderous tripe you posted on my profile not really interested in anything you Especially the common I believe it is best achieved when the fact that one wealthy billionaire has sexual relations with another it affects the welfare of millions of people they rule by virtue of their incestuously deficient genes and their disproportionate Wycliffe was trying to get the Bible into the common language in the so there must have been at least a few more people who read English than Latin among the local Lollard populace what kind of peasant gets a certainly not one a or vocation bwahahahaha But read and wrote it their common I I believe Maybe he meant although even In some times and places some scholars do make a strong claim they had a lot of Of they also had a lot of work to do keeping their living quarters and arrangements Come back here and engage with my skepticism There are seasons in which farmers have less to And in some times and places they almost constitute a union you want to piss off as a But if we are going to bitch about we may want to avoid ignoring the structural inequality of the situation for many throughout the Middle And then with a little freedom those people started to constitute a middle And this is what every modern intellectual hates right or He possibly mean InteIIectuaIs hate  the common Why set up a system in which both rich and few and and all in between can argue and duke it out and a majority faction will be hard to Why not just give power to an elite few to umpire and moderate the claims of all sides regardless of majority will screw mitigating Madison speaks of this in I but as it turns out sometimes giving supreme power to the few leads to oligarchic Which is why any sensible aristocratic system would try to structurally check power and force deliberation when it comes to the power of the few especially via the rule of the one and the many over and above trying to educate them well while explaining the hellfire that awaited them for abusing their Which is what Madison wants to do in regard to the ultimate power in a Republic find ways to check and force deliberation re the and add in powers of the one and the few into the system as such a This is why poIiticians sue for defamation for the most as weII as because aII thieves and gnosis cut off MarketpIace of I get the sense that they wouId make a if they had a better crystaI is through prayer that men come to the unitive knowledge of But the life of prayer is also a life of of dying to It cannot be for the more there is of the less there is of Our our our lusts for power and pleasure are So too is that greedy attachment to certain creatures which passes too often for unselfishness and should be not but And hardly less is the seemingly service which we give to any cause or ideal that falls short of the Such service is always and makes it impossible for us to worship God as we much less to know kingdom cannot come unless we begin by making our human kingdoms Not only the mad and obviously evil but also the respectable ones the kingdoms of the scribes and the good citizens and pillars of no less than the kingdoms of the publicans and being cannot be known by if we choose to pay our attention and our allegiance to something however creditable that something else may seem in the eyes of the Sonya is ill and has lost several children over a short that most empathetic writes is no worse situation for a healthy man than to have a sick Husband of the Cared deeply about humanity writ being sick this is making my life Why are you so but a really odd mix of deist and anarchism I did not post slander against you I was merely representing your I was just saying how imprudent I felt it was for the founders of the college to describe Western academia as a That is nope it was slander I got caught up in the wash too consists in loving a creature more than we love There are many kinds of but all have one thing in The presence of is obvious in the grosser forms of sensual or the pursuit of wealth and power and Less but none the less it is present in our inordinate affections for things and And even in most heroic sacrifices to high causes and noble has its tragic For when we sacrifice ourselves to any cause or ideal that is lower than the less than God we are merely sacrificing one part of our unregenerate being to another part which we and other people regard as more still still prevents us from obeying perfectly the first of the two great God can be loved perfectly only by those who have killed out the the most nobly sublimated forms of When this when we love God as we should and therefore know God as the tormenting problem of evil ceases to be a the world of time is seen to be an aspect of and in some inexpressible but no less really and the chaotic multiplicity of life is reconciled in the unity of the divine it was It was Sorry you do not see it this  you could be sorry for being a bombastic but that may be asking too you sound like more of an anarchist than I not talking about you calling me a no worse than me calling you a talking about you calling me a and calling shame on me for supposedly disrespecting the Blessed Mother whom I love I was not involved in that conversation that got you in such a What I think of the topic and the way it was handled is You accused me of things you have no right You slandered Michael So sit down and shut unless going to I do not owe you an and you should have the humility to not need I am learning how to converse with you super intelligent It can be a challenge sometimes when you remarkable scholars of Aristotle and Thomas say things like the Founders did not mean God when they said and the You should not have been in regards to I am glad you love are wrong I sense another blah you just have the you missed the point and got huffy for no and read or understand and I think the protestants some believe in the same God as I But the reality is We should keep the distinction between the reality of God separate from the varied of God  Chaucer was writing in English before which writings was a translation of Consolation of is post middle Piers  dates of life I I think of the century as the high point of the middle ages with Scotus and Ockham so if the middle ages stretch from to got too much time to generalize but I think everything from or so would be middle or maybe As far as the middle ages begins with Anselm and Abelard  Boethius and Augustine are Augustine Alaric how about the Venerable I think of those things as because I generally think of the Scholastic period as the medieval period which would mean to at least Suarez and John of so the claim is that most people could read their native language between and Piers Plowman was a man out standing in his Something like that God is not my God does that invalidate the I think so at the very reports about literacy are often too since the statistics of the time generally mistake ability to read Latin for ability to read due to the way people of the time what did they have to Chaucer Bocaccio This the United States of there are as many Gods as there are people to believe in You I might be confusing philosophical schools with historical periods pretty Allah is not my God  There is a huge gap in my awareness of from somewhere around Nero to God is Different religions have varying degrees of understanding of but our Constitution supports and defends the free exercise of the Catholic Is there a problem with Everyone imagines God so one person one I I think one could argue that intentionally denying divine attributes leads to a different conception of God and thus to in a different I am not sure what happened between the glory of Christendom and How did we get from a Catholic understanding of governance to where we are and is that my point like I wrote we need to distinguish between God as He is and God as we conceive of Him Evidence of which is that heard that there is a dispute among Christians as to whether to call their God And there were whole encyclicals written about what Chinese word to use for God I think grace has a lot to do with that intersection between natural belief and belief by the Chinese I need an You need to a And there is no need to tell me I need I have your issues with As for staying you seem to imagine that I was reading and following the conversation and tacitly approving by not joining Your sarcasm is regarding conversing with remarkable is Allah that may make a difference Edward heard that the whole thing involves a denial of the and a denial of the true and not my God the clockwork Deist God suffers from a similar Let it We were having a conversation about the Immaculate and some people distorted it into a discussion of crude human which was breathtakingly and you were And now you come begging for an Forget I think it is entirely possible for a Founding Father to have certainty about the existence of the true then fall into a kind of idolatry and worship something We are all prone to this But this is not to say that God in the founding documents secretly means something as some seem to be saying let it take your own advice Are you really blaming me for not being present when a conversation Either I was sleeping or out doing something When I came back TNET was What is wrong with AIIow me to be the bigger dick Geesus even know he was the Son of God and he was probabIy And immacuIate conception is a stoIen beIief retroactiveIy inserted into you think we worship the same BEGGING for an Fuck You never apologized for telling people to go to hell trolling too far I think I need to up my see what Ashman Here we everyone unite around a common Even I try to treat the deeply held beliefs I accept with a touch of respect Ashman might have been referring to Which is To everyone I am sorry for my strong It is directed at why are you blaming Isak for stuff I not fair to anyone Can we please block this lunatic from TNET non est Deus insapiens dicit Who wouId Geesus teII to See Translation The answer is Ash I appreciate your attempt to move the conversation along to something else But it may not be I was about bring up polytheism as the easiest example of different you couId try that  Shane Koyczan From the album and Graphic Is A Song I Know All The Words available for here Not the same as Scott made me I feel very comments later and nothing new under the sun Noone is a medieval Not a medieval still shocked about this literacy in the middle ages in case anyone nihil novi in linea infinita the Romans taught them Romans Go Home Monty Life of Brian Subscribe to the Official Monty Python Channel here John welcome to why did political governance decline from a Catholic view to a more secular one between the glory of Christendom and the Was this principally because of or was there a population explosion of unruly peasants that needed to be controlled by a more Hobbesian and can the Faith flourish in Are you suggesting a desire for a state I doubt the British Anglicans look to the queen as of the and desire that the system would be perfect if it were just more Noone is a medieval on the committee producing a critical edition of so he has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Medieval Or is it a desire for a american I think Noone also has a degree is medieval he studied at PIMS in All the medievals could They just lied to Baron From what he says about that program definitely gave one a good sense of the medieval historical well then just going to suspect remembering him Defer to the Samantha heard him say things to that effect two or three Wikipedia puts literacy in the Has he published anything to that effect that I can In Europe as a I think the context was Europe as a whole Here is learning to trust the Trust in Me Jungle Book Kaa singing in from the Disney THE JUNGLE BOOK I think ask him for sources next time I see Sorry to be so just a very surprising I am starting the freedom literacy yourself from the epistemic THAT should keep the medieval stereotype going another A more liberal version of Samantha meets a considerably more dyspeptic Pater bad vicar mitchell and web bad vicar These are all the notes I have from that particular part of initially they wanted to educate their people to Latin and preach preaching often in vernacular in medieval latin means you could read not just read John German purity laws do not distinguish beer from non and they are They distinguish lagers from ales older definitions of those where lager was a hopped and ale was hops only began to be used in the The reason for the German purity and especially the requirement of only hopped and no grute was because of a growing by newer to add toxic plants to the Whereas anise and mugwort and the like were newer brewers had been less adding deadly nightshade for Rather than punish brewers who used toxic they simply banned using anything other than hops as an But that is to mandate a particular style of not distinguish beer from non beer It also prevented other additives besides hops in hopped So both grute ales an Oatmeal Chocolate Stout would be banned Best beer I ever brewed was based on this Gruit Ale Unhopped Brewing Herbs and Recipes Gruit Ale Unhopped Brewing Herbs and Recipes ALEXANDRE BESSETTE Joel I know if we can be friends I have literally never been so offended in my entire It was a And I thought it was mostly offensive towards the pro state religion kinda like the Johnson quote less signifying a gradeschool level not complete Just not the reading of all the great works in the If I ever say spiritual but not you have my permission to put me down for my own I think those characters actually resemble anyone THen maybe you have called that woman a of The Vicar gets all the good lines in that particularly are you testing is a place of a very recent and NOT one I think is going to catch Well I know the literacy rate exactly in the middle It did increase in some areas to a but I think those were execeptions as some small including one that tried to restore the Roman senate in the The rise of cathedral colleges and finally universities did see a rise in among the clergy and religious certainly among nuns think it spread to laity that much until later is why many positions in government were still held by But we could at least say people as ignorant as many would have you Jacques accounts of interviews with regular peasants and the like is fascinating for both showing the country simplicity of but an amazing breadth of knowledge among the lowest They knew their faith better than many literate Even knew the bible better in their retelling of biblical stories were often embellished in hilarious I only meant the comparison insofar as you were on the pro religious liberty Rewatching the I can see how the unjust comparison would My humble I just put a warm beer in the fridge and two minutes removed it again when I went to grab a This is a do we believe in the same IDK your I believe going to take the kids to the lego store this It seems to me that Avicenna and Thomas Aquinas believed in the same why at they believed in a God existence could be demonstrated by the same I highly doubt you can prove unmoved first probably even but not Joshua is making me nostalgic for the medieval age and becoming Hear Old skool epistemic authority was more but how good a Muslim was but the former part is what is referred to by Romans that I know For the invisible things of from the creation of the are clearly being understood by the things that are his eternal power and so that they are Surat The Noble القرآن الكريم Surat O People of the What Protestants do you think worship a different God than Just ones with heretical views on the clearly They really Christians though I think Avicenna was probably a fairly good At Averroës criticizes him for mixing religious teachings for are only persuasive and not primary with Mormons certainly nor Jehovahs I think one can argue that Mormons I exactly worship the same God because they seem to be actually they are more like polytheists like In I think the Church has declared Mormon baptisms to be invalid Mormons do post mortem baptisms If the Church says we have valid then I think you need to acknowledge that we have the same God Why I answer the Peregrinator way It gets tricky when you start mixing up natural religion with heresy and false But pretty sure that Deism false Jurt want to argue None of those guys are Protestants I know how far to push always liked Mormons and because they came up with a whole new book to justify their religion rather than trying to claim that the Church understand Her own book Even an atheistt can validly baptise an atheist  The answer is And a Mormon can valid baptised a buddhist you grow up in a predominantly Mormon area Edward Valid baptism the only mark But that answer the question of whether a would be it Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of more commonly known as the Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the validity of such it seems appropriate to explain the reasons that have led to this decision and to the resulting change of THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of more commonly known as the Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the It because they are henotheists But under Hinckley they are trying to be accepted by mainstream deemphasizing the wackier I think one could argue that validly baptize because they think the Trinity is what the Church says it because they perpetrated greater You like them because they seem to me to be more I had an argument years ago with a Baptist in a weird sect of Baptists that was based entirely on a misreading of They only baptized in the name of not the trinity not intending to criticize any particular Mormons can validly the same way an atheist they intend to do what the Church if a Catholic mom gets in an accident and her baby is dying and a Mormon comes to and she says I am I want you to baptise the baby that would be valid criticizing all of them a question for you of the sacraments require a very minimal intention by the minister of the what the church Even if the minister misunderstands or disbelieves what the church proclaims is done in the various he still validly baptizes as long as he intends to that thing called a lot of ink has been shed questioning whether marriages are invalid the intention of the ministers the married is the married couple intends to use or intends to probably get or something like they probably do valid baptisms then Why the greater requirement for intention in Episcopalians are ceasing to be actual in that many validly baptise sanctifier Same goes for the mainstream forgive any errors in What does Unam Sanctam I Intending to use abc does not invalidate a marriage I already got lambasted for John heard the opposite of Joshua Kenz There a greater there are stupid American tribunals trying to even though stare decisis is not a thing in canon law Ilots of secular marriages been to lately even have And then you heard wrong I missed Joshua was my So is the old school answer for degree of intention need more or less the same in Marriage as in Scott called me a Heretic on fb for that With Mormon wonder if they could form the correct given their own preconceptions about are you handing marital rights over to the That is the essence Intending to hold off or only have or even not to have any children does not invalidate in and of nor does the belief in the possibility of divorce An atheist so why not seriously grow up in it a a ponzi scheme It matter what they The sacramental context differs a horribly heretical priest who disbelieves in transubstantiation will still perform a valid mass proper matter and even a super minimalistic intention of the thing catholics call a And that is so incredible and the handling of marriage in recent years is puzzling What if you intend Now if a couple marries with the intention of having it only last a few that would be If one marries with the intention to not have such if the other spouse requested they would refuse and such that not having hildren as it a condition of their that would be Sure it does matter what they the Mormon person if to do what the Church is necessary for a valid sacrament then if the Mormon intends a Mormon baptism or it be valid Edward I think Joshua Kenz is a mormon could perform a in an emergency on the battlefield or But Joshua still be a question the CDF has answered in the concerning something has changed since Intended would also make it my lots of null Benedict raised an eyebrow over it a few years even if a Mormon or atheist baptizes after the emergency if the person survives then there would still be a conditional baptism But to marry thinking no children is not as long as the no children is explicitly or a condition of Just as if one intended infidelity from the get and so anyone and I mean anyone can baptise Just because I am an atheist or a buddhist or even a does not prevent in from a valid intention careful remember the canons of Trent prima facie acceptance of the possibility of divorce invalidate the part of the divorce can be the thing that is illicit a baptism at the request of a dying mother is by its very circumstance and place not a Mormon What matters is the sacramental And that is there By I mean the baptism given by Mormons to Mormons in a Mormon So the difference is that a mormon could intend to do what christians same as any other minister of on the battlefield for But the question is what they intend in the specifically mormon ceremony called  I guess I accept this and I mean anyone can baptise in but I wonder about what the conditions for a valid baptism are in what exactly is to do what the Church Langley it means I intend to do a even though I think it bullshit and fine I will do your That it does not all the other person has to do is pour the water and say the right  the right If you are doing it as part of a or be an obvious example of lacking the right But to implies a question about whether to what degree preconceived notions can hinder formation of a correct Funny thing I deeply believe that Jesus was gay and that he never believed he was the son of anyone aside from But your heretical and incorrect beliefs bother or offend I just find them to In the case of most of the the required is pretty darn as far as I can And the possible exception of which even by account is at least slightly higher than divorce is per se Even in the rare case where divorce is even it is granted as a privilege or not a And only by the The state has no authority to claim a divorce a since the Church does nto recognize dissolution of the bond performed by the or annulments of the and since the conditions of separation with the bond remaining often are different in the Church than separation in civil law so too the we are allowed to as it were a legal civil divorce for purely civil But only when separation is justified I have never met a Catholic who followed Church law on there is law Who is John gayness is a modern No one was gay before why the hypothetical is could the Mormon invalidly baptize in extremis because he intends to do what the Mormon church I CANON any one that the Church in that she declares for many a separation may take place between husband and in regard of or in regard of for a determinate or for an indeterminate let him be Perhaps I just understand what people mean by the Edward my understanding is that it is for that reason that the Church requires conditional rebaptism for cases like Then Langley he would not be doing what the Catholi mother IOW not my example The intention need in marriage is not a slightly higher account Joel HF those examples of invalid intentions involve actually repugning the thing that is if a priest is he may still celebrate though he believe in But he can say the words over the matter and not intend the What is law on SEPARATION WITH THE BOND REMAINING Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses Although it is earnestly recommended that a moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the gave cause for or also committed Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the It is if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority after having investigated all the is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in In all when the cause for the separation conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established After the separation of the spouses has taken the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to No other Well moralists usually allow for a temporary by mutual when a father works as a migrant worker But renders common life too is a broad pretty I suppose I missed that line on the first the part is definitely a hard Catholic teaching on marriage is pretty hard But then so is Christ in the Well of course it We call it the bond of marriage for nothing Vinculo Matrimonii  seem like it takes into account the potential for power differential within a and the intense pressure there might be on the innocent spouse not to immediately disrupt common life  I like the wording better De separatione mensae et Can Coniuges servare debent vitae coniugalis nisi iusta causa eos Can Propter coniugis alter manente ius habet etiam in vitae nisi in crimen aut eidem causam vel illud expresse aut tacite vel ipse quoque idem crimen Tacita condonatio si coniux postquam de crimine adulterii certior factus cum altero coniuge maritali conversatus praesumitur nisi sex intra menses coniugem adulterum expulerit vel aut legitimam accusationem Can Coniux sive iudicis sententia sive propria auctoritate legitime nulla unquam obligatione tenetur coniugem adulterum rursus admittendi ad vitae potest autem eundem admittere aut nisi ex ipsius consensu ille statum matrimonio contrarium Can Si alter coniux sectae acatholicae nomen si prolem acatholice si vitam criminosam et ignominiosam si grave seu animae seu corporis periculum alteri si saevitiis vitam communem nimis difficilem haec aliaque id sunt pro altero coniuge totidem legitimae causae auctoritate Ordinarii et etiam propria si de eis certo et periculum sit in In omnibus his causa separationis vitae consuetudo restauranda sed si separatio ab Ordinario pronuntiata fuerit ad certum incertumve coniux innocens ad id non nisi ex decreto Ordinarii vel exacto Can Instituta filii educandi sunt penes coniugem et si alter coniugum sit penes coniugem nisi in utroque casu Ordinarius pro ipsorum filiorum salva semper eorundem catholica aliud It gives some sense of what constitutes grave harm or making common life too Suh as becoming a heretic or trying to raise the children as heretics not really I would have expected it to be you should read the canonical commentary on It is generally and this that having relations under some form of duress can rebut the presumption of tacitly condoning always back to sex with you guys I call protestants idolaters and this is where you take be disappointed if it The day you guys compromise on your various strict principles is the day I can stop wondering if the claims are all very kind of you and with regard to the idolatry Michael I was told by the chaplains at TAC that there was no need for me to be conditionally and I was baptized by a Presbyterian So either the TAC chaplains were playing pretty fast and loose with my or there is firm consensus that standard Presbyterian baptisms are valid valid Baptism does not necessarily imply same but like I not sure how hard to push this one Mormon baptisms valid because they baptize in the name of their who is We baptize in the name of the same that for a Catholic the reason that Presbyterian or other protestant baptisms are valid is because of the Catholic Church So our baptisms are I see another way to read I just answered that Presbyterians intending to baptize the Catholic Church though yeah they are  We intend to baptize the way Scripture tells us to We care how the Catholic Church baptizes where you got a separate I think but with regards to same I wonder how much can be made from TULIP  on that off to the lego store have If they intending in the same from the point of view of the converts would have to be re baptized or conditionally I think it is intended the same but because we have the same beliefs about not because trying to do the Catholic Church as in the case of the Morman emergency baptism example You I wish meant people started writing commentaries on the Sentences or the Summa or some such work Instead we get a bunch of historical studies written by people trying to get Now I want to play with You be nice if some of these arguments were separated out nicely so that people could follow up on them On some sort of This discussion of baptism reminds me of a conversation I once overheard between my My mom was complaining about my lapsed faith and quoting the text in I Corinthians about unbelievers being by the faith of a believing My dad wryly your faith may be what is me but my church is what is your the standard is not to do what the Church but to do what the Church You can have your heretical beliefs about what baptism but you are still intending to do a You may think what the Catholic Church believes about baptism is wrong while doing but you are still intending namely to do what Christ ordered the apostles to The fail at even this not because they believe the same about but what they call baptism is only called that by differs not from baptising someone in the name of Xenu or in the name of Shiva and Put it this when an atheist does an emergency it because even though he believe any of he is still intending to do what Christians and when he says the words Son and Holy however much he believe those Persons and however deficient is understanding of what we believe about he still intends to be doing as Christians do and to be saying the names of our Whereas Mormons really intend a different and only use the same names with pure which is why it might as well be in the name of Edward might take off more if it constantly down during the day If you have an account with you now can ask a question by just sending an email to as long as the email address sending from is the email address associated with your Socraticum Discussion group for the philosophically minded Joshua never seen it And I keep an eye on at least seven or eight times a It is much of the an Next time I see it I will send you a screenshot curious as to could you also include a date and time so that I can consult the WHO CAN RECEIVE person not yet baptized and only such a person is able to be I got kicked off of the TAC alum fb positively In case of even a with the required can baptize by using the Trinitarian baptismal The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for As regards children who have died without the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of as she does in her funeral rites for the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be and tenderness toward children which caused him to the children come to do not hinder allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without All the more urgent is the call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy  In Why the Tower of Orthanc on the regarding If any one that this sin of in its origin is and being transfused into all by not by is in each one as his taken away either by the powers of human or by any other remedy than the merit of the one our Lord Jesus who hath reconciled us to God in his own made unto us and or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is both to adults and to by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the let him be Is that your collection or at the a small piece of the collection We always grew up being told that Lego was the one thing that you could never have too much of Anybody on Spotify and have a great playlist for an abandoned craft Around here called that makes it sound so permanent here see ya tNET I want in on this philosopher craft Michael Beitia what did I say about touching no all the My sister my legos from youth and now they are locked in a storage unit somewhere in Southwestern I still have After taking the kids to the movie they told me have all the spaceman ones at Anyone have any tips to give me for reading the I have such a hard time following it every time I read it and should probably do a better job since I have to lead a discussion on it next Cliff Well here is the odyssey Odyssey Thug Notes Summary and Analysis I have heard the And all they say I love Oh I asked for advice from my husband and now he showed me how to Wikipedia every on my I knew there was a reason I like this kindle kindle is being used because of the ease of reading while taking care of a tip skim the list of ships tip Armor is important widows have a homey feel at Caleb is What kind of craft is Live Like Isak By Isak Benedict Save tip Book one starts with book ends with tip DONT mess with Deaths in the a Classics Infographic As buy this as a poster in the Or buy this as a poster in the go here to find out exactly outline the whole Worthwhile if you have Lauren if you can find anything by Glenn I have found his lectures and commentaries on the Iliad quite Why Literature Permanence and the Politics of Reputation Through an examination of the work of poets this is too funny Badass of the Diomedes The ultimate list of all badasses past and that site Michael salty On I like to fucking warn people Next thing you know we will start engaging in impassioned Pretty sure I managed to go comments without dropping the big one and then came the troll again Matthew no impassioned arguments allowed the for is that working in a blue male I hear the approximately times a never in reference to but more like the trashy way of saying I do this at with Jacket this comic occasionally contains strong language may be unsuitable for unusual It does tend to lose its rhetorical power with frequent I think the point with those words you say on Assuming they have seen the original if is it permissible to allow children to watch last three Star Wars Great I say If they want to do it themselves when left the their there was an argument at the pit when I was a senior that went along the lines that the must always be said ended it by muttering fucking the point of having words you use unless you use My older kids have seen The are natural born I it is Matthew Star Wars Episode What Went Wrong The true account of why Episode I was simply Jar is a key to all Matthew you earlier today invited some thoughts on Federalist I posted what follows below on my thread about but I am posting it here as well in response to your Returning to the problem of embracing division as a which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully it is worth noting that and has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a In Federalist Madison employs this principle with a policy of by opposite and rival the defect of better might be traced through the whole system of human private as well as We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public Since the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different As for the government as a the compound republic of the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate society itself be BROKEN into so many interests and classes of that the rights of or of the will be in little danger from interested combinations of the The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of Many governments long before the American experiment had similar The problem is willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for As he famously must be made to counter The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and After one serves the when one acts or so we are Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of and as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for In Choruses from the Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment They constantly try to escape From the darkness outside and within By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be But the man that is shall shadow The man that pretends to This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the I therefore do not find persuasive Matthew argument that proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these Madison says in Federalist that is the end of It is the end of civil It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be or until liberty be lost in the But what does Madison mean by Based on this passage and others like it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with For justice is as Thomas defined habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the And so we are left with What life have if you have not life There is not life that is not in And no community not lived in praise of I got dragged to that movie the summer between Junior and senior AWEFUL Matthew a companion piece to the above from my thread on There you if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian and the words of Jesus Christ in the all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is I do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political the business of which is the care of which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of That Madison rejected this ancient ideal I undeniable since in Federalist Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle that is another matter that I cannot address here at the In response to your claim that the Christian religion and the words of Jesus Himself suggest that something supernatural is needed to overcome I wholeheartedly But that is quite a different point and it does as you seem to put Madison in the Christian City of God makes this There Augustine insists that the natural virtues are essential to human even though he is quick to point out their The natural virtues are necessary but not sufficient to perfect We need the theological virtues of hope and charity to overcome the factions in our But that is not because the natural virtues are Augustine does not reject them or the effort required to establish therm in our He simply insists that the natural virtues cannot on their own make us for the natural virtues require constant effort so that we might win the battle within ourselves against our own propensities to even when we defeat temptation and act courageously and we still cannot be at rest because it is a constant battle against our fallen Yet this does not mean we should be indifferent to the effort to discipline ourselves in order to be After despite our fallen we are ordered both naturally and supernaturally to what is there is no agreement here between true Christianity and willingness to give up on the causes of faction and deal with the effects I have argued elsewhere that I think view of nature is and that is the essential difference between Madison and the traditional Christian Having faction in our souls is not our natural it is our fallen Yet we remain oriented by nature to the and that orientation is not destroyed by original the political art is obliged to address the causes of faction even though it as you rightly point get rid of faction without supernatural Jeffrey but this argument is odd to It seems evident on the face of things that people have their private interest and pursue given the fallen state of and the propensity to it happens that frequently men do not attempt to gain their natural or supernatural That is the matter of Taking Federalist or out of the context of a rhetorical and persuasive argument for the formation of a and making it a political philosophy in is and I think unfair to the I see why it is odd to unpack the assumptions behind a political especially one that has been hailed as the sole contribution by an American to the history of political The rhetorical context does not change the principles fallen man is known to pursue his The question how does the political art address this proposal takes a certain Why can we not critique especially since it has been so formative of the American Aristotle himself spends more time discussing the which is what the American Republic is than any other But Aristotle first sets forth the principles by which he can meaningfully descend to the And he puts those principles into play in his He does not abandon the notion of a best regime in his effort to analyze actual existing is not the same as Of But possible cannot be evaluated without a view to the That is the hallmark of classical political I gotta bow out Listening to of and drinking cheap TJs But be Appreciate the It is clear that Aristotle thinks kingship or aristocracy is This is so because in both cases the ruling power contributes to the good When Aristotle investigates the lesser regimes of oligarchy and he rates and ranks them according to the standards established in evaluating aristocracy and polity a mix of the demos and the that the best I think that aristocracy or kingship being the best is subject to and Aristotle spends much time on the mixed regime because what is the best under normal human conditions  Can we all admit that we live in a different regime than the one Madison et There are a number of senses of best that have to be sorted Best in the absolute Best Best for most times and It is clear that kingship and aristocracy are best simply because he uses their contribution to the good life as the measure by which others are Aristotle rewrites the demands of the oligarchs and the democrats so that their claim to rule is based on what they contribute to the good not just mere What is the point of reading the Matthew Historical Getting to the true meaning of the Political say historical but the one with I think Matthew would say getting to the true meaning of the but that would also be part of political But when he he can stay am sure he will I think we are living in the logical extension of the regime Madison The principles seem unchanged to though equality is fast replacing liberty as the political Locke leads to and from there to is the only virtue in the but tolerance as a dogmatic principle rather than as part of the virtue of yes it and leads to the worst sort of promotion of vice and outlawing But I think that is distinct from the founding The real question is should I have cognac or some sort of gin Scotch All this political stuff is a sign of intellectual laziness an Locke was supreme And Locke is the source of the toleration principle you see in That was the not exactly Why as we will see in during periods of intellectual of intellectual during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical during these periods one does nothing but in charge of the Charles De Koninck that preview is The First Amendment is pure So are the principles of social rightly I allows free individuals a social sphere within which to The modern voices scream down all who make a choice to act contrary to the will of the loudest faction The modern tolerance factions are just trying to rectify the plight of oppressed minorities and if you understand For in Locke we live and move and have our a lot of the enlightenment political principles can be traced back to the eve of the High Middle Scotus is the first to enunciate the view that the consensus populi is the legitimating principle of government his commentary on the book of the William of Ockham basically invented the notion of subjective new in Locke is the idea that the right to property is the fundamental subjective Charlie Such a talented But Blazing waste of And when he comes out with that country album after years of silence after years of debauchery and then It does something for And when he sings this I think he means Charlie Rich Feel Like Going Version Produced by Billy Issued in as the B side Consent of the population may not be the legitimating but it is a sine qua factually Which causes him problems when it comes to important things like But Locke puts it all in a pretty Ferrier Peter Augustine Lawler Ralphism Being As I complained I seem to get things to My guess is that the political theories of people like Suarez and such de more People like Locke generally wrote to get the masses on so should I stick around for HANK WILLIAMS Never Get Out Of This World Deutsche MGM Deutsche Schellack MGM okay if this turns into country music Feel Like Going Home Charlie Rich Lyrics Below Disclaimer Under Section of the Ferrier on the other might be just God love you but I hate your musical and sure that statement is convertable Little Bobby Dylan and Johnny Old country charlie rich does jazz in his old Charlie Rich Pictures Paintings Charlie Rich performing Pictures Paintings in Claudio Monteverdi Il ritorno di Ulisse in Patria Ferrier Merle Waylon Jennings sings about fallen human nature before becoming completely steeped in Waylon Jennings Lay It Down Waylon Jennings Lay It Down from The Journey Six Strings Away Box down on different WAYLON JENNINGS Merle Haggard The Side Of Me Ferrier How did you Matthew Ferrier Merle Haggard side of me A modern reflection of the song in our oof Waylon doing a song Charlie Rich made Waylon Good Time got the Blues I just stay away from the lonesome So as we will see in during periods of intellectual of intellectual during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical during these periods one does nothing but Thomist cannot view history the history of philosophy With Thomas we assist in an immense intellectual effort of Thomas was a superman of formidable and one can say that the difficulties that he encountered in his milieu were proportional to his Human ignorance has something of the Although it is not more cruel than Today we are spoken to always of the persecution of when in the difficulties which this man encountered were childishness compared to those of The middle ages finished by digesting Thomas a The regional excommunications of his doctrine were and the Dominican Order set to the But the intelligence of humanity was extremely fatigued by this immense The curve Scholastic quarrels became more and more Dogmatic theology would soon cede precedence to moral moral theology also decapitated into theology of the essence of virtue soon became the pure absence of During periods of intellectual theologians speak only of In order to justify they fall into a vicious We speak a great deal about because there is a great deal of they The descent of the curve lead us to who has exercised so profound and an influence on all modern Luther succumbed to He allowed himself to be led by this current of Here are his own am no more than a man apt to let myself be led by society by mass movement of the and other Ego otiosus et crapulosus sedeo tota I am here from morning to evening and get and Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard and Willie Nelson and Merle Edward Langley Not that anything Wrong with Could answer so morality of slaves wants to realize a return to the amorphous indetermination of The morality of masters wants to create an armature of habit which elevates us above which renders us Hence the emphasis on The morality of slaves is essentially It tends to the destruction of all It It It destroys It tends towards it becomes the categorical It sets itself above It has a horror of because the latter opens horizons too it gives us Vertigo must be ruled by but force is requires a positive and constructive This morality is because it uses God as an Having exiled having banished it that it justifies To do it declares all laws divine after having turned away from God toward whom morality should elevate after having demolished which is the very essence of Laws become extrinsic constraints which destroy They aim at the destruction of the although the passions are the triumph of and although they are essential to They establish feebleness as an Oh never I see You have not succumb to fatigue and cannot condescend to speak of mere morality or the archetonic And here I thought you were being humble Another Willie Nelson Me and Paul Wine I think CDK here is indicating that there an evil seems to be paralleling this sentiment of is generally for a philosopher to set fire to another philosopher in Smithfield Market because they do not agree in their theory of the That was done very frequently in the last decadence of the Middle and it failed altogether in its But there is one thing that is infinitely more absurd and unpractical than burning a man for his This is the habit of saying that his philosophy does not and this is done universally in the twentieth in the decadence of the great revolutionary General theories are everywhere the doctrine of the Rights of Man is dismissed with the doctrine of the Fall of Atheism itself is too theological for us Revolution itself is too much of a liberty itself is too much of a We will have no Bernard Shaw has put the view in a perfect golden rule is that there is no golden We are more and more to discuss details in A opinion on tramcars his opinion on Botticelli his opinion on all things does not He may turn over and explore a million but he must not find that strange the for if he does he will have a and be Everything I am being humility involves knowing the extent of powers and acting I studied enough speculative philosophy to begin practical philosophy parting as I go watch Black Flag TV Party PARTY TONIGHT PARTY TONIGHT PARTY TONIGHT PARTY TONIGHT us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without How can these TAC these renowned scholars of Aristotle and assert such claims as the Founding Fathers of America believed in a false or that without baptism there is no hope for or that material body was not but only her Is this false claim anything less than a material Why are they shocked when someone calls them out on They should thank the one pointing out the the TACers here are generally being more subtle than your sweeping accusation can no tac grad said that The right to property is a very naturaI Anyone with chiIdren knows My year favorite saying was and when started with Scott you twist words to find And if that dont invent new no hope for who said Besides even to not hope is to deny no It depends what you mean by in no hope for if you just mean an infusion of sanctifying grace through some that statement is if you think someone can get to heaven without some kind of If you mean that people who receive the ordinary Baptism of water get to then that statement is Where is the subtlety in statement that the Founders God was a different God that the true Am I missing Is this a nuanced approach to Socratic to state something outlandish in order to lead to Please tNET in point of no one denied the dispute generally involved how to present the necessity of Baptism in an evangelical It depends on what you mean by I think what you mean is it depends what you mean by that is a very sophisticated and nuanced twist to Thank There is a real question of how to know when two people who claim to believe in God actually believe in the same Ah of course there so of course Madison and Washington did not believe in the same God as the God bless you Perhaps you can lay out that argument were you in chinatown a week or two I have no affiliation with TAC I will not debate the nature of the of the with an uncredentialed heresy there are some I am one of think that the most practical and important thing about a man is still his view of the We think that for a landlady considering a it is important to know his but still more important to know his We think that for a general about to fight an it is important to know the but still more important to know the We think the question is not whether the theory of the cosmos affects but whether in the long anything else affects In the fifteenth century men and tormented a man because he preached some immoral in the nineteenth century we feted and flattered Oscar Wilde because he preached such an and then broke his heart in penal servitude because he carried it It may be a question which of the two methods was the more there can be no kind of question which was the more The age of the Inquisition has not at least the disgrace of having produced a society which made an idol of the very same man for preaching the very same things which it made him a convict for us to is a permission not a command nor a declaration of a definition for a matter proposed for And none have denied such Your accusation is doubly No one said such a thing and it is no heresy outside your own Regarding the good luck finding a statement from me that does not point out the difficulties in the And are you accusing me of denying do give I have no idea where you are quoting Academic academic I I realize but where are you getting I did give the reference with the first The other stuff is from Do you really follow of philosophy between Aquinas and I mean this view of the long decline of philosophy from high scholastic peak on down is really so I find so much vibrancy and life in the and centuries fascinating Of most of it really unearthed until the and but you think that view of the long decline can only be maintained when the knowledge of the philosophy is entirely unfair to Not that surprised by but really polemical not at all giving a clear I sewed a really cute apron for my daughter Have a good I my experience with Scotus is that he seems subtle and argumentative without really being But I really know enough to judge the sure Noone would but he seems to equate the complications of and century philosophy with CdeK knows nothing about Luther This is a great book on Luther and Though it falls for misunderstanding of Aristoteles und Luther by Google Drive does it mention if it then it doesnt understand Luther and philosophy at all but downloading it now to read kinda curious why you think that knows nothing about Jehoshaphat He probably had read Luther and more willing to trust his judgment on the matter given the evidence I  because Luther wrote and not all in a scholastic CdK didnt read him widely or well I know them both and C de K definitely doesnt know Luther I should have waited another few This is by the That is still incommunicable or authority No alchemy but when I said and I meant and hahaha ok relation to Aristotle was its hard to tell when he means school or when he says He is often respectful of the never of the former understand Aristotle better than Aquinas and Ockham understood and I can prove in a way I think that might have been true Definitely false as far as eudaimonism Luther sees it as as did Augustine  Augustine a Luther has much less riding on a reading of Aristotle than Thomas or Ockham so it makes him usefully disinterested But just not much of a commentator on Aristotle at all not in the Aristotelian sense ahem pagan virtues christian ahem Fair but he understands that seeking happiness ordering all things to always suspicious of that sense of but I see how it could be a good The obvious counter is that Luther enough to put enough weight on a good reading of a eudaimonist in a except that the fallen person isnt the proper only in the can you speak of a proper subject of Christ alone is the in which one must be by own term for the real incorporation in Christ by So his ethics has a strange topological prolegomenon which must be understood first Wish that I could remain in the intelligible light of The Neverending but alas I have to enter the cave and write a talk on Familiaris So Write it as a series of comments on So where are we on the whole question about do we believe in the same God as X I think there is a some disagreement and someone who seems to think the answer is I think nearly everyone agrees that Mormons worship the same God as seems There is some debate about Muslims and Is there really a debate about And then a question about Deists like Jefferson and whatever the other Founders not held I think Beitia was arguing that denial of the Trinity was a deal I think that is I argued that they would grant something like arguments for the existence of That is all we And then people were wondering if Avicenna was a typical Muslim we just need someone to grant that He is one and and then we know we are talking about the same That is why Mormons It is not as though we can set a number of attributes that one has to have right in order to be sure we are talking about the same I would hold that even Hindus worship Insofar as the hold that there is one God who is the cause of all Although if our concepts change because of what we predicate of them for being from Physics one could argue that someone who explicitly denies the Trinity than merely remain agnostic about worships a different If someone denies that there is immaterial I do not think that his account of being is only  What if they think being is necessarily After first operation can err because of the second and third I would understand why you would say It is hard to see that there is immaterial But our account of material being would be the  It is not as though I would wonder if we were talking about the same If it was Lawrence Krauss talking about I would wonder if we were talking about the same   Scotus is interesting on the concept of He basically says that being is a concept that is simple in such a way that you think of it But then he goes on to say that no one except the metaphysician ever thinks in second There is something true about Maybe not that the concept of being is held in habitual cognition by everyone and somehow drives all concept formation that person which explains every attentive philosopher comes to the same Behind this all is his theory of he thinks that when the intellect it abstracts all the intelligibility of the thing both the agent intellect and the phantasm act as natural agents and natural agents always act to the utmost of their most of that abstracted intelligibility is just stored in the possible intellect and we only think the most specific species of the sensible that most strongly affects our senses or the note or some  And the thing really good at arguing against other positions and for his The little I know and am familiar with he was a really smart Intellectually but My guess is he had a very strong power of always thought something like his notion of habitual cognition has to be behind the way the cogitative power somehow the power of the intellect has to be in that power so it can provide appropriate material to be abstracted I know Scotus well I have a friend here at the ITI who used to be a follower of and knows him quite I would like to sit in on a conversation between the two of what he calls all the intelligible forms which are held in the potential intellect but not I for they somehow direct to there seems to be something right about In what It seems to me in certain the first actuality of the intellect somehow directs human For one inclined to think that the possible intellect in its initial in remote potency to most intelligible just as prime matter is to most corporeal This is why the first concepts we form are so vague concepts are the only proportional to our natural That seems But I would have to think about it I see how else to block the argument that the agent intellect is a natural intellect as always acts to the utmost of its the agent intellect so any limitation on power has to come from the passive principle that corresponds to I see the appeal of the it seems one can also attribute the limitation on the agent intellect to its namely the phantasm Some phantasms can only possess so much we can only form a vague I know if Perhaps I think what we are saying is For one Aquinas talks about angels being able to illumine phantasms in such a way that we can abstract from them So that would seem to be a strengthening of the agent the limitation be wholly on the side of the possible that we can say that the angel is actually supplying intelligibility to the phantasm That is why the object of the illumination is the This would seem to be within the power of the since the angel knows the nature of thing without abstraction from the In as I think about this position makes more sense to if the angel is strengthening the agent it would make it more able to impress on the possible intellect as it seem demonstrative to i think what I have said can hardly be described as But now you have given me something to dwell upon and perhaps write some Ad id quod ulterius puto sine praejudicio esse quod daemon non injicit in animam sui Prophetae sed potius de existentibus ibi elicit intellectum novum Est enim de speciebus et litteris aliquo modo quia sicut eaedem litterae diversimode combinatae et ordinatae faciunt comoedias et ita etiam eaedem species diversimode ordinatae exprimunt diversa et Sicut enim dicit Philosophus in II de Somno et Sensibus ligatis per efficitur intellectus agens potens ut extrahat de phantasmatibus quaedam signa in quibus accipiuntur ita dici quod applicatio luminis naturalis quo viget intellectus daemonis ad lumen intellectus Prophetae elicit quaedam quae ostendunt et aliquando et aliquando semper autem cum intentione et hoc modo est inspiratio falsi II Ea vero quae ipsi Daemones revelare non quidem ciendo se animae sicut in in quo videntur quae in speculo ut quidam quia anima ad minus secundum statum non videt ea quae sunt a materia nisi quatenus ex phantasmatibus in eorum cognitionem Nec iterum species quae sunt in intellectu sunt proportionatae intellectui cum multo simpliciores et Unde sicut species quae sunt in intellectu imaginatio non potest nec sensus species quae sunt in ita nec intellectus secundum statum species quae sunt in intellectu Sed Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae revelare scilicet per cationem luminis sui ad sicut applicatur lumen intellectus ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu et quanto lumen fuerit fortius et tanto plures et certiores cognitiones Et ideo ex phantasmatibus illustratis ne angelico resultat aliquorum cognitio in intellectu possibili ad quam eliciendam illustratio intellectus agentis humani non cum lumen ejus sit debilius lumine comments on the same Also notice in Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae revelare scilicet per cationem luminis sui ad sicut applicatur lumen intellectus ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu sextum quod mali Angeli cogitationes immittunt illustrando Non tamen intellectus cogitur eas quia praeter objectum et potentiam exigitur ad actualem cognitionem intentio cognoscentis vel per sensum vel per Sed boni Angeli etiam directe in intellectum imprimere secundum operantur in intelligentias nostras miris quibusdam Hoc autem est inquantum lumen intellectus agentis nostri confortatur per intellectuale lumen Sed hoc daemonibus non quia quamvis naturale lumen eorum sit cacius quam lumen intellectus tamen lumine gratiae non sunt sed tenebris culpae et ideo non intendunt judicium rationis nostrae rectificare per mationem intellectualis sed aliqua nobis ostendere ex quibus quod faciunt phantasmata ad sui ad would seem to support the position that the agent intellect is not being but its object is being made more But the angel is working lumen intellectus which seems to mean that there is more intelligibility in the phantasms than our own intellect can our agent intellects provide intelligible content but only  Angelus quia naturaliter habet lumen intellectuale perfectius quam ex utraque parte potest homini esse causa tamen inferiori modo quam et superiori quam Ex parte enim quamvis non possit intellectuale lumen ut Deus potest tamen lumen infusum confortare ad perfectius Omne enim quod est in aliquo genere quando continuatur perfectiori in nere magis confortatur virtus sicut etiam videmus in quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad ut habetur IV de Veritate missing in that I is him saying that the angel can form phantasms by acting on the But the by illuminating the phantasm simply supply intelligibility about the thing that it knows better and in a higher I think what it does by strengthening the agent make the phantasm more abstract material to be abstracted what the QDV seems to Insofar as the phantasm falls away from the thing it must be deficient in The angel can illumine the phantasm by making the falling away of the phantasm That kind of seem to be parte Why A stronger light makes the colors more visible but change  But angels do not just have a stronger They have a more perfect light It is more life a full spectrum light compared to a black light in this the angelic light works though our own I admit it does seem like I wish I understood this analogy etiam videmus in quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad ut habetur IV I suppose just saying that bodies are preserved by remaining in their natural that is what I am thinking about I collected a bunch of texts by Albert and Thomas on the illumination of the phantasms in order to compare their views of abstraction for a I was wondering how these quotes came so The paper was marred because I wrote it for a historicist I stayed away from making actual philosophical  Greig I feel your pain Could you send me the But it was the easiest pages I ever I would like the paper if only for the This is where I got Alberti Magni Albertus Magnus is one of the most important medieval philosophers and By the have you run the stats on TNET I have to get some sleep Songs Against If you know add them to the Help me my only Please block Joshua thanks for your thoughts the other sorry I was not around to I will check out Pater when did you visit Chicago as a I was there from to It seems like there was a brutal heatwave every summer it would have been in the early I guess it was not I It occurs to me that it was probably my older who still lives in That might Is he a  I suspect your father and my brother are friends and that is why you sought shelter there during the probably Is your an art historian or something like Small A little while ago I sat next to someone at a concert in Vienna who happened to be a former student of at St He said there are probably only a few hundred people in the the rest being merely painted I suspect he is I guess they call that CGI Another beautiful connection brought to us by interesting premise for a story Spaceman discovers his earth brother gave refuge to a lost child suffering from heatstroke in the due to global The once reveals to Spaceman through TNET that most humans are CGI and together they set out to expose a plot against humanity traced back to James We played a fun game last night at craft It was personality do that I know is and But still To begin Everyone here is an Literally every person even though supposedly make up about of the population lol entj Me High probably also mostly Joel Also a heavily int Instead of finishing my Familiaris Consortio talk I have been looking through Jstor and Google books for stuff on medieval Fascinating I have no never taken one of those Catherine Joliat do you I likewise have no idea what thing I What did you find Pater Edmund is an INTP would be my guess I had to take this test this week for so fresh Introvert Extrovert is a bit hard to tell on this being the internet and everything J is do you have your Or does Catherine Joliat Feil keep it together for if the a perceiver probably everybody her is an and the maybe mostly too I always get ENTP or something else I forget which one but only one letter Matthew I was going to guess ENTP for I am so good at My guess for Michael Beitia is also ENTP take a test but from the I think a J in there somewhere Daniel might be an ENFP revised guess is ENTJ scratch Daniel Lendman is an ENFJ But maybe close on the Feeling like Seems like everyone is off having a more fun Saturday morning than I Isak is also an I would guess I have to take my kids to so do I but not for an hour soccer is the worst I have to move furniture in Then I have to tutor three students on papers which are due in three days and I guarantee they just started Hope you feel better about your then for Soccer seems like the worst today now that Everton have got a last minute equalizer in the Merseyside Derby oh you beauty on that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly FT that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly something that would happen in and I really hate this season so far OH YOU BEAUTY Weiss grading English Everyone in the world is having more fun than I what I found out about medieval there has been a lot of challenging of the received wisdom partly due to point about meaning someone who could read read and write Latin There is a lot of variation over the and a lot of disagreement about what the evidence But a lot of even knew a little and could read a little without being able to Interestingly in you had a lot of vernacular literature before the Norman conquest the New Testament and then after almost everything is one of the more interesting Literacy and Historical Development More on soccer you gonna cry and maybe explode and maybe go on a murderous so I recommend oh you Liverpool Everton Saturday mornings are for Everyone knows Now starting up slowly with some coffee and which has led me to read up on spoken like a I realized after I wrote that that it sounds like Not I read a chapter of that Literacy and Historical Development book just Pater Edmund It seems like the a little just means knowing the Pater Noster and the Credo So from a quick wiki I am I think but the distinction was not very clear to I just got back from dropping four kids off at swim and eating a donut with the do you like to be Are you one of those terrible Do you hate Then you might be a Definitely a in that on the other you function well in the have a rational approach to organizing your and like to know what to then you are probably a ENFJ according to the test I just took definitely the above explanation might be colored a bit by my extreme preference an eh ENFJ on the second You have distinct preference of Extraversion over Introversion You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing You have slight preference of Feeling over Thinking You have slight preference of Judging over Perceiving I just took a and this was the I knew you feel Not I like Walker in the I got Michael but I actually know I But in another not so can anyone know anyone until he knows Have you read by the cultural references are but it is an interesting book nonetheless reductive but I definitely think measuring legit I prefer the temperaments as a basic with various Indefinite personality I am no test oooh I just found out these personality tests certainly tell a Samantha INTJ I could kill a few minutes screwing around with these Temperamentally speaking I am Even though in this case it might not be a good I still feel good for scoring on part of that Wow strong Probably not the person that would high five a comets Which test did you take for the Personality test based on Jung and Briggs Myers type theory Personality test based on Jung and Briggs It was just the first one that came up on time to pick up the kids from is melancholic but the point of knowing temperament is to strive to become even Why Briggs Myers Jungian self affirmative fail Weiss I dislike the I get a different answer every time I take depending on my or how drunk I or what had to do in my life in order to get a melancholic choleric phlegmatic and there you have Weiss is Weiss John if the why I have for I think it is to strive to be even just how to relate to should say Briggs ends with embrace yourself and your And an INTJ in now everybody do the enneagram one because In the secret radtrad tradition temperaments were used as a means to aid in spiritual And even temperment was word of Good All i am  there are nine everyone has a type for the way they relate to the and how they actually a short quiz Comprehensive Enneagram Quiz This quiz takes approximately or minutes to the test can only be as accurate as not sure I explained it very The other enneagram theory is that you are a type that leans towards one or the other of the neighboring I am a six wing for Tritype the free encyclopedia The term Tritype refers to a theory regarding the Enneagram of Personality and was coined by Enneagram researcher and coach Katherine Chernick and later developed further in association with David The word tritype was formed from with the prefix tri meaning enneagrams geometric spirituality on Probably started when desert monks found those manna Peterson mentioned a thread age   never heard anyone who likes the four temperaments refer to themselves as anything but melancholic or combination of the Usually those who fancy themselves melancholic love Depending on how I take the it flips one which seems But still a bit And get me started on the whole introvert thing but phlegmatics sanguine are not interested by and melancholic make the and rule the world or try To be cholerics conquer the melancholics talk about it or be much cooler if sanguine were said as a temperament with other Charles Bronson would be the Cholerics praise and imitate Melancholics criticize So I have myself completely ENFJ put all those personality tests together and you big jerk That means you and I are basically the same but that be Michael Beitia Daniel Lendman but then we knew that both big at least a sanguine happy go lucky big jerk Samantha I took the and was slightly impressed to see that you guessed But the test that The Neverending Thread should really be taking is Which Early Christian Heresy Are theology followed a fairly well defined Its path was not from the outset as broad and I am that be to which Council Pater that quiz must have been designed by Salvador Monophysitism Pater I high Middle Ages Centuries of fighting for power against the oppressive state led to coveting state This led to the abominable corruption of the replete with wicked and this led to the reformation and the You we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle I suppose the just up and happened out of the Bad Bad The Other just up and came out of Not the fault at Whatever floats our But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period and I freely admit that the history is up for But that works both not pretend like those arguing it was good paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda But what I find even more interesting about your response is you want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior Fair But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to and American Ed we were discussing earlier the metaphor and whether it could be a I wanted to point you to Book of Rhetoric where he says the metaphor is a rhetorical demonstration of the greatest Now an enthymeme is a and a metaphor is an enthymeme of the greatest I also wanted to give you a few You may recall President famous demonstrative is a city on a the demonstration being that a city on a hill is eminently worthy of America is a city on a therefore America is eminently worth Another example is that good education is water in the the demonstration is that water in the desert is rare and education is water in the therefore education is Another example of a persuasive and demonstrative metaphor is that man who must always be right is like a child carrying a loaded a is equivocal with the sense of demonstration that was under question at the John We were talking earlier about whether George Washington and the Founding Fathers believed in the same God as we It seems to me quite clear that we and that this question is one which seems strange to Here is the famous prayer of George I wanted to present to and most merciful who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to that thereby they might glorify and praise thee for thy protection both night and O my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to I yield thee humble and hearty thanks that thou has preserved me from the danger of the night and brought me to the light of the and the comforts a day which is consecrated ot thine own service and for thine own Let my Gracious be so affected with the glory and majesty of that I may not do mine own but wait on and discharge those weighty duties thou requirest of and since thou art a God of pure and wilt be sanctified in all who draw near unto who doest not regard the sacrifice of nor hear sinners who tread in thy I beseech my remove them from thy as far as the east is from the and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus that when I come into thy and compass thine my prayers may come before thee as and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy that it may be reconciliation and peace to the saving of the soul in the day of the Lord Grant that I may hear it with receive it with mingle it with and that it may accomplish in Gracious the good work for which thou has sent Bless my friends and be our God guide this day and for ever for his who ay down in the Grave and arose again for Jesus Christ our that soccer took a lot out of I believe you had stated that an enthymeme was a kind of demonstration in no equivocal The examples I provide immediately as well as book of also seem to support the idea that a metaphor when used as an is a very clear kind of more inclined to think well of George Washington than of most of the other for one one of the few historical figures that refused power offered to him made a and willingly giving up the power he did get the precedent for two term a precedent that lasted as a tradition without legal force until I think I got but that was embarrassing to so let me take it again to question definitely defend myself with a flame thrower Whatever I had said about enthymeme I think either enthymeme or metaphor have the kind of necessity required for in the strict  The important is the one about the Montpelier Jeffrey to the problem of embracing division as a which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully it is worth noting that and has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a a method that any leader uses who wants to and it is not intrinsically evil in any or Federalist Madison employs this principle with a policy of by opposite and rival the defect of better might be traced through the whole system of human private as well as We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public This to common And virtually any government that lasts more than minutes employs such Any In a in a and one ties and to institutions and functions in order to bring about the public good and order towards something But as to the division here the separation of powers among the three branches this for the founding generation is not As I tell my they do not view as a block of ice to be chopped up and divided for the sake of mere checks for checks The three branches represent three very different KINDS of It is a very different thing to be a judge than a and another thing entirely to be an executive So this division has a basis in reality given the nature of governmental But one does tie the interest of a participant in each branch to the branch in common This is when old Senator Byrd was asked what it was like to serve under so many he looked askance at Charlie and said healthy for the and any form of The best Monarchies employed much the same in which different kinds of authority and power were given their If you do want to just depend on the virtue and love of the common good society would fall The very idea is This how virtue is This is giving everyone the ring of If you want to build up you hold people accountable and let them know they will be held You use their native sense of You create occasions of A teacher in a classroom will take steps to prevent A parent will take steps to prevent abuse of the You simply depend on In you assist virtue by taking these But what the remarks above miss is the very thrust of the which is to create a unitary government over the rest that UNIFIES the nation and that very much does depend ultimately on the virtue of the people and the fact that the Federalists think they will attain more virtuous leaders in the federal In the like this dependence on virtue and love of the common It made them And thus Madison is calming them down with his argument about how the federal goverment will help steer clear of what they Proust is overrated Jeffrey the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different and if you read any including Madison and as to WHY this is a good thing you would discover arguments speak of different kinds of power qualitatively and how bicameralism assists deliberation and promotes the public good and protects minority This is a commonplace at the You needed a more aristocratic Senate to slow things and the Federalist Papers and scads of other writings at the time give plenty of real examples of how two legislative bodies with different characters will lead to better deliberation over what is truly good and mitigate against is democratic So the is for the sake of and for the sake of deliberation over what truly ought to be Madison seems to use this tactic to protect the federal government against AND to protect individual It is just a tactic in his noble AGH Pelagianism Pater why were you only slightly I sing of and a man of It seems without there is no balance of One focal point would become too heavy and tip the scales always in the direction of its own Jeffrey for the government as a the compound republic of the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate society itself be BROKEN into so many interests and classes of that the rights of or of the will be in little danger from interested combinations of the The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of Many governments long before the American experiment had similar The problem is willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for As he famously must be made to counter The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and After one serves the when one acts or so we are Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of and as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for This is simply This hollow checks and balances interpretation that Bond speaks of really comes from the and the materialist vaguely Marxist approach of Beard before the Straussians and friends started interpreting the founding in terms of the defects of Schoolboys were NOT taught The founding generation did NOT teach People centuries later grabbed Madison and AUXILIARY PRECAUTIONS that amount to common sense and took them as a political No major founder thought The best you can do is uncharitably read two two stones from the mountain ranges of documents from the time to wring this out of the founding This spirit of division is not our That we are divided on the highest and the deepest that is a But it is NOT caused by what has allowed our government to in the separation of or our three or the fact that those within those branches tie their to the respective branch to which they belong and the job they happen to it seems to me the reason metaphorical and rhetorical demonstrations do not have the kind of necessity for knowledge in the strict sense is because they deal with topics that are not scientific in a strict They according to Aristotle in Book and require a speaker who in logical and moral and aware of the emotions of his These other demonstrations enthymeme and metaphor deal with the will and Whereas the syllogism is a form of reason in the strict sense and the All three are similar in as they are also formally similar to the rational Jeffrey Bond Choruses from the Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment They constantly try to escape From the darkness outside and within By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be But the man that is shall shadow The man that pretends to This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the the fact one builds in auxiliary precautions is just common The fact one harnesses ambition prove that one has abandoned virtue or the common and a century of American culture and history reveals that virtue and religion were NOT so therefore do not find persuasive Matthew argument that proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these Madison says in Federalist that is the end of It is the end of civil It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be or until liberty be lost in the But what does Madison mean by Based on this passage and others like it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with For justice is as Thomas defined habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the This is You do want to write off the plain language of Madison and But in this you are remarkably If you want to prove the esoteric meaning of these you must bring a bit more to the The passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with In one cannot make sense of it if that is the The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice it proves MY What he means is that we treasure justice so that we will give up liberty and in the pursuit of He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and which is what he specifically complains of in the If things continue this and radically unstable democratic majorities continue to act not rendering people their due Madison can give you specific then Madison fears that people will elect tyrants to keep the as western political philosophy warns so we are left with What life have if you have not life There is not life that is not in So the Federalists sought the unity that would come with a stronger federal Out of But no sane person thought that bond could entail a religious unity leading to the and highest end of because the size and extent of the government would make that But most obviously because of their disagreements about Yet there are still many a facet of the common good that the federal government could help of even today it does indeed legislate about morality discrimination against I am discussing the very thing on another only touched some of the difficulties and seem close to an I decline to it with I am glad to see you show how metaphor can be used as Joel is the point of reading the Matthew Historical Getting to the true meaning of the Political You sound so Of so does I think the Federalist Papers still reveal the working principles of the even with all the changes and they reveal some principles that worked even if things have In the they correct false understandings of where we have and therefore how we came to where we and therefore help inform what ought to be Jeffrey I if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian and the words of Jesus Christ in the all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is You say do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political the business of which is the care of which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of That Madison rejected this ancient ideal I undeniable since in Federalist Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle that is another matter that I cannot address here at the Madison mean that there is NO way in which one can deal with the causes of That is evident from his life and other But he does appear to mean something like ultimately get rid of the causes of faction by means of a federal government or any And that just seems if we take Christianity If you bother to expand outwards of your Straussian inherited Fed you would see that the VERY POINT OF ESTABLISHING THE CONSTITUTION is to eradicate the causes of faction by erecting a strong central government that takes power over commerce OUT of democratic majority might makes right hands and puts it into a popular form that has more aristocratic And to make all the states Out of many A all that is happening in is a response to Brutus re large and small But already driven down this road a few Matthew I to the problem of embracing division as a which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully it is worth noting that and has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a Your wrote in a method that any leader uses who wants to and it is not intrinsically evil in any or We certainly differ on this and perhaps here we are getting to the heart of our I do not view leadership as nor could I ever endorse and as a This is precisely what the Athenian Stranger finds in error at the root of the Spartan and Cretan Politics is not about Politics is about unifying souls and since the good of each depends on the good of Our because we are political by requires an art that aims at the common and that art cannot start with the principle of divine and conquer and still be the political That is power politics and assumes the good of the leader he sees is to be gained at the expense of those I doubt you really endorse such but what you have written above is hard to interpret in any other you just disagree with Jeffrey over what those principles are up already now that blows fall fast if not Moreover while criticizing you to focus on and as do most all teachers and students of the I am not addressing any argument Just pointing out that some of your strokes fall upon your own head as But just in Brutus the says the federal government will be too The question is large versus small Madison CREATE faction with the He DEPEND on He makes the point that the problem they face is MIGHT MAKES RIGHT majorities violating minority rights and contravening the common good of he a large republic will actually help prevent a BAD majority from Of the majority will still But with more bad and these small factions will fight and much will be It will be harder for a bad majority to form or to implement its sinister designs once But the overarching argument is simply whether you have an overarching federal government or In small or large you have a fact of For Madison and the the smaller and democracies were full of might makes right majorities that be They hope that a federal government with better legislators and aristocratic as well as an extending of the will help prevent the fatal flaw of government by the when you think what you want is the common and other side want you want to In a just you want to And you certainly divide and and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with In one does this by agreeing with people where and on what one and disagreeing where one Sometimes one must prioritize which is more This is how coalitions are This is how dialectic This is how we think outside of ourselves and our own thoughts and desires and begin to start thinking seriously about the common John No idea how you know what I focus just responding to what is thrust in front of me on the Book of There are a lot other Federalist and I teach a number of But I also bring in a lot of other Aristotle and Plato on Frederick Booker Du Malcom And pointed to multiple other texts by Madison and in the Fed of But if you wanted to unify souls in early you would need one government over those A as it And if you wanted to unify those you would have to do so in a government of the many by preventing them from joining to look at immediate interest and contravening the common good and violating the rights of So having a larger government with a more diverse if set up such that all the groups could argue publicly about what is best for the might help one coalitions generally form by compromise and coalescing different however can end in That or a better understanding of what The point is NOT to divide and The point is that the ALREADY EXISTING DIVISIONS over all the colonies will fight each other and help prevent any one BAD division from becoming the law of the just an auxiliary and Madison says salutary byproduct of a larger government over a larger population and moderation of majority I tried to describe tNET to some tutors yesterday but was unable to finish doing so because when I got to the name of our household there was a violent explosion of merry groaning and The problem is not that there be a majority on any given Of course there will be a majority of people who think such and The question is how to prevent the majority from becoming When you are the or the or the many ultimately in charge in your regime you have no one to judge You judge And in a which Brutus and the think is the many rule without and this is unstable and radical and lacking an aristocratic Madison create faction and debate in the public That already His point is simply that in a larger it will be harder for a tyrannical majority to with religious sects there will be a majority there and Madison is indeed personally suspicious of any such religious But the logic of the Constitution is simply that the only majority that will be able to form will be one that convinces everyone that it will not act unjustly or tyrannize religious they wanted no established federal religion for obvious practical But this true of states and local And the amendment itself could be changed with a majority in The real question is what Hamilton if you think that a large republic like that of the Constitution is by nature somehow divisive and too dependent on which is strange to then how small does it have to As he the states are already much larger than anything Aristotle has in So you must want a number of tiny little ancient Greek style republics but these are tyrannical and based on which is generally disastrous without some other binding An are the very democratic puritan colonies which are one of the best democratic examples of theocracy you can find in As you it matter whether my position comes from the Straussians or what matters is whether it is But since you seem to believe that the reduction of my position to the Straussians weakens my I guess I had better address this I first studied the Federalist Papers at Kenyon College under a professor who was a student of Martin as you was a socialist in his earlier but he to the Straussian position and the conservative Republican political agenda that often goes with But I do not agree with read on the Federalist nor with any of the other all of in my defend and laud they point out that he does not strive for the same nobility as the but they praise him nonetheless for creating a regime that is but or words to that That Madison lowers the goal of politics but therefore more readily attains his Madison is to be as you admire for being prudent and as you now know I do not share this view of And my critique is quite other than that of the I think Plato and Aristotle were fundamentally correct about the nature of politics and the human nature with which it is I do not think Madison shares and and in that respect at least my view is quite mainstream and hardly What is not mainstream is my rejection of Madison for his misunderstanding of politics and human That my position is not mainstream is hardly of since most political philosophers today share fundamental the no of the fact that they were raised and formed in the regime he This reading of Madison is modern as the professors of They read their own calculation of interests and power politics into that of the founding Edward Speaking of demonstration in the strict scientific would you say that any of the infallible dogmas of sacred theology or the infallible interpretation can be known in this that through a scientific Jeffrey Matthew Peterson you both seem to be using and in different The Straussians I most disagree like never say what they wanted With the federal you have two the people underneath it have different ideas about what the and highest end of humanity So there is no And this sort of government over extended territory and diverse populations can only do so much and go so far as it is largely concerned with more basic common goods by its very Yet they did leave it open to And we do flirt with we have Things go pretty well while you have a general protestant and then protestantism largely breaks often throwing in with liberalism simply in pure form in order to counter which makes things And so you get to where we Jeffrey would you please explain why you think Madison does not share and notion of Is it because you think Madison does not agree that politics is a natural good for or what is it I think the Straussians are quite content with as long as the Republicans are in I do not how do you say Madison differs from A and I think you are wrong about Madison creating a regime that is to higher He already has the highest thing individual But to keep his version of the highest thing Madison has to shut the door on any that would establish a truly common is the core of our This is why I say that Madison created a super all of whom agree that individual liberty is the highest Here is an example where the words clearly do not have the same And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us Jeffrey that is quite a to say that Madison quelled faction that would cause a common and to say he created a super What do you make of the Bill of Did TAC kill the link in the status on Should we relink to Or should I start linking to whatever the I Ideas what link is Cause it worked for me if you mean radical alma Thomas Aquinas it sure look like all agree that individual liberty is the highest good when I look to our In it seems that equality and liberty are always fighting each along with notions of very real and true common regardless of John my own tag speaking of the link to the Feil when I moved to Atlanta after my dad had me meet with this businessman whom he The hope was that he would give me a but he was somewhat and his idea of how to help me get ahead in the world was sending me to an industrial So this guy gave me a bunch of personality tests declared me an and then told me what I should be I remain somewhat dubious about personality types in When I read the descriptions of INTJ some of them sound like and some It seems only slightly more precise than astrology to For Madison it is but he did not fully anticipate the influence of Rousseau and the slow take over by the principle of equality that de Tocqueville Hmmm Why would they remove the Seniors and Thesis Titles Thomas Aquinas College Each starting in the fall and continuing well into We do agree on I the regime is coming and the lovers of equality over liberty are in Did they just change it But Plato and knowing well the nature of the democratic predicted this descent long Liberty so much a but rather the free space in society within which we can Genuine liberty is a but false liberty certainly is Jeffrey the highest principle in political philosophy is God the Creator of human If you are not willing to answer how you feel he disagrees with but instead make additional opinionated claims such as he failed to anticipate then it is increasingly difficult to follow your train of The link which Matthew put up was a shortened Seniors and Thesis Titles Thomas Aquinas College Each starting in the fall and continuing well into I think the link shortener link just a bold but you came late to the party and you have to do some catching up on where the argument is Madisonian politics is practical first and foremost and as such has no need for God I agree Madisonian politics is fundamentally but I do not agree it is practical to think one has no need for For him it is Jeffrey Bond We certainly agree on Because God my I hope He was definitely not into the Tridentine Mass Whether that invalidates the principles of the that is another The question for me is whether or not practical politics fits understanding at Hence the rocket man What invalidates them is nature first and Man is not what they think man I think practice can ever take its eyes off of I think most regimes are usually coming If most To me you are blaming secondary structural aspects that are good and not and neutral to what you Prudence is as you suggest about You equivocated on when you equated politics with just I tend to be a hugely uncompromising ass when it comes to but in practice I tend to be more able to see gray Madisonian politics is the latter for I point to the secondary structural aspects as evidence of As I division in government is much older than problem is that he thinks by are fundamentally By fallen By nature Of course practical refers properly to means ordered to right Your problem with the word your fundamental error is simply not thinking politically at And by that I do not mean disregarding morality or the common So how do you define going to a Have fun Are we still talking about Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us What is Jeffrey I have read every entry of tNET and I do not see where you have every really explained what you regard as the fundamental difference between Aristotle and You seem to be describing Madison as a godless The reIigous get over the faIIacy that the Founders were aII of one reIigious mindset and the get over the faIIacy that they were theoIogicaI just if you read Madison at face he is a When did Matthew Peterson change the disclaimer to include the possibility that some of us are mentally Not that not obviously of Oh TNET is almost itself Wish I had a lot more time to catch excuses I think he had Joshua and Edward in Anyone who posts that much Matthew I says in Federalist that is the end of It is the end of civil It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be or until liberty be lost in the But what does Madison mean by Based on this passage and others like it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with For justice is as Thomas defined habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the You wrote in passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with In one cannot make sense of it if that is the The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice it proves MY What he means is that we treasure justice so that we will give up liberty and in the pursuit of He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and which is what he specifically complains of in the I think the burden is on to say what Madison meant by justice if he did not equate it with since that is the mainstream view on my reading here is hardly Are you saying that Madison agreed with definition of Madison is certainly not in agreement about justice requiring both the individual and state to give God His And what is due to each citizen for negative not Each is due the liberty to pursue happiness as he sees for happiness is fundamentally subjective for Were it he could not speak as he does and allow its in to be left to the shifting sands of temporary equilibrium created by the conflict between we have the reIigious who beIieve that reIigion shouId be imbedded within even though the Founders understood the bad resuIts of this and go baIIistic at the thought that Sharia Iaw couId become that is only ironic if you think all religious are equally John ironic about people supporting one kind of and not  Scott how could you have read everything written on this thread on the debate about Madison and Aristotle and not seen over and over again at least according to my they differ on John you Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us What is As Truth will set you because saying that the personaI reIigious nature of one person is vaIid and the other is not and wiIIng to force yours on Yet are infuriated if the reverse is more hyocriticaI than It is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that Even she said nothing about forcing the religion on someone This is the probiem with deepIy heId generaIIy arbiitrary or but the conviction to force it on to others is very You are assuming a different kind of interlocutor than the ones got here I John And are you not trying to your nonreligious position on is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that Yes it Is yours not a held Why is your belief exempt from your I beIieve that states that promote atheism are as dangerous or more dangerous than those who promote The proper roIe of government is to neither not The danger here lies in thinking Plato is right simply or practically or absolutely re statecraft as and what might be given the birth of the goal is still as opposed to simply living or the city of But the problem is that the more we bear down on what the last highest best purpose of human beings is the more disagreement there The question becomes how we convince or force people to act as if or agree that our understanding of that end is right or there is the problem of We are naturally but we are Governments grow wholly We construct them in no small And it is not clear how this ought to be Same exact thoughts they had towards actually on the side of but I think the right argument against theocracy is that or As Spaceman that only applies if you assume there a true Same problem arises for the order and structure of the We would have to have the mind of God and knowledge of all that is in order to know how best to create and structure the So your deeply held that states should not promote or you think should be forced on others who disagree with There is no true So you have mastered all the religions of the world and KNOW they are all How do you know And if promoters of theocracy agreed with then they would be But since they just mistaken about the best way to promote the good through human government You think your position is but it is anything but Same problem arises for our position in We are in some way of the highest beings on earth and in charge over But it is beyond us in many and our ignorance is hypocrisy of You onIy beIieve it is right to force your ideoIogy on others and refuse to accept the I do not advocate force in this matter at There is a middle ground between and your sense of the It is called If God wanted to ensure one true aII he needs to do is stop by and do an You and Madison are the ones who want to force your position on others and then point the finger at believers and call them people who want to force their views on Science is ReIigion is indoctrination whoIIy Iaccing observabIe Our Lord did make that I guess you missed You hold a religious position without realizing peopIe have cIaimed he but onIy a Iuccy handfuI appeared to be God wouId invite everyone if he were I am all for and I have shown you five different based on the science of that you are contradicting So now you know not only that all religions are but also that God did not go about things the right In the absense of there is no vaIid argument for God in There are Scientific But if you do not acknowledge I think they will mean much to What do you mean by RepeatabIe with proper even the Founders understood that god and government Mere Is that Liberalism lies about its of But it truly emerge here until years ago or If you asked elite or about position they would have laughed and shot it full of This is obvious if anyone pays attention to what most of the founding generation thought liberty truly was or never mind the American Protestants for a century before and Repeatable experiments with proper methodology constitute just evidence your evidence for one right your evidence that all religions are I need You need to prove that one of them is If you are going to force your position on me and others I think you need some Of one can Iooq at the constant change of CathoIism and Chrisitanity and contradictions and have a good idea not Aii of the stories are based on pagan The Oid and New testaments are a mess of Thomas Gefferson expIained So you do accept contradiction as a measure of what is not Please then explain the contradictions in your position that I have repeatedly what Have we not been talking with each other these last twenty minutes or He did years just hard of I think we caught va I have to go read my children inferior quality but let him Even if any one Founder beIieved in one true most appeared to beIieve via their votes that there it has no pIace in onIy in the And that forcing a singIe reIigion is even if the reIigions is Not even Gesus beIieved he was the son of He was a You are the only one advocating force No one else has even hinted at what is the cause Even the least religious founders thought Jesus Christ the greatest of moral and thought religion and reason overlapped to such a degree that both taught almost the same about how we ought to the one more important than Jesus beIieve in force nor government run John I post Latin just to irritate And Thomas perhaps the most modern of the who was very into modern John was mad at priests because they taught that faith was needed to believe in God when he thought all you needed was Jesus is a great spirituaI Jefferson beIieve he was teh son of In Jefferson took it for granted that his university of Virginia would have a publicly paid professor of ethics and morals who would teach the existence of God via It is pleasure to be agreeing with I guess that is what you mean by Question even the existence of God And he welcomed all the denominations to pay for their own professors of theology who would be part of campus Even Iogic and reason tooq me modern evangeIicaIs care for Jefferson because he accept Jesus as his and CathoIicism is Iiqe It grew by absorbing everything around the whoIe Jesus thing is based on pagan immacuIate AIi not new You have a John not to be forced to accept revelation or But you have a sacred or central duty to hone your conscience and seek the truth with all your and soul with boldness even the existence of a if there be he must more approve of the homage of than that of My u nderstanding of position is that we need a theocracy based on higher one true reIigion principIes and that this is more important than My wife is as serious a CathoIic as anyone here misses but we accept each different going to try to me waiting for some I blocked Ashman In him the religious character of the principles of the founding are most It is a blind zealous and And contradiction be I have never once advocated a The paradigm in your brain compels you to push me into that position to fit your preconceived This habit of mind reflects precisely my concern about the founding principles and how they shape I add my prayers to those of your I do not agree with your that freedom and authority are opposed in What is the higher beyond Following the pattern of the shadows of the American you are next going to be saying that I think everyone who disagrees with me is going to I like the common Authority is onIy good and vaIid when it protects naturaI it is I want the  On what authority do you accept natural Sentient if you Please von book demonstrates that democracy is opposed to liberty its true aim is not it needs onIy the abiIity to reason and the abiIity to Once you reaIize that your bubbIe of seIf is essentiaIIy identicaI in nature to aII and you can get to the idea that you shouId treat others as you wish to be then You then are the one true What do you do with all the other bubbles who see it your it is the acceptance that everyone is their own authority and I am not Utilitarianism is so nineteenth Then you have the right to defend yourseIf against aggression from You envision a land of each making laws for himself and his in your is in the eye of the your reIigion is so years out of Aggression is fairIy weII accepted in I will check out the church of now to get in is the true Of the reIigious rareIy beIieve they are they are saving peopIe by chopping their heads own conscience is the supreme arbiter unless it hold that their is a Truth that binds all Then we have there is no true there are of I recall you said elsewhere that we can only know not objective So why should anyone take seriously any claim you What motivates you to The desire for No one has to accept any there is no obgective I asked what motivated you to That puzzles me if we in come to know something as it When you say is no objective is what you mean YOu refuse to answer what is than I did answer long Meaning is Check out the court I did answer If meaning were I would not know what you meant by that truth such taIes about a dead we agree on the meaning of subgective and obGective as we use but we created those they there It is a product of our Your you On your own you cannot know my do you disagree with the why I teII you how to The dictionary is now the supreme and you have no direct Iine to god that you have Iet aIone what truth do you need to impose upon We are just talking about natural reason If you cannot see that meaning is not then I think talking about Jesus is going to help us communicate The truth imposes itself on It needs no help from we have here is a failure to so no need for reIigion in government or forced reIigion of any but a walking a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage And then is heard no it is a tale Told by an full of sound and Signifying what is the use of truth to a what type of truth has it the authority to True religion cannot be You are the only one talking of is I am still wondering how you exempt yourself from your own Are you not making truth claims And if you are what is motivating you to Idle You have claimed to KNOW that all religions are Is that not a massive claim to Nothing is true and John is its You have claimed to KNOW that all meaning is Is that not a massive claim to when did I cIaim that truth supernaturaI is an If I misunderstood I So you do think we can know things What if only his meaning is How can he be sure it is i thinq we can get to the point where we accept them as via scientific math and But after the fact cIaims reaIIy cut it for i wonder if Mary new she was a Are they objective because we accept them as Or do we accept them because they are these things shouId maqe aII christians doubt their authority to impose their beIiefs on I am trying to grasp what you mean by but not helping because and seem to be all you can think Humans are faIIibIe enought that aiways Ieave the door open to but the more the I not even Jews thinq Jesus was the son of trying to find out what truth has to do with why is this more important than protection of Is your position as just are always Or do you know that your claim is unalterably what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan you are shifting Please answer the not untiI you answer mine Mine has precedence from way the one moving the goaI posts to avoid baccing up your if we cannot agree that the mind can know things as they then there is no point in discussing That question takes precedence over does it not but nice i accept your You are a most gracious But what does surrender The first important distinction is the meaning of If that which is free is which is then freedom would not be contingent upon the truth of what but nevertheless is meaningless in a world of dynamic and dependent If freedom lack of determination to one then freedom requires an understanding of one can be determined and is consequently contingent upon that knowing things as they I said above that once truth is then prestige or some other goal becomes the goal of Since you are looking for surrender rather than it seems you agree with my a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable So I guess I was not mistaken when I said that you thought that truth does not Pot meet If you believe in freedom literally has no meaning Can anyone tell me why the Arab world is upset with the done so much for given them the gifts of western toppled regimes and all the want to do is kill Jeffrey it is not immediately obvious how Aristotle and Madison differ in the area of Aristotle was a and Madison was a political philosopher and They both believed that truth and freedom come from There is not this radical difference you You also claimed Aristotle and Hobbes were This is not exactly clear Perhaps you not exactly engaged on solid in this a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable HAHAHAHAHA  Kettle and pot charcoal and burnt remains all at It seems to me Madison and Aristotle are most different in that one was and the other an one lived before the other lived after One was a the other Aristotle wrote a book titled Madison did that is another Can we But of all these Jeffrey Bond claims they differ most in the area they most agreed that God was the ENFP sanguine choleric Aristotle Hobbes Its so Deism I can be reasonable Aristotle does not equal and Hobbes does not equal but they are not and the biggest similarity is between Aristotle and Madison in their understanding of John we were discussing whether or not the God of Washington and Madison is the same God as a Catholic in good It seems they are and I am not sure why anyone would say they are Would you care to I think  I am a bit stuck on the natural religion argument on the other The assumptions of the counterargument are denied and we may be at an BUT I answered Scott John welcome to tNET where we all have agreed that the God of Aristotle is the same God as and the same God as Catholics who know love and serve that same God to higher If I had time to research more into the Federalist papers and to think about political philosophy I am sure I would have something better to contribute than this Ditto what Daniel As it who is this John Ashman and why does he and Since we are all agreed that these good political philosophers were speaking of the same God but in different and to various and since we all agree that the Church hopes for the salvation of those who have not had the occasion to be we can agree that most Americans who believe in God have a great deal in Nobody agrees with that we can agree And having this in common does not constitute a faction of the majority as Madison a the mortal powers of which must be divided to ensure a balance of so that these freedoms under the dominion of God who is the ultimate is not put I think Madison would agree with the they are pretty much his own while I am not sure that I what Scott just said here seems Thank you You are a blessed To be I was just paraphrasing but you have a blessed I can I mean to do you mean like going to great deal in Unam Sanctam  But these truths are not so far off from what is before us We do have a higher good before us and a more proximate and Catholics are very blessed with a greater degree of There is no reason why you should not run for It is a lot easier than you and the benefits are very we make but our government was made for the I do enjoy john arguments to power and self I do not know but it seems he is fighting an unspoken past and not willing to admit to an objective reality while simultaneously stating that the scientific method not is the basis of Willing to admit perceived effects but not admit Maybe not made for the but it is a surprise good for the Without Catholic it begins to last statement is certainly I am far too inclined up the But political participation and political philosophy cannot be reduced to the strictest definition of It aims at all those things which are yet fall outside of the realm of scientific knowledge in the strict But the Catholic must plunge into political life in There is nothing to terrible headaches and endless I should have known about the A poet should be an Too bad you have a polarized personality where you pit people that are closest to you in belief opposite from you in  I think John Ashman has but now that back from the I just have to address the know he was the Son of nonsense claim what is your Jesus claimed to be the Son of God all through the but true scholars in the last decade following the method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with FYI I think John Medaille is convincing in showing that the influential founders were not natural religionists but This circumvents the natural religion argument vis a vis founding On the other But because their entire approach to the text involves assuming that any historical figure in it could only have believed what was commonly believed at the and of course miracles such as the Incarnation are ruled out at the outset Scott is an ESFP  When I said every person on tNET is an I was excluding trolls Opposite a of course Where is this other argument with John Lacks thought and Nothing wrong with being an of Of course not but that is why communication is so it would make seeking political sensitive and holds strongly to beliefs BVM David UD department Pretty cordial really but I knew David in grad Many strong traits that I wholly That sounds just more on the rational side of know the truth is better than feeling the I do not really believe in the Briggs Myers I think it is ok to have pen It is ok if your pen name has a pen I think the only thing that matters is the words that are are they true or are the words on solid it does not matter who says the of the conversation is not all political and yes I failed out of then studied three years of lit at Christendom and years of rhetoric at CUA then was hired as a speechwriter in the Bush I think I learned the most at but I think there is too much emotion placed on the I find that Oh have liked to see of course if you assume Jesus was a as many modern scholars going to think he never claimed to be the Son of But those assumptions on the part of scholars make that kind of scholarship irrelevant to Christians IF you have learned the scientific and the natural you do need to look at Dogma for your own happiness After I am not sure if anyone understands what an incredible gift this country an oyster and the world is your not the assumptions which make it its the lack of any proof The Incorruptibles are good At least the scientists say a very different question than the textual question of and to my mind looked into the arent proof of anything but be that as it may Our goal is not to prove the divinity or the miraculousness of Our goal is to learn devotion to God and even if the neighbor is a Joel are you still a thought stir the No one should be trying to convince you of what you do not That is like trying to start a fire in the a even if the neighbor is a what is a someone who has doubts about the omniscience and omnipotence of God Wikipedia says Molinism the free encyclopedia named after Century Jesuit theologian Luis de is a religious doctrine which attempts so you will never change an opinion about your current because it makes a lot more sense to try to convince someone of what he already I deny ever being a despite your best efforts to label me as sophomore I say that a Molinist is a I did Joel preach a shame the pope forget which made Banez stop discussing divine foreknowledge at the same time that he made Molina stop discussing divine I change my opinion about my beliefs all the I think you need to in order to A molinist is a bit like a but it believes in free I think that helped prevent But you just said the one should be trying to convince you of what you do not That is like trying to start a fire in the I find it hard to imagine how anyone could wonder about such things as Providence and free Is it not more immediately satisfying to perceive the needs of the or the simple wants of or simply how to interact with another to be that I used to think it would be cool if a pope just condemned But then I got to if the Church did the whole world would just and that would be but belief comes from like a gift falling from the My opinion of that gift is always Am I making Paul thought it important enough to talk Ah letter to the John my take on the beliefs of Jefferson is based on reading a ton of I think read every word he ever wrote about religion or but who He thought you could prove the existence of God with That Christ was the greatest moral but obviously not He eschewed the revelation of He believe in a watchmaker as he did speak of God intervening or some sort of overarching justice that was a touch providential from time to my belief comes from not from someone trying to talk my belief into my opinion of my belief is changing and developing quite Does this make I want to make sure I answer your My aim is to Joel as it is now more than years since I accused you of being a Molinist and holding heretical views on predestination I would just like to say that I am sorry for saying that you held heretical views on But if I were I thought you were  Do you work There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan One of the guys is the other is an and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth And the atheist not like I have actual reasons for not believing in not like I ever experimented with the whole God and prayer Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible and I was totally lost and I see a and it was and so I tried I fell to my knees in the snow and cried if there is a lost in this and gonna die if you help And in the the religious guy looks at the atheist all then you must believe he here you The atheist just rolls his all that happened was a couple Eskimos came wandering by and showed me the way back to This is personal spin on what the University of Virginia should It reveals him pretty conformity with the principles of our which places all sects of religion on an equal with the jealousies of the different sects in guarding that equality from encroachment and and with the sentiments of the Legislature in favor of freedom of manifested on former we have proposed no professor of and the rather as the proofs of the being of a the and supreme ruler of the the author of all the relations of and of the laws and obligations these will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral of those in which all sects with a knowledge of the and a basis will be formed common to all Proceeding thus far without offence to the we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to as they think the means of further instruction in their own peculiar consider have proposed no professor of and the rather as the proofs of the being of a the and supreme ruler of the the author of all the relations of and of the laws and obligations these will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral of those in which all sects with a knowledge of the and a basis will be formed common to all Pope Scott says belief comes from not from someone trying to talk my belief into Related to the atheist and Eskimo story above why God give you belief through the persuasive words of When this understanding broke down as to what reason could do in regard to morality the general harmony re ethics between religion and reason and proofs for the existence of when things began to fall This was the key to making it all Absolute morality in a relativism of theology there This seems to simultaneous and directly argue against are all at the same and are no objective It seems there is something real and but the specifics are not necessary for the state to why god is not my Pretty clear The debate on the other thread is a small one whether the founders were natural religionists or Deists Its not a primary consideration but a nice hammer to beat people over the head with one way or the other I do not think that is me pictured It is hard to tell without the If God any of you then neither is true that or DUH it seems to me that much of the great conversation in Western from the till has been a constant revision of opinion to align more closely with gift of But the key to the founding era was that most folks were and even the elites who were most thought something akin to Jefferson One of Pope many problems is blind a that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner even know locked Just like the atheist in the Puritans share my God Stop being so selfish with your God Beitia let the rest of us in on the action are you Do you believe in the getting there I believe in the gods of the me Jeffie it is to say that and in the declaration is the same as the One True Triune God of true religion   When Madison et al came up with the concept of man being endowed by God with unalienable this was just a revised opinion of belief in lowercase your g not what many at the time say its similar to the lowercase your g GGG not ggg Up with down with stiff necked and unruly he cannot be taught thurificati Feil excuses for Is ENTJ the only type that need god bears little resemblance to I did flirt with Molinism in my is this a belief you hold by gift of or one by Jefferson believe in a watchmaker Once read Joel HF bit was false concerning many of the As well as all the occasions where Jefferson talks about providential have proposed no professor of and the rather as the proofs of the being of a the and supreme ruler of the the author of all the relations of and of the laws and obligations these will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral of those in which all sects with a knowledge of the and a basis will be formed common to all I really care about the details of or even all and Jefferson and Madison can still form a pretty good political and Aristotle can talk about all just wrong about the most important I insist that my have intimate and accurate knowledge of the do If Joel understanding was far closer to Christianity than almost beyond He thought Christ the great moral likely thought that the universe had a and knew of Christian virtues and thought them overlapping with what reason would tell you to a large moral get us any closer than Islam Jefferson was a closet is not much room for error in the world of the They dislike to see mistakes and have no patience with They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these because they are not naturally tuned in to and more than likely believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for like many have difficulty seeing things from outside their own Unlike other ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other as well as the value of being sensitive towards In the absence of this the ENTJ will be a intimidating and overbearing This may be a real problem for the who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from In their personal it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or The ENTJ need it takes control and just get in the claimed to be the Son of God all through the but true scholars in the last decade following the method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with i beIieve that Jesus probabIy used terms such as am A son of or are aII sons of and I beIieve this is And that his words were either twisted to turn him into a more powerfuI entity than he or simpIy made up Do we have any document signed by Jesus where he states he is the son of Or that his mother toId him that she was a that Joseph was some creepy oId guy that hung out with we have the issue of the erased And how he had no history untiI the age of shortIy before he Youid thinq the son of God wouId get a Iot of i read a catachism book front to back and if there was anything to put me off beIievabiIity of Jesus as THE son of it was because I stop saying and the whoIe way Same thing I get with ScientoIogy and Had he not been murdered by the we might not even now who he was bwahahaha Christianity as a historical accident of missing the indefinite Good one John Ashman what was your childhood how did you develop your religion scalping jihadism I thought Hebrew was missing all so that makes Aramaic has articles Ash I know just stirring the i have a marxist but was Ieft to deveIop my own much to his a lot of How about people at a How about centurions seeking him Pilate interviewing I John that you read as well as you believe in his being gay was punishabIe by so as a man at with no who hung out with other singIe men who bathed together in the how did you develop Did you have any mAjor life challenges during formative years that lead to everything being absolutely relative with no objective how does science fit that that aII from his oId John a fool I thought you were fooI believe what you but your opinions are based on a terrible reading of as I said no one was gay before it exist so punishable by anything It was just acts not a Having sex with another man sure That is even in the Oid It a it wouId have been a no one was Read more carefully In any I beIieve in obgective reaIity within the wiggIe room of science and human   but kind of so to be expected It was more accepted in Greece and even moreso in other Egypt for have you ever considered unreasonable effectiveness of in Greece it in the sense of the acts were mostly in the sense of but it was not done but also in conjunction with having a woman as well If I were I bother engaging NaturaI rights sort of ends But Jesus was married to Mary magdalen and had a secret I believe I am a direct thank you very your views on are clearly solipsistic why my slide ruler can calculate log and John you you assert So seriousIy saying that no one was homosexuai before that it into pretty studies on it have been done  Iy but the word is from the It wouId be siIIy to even bother the The one side debate is looking like the days of  first use in I reaIIy thinq this may be the stupidest thing ever seen in print on the is trolling Medaille The truth of the matter is subtle I you reading your own I agree you were born and after having sex with both men and you decided that you prefer this is why we need to prevent reIigion from seeping into stupid shit gets put into Iaw and peopIe get murdered or imprisoned over Spaceman of infinite tried to reason with I have no such patience ah back to force again Government has nothing without My reading of the symposium was you talking about you were spouting Dan Brown inspired crap about But all got is Totalitarian why do our poIice have To maqe As backup by all monasteries were gay because it is all football teams must be because they are all dudes and they shower The Senate and House were probably all gay because they were all dudes hanging out too the only reason to be around per is to fuck and when they use the what is it poice the police gay Police squad good That is the correct  gay tNET with out  In the time of straight peopIe got married by or He was unmarried and had no And was a craftsman which made him a Was Jesus Probably Paul Oestreicher Paul I preached on Good Friday that intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt PAUL OESTREICHER What is your fascination with gay it bother me at aII if he because not some sort of eviI pIot to destroy the my obsession with the Iacq of Iogic in and why it needs to be far from Good thing there are atleast a few women on because of this force government uses every Lack of did you even read the article you more IogicaI than the CathoIic story of immacuIate creepy resurrection and aII the other potpourri of paganism tossed into The term sadly has been watered down to mean all sorts of belief structures which includes every crAzy Combination of fact and Like larry church of Jesus the whoIe Amendment mean It especiaIIy meant We all know Jesus was an beamed down from the and spent the last years teaching the disciples how to make crop There is my op piece for the IncIuding the originaI crazy combination of fact and fiction from the And I can thinq of no better proof of there being no God than the survivaI of many of Popes during the middie ages when God wouId have caIIed these bastards home for a discussion before sending them on to that actuaIIy sounds reIativeIy normaI by It at Ieast acqnowiedges technoIogy and BUt cooI because those Mormons and scientoIogists and MusIims that are not Because we have TRUTH on our do you believe in I beIieve in phiIosophy as a way of getting your thinqing I beIieve in it as a iifestyIe or career there is too much action One remain in boot camp you and you go to not a school but believe that structured learning is better than unstructured Would you OnIy when properIy as a not as a So how can you guide me to what you How did you come to your Reading hitting up against coId It pushed me bacq into Iocqe and naturaI but reIigion aIways seemed of no vaIue to except that I Iiqe certain aspects of the focus on Important factors for a heaithy rather caII my seif a christian for the most I do beIieve in Gesus as a reaI and important And a a cold hard reality What I am glad I missed some debates here the apparent argument with the Troll over the dogma that sacrament of baptism is as a necessity of means for no offense to but your answers were not very good considering that quote is baptism of with it is of the denial of those are not since they are only sententia fidei And I guess I should be thankful that I cannot see this Ashman no idea who that is I You seem to be in deniai about I was a you never forced anyone to do under impIied or express That is not the best way to since just make the job harder Have I bet you Think long and Daniel actual Molinism is not it is determinist in fact The Molinism of of those who call themselves Molinists is The problem is people feel they need to take a camp when first introduced to the idea of It is a mixture of curiosity and pride if a complex theological debate would be decided upon based on the skewed and inaccurate articles of the Catholic For his Most at least understood Molinism fairly and unfortunately did not understand though he claims to have once been I will post a bit after I restart my does have some crappy scripts and glitches posting on the wall with i deny the existence of What is A An Was it Unless you actively need to wrestle or is there anything coercion or especially with the use or threat of ruled by law and not by But that real If you have a yes there Of course it Cops shoot peopIe every day in No a lever and a fulcrum are not real unless actively used as a lever and The rest of the time they are potential I never Your idea of force is not a real thing just your solipsistical idea of Because the force exists as The person understands what wiII happen if they While I dig up some of my old writings on I will leave you with Why is who held so many things we now consider a doctor of the when he even a Heck why do people feel justified claiming the IC against as a dismissive of when positions on the etc are all either heretical or theologically if someone increasing IeveIs of force are are they No they have ideas but they Handcuffs are TacqIing someone is Tasers are so cops never beat or shoot Matthew note that of course Jefferson is more of a christian than I never argued that he just that their ideas of were very even a watchmaker may that get one to the natural knowledge of God as to the idea that idea of God was closer than to the Christian God you raise that note that Jefferson thought Christ was a moral thus though denying that Christ was that of is defined as And that was your If it peopIe wouId wouId ignore Handcuffs But I can tell this is not your area of You have ideas of forces not Tell me something Did you read the The knowledge that the universe had a beginning has very little connection to the sort of God Aristotle and Jefferson scratch to the extant that idea of God requires the universe to have a he is that much different than once was my Which one was more is irrelevant to as neither was a Christian in any real sense of the It is a quote is it If it it is If it is it is Yours is a serious IeveI of Joshua may be a medieval but he a of the is cops qiII peopIe every day and beat many more every It is absoIuteIy Having the tools to build a house and building a house are Uniess you are saying there is no consequence for not Note that the small amount of substance that John Ashman offers for his trollish arguments about Jesus are identical with the assumptions of the modern or the Jesus was a Jewish and Jewish men got so since Jesus get married he must have been deeper than that i aIso beIieve it for many other not oniy Though I doubt John Ashman knows anything about just bad journalism have you been and aIIowed to beIieve I now peopIe who if you use force then Ieave your you need But it never happened to So it real to sure it because I now it can happen to me and wiII if I refuse to And INTJs are a fine type to though I very much doubt you are actually an I So things can be real that you have not directly But until is just a concept which you believe to be What of ethics and Are they concepts as well that can be realized in Joel HF you are was beatified in Linking to the guardian as a credible source makes me I should submit my was an alien First any not heretical version of Molinism must affirm one simple Total predestination is prior to foreseen Anyone who says otherwise is a view as best can be God sees in His scientia media between knowledge of necessary and free such as choice to the possible future He elects say Peter to grace and consequently chooses the world in which Peter Based on his God then predestines him to Some Molinists hold that God first elects Peter to glory and then the Some congruists rather that he was heading in a more Congruist But I will leave that alone as Congruism differs in that God chooses the grace congruous or fitting to the foreseen and in choosing the grace effects His Most Congruists would hold that God first predestines Peter to then foresees possible future then chooses the grace congruous to his and so Whereas in the case of the He may give and the grace is truly but He knows that cooperation will not be given Later versions of Molinism moved away from the principle of predefinition of Though condemned and forbidden by Jesuits in the this has yet to have any judgment of the Church rendered to The predominant version is that God sees possible future In each some are some do By choosing which one to He effectively predestines some to grace and reprobates not based on any predilection or intrinsic determination of Based on the foreseen consent He then predestines them to There are such as as it is essentially a denial of any and makes it so that the reprobate are impossible for God to have It must be kept in mind that whatever theory is chosen that the first grace and final perseverance remain and that predestination in its totality is The conditional Molinist position is that predestination to glory is based on foreseen but still it remains that predestination taken as including both grace and glory is since any merits come as gifts from grace In this way Molinism avoids and circular Molinism as approved in the Jesuit affirms that grace is efficacious in actu primo See whether or not election to glory to based on foreseen merits or is actually a It is neither fundamental to the Molinist understanding nor its difference with seeing as predestination taken in its totality is unconditional in any orthodox The fundamental difference between plain Molinists and those that are Congruists is that the divine decree prearranges the consent given to the grace via will about X in the Congruist whereas those who are not Congruists hold that the divine decree prearranges the grace which is seen in the scientia media to be In either interpretation of Molina we have God seeing possible and choosing that cooperation will happen and arranging either in the circumstances or the grace itself The vast majority of Molinists hold even prior to efficacious grace is already infallibly going to produce the salutary The difference between Thomism and Molinism is not the infallibility of but how the efficacy of grace is actually The ontological difference of sufficient and efficacious grace in the Thomist system exists because of the much older Augustinian distinction between grace which enables and grace which moves the In the Molinistic the grace itself does not have any intrinsic determining motion to Still there remains an infallible in that God prior to the free determination of the that this grace will be efficacious So God this grace will be He then use crude consults His scientia and foresees under what circumstances with what grace consent will be and He chooses to actualize those circumstances that if the man is passed He does not actualize said though He still grants a grace truly and intrinsically He just chose not to actualize the contingency or possible reality wherein the man There is a small minority of Molinists who have held that grace is not efficacious this way in actu primo and the predefinition of but rather that God sends various graces and foresees the actual consent and bases His predestination to glory on So we do not have any nor congruous This sounds more like what you were holding and I was not aware of its existence as a deviation from Molina most certainly did not hold Probably a small minority as Jesuits were ordered not to teach From the little I have gathered from my source Gonzalez De there is more to but he makes only passing He does say something about choosing different orders possible if you for Basically boils down in any number of various orders some will be God chooses among which orders to and in so doing chooses the elect and the but not by any special predilection for this man over There is even a version called Feil at the he told me the was the closest split I was only slightly more I than But I think I am more of a confirmed introvert as I get that being talkative in certain situations does not necessarily make you an not the part of the INTJ description that seems off to More the parts about being super driven and not etc the assumptions of the method make it possible for them to make claims that are supposedly based on even though they have a total lack of The Thomist of is that all of this posits that scientia media knows what you will do given X or because He knows you all so well and can therefore foresee But this is now an effect is known from a necessary One might remember take down of that view of divine He granted Cicero was that that denies free and then argued that God knows the will because He causes actually sounds almost more Thomist here than It amazes me that in actual academic Thomists are usually attacking Molinism as denying free will AND introducing potentiality in is like te worse of both worlds I know being a talker make you an I called Joel being an for And John if you actually think that Guardian article is than then concerned for The article is a sad exercise in wishful Feil what weirds me out about the personality thing is that I have met people who are so into it that they act like people are just and that all of human interaction is just typing people and figuring out how to game the As I total a little something to Plus the guessing is fun And three for three on the people I know in real life who I guessed correctly Feil to drag on about the temperaments despite that part of the conversation having long since died Although I admit I would have guessed you were an I used to think I was an but then I realized I was just hanging around too many Feil I think complete I just think people can become a little obsessive about are you familiar with the trying to avoid the more stupid consequences of denying beatific knowledge as saying He had that He was given prophetic knowledge of who He Even when modern scholars agree that certain positions are they seem to presume you can never go back to the old got in trouble at the DSPT for saying that that view was because that is inflammatory I quite understand your but I think the answer is There are lots and lots of things you simply say as a scholar of the Bible these not because been just because they allowed Weiss Personality just Aristotelian categories applied to Not science just a means of I wish I could see that Medaille Ah PIease try to speaq in especiaIIy very poorIy Iaid Actions and beIiefs are MoraIity at the end of a gun is simpIy Iow brow I meant some have refused to return to the view that Christ had the beatific but also recognize the of a wholly ignorant Christ or a Christ who only believes in Himself So they posit what they think is a that Christ knew who He was through infused Even though this is essentially denying all the claims of the modernist and is logically incoherent He would still have to have as no created species can be adequate for knowing the the motivation for denying Christ had the beatific I think your keyboard is really it went along with the denial of basically everything miraculous about Christ Now some scholars are trying to use the same broken framework to come to slightly less hollow conclusions Kenz is it can be pretty sad to GoeI HF It but sometimes I cut and paste the missing But your experience in this issue is I have evidence that you are an idiotic troll and that explains the inconsistently used misspellings just as well as occasional and a broken Guess which geys are See Translation This is who preemptively blocked me I am almost afraid to ask what he is actually saying Jesus was yada yada yada wrong with him being Homophobic Oh so a blaspheming heretic that I would have to block immediately in punch in the Government is church must be absolutely separated from truth is pretty testing my do not policy when and where has church and state being integrated caused a good resuIt with a Iow death I think ignoring him might be the best policy See I block people for my own lest I be tempted to anger Go ahead and I have so anger is something to be overcome I get just a head shake I blocked him for my anger and his dizzying government has put the muscIe and vioIence behind the reIigion and has Ied to hundreds of even miiions of deaths over a disagreement about who created the Because reIigions beIieve in Ietting God handIe the And the Founders throrougIy understood Even though they were mostIy especiaIIy because they were and new the historicaI consequences of government and reIigion as one united now trying further and more extreme statements for a since I suggested ignoring his dumb ass FeeI I get more accompIished that I wonder if he has a tinfoil hat And they aII have a picture of a chiId with a moustache on  I think just listen to some until the wife and kids get home for Rosary call Halo Benders God Make No Junk dice el tano culiao de Scaruffi So we can discusses if Scotus was closer to protestantism than he was to how we think of the sacraments and I am in a Scotus bashing mood view that justification is purely a legal and not an actual change in the is this connected with his view that God could make rape because natural law is just whatever God How about is view on the of Why is Scotus recommended I A friend of mine said he was beatified in because he finally made it out of purgatory Come Scotus said what but it is hard to have a theological discussion with the dulcet sounds of the Halo benders in the Dissing pictures of children is OFF HARD breaking the the worse than Perescott rule I missed that we made that a since it was only a I really think of myself as a an even worse What do you mean by think it just means Lutheran in  He said you needed perfect contrition to be absolved from sin and that was merely It is many of his views were completely both by and the many Jesuits who held some of his views the eclecticism of and were considered dead until the think the adoption of some is just a mark of intellectual rebellion as the materiality of the There are a whole host of propositions from Scotus if they were said after would have been formally Some are strangely protestant sounding least his views on justification match the Catholic understanding of what most protestants how I phrased But since no one is biting I will get a pizza and need a real Scotist one that holds distinctio formalis or some other dumb idea that was long ago refuted and not held for centuries until contrarianism became a wife and kids are Rosary time for me We should stop at the number   Evangelicals are people who define themselves and their lives and their faith by the good news of the announcement of the kingdom by Jesus of an Os Guiness I I guess a but mainline Protestantism is kind of not the movement my lived Christianity is best described by I thought it meant people who went to both mega churches and smaller independent and liked altar calls and hand clapping I mean I mean the churches I go Mr a broad for but not defined by that stuff Samantha Cohoe Dissing pictures of children is OFF has a Samantha resist the urge Ferrier May the and the and all who claim the name of be  Ferrier Bless Richard Delahide Ferrier singing hymns at your house is one of my very best TAC memories I was always very sad I never got to have you as a Ferrier We are doing it funny my favorite TAC memory is studying Heidegger at casa Ferrier suddenly seized with the hope that Ferrier been following tNET Ferrier rest Ferrier For I watch it to admire the good sense and large learning of Matthew Peterson and his patience to step Ferrier Michael I think that if anyone has no sympathy with that person is I think the same about and even favorite Ferrier quote about Nietzsche a waste of And not totally a Ferrier Did I really say overheard after some extracurricular or or Oh I have a very good Bless me fr for I have I fell to temptation and fed in particular denying their arguments of metaphysical Damn the is not a not damn especially after Ferrier showed Maybe John Ashman just ever met anyone able to point out the obvious contradictions inherent in his position much like whenever someone I respect a lot pops into I am suddenly brought back to the dark reality that there are many people lingering in the shadows of and I suddenly get very about what I have I read more than I post One time Dragoo liked something I and I panicked for a When you graduated with Brian it is a bit less For the a lovely person in real Matthew I object to the placement of the modernist acronym in the official heading of simpIy waiting for someone to point to The Iast severaI attempts required word swapping and straw man I want to maqe sure aII you you wiII be in church because I wiII I follow super but pretty sure Spaceman and a couple others did a solid job dismantling your not It was pretty Word goaI It was a potpourri of IogicaI Dr Ferrier apparentIy beIieves because aIthough I have nothing but respect for I have zero sympathy for The man caused the greatest hoIocaust in American history for one And for aII his maqes you Sorry you feel that But as a majority rule be the civil The magority has never been famousIy correct about the nature of Yet here we Purchase a tombstone that says going to prove myself Fighting to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one I always did like Poor motivates but good game I think pretty good myself that is my per the suggestion of tis not but a latent understanding that the definite article does not deserve a capital letter in the There was absoIuteIy nothing sancrosanct about i assume you beIieve that if a woman wants a divorce from an abusive that he has the right to beat her or even murder her because the marriage is more important than Never I want to talk to you about Mr though was a year behind me in classes at I still find it odd that a not because he but because it makes me feel You are and you are QED a tombstone that says going to prove myself that wouId be exceIIent on but today is Brian the thirty beginning to and got to squeeze all one can out of The Plague are all turning I love anyone want to take a pot shot at the Rebel is fantastic I want to talk to you about i expect That was a ha you would of says that is the perfect I found that to be so far something to look forward to I suppose Nice I should have given you credit sorry ending union but for the people who embarked on the preserving the union was the real motivator absurd to reduce the desire to preserve the Union to the pride of one New troll knows history like he knows you mentioned game What do you make of the A violent end to slavery was justified and I aIways have thought that friendship shouId be maintained at the end of a that you are arguing against a position no one has put troll feeder sorry who is that I thought he was your friend I know but realize that everything typed is just fodder NOT MINE we have butted heads I accused him of being an idiot libertarian oh he was the tea party starting to come together a Samantha to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one i assume this to mean that the ends gustified the but I apoIogize if you were against the invasion of the it is a sad state of but much easier to ignore that I think he gets it I do prefer my trolls to be a bit less Dear for all his is not a typical example of anything other than the typical think straight without even his is in a idiosyncratic but bad like it must be sad to have such a modern To answer last my children do not know of episodes Or just that they were not worth how old is your Star You guys find anyone to defend did nope tNET can be but not crazy and Star Wars is weird for the first movie I saw in a theater was of the but too young to have seen the other two I saw episode when it came out because I was dragged too with Star Wars I have a full basketball team I and my oldest will be very very soon Nicely seen but I unless you count playing Lego Star the complete saga on which I beat but since I have raised them to be hypercritical of there you have it My kids know them through angry birds Star HOME BYE Who is an idiot  Is there another troll I cannot I think cheating on What is a I use his but the blasphemer that you would have blocked at any but to be all libertarians are kind of redundant That is certainly true on both modern and etymological senses I understand them well not a defect in Jeff Iibertarians have the highest IQ of any poIiticaI In a recent study puts us in with conservatives and admits we are the one that keep you in the game with at least has an easy time at catch up with Scott and Ashman all you live in right A Iibertarian is essentiaIIy someone who agrees point for point with Thomas Gefferson phiIosophicaIIy or with I minus the variation in reIigious as there is no set Iibertarian stance on God or Josh blocked me as well The even more amusing thing to us about the are duIIardry is that every time a study is done by they try to Iump us in with them and everytime conservatives do they try to Iump us in with them great to be the first picked for the Both of the teams hate yet both desperateIy want us on the team come IQ measuring do you see his seen you in it Yes weIcome I never saw So never had the opportunity to block him how do you feel about the gun laws of They are written by absolute for the most The few that moronic in such as the handgun safety are only there as stepping stones toward something moronic of the states requiring a permit to BUY a California is the than North certificate is given by the gun dealer there and and is good for you have to go to the courthouse in Nebraska or the police in North unless you have a believe it when people say California requires classes before buying or other things like I mind the HSC as it stands was when it was since even a cracked addled bonobo can pass the safety test for really is a very basic quiz on common But things like the roster or the different definition of an short barrelled shotgun so many crimes were commit with the Circuit or the banning of except for which you can totally The granting of licenses for real machine guns to those tangentially related to the movie even though they need but denying them to Class of it makes no even from a control Heck have a CA Feel free to carry in bars and which you cannot in say Arizona or make it capricious to get In one country having hunters safety training might in other you have to be a donor to the sheriff or live in El Monte chief there grants under fairly strict standards but not capricious for California is not as as is more The same legislature that passed mircostamping also actually passed CCW reform that made it easier to carry most sheriffs ignore the The same legislature that tried passing ammo permit requirements and banning mail order down by CA passed an NRA backed bill outlawing the taking of guns during a declared emergency The same state whose US Senators have bemoaned stand your ground in has had stand your ground since have never not had And in this same the law found no fault with te Korean shop owners who fired on black rioters during the Rodney King the law justifies even homicide by a civilian in the suppression of a riot or the protection of real You get the of schizo my wife and I are both blocked by we do not see In California the gun laws vary by Just a couple months ago they changed the county restrictions in a few counties to allow concealable weapon carry permits with Minimal why would a person want to join the libertarian why not be do We I have been and forever wiII be a member of no in is my new favorite legal There are many more Iibertarians than there are that beIong to the Iibertarianism is a very MOR still surprised no one is going to stand with Umberto Eco with me all bought in Now that the court has struck down the day waiting period was shortened by the liberal CA legislature from in the mid as electronic systems allowed faster again destroys the black and white the remain CA process may take minutes longer than say in Necopma Apsit and Pia Nona Vaquero Missing are my Ruger the Bauer baby brown clone I and the Marlin I sold due to being poor but miss I am if I ever get ahead buying an or an you can buy those in without special permits are are confusing and it at that But probably like cowboy guns too action again I I spent a lot of time as a miscreant growing up shooting both and AKs I think it changes when you have children do you I have thought about reading Eco but I am depressed enough ya not exactly more of an ignorance of something I find very interesting but why should I follow that I am not party I have worked too long in politically charged industries where joining one party or another was bad for Most peopIe a hard You have to be abIe to say NOT make a do this and not going to Iet this bother But very rationaI in the sense that there are no perfect so if going to choose betwen two both and one costs the other costs why choose the expensive Mariuana causes a Iot of but onIy because More more more more Iower or you can thinq of it from a Iochean point of vew onIy a beiief in naturaI rights and the wiIIingness to foIIow through on Ferrier Perhaps we should look to what moves and what we would suffer For that Christ and his Holy and my beloved American This is the nature of Each person chooses his battIes and I know very many reIigious Iibertarians that view their beIiefs to be personaI and not For it is the as the RepubIic has become the enemy of the Ferrier Here is a bit of the old time religion for those who have never known forgotten Lou Reid and Carolina Hard To Sumble via YouTube Capture It puzzles me how those two loves go Richard Delahide The American Republic has been the engine of the which can almost be defined in terms of its hatred for the Church comes immediately to she has become so factious and divided again to Ferrier I love and I love and I think you are misled by a false idea about this you are wonderful about the silly limits of and the wonders of and I love and I love the American but I cannot love what America stands But if I have a false idea concerning I am open to hearing Do you disagree that America is essentially Locke Ferrier I remember that the CathoIic Church for much of its history was dominated by poIitics and aII nature of sin and It is onIy in the Iast years that the Church has gone from vicitmizer to i wouid be tortured or kiIIed for my beIiefs If not Locke then what animates the American Ferrier and the law written on the Plus a healthy rejection of the Old trust in How is Paul at the heart of the American Ferrier And also a moderate trust in Locke and others not a dark and deep reading of but a common sense One does not need a dark and deep reading of Locke to see the threat to our beloved It is right on the Ferrier You can get my mature sense of these things from Amazon Search declaration statesmanship a course in american government What is the So many so little But I will check it In the your claims still puzzle especially given your love for But I will not press you if you want to be Ferrier You are Let us both try to be blessings on you and rdf if you But I will press your Matthew whom I have become very fond of despite our Ferrier I reserve the right to I deeply agree with Matthew Peterson So I Your intervention would always be Praying for your good Ferrier My kidneys are sort of letting me done at everyone should be fond of Matthew despite his subtle serpentine Straussianism Did you ever check out that source I Or is it just too Ferrier He follows the decent path of not the crooked ways of some alien Jeffrey while not big on the founders or the definition of American patriotism as holding an and in fact while usually being the one yelled at for being one thing that strikes me is that one of the myths both about the founders and America is that there is single monolithic ideology making up the idea of Certainly Even more so in his private correspondence are two versions of the essay on one even more supports you But did George Washington share the same sentiments when he banned Guy Fawkes day or wrote the pope back telling him he was free to appoint bishops and that the liberty of the Catholic Church would be Even Leo while condemning still had much praise for I think it can be too simplistic to assume that the totality of what went into making America is the enlightenment ideals of the founders if we take the more radical statements of Madison and Jefferson as representing the Maybe it is destined to always be in competition with these but American society is as much founded on ideals of biblical law and The separation of Church and state does not look like the secularist regime that even now France or Mexico Mexico is very in some of its though for a long while those laws are more or less defunct in Certainly there is not single monolithic ideology making up the idea of But if America is to be an intelligible it must have a and that I is The other traditions that originally mitigated against Lockean in been subsumed by a proof of sorts that the Lockean ideals were dominate from the So while others think our woes are due to a departing from the I argue that what we see today is the logical playing out of those The fact that Catholicism was not openly banned Samuel for does make America appear to be better than the communist for that instituted But the agnostic position of and this Leo agrees is in fact no better in and the danger is much more Open persecution has always strengthened the The conversion of American Catholics to Lockean dogmatic tolerance appears to be much more deadly in the long can you say what were the criticisms of Leo XIII And this not to criticize the founding but to guard our Even Pink recognizes that they have come to I am not sure America is all that we have some idea of what we are speaking do we America has been a force in the world and continues to be I think Locke would be very pleased were he among Though he would have as he did to that Catholics be treated as they were in On second the conversion of American Catholics to his way of thinking would have made it unnecessary to push them into sulfur my man Leo XIII on and George perchance did the fact which We now recall take place without some design of divine Precisely at the epoch when the American with Catholic achieved liberty and coalesced into a constitutional Republic the ecclesiastical hierarchy was happily established amongst and at the very time when the popular suffrage placed the great Washington at the helm of the the first bishop was set by apostolic authority over the American The friendship and familiar intercourse which subsisted between these two men seems to be an evidence that the United States ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic And not without for without morality the State cannot truth which that illustrious citizen of whom We have just with a keenness of insight worthy of his genius and statesmanship perceived and But the best and strongest support of morality is Referring to what Washington said in his farewell with the help of And by the end of his I think Hamilton believed the to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Leo is not and obviously hoping to make the best of But when it comes to his analysis of the principles from the it is clear Leo has grave doubts whether America became what it OUGHT to have Leo is referring to Farewell address when he said all the dispositions and habits which lead to political religion and morality are indispensable In vain would that man claim the tribute of who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human these firmest props of the duties of men and The mere equally with the pious ought to respect and to cherish A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public Let it simply be Where is the security for for for if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular The extends with more or less force to every species of free Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the Promote as an object of primary institutions for the general diffusion of In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public it is essential that public opinion should be See Au Milieu des paragraph where he speaks of the situation a fortunate the legislator is inspired by Christian though these advantages cannot justify the false principle of separation nor authorize its they nevertheless render worthy of toleration a situation might be The state is obliged to hold up religion and the moral law not by but by for involves putting up with something that is bad in order to avoid what is not that Leo thinks separation of Church and as America understands is I see that Leo praises the protection of the Catholic not praise for speach which would be at discord with what he says He praises the amity and concord of prelate and Leo thinks it providential that the see is established at that In Immortale Dei Leo says this about the view that the state does not have any kind of duty toward it believes that it is not obliged to make public profession of any or to inquire which of the very many religions is the only one or to prefer one religion to all the or to show to any form of religion special on the is bound to grant equal rights to every so that public order may not be disturbed by an particular form of religious And it is a part of this theory that all questions that concern religion are to be referred to private that every one is to be free to follow whatever religion he or none at all if he disapprove of From this the following consequences logically that the judgment of each conscience is independent of all that the most unrestrained opinions may be openly expressed as to the practice or omission of divine and that every one has unbounded license to think whatever he chooses and to publish abroad whatever he when the State rests on foundations like those just for the time being they are greatly in readily appears into what and how unrightful a position the Church is Bwhahaha John Ruplinger you can at least admit that in the passage I cite from Longinqua Leo in clearly referring to Farewell Maybe my issue is more with seeing the idea of America as defined by a set of ideals or ideology as if that is the essential and a priori principle that makes America to be a to be a I do think there is an American ideology of I just think that part of the mythology of that ideology is that it is ideology that binds people together in a Fond of you too Jeffrey Much love going around tonight on the I had fine tequila but its effect was I think that notion is right out of The purpose of the what it stands vision of justice and the good what make the regime a A comic and a tragic he are different even though the population and the territory they occupy are the So too we know when a regime has changed when its purpose quite apart from the material causes that make it Remember the old drink while debating but delay the vote until the Does that marvelous story come from TNET is getting to be a love Almost like If you are tired to pass it pretty sure it about how the Persians would debate treaties and business dealings while drunk and them those What would the world have looked like now had there been no Salamis or Alexander the Leo XIII was certainly not approving of the American system And America does not meet the ideals of a state as the Church sees the submission to Christ by society as But he certainly praises positive and we should concede to Matthew Peterson that one example of that praise is quoting with approval farewell address Maybe we could say that American has been like an adolescent very sure of its ideas and sense of but not yet possessing such with full The conflicts seen within the American framework may be a sign of Orestes Brownson once said no one has more need of full knowledge of itself than the United and no one has hitherto had It has hardly had a distinct consciousness of its own national and has lived the irreflective life of the with no severe till the recent to throw it back on itself and compel it to reflect on its own its own separate and Its idea is but liberty with and law with Yet its mission is not so much the realization of liberty as the realization of the true idea of the which secures at once the authority of the public and the freedom of the sovereignty of the people without social and individual freedom without Maybe part of really attaining that mission would be to purge enlightenment and the conflicts in America have been because of the opposition of those ideas to other principles deeply engrained in maybe the right side is losing the Have you read the proceedings of the NRA and their attempt at a Christian Maybe that was the direction we needed to go but I wonder if Leo XIII was aware of the NRA and its attempts to repudiate some aspects of the Including a constitutional recognition of the authority of they still aimed at maintaining separation of Church and state Fair This is an interesting text from the De apropos of nothing in context in the De Potentia is whether unformed matter could have been created prior in time to formed matter and is a kind of commentary on the opening of only translating the really interesting let you puzzle through the rest just to irritate John others understood the formlessness of matter not insofar as mater lacked every but as something is called unformed which does not yet have its final completion and and can be posited in this that the formlessness of things even precedes the formation of things in Which would if seem fitting to the order of a wise artisan while producing things in does not immediately institute them in last perfection after they were but first makes them in a certain imperfect being and leads them to perfection vero intellexerunt informitatem materiae non secundum quod materia omni forma sed secundum quod dicitur aliquid informe quod nondum habet ultimum suae naturae complementum et et secundum hoc potest quod etiam duratione informitas rerum formationem Quod quidem si ordini sapientiae artificis congruere qui res ex nihilo producens in non statim post nihilum in ultima perfectione naturae eas sed primo fecit eas in quodam esse et postea eas ad perfectum ut sic et eorum esse ostenderetur a Deo contra illos qui ponunt materiam et nihilominus perfectionis rerum ipse etiam auctor contra eos qui rerum inferiorum formationem causis alii Et hoc intellexit magnus et alii sequaces Quia ergo neutrum a veritate fidei et utrumque sensum circumstantia litterae utrumque sustinentes ad utrasque rationes De think on But it is and not being as youthful as you young must get to A pleasure as This seems to lend a great deal of support to a Lavalesque view of Joshua use of exactly transparent I assume talking about Christian amendment the free encyclopedia Christian amendment describes any of several attempts to amend the United States Constitution by inserting explicitly Christian ideas and The most powerful such attempt began during the American Civil War and was spearheaded by the National Reform NRA National Reform doubt the National Rifle Association would promote a Christian amendment The NRA here had a few supreme court justices supporting I aware of the National Reform Association until a couple minutes after your The duh was tongue in Really recommend Craycraft again on religious gives some fascinating excerpts from including debates on of the and a lot of reflection on the as I said including some by Supreme Court justices kinda curious what you like about my response about If we take it as dogmatically true that no one can be saved without it seems that we have to understand to primarily refer to the infusion of sanctifying grace in the formulation of the it seems like there could be no leeway for belief in things like Baptism of Blood and Samantha true they fought for but as this wonderful little book points out has a longer version as as the war went on the north especially saw the war as very much about ending What They Fought for Lynwood Fleming Lectures in The cynical view is that this was on account of but the the view incorporates that as But the dogma is that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely as a necessity of for By understanding baptism to mean sanctifying you are not actually affirming the There is one And that means the not sanctifying It is an example of understanding the dogma of the Church other than how the Church has always understood Your way is less but it has the vice of not upholding the actual dogma as given by the The standard answer wrt to baptismus flaminis or baptism of blood is a bit more Will post a bit more on that in a second it looks like Baptism of desire is possibly not in the sense you were of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of the place of which it takes as to the remission of but not as to the impression of the character or as to the removal of all debt of It is called because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind Now it is that men are also saved by Baptism of by virtue of the Canon presbytero non and of the Council of Alphonsus Moral Theology Manual Concerning Baptism which a description of the Justification of the impious is being a from that state wherein man is born a child of the first to the state of and of the adoption of the sons of through the second Jesus our And this since the promulgation of the cannot be without the laver of or the desire as it is unless a man be born again of water and the Holy he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Council of Sixth Fourth A description is introduced of the Justification of the and of the Manner thereof under the law of It is not de but sententia fidei proxima But that has nothing to do with my point What about this since the promulgation of the cannot be without the laver of or the desire as it is unless a man be born again of water and the Holy he cannot enter into the Kingdom of The sacrament of baptism is necessary by a necessity of means for salvation for all men without But you are raising a tangential You can dispute with and later decrees of the oly office about calling baptism of desire de fide later thinking Proust overrated is a sign of Also what thing is Joshua been waiting on the you alluded to above and was just confused about the tangential point because of things I read in Ligouri and plagiarize myself this think of Faith is necessary as a necessity of absolutely and this absolute necessity is least in respect to actual faith in God and His Even God could not decree since it is necessary to be ordered to God as a final end to be and hence one must know his final by which I mean the is necessary by not just But its necessity is not absolutely What this amounts to is that the sacrament is the only means we can avail of for And even if does nothing other than excuse one from its necessity as a necessity of since the necessity is not God can supply the res of the sacrament outside of the The necessity of baptism being hypothetical and not with respect to its intrinsic It still remains a funny in a way since the sacramentum et res is not and hence they are not made members of the are unable to receive the other In some way it has to be viewed as outside the means established for what the dogma refers to is the sacramental order which we can use to become incorporated in the Mystical Baptism of are special infusions of sanctifying grace by God in particular essentially irrelevant to the dogma in since we cannot use them in order to be Matthew you I suppose the just up and happened out of the Bad Bad The Other just up and came out of Not the fault at Whatever floats our But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period and I freely admit that the history is up for But that works both not pretend like those arguing it was good paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda Of course the Reformation was largely the fault of corruption in the But between the Reformation and the High Middle Ages was the late Middle My claim was that it was mostly the fault of the popes from and their doctrine of the two swords and the subordination of the temporal to the During that period one in fact sees a whole series of reform movements in the Church that were allied with the papacy Dominicans These were reform movements that Dawson calls Late in that period you get which were initially largely wordly in all French Italian particularism to the emperor the and one one might call It is that goshawfull son of perdition Philip the who in his victory over Boniface VIII brings the High Middle Ages to an and inaugurates the Middle Only during the Avignon exile under the thumb of the and afterwards when the popes had returned to but as Italian princes among the where the distinction between the two swords bit as important to our model as the subordination of one to the and the role of the emperor as universal temporal ruler analagous to the pope as universal spiritual had been practically only then do you get strong reform movements culminating in the But what I find even more interesting about your response is you want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior Fair But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to and American Fair I admit to having often painted simplistic cartoons of America and all the rest of accusing of simplistic views of history was partly studied I do agree that their is a mixture in with some legitimate revival of ancient republican virtue and devotion to the common good mixed with the Lockean But I agree with Bond that ultimately the Lockean element is dominant and corrupts all the good for a universal temporal so of course I admire Madison for arguing for a Union against little democratic of political community is not where I disagree with That is my Maybe not but as in some sense outside the order God has established in His WRT to the status of the The reason Ott o among classify it is as sententia fidei is because the object of the definition was the The mention of desire be read similarly to the excepting of the BVM from the discussion on original did not amount to defining the IC but leaving it Sent proxima means that in their judgment it could be defined even I am not so sure of that recall a few authors using it as an example in the dispute between what could be considered de fide with some arguing that it is only a theological certain and taught but not itself Perhaps beside understand it as already The holy office statements I am thinking of had to do with the reconciliation of certain religious communities descended from Come on Pater the Popes destroyed the idea of the Emperor when they subverted and destroyed the They kept it up afterwards by encouraging a multiplicity of national monarchs and playing them off against each but this bit them in the ass with Henry VIII and the French Ott fwiw first lists Baptism by water since the promulgation of the necessary for all men without for then immediately after arguing that In case of emergency Baptism of water may be replaced by baptism of desire or baptism of blood fidei Without any I relied on other I will see if I can remember where they treated the question and where I got my I think I was understanding Baptism along the same lines but conflating the dogma in question with what the Church teaches about the gift of if the nuance show in my formulation but speaking of the Papal this is Pater own The Body The book The Agostino is published by University of Chicago FWIW my hometown a center of followers of it was one of the first things I encountered coming back to the Your statements would have caused Not that they accept my explanation The crude analogy I used in CCD was that baptism was a bridge built by God for us to get from sin to He orders us to take that Now you may not hear the and hence not be held responsible for not But you still need to cross the bridge to get to the other side of and that is the only means God has offered if you are blocked along the nothing prevents God from rescuing you through like an emergency pick up by a The point I always though necessary to was that baptism of or blood were not only not on par with the they are alternate means to the end but as it were affirmations that God can grant the end without the He has given Still only on the condition that we truly will to use the means He has given us Does that make and that roughly matches the the picture that has stuck with me from the Baltimore Catechism  but use that image with the Feeney as with any image or simple potentially It is only abusively that we say there are since baptism of blood is only denominated such same with baptism of desire only e opere operantis after This is bizarre Power went yet wifi is still outside street are out but the wifi is what witchcraft is I think the ladder rope kind of captures that point Do you have a battery I bought a nice UPS for my computer I have no battery mean I do in storage not in and there one for the wifi nor the Power was off for three stayed think it is witchcraft Maybe they have a built in battery Because even my skype on te same power went off but I think you would know about I would think so will check it out at some And I am suddenly very night this will be the first time in over a month I went to bed before Pater Caleb is an very strong on no a terribly misleading there is only one there This is in my news forever  Rogers just going to read back through the previous comments before I jump Weiss just going to roll my eyes at how petty people think the divine nature You must read them every petty Is the endless thread an or is the ignorance of it I agree with that image is There is only one cf the Nicene Creed I understand what you Are the people or are people thinking the divine nature is And for either of if you allow for God to let everyone into heaven but Hitler and petty suspect Rebecca has a Nietchzean conception of God that is to say that he is not bound by petty rules and The bothers It be of people at least and it be of nature properly Could it be said of eye Something is petty and we thinks it is the necessity of baptism seems a hard rule even Augustine struggled with In truth it is an amazing It seems to me that difficulties are ended when one simply is not bound to the sacramental insofar as He operates outside of the sacramental we say much is Theology can only talk about and reason about the ordinary means of the sacramental since science must be about  I do think that is a drop that familiar with the concept of of but not of To what circumstance would that The Jewish  that makes and also eases the problem of limbo for babies in the case of  The other two claims of though are highly Typically martyrdom is what is mean by Baptism of  Benjamin I too wrestle with this thoughts are not my They are too much for But I suppose the same could be said of Satan as well as the post I can unfollow it if I but it is become like a friend unto an annoying friend To  Jehoshaphat Escalante if only the Hohenstaufen had been just a leetle bit more True when I was a novice we had lessons in the history of our monastery by a gentle old monk In one lesson he started talking about the Investiture He said that the popes were motivated by envy and resentment against the German I was flabbergasted by this as it seemed totally out of But then it occurred to me that he was remembering the that he had learned in history class in during the German Hard to shake of customary ways of thinking I appreciate the concerns of rulers who sought free But the theology of the matter is Regardless of the personal motivation of some of the It is of course always fun to imagine the popes as evil and Many of those popes were also Most famously Gregory Daniel the text accompanying the picture in the book from explains as I the picture is only misleading if you pay it clearly shows that there three kinds of Baptism but rather three senses of the word according to a certain As I said why depicted as ladder Show some people Rebecca Bratten curious where you think the pettiness comes Pater if only the POPES had been a teetle more Weiss Basically the ancients had an anthropomorphic view of the divine nature according to which many petty human traits were attributed to the and by the to Along come Plato and and now we have a sense of absolute etc along comes Christian revelation and we have a sense of God as etc brain My question given all that we have would we go back to an anthropomorphic idea of the divine according to which if we play by his rules smite We agree to play by his rules because he is an absolute being and because he loves us and we wish to love him back as best we But assuming that if we do this damned is really presuming quite a For all we know God might decide to save everyone but it would be presumptuous and unloving of us to bank on this instead of doing as he has I hope he does save but that also let me kick Hitler repeatedly in the ass once all Weiss Daniel approach makes sense to Weiss BTW I actually DREAMED about this bloody thread last I dreamed about a lot of other things as but Heilige Before calling Catholic theology one should first understand I think you Edward Langley the picture is only misleading if you read the text on the I think God is extremely After all the difference between me and the dung on my shoe is less than between me and And if I cared about the well being of even the dung on my shoe with even a small fraction of the care God exercises to that would be pretty after is said because one is caring about de but we are all de minimis compared to is very Chestertonian of you Fitzgerald I think with infants in we should avoid We know in baptism of desire and blood are not open to them being a murder being is not equivalent to Arguments trying to establish such things always wind up either running afoul of the Church extension of baptism of desire via vicarious desire of the parents was ordered expunged from his writings as contrary our beliefs or Pius allocution to or rendering what we do know false extending the concept of martyrdom to being the victim of any sinful yet martyrdom involves more than dying for People For at least years there has been an idea that God could the use of conjoined with including charity follows forgiveness of sins as effect to efficient but precedes it as formal cause precedes its then they could have baptism of but only insofar as they are by having the use of will the acceleration idea is even Aquinas addresses in addressing the martyrdom of the Holy Innocents Ad primum sic Videtur quod martyrium non sit actus Omnis enim actus virtutis est Sed martyrium quandoque non est ut patet de innocentibus pro Christo de quibus dicit super quod in aeternitatis profectum per martyrii gloriam Ergo martyrium non est actus To the first it is thus It seems that martyrdom is not an act of Now every act of virtue is But martyrdom is sometimes not as is clear of the Innocents killed for of whom Hilary commenting on were borne to maturity in eternity through the glory of being a Therefore martyrdom is not an act of Ad primum ergo dicendum quod quidam dixerunt quod in innocentibus acceleratus est miraculose usus liberi ita quod etiam voluntarie martyrium passi Sed quia hoc per auctoritatem Scripturae non ideo melius dicendum est quod martyrii quam in aliis propria voluntas illi parvuli occisi per Dei gratiam sunt Nam effusio sanguinis propter Christum vicem gerit Unde sicut pueris baptizatis per gratiam baptismalem meritum Christi operatur ad gloriam ita in occisis propter Christum meritum martyrii Christi operatur ad palmam martyrii Unde Augustinus in quodam sermone de quasi eos ille de vestra corona dubitabit in passione pro qui etiam parvulis Baptismum prodesse non aestimat Non habebatis aetatem qua in passurum Christum sed habebatis carnem in qua pro Christo passuro passionem To the first therefore it must be said that some have said that in the innocents the use of free choice was miraculously so that they also suffered martyrdom But since this is not shown by the authority of therefore it is better said that the glory of being a which in others is merited by their own the little children obtained through the grace of For the pouring out of blood for Christ is born in place of Whence just as with baptised the merit of Christ work for obtaining through the baptismal just so in those killed for Christ the merit of the martyr Christ works for obtaining the palm of a Whence Augustine in a certain sermon on as if speaking to will doubt your crown in your suffering for who also does not reckon that baptism profits the little ones of You were not old enough to belief in the Christ who was to but you had the flesh in which you were to suffer for the Christ who was to answer here satisfies in part because it tryi and claim speculative but relies on grace as its There have been attempts to apply similar reasoning a baptism but I think it is beyond the ken of We know what God has certain like baptism of blood or desire can be specified in some Of course whether infants who die without baptism are somehow saved from original sin before death or we can say two things They will suffer no injustice and perhaps will be happy Aquinas Parents and others who neglect by putting it off for more than a month after birth for vain mortally sin and will be held accountable as if they excluded their child from even if God saves the child in spite of Daniel I think that is the lowest insult you have given To compare what I said to a Chestertonism I will try harder at having substance and not just witticism Weiss Joshua your problem is that you are equating your interpretation of Catholic theology with catholic theology per And I disagree about the relation between the human person and As persons made in his we are far closer to God than we are to the dung on any personal being has a very high degree of so that each of us exists as though we were the only as a kind of secondary the infinity of a single ray emanating from a in comparison with the infinity of a line extending into infinity on both Our value is and not something that God just plastered onto us because he was bored with the of the The very one Weiss Thomists are so We are infinitely distant from which is why the Incarnation is such a marvelous thing And I guess Pius Pius XII Sixtus etc were all petty here And I am not sure what means Yes we are made ad imaginem But we are like to God is not like to for wanting you to say what you mean and not end halfway through a that each of us exists as though we were the very The very one This grammatically makes no sense Weiss Take a gander at some of been some good stuff done in the last Weiss My computer did I have read everything he has Can you at least clarify what you Or do you believe in heckling and not You are able to edit a post Weiss Each person exists as though he were the only know what happened there except I was eating a funny Joshua I actually think to look at the black even even people like Aquinas use words like in ways broad enough to be properly applied fourth for depends on there being a proper sense in which God is the highest in various kinds or Weiss My Nietzschean God and I are gonna go split some check back later for further in one it seems like what you are saying has to be There is something wondrous and even about a personal being which I mean an individual substance of a rational on the other you surely admit that we are infinitely less than Are you and Joshua just speaking past one Or is there something really fundamentally opposed between what I think that is or even makes sense when speaking of the relationship to But leaving the personalism and disagreements with it I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that the sacrament of baptism is one or that baptism of desire or baptism of blood are denominated so do not impart the character of Since we talking about and in fact they were raised well I can only think that you either reject baptism of or you think they are or you think that the dogma that baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception is or you think the reconciliation of baptism of blood and desire with that dogma is you actually advance a just gave a broad snide about pettiness and and general Yes it is cute to care about actual So from the top baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception fidei baptism of blood and baptism of desire sometimes may be substituted necessity is and only hypothetically Because it is the only means God has given but it is not necessary from its nature for what it so God can act outside of it Baptism of are not sacramental and do not impart the character of And so are only called baptism analogically Baptism of desire works ex opere that of blood quasi ex opere operato Leaving aside the rest is simply well established Catholic WRT Has nothing to do with personalism or If you reject you are a Reject you are not a but you are still going against definitive teaching and are probably materially is the only explanation I have ever if you have an alternate have Rejecting would be a theological error and censurable as And well that is getting into little details Weiss We have to be infinitely less than because God is infinitely more than we enjoy a kind of that the dung on the shoe does not have as an individual substance of a rational but even moreso because of the depth of our interiority and because of our infinite even those who are low on rationality still I agree with Max Scheler that it is in our religious sense especially that we transcend the other animals in our need for our being made for basically talking about the same I but with different structures of interpretation or Dammit stop distracting me firewood to I appreciate the need for chopping that I do not disagree with and Aquinas says as much in a clearer fashion than Scheler ever whole anima est omnia in potentia thing Weiss Regarding sooooo much that can be said about what that thus people are still arguing about here and Weiss I think prudent to keep in mind that the formulation of a dogma is not just the answer to one but also the formulation of a whole new set of or else doctrine would have just dried up at some and ceased to What is there to argue The sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation and that is only the means God has offered rather clear cut by I am not sure what any of that On a completely different I came this close to blasting a hole in the wall of the house last goes out again front door slams open and then I hear something crash in the other working so I grabbed my and raccoon had made it door latch was stuck Okay I almost blast a finger was not on the it is the closest I have Very Chased the thing out with a broom Pretty sure gunshots would have attracted attention Weiss had to shoot a couple of coons that were after my Weiss The reason we argue is that if we have very dear friends or family who are not baptized half Jewish by the very distressing to think that the interpretation of the dogma means no heaven for And this just because presumably God loves Grandpa Though on the other hand things have been sort of shitty for the chosen people for quite some Weiss Time for me to come out of the closet as an go cut that Did anyone here deny the possibility of baptism of that have been more an issue aside whether the will must be or how must explicit faith is necessary and those other details that I recall anyone Pointing out that the as it are not equal to the by exclude your Though I am an massa damnata guy mysel Between the two the latter seems to be very much closer to what the Fathers of the Church The only reason I say almost in the world and seeing how people are shows just how far from God the mass of men are in their daily But I have seen remarkable changes by grace mercy certainly is greater than How it all works only He knows this side of I think the it causes people to think of all their unbaptized friends or relatives as an extension those living in should not cause distress but rather increase trust in God and also our prayers to Him for those you and your Fathers of the Now here is a real question of was John the Evangelist body and into heaven at the end of his The motto of my school is as in to the sources of theology guided by The sources Scripture and the Off to quóniam ad te clamávi tota quia suávis ac mitis et copiósus in misericórdia ómnibus invocántibus good discussion after dragging Rebecca away from that petty wood Going waaay back to point about slavery becoming a goal of the that fits with what and of course lots and lots of early northern recruits were motivated by abolitionist I was mostly talking about the motivations of the Lincoln administration and probably most of Congress as suavis et mitis et copiosus in INDEED deny the loosest interpretation of baptisms of desire and Murder victims and just wanna be desire and just sentimental BS that makes people refuse to see dogma for what it is often mistaken for Has anyone listened to lecture on faith seeking It really is While he admits the sacred science begins in principle with an act of the heart bowing down to he reduces sacred theology to the rational demonstration of the of the Take This leads to He does not even use the but only five What a Sacred theology involves acts of persuasive in keeping with reason but not reducable to an act of to strengthen understanding of the Lecture Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking  Please I would be interested to hear your He seems to reduce the sacred science to rational demonstration of five Of course it is much bigger than Knowledge of God is indeed an but Faith seeking understanding via the sacred science truly is more than this reduction to natural He does seem to get the admixture of error part but he stops right us take for example natural A young by his especially if they are will accumulate a certain amount of knowledge in natural From this point of we are convinced that the reading of great naturalists can help a It is although very Of logic is not necessary at this Let us go a bit there is no question of starting the study of the science of nature with the Physics and the explanation of the notions of form and why not start with the Parts of Necessity of Logic for each of the Intellectual All Thomists are heretics because they do not assent to dogma with sufficient love and poetic TAC requires the study of TAC grads must be exposed as heretics ad aeternum despite the precept to have nothing to do with heretics after the blasphemous mercy has often been mistaken for sentimentality as well  I have not found that to happen nearly so just on tNET over an hour Fair color me skeptical that Scott listened all the way through Perhaps my wife and I will listen to lecture as we fall asleep But probably like to here a defense of the rationality of this curriculum for a change that I necessarily think that this is a bad but just that its order manifest to Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine credit hours each A systematic presentation of the mysteries of the the moral and spiritual norms of Christian the liturgy and the as revealed in Scripture and Apostolic Tradition and as defined by the magisterial documents of the THEO Introduction to the Old Testament Major selections from the books of the Old Testament are read within the norms of Catholic Special emphasis is placed upon the the and the Wisdom One major purpose is to inspire a love of which is fully revealed in Jesus THEO Introduction to the New Testament The Gospels and other books of the New Testament are read in the light of Catholic norms of The course will show how the Gospel texts reveal the real historical true God and true and will address contemporary critics who seek to distance the texts from The course will also introduce the main themes of the Pauline the Johannine and the Catholic The primary goal is to make manifest through an in depth study of the Sacred texts that Jesus Christ is the fullness of THEO Moral Theology A study of the data revealed in Scripture and Tradition concerning what men must do to please Elaboration of the together with sound analysis of human action and a grounding of will equip the student to understand the current crisis in moral THEO Catholic Apologetics A presentation of the basic arguments for the credibility of the Catholic Students learn how to develop both cogent arguments for its defense and effective means of Individual topics range from existence to Papal We are still making it through her first time watching Do we call him John now that still Goyette in my head  The whole thing is getting I was living near TAC for a and came to know the tutors on a first name It is odd to think about That sounds The prima seems reasonable for a cursory overview of the Aristotle in that theology mention Thomas Aquinas Especially an overview of theology that ends in I want to see a principled reason to proceed in that order as well as a defense of the inclusion of Apologetics is the purpose of the Is waaaaaay better than what I rants to the contrary I learned almost nothing in grad and just what it seems like in the purposed Humans are often which is why petty behavior has been ascribed to Whether or not God our vision of him wiII aIways be created in our and that wouId make for a very Iimited that seems to imply a more limited view of Sacred Theology than quaerens  it looks like a college that employed such a curriculum would miss out on the fulness of Sacred Theology But if I wanted to prepare someone for apologetics I would first then familiarize them with based on those two I would educate about certain practical principles of how to and then I would end with how to make an apology for the I think someone for should be the primary purpose of any course of study our vision is not created in our image unless our vision is only from If the vision is truly from then it will merely be expressed in our apologetics should be something theologians and philosophers do in their spare time that is another and a good or lay people I am inclined to agree with Peter seems to indicate something that might seem to say the But sanctify the Lord Christ in your being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in a lay let alone should be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in them without taking a class on I see how that suggests that Sacred Theology is primarily ordered to defense of the could be an art Then study rhetoric certainIy the BIbIe is a very Iimited and contradictory The Oid Testament portrays a rather a horrifying concept of My wife insists that the change from God and God is expIained having a that Geesus was the cataIyst for change in and certainly curriculum that subordinates theology to is getting something I say this as an evangelical who deeply believes in but is not evangelism I think that would depend on whether it subordinated theology to simply speaking or It perhaps has a small part to play in evangelization broadly But before one one must understand what is It is not last as being the downplaying the role of apologetics too I But as a scholarly discipline does not seem legitimate to me still actually unclear about what people mean by spreading the Making disciples of all Telling the good Apologetics seems to mean responding to criticisms of theology in the way one can respond to such How can you not know what evangelization Every once in a while you Catholics still astonish a lot of brilliant men and women throughout history have denied that bible is Given that you have participated in this thread I am sure that you are keenly aware that your tone and statements are highly Given such an it becomes hard to think that you wish to sincerely engage in What do you seek Here there are only sinners who hold a light in their the likes of which you cannot If you dare to let that light that is God himself penetrate your then a world of life and love will open up to If then I am afraid you will find only We preach Christ The Son of son of who has redeemed us all from If then it would only be linked to evangelism insofar as the evangilezandi resist  Samantha what I mean is that I only know what is in a manner proportioned to naming and not the It can be useful for removing The name is pretty much the definition But what precisely is studied in the particular when a priest preaches to his is that Or does evangelization require that the hearers be I think it is How about what one does when teaching theology in advanced overlaps with the category these Paul talks about preaching the gospel to the even though their faith is throughout the Insofar as we are in need of continual we are in need of continual but he also distinguishes between evangelists and shepherds and teachers  I think you can extend the use of evangelist to apply to almost any teaching about but primarily it refers to spreading the gospel to those who heard and accepted it That would seem to be the first the word has become ambiguous especially when we throw the term new evangelization into the Is evangelization part of the active or contemplative And priests in the pulpit should definitely take the opportunity to because of what John said about the overlap of the category with the category catholic I have no idea what is I think it usually means that modern people need to be taught about Catholicism in a novel evangelization is as new as years going to get any newer sounds but whatever new evangelization new good I think what people is that the mode used by the great teachers of the Church from Augustine to Pius XII or so is somehow no longer able to be as effective as it once never exactly sure what the proponents think has I heard it described once by a prelate does faith mean to so this is why confused about what evangelization  a very good question to as long as followed by sound teaching on what faith ought to I just often wonder if I understand all these terms people throw That was the last Face palm by a And hence the I find it especially puzzling in class when the teacher makes a big deal about some relatively straightforward point without ever coming clean as to why that point requires such ApoIogetics is not to say say this outIoud because I know that before and had to Iook it up in my handy Seems Iike the kind of thing that wouId be necessary with any the abiIity to defend it and those trained to do As I understand the is not new with respect to content but with respect to the condition of the It refers to the spreading of the Gospel to who already belong to Christian They have heard of but they yet know the Good News in any meaningful Or maybe it refers to believers in the sense of the already baptized who know or care about the Faith they have not totally sure about Here is New Evangelization is distinct from the Old Evangelization The intended audience for each is The New Evangelization is not directed at or NE is concerned with deepening the religious experience and commitment of nominal NE seeks to call back believers to active participation in the This is from a talk by Bishop Edward Clark on the Emerging Challenge of the NE for a Renewed Church What concerns me about these is that there is no sign that Catholics have ever been in short supply with Ignatius of Loyola in his was anything but it is slightly concerning that people today attach so much value to if someone in day had called him an he would have taken it as an at the very hence the confusion on Also the is I think I read the same thing as you a short while heaven and hell are still effective How about a Penitent Church just for old times a Sack Cloth and Ashes My wife is in CathoIic Charismatic basicaIIy about reigniting or converting to CathoIic faith with a more persuasive rather borrowed from Baptists and EvangeIicaIs near as I can It is sad that this thread moves faster than my eyes can but Goyette for the college spells out what he believes the term seeking understanding and in his address says that for Anselm this means a reasoned demonstration of the existence of and this is not at all what Anselm meant by faith seeking For fides quaerens intellectum means active love of God seeking a deeper knowledge of enim quaero intelligere ut sed credo ut Nam et hoc nisi non do I seek to understand that I may but I believe that I may For I unless I first I shall not So Goyette it seems is describing a sacred theology that is not a fully Catholic sacred but one which he limits to natural The Light of the in fact spells out quite beautifully what faith seeking understanding really means and the previous three Popes have spelled out beautifully the means and ends of sacred It is sad the college does not use these but the constricted one provided by I knew Goyette when he was in his He was very and often adhered to false notions like a puppy sinking its teeth into the cuff of I will certainly pray for him and the Sacred theology employs a wide variety of means to help the believer gain a better understanding of his and not just those logical demonstrations of scientific reason which the college Let us talk about these beautiful paths by which the believer seeks These are the paths of love of the secret ways of you really use a lot of words to say a little Weiss And Aquinas WAS an He trying to I but when one is seriously applying oneself to understanding innovation just will since always something new to or a new appreciation of already acquired There might be a sense in which Aquinas was an but in a much more fundamental sense he was a he developed the received understanding of philosophy and theology in such a way as to more clearly show what was contained in You may be confusing the act of faith with fides The latter presupposes the But these are good Maybe when you start your own TAC will emulate your trailblazing and follow on the new you should go to my alma You would have a field You even need to invent really use a lot of words to say a phiIosopher John I would think that if this New E thing lacked heaven and it be much any kind of evangelization at I pretend to know a lot about but I think the claim is that there is need for new I guess that depends whose claims we are talking I suspect there are as many people using that term as there are people Some will be rightly interpreting the mind of the bishops and some will be I find it Mutated Pediatric Names Linked to Higher Mortality GA lead article in this Journal ARARE LITUS I wish Goyette were on I suspect I have been casting shade on this New in Katherine is standing up for especially as I never heard of it If the content meant to be then I have no a priori beef with Everyone talks about New but not even sure what it looks I think maybe smiling and hugging Goyette was among those to whom I endeavored to lay bare the mysteries of I was at that he just summarized some sections from the beginning of the There was nothing novel in and certainly nothing suggesting we supplant Faith with But not feed the I really know what the NE looks I mean to defend it but to clarify what it is actually purported to I wish I could have you over right now for some coffee and pumpkin But this is the next best I so if new evangelization differ with regard to the then how is it A catchy Dance unclear how it could be different if the matter is the Daniel you and I must differ in disposition with I lived with the Nietos after TAC and I still call Nieto Aquinas cannot really be called an and I would advance that innovation and novelty are the marks of bad What he was a Perhaps you can call that an in a certain but the point is that innovation is not the essential character of his most venerated the ancient doctors of the in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of the theses he that at the time were deemed novel and attacked and even condemned by the archbishop of were actually founded in the Fathers and tradition sometimes with disagreement among and previous scholastic before him were the ones that had Examples of this are His the homo assumptus theory and things like that had made a resurgence in the clinging to the earlier and Fathers of both West and rejected this and advanced the real Christology of the councils He was for all in holding that not all lies were mortal now think he was But the discussion on lying was not always as severe as the made it out to That Christ had acquired and not just Beatific and infused This was rejected by Albert the and Alexander of and after Aquinas by Scotus and But that He had acquired knowledge was not a true innovative but a part of the recovery of a more complete Christology even Aquinas originally denied Christ had acquired and then saw the error in the light of the I could go but all his innovations seem to boil down to restorations of aspects of theology neglected harmonization of sometimes confused and conflicting accounts of the Father boiling down what was always believed to its more intelligible principles What is meant by new evangelization is not that it is a new Gospel to be preached or even that the manner of evangelization before Vatican II must needs but rather that formerly are now as mission In some America has always been canonically treated as mission territory starting with the Plenary Councils of we but never actually setting up full canonical ecclesiatical parishes never actually met all the requirements then required by canon and even by the Plenary they recognized we had a long way to But now even Europe must be treated nations of Lax Catholics have always of in the age of even bad people in some way believed in a way they do not now watching Latino take off their hats and cross themselves in front of a Catholic Church may be Elliot we need more And by convicting the world of sin and calling it to Joshua and Elliot Milco should get together to talk about how great being compared to Chesterton makes you I suspect that what was originally meant by was that there was a first wave of evangelization during the apostolic and patristic and we need another one of those for the present age in light of the rapid expansion of atheism across the the combination of with and other things that people have talked about since the gives one bad and the general lack of clarity about many things seem to do you share my love for the Great and Holy Doctor of Common Sense Elliot from earlier in the thread I think that is the lowest insult you have given To compare what I said to a Chestertonism I will try harder at having substance and not just Michael I thought the text I quoted distinguished the in terms of the recipients of the not in terms of its there are some who are not pagans but who need the Good News preached to This is a new kind of evangelizing because the hearers are often born into Christian why call this evangelization rather than or I am not so clear But what makes it new compared to the Apostles being sent to new continents is clear Cardinal Three Core Elements of The New Evangelization Cardinal Wuerl spoke recently at the Christ Our DEACON JOEL AND LISA SCHMIDT My understanding is that a more formaIized and more traditionaI version of the Charismatic CathoIic RenewaI which has some free form aspect to Iess Southern more straight CCR has catchy hands in the As opposed to the traditionaI CathoIic approach of driving peopIe away whiIe baIancing the Iosses with marriage and Iots of and maybe this is what getting one would approach a baptized person in Michigan differently than one would a pagan in a pagan One wants to deliver the message in a way suited to the But the problem could arise from thinking that the way to win over the hearer is to water down the I think the real problem is that people believe that the message needs to be made appealing to that the burden of credibility falls on the preacher and not on God speaking through Thanks for that John It looks Well to some degree just common sense that you adapt yourself to your I proclaim the Gospel to you in for even though much of the New Testament was composed in that But in another way you are quite it would be silly to try to figure out what values the hearer already has and then try to make it sound like the Gospel is just an attitude found often among new which is that new evangelizing involves easing people into the gospel with lots of affirmations and so that they never feel put down or like their views are being I enjoy Chestertonisms in small is he writes every line as if to make it and thus never really goes beyond throwing up bombastic into the real substance of what he is talking It also makes his writings less for finding witticisms Belloc was the better essayist in his better better of the he gets less love I I agree with the but an understandable If you think the gospel is just like any other bit of then got to sell it to I am not sure who the just hear the need for a new and I agree with it as far as that Step is Ioves you no matter Versus the oIder styIe of going to CCR is simiar to a step program but has or steps I Each one designed to bring peopIe in without anxieties or fears or ObvioiusIy affirmation and smiIes What is the other option Scare Threaten That was the oId medievaI I suppose you couId hope for osmosis or a sudden direct visit from God It sounds like people are more afraid of an evangelization that replaces the saving truth with a One should speak the truth in Need the need the One or the other alone Katherine I thought with all the ellipses that you were just cherry This is the antidote to the idea that the Church is overIy I prefer to kidnap people and rack them until they consent to The true medieval I totaIIy miss the rack pandering makes me I hate it in all of its I refuse to nor to speak to someone if I am being pandered to I think the idea is to use one to get to the rather than go backwards and get People always tell that story about Dominic staying up all night converting the but they normally mention his methods of who or what is NE strikes me as pandering Well there is that whole keys Charismatic movements are clearly pandering absoIuteIy pIease teIi me piss off Ashman  the other option is the eventuaI Ioss to Or clearly into pandering with Ashman at Michael Beitia also thinks Sunday School is Why are charismatic movements Because people want In that your traditionalist church pandering to you with all its incense and whatever kind of orienting of the alter and If they reaIIy wanted to provide free or at Ieast happy I believe established tNET practice is that feeding the Scottegrine troll is permitted but not whereas feeding this new and less charming troll is strictly disallowed who disagrees with me and I have no reasoned katherine seems Humanity has left the medieval world of cold ideas and eternal and entered the world of In the old God was an eternal But if he is to stay if God is going to continue existing at he needs to become an Enter the Charismatic I really know what the Charismatic Renewal is like in the Catholic but your description is accurate at all to the Charismatic movement that I am familiar missed a lot I even know there was a new The new troll just said you A deceptively thing to as a you might be above the rule of tNET law new Ashman I worked for the largest charismatic catholic community in the US at one Freaky No one has special privileges on had a few and in the lulls between worn the troll mantle ourselves in Sadly for we need the other to FB is a Hericlitian and trolling is the father of all Guitar Masses pandering maybe tutors I deny Katherine after my I not a real just on the  done a bit of I have seen the sort of catechism where the kid is asked a question and his wrong answer is congratulated and never Rather stunned me as this was the Even bishops using it to demonstrate That has something of flattery to I LIAR Lifeteen pandering The Church had a nice history of pandering which it used untiI it became strong enough to convert through Much of the traditions have basis in pagan rituaIs and stories and were adopted in order to create a commonaIity and bond between the Church and those they hoped to If they pandered a IittIe back there might be no Church to pander martyrdom not pandering say what you mean by not martyrdom Resurrection is a So everything every one of us has ever done was pandering You mean like account of the knack of guessing at what will please rather than the craft of knowing and delivering what is actually Martyrdom definiteIy since that was all something like Instead of telling people the you water down the truth to make them feel all about feelings and talking down to the other that tutory enough of guitar masses have nothing to do with not telling the people the truth beIief a whoIe Iot about how it makes you PeopIe actuaIIy feeI better when they Sure Made to and as if truth The of denying other people the truth so you can manipulate their emotional and an Samantha you think the mass is a Sacrifice where the body and blood of Christ truly become are my Truth is a bitter and moreso if it is thought to be a Is it pandering to have music in since that might be Having air conditioning is if you think that there is such a thing as the yes This moves too fast for Off to take the wife out on the It on whether talking about Gregorian Chant or Singing is practicaIIy the There are a lot of missing middle terms to these guys Middle terms are for other I prefer but then modern enough to like the minor Off to the  that reminds me of a student of mine who criticized the baltimore catechism by saying that its arguments validly if missing the middle term you made an argument MiddIe terms are just thrown a bunch of opinions out Why does someone have to be and to the Because they think that the kids get without being It is fundamentally looking down on the person tNET was founded on the bold art of Arguments are for Teaching small children things through like Sesame is age But a grown I need that trying to make your forum not going to So songs in no good even if they help elevate your soul to because your soul should only need the cold light of and the sacrifice of the mass Songs in Mass should either be inspiring or songs made to and more sure you can imagine the tone of voice I intend That either Bach or Schönberg I like I know how I ended up defending guitar The real problem with guitar in the Catholic church is how BAD you guys are at it It takes the focus off of and onto the person Which is backwards SO BAD Protestants suck at it too The guitar is malum in you Protestants are worse at the but because everything is so bad with the guitar in itself is less Some of us Our church back in Denver had terrible guitar music that was a weekly source of mortification for me sort of the high all sing some Haugen You guys are I want Ferrier to come back and bless me The smell of fish befits the dignity of but not that of a  at least RDF is a tutor Our church in St Louis has have to agree in that if they start doing I choose a parish by the donuts they serve My favorite CCR My Little Pony Friendship is Magic Theme Song Favorite and Subscribe for more I just assume that bad donuts are a sign of bad you cannot be trustworthy in little matters Donuts are but cream fiIIing is Just for you Edward Langley Guitar music makes one feel is Chant lifts soul to is good guitar music can lift soul to But all excused from not knowing since Catholic and thus have experienced I deny that on principle and on experience this is not the hill I want to die some of us born Some of us have been to A LOT of different Archambeault I remember having one of these Before something happened to reach about May you achieve not the right apparently Weiss let us abolish anything that is even beautiful in our liturgy or Heaven forbid that people should embrace the faith for any reason other than that they are scared I think we have a little means ends issue a silly fallacy I could just as easily say the same thing about Mass  I think you have a little straw man problem This is my proposaI for getting more peopIe into church Why We All Need Universal Spiritual Care The ACA health care bill go far enough towards saving the American People and we must include MIC the right Weiss the best music is at And the best parties at Jewish understand Michael ones with good guitar is what i meant there I like my guitar music evil Weiss just trying to make as many comments as possible to see how long the thread will Weiss Violin is Paganini last I checked I was in the top have to do a hell of a lot of trolling to catch and you can play Paganini on the In his father played the  citing your citing they seem so postulating that our experiences overlap Thunderstruck you still in the top I think I might be gaining on you Maybe when seen all that understand where are those stats Ed Weiss But explain to me why it is icky to appeal to people and make them feel comfortable about discussing the With all the false versions of Christianity out people are very prepared to be suspicious and fire and brimstone is unlikely to make them want to The ethos element of classical rhetoric is just as important as the And in this the ethos is part of the I still see what fallacy supposed to have committed no one said and straw man moral relativism  understand Samantha Weiss And no way I could possibly catch up with you This is my entertainment in between class prep and grading and flogging my I hate postulating things an  I have just decided to call moral relativism a Weiss hell and damnation fire and postulating things is all anyone has done on this I prefer low No I believe that was no one said hell and damnation either denying the same thing Weiss and who said anything about warm I did just now all these words are so intellectual and you think we need to just feel some more my kumbaya Weiss using but the missing premises are hidden in the Not to be available unless one has achieved the Here have some michael W Smith Above All It is time to worship the And this time with this great singer that I michael W what can I I my opinion is that if you type more than one fifteen comments appear and render it irrelevant My own views on music in the liturgy are informed by ten years of suffering through Mass at Weiss Every Man his Own Straw Sustainable Logic for the You know the Francis FUS was named I think he would approve of guitar In most matters syllogisms are unnecessary because the subject at hand is evident and one can effectively convince interlocutors by making judgments that get them to see the commonly available object under a particular Complaining because people using syllogisms is Weiss mass at I stopped going there and started going to Then discovered that everyone was insufferable and Now I drag myself to the most basic little parish though communing with nature and toasting Dionysos might be a more appealing way to spend a I love it when TACers make their aesthetic preferences into moral They are entitled to it because TACerness is human nature They are obviously the prudentes Aristotle wrote about in the  Weiss Syllogisms are unnecessary because they only show us what we know unless you want to grant a synthetic a priori and cowers under liturgical music is a magisterial Oh a It seems to me that sacred theology is much more than a rational demonstration of five The authority definitely seems to be on the side of the see Tra Le for Weiss A I think you TACers allowed I figured you smothered them with copies of the Summa or We apply the standard remedy for argumentum ad baculum Weiss Imagine how wild Palestrina must have seemed when he first appeared on the the organ will and hopefully sacred theology will return again Anselm meant much more than a reasoned demonstration of the when he said his faith was seeking The organ is an Weiss If this were a FUS someone would have made an organ joke LONG Chant is highly The organ causes tears of joy to I know about Palestrina appearing musically that kind of thing generally a feature of classical The organ is a patch for poor musical it makes it so that no one has to listen to the awful droning of their neighbors during Where is John He needs to defend his reduction of sacred theology to what he Scott needs to get with the we are currently talking about The Organ is the main mast of the waiting for him to show us how the core theology curriculum at Christendom is the right way to do My Virginia license plate said CHANT Weiss just because very few actually bother to play the organ My classmates and I at Christendom read everything ever written by Weiss complain about people not playing the Sometimes they try to play it when they and that is infinitely Weiss in which case Christendom has been holding out on since all the rest of us would LOVE to read his lost Or if the organ being used as a patch for horrible being used to keep the congregation entertained during the offertory or the The Arabic music sometimes used in the Melkite liturgy of John Chrisostom is nice That is a problem but never actually experienced it that I can God forbid there should be silence at Weiss for an academic thriller satire right Umberto Eco eat your heart Choirs make me want to vioIate most of the But if you feel it must be from Christendom is a rose garden surrounded by an iron We do not submit principles of faith to sophomoric heterodox there are objective standards for sacred as set out by the and guitar Masses meet but my food is about to TAC will slay dragons when they ramp up their theology an amp or trying to be If they pIayed HaIo at go every day Porcupine Tree Halo HQ Thanx everybody for watching if u want listen my soundcloud enjoy Lex orandi lex If the theology needs to be amped they need to add some amps to the I have a Christendom graduate right here next to me who would like to say something UP The problem with is that they seem to subordinate their whole study of theology to in evidence of which is that their course of studies ends with to push back a It may seem like but I am you should tell us why reasonable to put apologetics at the culmination of the required course of Tra le Sollecitudini Pius motu proprio on sacred music Christendom just seems to waltz through all the complicated dogmas at the very beginning of the course of is this supposed to indicate that the dogmatic matters can just be skimmed through early on and left can you tag some of your Christendom love to know what they think of their faithful I would highly recommend The Spirit of the The whole thing is a but a chapter in there about sacred music which is I Iove how peopIe take something very simpIe supreme being beyond and them muck it up with pedantic detaiIs about it with their fight about it for years and then caII me a I this is what God Incessent infighting and name AIi Piano is worse than guitar at the Church allows string instruments and at least as an for a long but percussion it never The Organ should be used minimally when not supporting On certain for processions and recessions it is great to have it But I am with Milco on not playing it as filler ok Everyone is on the same path to emotional We are our own I think this is the music we need at Mass  Christendom provides the full outlay of the principles of sacred then dives into the principle one in Moral and Sacramental It does not just provide a truncated version of sacred theology as a demonstration of rational That is just a false presentation of sacred theology and leads to and that is a very funny picture clear by now a The real question is whose hand is stuck up your Plus Christendom has a couple of world class Real not threadworn Catholic dads masquerading as Victorian men of Plus Christendom grads are about percent true I may be the only That what what they used to say about John and the hand belonged to Margaret Nice I am pleased to be named among the likes of Margaret That even make any Isak you are a man of remarkable Your opposition has solidified a majority based on are our own But that beats being someone does it Why are we not discussing the testament so we can go to heaven with the I wouId hope God wouId be Iess hard on those who seek their own truth and faiI to find rather than those who simpIy foIIow what has been Iaid out for them according to some guys who are dead and are beyond  I rise today to thank Sir Isak for helping to secure the defeat of his own Shout out to The Honorable The pilot was Everyone should watch in his introduction to sacred effectively defines sacred theology as the rational demonstration of five Since Elliot Milco is maybe I should backtrack a few weeks and insist again that the Christian intellectual tradition survives only at Yale They must have repIaced anything reIated to teaching the Constitution with that because we now nothing of inteIIectuaI originaIism true actually I think anyone tried to teach me originalism there I find any professors who would teach me geocentrism either Damn liberal bias we have the CathoIic Church for that I hear you over the theme song from My Little I thought Paw PatroI was The bulk of the problems in theology today can be traced back to the Jesuit to the adoption of certain Scotist theses on one hand and nominalism on the They are only partially responsible for von Balthasar or made worse after probably better to blame the I have in mind the following The over emphasis on conscience and conflation of it with prudence Subtle sometimes absurdly immoral in implications the Jesuit treatment of wearing a habit while visiting a you are excused lest you cause Treating divine causality as univocal Denying the distinction of potency and act Until denying the universal call to treating contemplation and meditation as something extraordinary and not a call for the laity Lagrange had a hand in finally smashing that Due to their leaving little room for the beatitudes and counsels or even virtue in morality which allows for moral especially when everything is Denigration of the role of the liturgy Emphasis on the experiential in the spiritual life Compare this to as etended to the follows because they think laity are generally called to anything beyond And in like emphasis on the minimal adherence to what suffices rather than perfection The treatment of the contrition necessary in confession as being sufficient if it is only fear of hell hold but we are told it is Church teaching when it is Jesuit leaving out any need for love of God I could go Many saints in the Jesuit but the problems of today are visible then as in seeds of Hey John Thomas Aquinas College defines sacred theology solely as the rational demonstrations of the existence of hey Scott an BWAHAHAHAHAHA A syllabus of the errors of the Jesuits what is a forum for Just trying to stir the an Guess we have any laxist Suarezians here tonight can have all the hand guitar strumming you We have plain chant for the and organ for the other parts offertory but then a solemn high with deacon and every Sunday also the practical anthropological error of privileging will over intellect just surprised to find someone who still reads Garrigou You like his spiritual Beitia where are not too far from you geographically My experience with is that he is a very average there are a ton of people who still read Garrigou But I read too so I hold myself to but on the other side of a major city My professors read but then I did not I think he was blackballed by Toronto for some Aesthetic preferences are moral The reason for this is that the natural purpose of all aesthetic art is to lead and aid the soul in its pursuit of the transcendent So of some music is bad in this some and of the some is unfortunate for Just think of me as an Arts Master rather than a to put it into Sez you  I love Garrigou Being on the other side of a major city is like being on the dark side of the Or maybe on the other side of a black Just dont go through I find a syllabus of errors that the Jesuits make have to be beside the In my university which is manned by their primary considerations are the pastoral guidance of the and and the saving of They also are quite intelligent and expert at I love the is average on some things but superb on He did prefer teaching Spinoza before he was ordered to do His discussion of the universal call to holiness and contemplation as something even the laity are called to do though is one of his great and where has has left his biggest mark on the He was made the first chair of Spiritual Theology at a Pontifical University fora and I believe will be canonized one day belief Maritain held as despite their falling I would imagine like being a large striped sock covering the smelly feet of a slander Lady Beside what I was the one that raised the It is the point from the fiat of the one who raised Whether it is important or not is another Do we still have any of his course notes or books on Or did he not leave any Jesuits used to be the Antichrist but now too stupid to have any interesting profile at all  Joshua remind me we have to talk about contemplation and Saudreau sometime News JA thinks the Pope is just Antichrist Not now though  Ah Here come the Michael seems like the kind of person think that  think that the Pope is the Antichrist just I hit too late  my well an but who am I to Follow the morning sermons that Francis is giving in Santa Marta has been giving over the past Time well learn a thing or Catholic Mass CMAA Colloquium of Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the Nativity of John the principal Lawrence the sanctuary Where is the real presence of our of Universal of Probably up in heaven with all the unbaptized who still had hope in watching kids argue over Santa not nearIy as why is there an ironing board in the middle of that marble supposed to be an we go where the people I think many people iron any I know Saint Maximillian Kolbe had neither an iron nor an but he still said not by And he said it ad orientem people apparently choose ugly I get that the crypt church in the national It is still ugly  just from an angle that get the sanctuary but my book is for sale right above in the bookstore not an Scott no one chooses ugly in the post vatican II church they have a stand and my book is in the window apparently most people chose ugly in the post VII church I know if been but it actually ugly good for but it is still an ugly with an altar that used to include the relics of now relegated to a glorified ironing board A long time before I was when I was in high school I almost used to live in that crypt church There is no such thing as an ugIy Church in the of I said ugly are a bad but ugly do not change I think Beitia has some issues to I think the same is thought about mr scott I meant to say the II ministry has some issues to iron My The church behind our house was wiped out by but important to I probably have some issues no offense jerk I know I have some issues aaah a tNET love in Liturgy is the architecture of the not go Scott soon Peterson will be accusing me of being a The dome at Holy Transfiguration in is not up to Melkite but its liturgy is Elliot Milco should check out Michael if he happened to You used to be so One of these days I will get book on the decline of Beita probably goes to which is way too far south for a SJC When they were they were very But when they are bad they are Celebrating Golden Years in the Priesthood A video tribute to Cornelius Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences What are the liberal Why should one study Of here is the REAL video on Father More Than A Father Thomas Aquinas College student Dedicated to Cornelius make I JAMES HORNER  Let us ascend We left the Western Church in and became Eastern in union with but no scandals or disputes about things our kids do not need to know Never be ashamed of who you be  That reminds me of a lady on the Wisconsin Catholic radio she was telling some cheesy and the punchline came out in her thick accent like beeya a I have lived with stoic indifference to Hooyar ever I think Christendom really lost something in Warren May perpetual light shine upon Not all Christendom students are good at but they will always be tNET loves you no matter This is Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences What are the liberal Why should one study watch Michael Beitia Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger Daniel Lendman Matthew Peterson Joel HF Isak Benedict Joshua Kenz What do the numbers Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff Neill Jeffrey Bond John Boyer Daniel Catherine Ryland Pater Edmund Nina Rachele Jody Haaf  Megan Baird It is how awesome we his name is black because he is unawesome number of comments Should be a sign of shame definitely a measure of spousal anger but in the world of they have become a mark of So many JA Escalante Escalante Which would make him just under me been fixing them This is a VERY INTOLERANT McArthur addresses the Students of Thomas Aquinas College On April with the academic year I should really try to cut VERY INTOLERANT AWESOME commented more but I know enough about what you guys were It seemed smarter to try and piece things Lauren Ogrodnick John Ashman Frank Morris Adrw Lng Sam Rocha Tim Cantu Marie Aaron Gigliotti Sean Robertson Katie Duda How many comments did Peregrine Bonaventure make before he Something weird is going on with those numbers they definitely add up to more than we have here I was thinking Jehoshaphat that would be an interesting I am guessing you agree with Lagrange and Saudreau against Poulain about infused contemplation versus acquired contemplation in the It seems so obvious once it is pointed out that the error of the Quietists involved ascribing to acquired contemplation what belonged to infuse contemplation We could eat chocolate while dissecting Poulain Because Peregrine made about comments which went into the then some then he was killed by Mark Hand reverse  Elliot Milco McArthur even gets in a dig at Chesterton at in that More Founding Document Thomas Aquinas College American Catholics are becoming increasingly aware Chesterton revealed how nature is McArthur demonstrated how God may be I would choose the former any Plus McArthur called American universities a That was over the Not More than Pater rerunning the statistics because pretty sure off significantly think i am over and still about Keep in mind the untimely MURDER of Peregrine Bonaventure because YOU HANDLE THE adding his comments to Mary come on tell us about Do you still believe we are the same You have an interesting tendency to make all the same arguments  And that bestiary you claim to have written was advertised on Kickstarter under his not surprised it was under a different I think anyone would seriously want to take credit for that poetic Did you actually buy That is really funny you should say because others have been saying how different we The bestiary was written by Jon Scott and marketing by The first draft of the couplets and engravings were reviewed by Nathanson who described it as It does not pretend to be high but it is what it Thank Even the worst of the moral poems cannot be described as an atrocity or but as being bad because they lack this or that quality of the form of so consider remarks as being or for what they are Remember there was a time he wanted to strike me for throwing mud onto a politician who was lining up votes in Catholic parishes during a political I am wondering if TAC could have some crusty trad bishop ban The Blessed Book of Then it may sell even better than it is would you like me to send you a copy of the I am sure the opening quatrain will make you Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of The Blessed Book of Beasts There is a tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual Jesus The Blessed Book of Beasts is the gift book of the Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of the Fox looking up to the Moon did fair Moon can you tell me Morning breaks and I must And the Moon looked down in Run now got your And the Moon reached Her white arms But by that time the Fox was And on the High Tree the Fox looking up to the Moon did fair Moon can you tell me Morning breaks and I must And the Moon sang out in ho ho Dr Neumayr in this video says that these lower sciences perfect the higher science of and this clearly seems to be In fact the Queen perfects the as it is the Dogma of the Church which states that without the principles of revelation then reason alone cannot obtain high truths without some admixture of This is evidenced in that even the Doctors of the Church erred in whereas Dogma unveils revelation with authority and Goyette in his lecture of goes even further to reduce theology as seeking to the rational proofs of the existence of This is NOT sacred This is natural Sacred theology must begin with an outlay of Her own which is the interpretation of Sacred From there it uses a variety of principally dialectical and rhetorical in to help the student acquire a theological habit of mind and a spirit of devotion which draws the person into devotion of This involves a doing as well as an This is spelled out very well in the last five papal Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences What are the liberal Why should one study Operations of the queen are always perfected by  Least I never told anybody to go to  This is still A graph Updated top Michael Beitia Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe John Ruplinger Daniel Lendman Scott Weinberg and the same as Peregrine Matthew Peterson Scott Weinberg by himself Joel HF Isak Benedict Joshua Kenz I will need to work harder if I am to stay in the top Perhaps I should just type out my papers on One sentence per Or I could do a running political I am rather happy that I am ahead of I help but notice that return coincided with his ouster from the alumni Question for is all of what is now called theology a That is systematic theology a but not positive If then is positive theology to be considered theology properly would Aquinas call it Or perhaps should it not be from systematic If so would you extend the term to cover How about homiletics and While not interested in engaging Scott someone earlr threw up the course of study at Now it seems to me that they are operating under a different notion of what theology even I call as a science or but they And the first year seems to rest on the presumption that positive theology is something really distinct from and should be done prior to is probably not a good candidate to try and deduce anything from on this but at least he might be confusing positive theology with merely symbolic Seems to me we would claim positive theology patristic and are not to be really distinguished from systematic but that they are the same with the former pertaining in a greater way to its sapiential But I do get the impression that Christendom treats theology very Joshua I have had similar As I consider strictly speaking is because its object is namely There no formal divisions in I that all the things that are now called theology are of two The first is theology divided This would include things like moral biblical As well as divisions in sacramental theology There is another fundamental division in that is also found as part of study and this as I think of theology as art there is a better My thought is that theology in this sense stands to Theology strictly speaking Sacra the way the art of logic and the art of mathematics stand to their respective In this category I would include pastoral and the Edward like your thoughts as I know you never Does moral theology have God as Or is it rather man and what ought to be Even it is actions insofar as he is ordered to Respondeo dicendum quod sacra ut dictum una se extendit ad ea quae pertinent ad diversas scientias propter rationem formalem quam in diversis scilicet prout sunt divino lumine Unde licet in scientiis philosophicis alia sit speculativa et alia sacra tamen doctrina comprehendit sub se sicut et Deus eadem scientia se et ea quae Magis tamen est speculativa quam quia principalius agit de rebus divinis quam de actibus de quibus agit secundum quod per eos ordinatur homo ad perfectam Dei in qua aeterna beatitudo Proof I answer Sacred being extends to things which belong to different philosophical sciences because it considers in each the same formal so far as they can be known through divine although among the philosophical sciences one is speculative and another nevertheless sacred doctrine includes as by one and the same knows both Himself and His it is speculative rather than practical because it is more concerned with divine things than with human though it does treat even of these inasmuch as man is ordained by them to the perfect knowledge of God in which consists eternal Proof of the Respondeo dicendum sacram doctrinam unam scientiam Est enim unitas potentiae et habitus consideranda secundum non quidem sed secundum rationem formalem puta asinus et lapis conveniunt in una formali ratione quod est obiectum Quia igitur sacra Scriptura considerat aliqua secundum quod sunt divinitus secundum quod dictum omnia quaecumque sunt divinitus communicant in una ratione formali obiecti huius Et ideo comprehenduntur sub sacra doctrina sicut sub scientia Proof of the major I answer Sacred doctrine is one The unity of a faculty or habit is to be gauged by its not in its material but as regards the precise formality under which it is an For stone agree in the one precise formality of being and color is the formal object of because Sacred Scripture considers things precisely under the formality of being divinely whatever has been divinely revealed possesses the one precise formality of the object of this and therefore is included under sacred doctrine as under one How about Thomas properly divides theology materially creature proceeding from the reditus to Christ and He only divides into speculative and and beause the speculative and practical are formally but because in theology they are unified because of the namely God and the creature as related to And even such a if in Aquinas at is not explicit and is more centered in the material division than a formal Positive and systematic would divide it into of revealed and but it seems that this is like treating the Definitions and Postulates of Euclid as one and the propositions as Insofar as positive theology often proceeds it perhaps is like dialectics in discovering the first Now you suggesting to be seen as a theological Would you the of the the Church Fathers of that from apologetics as say Catholic answers does One division I saw placed it as a subdivision of fundamental namely as a narrowing of the study of revelation considered But maybe it can be said that the apologetics of the or perhaps of a Robert involved doing some actual insofar as the principles of theology were explained and argued but insofar as apologetics is and has its aim not at the discovery of but the defense of it from that is not but an art that makes more or less use of In which something like Catholic Answers would be even further removed from as at their only present authorities for magisterial while certainly avoiding theological conclusions and at best doing a minimal exposition of the and not so much of the principles this in particular pertains to your doctrine does not treat of God and creatures but of God and of creatures only so far as they are referable to God as their beginning or Hence the unity of this science is not maybe it can be said that the apologetics of the or perhaps of a Robert involved doing some actual insofar as the principles of theology were explained and argued but insofar as apologetics is and has its aim not at the discovery of but the defense of it from that is not but an art that makes more or less use of This seems more or less correct to It also seems reasonable to understand the division of positive and systematic to be something like what you Maybe it is a The difficulty is it is not a real division of the object our mode of approach to the With all this in while obviously gives a bad rep to Christendom student of whom I befriended in Virginia and were not idiotic by any a glance over their theological courses sows an extreme emphasis on The core curriculum is nothing but positive and at that mostly centered in symbolic theology pronouncements of even in the context of the two courses on scripture on the For a theology you could have only courses in and those would be the Trinity and You could have there is a lot of room for but there an ordering to it as befits a Doronzo remarked that the breadth of theology increased because of where each doctor became a specialist one in systematic theology of the this one is positive scriptural but that the depth suffered for In I met some of the professor they were solid it does look like that fragmentation of theology that has been so problematic in having For a bright that can be a hindrance overcome easily enough with for a bad it can be the confirmation of theology as a set of propositions taught by the without any understanding of the One might think TAC could be improved with ever so little adding magisterial guidance Freshman year in That seemed to me an issue at the DSPT and not studying philosophy in the proper remediable by a student or an advisor who knows better and but still an This is why I plan to start a graduate So be sure you get your I am hoping that things will get rolling in the unity of the science but that is a pretty extended sense of biology and physics are all the same science in that they have knowledge of the created world as their Benedict Least I never told anybody to go to AII is fair in war and king of the I want the stats on how many times the word has been used in tNET versus in the I think moral theology does have God as its Its first principles are the infallible interpretation of revelation in to such as the Dogma that Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying  What does that  I thought moral theology was ought man to Moral theology is is revealed about man and his operations by like theology and by this I has GOd revealed to us about how man ought to I think there is something to that I capitalized the in God to emphasize the notion of It a I I think how man ought to act is definitely a part of It has a lot to do with grace I find thelogy can be very difficult in the socratic method or without a really good professor One wouId assume it naturaIIy ecompasses but it often cIaims one whiIe doing Or more It generaIIy works backwards to get the Scripture to say what they want it to Much as how we the Constitution to With the misuse of that document over imagine the Ieeway miIIennia gives of course there was a divinely inspired interpreter to keep us from doing just the  And I know this may sound but the Magisterium is the only theologian you can I think we see progressively greater clarity of revelation through the ages in the It is a slow moving theology in but this gives us time to catch I find theology to be difficult even with a good But I agree with you about finally a lecture method is a safer and more efficient way to learn I think that thinking of the Magisterium is a really helpful Church as with its own internal dialectic lecture is probably the most efficient way of learning It is much more mathematically efficient than watching a classmate fail at a chalk at  I know of anyone who holds that the discussion method is the best method you and your German I do think given modern the discussion method has In we are bad at listening unless we think we are going to get to talk we have short attention I think that TAC is wise to adopt the discussion The ITI uses the discussion but it is much more heavily And this seems there is less discussion at TAC when talking about upper level classes as Especially if you had to suffer through Berquist I assume you are being facetious about But I think that is actually but another story you did say that you are a I prefer to say personality what she they did pull him off of my thesis defense after my adviser bitched  I have said I am glad that people were only much more  In that I revoke my resolution to cut back all moderate people Intemperance only happens past got to be over by I can be But you were here from the I start until tNET was already the wonder of I probably have a more intemperate ratio of comments per time spent tNETing  On the other I have considered and held back from making several what she so I am clearly more temperate than Daniel I hit the mom before we got to we all knew Did Oh Has anyone tried going back to the hahahaha no no browser in the world could sustain that Once I tried to find an incriminating comment Michael made only a few thousand comments Even that much led to despair The going back at at a time is a especially because you were the only time I have been wrong in the entire history of tNET was when I misspelled the third time Caesar trying to incriminate me your last comment I have comments up so So my plan is eventually to have this whole thing printed out on a giant roll of and drive it around America in a painted school bus with my troupe of mimes and magicians and displaying portions of it in every town we stop more like print it on toilet paper Might even manage to start a new religion based on the esoteric teachings of TNET  SURE you could do TP wipe your butt in Are those really the only times you think been but I like humor I am bummed that I miss when out when Richard Delahide Ferrier and Katherine Gardner are in your tNET let me know if you come across many insulting comments against Jane Austen that he now claims he never made you should be sad about that never I have Despite the notion of I have a distinct feeling of I you liked a comment of mine from see if I can crash this codes seems to be rather It should not be this As I descend I think we need to work toward a reconciliation between Isak Benedict and I think we would all agree that Jane Austen is a pretty mediocre writer the crappy photoshop is funny I made it to and then stop Daniel you must be I have up and it is pretty  But I just take seriously the silly stuff and appreciate what can be appreciated and I am pretty As long as he insult But he has apologized and so I say we should as It does help keep the TNET and all tNETers out there are still damnable There is only One and He apologized for Definitely not for that nasty bullshit on my profile a cartoon A Looney Of course open to reconciliation with I show my love in the form of  I missed that about the profile  He made me cry talking sobs here Cause such a  I cry when he called me a I will abandon my Because I am a stoical an emotionless I did not call you a I did not equate you with the loose woman in poem I know you are a model of Catholic a rose in the a noble woman and I am no I just studied literature and the rhetoric of the I do think it is important to point out flaws in approach to the and no offense where are just having fun Hip chick is not the worst thing to be I think you owe a couple others  I refuse to accept I like the feeling of outrage I do think it is problematic to define sacred theology as the rational demonstration of the proofs of This limits sacred and tends to support It supports because students of the Faith tend to pick articles of faith and place them into their syllogisms to support their which is the opposite of Sacred theology proceeds generally in a dialectical I the sacred dogmas used as starting Not as in the natural At least this is how Thomas appears to It seems to me that Aristotle blends dialectic with persuasion quite well when he defines Rhetoric as the counterpart of and this is how he Church The Church does not teach sacred theology in I agree with I do think it is problematic to define sacred theology as the rational demonstration of the proofs of existence no one defines this way I disagree with Sacred theology proceeds generally in a dialectical I the sacred dogmas used as starting I am not sure how serious Isak is in his claim that I offended and how I offended him so deeply if in fact he is I do not mind his little They are not Please feel free to shed light on this if you I agree with no one defines this way I disagree with The Church does not teach sacred theology in I think in his clearly defined it this As the rational demonstration of the of the which he further defined as five This was it seems to and the origin of still surprised Isak put head on the flying spaghetti I sacred theology begins with its the sacred It proceeds in a reasonable but not necessarily in a logical or strictly scientific but dialectically and I believe the Church only teaches natural theology in in the strict scientific The rest is dialectical and The encyclicals are rhetorical and dialectical only the modern Earlier encyclicals were purely definitive see also Unam Sanctam Definitive is not necessarily A theological syllogism takes one premise from natural one from sacred By very definition it cannot be but admits that reason is I think there are some who would have us become Baptists and turn our reason because you not right a screen I typed definitive is definitely not I believe the preambles of the Faith are all natural and all This is natural I think you are a good Screen shot liar  I Ha even when you say something nice still wrong are you calling arguments from so would this be a theolgical The whole is greater than the part The whole of the deposit of the faith is Revelation AND the interpretation of revelation the deposit of the faith is greater than the of the faith arguments from fittingness are weaker than dialectical Not in always Not in I think arguments from fittingness are By dialectical I was meaning the kind at the beginning of the It uses the prevalent wisdom as its stating But it this it uses You see this in the encyclicls and I think in the development of doctrine over time via the ordinary one Pope referring to his predecessor or a finding at a previous to begin the argument and develop it Argument from authority is the weakest form of according to Boethius I think that is a rhetorical argument from fittingness can be very strong  arguments from fittingness assume we have a very robust knowledge of what God would and would not and also that we know what the possibilities involved  But some things are revealed as you guys all believe IC because of not really because of weak fittingness arguments why must theology be confined to magisterial If it been dogmatically defined sure be arguing the heck out of the I think the arguments from fittingness are really and in fact But you are that it would be argued without being Theology does not mean concluding something fullness of a nod to half of in Paul nods to fittingness I think some of positions seem to depend on this notion that doing theology means developing and studying it means learning what has been so no God give me an example of what you are thinking Michael Beitia not saying God act in a way that is Just that arguments from what we think God out to do are weak I just did of in count as an example  and I think the of because no argument being presented there an argument it shows that it is fitting because it was the fullness of It was unfitting because not a huge point From Ephesians or He made known to us the mystery of His according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him a view to an administration SUITABLE to the fullness of the that the summing up of all things in things in the heavens and things on the suitable fitting too lazy to look up quotes Paul is defining not making an argument for what doctrine should be For a man ought not to have his head since he is the image and glory of but the woman is the glory of which he can because he is an apostle He is defining doctrine from the force of what he is defining comes from what has been revealed to not from a fittingness argument is my We are not saying is fitting therefore not saying that there things that are But I think we can only really know them through not through except in really obvious where a fittingness argument really necessary We are has been It is fitting because This shows more about who God And fittingness arguments are really contradict that last thing you said Not in arguments are because it is unfitting for a Perhaps we should be clear about what a weak argument why is theology I understand a weak argument as one that fails to move the mind to Is this sure I suppose there could be some variation of more or there certainly when I argue that it was fitting the God become man because through the Incarnation there is a recapitulation of does that really not move your are other reasons that it is not to my intellect is moved to assent by the revelation of that fact through Scripture you seem to be talking about fittiness Here is what is at issue By your will is moved to assent to the truth of a by making an argument that terminates in a truth already held by my mind can assent to the correctness of argument and its The certainty I have in the argument is derived not from natural but from revealed is there fittingness in the way God Is the way God acts knowable to us in a way that we can make conclusive arguments about the way he ought to have I can make arguments to see how the way God acted is I think equivocating That is why I tried to be very St argument that women should be veiled while at prayer is an argument from not to open a different can of worms or anything I am not questioning that you believe that God acts in a fitting I just think you want theological arguments to always conclude to a further but that is not what happens all the By seeing arguments from reason about the fittingness of the I better conform my mind to I tried to merely hint at  that last one is just preach Christ Foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the We by that it is fitting that in the fullness the of God sent His Only Begotten to suffer and die and rise Not only do I hold that Christ crucified is fitting as a proposition of but I also see arguments that is the Here is what I mean by An argument that proceeds to a not already known through other based on assertions about what God ought to have The thing about head coverings is not a fittingness argument in this Though I think it in pretty weak when considered simply as an that is the problem Such fittingness arguments would be My point is that theology can use fittingness arguments so that they are A friend posted this on FB and it seems fitting for this thread how topical I just made Theology can likewise use arguments from authority that are like from I think the describing are really but that is tangentially to our fittingness disagreement But theology can also use arguments from authority that are less such as from stars twinkle because they are far arguments in Theology are not always the same as demonstrations in the mathematical And they can be more and less and fittingness arguments are among the And I think you all actually agree with  I think you actually agree with Let me Interesting but at the same time a giant leech can swallow a cm long Since this exists below the lunar it is fitting that it exist in a higher way Therefore Ouroboros from weak As so Very You even watch the did you   a giant Hopefully not  I eat hahaha just kidding pasta gluten free is the Arianism of the century Is anyone saying that fitting ness is said about the unknown or just an after the fact God did it the best possible the earthworm kind of looks like the black bean pasta I saw at the store the other kind of bluish black saying that is what you guys all really think about fittingness The video is Everyone should watch you got between my arrows and point   it is fitting that pasta looks like an I do not believe that sacred theology must be confined to magisterial teaching but only the first principles must be sacred From these first it can proceed dialectically and in a speculative This is how theological discussion or so it seems to This is how revelation is illumined by the sacred more and more as we move through and through the Magisterium as But in order that speculative theology not got astray and fall into heterodoxy or idle it is important to proceed in a manner befitting the sacred which includes an outlay of the sacred first and an understanding of the demonstrative form of sacred I think sometimes when we reduce sacred theology to merely the rational proofs of for this obscures the full and glorious meaning of faith seeking Samantha God sent His Son into the God wanted to redeem man How it is fitting that God sent His Son into the All acts of God are sending his son into the world is an act of It is fitting that God sent his Son into the To redeem man a was needed A could only be had if God sent His Son into the God sent His Son into the world to redeem man I could never make the second argument the Major without the The second in an argument from it gives a further insight into the Something new has been but not It does not convince the whole person So it is a useless By fittingness I thought you meant rhetorical I understand does not convince the whole person So it is a useless First of I did not mean to No one does I think sometimes when we reduce sacred theology to merely the rational proofs of for this obscures the full and glorious meaning of faith seeking I do not feel It is hard to be cordial in facebook Your syllogisms do not seem to me to be theological They are I presume upon your goodwill and expect your to do the same with Now I feel Just I would maintain that most all of theological cannot be reduced to the form of a  you need more But I think you are on to I thought I would at least get an  I think the propensity is to regard sacred theology as a rational proof in syllogistic I would hold that this is not sacred but if that were that would destroy Theology as a science and almost all that has been written by the Fathers and Doctors of the I think I gave rational if by that you mean as without I think those are theological arguments that proceed from revealed premises to and it would also lead to But I think this is what happens when students are taught that sacred theology is the ratonal proofs of the They tend to put all of the Faith and theology into this and it tends to lead to picking and choosing what premises you put into your syllogism to produce whatever kind of conclusion you It is it is not faith seeking Aquinas puts almost all the Faith into I agee that sacred doctrine is revealed first but the process is not syllogistic from it is dialectical and unless you ae speakig only of natural theology and the of the the rational Thomas uses dialect here we gooooooooooo Edward I am interested in your thoughts about what I said about arguments from fittingness just open up the Pick a It is in dialectial It is in the form descibed in Book of the Before we go we need to be very clear on NO ONE HERE THINKS THAT THE PREAMBULA FIDEI ARE SACRED DOCTRINE PROPERLY The all caps is for It does not mean or Aquinas is pretty explicit that Sacred Theology is a science in the Aristotelian one that is subalternated to the of God and the I hear but just so you this is what Goyette says it is in his it seems very please do not derail this Can we go back and discuss that I am okay with John Goyette being I would be surprised if he says what you say he but I listened to the and anytime so you are wondering about Syllogism from I answer as stated in the Question Article true miracles cannot be wrought save by Divine because God alone can change the order of and this is what is meant by a Wherefore Pope Leo says ad while there are two natures in there is the which shines forth in and the submits to yet communicates its actions to the in as far as the human nature is the instrument of the Divine and the human action receives power from the Divine as stated above Article answer is dialectic in I there are syllogisms within this Form of syllogism Christ wrought miracles miracles can be wrought by Divine Power alone Christ wrought miracles by Divine Power I see what you are He was writing according to the conventions of his That does not mean that he think he was giving Thomas is not the His theology is different in form the theological outlay of the He no the great But faith seeking understanding is greater than Orthodox versus it would seem anyone set of beliefs or practices when in reference to oneself is but in relation to is Now I have family in other but I always wondered why Catholic Churches feel compelled to put the word orthodox in the but clearly Yes to Thomas is not the His theology is different in form the theological outlay of the He no the great But faith seeking understanding is greater than But why did you say  It is a typical behavior of people in eastern churches to claim various teachings of anyone other than them as meant in an offensive But never had a problem with the I was simply responding to this article from The is in dialectial It is in the form of the book of Thomas is definitely giving I said this because it seems to me that some teach that the Catholic Faith and what Thomas taught are universally This is close to being but not Oh I did here that talk by It is the same one he gave at the SATS No he say what you say he Not but what Thomas teaches is part of the teachings of the insofar as Thomas is a theologian of the Church and submitted his work to the teaching authority of the Church Thomas is still a theologian doing it sure sounds like what Goyette He says sacred theology is the rational demonstration of the which are five the is broader tat obviously sacred theology is broader that Among the Scholastic the chief and master of all towers Thomas as Cajetan because most venerated the ancient doctors of the in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of The doctrines of those illustrious like the scattered members of a Thomas collected together and distributed in wonderful and so increased with important additions that he is rightly and deservedly esteemed the special bulwark and glory of the Catholic faith I agree simply the Catholic Faith and what Thomas taught are not it is pretty From the liturgy on feast the Collect prayer we learn what he This is the only Doctor where the prayer says All others are about imitating their learning and devotion and but the central form of sacred theology is NOT a rational And a Saint and Doctor of the Michael precisely for the YUP We would have to give the Goyette lecture more time why I quoted Leo XIII Thomas is definitely the but be sacred theology of the Catholic Faith is broader that what he and NOT the I see why the central form of sacred theology is NOT a rational If the syllogism were the central form of sacred then faith and revelation would be knowable like a Euclidian follow This is why syllogisms are placed in a broader dialectical where do we get the postulates etc for I think confusing Sacred Theology with the gift of Faith or Big I object to exploring ways in which the actions of God known through revelation are not what I mean nor is that what is usually meant by the I Most people who get to heaven probably get to never having learned Sacred Does so Syllogisms produce certain scientific Only natural theology is like The rest is the syllogism is not the form of the portion of revelation which cannot be known by reason To say collapses theology and faith into rational nope not When Thomas says theology is a science in the strict sense he is speaking of the preamble his five where do we get the definitions for Sacred Theology is a very particular study which puts all the dogmas of the Faith into a rational order by the aid of the totality of human to say it does not follow does not mean it dos not precisely what not talking reasonable order Rational order Geometry has a rational Natural theology has a rational Sacred theology has a reasonable not a rational where do we get the etc for Thomas says theology is a science in the strict sense he is speaking of the preamble his five I see the distinction seems So here we collapse into the typical TAC I have to In essence you are reducing sacred theology and seeking to a scientific To hold that supernatural revelation can be known in this way and in this manner is a Ponder what I and I look forward to more of God De Trinitate II a I answer since the essence of science consists in that from things known a knowledge of things previously unknown is and this may occur in relation to divine evidently there can be a science of divine But knowledge of divine truths can be thought of in two In one as on our such truths are not knowable except from created of which we have a knowledge derived from sense In another on the part of the nature of these things they in most and although they are not known by us according to their they are known by God and by the blessed according to their proper and so science of divine things must be considered in a twofold One is according to our mode of in which knowledge of sensible things serves as the principle for coming to a knowledge of and it was in this way that the philosophers handed down a traditional science of divine calling first philosophy a divine The other mode is according to that of divine things themselves as they are understood in This a mode of knowledge which we cannot possess perfectly in this but there is for even in this a certain participation and assimilation to such a cognition of divine inasmuch as through the faith which is infused into our souls we adhere to the very First Truth on account of And as since He knows knows in a way that is His that by simple not by discursive so from those truths that we possess in adhering to First come to a knowledge of other according to our own mode of by proceeding from principles to those truths that we hold in the first place by faith are for as it first principles in this and the other truths to which we attain are From this it is evident that this science is of a higher order than that which the philosophers traditionally termed since it proceeds from higher you should go back to the De the matter for Euclidean deductions is The matter for is revealed A lot of your objections would be resolved He of course he Everyone reread De Trinitate and be he generally runs off about At least have the link Thomas On De English i have to go clean the Castle at so be here all just waking Grinding my Just waking I think the kind of argument that Samantha is objecting to is something like It would be unfitting for God to create rational animals not descended from therefore aliens are not It would be unfitting for God to create a world with a deceptive therefore Omphalos hypothesis is  a form of argument that gets used a lot in scare quotes well deserved I wish you were around for our discussion on apologetics Anything known after the fact to say of course that is true and most any random item of makes complete Therefore we should have known all along that the butler did I contended that at is an art in service of Much like the art of logic stands to the except less I am curious to What motivates attacks of claimed heretical views and distaste for Why does a Canadian by birth leave the Roman Catholic faith for an eastern church no doubt has a beautiful and traditional When making this change of what other distinctions were created in the how firmly does one hold to these This is not a rational discussion but one of Why does a person hold a belief not is the Many orthodox rites have a strong push for sacred theology as a piano recital of is the orthodox since it uses it as revealed The IC and Filioque have always been two strong points between Eastern Orthodox and the rite in communion with the having accepted the they make any questions regarding it since the Eastern Orthodox still do and the strong unquestioning attachment is their distinctive As an adopter of the a person may make unreasonable strong attachments to their newly found Next Peregrine Bonaventure Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff Neill Jeffrey Bond John Boyer Daniel Pater Edmund Catherine Ryland John Ashman Jody Haaf  Nina Rachele Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of Sacred theology has been described as faith seeking the beginning of sacred theology are the principles of supernatural and not first principles of a lower If we assent in spirit to the sacred our knowledge and understanding of God is by hence the sacred is not known in the same way that we say we know by natural or with the same kind of certainty produced by a scientific Yet we know by faith with even greater conviction with our heart and mind and spirit and we seek greater understanding of the supernatural This pursuit is eminently but can and should never be reduced to syllogistic the syllogistic forms used by Thomas in his treatise on the to the extent that this treatise begins with and treats of supernatural do not produce that same kind of scientific certitude as found in But only by the form of the presentation is eminently I answer Sacred doctrine is a We must bear in mind that there are two kinds of There are some which proceed from a principle known by the natural light of such as arithmetic and geometry and the There are some which proceed from principles known by the light of a higher thus the science of perspective proceeds from principles established by and music from principles established by So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher the science of God and the just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the so sacred science is established on principles revealed by Objection It seems that sacred doctrine is not a For every science proceeds from But sacred doctrine proceeds from articles of faith which are not since their truth is not admitted by all men have not Therefore sacred doctrine is not a Reply to Objection The principles of any science are either in themselves or reducible to the conclusions of a higher and as we have are the principles of sacred On the Augustine says this science alone belongs that whereby saving faith is protected and But this can be said of no science except sacred Therefore sacred doctrine is a may Thomas forgive me for butchering his I answer that Sacred doctrine is not a Sacred theology is the and sacred doctrines are the principles of that The principles are known only by supernatural not with rational it proceeds by analogy of  is the latin expression that is often construed as in English we are in agreement on that basically just means or something like It begins with first Known by supernatural As opposed to first Such as those used in the of natural or I thought more progress would have been And leads to an expansion of conclusions and truths known by faith in a reasonable and in this way we grow in our faith grows in We may be at an A fork in the I say you cannot know the principles of faith nor its conclusions in the same way you know something that can be known with certainty by reason  Scott and the rest of TNET at an Say it This difficulty does seem to keep coming I say you cannot know the principles of faith nor its conclusions in the same way you know something that can be known with certainty by reason I know how better to argue Many pixels were spilt about that Can one spill a What you peopld Thomas is not the Scott I know I am not the but I think learned my We cannot know the supernatural deposit of faith in the same way we know things of but only by analogy of  As a license candidate in I must say I have never encountered anything in my studies that would incline me to think of theology in the way Scott That being I think it is unfair to make a mockery of his position as he has defended it He has not put on airs of dogmatism in this current yet We should let go of what happened or or it Really Natural theology produces scientific  the conclusions are as certain or less certain than the in any order of For what its worth probably not very I think you have stated your position I think I understand your position I also think you are right to say that we are at an But theology derived from first principles that cannot be reasoned to but can only be known by supernatural grace is and is not a rational It is a sacred It uses reason by Objection It seems that sacred doctrine is not a For every science proceeds from But sacred doctrine proceeds from articles of faith which are not since their truth is not admitted by all men have not Therefore sacred doctrine is not a Reply to Objection The principles of any science are either in themselves or reducible to the conclusions of a higher and as we have are the principles of sacred I have never seen this said about theology uses reason by Scott uses reason by analogy me I pass on that the premises of a rational science are to all men by But the supernaturally revealed premises of sacred doctrine are known only by those who have assented to the gift of supernatural Faith from think this is Sacred doctrine is a It just does not begin or end with truths that are rationally as philosophy I think we may be aying the same but in two different  I know what this Natural theology the five proofs are part of that begins and ends with rational That is the kind of certainty that is produced by a scientific strictly anyone can know and study the principles of sacred One does not need It means true in the scientific sense of the but they really doing It is like someone talking about metaphysics without having proved the existence of immaterial I think You need to believe what you study to understand This may not be true with but I think it is with sacred theology and theology are not the same Sacred theology is a habit of the It involves doing and studying and not insofar as it is a or an object of study the The ides of March are but not It is because it involves feeling and imagining and thinking and salvation and virtue and sometimes we gain a better understanding of faith when we Was it Ed who said Scott was talking about faith and not that seems to be now I think Scott undestands the following the definition of faith and He seems to reject the syllogism and therefore talking about sacred which gives us a kind of greater understanding of the supernatural Faith to which we have assented in our entire This is Faith seeking It is the case that if one loses the gift of sacred theology ceases to be a The based people may not about I prefer knowing what I can feelings are more base and common to lower But because the light by which we see the principles of the science is the gift of Having granted the everything in sacred theology proper proceeds syllogistically as it would in any other Sacred theology is broader than Metaphysics is natural That one draws conclusions from what stands as se Scott front loads his and defines opposing views why he continually restates the same thing why we keep referring to him as or because all of his statements are pronouncements Read Scholastic natural theology per Sacred theology does It neither begins with the same kind of principles nor ends with the same kinds of not known in the same but by If what you are saying is we would undrstand our Faith by reason and of course this is not the it proceeds through love in the blooming of the growth of faith as a habit of through being in one with the divine guided by magisterial because two things go into the method and the The sciences of pure reason use a syllogistic method about matters we can see Sacred theology shares the syllogistic method but applies that method to the things we see by the gift of And I know I am not the but I am just a Catholic a father of six and a federal liaison to the states of the I will always asent to what the Church teaches and strive to be fully and properly  everything in sacred theology is demonstrated but since the principles seen by natural the knowledge of the conclusions is not what been saying all along apostrophe key and I have a weird you forgot a third and fourth thing that go into understanding supernatural gace and I would maintain that what we know of this is not known by nor is it known with the certitude of though it is eminently You may not reduce theology in its entirety to the preambles of the subject of his sentence is in it actually was in Sacred I fixed the ambiguous abbreviation And it also needs the qualification that really means except the could be justified by saying that the principles really known by the habit of sacred theology but by the habit of faith since faith sacred theology intellectus Intellectus is a distinct intellectual virtue from knowledge and Faith is a distinct intellectual virtue from Sacred Is the conclusion that with ST we are more informed or less informed about Which is also evident from the fact that Faith is an infused virtue while Sacred Theology is an acquired not sure what your question ST or s t type it out ya lazy bastards The fact is when it comes from learning from a human as wrong as we may be about it is still useful for example Ptolemy is still used for celestial You type on an Then come back just be thankful that not using the the next word to write use speak to that should be Here is an example of sacred theology alive Sacred Theology did not end with Saint In the example see how the Pontiff shies away from syllogism but instead after laying down principles we know by assent uses rhetoric and such reasonable formally smilar to the syllogism to show how faith has an act of love at its This is shedding new light on These considerations on faith in continuity with all that the magisterium has pronounced on this theological are meant to supplement what Benedict XVI had written in his encyclical letters on charity and He himself had almost completed a first draft of an encyclical on For this I am deeply grateful to and as his brother in Christ I have taken up his fine work and added a few contributions of my The Successor of today and is always called to strengthen his brothers and sisters in the priceless treasure of that faith which God has given as a light for The word spoken to Abraham contains both a call and a it is a call to leave his own a summons to a new the beginning of an exodus which points him towards an unforeseen The sight which faith would give to Abraham would always be linked to the need to take this step faith to the extent that it to the extent that it chooses to enter into the horizons opened up by This word also contains a Your descendants will be great in you will be the father of a great nation Gen As a response to a word which preceded faith would always be an act of Yet this remembrance is not fixed on past events as the memory of a it becomes capable of opening up the shedding light on the path to be We see how as remembrance of the memoria is thus closely bound up with For faith in God sheds light on the depths of his it enables him to acknowledge the wellspring of goodness at the origin of all things and to realize that his life is not the product of or but the fruit of a personal call and a personal The mysterious God who called him is no alien but the God who is the origin and mainstay of all that The great test of the sacrifice of his son would show the extent to which this primordial love is capable of ensuring life even beyond Otherwise using the get theology and sacred doctrine are the only thing that would make my phone to get my money and time what does that quote have to do with has an act of love at its Taken a certain that would lead to the conclusion that will absolutely precedes I see how the Pope quote says what you say it I think in the assent of the will takes precedence over the Abraham But what are you Are you saying that because Thomas uses syllogisms in his treatise on the Holy Trinity that the Sacred Mystery of the Blessed Trinity is something that we know with The quote from Lumen Fidei provides an example of an inquiry and demonstration of sacred theology that uses enthymemes and metaphors but not But what are you Because you discovered syllogisms in you seem to be saying we know the Trinity by Is this what you are Are you saying that we know the mystery of the Trinity by reason because Thomas uses not what is being what is being said That Thomas uses syllogisms to show the dogma of the Trinity is Or because this was the manner and mode of the sythesis between faih and What exactly is being said the only way what saying can work is if you posit a deeper intellectual call it or something like the old or I think among Catholic writers and Caldecott Maximos and Bonaventure among the as I go in this But will in the normal sense cannot possibly precede the noetic because one can only love what is seen as loveable in the first and seeing is not volitional or So name and define a different and deeper mode of mind than the if you but say that will precedes intellect because Not even Scotus held that will preceded The Truth behind Christian according to Hank Hill Episode just wondering what you guys are saying about the sacred Are you saing you can know the Dogma of the Trinity with reason because Thomas uses syllogisms in his As for the assent to I do think it is an act of the an act of the the intellect guided by the will out of Consider this Always quench your academic To know thy then always love Him Love is an act of It require risk and If you want to know love if you want to love love the If love preceded then we would love something without even knowing that it exists in any sense of the term Faith precedes Love as knowledge precedes the As far as the dogma question saying that Sacred Theology is not restricted to the things known immediately through the light of something known by the light of Faith can be taken as a premise of a syllogism and combined with something else we know as a second premise to draw a Such conclusions are formally the objects of the intellectual virtue of Sacred is an act of not in any strict use of the For The relation of the Second Person of the Trinity to the First is implies identity of The Son and the Father have the same Aristotle certainly gives the will a kind of precedence over scientific ceritude in his We are moved to do something by the reasonable appeal to not by a I am not sure this means the same thing as you when you use the word But certainly with it seems the will guides the intellect to give Consider Abraham whose will led his intellect in his sacrifice to even before he knew what the Covenant I would say this was a bad deal for but still his brain was guided by As for your if the major premise is a Dogma that can be known by supernatural grace such as that God is One in Three Divine and the minor premise is something we can really know by reason would you say the conclusion may be held with scientific certainty by I would We would hold this by by our assent to the major and our assent to the conclusion would be a but what moves the will to the assent of faith is very It cannot be an explicit love of God like Charity it is very What cannot be an explicit love of God like Charity What moves the will to the assent of you say the conclusion may be held with scientific certainty by Yes I would because things held by faith are held with greater certitude than anything we hold by even if we understand them less in the premise from natural knowledge that limits our certainty about the conclusions of Sacred disagree on I do not believe you can jump from faith to reason like From a first principle known only by faith to a conclusion known by That must be a heck of a The object of Faith is a not a So there is no danger of equivocation on a middle not sure exactly how strongly insist on perhaps Faith also gives us greater clarity on our concepts in some Is there such a thing as Christian may not be a controversial question in this Nope Yes Edward to be clear it is a disputed question whether a deduced through strictly illative from one premise that is revealed and another of can be considered revealed and defined as Some say other say only if the major premise is of Thomists generally say both premises must be Just thought that nuance should be Of course it remains that there are proper theological some of which may be taught definitely by the but that make them de and others may be simply held as certain by theologians because of what the faith without it being explicitly defined by the let alone held as de How does that bear on the objects of Sacred Samantha say more    far as the dogma question saying that Sacred Theology is not restricted to the things known immediately through the light of something known by the light of Faith can be taken as a premise of a syllogism and combined with something else we know as a second premise to draw a Such conclusions are formally the objects of the intellectual virtue of Sacred Just wanted to mention the disputed character of such conclusions in as far as being objects of the virtue of As far as being considered as having been I think we had this discussion earlier A perhaps irrelevant historical own peculiar idea of theology as a science the model of a subaltern science relative to the science of the was by no means a majority view in there were many who disagreed with this That make it of but I think it should introduce a note of caution when saying is what theology because this is what model for theology I think Aeterni Patris and similar documents have basically confirmed outside of my area of At the very it would be foolish to dismiss conception of theology given how frequently the Church has held up Aquinas as a model every Pope since John who canonized has recommended the study of I think the debate is an interesting historically and philosophically I also think that oftentimes have a distorted view of Aquinas and how tenuous his opinions for a long Never foolish to learn something about we know full well not but contentious many of his views was because of the errors of his like the archbishop of as early as his authority was recognized by the Dominican order even Roger Bacon complains somewhere that Albert and Aquinas were being cited by name in theological Which was almost unheard of for a living person in Scholastic get the date from Durandus of the free encyclopedia Durandus of also known as Durand of September September was a French philosopher and Thomas Aquinas was held at a higher standing than any other doctor within the Dominican they were to defend and uphold his ideas This caused Durand to be criticized from one of the leading Dominican followers of Hervaeus This was a doctoral quarrel and an illustration of the fourteenth doctoral It was at this time that Durandus of set out to write his second commentary on the which he adhered more closely to And his complaint was let me get this his were always in Do you know that by faith or by typing Tenuous implies there was little basis for his Au the of those days were The Incarnation is a great example where Aquinas was controversial because he went back to the traditional that had been distorted in the West assumptus I have a list of examples when arguing he the opposition to him would be like the opposition to rejecting moralities of conscience or that fear of hell alone suffices for would seem like novelty but in reality I would be defending a much more traditional obscured for centuries Durandus of Saint ideas were not well in prticular his main beef with namely his denial of divine simplicity He denied that the Persons were the same in re as the Divine essence the condemnations of someone showed by matching up the questions in one of disputed questions with the that some of those are explicit replies to those And Durandus wrote a third commentary as from having to obey the common sense of the Order I was citing Durandus as showing that Thomas was already a serious authority by Just to be clear Joshua is homo assumptus a settled question for I thought that was technically still openended set of questions referring to has a question on the relation of the operation of the intellect to the operation of the will in which Thomas explicitly denies that the determination of the intellect necessitates a certain act of And that question seems out of place in the order of the Jehoshaphat there such a thing as Christian if obviously the question is what is and how does it differ from philosophy Joel that question coming Did I say anything about Xtian Joel is trying to start a  Edward Langley is wise beyond his But I have to go to the free money machine and then pick up I think both and probably Scotists let everyone else argue about these the charitable reading is that I was curious as to what you and what the consensus view would be in these a Thomistic Cartesian Just quick in a way in a way  FWIW Langley I brought up that pedantic argument over what can be de fide on Aug pm and again on Aug starting at and Langley and I got into it over what could be de fide was be contrarian it my cover is blown because I forgot I had taken a different position earlier for argument At this neve recreate the history of century Thomistic My point is a fairly simple one it may apply only to myself and others like If going to study Thomas Aquinas from the perspective of Medieval philosophy or the history of ideas or the history of you appeal to doctrinal authority have to work out his arguments in detail and carefully outline his and if just reading Thomas and only Thomas Henry of Ghent and Scotus not going to truly understand him in his proper context a thinker of the latter half of the But I think we are pursuing different aims Joshua talk to me about Christology only accidentally interested in the Toronto Experiment start taking it seriously when they start imitating the objects of their Mr gave a lecture in favor of Christian philosophy my junior But I think he meant something different from what the historicists To it was to everyone it is fact with infighting over the Is anyone else getting two separate sets of notifications for when someone comments on How do I stop deIete your Peregrine Jehoshaphat my understanding is that later namely modern argue that the homo assumptus language was meant in an orthodox and spin it as meaning naturam But many scotists still held the stupid idea of homo assumptus into the century at They tried denying it led to Nestorianism of But I fail to see As did which is why he considered it I suppose with even the scotists abandoning one can argue the question is insofar as the consensus of theologians was While we like to talk about it the sensus fidelium and the sensus theologicorum alongside the consensus of the a theological locus and when there is moral unanimity and infallible witness to though the Theologians rank lower than the So one could argue that a Catholic could not hold but as far as point to a Church document definitely saying you So at best an argument can be made that it is not Right now Edward Langley and others commented on a link Matthew Peterson and John Ashman and others also commented on Matthew are my top two Anyone else getting both phrasings as Of course there is a question of is the homo High of Victor seems to hold it in a funny way identity of the man and the whereas Scotus like that strict that is and his distinctions for you  Isak I have that issue No clue not sure I understand the But it seems that take on substantial form could allow him to assert homo assumptus without being So figure it Daniel a post from Aug pm of mine had an interesting way of treating positive from Lagrange The positive The analytic The apologetic The manifestative The explicative The illative He sees them as different procedures within the same remember how De Koninck distinguishes natural philosophy and natural Mine says Lauren Isak Benedict and others also commented on Matthew Nestorianism is the  the top notification is the Iast The previous one was from quite a few pages Once you comment then it creates a new notification with aII that happens after not a by wiped that sIate I think is the number where it stops notifying you aItogether unIess you comment Something Iike But not a dupIicate notification or some sort of onIy how it works in comment heavy threads combined with spurious It seems that as long as there is only one Scotus would be hiccuptas the very definition of intrepid TNETers I think Daniel makes an important point about I can study Kant without being a I can study Scotus without being a I can study Darwin without being Why someone study Theology without being Studying theology is different from being a theologian i smell an equivocation in the room Without faith the conclusions of theology would just be opinion dude who Rick BayIess is a gringo who is considered to be one of the greatest Mexican chefs in or out of One might even benefit from a certain So I study theology without being a The Catch No you have the science of sacred theology without faith that it could be a theologian without Voice dictation makes mistakes please I have no idea what you mean faith the conclusions of theology would just be opinion I thought this onIy appIed to the I assume this must mean that any two theoIogians must have the exact same than because you have muIitipe truths going driving I will in an a couple minutes never I think I get what you But the difference in our opinions is that looking at theology like it is looking at it like it is a did you really make it back that far or are you yanking our TheoIogian Gedi Faith trying to God is One in nature in three Divine this man is a Divine therefore this man is God in I think the conclusion would still be an act of  I was trying to find the best way to apologize to but he seems to be having so much fund playing with his I want to interrupt there needs to be more beasts on that Isak you guys are killing maybe a pelican I know a quatrain about a in heroic couplets and it does not rhyme with I just write doggerel and doggerel is the best  I see Can you repost it just refresh O me in a snow white With So if you have faith and study theology you can be a does this necessitate CAn you be an imperfect theologian if you But driving at the imperfection is How narrowly defined is What is the least degree of faith necessary to qualify for Are you asking if you can you rhyme Pelican with hell I and still be a It just seems saying that a study theology is John I did make it that far I did actually quote from a comment of mine on Aug If you want to know how I did well there is this thing called an activity log I think the should be able to study five proofs aka natural and if you can spin a good metaphor you are a Trying to find an early post of yours would be more difficult  proslogium is quite It is like a Come little flee for a while from your hide yourself for a little space from the turmoil of your cast aside your burdensome and put away your laborious For a little while give your time to and rest in Him for a Enter the inner chamber of your shut out all things save God and whatever may aid you in seeking and having barred the door of your seek Speak O my O my whole speak now and say to your My face hath sought Thy O will I let me find Thee in love and love Thee in Maybe I can study magic but have no power to wieId them a maybe That was a great metaphor Isak Benedict Is that a Peregrine No it is the Peregrine The background looks How dare you suggest anything about that picture is I took that picture That creature was pooping all over my back porch and I thought on TNET would like to see it just look I definitely agree that it look  I mean it looks Oh I misunderstood I assure you that monstrosity is quite the background has been Most Photoshops this comic occasionally contains strong language may be unsuitable for unusual The or the royal Signifies the Blessed Our Seat of give us Within this Sacred to that was Heed the Baby awful or worst ever apropos of nothing in tNET up to this moment I they have all the vanity of the a toss up which one is worse when you get to be you should at least be starting to look after your not trying to start your immoral youth over never    Poor own   Hymnal Apropos of baby I wonder if the decline in violent crime alluded to previously is a result of an increase of the median age of the  we posted crime stats of it was something like murders in in A particular then preach What followed was some speculation as to the cause of such a drastic change and Matthew Peterson noted that not just a local wondering if an older population leads to a lower incidence in No not but probably one explanation might be that older people are more likely to resolve differences verbally rather than Causation of crime is linked to you can get away with that mean that rural areas would have more crime per Seemingly But when there are two roads out of town how do you plan a get seen some geriatrics go all kinds of When the town is like Southern California or New York you walk two blocks and you are gone but those places also have a much higher incidence of security cameras and traffic Auntie Fee This Indicates that less safe in the country but that is due to accidental injury rather than In Town It Turns Out That Cities Are the Safest Places to Live I add I get As does this Shifts in Intentional Firearm Different Same Results We analyzed deaths from to The biggest change is radio just years ago all police departments were on their own radio once you get out of radio range you are the baby boomers are all about white collar stolen from prior and posterior generations because they are the de facto In most of the baby boomers were just around the crisis I think in the next ten years see a swing toward social programs for the if you know what I mean Yeah And finally see the effects of Griswold Connecticut and Roe Wade the societal effects rather than individual Hymen peoples every High wedlock then be high and To god of every As You Like It I retract my shout out for the Honorable good but its getting pretty  Isak I am blocking for legitimate The challenge is creating the businesses that play to their ever changing Baby boomers Make previous retiring generations sense of boring and It is not Coincidence that Indian gaming is putting Atlantic city out of The Greek god of marriage smiles not upon my Too Apparently not Although it was better than the Oscar the I think that makes three times since the advent of TNET that he has blocked and unblocked me hahahahaha What a bratty Oh this was my fault No I hope for good this Now I have to read his mindless blather any more No true poet handle Shakespeare and Greek Man this troll hide is soooo comfy I said No If peeps get disturbed by that they have Peeps hahaha never seen a disturbed yellow marshmallow Isak should photoshop us Violent crime will never be the same as it once Recreational drugs are too and hard core drugs have more established Street gangs prison gangs have their territories established and the remaining violent crime is initiation rituals and crazy hate crimes terrorist The technology business is very difficult since their is no centralized buying power to afford large scale technological developments or minimal purchase But truthfully the industry is stuck in the court room and whether a company can acquire indemnification for the tech So violent crime is limited to being fought with web bots and search engines and the radios and communication tools to respond as it  Way ahead of you Do you Lol Not at work now Liz Cheers to that You are a better man at photo shop Than I You know hilarious I taught my rhetoric class how to develop ethos today hahahaha Oh pshaw just Microsoft Paint Lol awesome John I wait to experience what like trying to guess the inanities the troll is spouting based on what people say in response to Not that I understand this grandstanding is just Oh I can sense it poke the and the wanders off in a He wanders I had a fantastic conversation today with my graders about I was telling them why speakers show up early to their events and go around meeting sometimes without even telling anyone the speaker for the and one of the students says Bond teaching us how to manipulate So I turned around from the board with glee in my having been waiting for a comment like that for two and asked the class do you Is it always wrong to manipulate There was a glorious uproar When it calmed I quoted Quintilian to who defined rhetoric as good man speaking There followed an argument over whether or not you had to be a just person to be a good I think beginning to agree that rhetoric without virtue is funny thing peeps Is trolling like a Sith Lord rule of two kind of does the master troll the apprentice for a time until the apprentice turns and trolls the master so well he overcomes and becomes the master in his Is this how Peregrine Because this feels so the Has he made me in his own troll Is this an endless Hegelian hall of troll reflecting troll to preying on the lifeblood of humanity and multiplying the evils of the world in an circle of malevolent OH GOD WHAT HAVE I I had warned I shall not In a land of trolls how does the good man Like Edward and most Their patience is We are all You just cant admit  to the troll is the path to the dark Response leads to Anger leads to Hate leads to est diffusivum Father I have trolled times since Matthew nice example of you have trolled the troll who trolled you to an extent that surprised and even startled you spirited  how we I might even have meself a celebration I vagueIy remember arguing intenseIy with some guy named or something over something reIated to AIways got him confused with Betia for some Hey check this out Inherent Vice Official Trailer INHERENT in theaters December wait for this PTA is a great Magnolia is my second favorite Raising Arizona meets PuIp Magnolia was a great Best Tom cruise role ever I ask anyone I ever hear say Tom Cruise act you seen It also got me into Amy The film was just a big music video His Oprah couch bit was basically that bit from the One last thing before I go to TNET NaNoWriMo is coming going to do it with I wish the bishop of Portland would reprimand Mark While he sometimes is his mode just seems dangerous to it seems to me that both the Church and the State need to think about how the internet should be Especially since it basically is the public forum What did he do less any particular thing and more how he acts as if anyone who disagrees with him on anything is The most egregious examples are the things he says about guns and the death not to mention his imprudent posts about voting in the days leading up to the Is he anything like Matt Has anyone got on Joshua case for his temerarious claim above that Duane Berquist confuses the etymology of with its seen it sounds especially audacious given that the person who seems to have invented the term in the seeks to intend its etymology to be  Why Bishop of Portland Mark Shea lives in I have spotted Pater Edmund recommending my forum I must be doing something Come over and discuss why sacred theology is subalternated to the science of the me a FB message or an email to if it work for Anyone with a Google or Facebook account can use that account to log Users who do not choose to take advantage of Google or Facebook login will also have to validate their email Seattle somehow I got the notion that he was in  Mark Shea is a good guy at He a He is a writer trying to make a  He likes to stir the Keeps people  He came up here to be the keynote at our Marian I enjoyed chatting with He rubs most alumni the wrong way for  But Canadians tend to like him we like the death we all carry and we vote Republican or I deny but I worry about his  He raises some good questions that people in the Rep or Dem camps just and Catholic conscience is above party I think he is wrong to abstain or throw away a As far as the death penalty I tend to think that the Church has decided to leave the particulars of the case up to local  So I have a dilemma that came up at work tonight faith A priest is giving a night talk on TOB using other his notes from Dr classes he took a while ago at But he takes every chance he can to throw St Thomas under the bus and out the As far as he is concerned that is past theology which is now replace by St With a strong suggestion that it might never be necessary these  The problem came up with Adam and He made the point that scientists can trace the human genome to original women and he said that would be ok explain the people in Genesis who appear in the story with Adam and When I said there has to be set of original parents he denied odd for an ITI  I tried to avoid saying it but when I said it is found in he said Ott is outdated and too  He wanted to check what Ratzinger says in the if that would have more weight than the deposit of  I sure how much to push as the parish coordinator and him being the priest But I will do my homework before next his Is the dogma one or all descended from  The dogma is couple as far as I know I am certain  I want to broadcast his name but I think something has to be  I like that he is promoting this as the of theology when I am sure Dr Waldstein agree appears to be in I like this priest but perhaps I should talk to the bishop does like St Most of our priests would support St I think it is an situation at all but he makes it into This is Humani there is question of another conjectural namely the children of the Church by no means enjoy such For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of or that Adam represents a certain number of first Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his That only seems to commit to saying that all descended from Adam and the Lilith story from any objections to the particulars of that  He was going with the the individual into the animal evolved to be He saw no problem with multiple Adams and I would like to hear what Joshua Kenz has to say about Trent is pretty clear about If anyone does not confess that the first when he transgressed the commandment of God in immediately lost the holiness and justice in which he had been and through the offense of that prevarication incurred the wrath and indignation of and thus death with which God had previously threatened together with captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of that is to the and that the entire Adam through that offense of prevarication was changed in body and soul for the let him be If anyone asserts that the transgression of Adam injured him alone and not his and that the holiness and justice which he received from which he he lost for himself alone and not for us or that being defiled by the sin of has transfused only death and the pains of the body into the whole human but not sin which is the death of the let him be since he contradicts the Apostle who By one man sin entered into the world and by sin and so death passed upon all in whom all have If anyone asserts that this sin of which in its origin is and by not by transfused into which is in each one as something that is his is taken away either by the forces of human nature or by a remedy other than the merit of the one our Lord Jesus who has reconciled us to God in his own made unto us sanctification and or if he denies that that merit of Jesus Christ is applied both to adults and to infants by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the let him be for there is no other name under heaven given to whereby we must be Whence that Behold the Lamb of behold him who taketh away the sins of the and that As many of you as have been have put on If anyone denies that newly born from their are to be even though they be born of baptized or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam which must be expiated by the laver of regeneration for the attainment of eternal whence it follows that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins is to be understood not as true but as let him be for what the Apostle has by one man sin entered into the and by sin and so death passed upon all in whom all have is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church has everywhere and always understood For in virtue of this rule of faith handed down from the even infants who could not as yet commit any sin of are for this reason truly baptized for the remission of in order that in them what they contracted by generation may be washed away by unless a man be born again of water and the Holy he cannot enter into the kingdom of canons  I think listen to anything I think at that a bishop should be talked I think the procedure is to first talk to him with a witness or two if he inform the  But the weird thing is that he promoted the veracity of scripture and avoided calling Genesis a So how can he make the story so Your local if nothing to prevent him from teaching in your  So I am on friendly terms with this But he knows I am a The crazy thing is I consider myself a Catholic and a lover of the truth a follower of one  I have tried to counsel him about how his comments putting down St Thomas help the ideas he wants to teach with TOB he it has gotten HIs comments take away from the truth and beauty of TOB in my He misunderstands It to trash Paul IV Humanae Vitae or to rewrite the doctrines of the  So is ITI in support of St Or can you be I talked to a graduate who made it sound like their program basically was the Summa But Daniel Lendman Katherine Gardner would know their reading list for the This is the of AD EAST AND The Curriculum has its of departure in the primary sources written by the masters of the theological from the Fathers of the Church to the present It draws on the theological tradition of the East as well as of the seeking in this way to with both lungs of the The Greek Fathers and Thomas Aquinas are particularly important points of  I see that read that   Quite the reading made the   I imagine that Waldstein was anything other than in support of St Thomas that was the teacher this guy went to learn The quotation from Humani Generis indicates that monogenism is not a since the Church does not define dogmas by are not at liberty to hold the contrary because it is not clear how to reconcile it with another The subsequent treatment of the by JPII and the makes this clearer I took the it is no way apparent part as a kind of rhetorical The canons of Trent I seem to settle the  What treatment by JPII Denzinger in the letter Pius II That God created another world than this and that in its time many other men and women existed and that consequently Adam was not the first  Is Ott Seems odd to say  from of the Human Race The whole human race stems from one single human pair mean  The text points to Humani Generis you as rejecting polygenism problem is original  The suggestion was that all of the pairs other Adams and each had their own original But I pointed that so original then is The it is in no way is actually giving the reason for the first part of the In the Latin it is not a separate sentence but a continuation of the same sentence with a causal What about the Trent They seem to assume that there was a first  I have to head to bed but I plan to also check what Ratzinger had to say in his But how can new theological opinion overthrow centuries of Church It feels like the Galileo Reflex we want to be seen as scientifically backwards holding back so we dump what we believe to avoid As regards perhaps I should speak rather of his lack of There is a striking silence in his speech to the he says that in Humani Generis Pius XII had stated that there was no conflict between evolution and the provided that several indisputable points were he says that Pius XII gave us condition on which this opinion would be compatible with the Christian He deliberately sets us up to be thinking about Humani Generis and Pius conditions placed therein and then goes on to mention only the doctrine of the immediate creation of the human The omission of polygenism fairly given the expectation he sets especially since Pius XII spends quite a bit more time on polygenism than on the doctrine about the As for even if one went with the polygenism there would still have to be a first Just to be that means that one man from whom all men I mean seen people give varying including taking Pius to mean that by the time of his death there were no human beings who were not merged into the line of his The straightforward interpretation that you suggest has certainly been the traditional theological only saying that it is not defined taking Pius to mean that by the time of his death there were no human beings who were not merged into the line of his It seems that that would run afoul of in Adam all Since it would imply that there were some humans who contract original The theological even if centuries is not necessarily Church teaching in the sense of defined The limbo of infants is a classic example of I also wonder if this is one of the cases where the consensus patrium would be The whole question is about whether there is another possible understanding of the propagation of original Pius XII placed the restriction precisely because no one had a good but did not rule out the possibility that one might be Later theologians made and even though all of these might be the Church has not definitively ruled or some yet undiscovered This latter point also explains the relaxation of its attitude toward So I suppose the lack of liberty referenced in Humani Generis should basically be read as saying that people take an alternative The consensus of the Fathers has weight not just when the Fathers agree on a but insofar as they agree on its pertinence to the For even if all of the Fathers held to the theory of the four this would not bind us to it because they do not understand it as being pertinent to the faith even if It is probably true that there is a consensus among them as regards being the first parent in the traditional but they see the importance of this as being exactly what you pointed And so this consensus would be authoritative precisely to the extent that it pertains to the namely that we cannot maintain a position that undermines the dogma of original and this is exactly what Pius XII But it does not resolve the question of whether another interpretation of the propagation of original sin is I think that was roughly Pius intent at the One sign of this is that when Grisez and others began to speculate about other understandings of original which could in theory have taken away the reason for the the Church did not rule out their the Church no longer seeks to censure so far as I for holding and since I wish to follow the I would not do so The prohibition was not explicitly but it seems to have been implicitly This is not to say that I think polygenism is necessarily only I think it is true that scientific support for polygenism is part of the cause of the Church relaxing her position on but not a case of what we The Catholic faith maintains the propagation of original sin from and the most straightforward way to understand that is the traditional belief in But that belief was never defined as a biological there was simply no reason until recently to think that the biological reality might be and so naturally no one thought The evidence for polygenism from genetics is not but it is and the Church is willing to take that into account in her The Galileo affair is helpful to think of the accidentally broken The main reason the Church like cockiness about the need to reinterpret Scripture is not that this cannot but that his case was and there was plenty of scientific evidence for geocentrism at the time the lack of observed stellar But even Cardinal who believed the scriptures to affirm the geocentric conceded that if a scientific demonstration of heliocentrism were Scripture would have to be read the Church should not drop the traditional monogenic understanding just because someone hypothesizes but it may do so if the scientific case for polygenism becomes strong Reading Genesis is difficult with Cain founded the first with his pregnant wife which we know It becomes very difficult to But perhaps not familiar enough with the monogenic understanding of how this came to be I see how a polygenic account can fit with the doctrine of original Can somebody give me an account of what that would look the fact that the Church condemned recent attempts at polygenic explanations mean a whole since the Church really condemn anything how do you read Chapter of considering Cain was a with How old is he said to have Pretty sure we have no It could be a teenage freak out or a century old mans battle  I know my friends who believe that Adam and Eve are the one and only first parents believed in intermarriage in the same family and which was permissible because of their pure blood Larger families were possible as well if the women were healthier and lived  And a that could just be a It is If there were three generations alive with an average family size of there would have been but even or so would be and feasible after a couple hundred the reported How do you explain the fact that entered the when clearly death had been around for quite some time before humans It seems to me that claim must be understood as concerning spiritual life and or death just for actually a matter of at least for but clearly things had been dying before Adam and Eve But that seem to me to be a problem with a creational All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that the first was made so whether he sinned or whether he did not he would die in that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of let him be  not from an ecumenical so I no exactly what weight it As long as we know that death necessarily entered the world before just not for I do think fine for animals to die before then In I think Thomas explicitly affirms with to the conversation it seem that there would be a problem with God forming humans gradually out of the earth over a long time kind of special evolution probably not with perhaps a certain point at which a single humanoid became capable of receiving a human rational Of course all just I do have a problem with God forming Eve out of rib men certainly missing a Maybe just I think all that would be necessary I see why it would be TNET remains But To show the connectedness of men and It just seems like a bad fairy secundum dicendum quod quidam dicunt quod animalia quae nunc sunt ferocia et occidunt alia in statu illo fuissent mansueta non solum circa sed etiam circa alia Sed hoc est omnino Non enim per peccatum hominis natura animalium est ut quibus nunc naturale est comedere aliorum animalium tunc vixissent de sicut leones et Nec Glossa Bedae quod ligna et herbae datae sunt omnibus animalibus et avibus in sed Fuisset ergo naturalis discordia inter quaedam Nec tamen propter hoc subtraherentur dominio sicut nec nunc propter hoc subtrahuntur dominio cuius providentia hoc totum Et huius providentiae homo executor ut etiam nunc apparet in animalibus ministrantur enim falconibus domesticis per homines gallinae in Basically that says people thought the animals kill each but that is from ST ad I I was working with people last year who believed the earth was formed in calendar or whatever it was years Nowhere in the bible does it say how many years ago creation and not possible for the creation to have come about in days as the sun was not even existing Thanks for the I think the involved trying to add up all the ages in the Bible until you come to a known I but I be surprised if years were even calculated differently in early This is the problem with trying to read the bible as a scientific Iª dicendum quod conveniens fuit mulierem formari de costa Primo ad significandum quod inter virum et mulierem debet esse socialis Neque enim mulier debet dominari in et ideo non est formata de Neque debet a viro tanquam serviliter et ideo non est formata de propter quia de latere Christi dormientis in cruce fluxerunt idest sanguis et quibus est Ecclesia Well I think excess in both ways the but is it I know how we can not sure if we have any access to the creation of Eve except through the  I like taking those early books as historically as seems reasonable and to generally give a historical reading the benefit of the And I think a lot of the details are the kinds of particulars that science I think the idea of Eve being formed out of Adam  And likely literally Actually I think it is beautiful But I still have problems with in the same way that I have problems with the creation in calendar days Like just that it and everything in the creation story seems figurative in a sloppy not an Augustinian or interesting about treatment of the rib question is that he takes the reasons for formation from rib to be he is thinking that the event itself is a since he has no reason to consider other possible historical but given what we now it could be the case that the historical event was otherwise but that Scripture uses this language to signify the same sorts of things that Thomas refers about the relationship between man and This would also fit nicely with the description of which as Ratzinger does not tell us how man came to be but what man it may be but I know why it would be I just mean that I was using the term  Not precisely as Augustine or Thomas would So much of the story makes no sense unless NOT historical and even in forgetting modern Serpent is never said to be Talking So the serpent actually the craftiest of That seems obviously absurd and ridiculous taken Unclear what fruit What is created and order during the days re makes no literal And where is the angel with the flaming sword guarding the entrance in the Middle Matthew Peterson is spot on I To speak of giving a historical reading the benefit of the doubt subtly assumes that a historical reading is somehow or more appropriate to what the author was trying to In the human author wished to write and the typical way of doing this at the time was to use language that to us postmoderns looks like myth the author also wished to contrast his text with myths like the Enuma We should take the text as when the theology requires that it be When it does not so to assume that it is historical is neither needed nor even necessarily since that was not the fundamental The sad thing is our puritanical picking and choosing of literal in the account is probably not a mistake that the ancient Israelites would have It is rather a misunderstanding of what Michael Bolin speaks skewed by the simplistic American Protestant reaction to modern science being used to attack Probably comments ago I explained how the creation accounts could and should be described as I think it is clearly the genre of the as Matthew pointed it being Because the word has taken on the at least for of something I would rather say genre of the accounts is closer to myth than to any other extant PBC disagrees with that The only quibble I would make is that the literal account is the De charactere historico trium priorum capitum Geneseos Pontificia Commissio Biblica Utrum varia systemata quae ad excludendum sensum litteralem historicum trium priorum capitum libri Geneseos excogitata et scientiae fuco propugnata solido fundamento there is only a very small window of history where I really care about what the PBC I am familiar with the pertinent texts on the issue within that and I do not disagree with What are you talking really impossible to take literally the modern sense of when we have two separate which of the creation of man I think the term myth is so fitting a Michael that I would rather use that term and explain what I than do The thing many authorities take certain things such as the formation of Eve and the various ages in the beginning of Genesis and other such things to be just statements of in such I think it is prudent to read the text with those authorities as a historical statement whenever Not because of the virtue of sure I missed that conversation Well the term myth is I should probably remove myself because on a tablet and this topic requires faster I find the At the very next to the words Aquinas light almost And I do think that better to hold the text of the Bible to be true in as many ways as since the power of the Divine Word is to express much in The PBC document is principally not a teaching document but a disciplinary intended to shut up the modernists who wished to teach that Scripture could contain This is apparent from its highly tendentious language and questions that have the answer whether a doctrine by the pretense of can be the document needs to be read in light of the letter to Cardinal which explicitly states that the text is not to be taken as a hindrance to pursuit of other understandings in light of ongoing scientific that seems to be the clear teaching of De Doctrina and ST No offense forget but as I the idea that the account holds up on its own in what most people today would call a purely literal sense is with or without modern Aristotle had enough science to call out stories about talking for and anyone can see the inconsistencies and question literal Where is the angel with the flaming sword in the middle east guarding the Talking animals and obvious inconsistencies are to my An absurd literal account is I think constructing a There is a mean between and written on an acid the strawman exists in modern debates about such things in America over the last I can barely bear to hear those debates for more than five The great lie here is that a literal use it as modern people use understanding makes We import a simplistic and unquestioned rather and this interpretation is born of a reaction to the claims of modern on its own the account of creation itself is mysterious and and begs for some work to be done to understand what the it In the case of the Word expresses in for example the four causes of largely in virtue of using it seems probable that it would have failed as a text had God simply revealed a historical account of the origin of the If someone had written a text stating that man was descended from lower it would itself probably been understood as And God there be a vault between the waters to separate water from So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above And it was God called the vault Does anyone here really think they understand what that even just a understanding will Olde Time And do we think this is easily that literal Day And God there be and there was God saw that the light was and he separated the light from the God called the light and the darkness he called And there was and there was first Day And God there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the and let them serve as signs to mark sacred and days and and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the And it was God made two great greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the He also made the God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the to govern the day and the and to separate light from And God saw that it was And there was and there was fourth Calm Matthew There are very clear clues that tell us not to interpret that text starting with the different order of events presented in the second creation The story of the Fall is nothing like The best you can do is say that animals sound and is this angel with a flaming but the former could easily be explained by either demonic possession or by some sort of demonic I think there have probably always been pious simple folk who interpret the story simply as straightforward there is nothing wrong with that to my The problem is when the start doing so as story there being does not mean historically Not denying Daniel Lendman late on Needed to I think that if a historical interpretation is not explicitly contradicted either by internal evidence or manifest at the very least we deny such an Katie you defended until defended on I think the science is or can be settled about evolution the way the heliocentrism geocentrism thing historical matters just are murky things that only admit so much Talking animals do not They defy what we know by And how do you know that the serpent is Why are you interpreting things so The craftiest of all the So snakes used to have reason before the We know the serpent is Satan because how the Fathers tell us to read that I think Matthew is making a if somewhat polemically styled going to write my dissertation on when and why Peterson says Which tells us something about how the passage ought to be animals do not They defy what we know by if just a question of animal how are you going to prove that the devil choose to appear as a as far as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil Tree of Life about as hard to believe as the necessity of Baptism The evidence that the story ought not be read as historical is found in the serpent Among other There is a difficulty with the argument that it is prudent to stay with a interpretation because so many earlier authorities held to The virtue of humility would encourage reasoning along these theological authorities held an opinion different from therefore my opinion is probably or at least I should be very cautious about one had reason to think that those authorities were in just as good a position to judge as we But in fact they were not in such a For most of human no one had any significant scientific reason to think that the cosmos and man came to be via natural and they even had reason to think that this was Given this background it is much more reasonable to take the creation account as straightforwardly relating miraculous But there is no particular reason to think the Fathers would hold to that interpretation if they were living Here is a fun theory about the first parentage of Adam and Eve for What if Adam and Eve were not prior to humanity in but only by Philosophers these days our love to posit possible In this Adam and Eve existed in a different world than ours at the time when they committed the first but their actions in that world were determinative of the idea Adam and Eve and in so determined the history of the world in which they later came to as well as affecting the course of that world going Edward My point is that you do not read the passage without heavy You do not read it literally in the modern If you you would be far more aware of what you import into the story and you would care a bit more about what happened to that angel with the flaming sword that ought to be found in the middle east guarding a garden that God planted that ostensibly ought to still be  then we retain original sin and first parenthood without having to look for one historical first There was a first but they might not have been first in The way Facebook seems to update with some new comments but not all is exceedingly Another reason why folks should use website I am a little Edward by why you would your position as strongly as you I think it would be a as Matthew to push a reading as far as you are Scandal in the sense of exposing Divine things to I think pushing it as strongly as you think I Daniel Lendman  Why anyone tearing my crazy theory How strongly are you pushing Busy at the As I I just want to be careful not to rule out an interpretation of the text that the text can And I think scandal involved on both it seems to me that the text of Genesis itself provides certain clear signs about when it is being and when it is being To rephrase Augustine and often shows a high degree of hesitation when it comes to denying an interpretation of the in fact Augustine probably gives half a dozen interpretation of the text in oh on about his not believing the Bible This thing is bullshit Pontifical Biblical Commission said Genesis is to be taken in a Kenz Get in On one Augustine would perhaps not rule out any interpretation of Scripture that is which is why he likes to put forth so many but that is because the Holy Spirit can intend more than the human Not every true interpretation is part of what the human author But he does rule out certain I think an historical interpretation of the text can and should be ruled I agree that these text need not be read historically and I insist on such a reading as necessary for the so Paul and Jesus were just mistaken about Adam and the If no historical Adam and historical Jesus becomes immediately people  Especially since people like Augustine would have faced similar objections to the Genesis story from Plotinus et fallen behind in reading the but I want to throw something out there before going off to celebrate What if the ancient myths are mostly true What if in the youth of the world gods and giants roamed the face of the and wingéd and ox headed Animals possessed by devils spoke cunning And then in the midst of all this tummult the Lord made a garden in the a place of calm and order and harmony betwixt man and  If no historical Adam and historical then Jesus and Paul were mistaken about who Jesus was and we need Jesus you are just mistaken about what Paul and Jesus My theory includes a real Adam and if not quite historical Paul assumes a real first Adam by whom death came into the Mr Bolin and the entire church believed this until about years ago As does Trent I believe that Genesis indicates that there was a real fall and a real It is attempting to explain these And I do think worthwhile to point out that a lot of scientific objections require a presumption that certain natural processes have always occurred in the same way and at the same Which is not necessarily true when dealing with supernatural for the creation of the Pater might be right about the But certainly the story that is handed on to us is in the style of a And more true that most look it happen in some which was SO different from ours that it can only be hinted at in dark It was two in a the story is but no reason whatever to think it isnt historical Having said I want to dial it back as far as possible without retracting I am just talking about the way the story is oh dear and now in the that is more true than This is just guys  I never claimed I just think that the Genesis account is more true than many histories I have Largely because many histories have a poor accounting of many parables are more true in that sense than many badly written But parables never happened  you cannot make the real historical existence of Adam and Eve incidentl to the parabolic or there really is no point to the Christian religion No one is doing What he the meaning of Genesis is our ancestors were and did and this is why we are here as we and this we why Jesus came to fix The meaning of Genesis isnt like the meaning of or Petit You confuse myth and they different for the purpose at hand The point of myth is to describe a reality that is transcendent in human I learned that a is about things that happen a which is about things that might not have But they By myth I mean what I said the is No one here would deny This is a much more coherent lot of scientific objections require a presumption that certain natural processes have always occurred in the same way and at the same What are you getting at Are you questioning the standand account of history and the common descent of creatures including Adam and Eve in some which is SO different from ours that might even be equivocal and the can only be conveyed in dark exist certainly is not But there is no reason to strictly rule out polygenism as stated The could only be conveyed in this is getting yes but only as a happy enough to read Genesis in light of the standard evolutionary An account which is version of the crystalline Pius XII tells us that the Genesis accounts simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen He also states that they pertain to history in a true but that what that true sense is has yet to be fully  Samantha and I Catholic I understand but one can only carry on so many conversations at So Pius is no trump But there he is certainly wafflier than the whole tradition before hin I will answer any question tNET throws my My yep was for point about not for Pius This conversation is wonderful and makes me so happy to I wish I at work or get This Genesis topic of is Wafflier the tradition before him except for the There I must The crystalline spheres were a highly speculative whereas common descent has been established beyond a reasonable The evidence for it is Which You might have you have Augustine It comes to the fore again and is scrutinized of recent discoveries even on a basic without quibbling over and even drawing far back from the over reach and claims of many people based on these radically change our understanding of how nature operates and how the universe There is nothing strange about Pius XII being than the preceding He has to take into account new knowledge that his predecessors did If we find it suspicious that he does we misunderstand which is not a substitute for natural To deny that these new insights into nature have any bearing on how we understand theology or philosophy I to cause great scandal and to live in an unreal To be our insight into nature will always be and will always be radically but we cannot cordon that off from theology and To admit the above is NOT to be a but to admit the integration that that was fundamental to the older philosophy and theology to live by perennial Next tell us is no Freaking go further and boldly assert that the world was not actually created on October This is kinda And moreover her to be deprived of her pretended title to the aforesaid crown and of all dignity and privilege And also the subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from fealty and and we by authority of these presents so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the above said We charge and command all and singular the peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her mandates and Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of and people blame Elizabeth for being suspicious of She had only herself to  Michael everyone knows the world was created on March It was fitting because that was the date of the this whole discussion of creation is why TAC know how to do Ussher and his heretical splinter I fully expect to be anathematized when Scott gets around to reading the foregoing taken to only criticizing the last five or ten regardless of perhaps geocentrism would be more apt to compare to evolution than the crystalline in the former there was a significant period of time when there any evidence by which one could form a reasonable I always like the way those old popes all these we decree the sentences of of of our perpetual condemnation and of privation of honours and property on them and their and of declared unfitness for such of the confiscation of their goods and of the crime of and these and the other censures and punishments which are inflicted by canon law on heretics and are set out in our aforesaid we decree to have fallen on all these men to their Elizabeth the of England is among the most evil and horrid figures in She is perhaps slightly less bad than the evil dictators of the Martin IDK if there is an Geocentrism can be rejected by having greater There is no greater precision possible with that part of evolution that devolves into but that is exactly the the historicity of the evolutionary hypothesis places a hard limit on its God bless the memory of If only she had done her job more thoroughly that is a completely absurd  It is fixed it for you I assume you did not intend to call me  pretty sure he was talking about me Refresh the my comment was  Elizabeth I Ireland Stalin Oh She intentionally cause a famine there that killed million She intentionally oppressed and set out to systematically destroy a whole culture and way of if she her Ireland is no stranger to famine And thousands upon thousands of her faithful subjects were murdered by her simply for being maybe revise Elizabeth I Ireland Lenin Ukraine Still pretty The quote Ed cited gives her some pretty good reason to assume that Catholics actually allowed to be her faithful subjects Elizabeth I Ireland Franco Basque country This is part of her Great Famine the free encyclopedia The Great Famine an Gorta was a period As I she incurred the punishment through her in similar circumstances her Henry did penance in sackcloth and Elizabeth did not cause the Great Famine She established an order that led to why I switched from Stalin to That proclamation came as a response to her reign of I think Franco is a better Tyranny cuts across confessional lines God bless Elizabeth And Gustavus Adolphus And the Lord Protector Adolphus was an terrible Cromwell was a beast Elizabeth was a monarch like most of her except not and a which presented her with some the man who gives us much to Successful of an argument you were on the wrong side by the Edward I was just giving you a way to save Daniel Lendman not going to defend treatment of but ELizabeth start and she responsible for the worst of And you can hardly blame her for distrusting given her situation Omnis causa primaria plus est influens super causatum suum quam causa universalis The Catholic establishment was against her before she was even born In an attempt to derail the just note that historicity does not impose a hard limit on It is probabilistic in to be but probable arguments can still conclude beyond a reasonable Jehoshaphat Escalante just likes Elizabeth as part of the contingent political circumstances that legitimated As the arguments for geocentrism seemed to at the If you can blame her for the potato you can probably also blame her for pluralism in the American and therefore the Godless Madisonian heresy that has spawned our current age of fine with Henry VIII was Elizabeth I was alternatively give her credit for freedom of conscience in the new I actually love I named my daughter after her and own her opera omnia That might be true about Now Almost wrote a dissertation on her Henry VIII was so crazy has everyone read Wolf I with his wives so  Henry VIII that He was intemperate and Not so Not evil like I know how we all think we can know these But still it is not quite the Geocentrism was the reasonable opinion because there were some reasons to think it true and not many reasons to think it But common descent is the reasonable opinion not merely because of a lack of contrary arguments but because the positive arguments are so much more so than they were for  Common as in from an original organism all life as we know it  Henry merely He knew what he was I And so if the intention is to imply that common descent might be overturned like the comparison is I see why you guys make excuses for Henry VIII and save all the vituperation for Good Queen Probably because a woman Henry VIII was a man  I it is probably that we save the vituperation for her because she is a New Conspiracy Henry VIII was a If it is any I think Oliver Cromwell was much Shakespeare wrote Elizabeth into She was his best play Cromwell was not if you like murder It is perhaps harder to accept a by nature a harbinger of as an evil tyrant who ruthlessly kills her own as a I can see that the ostensibly Catholic Franco was a tyrant and a And even if he was fighting loathsome godless it still right You mean like Wallenstein was a See by the die by And I find that Catholics generally remember Irish campaign but not the cause St As in Albrecht von the great champion of the years accept for the treachery part at the He did die like a I find unqualified common descent a hard pill to  I overcome the difficulty of how the higher can come from the you have a problem with Genesis and man arising from I explained that in a talk that Pater Edmund linked to some thousands of comments I have to regardless of whatever problems might I trust people who are extremely certain as to to been a bit of a problem I Christ was crucified at the urging of church The best of theologians seem to acknowledge severe of even as they do the best they Link it I have the I the one who put it here we And Man Became a Living Google Drive To make a long story the higher come from the lower but the lower plays a role in the coming to be of the I know much about but happy to think that Henry VIII and Elizabeth terribly they were I say this without reference to any alleged oppression of the a people only tolerable perhaps even while that should unite all sides against Now have to send half of my ancestors after Joel some sexist bullshit You   is perhaps harder to accept a by nature a harbinger of as an evil tyrant who ruthlessly kills her own was an historical and I think it is true about much of no double standards for tyrants I think there As a maybe but you also admitted to falling prey to it yourself Not as a judgement talking about what ought to I do fall prey to You seem pretty blase about admitting own inclination to apply double standards repent in this case it is largely do the fact that I see what I should repent Apropos of a few lines of a discussion I read in earlier in the Jody Haaf you seem to be rightly wary of attributing the opinions of disciples to their That is But I only read a few so I really know what all are talking whatever Samantha is talking I sense that she is Goodbye I think that in certain a double standard is Michael I disagree that animals are insufficient agents to bring about their I think that double standard is reasonable only insofar as their are inherent differences between men and ethical obligations apply equally to men and women sin is  But culpability is mitigated by making excuses for sinfulness based on their sex is And sex can be a mitigating  I think you actually hold excuses for sinfulness based on their sex is yes I do acting like making those excuses part of thousands of years of history of expecting greater moral performance of and punishing them much more severely when they If a mouse runs across the floor and both a man and a woman jump up on chairs and you would blame but you would blame the man sin But it makes my talk about actual examples where double standards have been used to hurt women and excuse because the actual subtext of this conversation never mind got to go do stuff Now that is You can try to place me into a but I simply fit in I admit that a double standard has been used to hurt throughout but I also deny that I am part off that double standard in making my general claim sex can be a mitigating not all you said you cheerfully admitted to judging Elizabeth more harshly because a woman and you offered an explanation of that based on universal claims The part where you are angry at me is the part where I admitted that I might be influenced by a double standard that has been part of the history of the world for thousands of years and I know what instead of engaging in a discussion to help discern where sex as a mitigating circumstance has its I am dismissed as a You added the I was just trying to be how about It certainly lead to any amending of your condemnation of just type bullshit the asterisk help true my husband used to be a not used to swearing I know how that would change my Because I know how far I should consider her sex as a mitigating or exacerbating cause of her would be a good Someone can recognize that he might be in error in his but still not see what the right judgement looks Just do it at never possible to know what factors might mitigate a because only God knows the heart would be I think it is possible to consider some in Possible and And we must make judgements about people throughout But never judge them It should be obvious that murder is no more excusable for a man than for a woman Depends on the just Men create Motherhood is no more sacred than Saying the reverse is sexist drivel dressed up as piety depends on the but not the sexes If a man killed his wife simply to marry another that would be worse than a woman who killed her husband for being with another you appear to be attempting to dig your way out of a hole you dug But all of your moving of dirt is just making it Just admit that it was a sexist comment to say against humanity are worse when committed by a relevant   I am on sound Plus that is not what I I think you just realize the evil more when a who you usually see as a nurturing is having people you are allying yourself with a tradition of judging women more harshly than that tradition has done terrible the burden that that evil is on It is how it was I admitted that it was possible and even probable that I judge Elizabeth more harshly because I believe that women have a more life nurturing role than in I would have expected you to be able to see past crass I love Big making yourself into white males have said what you You must be a bad white Elizabeth a however not what I said If a wrestler shoots a and a mother shoots the person out of anger and with no good reason I think most people are going to be more shocked that the mother did so then the That mean they deserve the same but the one does give the appearance of being a greater evil may actually be a greater evil because of her role as  therefore Elizabeth was doubly unnatural and even more subject to rebuke hahahaha Elizabeth was the As a queen she was a the whole idea that are the guardians of sexual is a modern if we want to talk about sexual morality and anyhow But you must acknowledge that for years women have been white men as inherently sexist and especially if they point out a difference in the This is clearly the of our BoYz will B bOyZ Truth  women were to weak to be culpable in the past hahahahaha Watch  somehow I think I will Is it a lacking the from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Thomas a and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the Declaration of Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each He invented electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared horse divided against itself cannot Franklin died in and is still It seems that sexism could go either bye the Why not just as well assert that when they snap women deserve the same punishment as men because they must have snapped for a reason as opposed to living out and naturally more virtuous I like white or I been out of here a looooooong time ago Hell hath no fury you wanted me to admit fault but I would like to point out that admitting the possibility of fault was precisely what got me in trouble in the first I thought I was being liberal minded about the possibility of my being influenced by historically driven sexist Lol I object to admitting the possibility of I object to what seemed to me to your unrepentant attitude about the fault Trust me admitting fault is a marriage Admit early and often subsequent comments confirmed the lack of repentence And in light of a fruitful discussion about such I would be very willing to revise my evaluation of Elizabeth since one can always be in error about such Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father of Our Then the Constitution of the United States was adopted to secure domestic Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the right to keep bare perhaps both Elizabeth I and Henry VIII were I just know that I have anything to repent of if I to what First then perform an investigation to figure out what you And do it well the thing you said about the potential women have for motherhood making them more culpable for murder is drivel dressed as piety I admit fault with my wife all the it is the fault of the Sed contra or not so latent sexism what does the first TAC film present us A TAC Film DORM After Hours What do girls do in their dorm after Film for the TAC Spring Formal Freshmen It should be a presumption that men and women sin equally when and if they If you want to say the burden of proof is on you I think I said at least that is worthy of admit fault and recant your Film not viewable on mobile Tolstoy would say the women sin much is my And he is noted and beloved for his keen eye into  Joel you scamp inhabitants of Egypt were called They lived in the Sarah Dessert and traveled by The climate of the Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live so certain areas of the dessert are cultivated by The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge triangular The Pyramids are a range of mountains between France and why are you A little levity goes a long habit and custom of tNET  The Best Scene The most compelling and gripping scene of the it shows the authority of truth and spirituality over you going to ask me why I was Are you trying to hurt my sorry I I was surprised you get more bites on your Ireland make it for being a sexist I married an incredibly strong woman who is better than me at everything that we both so thankfully she do all the things I Most of the people here went to Going to TAC is incontrovertible proof that the Irish are tolerable only when your choice of wife her choice of is to your Weiss We women are more culpable for Weiss you guess the missing now I have this on A toast to our wives and they never Now that Rebecca is here we should talk about why JPII is going to be declared a doctor of the but probably  My wife makes a mean loaf of Catherine Joliat Feil Weiss you stop talking about gender not gender talking about I think we finished talking about sex a while now just antagonizing Weiss the good Daniel was trying to throw people off the scent by accusing others of trolling Weiss Is it metaphysically possible to troll on this I have to do heed my call to I think the real question is if it is possible not to this talking if my wife tells me to then I polygon is a man has married many Weiss I have no idea what been but did recognize the Anguished English which bring joy to my supposed to be making According to my Feminine After it may be that the people who post are all jaded souls with but perhaps some innocent TAC graduate is lurking or a saintly tutor has been shown this thread by some These may be not trolling if everyone knows what is going just like Joel HF wrote my The audience is larger than the That is lurkers be And add to that despite futile there may be some head of a hiring who sees this slowly reaches for a black mark to place next to a certain This is the true art of I spent one section of junior lab finishing every sentence with that right Miss I think she thought the glare would make me catch but Larry the Eliminator was already glaring at sweetness and light in Ask any of the on I may have been drunk I I could tag her and Joel glare actually does make people catch fire sweetness and  The problem with doing is that it is boring at I can think of a canary islander that wroth her scorn at you more than Librarians have too many projectiles at My excuse when they check the timestamps is I mean I have no Nor do I bother making that would be When she would lose her voice was the best Why did no one want to talk about my cool theory about Adam and Feil Samantha Cohoe doing School Why are you tagging me Am I suppose to feign shock and horror at something Joel HF has first you need to tell me about the ontological status of this alternate Just wanted to keep you Catherine Joliat because it was idle TAC effeminate speculation jerk I missed your Too many posts ago to go back Feil will try to catch up later and promise to resurrect topics if one can never go only still trying to get Samantha to tell me she hates me Just because I have lily white and like to lie on a couch eating and watching you call me yes I do The first part of this is advice for Big Angry the second part is and has no basis in I hope that a dis of my girl Veronica I dressed up as a woman for halloween sophmore and had one of the tutors actually convinced that I was visiting from the Joe Zepeda kicked me the bloody Samantha whether or not actually those are all things I like to you know I mean good a certain value of What are something sweet and I but it sounds I want Pater google translate is failing and the fun theory for those who missed is a fun theory about the first parentage of Adam and Eve for What if Adam and Eve were not prior to humanity in but only by Philosophers these days our love to posit possible In this Adam and Eve existed in a different world than ours at the time when they committed the first but their actions in that world were determinative of the idea Adam and Eve and in so determined the history of the world in which they later came to as well as affecting the course of that world going then we retain original sin and first parenthood without having to look for one historical first There was a first but they might not have been first in First You do something stupid bauen is a bit more emphatic she gets you Second not translating the second What do you mean are Bon   the main reason I like to swear on tNET is that Pater Edmund is on it is more gauche when a woman swears I do not want to know the things heard on the other side of the well tough for you cause I go to Sinister Michael Beitia   were you not talking to What do new developments in Russian civic architecture tell us about the current regime in Classical Future The Supreme Court and Higher Arbitration Courts I was and  I have and I have not trolled I thought you meant used to hearing more scandalous things than Sam it is still so weird to me that you hear Are you a priest or use your Latin priest I knew Johannes in the class behind I think can sometimes be brothers in certain So I think you can scandalize pater Although you can disappoint  Palendromordnelap racecar Pater it means classical architecture and architects are going to be continued to be dissed by modern architects as tools of authoritarian a a Here I am irl being HEDONISM My son and I are playing If I lose I will blame pretty so it might not actually be but tNET will be blamed nonetheless my wife and I laughed a She thinks both parts are I think I know this You say something she gets you She says something you get she gets you I would like to point out for the record that I am the ONLY person male or female in the ENTIRE HISTORY of tNET who has apologized not but multiple All other wounds were Although there were some justifiable points where admitting error or offense would have been the troll apologize for its Respondeo dicendum quod contingit aliquid esse per se notum uno secundum se et non quoad alio secundum se et quoad Ex hoc enim aliqua propositio est per se quod praedicatum includitur in ratione ut homo est nam animal est de ratione Si igitur notum sit omnibus de praedicato et de subiecto quid propositio illa erit omnibus per se sicut patet in primis demonstrationum quorum termini sunt quaedam communia quae nullus ut ens et non totum et et Si autem apud aliquos notum non sit de praedicato et subiecto quid propositio quidem quantum in se erit per se non tamen apud illos qui praedicatum et subiectum propositionis Et ideo ut dicit Boetius in libro de quod quaedam sunt communes animi conceptiones et per se apud sapientes ut incorporalia in loco non My son He is I have apologized on but never you need to apologize to tNET you you need to Bad Ebola Diagnosed In For The First Time A patient was diagnosed with Ebola in the United State for the first CNBC citing the Centers it was at the insistence of the just his first I apologized more than once and retracted But I do apologize for insensitivity if not since tNET is directed by the world and is I see no need to It only moves onward and never in I wish someone would try to bring up how Tom Brady is better than Peyton But no one is that I oh Matthew Peterson and I have had that argument for he still admitted he was wrong He thinks Brady is But Probably related to his love of Samantha done some But like never to TNET needs no It is unifying by Dumping random thoughts here to pad Champions league commentators keep saying that a player is I think they mean A player in a game by definition has in the result of the game and cannot be There is no need to bring up the Brady is the guy you want with two minutes to go in the and anyone sensible would choose him over Manning in that no I just report the And I was remarkably subdued when my prophetic utterances re the results of the last superbowl came to Eli Peyton or Brady in post season And as long as you getting too close to other bodily you have no reason to fear They report it like the but in reality this is transmitted by some serious bodily fluid I would imagine primarily spread like an STD but no one speaks about it that Matthew you made your Denver was not favored to win it It had something like a in Does anyone else think it might be necessary to establish a support group for the spouses and significant others of TNET Re the our wives and Sweethearts they never is the traditional toast made on all ships at sea in the English Navy every In June David the toast changed to O O Who love His only error was overestimating mankind and underestimating my attempt at stirring the pot gets going when I am I will post something later on my questions about Berquists definition purposely overstated the issue as Unfortunately not enough but I will do a few hit and runs I have never heard of the eves Au by definition mitochondrial Eve is a single with an unbroken line of It has been shift just as Y chomosomal Adam when older lines of descent were But there are not and the genetic science be able to even make that only the last of that would be discoverable the other lines before her would be extinct and no one could say that there ever was a Daniel you remember was that after you Divine paper of on monogenism and evolutionary In one word those who claim science shows pologenism are who neither know the science nor the claims of foray in speculation over the unprecedented decline in murder reminds me of TAC students doing things like trying to prove the but could benefit from being aware of the work already done my examples case the fact that such a proof has been proved The fact murder rates increased in certain countries with a decline birth rate and aging population with respect to the Whiie demographics play a that is neither a major factor nor the reason for the unprecedent year deline nationwide in the crime Once again I urge upon people of adult in of being rate lagged The first is an indicator of the moral character of the times and has the most accounts for the incapacitation aspect have simply imprisoned a greater percentage of people than any other crime through unjust and some of the deterrent effect of has the least but measures deterrence from capital has a positive correlation as an indicator of immoral outside of we do find more variation among crimes based on economic But the funny thing about such factors as age and status more greatly impact WHAT crimes will be but not that crimes are So different classes and groups may have similar violent crime but distributed differently among different crimes when one adjusts for the greater male have the same violent crime rate as everyone but distributed While there may be certain similarities with I am with Jehoshaphat Escalante about the historicity of The tendency nowadays is to say meaning is but notthe history of but that is exactly what is to be could not be a type of Christ or the parting of the red sea a type of unless Moses actually existed and actually parted the Red The very real existence of the people and facts of the scriptures is a lynch pin of Catholic Now that mean every word signifies properly Augustine held the days thing to be describing distinction in creation rather than but it does mean it is I suspect Daniel Lendman would disagree with And just so we are we already hashed this out on TNET in actually quote from a talk I gave on all Apropos of a few scattered comments over the last day or I do really like the principle of so I think it makes a lot of lovely sense to consider the human being as a miniature representation of the ordered as the cosmos is ordered and containing all the cosmos much like an individual human being goes through many stages from birth to including a sort of up to it makes sense to me to imagine that the biological prerequisite for the immortal soul of a human being might have taken time to develop before God breathed life into We must believe that something different happened with whoever he It seems likely he had biological but that God breathed something new into him and him making him the first of his And as a person grows and more and more aware of himself and what he so the dawn of humanity was the cosmos becoming through to consider itself and think on its and praise all things He In other rationality man man And the is to give voice to the voiceless A flower or a squirrel praises God by simply being the thing it The poet speaks for speechless If I just said anything heretical please do let me Nothing even if there are difficulties did a nourish a human baby in the and how would that be or did a animal get transformed into but that in other be death for the animal and life for the There are of with saying man was created ex and admitting the existence of contemporary hominids Not a simple subject Adam was the first He named the This may or not have something to do with why I am hostile towards certain writers of versified didacticism on the subject of who promote their claptrap as the most recent common ancestor may have been years You mean Utnapishtim By the way who on TNET has read the epic of and what is your favorite Although it is not a direct translation by any I absolutely loved the verse narrative version by Herbert Isak starting to sound like someone with this talk of poetry and beasts and What What if tNET needed a What if the plots of crappy video games were Oh become that which you sought to HeeheeheeheehahaBWAHAHAHA am no Pretty sure Scott would abhor my gnostic explanation of the cosmos as waking up to If you could be a intrepid what bird would you I would be a MCRA probably not Noah think you need the IAP for One more hit and run before I By woman death entered this and by her we all women are more guilty of She gave us thanks a lot Article Whether sin was more grievous than SUMMA The first sin Was pride the first first What the first man coveted by Was his sin more grievous than all other Which sinned more the man or the favorite opening question about the the kinds of questions we would likely generate here might not be appropriate for tender young I recall our opening question for the first but I remember the Odyssey seminars with Cain as some of the best classes I had at The first few lines of the Odyssey indicate that Odysseus seeks to save his soul Does he fail or Trolling with your comments above the cosmos make me think you might be interested in my senior not about but about the cosmos and its relationship to If like a I would be interested in your take on I would be a bird of like a hawk or something with really good I just brought TNET back to its namely Class of Do I win You may have a gold but only tNET wins tNET take what I can and through the world Sean Chris Rock What you a And I would absolutely love to read take a cookie Did you just graduate with Mariclare She likes to write about the cosmos perplexed by Article more horrible than I expect Thomas to be yes and Cohoe response is if you think about His first the way in which the sin is is manifestly true with respect to headship even Eve takes her origin from which raises another difficulty with the man was formed from hominid stock even heard once they were a bizarre form of identical that the embryo but somehow she became a woman The way the sins are equal is manifestly true as well we were in the same I think or some variation of it is probably the most common word in our thesis We all kind of had the problem of trying to write about the and everything in one short What do you TNET Into the jaws of that is a universal TAC thesis problem Heh heh true Not Patience on a Absolute Love in William Twelfth  I was up to date hours ago and I just read the hour old Did we ever decide if Eves was ok or And Adams for that There is hot dispute about with one side saying very vague and the other saying definitely not Can it please be not Eves for Seven  OK then I understand first TNET Samantha you would dig my The women of Twelfth Night are The three ways he says sin was We can agree on the she did lead Adam into The first way is fascinating to because of what it implies about the tree and command of It is not clear to me how Adam believe yet still wanted to be like to God through his own The third way is the perplexing but I suppose the gist of while to love any creature before God is a as it were loved herself before but in was motivated by love of Yet we ought to love our proper good more than the proper good of Only Christ in His humanity and perhaps Mary inasmuch as she is mediatrix ought to be loved more than own good the same I suppose one could argue that If Adam his sin was worse in that respect Because of his it belonged all the more for him to lead toward God rather than follow toward In being motivated to sin out of a he was in some sense even more attached to And thus turn arguments on their head Adam was the head of from whom even Eve took her and hence was more perfect than Note Aquinas speaks of their not the perfection of their sex or command in given to Eve is derived from Adam is in some ways given more by and thus sins more grieviously It seems to even if we accept the ways the women sins more grievously as They are aggravating factors of her But sin was still worse in the primary I think here Aquinas is doing his best not to gainsay what is commonly held What do you make of the sed contra Woman plainly gets the worse punishment in the text of I love I think being distracted from my tNET duties by my duties Then I care what anyone says about good Jody Haaf have you read address on in which he reaffirms Humani In his encyclical Humani Generis my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole including his possesses such great Pius XII underlined the essential if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed the spiritual soul is created directly by God enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere As a the theories of evolution because of the philosophies which inspire regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living or as a simple epiphenomenon of that are incompatible with the truth about They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human With we find ourselves facing a different ontological ontological we could But in posing such a great ontological are we not breaking up the physical continuity which seems to be the main line of research about evolution in the fields of physics and An appreciation for the different methods used in different fields of scholarship allows us to bring together two points of view which at first might seem The sciences of observation describe and with ever greater the many manifestations of and write them down along the The moment of passage into the spiritual realm is not something that can be observed in this Pope John Paul II October To Pontifical Academy of Sciences It is with great pleasure that I send my cordial greetings to and to all of you who constitute the Pontifical Academy of on the occasion of your plenary I send my particular best wishes to the new members of the who come to take part in your work  Presuming that body was a product of then the question of mitochondrial Eve or Y chromosomal while necessarily speak anything to the origin of human persons just for a what is this supposed greater perfection of condition supposed to consist I thought I already said He was the head of all even Eve takes her origin from and in scripture we see God giving Him the commandment in He also acts as what does it consist How is it Greater Joel Aquinas conceives as the punishment of women as Weariness in pain in and being subjected to her husband many women disadain nowadays but it is He explains the subjection as not placing the man as for he already but in subjecting woman to her by obeying him even when against her own And this is worse punishment the husband is the head of the if Eve had sinned and not mankind would not have But if Adam sinned and not mankind would have fallen And I answered it I God spoke to he gave Adam His The man was the head of God the head of Seems a clear manifestation to I scripturally it just seems Though more recent popes have said that it is moral to try to alleviate the effects of the anaesthetic in I follow his first argument for the sin being i hazily recall Augustine and other fathers also speaking in a similar way Been a while since i read the beginning of I understand the dominion of the ruling over as a punishment just for Disorder of the relationship between husband and wife is punishment for And in any punishment the wife suffers is also a punishment of the as our beloved Leo Tolstoy pointed out in his How I am highly aware of the punishment of pain in pregnancy and but so is my And he is certainly suffers more by the figurative sweat of his brow than I Not this of since he got that sweet but saying Adam has is a claim that is intelligible to Saying that he had more perfect is Paul also seems to think that Eve sinned worse in Tim And the husband having to toil by the sweat of his brow is also a punishment for the insofar as he is gone or is tired or just plain help as how much is riding on who sinned I think the punishment of pain is The only thing that fell is state of The physical world is the Man as humankind not gender All the pain exists no matter what it is just part of the fable to say that it is  So what are the fixed that JPII refers to in that Remember if rationality exists everything else that goes with it exists with or without sanctifying Brian leiter is drawing what seems like well deserved heat would it be possible that two men committed the same but because of fault was mitigated in one of Statement Professor Jenkins has been targeted by Professor Brian Leiter of with derogatory and intimidating remarks privately by email in and recently with further derogatory remarks publicly on Brian supporter of Steven embroiled in his own civility controversy Illinois at may have lucked BBq could you ship some BBQ to Anyone here planning to attend the ACPA conference coming up in  have spice mice the heat is definitely case Leiter is but the Philosophical Gourmet Report continues under better I trying to deny that blame can be mitigated by got about five Come at Woman wear Heeheehee I only wear pants and short Which is Obviously since short skirts are only more evil by being a difference in kind from skirts of any are PERVERSIONS of feminine The new Inherent Vice trailer looks but PT Anderson Epirotiko Mirologi in HD at What if the pants have flowers on MEN SHOULD ONLY WEAR KILTS Oh well then that would be okay Wait you really like hahaha I recognize the excellence of certain aspects of his artistry still think good Yep Shakespeare provides the strongest ties Night is my favorite of the Though Much Ado is close I notice you say Taming of the Shrew CAUSE IT FUNNY kidding but Peace cutting me I just got to play Malvolio this past April May I recommend that Caleb attend a quick meeting at the TNET Addict Support Down the hall to the Joshua Kenz who claim science shows pologenism are who neither know the science nor the claims of Perhaps then you could enlighten me as to how to correctly interpret the data that these believe to show Thank you in These beers are about to be had on my patio by Joshua Kenz and Maybe I should ask him this Wow TNETers hanging out in real life I think my mind never really registered that a nice Rented a good deal we are lucky to behind me is a stone bar with an outdoor And all tNETers have an open Matthew let josh know that I think Long but I miss disagreeing with me only a jerk on the To Edward where are you in I have spent more then my fair share there and in regular contact with good people in the Jeff Hyattsville miles from Jeff are you all in the Why we all got  You could have let me know this Matthew when I lived local but now in a Texan by adoption but not by Jeff who are you blocked Joshua Kenz I think in the coming years we must have a tNET I lived in temple city for quite a while and was a daily regular on the foothill cities then I bought a mansion in Now in Alcohol will be a factor often in CA in the Lol yeah Kenz blocked me after I called him and I generally have made it to the various TAC alumni I to be in DC about every two I am picturing a TNET party when we approach with There will be much and laughter and And at the end when the fireworks go as Matthew Peterson posts the Scott and Isak hug and swear eternal friendship Fade We missed Jeff but been back and The FC blog will rise But this Movie You strike me Wars Star wars quote Edward Langley Let me And Brian you need to get out As a prof Fc blog had the Best political news of Scott is the sine qua non of And Bond is a political fact worth Matthew I think I met one of your at a party out a I think he was studying Get your head back up in the clouds with us Lol When do you start a new political I understand the benefit of a two party But money matters and the form changes based on the function and the name no longer Vote Spaceman What is the How do you define a common good party and In modern what constitutes the common rents are too But rent covers the mortgage and is defined by liberty and What should a congressman do to support I think the congress should pass a law forgiving all mortgage  But they should tell me so I can by a mansion before that No An executive You have many good ideas that one of I think the whole real estate market needs an I know exactly what the best way to inflation and speculation would but something like that is maybe happen naturally as the move into nursing Life is Protect it whenever Only remove it if defined by continual criminal threat or inability to maintain with available Once baby boomers die the market will be drastically The laws need to change are on multiple home If you are buying a second home you should not be able to get a traditional mortgage on If it is an investment property it should be taxed To discourage multiple home There probably should be legal controls over the distribution of mortgage payments to interest and For most investment property it is owned outright Paid in How can a potential property owner compete with paying a traditional mortgage when rental prices are always Regarding controls of distribution of payment a to I treat and those are naturally created by the lending In general it is a loan to Anything outside requires gov intervention I have crazy mistyping due to Please forgive the autocorrects which make all my typing Swype on Android phones makes typing much less But I wish there were a decent phone with some sort of real We need a Day of Wot jubilation It occurred every years in Leviticus when all debts would be forgiven We And I just sold my so I want to hear anything about forgiven totally selfish Edward you speak of Greg who is now a shrink in Isak I think we will have enough by them to pay for Sir Elton to come out and sing a special Madisonian version of Rocket Man on my Where is this you speak of coming No But we monetize tNET monetizes wurd Daniel Lendman just because obviously a somewhat bombastic and deliberately confrontational way of phrasing The heart of the matter is what John Paul II said in what I quoted ontological leap not being discernible within the scientific ask science to answer the origin of humanity qua beings with rational souls is to ask it something outside its the behind such claims are not without controversy and debate about their implications even within the scientific My experience has largely been with those not knowing the science take as a premise it has shown and present that as a reason to abandon And they do end up quite idiotic in doing the Maritainian view of political secularization has not been confirmed by Political secularization has been associated not with better understanding of the distinction between spiritual and but with that intellectual and political True or Jacques Maritain and the problem of Church and State This given at Mundelein in October THOMAS PINK the modern mortgage industry combines two things least usury and crony After the multiple bank debt should have been Michael We regulate financial Goldman tapes expose Fed weakness tape recordings of Fed bank You trust our aristocratic But it is the office of the wise to first up against the sed the demos at Lena Reasons Why I Vote You Should an online list not The tyranny of the Create monetize tNETtery Asterisks make it Beitia tNETcoin tPhone Why do they keep quoting Jews in the CathoIics simpIy Christian Wow that Dunham is an obnoxious person Just ignore She is simply looking for I pray for her as your fellow human in that was out of deference for all the virginal eyes on Lena Duhnam is the tyranny of faction James Madison would have watched Faction is the opposite of naturaI Faction is Alexander Hamilton would have worked for Goldman One with equal blame the goldman sachs thing on the of factions against each which dominates DC today in the form of rampant rent It because we are but because we try to play private interests off one another as a substitute for seeking the common Of even as cynical as I many in Washington continue to seek the common But the lobbyists pass the Alexander Hamilton would have run Goldman watch your before or after he regulated Goldman that was a joke at What does being British Ask the Spanish Telegraph The popular image of invasion and STEPHEN OPPENHEIMER The Big Lebowski Cuss Words The Dude meets The Stranger for the first Another hilaious line of British and Basque using asterisks Whatever is TNET coming Emphasis is different than Asterisks offend Did you guys know there is such a thing as the opposite of a called a when you substitute a more offensive term for one that is not or less  We caII this The Ianguage of Which as government the exact opposite of the meaning of Thanks to even good ideas can sound horrible and simple problems can have unnecessarily complex solution A conservative is someone who wants expensive soIutions to compIex A IiberaI is someone who wants even more expensive soIutions to simpIe A Iibertarian is the guy saying Why They You got it On all three libertarians are against the common Guys Politics is the art the care of which is Have you ever played the board game called It starts with the even distribution of funds followed by rotating chance and accidental but as luck falls to some and not others monopolies are It starts with a rural community and ends in the Once you start landing on hotels you are not able to change your This is why libertarians destroy Once the gas and electric are owned by the same the price goes up ten You can be a libertarian and oppose Probably most of them Define Iibertarianism is based on the most common good of aII and onIy that truIy common good sentient Everything beyond that is AII Iibertarians oppose monopoIies by At we may suffer some monopoIies onIy because we found a better way Almost everyone opposes but that change the trajectory of an economy according to libertarian strengthens community by removing reIiance on With one must reIy on your reIationships with other and that onIy strengthens With you even have to see or hear from your Of if you have a weak enough you lose the ability to effectively oppose big corporations Thanks for your misunderstanding of and thus you lose the ability to oppose monopolies as well I thihnk I hit it squarely Without there are no lol Libertarians are a seemingly fairminded windowdressing for corporate It has been tried and shown to lead to corporate Government protects oIigopoIy by and in hundreds of Maybe you call them but nothing intrinsic to a free market that prevents huge businesses I say that Corporations have government everyone has gov can you state another super wide generalization And government And used to be onIy granted for proyects no business aIone or even government couId speciaI government Goes without the last two statements are not clear not saying our current government does an awesome job preventing abuse by but your proposed government would be even Protections private companies do  which By strengthening the roIe of the Which protections are you thinking of By strengthening the roIe of IndividuaI Investor You can own stock and avoid I think vastly overplaying the degree to which the role of and individual effort would be strengthened without government Easy No need to God is that humans are I think underestimating it Investors are they provide up front capital in exchange for future return been meeting more neighbors than ever and forming friendships to cover for the faiIure of government right aII heIping each been donating to church more than HeIping others more than Air rushes into a by failure of government you made the assumption that government is supposed to provide something a fun idea that a libertarian proposed to my husband minimum guaranteed income for all to replace all welfare If you invest in a private you can be sued more On the good corporations aIIow workers and non miIIionaires to own businesses without forming And you make the assumption I want zero govrernment I Are you saying all that keeps Take away those sure do which Businesses fail not a That is an That is a sociaIist We have those destroying these the protections Ashman was talking liability stuff I think a great idea worse than what we Or wiII be the moment a poIiticians gets his hands on very familiar with liability in why I know that there are very few exemptions to liability In any NOT a Calls himself a heart The business is not the Is ashman against tort I probabIy know The owners lose their investment  against speciaI most definately When a stock goes down in the stock holder lost investment find me a free economy without and we can Kevin Vallier Political Philosophy and Ethics at Bowling Green Welcome I am an Assistant Professor of Philosophy guy The special protections are called can you name a business or product that is indemnified against a look to the guilded Big business was doing just but workers were getting Caleb I met an intelligent libertarian at the For anyone over years a contradiction in And I registered my in similar terms to And Caleb and told me some of his ideas and he sounded all like the minimum guaranteed income as a way to replace welfare programs very interested in this Kevin Vallier though I doubt agree much with him Libertarian Police Department The New Yorker I was shooting heroin and reading can nobody name an indemnified Minimum guaranteed income is nope The BIG peopIe are aImost AII professors who know anything about the reaI word and gIom onto sociaIist poIicy Iike moths to a I knew you know  If you you You are liable for the resuls of your product or service and your business is at risk Limited Liability Corporations are designed for small businesses to keep the liability of the business separate from the personal assets of the proprietor basic income guarantee I argue with these peopIe at their website and other I know if he goes by that argued with the biggest peopIe proposing probabIy a I was about to ask for Ashman to clarify what it is he is looking for and then I why Matt Steve no doubt in their  what I am NaturaI Nothing That derive  If Caleb had met at the conference he would have said met a very dim libertarian with delusions of and Samantha would have said about They exist with or without Sentience gets to natural I get The right to And apparently not But what stops anyone from infringing your natural  A gun can do a sentient Like in A court As tribes it Bentham who said rights are nonsense on Tell me what a natural right is and what it I guns are excellent for violations of A private Private There are government can be a Iimited lol so now that I have my private how do you stop me from infringing your rights Government is a now that I have my private how do you stop  Only the weak minded rely on or The true hero knows what he wants and takes It is Ayn Rand parody what I stop you with Transformers No one is saying at that point where a governmentIess society is But it ought to be a I only have They wouId no doubt exist by now in a free that is why you Jeffie fun watching Christians rationaIize the naturaI enemy of the I have freedom as my libertarian Transformers fastest way to reduce crime is conceaIed because there is no correlation between having a and shooting someone with The cartels seem to be rather they let silly government get in their private and private air force Why That only allows the who armed themselves to profit from those who There are a Iot of bad peopIe aIIowed to thrive in a society that protects herd immunity with concealed Everyone should carry an AK Netanyahu caIIed the Human Rights CounciI the Rights It was pretty funny except going to the want to ride The problem with libertarians is that they see whatever is other as the There are also a lot of idiots who thrive in a society that protects for which you should be  Very Christian of Laughter is use your godlessness as a it work Obnoxiousness is not You have no argument so you resort to ridicuIe instead of so do you know of any businesses that are indemnified from Human rights natural rights Matthew Peterson was outIining the causes we have in Matthew Peterson is a jerk If they are not the then they are Did you get feelings Why not start by saying what you mean by You have to repeat it three times ina You attend the cIass stiIi missing cut and paste not fast I assume you now what they Do peopIe have a naturaI right to medicaI do you know of any indemnified A quick google search should find a list PeopIe are Even if I I really would have no idea what mean by the And not just list define the AIso they can restart with a different let me just put this out rights to not They can remove money to keep it from being taken and then Then not a nor a I rights do not exist So you know of any truly protected say anything with an inc at the we protected the banks with free and free nope If rights God certainIy wrong You can sue a corporation for any number of reasons What can you not you know there is no such thing as The bankers just saw what they wanted and took You complain because you are But not the They can shift the cIaim pick over their own bones and John your big complaint that corporations have limited liability as to their I am inferior because I open a bank as I couId years The investors money is lost up It is already Certain investors are restricted due to insider and therefore are not allowed to sell That they are chartered for reasons pertaining to making the not for actuaI necessity to any Iegitimate goaIs of government In cases where people are using corporations as shuffling personal assets and then shuffling them back as suits will actually pierce the corporate veil and hold the principal If you are an you are restricted to waiting until hours after the quarterly earnings report before you are allowed to make a If you are senior stock holder you have to file with the SEC Insider trading is a crime based on the advantage given to corporations that peopIe Wait a thought Government What legitimate ends of That rareIy happens Even their own professed so you do not know which industries are indemnified against law through debating you until you define what you mean by give you the Primary Defense When their product things go and there is much When it well the result is the But you can not sue the defense contractor because the product did or This is a government protection over the Without contractors do not sell product since it would risk the business but yet another IeveI of So you prove my  Why shouId they have protection when others do This is the reason why indemnification because it proves the point that all other businesses ARE AT Courts are there to makes these Of they aII shouId But not their Then nobody would make defense products  lol You are waiting to be rolled over by another state that care what you believe means Companies shift money back to make is safe and untouchabIe and so when things go they investors are free to reform the virtuaIIy teII me it it happen oops then in deniaI of reaIity and no further discussion is Except that I have experience in this reality and it protects whether you want protection or not You are welcome Go down to it is far more libertarian there The inability for the government to come to your the private armies that do not care what your rights the private police force that will act for whoever pays highest You get what you you hold it by your own or lose it by lack of ability to defend yourself I do now who he is Iibertarians have been fighting the good fight against these guys on BHI but they bIock us pretty quickIy for pointing out the inherent issues with their Enemy of Social Justice and Friend of a Universal Basic Until I had only read the first two books When the government does step they are just a bigger entity that takes what it wants when it wants because what natural rights leads to what are your thoughts on Mexican What is the status in Baja I think convinced me start a private tNET army and declare ourselves with does the army have a does it have full have to find a dentist to and it is else but respect your natural a I object to resistance Help Help being I resist the TNET standing army you can still have OTHERS do the violence for us I will just be conscientious but how else will our natural rights be protected unless we I take back what I said about libertarians being They are zealots and lovers of argument by anecdote like Are these libertarian or Listening to this is like an anarchical interpretation of are naturally just because I cannot think of a world where natural rights are getting a or maybe my hang on while I get some someone suggest communitarianism a few thousand posts Transformers I have a hotline to Optimus Prime Libertarian communitarian anarchism sounds good to Is Ayn Rand you already join my political party comments You and too never read anything by yes but it seems to be the same as  Like only more of a jerk But objecting to your standing I blocked Ashland long Otherwise I have money enough for the scotch You would enjoy Atlas Shrugged until it takes a death spirAl of world is better without and it gets into a page monologue spelling out the  How about a more practical application of personal rather than standing lets bring back telling that the scene in the is a rape is certainly not You become inhuman just because How Gandhi But I have two friends and you are I think a basic tenet of libertarianism is do no harm extreme scenario Or maybe just part of being If you are after your own interests first and Then compassion is not required conscientious objectors standing Whom should I Who says what libertarianism Do no harm also means that you let your neighbor die from neglect The Revelations of Marilynne Robinson In her fourth the author returns to the mythical town of Gilead and her exploration of the WYATT MASON is very Pater did you see this do no harm and do nothing are Do no harm is also a tenet of the medical That mean they bother Human action is a but inaction is Do as much as possible and do not stop helping under penalty of a great little piece by Belloc on He argues by anecdote like Bastiat and shows that they are Too bad I do Once a qualified medical professional starts cpr they are not allowed to stop until relieved by higher as much as possible and do not stop helping under penalty of What does this government society form Even if the body is cpr must but the kind of government depends on the If the person applying aid stops they are government society form being having that The best libertarians are compassionate despite being libertarian but I think that is the about making money and that is their government is the principle which organizes the and by which one society differs essentially from government form Humans are They are born into and at some point they must decide how they structure the The family is a natural society that exists from the necessity of humans to come together to make new Right once you start playing Monopoly it is all fun and games until you make it around the Both the family and the political societies are Catherine Ryland Then it is up to particular societies to decide how they are  That we have political societies is In political society is in some way natural because it is ordered to the perfection of the adult man rather than a society ordered to the completion of a Just like it is natural for humans to build What kind of dwelling we build depends on the political society follows on man as family follows on man as I tell if Catherine or More natural in the sense that it is more according to human But societies exist in relation to each other and not just the component parts and also as ordered to the good of that nature in its Ayn Rand always played dumb about that rape scene in rape even though she fought him and never consented in any because she wanted it and he knew Which actually makes it I think For it seems to me that in heaven there will be government but not married nor given in and all that That is an evil One or more of the kids cries or nearly After time they become heartless money masters or chin up destitutes brooding their but there will be a hierarchy ordered to which hierarchy is a but Christ said his kingdom is not of this And I think it will be a different kind of hierarchy certainly not a struggle for power or I arguing that the heavenly government is the temporal just that men in a perfect state form a political Which is what happens when earthly rulers not try to order people to their own ends of what is But Powers and Dominions have structure the for power or is accidental even to temporal I agree with your last both of which are above arch angel  two comments replace with since the heavenly government would include God and the blind stupid because I your comment mean I agree with you need to Government leads the people as the libertarian political philosophy fool human being The problem with libertarianism is that every single one of its adherents anyone that hears about has a different idea of what it everyone needs to scroll up and have a good laugh at the libertarian police are you going to become the next thread Any Flannery fans Marilynne Robinson has some harsh words for her in the profile I linked objecting how great would it be if we could get Marilynne Robinson on here to argue with us about Flannery if you agree with my comments about government being the form of you be a if libertarianism means it means treating government as a necessary I used to like Flannery a even named our python after but a lot of the short stories ran into each the form of society is both a good and something necessary if you have natural Marilynne Robinson is super against She said so in the lecture I went prose is her imagination appalls Robinson on In the duties others owe you is that from which one is said to have a and you only have a right so long as some one owes you a a lot of writing about religion with a cold but virtually none with a loving thank you my point  tNET is the definition of cold eye heart tnet owes me the duty of entertainment my cold eye is for tNET and my loving heart for my are you not I like to imagine all EXACTLY the same in other as the real life of tNET I imagine that you are quiet and reserved and do not let your opinions be known by others Because of the on earth you are always going to need some kind of system for bringing justice The question what kind of and how much should the system be allowed to require or prevent human but you actually know is Jeff take a wild guess Am I ever I may be obtuse but not wrong I have to the on tNET are pretty true to their real life  glad I was gone by  we are  you be the way they seem to have clamped down I probably have made it to November freshman I still think we should have a TNET reunion or rather since many of us have never I threw the best dorm parties all your favorite tNETers are Matthew Peterson and Isak Benedict were already discussing that Clearly we had the best I threw the best TAC parties of all By my parties would be not I never partied at actually not Except at my right  For general you wear first magazine Houghton Library Blog first magazine was published in an my first TAC party was in LA with a stabbing and a police helicopter Goodness When did the alcohol ban take Someone had a heart attack and died at one of the graduation parties for our I want to hear this Alcohol ban under halfway through our blighted Stupid California Mine sound They were at a fabulous beach house where the free booze but I had sanctioned alcohol in the dorm We did and sometimes Catherine Joliat Feil made us fancy I can vaguely remember blood from the stabbing victim listlessly drifting in the pool Iibertarianism is often seen as in contradiction to reIigion because it heId that peopIe are free and not part of But modern Iibertarianism hoIds that peopIe are free and not part of but are certainIy free to be reIigious and wiIIfuIIy engage in pIan as Iong as it does not affect the rights of others to choose other no wonder you were so In a Iibertarian society wouId be substantiaIIy more friendIy to the I think you forgot to use present tense we automatically participate in plan willfully or Samantha that was a willful what is the role of the What kind of The difference is that we beIieve in being forced into it by men who ciaim to understand wiII I do gotcha arguments When ready to have an actuaI aIter your If a government has dominion over a where do you go if you do not wish to Feil Samantha Cohoe you the tiniest bit afraid that this new MR novel will be this particular put it Any experiment in based solely on generous cooperation between members of be it absent government or government imposed requires an infallible concept of honor and virtue embedded in a only asking simple you seem to think everything is a it not that I think the internet is the best example of a free TNET is the perfect I am the tiniest bit afraid of Feil i think part of the reason that Gilead succeeds is that she color in all the But just the tiniest I have great faith in What do you Of the relationship between John Ames and why the Church wouId have a robust part of any Iibertarian if it can contain itseIf from trying to become a buIIy or wieId more mundane types of Feil in particular I was thinking that she hints about background but actually say all that By force you mean moral Feil My fear is that if she spells it all out and not all that great of a it will change how I see or is this your force of the Feil Sometimes that happens with For anyone can talk about what they want at the same time Peterson shuts it I had already seen much She written a book that was that yet Feil I think is a better book than although I like but then they can go begin alternate societies with their own guidelines I think I agree But I think Lila is a character who is worthy of some coloring I definitely had the sense of a lot under the surface with her From the Eliot journal you wear If so wear Never fine for Bulldogs cannot tear Feil likely to be very But afraid it might not I vouch for Jeff not being that clever Why thank you I knew you would support does that place Peterson in the role of philosopher  it places him in the role of mitigating all of our faction Feil The book even out yet and already holds at the library the seven copies thanks for reminding so I can be hold and minor deity through compassion allowing and able to bring the end of times without not going to buy your socialist no  Feil cheap and I might not like Still feeling a bit recover kinds of stories are gaining ground for a and are on the verge of becoming politically actionable for far more people than libertarians and the occasional nod from the mainstream on the Matthew Peterson Feil a little confusing with all these conversations going on at But naptime is apparently so bowing why do you pick on being summoned to play more because he plays guitar I somebody take a screen shot That is awfully Canadian of I must be having a bad influence on I think it may be time to go home from if government is a natural it then follow that the more government there the The one thing that peopIe truIy have in and therefore makes it the onIy truIy common good is the concept of naturaI We aII want the right to to pursue to have our to retain our property and fruits of our to have our to speak to act to Once you go beyond you end in The as weII thought out as it couId possibIy be for the caused faction because it aIIowed for additionaI infringements of but passed because it contained protections for Thomas Jefferson was phiIosophicaIIy as were many others in varying Jesus was as I never saw anything about force or coercion in his that seemed to be aII added if you hate forget to hate I hate I just think they are not prepared to run a What would Libertarians do with What would Libertarians do with national highway What would libertarians do with the Or national What would a libertarian CIA Are you actuaIIy wiIIing to read an Please talk about You betray your ignorance and make me  okay to be Especially on The reaI jesus or the imaginary You still provided a decent proof against existence not how onus but the truth should be proveable no matter what so if the truth is it should be If that were so rational folk would all assent to the truth ObviousIy the goaI wouid be to phase out the need for these programs or privatize I personaIIy thinc that the NHS shouId be segregated from government with its own constitution it must Some thinc private companies can handIe I am not convinced of It would save all of us from this silly philosophy all based our beliefs around There is no scientific proof of It is a I want a scientific proof not for something that ends in God is It would NationaI some wouId say privatize I prefer the idea of spinning them off as an NPS with their own The Smithsonian wouId get spin off to be its own non profit why There is no such thing as a Iibertarian Contradiction in I fear that land when not owned by a government would get sold to the highest bidder What about all the other letter CouId be for profit but the probIem is that if profit is invoIved in communaI then you have the temptation to But I be against it out of If not in the aIready against Can a constitution be My point the constitution of the NPS wouId prevent saIe of property for the most It can but usuaIIy hard on who has voting rights on those Could I pay them off and buy old I want the Yellowstone lodge as my summer residence I lack all common morals and I have incalculable I plan on buying what I What stops me in the libertarian I will buy the voting majority and change what I can a libertarian stop Or does libertarianism only work if we all are If God then I am not ultimately accountable to unless I buy But MONEY can buy Nobody be I even buy people off all at I will put them on a payroll and pay them slowly over I will profit from their actions which makes the whole system self sustaining lack all common morals and I have incalculable I plan on buying what I What stops me in the libertarian The price of stuff you want wouId go up to destroy your What if you get Can you Iive forever and sustain Who controls the I would take them I am a I know I will die one day but I will eat and destroy along my I do not care about the I will not be here in just taking advantage of the  you could see this system would fall prey quickly to the most It would be self destructive What if in your everyone goes on weIfare and no one pays No government to stop it like Atlas they all die So you think that not aIready achieved your worst fears with You participate or else quite the opposite the controls within government stop my theoretical behaivor the factions are too hard to control pIease feeI free to taIk about Geesus and aII my feel free to prove God can not possibly exist What if everyone stops working and goes on Then welfare stops you understand lol I think I do understand it and you are the decenter that claims minority If you had a decent you could persuade Since the truth is what people So the Sun revoIved around the Earth untiI the or rather be GaIiIeo than one of the You he offered science and proof I never said God is OnIy that there is no proof and beIief a good way to run the You strawman a If you did the same people would have reason to agree with you and sorry you have a point And who was it that Iost that It wouId have been cooI for Geesus to Iet peopIe know the things they understand so they get it wrong for another Think of it not as a but as scientific method  You divert in order to avoid having to make an argument at What is your proof of Or that Geesus was That thing that caused everything but was not caused I call That omits And seIf Things All things that moved are moved by something Infinite regression is not Something moved something else but did not itself Whatever that unmoved thing was is called God all the other properties are harder to But the existence can not be what about Galileo would you rather actually not quite how the cosmological argument  but good enough for Ashman  But for an infinite regress of causes is only impossible if positing a certain kind of cause Is it seIf How do you Did it create Or are we the product of a byproduct of entropic There Must Be A Why Thomas Aquinas Rejects CALEB COHOE For the sake of the argument none of that If there is no there is no Time is a description of simpIy redefining God and making into that fits this not God is seIf God is a God God is simiIar to onIy Still no definition of natural And I think Flannery had a huge Oh john You are so Oh and as a work of Home may be more in a certain strictly organization is never the product of entropic but enthalpic And none of that is necessary to get the first necessary That a brig with these properties I know I think her attitude towards most of her characters is almost except remove the that was cowardly of Strike the almost She usually likes at least one character per I though that help them name one in Enduring cause I remember that one best I prefer Gilead by a But both are The Irish Jesuit She seems genuinely fond of him I think Though that whole character exists to demonstrate her contempt of the main character seems like all silly and wrongheaded like the main I was fond of I think he was just And he got the point much better than his name ifyou admit you understand naturaI have never read understand the then expIain but otherwise not a circus Asbury maybe more like the bearded the Jesuit was the priest in I And she certainly contemptuous of all of I Motes for The stranger and the EquaI and opposite My theory is that as entropy there wiII be accidentaI That the entropy frees up the energy to create spontaineous OnIy a maybe more contempt for the main character more argument I imagine a debate team without anything all read Locke probably mean we have to posit natural rights as you mean There are two Jesuits in The Enduring the cultured one in the the half deaf in Georgia or wherever it I was speaking of the not the thinking of the priest who comes to confess asbury when he thinks dying go with the common understanding I have never heard of any variations on naturaI what are the competing I see that with the comment above I meant the He was the Irish onr I one of compatriots asserted that onIy Americans have naturaI but I think maybe he might be John I think Joel wants to know what you characters or  I know this is way off the current topic but back to the original Quotes from the Because of its common origin the human race forms a for one ancestor made all nations to inhabit the whole She was totally contemptuous of the grandma to begin with  The interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic in the light of the New Testament and teaches that our first Adam and were constituted in an original of holiness and This grace of original holiness was share  This entire harmony of original foreseen for man in will be lost by the sin of our first Entropy is the naturaI tendency to I heIp but think it comes with accidentaI literature for the theology at  Sorry return  Did anyone else realize that the original link of this thread is What does that mean for does anyone need me to send them a is similar to only Sounds like your mistaking us for And in your theory of entropy it sounds like there would be a lot of bouncing heads for every whole and complete Do you really reject the necessity of an The whole point of the story was that it took a gun pointed to her head for grama not to be NaturaI shortened That which man has naturaIIy which directIy harm or coerce entropy a natural tendency to  And now cue the diversion to argue over the defintion to distract from the You think vwhat Locke Define it as you define And there goes right ons TeII me oh what is naturaI rights in one That which man has naturaIIy which harm or coerce Evolution absent of the not the one positing my entire life philosophy on the fond of Harry in noun PHYSICS a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a thermal energy for conversion into mechanical often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the lack of order or gradual decline into marketplace where entropy reigns This is the probIem with tNET Argue over defintions rather than InsuIt rather than And I certainly claim that I know what natural rights are absent from God and his moral order do I need to send you the Definitions from a dictionary understanding Unless you mean in a BR sort of way Iife phiiosophy in one Interesting that you think there can be productive discussion when definitions are unclear a character being contemptible mean hated INteresting that you thinoften interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the there can be a conversation that never gets past fighting over I object to the way you used It even fit the dictionary definition Geoff redefined God in a way no dictionary has nor any reIigion has gets a totaI I say she hates I said she has contempt for them Of it more cIoseIy matches mine God that which we Entropy it makes it less what is Jeff said God is an unmoved redefined nothing Energy has to go somewhere and do no it the point of Google I imagine that as the universe there wiII be Iess and Iess Iife Another Look at Entropy Understanding Uncertainty Content Entropy is a tendency for systems to move towards disorder and a quantification of that Define Entropy Universe Today Jan What is The most way to explain it is to say that it describes the natural tendency of the universe to fall apart into Define Entropy What is The most way to explain it is to say that it describes the natural tendency of the universe to The Second Law of and All processes manifest a tendency toward decay and with a net increase in what is called the or state of randomness or The Second Law of and Probability Does evolution violate the second law and disorderly molecules are the same and the same temperature with less usable definition of Disorder the tendency of any system to move toward randomness or en a the tendency of a system to Definition of in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary of matter and energy in a closed system to degrade into an equilibrium of uniform inertness and The apparent suspension of entropy in animate systems is used to support the philosophy of Want got pages fuII htat support my use of usable energy Do you read your again ENTROPY ANYTHING ON Within the system there can be fIurries of increased that do not result from entropy Dr Pedantry The disordering of the sun Iets Ioose heat and not strictly speaking true You seem PiIed High and Deep on the entropy is in a the sun let loose anything otherwise the system closed John Ashman go back to the shadows of whatever from which you which means that you understand entropy Michael I think its time to stop troll feeding Samantha put forth an argument instead of to I hate it when people try and justify stupid beliefs with bad science Except for aII of those definitions that dovetaiI with my just because and trying to hide behind a bunch of armchair handwaving when REALITY is out no they Try to expIain your reIigion with good or So do we all always some excuse for troll feeding dinner is almost so be free in a minute Why is MichaeI not a I am Definition just more human sounding that cough John What does to explain your religion with even not coherent enough to argue with dumbass I asserting science when I made my onIy an you started with then cited Newton and dinner is ready out Cats always land on their feet when you drop Bread with peanut butter on it always lands on the PB Strap the bread on the Perpetual Strapping the PB side to a back will cause a black all I know about this A theory which is why onIy a Step Gravitation Step Guacamole Step aaahhhh QEF We will leave it to the student to fill in the necessary Joseph Andrew Morgan I Branch From one of There is a universal tendency for all systems to go from order to as stated in the Second and this tendency can only be arrested and reversed under very special We have already in Chapter that disorder can never produce order through any kind of random There must be present some form of code or to direct the ordering and this code must contain at least as much as is needed to provide this there must be present some kind of mechanism for converting the environmental energy into the energy required to produce the higher organization of the system any system that experiences even a temporary growth in order and complexity must not only be to the energy but must also contain a to direct the growth and a to energize the Extrapolating that to the how do you get out of the necessity for an A scientific theory is worthless in this discussion because there is too much room for Hence the need for Michael Beitia Friedman was a strong proponent of a negative income as is his Basic guaranteed income is a big thing among many though present it as political masses will not leave the teats of mother so at least do it in a better I actually agree with Friedman about a negative income but ideally I would get rid of such national preferring more local and subsidiary groups aiding their members and only being aided by a larger like the when necessary Cohoe In the Summa argument is is a first therefore not an infinite But in the Summa contra gentiles he arguments that go no infinite regress therefore a the argument that it would entail an infinite cap So this Ashman fellow is a I wonder if I ran into him glad I seen a single post of his this whole thread I get Joshua Kenz making but since here you should know decided that by perfect you and Thomas just meant and that therefore we really because you yelled at my socialist minimum income but who is guaranteeing the basic the constraining the benevolent job I that was when I went temporarily and I only yelled at you because of your totally unrelated comment about the book you were also talking Never miss an opportunity for a mistaken identity Hmm Difficult Marriage in A Modern Age In the famous reformer Pope Pius V condemned various propositions from the writings of a little Yay what were you at Yale Div When did you Dropped out to have Would have been Do we share Well I was thinking we but no Yale facebook overlap I have a couple friends from the Div Mostly Terry James I quite subscribe to CouId actuaIIy mean or that we have understood thus MichaeI convenientIy onIy uses any definition that suits his agenda and discards aII others as immateriaI and Why is there something rather than I worship the But I pray to Joe The basic question of God is IiteraIIy in the a Heidegger sorry you missed it The big difference we know what we apparently you requires a closed system did you imagine I was repIying to This was a cool Why Does the World An Existential Detective Story The Washington Post Notable of It is cIosed for the purposes of the I think you capable PhiIosophy strives to gustify taste I really want to meet some of these TNETers in person Justify to find a J to I was thinking of Socrates bending over and biting his met a few of  what class are  These all over the place would have left just before I got there you were under the dominion of my brother when he was head then Matthew why should speech among madmen on TNET be kept I remember who was head prefect when I was a I was very well behaved that Who is your Wait was it Matt I could list off all four of  For the after Ashman attributed the unmoved mover to on my book Tac is going to be on the more thoughts on and whether she has contempt for all her the milieu she writes about is largely it is a milieu of philistines and But she have contempt for her all her characters nor are they all Rather than go through each here are three broad of The These character contemptible at though they often reach But so do the heroes in Greek The boy in the in Lame Shall Enter Sinners with open These are men who realize that the world is blind and terrible and but have up with as Elliott might The Misfit and Rufus the juvenile delinquent from Lame shall Enter The third category belongs to those who are seeking This overlaps largely with but here it is people been on the wrong realize that the world is and attempt somehow to reform themselves by taking a The problem for them is generally that while they know something must be they have little idea of what that something and their grand actions and plans pouring quicklime in their generally gang Motes from Wise Blood and Parker from These categories entirely static and some characters The world and backdrop of work is bleak and though often laugh out loud funny as I dispute the claim that she holds all her characters in Some of but not all by any If learned anything in that nothing is off The passages from the Catechism speak to the reality of an original sin that we all inherit from our first Since the Church does not currently have another theory other than the traditional one about who the first parents were or how that sin is she continues to use the language of that traditional theory to describe The point that I have been maintaining is that although the existence and propagation of original sin is the exact nature of the first parents and the exact nature of the propagation has yet to be fully Many people want to have everything and to feel that they have everything all figured but not the way revelation Kenz rightly points out strictly science cannot undermine monogenism because science in the modern sense does not speak to the reality of substantial a collection of hominids that biologists might consider the first parents of the human race might not all be human in the strict philosophical What scientific investigation might is show to be but possibly also beyond reasonable that the current human race is descended from a breeding pool that never dropped below a certain number that might be much greater than since before humans were This would imply either polygenism or that human beings interbred with animals at some Many find this distasteful or philosophically The former it but given human nature it is also intrinsically The latter objection is indicative of a failure to understand the nature of substantial I was just being a smartass Michael the small breeding pool also applies to People think that story was real I think an ark existed but he only saved the local if science points toward a breeding population in excess of the passengers on the what are we to Clearly something flooded in the mideast Mt Arafat get the archeological studies it I love I regret the slow process and politics that slow it that would be anthropological if Arafat were a mountain and not a dead The question of how many were in the post deluvian genetic pool and was answered by the midnight tNET theological society circa comment answer was a little obscure but suggested one and several older female his wife and daughter in But I am pretty ignorant on the Stupid autocorrect Reanimate Arafat and water board him till he In any Adam have somehow had the ability to generate a diverse genetic Add more to the gene Then generate over and over again inbred style until various traits survive and others End geographically differentiated races of Pigmies and Vikings My beloved only If Adam lived as long as he seems to have plenty of time to produce a huge population God could have given him unusual genetic diversity as a special Not Science is not of so I why it be But in pre Deluvian nature Cool story All I know is that all of mankind takes its descent from Adam and Eve as our first that positing bestiality early on would mean a very grave depravity immediately after the leaving aside the problems of like begetting That original sin is propagated through and that whether or not the various genetic bottle necks science discovers in the history of human descent correspond with the flood or Adam and Eve or because of the ontological assuming man was form ex materia from hominid is not evidenced in this science cannot in show that the human population was always at a number greater than since one cannot distinguish in the data that ontological Scotus has a really interesting instrument against an infinity of per se causes might get the details The prior per se cause is a more perfect cause then the posterior if there were an infinity of per se there would be an infinite cause a cause greater than an infinity of given because postulating an actual An infinite cause depend on A cause that depend on another is a first if there were an infinite number of there would be a first But an infinite number of causes lacks a therefore it is QED Now I have to go to And I will reread the mind of the Church that it is a true historical which must mean something more than conveys some abstract truths about myths attempt to do But that know if it really but it sure is cool Michael the same to the extent that it is would exclude a breeding pool as small as family as Having said there is already plenty of reason to think that there was never a global flood such as that described in the Noah The difficulty is not merely that one man would need to have a large number of that there are many more alleles than can exist in two human genomes as we know Of if we posit miraculous intervention anything is but God performs miracles for the sake of producing not because nature up to the As I science can without giving a judgment as to the current in fact show that the human population was always greater than or that bestiality And if by generation you mean sexual it is not true that we know that original sin is propagated in this that is to go beyond what the sources of revelation tell As far as Adam and Eve if God intended there to be more than two humans seem necessary to else why create a sexual and if genetic diversity is a absolutely speaking and necessary for the of the human then it seems that one could argue that the hominid theory is impossible because it would require that God would will an evil as necessary for the good of the human And lapsarianism seem to matter on the hypothesis of no genetic diversity would still be a good that could not be achieved from two first parents reproducing in the normal It seems that it is appropriate for Adam Eve to have unusual reproductive characteristics precisely because they are the parents of the whole it might not even be a strictly but something more like a grace attaching to a particular my claim is that they were created with reproductive cells that were genetically diverse from each so the normal paternity tests would indicate that one of their say their Creation is already so I think this really involves an unusual very like contention that Adam had the intelligible forms of every species in his possible intellect or the various other praeternatural If we do not see it occur in the modern physical world it is safe to assume it occur then God need to work through miracles when he has all the time in his creation acting like you see a reason that Christians should engage seriously with the Genesis account Every time a person is something happens that exceeds the whole order of what positing is a relatively minor adjustment that has the advantage of not requiring bestiality to be necessary for the good of the human race and upholding the traditional interpretation of the first Those are some mighty good reasons to think something like what I even if they completely decide the  Michael Bolin how can one thing first original be stated so clearly in the catechism only for you to call it an It is one thing to say that a story in scripture literal even I hesitate to run to that as a first course of but to say that the catechism is speaking symbolically seems to be more not to mention that the traditional interpretation of the first is vital for maintaining the truth of pretty much all of  And I like the CCC quotes for the particular priest I am addressing from Monday class because he like Only JPII sources CCC must be one of  St Paul seems to be the source quote for the CCC quotations the Quid est Catechism of the Catholic Church  Catechism of the Catholic Church are lucky Scott here to witness that momentary  promulgated sometime around  just prove his point about TACers and doctrine It was in so Scott would have no idea what I  snort I wonder what Scott thinks about since not a walking confirmation of his point about TACers and doctrine  interesting Oh my someone He seems not to have noticed Keeps calling me a model of Catholic motherhood and so forth  Can we do a study on  bah maybe you just when apologizing for calling me other but  He  Cite the article where he did that Not he just denied saying some insulting stuff that he definitely and then said some other untrue stuff about me being a model of Catholic womanhood to smooth things Dear Elliot when did you  Do you know Samuel gosh I hope Sam follow this I think I knew I graduated from the College in no He did just convert to the I let get back to Genesis I have to read Lilith for book the book of genesis is a bit like the book of We really know what is literal or how it is It is one of those great mysteries where we find out when we get to the final at the same time it is a point of dogma that original sin is transmitted from like you how this is to we know But the safe bet is to start with the world around us and study how it how we exist and learn from the signs left in and on the earth of what happened before If the earth is by design then it should work by design everything a part of a slowly moving argument Shhhhhh why always maintained that the study of math and science could be a holy I dislike the idea that theology necessitates canceling Rather than perfects Fair I think anyone wants to cancel depends on what you call I agree one of the reasons the big bang theory was first postulated by a Catholic religious and endorsed as theologically sound by a pope Anyone that denies evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis is an a pretty stupid thing to I think anyone here is advocating Scotegrine deny Or belief in evolution was one of his accusations against But properly tell us about singulars except insofar as they come under a where is I sincerely hope he is with And anyone who denies in the modern is the inductive process by which the effectiveness of is proved again and again Still give us nope it is the process of induction whereby individuals become universals in the form of I have we are at house with George Just making sure you still had him do you agree that modern scientific inquiry into the world around us is a more accurate rendition of reality than a few chapters in yes and no  I know people who deny evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis who are not a lot to reply to so I will select the most significant to intention of various created goods is always since God need not create anything at And there are many goods that he wills that imply the existence of though in no case does it imply that God wills evil as only that he wills goods which cannot be unless certain evils also This is neither impossible nor even but true in the case of every evil Every time a sin is there is some good willed by God that would not come to be unless the sin were which is why God permits the moral evil as The classic example is of course the which could not be without the fall the felix Regarding Adam and there are two things to The first is that if they possessed reproductive cells that were not produced by the normal this would surely be a miracle in any usual sense of the just as their possession of the preternatural gifts The claim that is already is only pertinent if you assume in advance that Adam and Eve were created ex The creation ex nihilo or divine modification of reproductive which are physical entities in their own is not a minor adjustment but a The creation of the human soul ex on the other is not miraculous but fully in accord with even though it is produced by The first activities of matter are from God because nature only acts in virtue of the divine and that appropriately formed matter should be a substance of the appropriate and therefore possess the corresponding substantial is a first activity of matter and therefore as natural as anything can The second point is that even this postulated miracle would not fully explain the observed since it would not explain why the additional alleles found in Adam and reproductive cells so closely parallel those found in the animal species most closely related to whereas this fact is perfectly explained by those alleles originating in a population that was a common ancestor of man and these other why would it be a virtue of an account that it would not imply that early men interbred with along with every other is precisely the kind of thing that fallen human beings upholding the traditional interpretation is a merit when all other things are but if the contrary evidence is sufficiently strong it is no longer an since we should not hold positions that reason makes to engage seriously with the Genesis account does not mean to read it as signifying what it was not written to or to assume that we know in precisely what way it pertains to And to interpret Genesis correctly we need to engage seriously with the modern scientific account depends on original sin being found in not on the details of its origin or the Catechism uses This does not imply any specific interpretation of that The Catechism is presenting the not developing and so it uses the language appropriate to the current state of understanding of the This does not require any special intention on the part of the authors of the Catechism to speak but only to use the language of Because the Scripture is the inspired Word of so whatever it when understood must be said to be But by definition I defined them as That is but they are Michael that was a text dump of Kenzian proportions whatever the right interpretation of Genesis it will be a picture of Ignorant of evolutionary But so am and so are most of Michael I agree with your paragraph addressed to except this part account depends on original sin being found in not on the details of its origin or Michael my argument was that God create fallen so as there had to be a way for man to achieve the good of genetic diversity that involve either or deny that it such diversity is part of the human race as such and only good for it under a certain It matters that sin came to all through first as through Adam came so through Christ came life is very it seems to one one first second point is that even this postulated miracle would not fully explain the observed since it would not explain why the additional alleles found in Adam and reproductive cells so closely parallel those found in the animal species most closely related to whereas this fact is perfectly explained by those alleles originating in a population that was a common ancestor of man and these other This is there is certainly a very limited range of DNA sequences that are required if we are to have the proximate matter of a Any DNA sequence in that range will be a DNA sequence that species closely related to Especially if the body of Adam were formed via and in case anyone that was I but why does the specific mode of propagation From the very beginning God intended an end for namely union with him in the community of the blessed community that will ultimately that implied The Incarnation was not Plan B but the plan all have to think about but something that just seems wrong to me with that claim that I put my finger your brother Joseph had an uncanny ability to insert precision as you Well you know Catholics read the I want to say that the actual elect God knows by foreknowledge but not necessarily that he wills that because that would seem to involve him willing But I yet see how to formulate my view in a satisfactory Most of us have read it at least I actually wrote my dissertation on that topic causality and But linking that might be too Pater A life of believing one thing to be changed late in life is always FULL CIRCLE Circle of Will The Circle Be Unbroken June Carter Cash Old school religion classic written in our time DNA sequence in that range will be a DNA sequence that species closely related to Especially if the body of Adam were formed via this The claim here about the general genetic similarities but about specific alleles that need not exist at For the human race would exist just fine even if the specific allele for blood type B found in any human or in any of the related And the formation of body via evolution help if talking specifically about the hypothesis that Adam and Eve had reproductive cells not formed in the natural containing genetic information that was not found in their somatic So there is no necessity that the genetic information in question exist at much less that it match up in man and the other And I have never seen an explanation for this fact other than pure chance with no sense of how improbable this would or God just made it that way and we understand Needless to I find the latter two highly The Lion King The Circle Of Life A song from The Lion  In there seems to be here an unwarranted distrust of the scientific method and the scientific and a corresponding belief that revelation possesses a degree of clarity and precision that exceeds what it actually whereby revelation is a kind of secret esoteric gnosis that frees us from the hard work and often humbling task of discovering the details of our world and history by painstaking investigation of material But science does have much to teach us about these and even about philosophical questions like the generation of I think we should take more seriously what John Paul II said about am more and more convinced that scientific which is itself a participation in divine can help philosophy and theology to understand ever more fully the human person and Revelation about a Revelation that is completed and perfected in Jesus Well that may be true of some not my intent at In regards to Let us realize this mans father was a I wonder why he has the views he But he is the complete opposite of As said ultimately I want to have an account of the sense of the text ad litteram in sense that can be said to be I worry about scientistic presuppositions clouding the view of the I am open to a significant portion of the text being figurative Thing the official position of the church still seems to be that all descended from Adam probably unless one has special good to accept such a teaching as In evidence of this is everything from the Canons of Trent to the condemnation of Teilhard de Chardin to Humani not to mention the complete lack of a account of the transmission of original it makes any my position is all put praeiudicio meliori as Albert would I wish I could assure you that I have a warranted distrust of the scientific As to the scientific method or I am aware of its limits and of the forgetfulness of its practitioners of the arts This is to say nothing of the relation of mathematics to such  Just wondering would it be enough to have original pair created directly by God and they Then any other new humans created directly by God and Eve are now also fallen account of the original sin but not through human generation but because the material is flawed in the fallen That would get you one original sin is more important than original  Just as preparation for the incarnation through the Immaculate Conception preserved her to be free from sin even in her  I put that out but I really incline more toward a literal interpretation of rather be found wanting on account of my simplicity than incorrect by means of my proud intellect when I come before the Throne of I understand your desire for childlike but when given the education tools to understand more fully you no longer get the ignorance The Big Bang Is Hard It Is Also a Creation Issue Big Bangs Are familiar with the character of Holofernes in Labors Just I shouId cIarify that my father caIIed himseIf a spoke Iike pissed of my conservative grandfather Iike but in every was exceedingIy So when he got super upset that I started to disagree with him and said know where you get these crazy I said you raised me to be He was not a happy This is part of the extreme dichotomy between how peopIe often see themseIve and how they actuaIIy For Ieftists and rightwingers who cIaim to be dovoted to the great Iibertarian Jeff Neill that denies evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis is an This wouId strongIy suggest that nothing in the BibIe shouId be taken since if that part is not actuaIIy then it casts down on every other I see this is as the Iong term probIem for is the unresoIvabiIity of the two The whole bible is not like From the eArly It was stated that the bible is mix of literal and figurative language and genesis is on the figurative Just as Christ taught in Isak Not true Assman I have been toId that aII parts of the BibIe are factuaI and Very Christian of you Sweet I object to the statement that monogenism is the better opinion at this point in all things I only object to claiming that it is established or to decking it out with additional speculative hypotheses that are designed to force the empirical data into conforming to preferred I think it would be better simply to say that perhaps we know how to comfortably fit the two which is a perfectly respectable opinion I do think the interbreeding hypothesis is eminently I like the aspect of the though again I think perfectly fine to just say that we know everything rather we know very much at about the details of the historical origins of As for the other I think the temptation to pride can go both know people was in a similar camp myself for a long who object to evolution on the grounds that God want the Church to learn anything from  Omg did not mean Assman laughing so hard John The Catholic position is that everything asserted in Scripture is When Catholics least those on this speak of Genesis not being necessarily they do not mean that it asserts things that are not but that in order to determine what it one needs to read it according to its which is close to that of ancient Myth here does not mean false but a way of telling stories that may be This does not mean that other parts of Scripture are in the same for tells us quite plainly what his genre namely that of And so his gospel is to be read as generally but not claiming that quotations are verbatim or that the order is precisely is why I avoid words like for Aquinas and Augustine the presumes that the figures of speech have already been the often seems to preclude such In whatever the of the text that sense must be There are also further senses of the text which happen because the things signified by the text are themselves signs of other for the rock that gave forth water and followed the Israelites in the desert was itself a sign of as Paul tells This thread long enough The BibIe truIy makes sense when it is assumed that these were spirituaI men trying to expIain the unexpIainabIe and create a tempIate for moraI rather than the dictated word of to what objective measure are you making that See Translation You guys are all a bunch of Stop looking look Come with us mystics to the Platonic realms and glimpse the true ineffable TNETness Adam Read your  Henry Miller on creative death and the art of the the mighty TNET sleeps  Are we posting photos  I suspect the bit at the end about the catholic academics who were bashing Thomis may well have been TAC not sure where Michael claim that we are on tNET came It seems to me that the order of knowing in any account of Genesis is different from the order of knowing in I seen a young a or anyone arguing for crystalline spheres no one come entertain I guess just pretend to without West coast waking Is it Tnet Jody seems to be on the side desiring literal interpretation and claiming to avoid a proud However these views and teachings will not help convert the modern agnostic proclaimed since they all like to claim literal interpretation is denying what we already know about the especially when one considers the effectiveness of mathematics in It is why people like NTdG drive me They say that science is science and philosophy is but they account for their nor the reason why their method should be so He belongs at a TED Where everything is explained s l o w l y w I t h A d o u b l S e r v I n g o f w o n d e r W H O A B I G I D E A San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane CAMERONWU What do we We must distinguish between theories that are in need of constant revision and the repeatable observations that are the evidence of That and what the real role of mathematics is both in the theories and in making I see a lot of confusion For once I agree with John Mathematics is just a You set up the rules and not Mathematics is Mathematics is measuring lines and lines are Lines are only concepts of the all a Numbers are To quote Mad Molly are just what else do you want them to The feathers get in the Molly like I like that a  If numbers are base Where did Michael Bolin claim that we are on I thought he was just saying that by we mean something like which I agree Maybe I scroll up far If Mathematics then you Not mathematics Few things irritate me more than Christians jumping over each other to call young earthers idiots and emphasize how they If reality is a concept of the then lines are concepts of the Which makes them If reality is not a concept of the then lines are not concepts of the mind but that which stops everything from oozing into everything Which still makes them Lines are Lines are How not a just a nominal description of a thing that invented in my But they are Young earthing is stupid The young earth theory is pretty look how I am I never said reality is a concept of the self  Isak I think you understand the difference between existence and nominal So mathematics is just a construct for you If nominal existence made things then unicorns are really Ever read one of those layers in the strata were made during flood I saying what you just saying what would have to be true for your idea that lines are concepts of the mind to be I know not a For one shapes are harder to consider I It seems to be a different question as to whether lines exist in the world or certain shapes composed of those That is true I was talking about my The question is whether Mathematicals are only nominally It tied the room all get Platonic and shit its whether a game or I think you assume a lot about what I know and Numbers are nominally just Come real numbers or imaginary you really interested in discussing the reality of I am What about the reality of transfinite Of course I understand the difference between nominal existence and Why are you being a a Cantor his Migratory numbers change with the No one is a Hey listen to that infinitesimal warbling Some people are just afraid of Do you mean that literally or just Christians of all stripes have the unfortunate tendency not to identify with one a but not kind of Those guys are  Exactly Figuratively Are you saying not one of Christians that have that  Just coming out from underneath the bridge to pad Loving it never catch me Booty I totally do But I am a in either way Daniel I think that should be the tagline for the inevitable Hollywood adaptation of TNET into a movie one is a so as to their division and Whatever not a ask mad Molly G afraid of Study finds some genetic factors A new study of math anxiety shows how some Discreet and of further abstractions from the act of counting  Transcendental numbers are not nominally but not exactly either pi is a ratio Seriously if lines exist in res then nothing could have a shape of any I would sink into the my laptop would merge with this would get Lines exist as the borders between Look everyone I can use Latin phrases but the borders are damn fuzzy on the planck scale And in never been All lines are But we see the straight and the curved in We see line and surface and Yes indeed we Mmmmmmmm A point is that which has no  Hey Can we talk about argument for the existence of God and why perfect and beautiful AS WELL AS the best demonstration anyone has come up How is it that without line notional my matter would fall there is no such thing as continuous outside of the it is an abstraction from the discreet that was thesis when I was a poor if then that would be which would have been a freshman my senior which Morgan I your class just glad no one posted Are you  Yankovic Word Crimes new album out now on stomach doing so just graze it a I regret any of the noogies I gave you I want to say Eric Could be though totally serious about the ontological proof you guys might have been my sophomore year My class was bound by our hatred of the upperclassmen when we were get too mostly  I really wish the math talk get I had many a conversation with James Chastek about this actual They beat up Pater Edmund the jerks Anselm for president  Computer programming freed us from numbers If there were no such thing as continuous then then all potential divisions in a given quantity are and since quantity is infinitely then all quantity contains an actual Oh paradox is just trying to the math conversation I helped Computer gaming freed us from responsibility Isak Benedict you really serious about the ontological But How do you traverse the across the the actuality of potential as no Big  But I was responding to Michael Beitia who was denying continuous quantity and who CLAIMED he wanted to talk about the infinite divisibility of the continuous is why paradox is Sean Collins could say more on if he so I could go back to complaining about if Speaking of I could tell you about how infinitely cool Peyton Manning And why he is the best QB in the and probably the history of the I would agree with you that you are using the word in its precisely correct also How do you traverse the The Limits are never they are only Or supposed Or just like infinite divisibility is not you get to a certain and your lab goes up in a mushroom quantity be infinitely divisible insofar as it is It has to be abstracted from the thing that quantity may infinitely but stuff insofar as it infinitely it is abstracted and notional  that seems like a good actually opinionated about Only rednecks say Not a but why rednecks be on No educated person should EVER say that this is really because not opinionated about  I hate that Right up there with just your man That some sort of eastern this aggression will not man I am super opinionated about and slightly offended that this has been derailed mark it dude not my fault your friend has a problem with my regional dialect  everybody from before my time is your friend we used to car pool to and from be he always made me Only when there were ships sailing across the Nevada I love the word Out with both welps and Zefiro torna Rial Jaroussky Claudio Monteverdi Nuria Rial Philippe Jaroussky are so adorbs Is bitch  unless talking about female The above is just because I have time today to read but still felt I should do something to make tNET nicer than I found low to be things irritate me more than Christians jumping over each other to call young earthers idiots and emphasize how they This has nothing to do with external appearances or wanting Myers to think It has to do with the fact that Christians who propound such ideas in the a greater threat to Christianity than the atheists who think that science disproves Augustine said it most eloquently in the famous it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a presumably giving the meaning of Holy talking nonsense on these and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such to the great loss of those for whose salvation we the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the the hope of eternal and the kingdom of when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of not as easy as just all just stick Ideas like YEC threaten and DEFINITELY not ok to call Queen what you have Save you it Poor His taking Genesis literally is a threat to thank God years later people would come along who could correct Him on these matters Erik thanks for reminding me about turned out to be just the word I needed for a poem Feil Ducking back in to say that the New Yorker has a review of in this I stopped reading it because they were giving away too much of the but it seemed very Michael Nobody here has defended I not saying that a certain kind of mindset among a certain subset of Christians there are reasons other than idiocy that people want to take Genesis more much literally than you seem to there is a big difference between arguing against an as you have been and dismissing all the people who hold that as others cough And Christians should stick That was definitely Jehoshaphat What NT quotes are you thinking know they are Christians by their glue Matthew as far as talking animals what about that seems much harder to deny the historicity since right in the middle of a historical Paul Keating tells a story in which someone is talking to a trad of some and to the surprise this person asserts that I believe women should have the right of Trad you probably believe in I think women should have rights because I think anyone has only duties others owe Christians should stick at all under the authority of the successor of And Balaam rose up in the and saddled his and went with the princes of And anger was kindled because he and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against Now he was riding upon his and his two servants were with And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the and his sword drawn in his and the ass turned aside out of the and went into the and Balaam smote the to turn her into the But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the a wall being on this and a wall on that And when the ass saw the angel of the she thrust herself unto the and crushed foot against the and he smote her And the angel of the Lord went and stood in a narrow where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the And when the ass saw the angel of the she fell down under and anger was and he smote the ass with a And the Lord opened the mouth of the and she said unto What have I done unto that thou hast smitten me these three And Balaam said unto the Because thou hast mocked I would there were a sword in mine for now would I kill And the ass said unto Am not I thine upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this was I ever wont to do so unto and he Then the Lord opened the eyes of and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the and his sword drawn in his and he bowed down his and fell flat on his And the angel of the Lord said unto Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three I went out to withstand because thy way is perverse before And the ass saw and turned from me these three unless she had turned from surely now also I had slain and saved her And Balaam said unto the angel of the I have for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against now if it displease I will get me back And the angel of the Lord said unto Go with the but only the word that I shall speak unto that thou shalt So Balaam went with the princes of Edward Langley Rights ARE duties owed by Yes and No Depends on using the word In what way And owed to I think for holds that they are some kind of quality Well always the But I could say that about Most people have a definition for what they mean when they say rights beyond at the very some intrinsic perfection of a Hobbes seems to think that Luke Mark And are you going to try say that He Or It would be very curious were Jesus and Paul to have been in possession of is true gnosis without the early Fathers having any inkling of it Hobbes is a as we all Balaam proves my I the Lord opened the mouth of the so right there we have a miracle or direct divine Because the premise is that asses donkeys at least but not like the serpent in the garden spoke of its own accord are you saying demons can perform the mere fact that there was a talking animal a reason to doubt the veracity of the story as a Angels can affect bodies Edward you there was no a mythos which truly expresses the human I see why God have permitted Satan to possess the snake and then move the air in front of the mouth in such a way as to produce After devils can possess not made clear in the now is Why is clarity important talking to me insanely In what doing right now is what Augustine tells us to interpreting obscure passages by distinct Sometimes I wish philosophers would leave theology to talking to The fact is you have no idea who the serpent is from the That is not made clear animals sometimes talk under supernatural demons can possess animals Legion and the In from the text it appears that the that is a is the craftiest of all the Sometimes I wish theologians would think so philosophers have to think for them Daniel you know enough then your argument is based on a double affirmative in the second and does not conclude with  I am in a school of not trying to prove but to show possibility Is Paradiso a As to what Jehoshaphat Escalante is just silly which often works both ways in these What Christ says in those NT passages refute or contradict anything anyone has said Male and female they were created and people were partying like in the days of Paradiso revealed according to PereScott not going to a school of Not what I Matthew are you saying He invoking those cases as Erik just gave a strong argument from authority that the Paradiso is a  Big I understand why you ask about historical means different things throughout I am trying to clarify the flood came and killed them just using that old fairy tale for sermon illustration calm Jehoshaphat of course they are invoked as But no one here would deny I know where this stuff came by the  so Jesus invokes them as but you think He was wrong about Mike Grimm start it freshman you were named for your I why on the but affectionately  and the ancients knew the difference between history and fable Daniel totally serious about the ontological just busy teaching Will respond later It first came up during the initial NFP thing  But that mean that they thought about the way history should be written the way we History most of Genesis least from Abraham everybody who talks about history stuff that actually Probably from Seth not that complicated a term keep going Edward almost So the best other example of ancient history is He write like a modern scholar so Jehoshaphat trying to reach common  Jeff seems to be on the side desiring literal interpretation and claiming to avoid a proud However these views and teachings will not help convert the modern agnostic proclaimed since they all like to claim literal interpretation is denying what we already know about the I am far from And I believe above all that there is one truth divine and They will not turn out to But I trust the divine truth is able to be known with more certainty of the Catholic My real conclusion about science is that it always what it claims to know but people are quick to claim it as There are a lot of holes in the evolutionary theory the word It may be able to explain the mechanics of the but it even do that are the other newly emerging humans who born of human why did this process How does it account for the ontological Science can be found to be circular and support itself based on false assumptions proving the age of things by carbon dating can be wrong based on the assumptions made Although the Church says we MAY consider the mechanics of evolution as a possibility it has NOT said that we MUST accept How quickly and recently we have gone from being a Church who believed above all in being created by God to now condemning the faithful who say they believe in the story of How did that People here seem to have doubts about the historicity of Look at the they narrate events that actually are historically But not the way we think of history Events were narrated in different or with different with little to no attention to chronology in order to teach  Noah is modern scholarship divided from ancient history by a specific difference of treating actually but rather in the how documentary I think Adam was Noah is the same problem as Adam and genetically Mike Grimm is the efficient cause of our class having so many  Noah had more problem ancients and moderns both meant actually by  Edward how are you related to other if someone where trying to narrate a history about something that transcends normal human what would they How would they But only nicknames for the interestingly Depends which I was in class of my sister and a cousin was in  Mike But in any this is quibbling about The examples from the NT brought up have no bearing on what anyone has brought up thus No would deny the meaning is But if Genesis is simply a historical a pretty crappy Those are my  Ah if someone where trying to narrate a history about something that transcends normal human what would they How would they Genesis tells what it needs to tell   I think Genesis is a beautiful account and full of many deep truths unclear to me what people here are thinking about Suppose I say that Israel recapitulates thus the enemy of Israel is used to represent the enemy of The enemy of Israel is and the serpent is the symbol of the Canaanite fertility the serpent is used to represent the enemy of Is this But it is a shoddy historical account if that is all it Purely historical accounts usually full of deep How is this to be if not When Adam had lived he had a son in his own in his own and he named him After Seth was Adam lived years and had other sons and Adam lived a total of and then he When Seth had lived he became the of After he became the father of Seth lived years and had other sons and Seth lived a total of and then he When Enosh had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Enosh lived years and had other sons and Enosh lived a total of and then he When Kenan had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Kenan lived years and had other sons and Kenan lived a total of and then he When Mahalalel had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Mahalalel lived years and had other sons and Mahalalel lived a total of and then he When Jared had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Jared lived years and had other sons and Jared lived a total of and then he When Enoch had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Enoch walked faithfully with God years and had other sons and Enoch lived a total of Enoch walked faithfully with then he was no because God took him When Methuselah had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Methuselah lived years and had other sons and Methuselah lived a total of and then he When Lamech had lived he had a He named him and will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has After Noah was Lamech lived years and had other sons and Lamech lived a total of and then he After Noah was years he became the father of Ham and is the by way of by an object which exceeds our or by way of being unusual for our And good history purely Like I contend that the genesis account is trying to narrate events that transcend the bounds of normal human when Moses wrote about he wrote in figure to describe an epic historical accounts usually full of deep the difference between human history and divinely inspired vide my question above its an important distinction Which by would be more than history simply Edward  Maybe I say it can only be the latter not the former What is the mythical significance of the genealogy of everyone between Adam and Or do we all agree that just historical I think when Genesis talks about walking in the Garden with God it is talking about an object that exceeds our  I God in Himself but the theophany was an experience of sense  what the text says I want to know how a genealogy can be if the people actually related as it can be for I imagine the creation account of the Days PURE opaque I Read the first chapter of Genesis as pure history and try to make sense of In there is a sense in which we have a very different understanding of history There is something more honest about the ancient which mixes in and and tells stories for the sake of revealing what happened with As in point here holds whether or not generations are elided George Washington begat Samuel first when Sam Adams was he begat Abraham Lincoln who started the War of Northern Aggression and oppressed the  I prefer math So long as the original audience would understand in that ok a false history There is no way Gen can be read as pure It is apparent that something else is going on The Gospel of Matthew clearly skips and elides Meanwhile Peterson is giving God a shit review on Goodreads But it is a true Could a generation have been skipped When Kenan had lived he became the father of After he became the father of Kenan lived years and had other sons and Kenan lived a total of and then he Can that be true if Mahaliel was actually  I give it the best Because it is more than pure It is only on this tiresome and simplistic historical account claim that it is a shit Matthew I just want to know when Genesis starts becoming a But everyone before like took it in the and you know Were they all just suckers for bad Daniel I see Post we refer to grandfathers as But on that explain to me what the hell this literal history means when it plainly contradicts itself in multiple Or do you acknowledge that it plainly does so as regards the various accounts of light created before the What does it mean that the waters are separated to make way for the heavens before there is Augustine makes this I Tell me what the obvious literal historical meaning of it I beg I actually dont think it contradicts no do you acknowledge that it plainly does so as regards the various accounts of light created before the pretty sure there was light before our on any But just reiterating a point I made a long time I but because I hold the absurd view that it is simply literal and historical in the modern senses of those and you dont mean you mean contradicts modern science pretty clear to me that at least one of the creation accounts gives a I MEAN IT IS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE ON ITS OWN TERMS AS LITERAL HISTORY are you then how did the Church take it that way for and physical science must be interpreted so as to fit Sacred Scripture and the word of Sacred Scripture must not on the contrary be twisted to fit the judgements of the Reading Genesis There is a belief among even faithful Catholics that the first chapter of the Bible should be taken with thank the cavalry has Explain what this EVERYONE on TELL ME WHAT THIS LITERALLY AND And God Let there be a firmament in the midst of the and let it divide the waters from the And God made the and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the and it was And God called the firmament THERE IS NO LAND THAT IS STILL TO not sure I understand the myth vs history Is this what people are Hesiod myth Homer history our planet had a ring of water around it that was let out in the Great Weiss The myth history distinction clear for a long I look at at least slightly please tell me you actually believe It God divided cosmic water exists and made that division somehow canopic to the future land Weiss the cosmos is a I was being slightly true too Cosmic That sounds awful modern and to a good hypothesis for explaining where all the water for the flood came Earth has water older than the Sun Not all water in the Solar System today could have formed researchers doesnt need to me awful modern and I need modern science to make sense the claim but I will leave you all to your quandaries and wish the best to my Cistercian comrade in the I so Genesis is speaking of water already present in the solar nebula from which the earth As I define a myth is an account of a reality that is someway transcends human typically as an attempt to explain perennial truths about the world and the water the just be the water in the such as I think I now understand better why the myth that the Catholic Church is I How would we figure that Edward Matthew objection is hardly Multi enim asserunt istarum aquarum naturam super sidereum coelum esse non quod sic habeant ordinatum pondus ut vel super terras vel in aere terris proximo vaporaliter Neque quisquam istos debet ita ut dicat secundum omnipotentiam cui cuncta possibilia oportere nos aquas etiam tam quam novimus atque coelesti in quo sunt Nunc enim quemadmodum Deus instituerit naturas secundum Scripturas eius nos convenit non quid in eis vel ex eis ad miraculum potentiae suae velit Neque enim si vellet Deus sub aqua oleum aliquando non non ex eo tamen olei natura nobis esset quod ita facta ut appetendo suum etiam si subterfusa perrumpat eisque se superpositam Nunc ergo quaerimus utrum conditor qui omnia in mensura et numero et pondere disposuit non unum locum proprium ponderi aquarum circa terram sed et super coelum quod ultra limitem aeris circumfusum atque solidatum When on high the heaven had not been from an interpretation of Firm ground below had not been called by As modern or as literal meaning in the modern it answer a whole hell of a lot of exactly what we usually expect those words to But the question that Edward Langley asks and the sudden turn to science on the part of Jehoshaphat Escalante prove my When primodial their and she who bore them their waters mingled as a single I turn to The account is intelligible on its I mentioned modern findings because those are your measure here Of my objection although our science does increasingly make the questions more But anyone with a brain would have both objections or questions concerning the issue of the two lights and the water and land for thousands of unless they read it in a different way than the modern sense of and would have us read of her he set up as a covering for Pulled down the bar a posted He bade them allow not her waters to Modern findings are not my And now must be On any the light hard to EnLIGHTen I do not think it is easy to understand what that just begging the question to presume that it refers the the light of the body we call the the Big for probably created a whole ton of Either historically or Augustine say that the first light was the creation of the Which makes because an intellect is often referred to as a light both in and out of the Bible it is interesting that the ancient Babylonians talked about waters above the If one things that Hebrew culture and writings might be influenced by the culture of the people of the city of then it is reasonable to suppose that waters above the heavens simply were an account for how the celestial bodies kept their yet were The point is that the text itself is not a clear literal and you are helping me make forget Daniel you mean  already made the point there are two accounts of In man is in the man is they both be temporal That cast doubt on the an event that only has one account in the Unless you want to say that it casts doubt on the whole of Genesis the whole of whatver part was written by your favorite nameless I think anyone doubts the this text has a religious and theological It contain significant elements from the point of view of the natural Research on the origin and development of the individual species in nature does not find in this description any definitive norm or positive contributions of substantial the theory of natural understood in a sense that does not exclude divine is not in principle opposed to the truth about the creation of the visible as presented in the Book of John Paul General January I just think that there was a lot more than went on that is only conveyed in largely image based text that attempts to explain something that is beyond our normal We actually do get a dogma from that initial principio seems to clearly indicate that there was a beginning of Yes to the beginning of time the Easter the journey along the paths of sacred Scripture begins with the account of This is the way of telling us that the creation story is itself a It is not information about the external processes by which the cosmos and man himself came into The Fathers of the Church were well aware of They did not interpret the story as an account of the process of the origins of but rather as a pointer towards the towards the true beginning and end of our Benedict Homily at the Easter Daniel my point was it cast doubt on the Fall as The shepherds of the Faith have been going on in this vein for some decades Are we going to listen to In I suppose it would strengthen the case that the Fall as related were to be clear that at least one account of creation the Bible has a second account with a different there is not a second account of the so the Bible would seem to intend that as a this prove with but I think fairly strong the fall is literal How was that a logical As I not the Bible just went out of the way to make sure we take something as so it would be odd for the very next thing to be account of the fall in Genesis uses figurative but affirms a primeval a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first CCC a real sin was committed by our first which really affects the whole human and the language is so it probably safe to make assumptions such as that a talking serpent was tactic so far has been to ridicule accounts of Genesis accounts which no one has been in order to cast doubt on the Fall My argument is intended to undercut that by pointing out that the text itself gives us a strong reason to doubt such accounts of without a corresponding reason to doubt the Fall What does it mean to doubt the Fall Is considering the serpent to be a literary image doubting the Here speaking of them as primarily with reference to monogenism By the thanks to everyone for a fascinating But even the I see why the event have played out as at least as far as the senses I would ask if the account of a serpent talking to Eve is what part of the story is I know We might be arguing past each to some because intentionally avoiding commitment to a particular interpretation of the all arguing is that we have sufficient evidence to know that it is So is the assertion that figurative language is used just And why is it a problem to suggest that a tale about a talking snake who is the craftiest of all creatures even taken purely literally or historically by They all say Not in the So if this is pure and literal it means what it The talking snake is the And all this Satan stuff is imported My point is that even if there were a talking the by the bit in the story Never mind these various So poor literal history if the even if it is literal The historical or is not to relay mere history in literal it seems to I think we might understand the term I think the necessity of interpretation or outside knowledge makes a history any less Lincoln was a tyrant literal history Ratzinger the second movement involves the image of the which is taken from the Eastern fertility These fertility religions were severe temptations for Israel for tempting it to abandon the covenant and to enter into the religious milieu of the Through the fertility cults the serpent speaks to the human Do not cling to this distant who has nothing to offer Do not cling to this which is so alien to you and which imposes so many restrictions on Plunge into the current of into its delirium and its and thus you will be able to partake of the reality of life and of its It is with temptation in mind that Holy Scripture portrays temptation in the nature of temptation and sin in every Big Angry Daniel gets to the point of my question about Hesiod the myth on that account describes something that really recurs perennially as something that happened once upon a But according to the CCC text quoted by Michael Bolin above that is what the account of the fall deed that took place at the beginning of the history of something that really happened at a specific time not an feature of the it is in the sense defined by Samantha that actually Hesiod myth features of the world described in a Homer history meant to have happened at a specific For a long time Troy was thought to be fictional by until they dug it Daniel we started calling you Big Angry again when you told someone that you would punch him if he continued his brand of trolling and that you were good at I forgot about  Pater that actually is a decent but seem to me to answer many of the questions at serpent deceived could be a thing that whether there was a talking snake or whether we read it as Ratzinger It seems to me that there is a pretty strong reason to incline to there being some sensible experience associated with the important events relating to salvation always seem to be bound to sensible whether the Sacraments even the if the correct interpretation of that Not to mention the various angels that appealed to Isaac and And it is extremely fitting for that to be sin involves an act of the will requires knowledge and our knowledge begins with the So it would be most fitting for the very first sin to have a particular sensible experience as its that sin is the type of all but Homer is based on an historical event to show sonething A fittingness a very respectable form of Unless you happen to be The image of our lady of Guadalupe is another example of culturally specific Unless you think she actually is crushing Aztec another interesting thing from In the the Genesis story that we are still a further characteristic of sin is Sin is not spoken of in general as an abstract possibility but as a as the sin of a particular who stands at the origin of humankind and with whom the history of sin The account tells us that sin begets and that therefore all the sins of history are Theology refers to this state of affairs by the certainly misleading and imprecise term What does this Nothing seems to us today to be stranger more absurd than to insist upon original according to our way of guilt can only be something very and since God does not run a concentration in which relative are because he is a liberating God of who calls each one by What does original sin when we interpret it an answer to this requires nothing less than trying to understand the human person It must once again be stressed that no human being is closed in upon himself or herself and that no one can live of or for himself or herself We receive our life not only at the moment of birth but every day from others who are not ourselves but who nonetheless somehow pertain to Human beings have their selves not only in themselves but also outside of they live in those whom they love and in those who love them and to whom they are Human beings are and they possess their by way of I alone am not but only in and with you am I To be truly a human being means to be related in to be of and But sin means the damaging or the destruction of Sin is a rejection of relationality because it wants to make the human being a Sin is loss of disturbance of and therefore it is not restricted to the When I destroy a then this the other person involved in the Consequently sin is always an offense that touches that alters the world and damages To the extent that this is when the network of human relationships is damaged from the very then every human being enters into a world that is marked by relational At the very moment that a person begins human which is a he or she is confronted by a Each of us enters into a situation in which relationality has been Consequently each person from the very damaged in relationships and does not engage in them as he or she Sin pursues the human and he or she capitulates to Where rejecting a definite act that is the original sin Benedict became considerably more traditional as He held some iffy opinions I suppose one can always play the but Ratzinger used to be a heretic before becoming I think you read that the same way I can we have a conversation evolve farther than Original sin is inherited from Adam This is This thread has been going for almost two you must have very interesting friends a lot of talk about was he real or I believe the that provoked that response involved a man insulting a woman in crass and vulgar Being the sexist that I think that it is wrong to insult but it is especially wrong to insult especially in the way that was I would have and I would have been just in doing lots of trolls Jonah is a great example of how God can use an imperfect How should we interpret the book of I want to know if he really was swallowed as and miraculous the whale But this is scandalous to modern So only idiots could believe It seems clear that the days in the whale are used to understand the time our Lord spent in the But God can make real events prefigure his future plans Also have you heard about how all of the plagues have scientific  the incarnation is such a well documented from Roman and the and that is clearly an example of God into the history of men good thing we had those fellows on the scene to diagnose the plagues or we would still be we may still be the LITERAL day in to my is not a LITERAL hours I just And I do waaaay too much thinking for myself or Caleb would likely I have idea what you But it is errand running time It would seem that God does not for he is defined as a perfect and the creator of The creation of everything is the greatest achievement and the merit of an achievement is decided both by its intrinsic quality and by the ability of its The greater the disability of the the greater the The greatest conceivable disability for a creator is Therefore if we claim that everything is the creation of an existent we can conceive of a greater that a being that created everything while not Therefore God does not Is there someone here I That is my spurious ontological proof for the of No Edward I was just typing it out bit by Some comment padding perhaps just some of the stuff above looks like there might be a gap to respond to some blocked The only people I see just above me are Michael and Thats all I Has Scott returned since I rode him out on a no Glory glory hallelujah you push Scott He was We need a troll so tNET lose TNET will be That boil needed to be lanced I know why John blocked I even remember him having arguments to run out TNET is sometimes more like a soap opera than we would care to petty people getting written out of pregnancies and amnesia you name it we got it eternal lancing of the Boil is like eternal chasing of the It is never meant to be Scott will be I All desires properly ordered are Meant to be Besides this troll hide is so soft If Scott is a tNET sprang forth from Would tNET then TNET eternal boil pus That would make sense except for tNET shares in the Isak Benedict in that it never So we cannot liken it to pus As I the shift in nuance from Genesis being literal to being allegorical was fairly The spelling of that word is rather important considering we are using the language of forth You once we invented carbon I stop by to look around the and are lancing boils and disinheriting In other nothing has Did you like my proof for In perfect tNET remains Just keeping the place tidy for you Would you care for some troll If you meant I get the but the connections were extremely Thomas Aquinas has elements of allegorical interpretation of his understanding of De potentia ST which he cites Augustine as having similar TNET is the Pure Act of yes God is Everything he does is Man is not God really messed up on So he must not meant to be Obviously it cannot be logically postulated that a disability or a handicap is something that makes a creator greater per And creating something while not existing is not to have a it is to be an make I sometimes think it would be nice to be able to carry a your Obscure Reference Of The Sometimes I think tNET might lag without Then I go away for a and it Good Or have a sense of Maybe life is simply his experiment in What do you think happens when we die have to live with your mind your whole You build your so make it into something you want to live Nobody has ever said anything more valuable to Just played this for my son and it enthralled Dmitri Hvorostovsky Giuseppe Otello aria Credo in un dio crudel December think it was probably the never seen him so interested in Angels differ in since they lack In without bodies how does man I recall what thomastotle according to he order to  But without matter Or what may the whole story is more Just call him until he turns never quite understood where people draw the In my up until people go with months and sometime around then they switch to siblings To much I one month is quite a high fraction of his life Generally folks go by months until somewhere between months the culmination of the extrauterine and months it is weird to say months or at which point they say I only give my ages precisely in lazy jerks Not What a father but only if the company has I intend to be so scrupulous about giving the precise ages of my children that I can never actually do because halfway through the words coming out of my mouth they will have already grown I measure my childs age in of the lunar a clock that you win if you can guess its my children as a fraction of the total age of the measured in Planck In terms of the time it takes for the universe to double in I give my ages only in terms of the of carbon I will give their ages in cubits the primum that is how I tell their and their weight in stones little bit of I think Lee Smolin suggested that the expansion of the universe could be used for the definition of absolute Serious rediscovering primum if dealing with the the ages are in I have that as you and thought the same I have the book but one of my professors sent gave me a scan of part of alright alright enough time for an evening constitutional with the better make TNET to Has tNET read Mental carry George started Literature for come back No so you reading it Joel No not at the I thought you were referring to something  got to finish this Tolstoy biography wait for October Let us be very since I have seen enough bullshit that should send Catholics of yesteryear to Genesis is not as opposed to That is not even how those terms are used in Catholic The literal sense is either proper or metaphorical We are all agreed that metaphors are often used in such in descriptions of God being etc The Church has that the literal sense of Genesis is which means that while metaphor may be included here and there getting over it does properly refer to real events and even if not with scientifically precise I do not deny Daniel point hat things like the order in which events are portrayed may Sure they And is the serpent an actual snake Satan has or is it a metaphor for the person of Satan tempting the very real Eve in the Could be But could the garden be a metaphor for and Adam and Eve a metaphor of a larger and the fall a metaphor of something That is I reject that with the Bolin wants to claim that in principle science can contradict the I want to claim science in principle cannot even show whether polygenism or monogenism is true with regard to truly human John Paul II said as much as But we are a to young If science could prove in it would prove This is no different than arguing whether science can show the world had a beginning in If you argue there is a possibility of it showing the world well you are the enemy of young souls I severely dislike calling any of the real history a But I understand Daniel Lendman is not opposing myth to true So bracket at what point does holding that Genesis relays real history get turned into means anything that conveys some rather than acttual For a bunch of people who claim to be followers of I am The very historicity of the persons and evens is central to his understanding of to the point that even where there is legitimate debate whether Job was a real Aquinas always sides with granting scripture to be a true historical unless it can be proved Even while adopting aspects of Augustines treatment of the he still prefers a distinction of actual days the way scripture relates things I extremely Holy Aquinas rejects a theory on how they are that would make his answer easier and readily consonant with his views in squarely because scripture speak that I frankly find some of what is insinuated here to be pernicious in the etreme And for the sake of our Christendom brethren and their love of symbolic some binding decisions of Holy Mother the Dubium Utrum varia systemata quae ad excludendum sensum litteralem historicum trium priorum capitum libri Geneseos excogitata et scientiae fuco propugnata solido fundamento Dubium non obstantibus indole et forma historica libri peculiari trium priorum capitum inter se et cum sequentibus capitibus multiplici testimonio Scripturarum tum Veteris tum Novi unanimi fere sanctorum Patrum sententia ac traditionali ab Israelitico etiam populo semper tenuit doceri praedicta tria capita Geneseos continere non rerum vere gestarum quae scilicet obiectivae realitati et historicae veritati sed vel fabulosa ex veterum populorum mythologiis et cosmogoniis deprompta et ab auctore expurgato quovis polytheismi doctrinae monotheisticae vel allegorias et fundamento obiectivae realitatis sub historiae specie ad religiosas et philosophicas veritates inculcandas vel tandem legendas ex parte historicas et ex parte fictitias ad animorum instructionem et aedificationem libere Negative ad utramque Dubium Utrum speciatim sensus litteralis historicus vocari in dubium ubi agitur de factis in eisdem capitibus quae christianae religionis fundamenta uti inter rerum universarum creatio a Deo facta in initio peculiaris creatio hominis formatio primae mulieris ex primo generis humani originalis protoparentum felicitas in statu integritatis et praeceptum a Deo homini datum ad eius obedientiam divini diabolo sub serpentis specie protoparentum deiectio ab illo primaevo innocentiae nec non Reparatoris futuri Dubium Utrum in interpretandis illis horum capitum quos Patres et Doctores diverso modo quin certi quippiam definitique liceat salvo Ecclesiae iudicio servataque fidei quam quisque prudenter sequi tuerique Dubium Utrum omnia et verba videlicet et quae in praedictis capitibus semper et necessario accipienda sint sensu ita ut ab eo discedere numquam etiam cum locutiones ipsae manifesto appareant seu metaphorice vel anthropomorphice et sensum proprium vel ratio tenere prohibeat vel necessitas cogat Dubium praesupposito litterali et historico nonnullorum locorum eorundem capitum interpretatio allegorica et praefulgente sanctorum Patrum et Ecclesiae ipsius adhiberi sapienter et utiliter Dubium cum in conscribendo primo Geneseos capite non fuerit sacri auctoris mens intimam adspectabilium rerum constitutionem ordinemque creationis completum scientifico more sed potius suae genti tradere notitiam prout communis sermo per ea ferebat sensibus et captui hominum sit in horum interpretatione adamussim semperque investiganda scientifici sermonis Dubium Utrum in illa sex dierum denominatione atque de quibus in Geneseos capite sumi possit vox Yôm sive sensu proprio pro die sive sensu improprio pro quodam temporis deque huiusmodi quaestione libere inter exegetas disceptare There goes it being myth Biblical when it was still magisterial June Similar answer about the eleven I think I have to digest what just And translate some Latin text dumps are the I will post the English For John Boyer there is question of another conjectural namely the children of the Church by no means enjoy such For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of or that Adam represents a certain number of first Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his Cum vero de alia coniecturali opinione videlicet de quem tum Ecclesiae filii eiusmodi libertate minime Non enim christifideles eam sententiam amplecti quam qui retinent asseverant vel post Adam hisce in terris veros homines qui non ab eodem prouti omnium naturali generatione originem vel Adam significare multitudinem quamdam cum nequaquam appareat quomodo huiusmodi sententia componi queat cum iis quae fontes revelatae veritatis et acta Magisterii Ecclesiae proponunt de peccato originali quod procedit ex peccato vere commisso ab uno quodque generatione in omnes inest unicuique proprium that the pope is not merely saying is hard to see how original sin reconciles with He is saying that it is our faith that one existed and sinned and propagated through generation original and how can polygenism be reconciled with that historical If you deny you are a mind said we know how original sin is That is not And either he knows or he is wonderfully incompetent Some of the Canons cited by the Holy Father If any one does not confess that the first when he had transgressed the commandment of God in immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been and that he through the offence of that the wrath and indignation of and consequently with which God had previously threatened together with captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of that is to the and that the entire through that offence of was in body and for the let him be If any one that the prevarication of Adam injured himself and not his and that the holiness and received of which he he lost for himself and not for us or that being defiled by the sin of has only transfused and pains of the into the whole human but not sin which is the death of the let him be he contradicts the apostle who By one man sin entered into the and by sin and so death passed upon all in whom all have So there was an individual Adam and he sinned and through generation we all sin in Which unless he was truly head of the human race makes no Question Whether the various exegetical systems which have been proposed to exclude the literal historical sense of the three first chapters of the Book of and have been defended by the pretense of are sustained by a solid In the Question when the nature and historical form of the Book of Genesis does not because of the peculiar connections of the three first chapters with each other and with the following because of the manifold testimony of the Old and New because of the almost unanimous opinion of the Holy and because of the traditional sense transmitted from the Israelite the Church always it can be taught that the three aforesaid chapters of Genesis do not contain the stories of events which really that which correspond with objective reality and historical but are either accounts celebrated in fable drawn from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and adapted by a holy writer to monotheistic after expurgating any error of or allegories and devoid of a basis of objective set forth under the guise of history to inculcate religious and philosophical historical in part and fictitious in composed freely for the instruction and edification of In the negative to both Question Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into where it is a matter of facts related in the same which pertain to the foundation of the Christian for among the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of the special creation of the formation of the first woman from the first the oneness of the human the original happiness of our first parents in the state of and the command given to man by God to prove his the transgression of the divine command through the persuasion under the guise of a the casting of our first parents out of that first state of and also the promise of a future In the Question Whether in interpreting those passages of these which the Fathers and Doctors have understood but concerning which they have not taught anything certain and it is while preserving the judgment of the Church and keeping the analogy of to follow and defend that opinion which everyone has wisely In the Question Whether all and words and phrases which occur in the aforementioned are always and necessarily to be accepted in a special so that there may be no deviation from even when the expressions themselves manifestly appear to have been taken or metaphorically or and either reason prohibits holding the proper or necessity forces its In the Question presupposing the literal and historical the allegorical and prophetical interpretation of some passages of the same with the example of the Holy Fathers and the Church herself showing the can be wisely and profitably In the Question since in writing the first chapter of Genesis it was not the mind of the sacred author to teach in a scientific manner the detailed constitution of visible things and the complete order of but rather to give his people a popular according as the common speech of the times accommodated to the understanding and capacity of the propriety of scientific language is to be investigated exactly and always in the interpretation of In the Question Whether in that designation and distinction of six with which the account of the first chapter of Genesis the word can be assumed either in its proper sense as a natural or in the improper sense of a certain space of and whether with regard to such a question there can be free disagreement among In the English for the masses pandering to the masses again with your vernacular WRT Matthew points not in specific Literal in the above texts I read as being literal in the way used in Catholic as in the letters actually refers to not in the way the term is always used whether the letter is or So maybe the literal historical sense of a serpent tempting is simply that Satan tempted and the serpent signifies Satan to use terms But I do think even at time is a better starting point than trying to make everything a The presumption should be on showing that it is a Sometimes easy sometimes more debated walking in the garden in I was wondering how long take you to show Joshua all of your including your interpretation of PBC have already surfaced and been So let me ask you about a point you did not I quoted a passage from In the Beginning in which he proposes a account of original in which account physical generation is not required for Is this account I am not arguing with I am also not going to dissect early He did make What he meant I but it is Trent is as is Pius It is not You assert my has been What I just posted the I am I stand by everything I and condemn as heresy what I called I am not getting into one of these debates like I had with Louis and his arguments that atheists have actual faith and adultery is not always worse that Aquinas agreed with him despite saying the exact The Church is very clear on certain central Even account speaks of the individual the originator of the human I necessarily read him the way you But if it denies that original sins is passed generation to then yes it is I think it as I Ratzinger made mistakes elsewhere authority for Whether this is one of those times or not would be all such a debate over his meaning could since the Catholic faith on this point is I am sorry I bow before the Bolin intellect on such I have the I do know what the Church has and I merely presented And I know what scripture And I know that you are no expert on modern any more than I or John Paul II who said the same and the experts I have encountered have been far less confident in this And while I could not read every comment above in I did skim all of them since the time of my last You offered no refutations try pulling a fast one like You posted I posted the If I did read his relational account as saying that is all original sin and not a deprivation of original just inherited by it would be the same as their position that original sin is not but by moral a snowball I read it that especially since Ratzinger has a relational account of the human person so damage in his relationality is ontological for I agree with that account of the and so neither this account of original But you are trying to pull a fast text dumping from a theologian who is operating under a very different set of assumptions and without alluding to that figures exist without the So IMHO throwing out the literal meaning also throws out the But the as you put it has never been the absolute approach of the fathers of the The dogma of the propagation of original sin mentions Adam as the first The canons of Trent to not mention Nor did I claim they that as a starting you are safer assuming proper signification of a passage then assuming metaphorical signification more often than of the two one to exaggerate the historical character and the other to downplay the former is a better side to err Of course on many points we must admit metaphorical and on many points there is legitimate debate some of the Fathers wondered about the extent of the not disagreeing with I following that there is good reason to disagree with a literal hour interpretation of the creation in I think that it works the same for Adam and original The canons of Trent are very clear on that they only mention Adam and not which I suppose could leave a crack open for so long as Adam is the father of you posted the PBC text with the seeming intention to imply that it rules out certain opinions expressed earlier in this That implication was indeed refuted Your general approach to these questions suggests that you mistake your own interpretation of the teachings for the teachings It does no good to for teaches when the own shepherds have made clear in the past that the Church does not intend to teach Among other they have made it clear that polygenism has not been definitively ruled and that the scriptural accounts of creation do not intend to give us an account of the origins of the cosmos and of and that nor do they exclude the contemporary scientific account of these things in its broad strokes and even in its your personal comments are uncalled You have no idea whether or not I am an expert on modern nor do you know whether I know more or less than you do about Since I do not know what you know about modern I do not know this but unlike you I am not arrogant enough to claim to know what I do not I have already stated that I do not know whether polygenism is Should the Church in the future declare it I will accept that What will be your response should she explicitly declare it I should add that that has basically already since when the head of the CDF signed off on the publication of the ITC document and that action signified that the contents at a permissible Catholic Kenz knows it you realized that the reason why he has blocked both Jeff and Just pat him on the head and good There And he only blocked me because married to Jeff maybe because I troll a Just a Though I guess the trolls that keeps this That because she has already declared it impermissible If it it would disprove the Catholic since it is modernist heresy to understand dogmas otherwise than they were understood at the time and That is quickly becoming It is one thing when the on this thread accept the authority of the and quite another when Catholics do And to make oneself the final interpreter of the teaching is in fact to reject that because you know better than John Paul II and Ratzinger how to interpret the past teachings of the I agree I do think he is young I just understand blocking someone who has a difference of Goes back how else to break up the Michael Trent not mention Eve for the reason that Adam held a unique place as head of the human Adam had not even though Eve had the human race would have have it it would disprove the Catholic since it is modernist heresy to understand dogmas otherwise than they were understood at the time and it seems I must choose between the magisterium of John Paul II and Benedict XVI and the magisterium of Joshua No Communion and Stewardship does not undo Humani and neither does John Paul II who quotes it with the first was a type of him who was to Christ the Yes it does talk about a common genetic lineage in a humanoid And then goes on to quote John Paul II about the ontological Mainly concerned with evolution as it the question of Pope John message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific In the which is not magisterial but was off as you no where really addresses the question of polygenism with respect to the human and in affirming Adam as a strongly implies the traditional orthodoxy of all descending from Adam and his very real historical He would not be a type if he did not I am not setting myself up as the authority You are getting approved by two people blocked by me who cannot even see what I am saying over accusing me of arguing the opposite of what I The document you must choose between your idiosyncratic reading of which you suddenly transmute into the magisterium of Benedict despite the writings being well before his and the traditional understanding of the If anyone says that it is possible that at some given the advancement of a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and let him be In I am not rejecting anything of the I am rejecting the bullshit you claim is found in it when in fact it is it is hard to argue with If any one that the prevarication of Adam injured himself and not his and that the holiness and received of which he he lost for himself and not for us or that being defiled by the sin of has only transfused and pains of the into the whole human but not sin which is the death of the let him be he contradicts the apostle who By one man sin entered into the and by sin and so death passed upon all in whom all have When discussing the ontological leap pertains to the doctrine of the immediate creation of the human Communion and Stewardship says theology affirms that the emergence of the first members of the human species as individuals or in represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine The manifest intention of that parenthetical is to leave room for I am fairly confident that you will deny but that does not make it any less I am not referring to the passage from In the Beginning when I speak of the magisterium of Benedict but to many other some of which were cited such as Easter Vigil anyone says that it is possible that at some given the advancement of a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and let him be and well You will note that it does not anyone says that it is possible that at some given the advancement of a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which Joshua Kenz has understood and let him be If you do not even have the humility to say that you would change your opinion should the Church reject but instead feel the need to say that if the Church rejected your opinion it would disprove the Catholic I think done I am not presenting an opinion no more than I would be presenting an opinion if I said that faith was necessary for or that God is per the Church were to declare one of those it would disprove the Catholic The Church with that from one man sin entered the I am not someone who will say that if the pope calls black then it is I am not since I am not of turning propositions inside out as you apparently I am absolutely because of the that such contradiction will not nay could not happen Humility has nothing to do with my confidence in my Or rather I should arrogance has nothing to do with If you knew my you would know that the only real manifestation of humility in me was in accepting the is anyone denying that one man sin entered into the  Apparently some people think one man can mean many does anyone deny that dogmatic the refers to many eves not many adams So Adam just got I believe anyone has denied and of course it is indifferent to the question of Even Eve took her descent in some way from No it is not Michael you making your case very strongly It is completely Either we descended from Adam and Eve or we did Only qua head of the could sin in a way in which humanity could fall in him the burden of proof is on you to say how polygenesis effect the dogmatic statement above And you are I read the Communion and Stewardship the way you Because it say what you want it to The moment of emergence of the human whether in individuals or is not discernible to That is not saying anything about And the fact remains that they could nothold Adam as a type if Adam had not You can make Adam a with many drift But you would still have the difficulty in explaining how that is not incidental to the human race as a Just random If we want more than just Adam and Eve at the why not also after the If there were many human why would that mean that sin did not enter the world through one of Because the human race does not fall then  How would it Remember I read So I only see Bolin and The dogmatic statement is to the universality of the sin by I seen any statements that say it was look up the universality of the sin of Adam is because he is the unblock behave Qua rationality So have to change what it would mean for someone to be a parent The flood is not just two Lauren The reason for the confusion about original sin is that people are assuming that original sin is propagated by biological But as I have pointed out that is not a dogmatic then what the hell does are How else would it be propagated and how would that be flood just what Is that such a huge difference for populating the whole world and establishing I have a personal theory about I quoted one offered by Ratzinger which Joshua attempted to dodge because he want to call Ratzinger a Theories do have to show why they are fitting and how they contradict what we know what is the point of calling if it refer to I agree still trying to catch up The fact is that we know very little about the origins of the human and we have to accept Making things up mean pars cough But I guess Aquinas was stoopid in holding with every Catholic theologian of the time and all the that Adam was And indeed Pius X was stoopid for thinking that made such teaching forget the sensus the sensus theologicorum and the sensus And Trent was stoopid for making us take an oath that said we would never understand scripture against the sensus I should really read the And always nice when people repeat things especially on this thread since it goes so saying already been said Everything has been said hold off on the flood for a moment and whether it was earlier today we resolved by consensus that it Focusing just on the human pool at rational the question is whether generation is required as child or as race with Adam as the first of our About the propagation of original Benedict XVI said may not nor may we recount it as one fact beside because it is a deeper It remains a mystery of of Which is exactly We are a democracy appeal to ignorance an argument I am willing to call a spade a account must be read in light of his view that human person is a relational Stop this And by that you mean that his opinions about original sin are I mean you are misreading him that refer to just passing on of sin from Adam to all men through a big How is sin carried from one to the somehow I passed it onto my I go back Just Homeschooling takes up a bit of the I said what I said clearly enough Bolin seem to want to actually engage what I prefers rhetoric Life takes up a bit of the day Liz until you tell me that you will admit to being wrong if the Church explicitly teaches the permissibility of done arguing with For Then stop arguing you sophistical modernist Michael do you really mean to suggest that we can only hold to accounts of original sin that leave us ignorant of unfortunate is that I see Kenz are you or do I know Yes I would be holding the Catholic faith But that is Would you admit you are wrong about the historicity of Christ if the Church declared You would disdain the as impossible There was certainly a before the on their being one set of and of other aspects of the doctrine both in the sensus fidelium and the sensus to say nothing of the Therefore it constitutes infallible teaching I was trying to She attend but her sister graduated Peter I knew class of nah Bolin I knew your older what Michael is that saying a dark is not license to make up whatever that we speculate flying in the face of all that is Sweet Keep moving That way I can get some reading done and still hang around here Benedict called it a mystery precisely to indicate that we understand it as well as some here think they I knew his older brother and his older but His brother in law called me the Ubermensch you fly in the face of Dogma There is a difference between flying in the face of and exploring the darkness Which we probably That is understand as well as we may think we That mean we change how sin is passed Theological spelunking Think about what is being People here are saying is precisely defined but those whose task it is to guide the Church are saying that it is Being of course I side with the so you argue with Trent and the clearly laid out OriginaI sin is a marketing I am saying that we must interpret the teaching as the Church not however we we may call it but if it starts to smell and the temperature is we may have our heads up you get it the thing it seems like doing the opposite Joshua wishes to pass anathemas on those who understand the teaching other than he understands I prefer to follow the Church in learning how to understand her I guess my point I am familiar with all types of TACs and Michael Seems like making it up as you go along Rectal readings are generally degree higher than Which view better follows the the Church teaches I will follow or the Church teaches the Catholic Faith must be Dogma rise and it is Which view better follows the dogma rise and it is Understanding her teaching is different from changing I will proceed to converse when you answer the And we still given an alternate understanding of if we did it was waaaaaay far cf Tuas libenter by Pius IX on the infallibility of both the sensus fidelium and sensus I am not saying that Aquinas detailed examination of how original sin is passed down must be Bolin is trying to deny even the most basic commonality among accounts through the man we take our descent from mankind fell in him he must be unique in someway that allows Genesis relates true history the qualifiers in the PBC document affirm and while like the may be Adam is a type of and Genesis does relate the existence of real persons and it did not it would not be history in any sense Nobody has changed it is in understanding You both make no Since one is no no no we follow the church if thats blah blah This is what drives me nuts yar Church That Can and Cannot Dogma New York Times In his new Judge John Noonan demonstrates that some Catholic doctrines have changed BY PETER STEINFELS Joseph Dogmatic formulas should always change Joseph Ratzinger defends that no dogmatic formula And with the TAC habit of ignoring simple questions and skipping to the ones or dancing around Difficult ones are answerable with bullshit Bolin is trying to besmirch me for how I answer an impossible dilemma If the Church teaches that Christ did not take would you admit you are wrong on How would you if per did it would mean the Catholic faith is I hold that it is impossible for the Church to contradict herself and that is imputed anyone who knew my history would know my sudden and thorough abnegation of my opinions before the Bolin is not the And his points are forced I am not saying anything about my opinions around this subject are but the central heart of the both as defined by the extraordinary magisterium and as taught by the oridinary and universal which is and can be evidenced in the consensus of theologians from before the That I wish to try and explain and judge everything Ratzinger may have is I consider thesis here pernicious in the Can I defend that there was such a Does anyone seriously dispute I can cite numerous but really easier to disprove it it if you think it can Does anyone seriously dispute that when reading the Fathers of the Council or those after them understood it not to refer to Adam as a real as the head of the human if you have show If Vatican I I am sick of this obfuscation of the Yes I have quoted Augustine about how naive readings of contrary to cause scandal But I much rather have the faith of the person who would naively read the scriptures than one who feels the need that we must leave open every possible and must oppose the magisterium of to that of yesteryear adorable baby  Enough time for bed I think anyone denied definition of Although whether there were many females mating with Adam and be getting rational children may be a topic for of those females may have been rational as well and named And Just one month Jeff I unblocked I hope we can interact a little more charitably this I only blocked you because it tempted me to anger over the women voting Agreed non rational females mating with I know what that would Ahhh discourse Hi why do you block it be get too I am way too much Although I may search your limits and push a Yes it would I blocked you only because I anticipated that having blocked Jeff you would nag me about that is As I I blocked him for my own sake I cannot engage without anger I rather not engage at It would be sinful I Which is why I think it can seriously be at least before the After the well that would be a very rapid descent into again it only took one generation to have just After the It may have occurred if that polygenism is to Pretty sure Augustine would have huge things to say about Liz you are sitting next to right not saying that it be a just if there were a society of and one of which became that the children may not have all been All answer the We must distinguish between those facts upon which the authority is established and those which we hold only on account of the The former cannot be overturned by the since the argument would be Since the authority depends on the incarnate having established the Church cannot overturn The we should change our opinions about whenever our judgment that Church at this time intends to teach becomes more probable than our judgment that the Church intended to teach Quite We are talking about matters of and therefore the former in your De fide divina not de fide ecclesiatica Hey The authority does not depend on whether polygenism is true or Does it depend on whether transubstantiation is true or True But you believe polygenism is false because you believe that the Church teaches that it is  I said true to Bolin We believe in transubstantiation because the Church teaches Comments get rearranged after moment or so Yes to Facebook is very annoying that so you are not distinguishing between de fide divina and de fide ecclesiatica as I if the Church were to that the bread would you change your Or would you say that such is I follow the I am just trying to understand is he claiming the Church can change what it intends or that what it intends to teach is only understood by opinion or I have opinions beyond what the church but I may be I have a high degree of confidence that the Church teaches that the bread does not since she has said it many times in many as have most of her But I am also aware that I am making a judgment that the Church teaches and that my judgment is not if the contrary were taught sufficiently strongly and often enough that I became more convinced that the Church is now trying to teach that the bread remains than I am convinced that previously she taught that it does then I would admit to being wrong that the Church had taught that the bread does not Michael Beitia is saying that once a dogma has been clearly it is not necessary to wonder whether something manifestly contrary to that doctrine might be true or might be taught by the Church for example whether She might be teaching now that Christ is not true man but only appeared to Michael Bolin is denying that polygenism contradicts any defined dogma as Original Sin or headship over the human in a direct and in support of this position he is citing the fact that recent pontiffs have also apparently not seen the position of polygenism as per se contrary to any such unchanging Beitia is not denying that the authority is higher than his personal opinion and Bolin is not claiming that dogma can You are disagreeing about what the doctrines of original sin and headship really Well Can you tell she deals with this kind of misunderstanding I think that the teaching about transubstantiation is But I think that my thinking this is  Bolin just gave what I will call a modernist Apparently he does not think there is certitude in the assent to propositions of This is not a This is at its a reiteration of the debate with the He is trying to force a distinction based on the fallibility of the judgments about what the Church says I think that the possible confusion indicated in my previous comment is at the heart of the problem I am saying that we cannot consider our judgments by introspection and say that hold X by divine but not Is that what you I of course we can say but it does not itself have divine And if we we would not need things like We could simply sit down and list everything we held by divine Michael a stranger TACer if you can leave and just go to bed without finishing the Teach me your How is that not Basically claiming that we really cannot know the propositions of the no matter how clearly apparently and that the Church as far as I starting speaking otherwise and I would have to change my I deny the distinction of subjective and objective certitude in But come Do you really think that is what this could I not say the same about my that the Faith is My certitude that I should hear the The certitude that Christ became incarnate I think the certitude you want is only to be had in the beatific I feel like Descartes right Do you also hold such agnosticism with regard to natural Does reason have to be infallible to have certitude in some How that theologians can disagree over what doctrines are de I think the same about natural But I would really like an answer to my last I am not trying to trap I truly do not see how it could happen if we had introspective knowledge of what propositions are held with divine for the sake of my understanding your consider again my position about the teaching on Is your position if indeed I became convinced that the Church is now teaching that the bread I should conclude that the Catholic faith is then I must point out that not only do I not share your epistemic that you must see are radically behind your whole argument I think you can reconcile such with the If anyone says that the true our creator and cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been by the natural light of human let him be How can that be true if we cannot have I think to rehash which is where this goes back besides being unwieldy on would go beyond my ability to stay you not see why one would have difficulty with what you are And the answer to your question I think is far more detailed than I am prepared to give at this Not dodging just seeing in it many fundamental I have difficulty and may have a crisis of faith if we lack that much like most means many Of course I agree with Vatican I on this I would also say that I know the Pythagorean theorem with But that does not preclude another sense in which I could be mistaken about even the Pythagorean since I do not have knowledge of Or do you not think we could be mistaken about the Pythagorean You mean it could be possible that in Euclidean I deny we could be maybe you have certitude about but I do assuming Euclidean not going for a dumb This is most Could we sit down and compile a list of mathematical propositions about which we could not be seems like it would be a long and for what end would we compile such a By the thank you for being willing to dialog about I think we may be getting to the heart of the issue Can we all go to bed so I miss What is this you speak Also not claiming that proof is you take the context as presuming continuous quantity prop assuming the continuity in base Why not keep it I am getting sick with a cold and do need to take a nap or So must ecuse myself for now good I would be most interested in continuing this if you are I must add that this does not mean that I think dogmas can Just even though I think it possible for us to be mistaken about the Pythagorean this does not mean that I think the mathematical truth could there a The proof of the Pythagorean theorem is an attempt to make the theorem known and so the lack of certitude there involves doubts either as to the principles or the deductive method term it makes sense to distinguish the mathematical truth about the sides and hypotenuse of a right triangle form the Pythagorean theorem since the latter is the articulation of the A dogma maybe a dogmatic definition like the canons of precisely is an attempt to articulate some truth about God or his in this what stands as the mathematical truth does is not the but the way God is or the way God the analogy you rely upon not sure exactly what to but dogma just seems to be more like the Pythagorean theorem than like the mathematical truth and thus to say that dogma cannot wrong is precisely to say that we are committed to a certain formulation of the Divine truth by I was using to mean the When I believe that my judgment Church teaches could be and that therefore my judgment could that does not mean that I think the truth of X itself could exactly my you said does not mean that I think dogmas can Just even though I think it possible for us to be mistaken about the Pythagorean this does not mean that I think the mathematical truth could that sets up the analogy X mathematical truth Pythagorean arguing that Truth dogmas mathematical truth Pythagorean Your third and fourth terms are the if Except that they differ as articulable and either both are true or both are And in your Divine Truth cannot and so dogmas cannot We can be wrong about the mathematical truth because we claim to think a false we think we have articulated that truth To say that dogma is infallible would be to say that the Church articulate the divine truth That would imply that the way the Church understood the divine truth is the way the divine truth So where along the timeline do we get I prefer not having but with modern homo Sapiens appearing in the fossil record about years I think there is time for Neanderthals coexisted with us until about years ago when they became I agree completely that the Church articulate the divine truth I also agree that the way the Church understands the divine truth is the way the divine truth I have never denied either of these I used the past tense I agree about the past tense I change it to make a subtle But whether the Fathers of Trent thought Adam was the only ancestor or not would be Because that would indicate how the Church understood the doctrines in The same We cannot judge about what the Fathers of Trent Quite a Sure but more certain about what they thought on the matter than we are about It seems to me that this whole debate is history repeating When folks were saying that they are not Michael Beitia think it pointed out that no one has for that Earth is only years But I know many people who are just as convinced that this is part of Church teaching as Joshua is convinced that monogenism is part of Church Feeney was convinced that his understanding of ecclesiam nulla was and this is what got him into How are we to infallibly know that got it and that the YECs and Feeney I have said before that I do not wish to affirm that polygenism is the more probable And that aspect of the debate concerns me much less than this later I hold the position I do because I believe proper submission to the Church requires I admit that there are some doctrines about which the teaching of the Church is not as clear as one must distinguish between those teachings that are most clear and those that are Joshua is quite right to say that it is Modernist Heresy to say that we cannot know the teachings of the Church with perfect certainty this is We cannot sit down and write out an infallible list of infallible And this is since otherwise there would not be disagreement about what is We could not be having this debate if we could know that with perfect I think there is at least one about which we are sure of its Christ rose from the My point that there are certain teachings that we would not debate I do not think the teaching about polygenism being excluded is a clear But I could be I think the teaching about transubstantiation is a clear I cannot be wrong about I because we can have moral But even that is lacking compared what the blessed I noted before that doctrines that the very authority depends on cannot be included in the present because that would be what about the Assumption or the Immaculate How do you know you cannot be wrong about I think what you really mean is that you are so certain that you cannot imagine something happening to make you But it is still the case that our certitude is limited just in virtue of being created intellects not united to the divine The certitude of faith is greater than moral I have moral certitude about the Marian But the fact remains that it is not impossible in principle that we could become even more certain that our previous understanding of them was Scotus argues at length about the ultimately holding that consubstantiation was the more rational he says something like more but the Church has declared so we cannot affirm I mean moral certitude at the minimum level to be Michael you arguments assume that the Church is not a perfect they assume only that we are not Or that the faith cannot be taught in a way proportioned to our an outrageous thing for Scotus to  So there is the certainty of the blessed and there is moral But it shows how certain he was about what the Church there actually is a good charitable interpretation of that he means only that the one seems more reasonable according to his judgment considered apart from the nothing wrong with having judgment corrected by the my in Of course The to my Michael is that you make no distinction in the clarity of teachings by the But I do not believe there is a magic threshold where suddenly one can say the Church can no longer correct my I grant that there is no Not true at There is a whole spectrum of and nothing I said has denied Just as in natural somethings will be ceritior to all and some only to the The argument in because someone asserted that there was such a and that he knew infallibly that monogenism was on one side of the It is possible that someone has a greater certainty about what the Church than for the creed is  it is But does not equal the magic line where our judgment becomes But our understanding of Church doctrine can be more or less The greater precision with which we try to state the more liable we are to from I was certain just that the consecrated host is who is God and Agreed Later I learned that my imagination about that was more along the lines of Such a position has been clearly and when I learned I changed my position to that of what the Church I admit that the certitude I have in transubstantiation is less than the certitude I have about the general formulation that the consecrated host is But that is still a high degree of At this point not sure if disagreeing or  I am just trying to be It looked like Joshua was arguing against your more than against at one At least the way Louis articulated his thoughts several years I am not sure I think that Joshua thinks I am a because I tell him that his judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is is not And because I say that his judgment would still not be infallible even if the Church did teach In I would be somewhat surprised if Louis did not agree with Joshua on this Louis The Neverending Thread is this about to turn into the Bolin family noticed Dominic lurking about We had a long debate with Louis about this question about years ago or and he held a rather unrefined position about not being able to know the not responsible for anything he It is possible hopefully the that positions have Deleted because I speak for Post Pater Thomas Crean I think you might be interested in this Would a human migration map support monogenism from Adam did not migrate immediately of To be less intimidating here is a log scale of human population in Data source wolphram showing about people in Bc I thinking about Louis I will try to write a more thorough response tomorrow up still because sleep cycle is messed up despite being But Aquinas clearly disagrees about this infallible business The spiritual gift of wisdom Similiter etiam donum cujus est spiritualia quae intellectus judicare sive ordinare sive infallibiliter et recte judicabit et ordinabit de omnibus quae ei sive sint apprehensiones sive et in hoc quaedam similitudo deitatis in homine cum Deus a providendo et judicando nomen secundum quam homo filius Dei manifeste Faith In response to the objection videtur univoce secundum quod dicimur aliis Sed fides aliorum non est Ergo nec fides using faith the way Aquinas uses it with regard to Aquinas quod ratio inclinans voluntatem ad credendum est ipsa veritas quae est sed ratio quae inclinat voluntatem ad credendum est vel aliquod signum vel dictum alicujus qui et falli et fallere unde voluntas non dat infallibilem veritatem intellectui credenti alia sicut dat infallibilem veritatem credendi articulos et propter hoc haec fides est virtus et non The senses are infallible with respect to their proper Commentary on De anima III lectio Among the divisions of judicative logic involves with no possibility of there being a defect of truth and this isthe same as certainty of Opinion belongs to the Topics and involves moral as the mind is wholly declined to one side of a as opposed to what we often call which he calls which is produced by cf the preface of the commentary on the Post De spiritualibus ad on further infallible aspectsof human The fact I am a So of course I reject this skepticism being There lingers in the background a confusion of with both objective and subjective Nor is the realism of Aquinas a critical realism if critical there is taken in the Kantian What is meant is that it is not that is it is defended by going back to first principles and intelligible The original bifurcation proposed by Bolin here is self If I can be wrong about the Church teaching that the substance of bread changes into the substance of then I can be wrong about the Church teaching that the is really Or wrong even about the reality of the But you object that those are with respect to the certitude that If the Church came out and said that Christ did not physical rise from the but what is meant was a Theophanic experience and the Church gets her mandate from why I be by this logic to go and to however unlikely that such could after all my reason is so utterly fallible that it could be wrong on any particular why not that If not that at some point Bolin has conceded some things are known with absolute That there is no absolute line we can draw in no We all admit that human knowing is a clumsy As De Kononick observed I can know a horse is alive and a rock is even if I do not know whether a virus And that I know the exact line between life and non mean I possess subjective certitude about just that I know everything as completely as I would like See object certitude belongs to the thing known or Subjective certitude is the determination by which my intellect is conformed to in which we have This can be more or not as absolute versus moral but as more or less We know things confusedly at children call all men then they My of is another Who has not felt doubts about things which their reason doubted none Sure I can have experiential certainty without real But just as hallucinations disprove the reliability of the neither does instances of false affirmations of certainty In defending Aquinas doctrine of the infallibility of the I wrote how does one know that he is not The very question supposes the To name to say that something is an to speak of misjudgment is to presuppose a basis by which to judge Within the person who is he may be able to recognize that he is doing this by checking with his other primarily that of This thing may look but touch will And if his hallucination is so strong as to be indistinguishable for him from the very fact that he is hallucinating means that there is a problem with If one looks to usually one cannot judge while dreaming that he is His power of judgment is The same hold true for the man who is convinced by his If such an experience were not intrinsically distinguishable from then it would be impossible for a man to learn that something is an But this happens often when the problem that induces the hallucination is removed or I would apply mutatis mutandi That I can judge that I have been in that I let the love of argument cause me to be more firm in a position that I ought to and that we can see this sometimes more clearly in instead of showing that there is no absolute these judgments about error presuppose that there In answer to the almost Kantian criticism that Bolin asked we this introspection to get a list of I answer that it is clear from Such a methodology may be good for taking inventory of what I personally but it confuses with subjective The fact is that I do know not merely have That I cannot make a list troubles me no more than the virus troubled De Koninck in asking whether we knew something about the ability to communicate ideas and for the Church to even teach assumes a certain ability of the mind to actually know and since certitude is the primary aspect of by which we mean since moral certitude belongs to human belief and then it presupposes at least a very clumsy infallibility in human as an aspect often shrouded by the faulty parts were we angels we would not have a difference between experiential certainty and subjective Likewise the Church doctrine that the sensus theologicorum or the sensus fidelium even is INFALLIBLE underscores that their understanding of the words used by the propositions of faith cannot be denied in an attempt to reconcile modern difficult statements with past This is I am learning so would you agree with But our understanding of Church doctrine can be more or less The greater precision with which we try to state the more liable we are to it Isak Come only up for this can move fast again for that I do not believe there is a magic threshold where suddenly one can say the Church can no longer correct my misrepresenting what I I said it was impossible for the Church to teacher other than she has whether about or our first If she per the faith would be That is not it is an argument from I argued that The dogma at Trent was understood in this But we cannot understand doctrine other than how it has always been Vatican I was directly at viz advancement of sciences versus that understanding Pius XII understood the dogma in this and this was not repuidated by John Paul II or That there was a both of theologians and the before the But the Church teaches that such constitutes infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium Tuas No one addressed Two was asserted but is in no wise clear and was brushed of via the modernist between things we believe because the Church says so and things prior to distinction I utterly for even something like transubstantiation is believed de fide ot de fide on as witnessed and handed down by the And I answered that were the to be contradicting what held that the Catholic faith would be was meant to be a proof from The Faith is therefore not But it also for all the decrying of young earth how utterly scandalous and offensive this position advanced by Bolin strikes Such reasoning is what I have personally seen lead many out of the because it boils down to little more than the church says black is white than it is I used to call that the But I really think it is a form of authoritarian And people buy into Because it means that every word said about the well I could be we have an infallible but there is a wall between her infallibility teaching and us being infallibly teaching is incomprehensible and we are only making reasoned opinion about what that But then why not join a protestant Many low churchers view the bible that but not infallibly we Catholics argue that the unity of faith requires an infallible except Bolin argues that it makes no actual difference to the members of the since the infallible rule remains wholly outside the faithful as something they can never reach in There a confusion in what the faith consists I said this but more My faith is in and the propositions I believe I believe as revealed by Him and on His The Church is not the object of faith or infallible assent in that but one assents because the virtue of faith assents to her as the organ through which God safeguards His So there is not a bifurcation of those truths infallibly taught by the such that the soul is form and body is that are not themselves are indeed infallibly but it is not heresy to deny because de fide still the infallibility is there only because of the connection to the The Church presupposes not just Christ instituting but the entirety of So I vehemently denounce this position of Bolin as modernism in magisterial my understanding can be more or less more or less explicit many Catholics would deny thinking that as Catholics they ought to deny This is not through the act of but of mistaken human judgment I assent to transubstantiation as revealed by This is and the act of faith as Aquinas says that the will gives my intellect infallible truth But I take the position of that it happens in modo abductionis to be Years later I discover that it is My rejection of that as heresy was in some way motivated by my but a result of mistaken My judgment now that it is certainly wrong is different in that my certitude is in the manner of a theological Before that I had moral by looking at the fact that even scotists abandoned that doctrine long That I was mistaken about one does not mean the act of faith does not involve infallible assent to certain propositions based on the proper object of which is the first Just as we mistakenly judge our certitude at times with natural but damn it we know that we know even if sometimes we muddle And my mistaken of lessen the certitude I have with regard to the was rejected as incompatible with the Something I now claim to know with real from but before I falsely held because I thought the Church herself had made that other my apprehension of the faith remained true even in spite of the error The character of my judgment now is of reason rather than the will and so if very People make mistakes all the That trouble me a bit Oran example where I was very I formerly thought that two unbaptised persons could be so that if one were to remarry there would not be an issue or any need to involve the But I was wrong is prohibited to my assent to the proposition that sacramental marriage is indissoluble is no more certain now than though I drew a false conclusion from it Just as even in children who call all men father there is an apprehension that involves then they and I learned to The degree to which my reason is determined by faith in holding explicitly this or that not the infallibility by which faith moves me to hold Not sure that was any would you agree with the certitude I have in transubstantiation is less than the certitude I have about the general formulation that the consecrated host is But that is still a high degree of The quotations from Thomas miss the whatever is believed by divine faith is true it would not be by divine but your judgment that you believe any specific proposition by divine faith is the Church came out and said that Christ did not physical rise from the but what is meant was a Theophanic experience and the Church gets her mandate from why I be by this logic to go and to however unlikely that such could after all my reason is so utterly fallible that it could be wrong on any particular why not that it is true that one could in principle become more certain that the Church is contradicting herself than one is of the reasons for believing the Church to be an authority in the first which would indeed lead one to conclude that the Church is in I that you are not claiming that your certainty that the Church teaches that polygenism is false is greater than your certainty that the Church is a legitimate teaching authority in the first which is what would be required to justify your position that the Faith would be proved false if the Church were to explicitly state the permissibility of Nor is the reference to De Koninck The subjective certitude a horse is alive is not And likewise it is false that judgments of error presuppose infallible they presuppose only that some judgments are more certain than This is because judgments of error are also not if you cannot make a at least an incomplete of things you know then how do you know that Church teaches that polygenism is is on that it should be clear by now that Church doctrines such as the infallibility of the consensus of the Fathers cannot get you out of the For you are not infallible in judging what doctrines belong to the consensus of the or the sense of the or any misrepresenting what I I said it was impossible for the Church to teacher other than she has whether about or our first If she per the faith would be That is not it is an argument from It is true that the Church cannot teach other than as she has but that is not what you You claimed that the Church cannot teach other than as you believe her to have The dogma at Trent was understood in this But we cannot understand doctrine other than how it has always been Your judgment that the dogma at Trent was understood in this way is not Pius XII understood the dogma in this and this was not repuidated by John Paul II or Your judgment that Pius XII understood presumably intended to the dogma in this way is not That there was a both of theologians and the before the But the Church teaches that such constitutes infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium Tuas Your judgment that there was such a consensus is not it also for all the decrying of young earth how utterly scandalous and offensive this position advanced by Bolin strikes And there are those who are just as certain that the Catholic faith teaches that the earth was created years ago as you are that the Catholic faith teaches that polygenism is And like they believe that their judgment that the Church teaches this is they believe the position to be utterly scandalous and like they could say that if they could be wrong about the Church teaching then they could be wrong about the Church teaching that Christ rose from the and they be wrong about so they be wrong about the age of the earth And so dialog becomes because everyone is like that his own opinion is then why not join a protestant Many low churchers view the bible that but not infallibly we Catholics argue that the unity of faith requires an infallible except Bolin argues that it makes no actual difference to the members of the since the infallible rule remains wholly outside the faithful as something they can never reach in Why not if you already know in advance what the Church can and cannot because your opinions about this are It is you who make the living Magisterium because you wish to extend her infallibility beyond her teachings to your own opinions about her there remains the most obvious problem for your you claim that it is impossible to be mistaken about the proposition Church teaches that polygenism is yet here we are disagreeing as to whether that proposition is How do we if one cannot be mistaken about Gloves off time If by certitude we mean objective the former is greater than the If by subjective this since one truth follows upon the Just as I am more certain of an earlier proposition in Euclid than a latter But if by degrees of certitude we mean anything like moral versus absolute this I I deny that there is in the fear of error involved in And affirm that my will commands my intellect to assent to this as to infallible not try to bury what Bolin said in the vague use of terms for the sake of a false He is arguing for I say that is pernicious how scandalous his statements are That he cannot see how such statements can truly harm young souls boggles my The most obvious problem is Bolin is that he is a It is clear Aquinas was It is clear John Paul II was But he has this bizarre view of faith that derives from his ultimately agnostic stance about which leads him to affirm heresy what we know is When the Church says we can know by natural reason that God exists with did she mean moral certitude or Only a liar would claim the Clearly it was as Aquinas understood natural as reaching a truth with and I have given an answer for why people can be in error about sensation yet still sensation is as AQUINAS But Bolin still throws up can we disagree if you are just you are wrong About a whole lot of People disagree about many things that are certainly It just means people can be not that knowledge of these things is I reject your heresy with every sinew of my I denounce it as rank It makes impossible discussion about the status of Church as I tried to make following Tuas Because you are arguing that we must be ready to hold dogma in a way different than it was held That is Pure and Words have no meaning and we collapse into My judgment that Bolin is not an hermaphrodite duck in a man costume is not My judgment that the word does not mean is not infallible My judgment that pope Francis is not one of the lizard people is not My judgment that I exist is not infallble My judgment that I am not a brain in a vat is not infallible My judgment that is does not mean is not is not infallible Look at the liberty given us by I say that Communion and Stewardship means by individuals and by popuations as individual Tell me I am Tell me I am wrong if I say that when the Church says Christ rose from the that it only means a theophanic experience in the that I am And do and I will take you as affirming because my judgment that the word wrong means wrong is not could be wrong and wrong could mean right stjyssytmsmgmsysm gfnstrn vc xgfvgthejm sgw t And thus we must descend into both with regard to the Faith and with regard to way to the insane asylum To say I am not infallible is not to give an argument easy to give just show a counter It is to be a may be but the other word for a donkey Seems part of the dispute is that there is a contention that Joshua knows about what the Church teaches and does not When in reality it is the product of lot a This seems to point out that not all Church teachings are equally But all church teachings can be made clear by refferal to her But even some are teachings will be more clearly expounded than Okay that was but the point If I am correct about its objective certitude is based on its necessary connection with the doctrine of original which is less certain than the objective certitude of the proposition that scripture is a channel of revelation in which God has revealed and that is derived from the first the object of Faith The objective certitude of the propositions of faith are not derived from the magisterium as some middle Rather the magisterium is the organ of that serves to safeguard and make known what was revealed by We call truth infallible insofar as truth is in but insofar as truth is assented to by In this by the infallible rule of The infallibility means nothing to without the virtue of faith that moves me to assent to her as to an infallible as the a safeguard and teacher of the contents of revelation ultimately there is no infallible assent on the part of the then the word is And if there is no involved in human then becomes a false And we say that if the Church said that resurrection was really a Theophany and not a real that that would change anything about our relation with Because the very meaning of any word becomes Because it is possible that it can mean anything But I with absolute some if not this greater or less still is what undergirds both ability to know and to even The position that because my judgment is not itself I cannot be absolutely that the bread does not remain in must logically entail that because my judgment is not I cannot be absolutely certain that any word means And so the same skepticism must also affect any and all of my even that God Or my assent to the proposition that words mean that there are other people besides and so It really ends in rendering everything I still see that the polygenism question is wholly I disagree with Michael and even academically in his use of and I think it is a bit ridiculous to do this usual Bolin thing of saying absurd things and then insisting that because a Bolin said it it clearly was spoken with the authority of the I had to deal with that enough as a and then as a and then as a and I like Frankly I wish people would poke back at it as Josh is In the first Josh has given a number of arguments which whether they are or I seem to recall that we went to Thomas Aquinas and I also note that whatever TNET has it began as a display of the ARGUMENTS with which students routinely capped their When we honestly make as fellow that to me constitutes a sacred duty to answer presumed truth with actual I have read the whole I find when they blase to the whole to be completely obscure on the question of where he thinks any epistemological authority comes For the like when he answered first claim with interpretation has been answered is that Would you care to cite and also how they FACTUALLY and CAREFULLY interpret the PBC Because I would love to see that knowing wager seen any sources produce and if he I have full confidence in his ability to dissect them in a fitting For the so our ability to be mistaken about opinions eliminates the possibility of holding an infallible statement to be infallible correctly and in the right The presumption here is that Kenz is OF COURSE holding the wrong context and the wrong I dunno how long been since Bolin was a but in Freshman Aristotle class we called that a petitio and whatever you think of not a nice thing to do to But putting that to make it a petitio one needs a relevant authority to clarify and interpret if one is proposing a sense that is contrary to the evident literal sense of the that authority needs to be active in that Who does Bolin Early talking about the of original which as far as I can tell may have nothing to do with the necessities of its mode of And why should we all be cowed by early in mind that I love Holy Father Emeritus Benedict and have proclaimed my to the After and even can assure me that theologically he is on the yet his friends could be his parents could be blinded by his professors could be and the that the grace of Office is hardly there before one is appointed to the could very well like Prince engaging in childlike rabblerousing before they take the I seem to recall that before he was Pope Cardinal Ratzinger at one point even favored the thought of Hans but changed his mind in light of the atmosphere it eventually created at So if we want to play the interpretation is historically it seems to me that we should be aware that quoting early Ratzinger is a minefield of changed But suppose his Cardinalate or his giant brain gives him if not general authority over the universal Church as he would later You know what else had It was a solemn in which all the bishops spoke together with the Vicar of Christ Lumen Gentium says that trumps It was regarded by the Church as Now if I said says PBC said these twenty Popes said a Doctor of the Church whom we all respect said the Doctors who seemed to say otherwise were not according to trustworthy and someone else says well Ratzinger said this in one is that REALLY supposed to be something that confirms your street I think I wish we could see some actual discussion of monogenism and original sin as such instead of whose nihil obstat we I am certain Joshua is up to that So far I have not been impressed by probably say something about this topic but right now I would just like to point out that the quote regarding the mystery of original sin is not from It is from a general audience of Pope Benedict in To be mistaken about something as simply factual as that seems to me to be quite Building on what Josh said saying Josh is not infallible in his opinion is LITERALLY the same thing as to say just your And that this is something that enough is In the end it comes down to who is more credible Bolin or from long I lean towards but no way to have a so I look to the sources and not the And in that from long I lean towards the ecumenical Council and the authoritative pronouncement by the Biblical Commission and the thought of Thomas Aquinas on the matter because I love Pope I loved him when he was but I agree with everything he said as Ratzinger and neither should we since as did You are Dominic Bolin I meant the quote from the about relational The quote on the mystery of original sin remains but I will grant it was given in a General Granted that I was careless as to proper attribution of a quote which I consider irrelevant to the that I will but if you are going to try and do the ridiculous thing of saying that mixing up two quotes invalidates my whole argument that this has been weak I would consider THAT quite in the sense of caring enough to actually address what Josh has In in is the good news of the only one good source the Therefore living is a it is a good thing to be a man or a woman life is Then follows a mystery of or Evil does not come from the source of being it is not equally Evil comes from a freedom from a freedom How was it how did it This remains Evil is not Only God and good are are Evil remains It is presented as such in great as it is in chapter of with that scene of the two of the of sinful a great image that makes us guess but cannot explain what is itself We may not nor may we recount it as one fact beside because it is a deeper It remains a mystery of of But a mystery of light is immediately Evil comes from a subordinate God with his light is And therefore evil can be Thus the can be The dualist including the monism of cannot say that man is but if evil comes only from a subordinate it remains true that man is And the Book of Wisdom made the nations of the world And the last man is not only but is healed de God introduced He entered into history in He set a source of pure good against the permanent source of The Crucified and Risen the new counters the murky river of evil with a river of And this river is present in we see the the great Saints but also the humble the simple We see that the stream of light which flows from Christ is is This is the whole Please take care to note the language of the two one flowing from new and the The the murky pretty obviously originated in the old who had You will note that at no point is the method of propagation discussed or even made vaguely referential in this entire What IS referenced is the mystery of how a perfect man could WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE I rest my The question of the propagation of sin is to me not as mysterious as its If you rip a and then make a reproduction with a by that original picture rips entered the Our nature is from from whom Eve was and they both and like begets so sin begets If our nature were from some other you would have to posit a SECOND original sin by another you would have to posit all manner of things nowhere discussed in and the reason for presuming these things would be no better than that you found them in the notes of some feverish Biblical scholar trying to propose an original  I have tried very hard not to accidentally get sucked into the TNET rapids since I got tagged in the thing in the first place I stand the infernal phone I only posted this because looking from without I found this exchange entirely Just to be one hundred percent I reread the whole general At no point are monogenism or polygenism mentioned at all a red herring So all that Bolin has really cited is In The which was as a matter of fact and And I think Bolin and I can resolve since his epistemic assumptions negate such an I do think that we all descend from and that there was a set of first parents who sinned and caused the fall of any kind and that such is evident in both the canons of and all later theological treatments both in the magisterium and by theologians that had her I pointed to the consent of the a standard urged by Pius argument admits of namely showing that there was never such a consensus by giving That would have the value of undermining that argument and showing that the Church did not under those dogmatic pronouncements as I have presented How and when we get an ontological leap I am agnostic The doctrine of our first Not so I did make a mistake earlier I said that that the soul was and body matter was infallibly not not actually it is de fide My bad See I do make But on this Polygenism is not It was advanced as early as the beginning of the century even earlier in Patristic Both the Fathers and the theologians later defended against it as an attack on the Catholic And Trent is quoted by more than a few authorities affirming against The burden of proof is on the deniers of my claim And to quote relational account of original sin must be understood in the context of his account of the human person as a remember he rejects there the definition of Aquinas on human may be be a fascinating rabbit hole to descend It answer Pius nor the fact that Pius XII said polygenism was NOT permitted because it was no way apparent how it could be reconciled with which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his That original sin proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own is the That demands a monogenism was held as sententia certa by say If one advances polygenism when did that get early Ratzinger were it to entail was before any possible evidence and thus would be writing against the decision of the Magisterium at the Bolin misses that His position entails that Ratzinger was violating the magisterium at the time of his authority there they would have to still admit that an individual Adam actually committed a sin and passed it on to the rest of They would have to answer how we are all contracted it from through descent drift could answer that I and would have to answer how a man who is not actually the of the human could cause the whole race to fall by an incidental genetic It would seem you would have to at least for a a period where the of was not coextensive with and so unfallen men would have but died out or got married into the race of Adam through genetic This would of against account of the Agustines and every theologian before the century and would poses serious difficulties about even statements made in Communion and which speaks of Adam both as a type of Christ and as a symbol of the unity of the human But he would be no more a symbol of unity were he one among many as I would And if the Church was not yanking our then we must take the consensus of theolgians seriously as actually constituting a source for knowing revelation and as an authority beyond the locus theologicus we would give an individual even We cannot go against this consensus according to Pius IX So the judgment of previous theologians that monogenism is sententia certa seems incredibly hard to dislodge at the very and likely infallible should then be sent fidei It is indeed if there is no way of denying it without denying original sin proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his And it is indeed infallible if there was a true Again prove me Cite some counter One approved theologian before the century that is but besides the fact that the last century is a mess and almost impossible to see who is it is not necessary that the consensus be there always and but only that it has been held and was in fact held with a moral unanimity as a matter of allude to a distinction between common agreement between the Fathers on tangential matters versus matters of What puzzles me about this dispute is that I can propose statements to which both parties assent that seem to pertain to the heart of the I feel like there is a lot of speaking past one with regards to the polygenism question in I think you are very right about the challenges that the position But do the challenges really rule polygenism out as a This was how he opened his with this from there is question of another conjectural namely the children of the Church by no means enjoy such For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of or that Adam represents a certain number of first Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and through is passed on to all and is in everyone as his That seems to me pretty all or as arguments from authority This issue seems to me to be Clear church teaching is that we are all descendants of Adam and and we inherit original sin and its effects from Further determination of this doctrine seems to me to be subject to more uncertainty and while keeping in mind the positions of the Fathers and I think Joshua is further correct in saying that the burden of proof is on those who wish to hold of course is the key is in no way By the very inclusion of that it of necessity leaves open the possibility for it to be But it likewise places the burden of prrof on those who would show otherwise than This is fair but it is also necessary to answer every argument FOR monogenism if one wishes to assert against since the argument must be strong enough for the So far I have seen mostly muttering and text snippets out of We are not speaking past each We are speaking different Him of skepticism and me of at least some attempt at He assents to things you but clearly understands them certitude about the Marian dogmas Nominal assent mean much Possibility of being but argued It is in no way permitted to hold this is how he starts off I think Kenz is better suited to give the arguments which have been raised in favor of monogenism minimally I agree with Josh that it is foolhardy in the extreme to hold to and still more foolhardy to promote it as something that can be safely This is not just about which is it is also about which is I think of this in the same way I think of von universal Could it be Not if it amounts to what I think it amounts but some people think it does not fall under previous and they could also be Is it safe to I and most likely Should we promote Sweet Forgive my but I really do assume the goodwill of all parties I find it hard to believe that Michael Bolin deliberately holds a or I refuse to believe that Joshua are a dogmatic fideist that is unwilling to engage in discussion on these Bolin denies the ability to know I affirm both reason and faith as having certitude I know that your comparison is view can never be at least might be able to be And it is pretty deliberate to be a skeptic when you explicitly hold that we cannot have absolute certitude of Which he when he said he makes the same judgment about natural That is my But I think that Bolin denies the ability to know I am merely taking him at his word Goodwill is one but also respectful to hold people to their Bolin really means what he we ought to take it If he is being he ought to since clearly some of us The presumption is that he is out of respect for his ability to assert his I speak for Michael But he Yes we can play word games and fold into what Aquinas calls But that is what it would word games I missed I thought he was talking about degrees of not WRT I still hold my original the one that started that the ontological leap is not discernible by sciencetific so that in whatever can be said of our common genetic presuming the creation of man ex nihilo involved matter taken from hominid cannot amount to a proof for Because such method cannot distinguish the origin of the the time artifacts and the like would be the human population would have grown Seeing as nothing in scientific research really challenges if understood in respect to the human why is it even something to try and that polygenism is I am more than willing to discuss a serious attempt at answering the whether my argument that such teaching is infallible via Tuas or my argument that Adam must have in himself a greater and in some as Nieto put hold the species of man in himself in a unique way in order to explain how mankind as a whole fell when Adam Address argument What I am not willing is to be told that because of some vague relational ontology held by I am somehow not being a good Or that all my arguments were refuted when none of them after an apparent turn toward to be turned on and have not just my position but my faith at that point I become crass and dogmatic since I am not dealing with rational Does anyone seriously doubt my claim about how before the century everyone understood us as descending from a single Except a few protestant heretics who were condemned for holding Oh that could have been brought up if we ever did have the discussion we should have rather than the skeptical nightmare above the demands for was it Cartesian or Kantian And no one wants to address that argument from the ordinary and universal There was a But that is One can at least wonder about the consensus It seems like there was a consensus to I think this is the strongest argument for must have in himself a greater and in some as Nieto put hold the species of man in himself in a unique way in order to explain how mankind as a whole fell when Adam I asked him point blank Do you also hold such agnosticism with regard to natural Does reason have to be infallible to have certitude in some He I think the same about natural We then had that exchange about how he could be wrong about the Pythagoerean he found it fascinating that I claimed I knew anything with certitude and started the demand for a list thing He is playing fast with That is why I keep using objective subjective experiential absolute If it was a those distinctions should have cleared it does some to waffle on the moral certitude claim admittedly But moral certitude is not We would all be stuck in the That is More like Cicero than Aquinas there I think you are right that these issues need to be cleared up before Okay the point about is well but then we make a One I alluded to when I made the There is a difference between consensus in something held as a matter pertaining to the and a consensus held incidental to the Clearly geocentrism was at best held by most as a matter of scientific not as a matter of theology even mentions how it could be that Mary was sinless was held by a consensus as a matter pertaining to the It is in the consensus of the and secondarily of the theologians and that we locate that channel of revelation which is The claim is that there was a consensus both of the faithful and of long standing and morally unanimous about a matter held as pertaining to the and that this thus constitutes a theological locus which we can establish claims about And when approved theologians have moral unamity this also is evidence of the ordinary and universal So we have two theological scripture and specifically and the general belief about Adam and Eve in the Church for We then have the operation of the magisterium confirming the understanding of most in the authentic and in the ordinary and universal at least insofar as there was a consensus of So yes distinctions must be but my argument no different than the argument that the teaching on women ordination is due to the universal and ordinary But I do theologically as theology is a science and we aim at more than symbolic you are right about the stronger Just wanted to flesh out the argument of authority some Now my head is joints aching and fever running and I finally feel tired enough to In honor of Thomas affirmation about the gift wisdom allowing its receipient to judge and about ordering things to a prayer Concede michi misericors Deus que tibi placita sunt ardenter prudenter ueraciter agnoscere et perfecte Ad laudem et gloriam nominis tui ordina statum et quod a me requiris tribue ut et da exequi ut oportet et expedit anime Via ad te tuta recta et non deficiens inter prospera et ut in prosperis tibi gratiam referam et in aduersis seruem ut in illis non extollar et in istis non de nullo gaudeam nisi quod promoueat me apud nec de aliquo doleam nisi quod abducat me a nulli placere appetam uel displicere timeam nisi Vilescant michi omnia transitoria propter et cara sint michi omnia tua et tu Deus super quam Tedeat me omnis gaudii quod est sine nec cupiam aliquid quod est extra Delecte me labor qui est pro et tediosa sit michi omnis quies que non est in Frequenter da me cor meum ad te et defectionem meam cum emendationis proposito dolendo Fac Deus humilem sine ylarem sine tristem sine maturum sine agilem sine ueracem sine te timentem sine sperentem sine proximum corrigere sine ipsum edificare uerbo et exemplo sine obedientem sine patientem sine Da dulcissime cor peruigil quod nulla abducat a te curiosa da nobile quod nulla deorsum trahat indigna da inuictum quod nulla fatiget et da liberum quod nulla sibi uendicet uiolenta et da rectum quod nulla obliquet sinistra Largire Domine Deus intellectum te diligentiam te sapientiam te conuersationem tibi perseuerantiam te fideliter et fiduciam te finaliter tuis penis configi per tuis beneficiis uti in uia per et tuis gaudiis in patria frui per So anyone notice Joshua Kenz has basically been accused of the same fault as our first and not awake enough to read I just finished catching and I would like to my certitude of my certitude of my degree of error with regard to my certitude is in no way certain with regard to is meaningless to be one hundred percent I reread the whole general At no point are monogenism or polygenism mentioned at all a red herring So because those two words are not you conclude that the whole thing is Surely he is talking about original and also what original sin is is relevant to whether polygenism is as people of today we must ask what is this original What does St Paul what does the Church Is this doctrine still sustainable Many think that in light of the history of there is no longer room for the doctrine of a first sin that then would have permeated the whole of human as a the matter of Redemption and of the Redeemer would also lose its does original sin exist or In order to Nothing at all to do with Is what the Popes tell us about original sin This is exactly why Michael is at least to some degree justified in being annoyed with some of the attitudes displayed here in regard to the teaching of the It is also why I within the first few hundred comments that I think there is some truth to what Scott Weinburg was trying to though He died for yet do not all receive the benefit of His but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is For as in truth if they were not born propagated of the seed of would not be born by that they contract through when they are injustice as their if they were not born again in they never would be seeing in that new there is bestowed upon through the merit of His the grace whereby they are made For this benefit the apostle exhorts evermore to give thanks to the who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in and hath delivered us from the power of and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his in whom we have and remission of for they were not born propagated of the seed of would not be born it is because I read the whole audience very carefully and found nothing to support either Of course he is talking about original nothing he says at all in any way determines the concept of either its genesis or You are welcome to make the claim I am but I expect an not a claim that I must be cherry the section on evolution is SO GENERAL that you may as well assume he was talking about whether he was referring to the preexisting species Which is separable from the question at Please do not assume that I am a If you think that this is a case of neglecting Papal I would invite you to read my thesis defending Papal what are you Council of But I could be mistaken about my certitude of the certainness of the certibility of the the idea that the originating character of man that renders possible the first sin is mysterious has nothing to do with whether there were many first and the bit on taken from another is so vague as to be possibly referring to an entirely separate If it had anything to do with polygenism it would be AGAINST because then there would have to be multiple first sins or just all the missing data in the The fact that the nature of sin is mysterious does NOT make polygenism more You Certain enough that I know how to read Papal pronouncements I have had to read enough these last And calling me symptomatic of Take your passive aggressive commentary I will have no part in The only thing I have displayed in this is that I read the teaching knows I and that I ignore Trent in doing If you want to insinuate that I doubt the authority or am a heretic on that you had best look to the prudence of making such I have given enough years to studying and defending it Finally caught My take on last Michael Bolin is a sophistical Poor Kenz needs some sudafed and a good is a great going to be my is the name of my new punk band it was a the Bolin epistemology annoys the living crap out of Refuting errors is like medicine to Tom was talking to the other I Michael extremely confused by the Bolin I missed all the there was a an and an but the representative of In other I need to go read some canons for my So I will be Ciao Is the Incarnation the only thing Bolin thinks Catholics can hold with perfect Not trying to just to Someone explain this to We must distinguish between those facts upon which the authority is established and those which we hold only on account of the The former cannot be overturned by the since the argument would be Since the authority depends on the incarnate having established the Church cannot overturn The we should change our opinions about whenever our judgment that Church at this time intends to teach becomes more probable than our judgment that the Church intended to teach Quite someone who think sophistical that Michael Somebody tag him for position undermines all While not modernist per it leads to Scepticism paves the way for What boggles my mind though is that Bolin can produce no sure list of de fide dogmas and yet maintain that Joshua is I think that discussing epistemology may not be what amuses If Perescott ever reads this all his theories about the deficient way theology is taught at TAC will be affirmed the fact that TACers are on both sides of this and not a few of again on both have advanced degrees in whose position would scandalize Perescott and who is considered a sophistical modernist by actually SUPPORTS thesis not his arguments or argumentative that theology is poorly taught at More lectures and the inclusion of more magisterial teaching of the is the general thrust of the if I recall it And I have to go read new Good thing none of the posters like dump quoting a giant Latin texts in the oh see in a week when I catch a I think this debate demonstrates the impossibility of teaching Catholic dogma the way Perescott would like it to be day time so we need to switch to But never here at I miss all the Matthew that is a very surface level reading of the I think The Peregrine is right in this TACers tend to think the underlying issues in RC theology are all very not in any They never They never will At any time there are glaring and intrinsically difficult problems to own up whether it be whether or not this whole Christianity thing was meant to apply to and whether or not you could eat pagan blessed meats sold in the The first This is why not entirely convinced that becoming Catholic would solve all my doctrinal If Michael Bolin a modernist then the Catholic Church really give all that much more certainty than a careful Protestant read of theology gives the truth is very My certifiable certitudinal certainty of the certifiability of certain dogmas may not On the the fact not all nearly sorted out should get rid of your red flag Of course it magically solve all your doctrinal But a Protestant read of the real Protestant read of seeming like too much more of a trick than understanding Catholic theology at the moment your view is tainted because an adult convert to Catholicism Matthew Peterson tNET includes all potential Because it bifurcated into asinine Protestant alternatives between fundies and is an asinine understanding of Protestantism But the real problem is that you seek the truth too quickly from Much like Probably true if you want to call it an you need to deal with all of seen plenty of Protestant debates on the In this very issue under discussion has seriously injured and divided American Protestantism over the last century or How do you deal with the asinine liberal Nuns on the bus and Beautiful morning here at Loyola I ignore them well I ignore unitarians and Problem Samantha just the I get to write them off as The Other and pleasantly speak about my church as if all hunky They are part of the And many make good points on and Z partial except nuns on the bus are specifically and there is an authority within the Catholic Church to do so The idea of ignoring people are wrong breaks down as a hermeneutic fairly quickly You almost wonder what Faith is for the way people are so certain about what they are specifically certain I just wanna express my admiration for Tom who wrote a practically as long as his original Are you opposing faith and Matthew You sophistical modernist I I believe in magic answer even if a few are in some way true and and some more than You get rid of the all too human elements of there are clearly defined lists of propositions called the canons of ecumenical Hold a Michael Bolin seem to think I meant about the clearly defined lists of not about me being a sure Michael Bolin agrees about as far as I understand basically comes down to saying something like you can never really be sure holding the dogma as the Church understood I think he would deny that there are clearly stated propositions proposed for our kind of meaningless if you know what they mean The summary in the dr is notionally Which might be wrong I think it but still within what Tom summarizes any if understood with the appropriate the beauty of this I have to listen to Bolin strikes me as a bit to certain about his Something Beitia pointed out I Did you just block them of course I block no as an internet I have very thick Unlike I get angry with other even if they are or dense Weird George MacDonald was a one of the things Lewis criticizes him ugh I hatE I said it Til We Have Faces is a wonderful What kinds of hats does he And why would you be reluctant to admit but never read We have most of his kids books for free from project Lilith is it seems to be a really religious version of Travels epistemology makes theology professors taking positions professional makers of Theology professors Professional guessers Who the biggest The blessers or the Still they are impressive Accredited redressive Their And you finally start to figure out and something like a plot emerges Who here likes the Faerie  of I you like fiction Not all of I dislike the Space just Lewis really liked Spenser A fact which explains Michael Beitia I think we all agree That Hideous Strength is a And I like all of the Narnia But I deeply love Til We Have Faces FALSE FALSE FALSE Cohoe bite your tongue did not mean to tag Stupid facebook I liked That Hideous Strength Cohoe to you But I generally agree on Narnia the exception of the Silver Feel free to like but a failure Lol okay MRS Actually I did not mean to be fresh just And how on earth can it be a it is an incredible You Head in a The head was the best a bizarre mishmash of things And Merlin work oof just because you like boring realistic novels like War and  Ahem so is Dante and Milton I like bizarre You are kidding about War and  I refuse to believe you actually mean And I like both and when good Dude the part where Merlin freaks out about Jane not having had kids is such a great analogy for I need to start sleeping in the This literature stuff interest me I tried to resurrect the but the theologians are apparently If I had time I would deliberately make absurd claims to keep you ladies but I have to go to Piazza Later maybe go clean my Sigh Is nobody going to stop me from cleaning my at hang on sorry So advocating caution in dismissing a papal work that deals with original sin in the context of evolution as irrelevant to polygenism is actually A Defend the Bolin Today I learned that TIL is for Today I I like The Space Trilogy I also like That Hideous Strength  suggesting that the mere claim that some Papal work is misapplied amounts to a rejection of Church authority is passive aggressive and baldly a straw man and you know better or maybe you maybe you have the necessary epistemological grounding to say that anything is with certitude Are we operating on the assumption that all Bolins think the same Or that there is only one until I have evidence to the I object to anyone liking That Hideous stuff in there to if a certain kind of But for sure a literary Bolins all hold the Bolin going to The only assumption I have is that Dominic said that I represent the truth of at which I take extreme It would be absurd to say that understanding of nature has no bearing on the interpretation of texts and When one determines what is metaphorical or for this often depends on what one think is true about all manner of moral policies or regulations and even the phrasing of principles will change due to this change in understanding of what is as think here of understandings concerning when life begins and for instance or real developments in psychology and their effect on our understanding of culpability and much is a much weaker assertion than polygenesis they were not born propagated of the seed of would not be born interpret away fault me for trying to clarify this convoluted by moving from more known to less Or wait I fault you by I like the pick and copy and paste from somewheres in the magisterium game because it gives a false sense of security and Then read the whole context Matthew Peterson supports the Bolin the point of having defined dogma if you use it The quotes may or may not be but the methodology overlaps with the hermeneutic of inquisition overlay my answer key and reject everything that Difficult issues usually call for a less Treebeards are This is amusing to Ancient Scientific Hypotheses That Turned Out To Be Very Wrong I consider the argument against the elder Bolin separate from my resentment of accusation that I am anything like the deranged archetype in I resent even the mitigated claim that I hold even Aquinas prior to what the Church actually teaches in solemn I wonder that such a charge of denying Church authority is leveled at me over such a nitpick as audience is about sin and evolution so every or even any peripheral quote in it must apply to the polygenism Especially in defense of someone outright ignoring both Trent and the Frankly it sounds to me more like family loyalty than an honest Of defined dogma and doctrine is obviously But it resolve every problem in some simplistic answer bookish In doctrine often comes OUT of very CONFUSING debates that last a long  but it says something that is and can be used to falsify things that oppose doctrine Dogma does not  the dogma often comes OUT of very CONFUSING debates that last a long Prescinding from any verbal dogma comes out of such debates because the Church decides the faithful need clarity on the point at  Of course it does sure Samantha Cohoe I changed the verbal imprecision already It seems that the Trent stuff that keeps being quoted is pretty and none of the polygenism advocates are dealing with it if the dogmatic formulation clear and in some it would be In doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed If you want to pretend it was all clear to the church go right Peter even sure if the whole thing applied to The closest we got to was the suggestion that not infallibly sure how the Fathers of Trent took the word So he defined a resolution at the first ecumenical council The council of read Acts That while trinity thing sounded like MODERNISM to many who were very certain that God was confused as to who Matthew Peterson is arguing against And we no longer wonder if Catholics must be circumcised and we have councils telling us the propositions we must hold the doctrine of the Nice and The implications of them doctrines might not be but a whole Matthew I am confused as who is your verbal trident aimed at from beneath the flowing waves Edward your response reveals you are not understanding me very But if your logic is at some point in the future the Church will deal with these issues more Perhaps as the science becomes more believe in one The Father See God exists God is omnipotent any My point the evidence is that she already But quoted and the best gotten back is that not clear how Original Sin was propagated from Adam to the other I am confused about what is being so I might be this is also Jeremy Clarkson forced to leave Argentina after Falklands outrage The BBC presenter reportedly left the country three not cool to act like you definitely know what the Church teaches on a subject when the Church has defined it in an ecumenical the teaching unless you answer simple questions about since not at all or Trent says does it mean or another man by the same the real question here is how many men were named It is also interesting to imagine the competition among half a million women fighting for the privilege of being the mother of the human race and then ruining everything in a giant  be back Keep up the good Given that I seem to be in a middle ground between warring I assume that I am You should all probably just agree with me and talk about something moderation has no place on Tom Sundaram Joshua finally read this long I am aflame with love for your wisdom and love for your clarity and love for the charity with which you proceeded For it is clear that the love of the truth is burning brightly in your and not love merely of human truth but love of that divine truth which is I wish I were with you so that I in the style of the embrace you both and kiss How could I restrain out of my respect for what you have both done and my feeling that Kenz might shoot me with one of his numerous God bless in the defense of God bless you never then tNET slows out for the weekend have too much fun without Also if the can mean am I free to hold a Let me gloss Corinthians as it would have to be as by came by has come also the resurrection of the For as in all so also in shall all be made the official mother of tNET Someone tag me in if a Bolin ever comes back to defend Bolin but I think I can be I here from the beginning the candidates for father are Scott and Matthew Adoptive in the facebook foster care poor going to contribute to abandonment issues  The sharks are gathering  Did we all just agree to  maybe the buzzards are circling  or the flies are  the penguins are   the guns of the   What is emoji Yeah all I can make is winking  List of Emoticons for Facebook Here is our complete list of all Facebook As you can we have loads of great emoticons to see I see tNET has been reduced suddenly to and sentence as though a gang of adolescent analytic philosophers suddenly took over and are holding tNET for O so going back to talk about how evil Capitalism  I myself am an ardent The burden of proof is on those polybolinists who hold that there are multiple Bolins with multiple differing opinions and on those who hold that there are actually more than one Bolin holding the same But I like talk about how foolish Distributism Capitalism is First and foremost it is evil because studying it requires reading Adam wealth of Capitalism Joel Thank and read fewer emojis are like falling down a rabbit it is evil because it is typically founded on filthy filthy lucre leads to the evil is usually filthy I have student talk about how the division of labor is evil Since I wrote my thesis on hahahahahahahahaha it tends to monetize every human interaction it produces enumerated enumerated one of the chief evils of human That is wrong for the following six they have committed false they have spoken they are sixth and they have belied a they have verified unjust to they are lying taking a break from Tolstoy I Scotus has a really interesting instrument against an infinity of per se causes might get the details The prior per se cause is a more perfect cause then the posterior if there were an infinity of per se there would be an infinite cause a cause greater than an infinity of given because postulating an actual An infinite cause depend on A cause that depend on another is a first if there were an infinite number of there would be a first But an infinite number of causes lacks a therefore it is QED   I think been studying too much analytic Daniel what do you think about that argument from Katherine temerarious the very statements about transubstantiation implicitly argue that Church teaching can in fact For it would be impossible for such a change to be anything but a radical about and about farce a forceful farcical about face like there was an interesting conversation here view previous Did not see his comments about And off to It would seriously be nice to have this thing in some readable like a word Or many word anything one could We already considered printing it on toilet Tom I wish we could see some actual discussion of monogenism and original sin as such instead of whose nihil obstat we Why is discussion Since opinion cannot be as I am we need only ask him for his and we will then possess the infallible truth of the if I said says PBC said these twenty Popes said a Doctor of the Church whom we all respect said the Doctors who seemed to say otherwise were not according to trustworthy and someone else says well Ratzinger said this in one is that REALLY supposed to be something that confirms your street I think By you betray a lack of respect for the shepherds of the as pointed he was not in the case in is a great theologian who is no doubt aware of what the and the popes have If he expresses an opinion that you think is contrary to these instead of dismissing it out of you should consider rather whether perhaps he know these sources better than and that perhaps it is his after that is in line with not Samantha they were not born propagated of the seed of would not be born a sed Contra To all on this thread who are attacking the argument between Kenz and myself has moved to a rather more important I have stated on several occasions now that polygenism may well be so the arguments that it is in fact false do not pertain to the more important The more important debate is Kenz has claimed that his judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is is whereas I say that his judgment about this is It is difficult to judge how to respond to many of my other interlocutors without knowing where they stand on this So I ask Is judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is Note that the question I ask is whether the Church teaches that polygenism is but whether there is any possibility of error in judgment that this is I propose a thought experiment to aid you in this If next year the Pope were to come out with an encyclical on the subject of polygenism and original would you consider reading this document with an eye to learning more about the truth about polygenism and original as I understand is that he would know in before reading the that it would not teach that polygenism is a permissible In he has gone and stated that if the document did so teach it would prove that the Catholic faith is Would you follow him in Would you say to as you prepare to read the the Pope teaches in this that polygenism is a permissible going to reject the Catholic faith as moved beyond that to whether the church may change its teaching and how we know the Michael for the purposes of the truly important discussion here happy to posit the falsehood of The pernicious tendency to reject the teaching authority concerns me rather more than no one on this so far as I thinks that the Church may change its you have undermined the credibility of all Then accuse others of disagreeing with your own opinion on the unknowability of what dogmas are de You hide behind your own cloak of infallible While disparaging others who point to authoratative documents as you do the But this is But by all means keep on with your false humility about following the Church even per she were to deny what she previously asserted with infallible your answer to the question in my thought John can you cite a place where I have claimed to be Others on this thread have indeed made the claim that certain of their opinions are Joshua Kenz made a claim about the teaching of the church on a specific If he is correct the church already infallibly condemned then he is correct that it would be impossible for the church to declare otherwise in the He also here i cannot over emphasize my that we may know the truths taught by the church with That there are more and less clear issues does not change this in Who is this Polly and why would we not let her generate if married You deny that a list of doctrines of Church teaching can be drawn Can you be mistaken in that Of course I could be My judgments are not you answer the To be the Church declared that there is no salvation outside of the Church and at the time and for a long time after all took that to mean only baptized practicing RC in a state of grace at death went to The Church does not teach that Did she change or does this speak to the real humility and wonder in Michael as not a theologian I pretend to know every doctrine of the church As with we are more certain of the more proximate so we are most certain of the clear and truths of But I would read such an with absolute faith that it did not COULD NOT contradict the infallible canons of Are you then prepared to say in advance that if any future documents the Church puts out teach that polygenism is a permissible that this would show that the Catholic faith is I would have this confidence prior to reading the new so that Using polygenism is a bad example since there is not clarity about it being taught as Use something like the Immaculate Why the hesitance to simply say yes or Why do i have to think anything about not yet certain of what the church teaches monogenism seems overwhelmingly likely to be the But if the church were per change face on to use your then such a change would be demonstrative that the church did not have the authority to teach Andrew Something very much like that is what got Feeney into He with all the cockiness of that his interpretation of the dogma the Church there is no was and would have made all the same and Fathers and Popes claims that others here want to make about And how did that turn out for Bc not a Why the insistence on sophistical Why is this so If you are not yet certain of what the Church then why you just say would not say that if the Church later teaches that polygenism is this would prove the Catholic faith The Church as church cannot teach you contradict yourself For your only argument thus far has been that Joshua cannot know whether the authorities Joshua cites are You throw in a quote by Ratzinger that is not really It seems very strange to me to be reluctant to affirm that one would not reject the Catholic faith just because the Church later teaches something to be permissible that one was unsure about in the first Explain I contradict myself by saying that my judgment is not So if the Church as Church changed something she taught as Church then yes the Church would be If men in the Church taught something that was against what the Church as Church taught we would be in but the Church as church would not be false Someone correct but Fenney received back into the church without repudiating or I know that under no circumstances will any document released by the UNDERSTOOD IN THE SENSE IN WHICH IT IS RATIFIED BY THE PAPACY is not necessarily the form in which it is released Chalcedon and the canon concerning Constantinople Pope contradict a previous ecumenical I know that Trent contradicts polygenism very So Michael I would stake my faith on because I do that with every encyclical and ecumenical but the question here is about a Just to be you are saying that if a later Pope explicitly teaches that polygenism is a permissible you will conclude that the Catholic faith is the degree that it contradicts which requires an investigation My question is why now backpedaling into a separate think totally acceptable to let the one where you were being obnoxious to Kenz I have said that to the degree a later Pope in solemn teaching contradicts the proper magisterial understanding of an ecumenical the Faith has already been so I maintain that Why the sudden hedge about the degree that it contradicts That is not a sudden Read what I wrote It is the context of the entire So you admit that your judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is is possibly It makes more sense when truth is replaced with belief and dogma is replaced with How is that a Is that not clearly the whole to the degree an infallible statement of the church contradicts a prior infallible statement of the the gig is I agree with and have But it is not the question That is not a sudden Read what I wrote It is the context of the entire And cease trying to make me look like my argument is given from If you are a argue like one and cease pretending that your opponent must be a The question is whether our judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is is In I know why you are both unwilling to say that you would reject the Faith if a future Pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible It is because although you believe that it is you know that your judgment about this could be not the a fake argument based on subjecting every authoritative statement to significational You are essentially saying that it is impossible to declare the faith with certainty when it has been Then give me a straight yes or no as to whether you would conclude that the Faith is false in that you you just also claim that no one can ever know what the teaching Why this means have to privilege your imaginary pope over I After by your own false principles none of us would be sure of what the encyclical taught My guess is Trent would still be This is I gave you the only answer you will If you are saying what I think you are this is totally if you know what the teaching then you can give me a straight If you know with you should without hesitation say that you would not reject the Faith because of badgering into a rhetorical trap made out of glowing material and visible from I engage in this crap with anyone and I think it beneath fellow In your hypothetical is impossible on your own since you would never be certain if the encyclical actually taught that polygenism was possible or it is clear you do not reject Kenz but By accusing Kenz and never addressing the decrees of you mask your Kenz already has admitted to being mistaken in the You are baselessly accusing him except on the opinion of one theologian whose argument is not a contention you never Why you answer the Because not a a stab disguised as a presentation of this discussion is not about whether polygenism is and I will not discuss that question so long as the more important one remains being What i know in fact with certainty is distinct from what can be known with certainty by you refuse to answer because it is apparent to you that the correct namely that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible opinion by correct I mean I believe not only that you should not but also that you in fact would not reject the will require you to admit the Kenz is in error about this OK EVERYONE I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT WHAT JUST Polygenism was the original Bolin said it was quoting Kenz came back with Trent AND the Bolin then CHANGED the discussion to a claim that we can never REALLY know what Trent taught on the When this was pointed out to eliminate the possibility of Bolin redirected it to the claim that since proper interpretation of canons is and many fear to interpret nobody can interpret them This was not the point in the case of Trent the intention was Now we have tried to bring it back to polygenism and Bolin is fending it off by pretending like we are all heretics for asserting that Trent authoritatively censures as when in fact that was exactly what Trent He has made no licit claim that we are misinterpreting Trent from the nature of but instead tries to cow us away from proclaiming the canons because could be Very I can be If the Pope says I am revert to obedience on BUT HE Because I am the Pope says I am revert to obedience on BUT HE Because I am So then Kenz was in error when he said that if the Pope said it would prove the Faith he was correct in saying for which reason I conclude that while it is possible for me to it is not possible for the Church to do Hence my contention that he the question about certainty has run in parallel with the polygenism the whole Bolin is right Kenz that this question at least in this be answered not got the patience to discuss more ecclesiology as I have sworn it off for at least a couple more having had to write the thesis on Unless it has to do with canon I want to be part of the What are you First you say that you would revert to obedience if the Pope said next you say that if the Pope said this it would prove the Faith I agree with Kenz that there are items of natural knowledge that we know beyond any doubt and that there are several dogmas we can know infallibly to be true because of the gift of See the goofy thing is that this argument of Bolin only makes sense if we are professing to speak ex We but we are QUOTING AN AGENCY THAT your answer to my At a the propositions formed from the Nicene Apostolic Creed as stated can be known by the gift of Faith infallibly Slow While I think right about the certainty I refuse to answer the question on your I think that anyone could say the question about polygenism has been with This argument is a sorry If then why we immediately say that we would not reject the Faith if a future Pope taught that polygenism is a permissible As I would to thought I would I would consider polygenism  be done This is So then Kenz was wrong to say that if a Pope taught this it would prove the faith is but my head hurts and I have a friend waiting for me at I think I think he might retract that But experiment were phrased in terms of the Immaculate I would deny per the Pope were to use his authority to teach that Mary was conceived in it would be a definitive disproof of the Catholic Faith on its own Above he wrote that the issue of polygensim could be validly If I would like him to say because I see how this discussion can proceed with that hanging in the Bolin acts like his question takes precedence over everything including the clear refutations of his own Why you take a break from the posterior and attempt to answer the arguments against your such as that it contradicts obviously it is logically possible to give hypotheticals of papal teaching which would disprove at a the teaching on So It gets you Would you say the same about the polygenism And my guess is that there would be a similar response about the Probably the only hesitation I have is that I know the context of the Trent Canons well I think the only issue here is that some doctrines are taught less clearly than I was talking about the So if you have presumably there is at least some possibility of So then do you agree with me I think Daniel that Kenz was wrong to say that if the Church later taught polygenism to be this would prove the Faith It is possible to have infallible certainty about what the Church The problem with formulation of the is that the authority of the particular doctrine is itself under so any answer to it begs the The hypo is stupid on so many Including the vagueness of what is What does the pope actually This actually admission was only regarding pre ontological leap It begs the question to say you would not reject the Faith if the Pope taught that polygenism was a permissible then do you agree with me I think Daniel that Kenz was wrong to say that if the Church later taught polygenism to be this would prove the Faith I know what it would I would have to study the authority of the texts in question to know the answer to your If canons teach it would prove the Faith it would Yes it Such as what opinion on polygenism mutati the PBS and Humani those conditionals are not helpful because not under I agree that the Church teaches that what is false is it would disprove the Or more what Trent taught We cannot get anywhere if we are unwilling to make a statement about the particular I think you do actually but not And what is taught by Trent is a point at so answering your question commits one to a position in the current Edward Langley has But can we be certain what he It does not commit you to a position on whether polygenism is I am not myself committed to a particular position on that yet I affirm without hesitation that I would not reject the Faith if a future pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible we are If the pope taught infallibly that polygenism is on the then it could not have been repudiated absolutely by a I lean to that the Church has definitively taught monogenism because this is what heard from many sources that I  Thank even Kenz has acknowledged some dubitum about formulate statement in the opposite since still being on the just seem to be a definable It is okay for not all doctrines to be as clearly fair If the Church already defined then polygenism could be taught in the future without destroying the Daniel We even be prove this with a What if an even later Pope wrote another encyclical contradicting Would you then repudiate your The Pope in forbid Catholics to claim that monogenism is a doctrine of That question has a perfectly sensible but I answer it until you answer my Because sometimes there is a question about doctrine that is not defined until  but an infallible teaching has to be taught as binding at all places and at all  what is a question cannot be a question  I understand what you so question is still is not a definable Just answer yes or such a simple there was a delete and now an yes it To what are you this is questions like would you do if the Church taught that have a perfectly sensible answer as My yes it was in response to such a simple Kenz was specific in what he Is Bolin playing here on an I will throw out another If the Holy Father came out and gave an infallible proclamation that the Eucharist is not the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus then I would say that the pope Not the or not actually speaking saying that question is still cannot be definable because it seems to necessarily not bind all future Or some I thought That is fair So it would have to be according to the ordinary Which we can and should follow in good This may surprise but I think that is not I suppose the Church could define that a question is where are I think Daniel answered my question by saying would not reject the whereas Edward has thus far refused to say yes or Is that just to be what is the that you are referring the Holy Father came out and gave an infallible proclamation that the Eucharist is not the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus then I would say that the pope Not the or not actually speaking I have answered on one hypothesis and on another I  in true TAC not answering the because the question is about would you would actually You do I am not surprised that you find that I only phrase it that way because I refuse to get this is an absurdist joke I I prefer Protestantism to the sophistical modernism of I bought in you being an evil genius Am I that your answer to the question was that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope stated explicitly that polygenism was a permissible if the pope declares that something that was declared otherwise then it declared otherwise it must not have been declared Is this Do we need a five year He a for one would you specifically say a if the Pope made such a investigate to see if the various declarations could be is not an hermaphrodite duck in a man you your I also enjoyed the debate and agree the underlying problem was epistemic and not the issue of I would also like to hear more about  And I know that I can articulate what a formal contradiction between revealed truths would look because of worries about I also see enough evidence to call Michael a absurd Daniel you the choice to imply that you think it at least possible that your judgment that Church teaches that polygenism is is the knife in the but not a generalizable OK for now if not You that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope stated in a teaching document that polygenism is a permissible If a future Pope actually did state I reject the Faith because it would be impossible for him to teach a You that Kenz was mistaken to say that if the Church said it would prove the Faith Orwellian I judge that as far as the truth of the matter What does that But I know that I myself do not have sufficient certainty to reject the Faith on that The sophism is so Whither is Bolin Is he basing his investigations of polygenism on the hypothetical retractions of an imaginary I know the truth of monogenism nor the authority with which it has been not talking about whether polygenism is So do you mean then that you personally do not have that and so would not reject the Faith in the hypothetical but that Kenz might be legitimately certain enough to reject the faith in that Bolin is being a and fooling a few to in if Francis stated Benedict XVI might have enough I have a better hypothetical to illustrate the Suppose a future Pope proclaimed sola also censured by Trent and the Would THAT seem a reasonable If you see my annoyance at the current affirm it even if Edward I may not be but sometime else may I think many here are missing What is it that you are nope his modernist point has been stabbed home not entirely sure about Matthew I think some see the point and do not want to run into which is why they refuse to answer the I think we we just know that Bolins like trapping poop Darn I wanted to be comment and as far as Feeney and Unam has anyone actually read the then it matches the previous That Kenz may be legitimately certain about some dogma where i am I said as much But Kenz also as I understood that it was heretical to suggest that polygenism is a permissible which suggests that the claim was not merely about his personal certitude but that all Catholics should have But I do want to add that as I follow this I am not really certain why there is so much anger being directed at Michael More on this Classes to Let me play advocatus Bolinensis for a People keep on saying teaches polygenism is but clearly Trent concerned with the question of and so a of that passage of Trent would be totally different than to deny the doctrine of original sin is what that passage And then they cite Humani Generis Tom Sundaram in keeping with his habit of misattribution attributed to but HG seems to be saying that polygenism is but rather that the faithful are not at liberty to hold it because it is not clear how it could be reconciled with Sacred Scripture and with if I were to hold I might be committing material that follows from the nature of the thing he has certainty So if you are not yourself why would you hesitate to say a future Pope taught that polygenism were a permissible I would not reject the I tend to think all Catholics should obey ecumenical councils Pater I am referring to the passages cited from Trent by Josh But take HG too if you Feeney was censured for denying BOD Pater Thank but is it not clear that at the moment there is something more fundamental at stake than the truth or falsity of Can one be certain of dogma of the faith or must one hedge the church may tech otherwise in the in all to quote the But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect Nor can an implicit desire produce its unless a person has supernatural he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek The Council of Trent declares is the beginning of the foundation and root of all without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His The interesting thing holding monogenism run the risk of material since there are no definitions at Holding polygenism does run that As to my of I believe that is a bit more exaggerated than Feeney never repudiated and was in good standing at his I would like to get to the general but we seem unable to get past the particular because folks are afraid to answer a simple  read the it the universalist we hear these Joel was just teasing about the misattribution plenty have answered What is your answer if transubstantiation were Answer my question and I will answer Michael how do you distinguish your issues about personal certainty of of from that of a I perhaps have missed the places you made this I did answer all calm We really need to wait and see what scientists decide about Original Sin before we make any claims to theological certainty on the Michael I still think the specific case is helpful for understanding the underlying IF Trent had said anyone teaches let him be then the question would be But since it only touches the question indirectly calling Adam first and saying that original sin is a single the case is there are too many people flinging out baseless accusations and poorly positions for it to make sense to deal with the more general question at the St says hi everyone Just a helpful I asked Joshua above about whether the possibility of polygenism could be discussed taking into consideration the considerable obstacles to authoritative and otherwise and this is what he of being but argued It is in no way permitted to hold this is how he starts Why does that would you change your position if I answered in different Pater Edmund is saying the same thing I am Michael do you agree that IF an ecumenical Council were to say anyone teaches let him be then the question would be But of course this  was a good interesting thing holding monogenism run the risk of material since there are no definitions at Holding polygenism does run that Given that HG interprets Trent I think that the polygenism question is a bit more determined doctrinally By the this is Huge humpback whale waves at tourist boat as it leaps from the ocean The taken by marine tour guide Steven But that still speaks to Or at least my point I am making in Some doctrines are more or less clearly Pater The question would be closed in the way it is closed with other such such as That we could be sufficiently certain that the Church was teaching that polygenism is false were she later to teach the we might be more certain that a contradiction was taught than we are of the arguments establishing the authority in the first And as Daniel said about it could per that the Church was Some church doctrines can be known with infallible not so Just I am not afraid to say that if the Church clearly taught that I would reject the Church as a legitimate teaching that is not what I I It is what I Daniel Lendman What if the Church said the whale never really left the Can having the gift of hold the dogma of transubstantiation with less than infallible beginning to get the sense that a significant number of people here actually agree with what Kenz initially though some are reluctant to say since something false cannot be believed with divine But the difficulty is that we cannot be absolutely certain that we hold a given proposition by divine They are making a distinction which was lost in the enjoyable and theological sparring you two were having Have to but leave you with a quote from St To be right in we ought always to hold that the white which I is if the Hierarchical Church so decides believing that between Christ our the and the His there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten our holy Mother the Church is directed and First rule of infallibility is no one is Not even the Pater I think a hyperbolic way of stating my basic At risk of stirring the what if polygenism turns out to be true and proven God loves Joshua is right that such a position is empirically impossible to prove Andrew think this is This is the gorilla in the If anyone says that it is possible that at some given the advancement of a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and let him be I might add that this is also the problem with use of Thomas pointed out to me by another Thomist by whom I ran the It is true that the gift of wisdom judges but to have the including requires and Thomas himself says that we cannot have absolute certitude that we have we cannot have absolute certitude that we are judging a given proposition by the gift of My wife says have completed step of Catholic renewing that is why the study of Church teachings is so And Church way out of my league but do we not have corpses of Neanderthals and have genetic proof that Homo sapiens breeded with Would we then just say that they are both the same species and there is new understanding of the variance in our I see how polygenism could be absolutely proven by It seems to me that the possibility of human interbreeding could always explain any But position also shows why obsession with many dogmas do we study at is a silly is I suspect that Scott thinks dogma is even more black and white than many there is no question about what you call the gorilla in the I am going to go breath with both lungs of the Church and pray the I will remember you all in my Dogmas cannot nor can the Church teach contrary to what she has previously Church history is littered with Listening to at Geddy through man sin entered the world As far as I can most of the argument is a commentary on the the advancement of I still get Why did Michael Bolin bring up the per impossibile example about transubstantiation last night if he think it was a doctrine that could Maybe not talk too Plus not even supposed to be If all Michael Bolin meant was not sure understanding Trent then why he just say Original sin is a sales You create a problem that the customer know he Then offer to fix I did say and And I do not think that dogmas can John why do you insist on Samantha did say though he appears to be walking it back Bolin has shifted his position several times  They were comparing another dogma with the dogmas surrounding creation as an extreme Playing a game how far do you believe the infallibility of the Church can go it appears to contradict itself aka scientific are you saying that I did say that dogma can If either provide a citation or or done with Look what you people have driven me Look at How can you be certain of what I any one in the sacred and holy sacrament of the the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the and of the whole substance of the wine into the species Only of the bread and wine conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls let him be Just tangentially My problem is that you believe that Faith is And that you said change your views on transubstantiation and now say you And that you argue Other than we have no You I said that there is no reason in principle why I could not become more certain that the Church is now teaching that the bread remains than I am that she formerly taught that it does I stand by I also said that I could become more certain that the Church is teaching a contradiction than I am of the arguments for the I stand by that I would also like to point out that Pater Ignatius quote entails a view that is repugnant to So I we affirm a lot of the same but we seem to use the words to mean different a hyperbolic way of affirming a view that is quite in accord with Faith One trusts the church to teach what one ought to but by that same one trusts the church not to blatantly contradict itself in infallible per it did so contradict than by that hypothesis the faith or the church or reason is Take your To conflate view on with dogma of transubstantiation is quite close to the heart of the problem that folks here are My pick is that the Church would be untrue in that there a prima facie inconsistency in saying that one could hold x proposition only by divine faith while at the same time maintaining there are grounds to question the certitude of the assent to such propositions of that x position is not the The truths of faith are not but that does not mean that our judgments about them are not Are there limits to imposed by the canons of And here we come back to the bolin epistemology in which we apparently cannot be certain we understand even what the Church clearly teaches Interacting with other people on Facebook makes me appreciate this place so if Kenz can prove that the church taught infallibly on regardless of if HE can do if he is right about the fact of then for it to contradict itself means either the church or the faith or reason itself is not in the way some here wish to but certain in the way people normally use the That is But it is in accord with my and it is not what Kenz was as I understood and both of choices are at that is some really weak bit more determined still fully and while in can you tag Pope Benedict in for No conflation on my I say we DO have faith with obviously not everyone will know everything with the same clarity and all at Just rejected views I held once on the authority of the So by certain you mean almost certain Michael I mean the issue is that the truths of the faith are not held in a probabilistic mode when they are held as That my faith is certain is not a probabilistic Am I missing I mean that we are certain of many things about which we can nonetheless be Three Michael the or revelation we have That is held by divine faith is is But when you say hold X specific by divine that is not My point Michael I think that that is the hashtag gnosis is a running joke here I I think we can be certain that otherwise the whole thing is a joke But nonetheless what you said is actually  That one may be a material heretic and then instructed into the correct faith does not contradict the certainty of faith in demonstrated to me that Monothelitism was contradicted by the scriptures freshman what Descartes but it is not the true nature of the human so have I do not claim that my judgments are unlike others There can be but you can never know when you have  you Literally absurd So do we know that we have certainty that polygenism is a pivot Certainty about to sounds like motion to a slippery one Do except certain his judgments budge on that the kind of regress that can only be prevented if cut off at the first just certainty just like just  Not  then do we have certainty that polygenism is Michael Bolin is why do you get bogged down in particulars We had him pinned and he slipped away I know what certainty the Magisterium has about I have some certainty but not complete I think it can be said that we understand some dogmas as well as But you are calling all dogmas into God created the of this I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that is because I have actually had the discussion many and have thought it Others here are afraid to answer simple questions because they are afraid of being because they have not thought these things that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain My point that your claim that you be certain that you hold a dogma by divine is a specious Doctrine of predestination comes to my have some certainty but not complete Remember that this whole thing started with me being accused of heresy for saying that we do not have certainty about A dogma either has the certainty of divine Faith or it does and that at least in on how that doctrine has been it is not but obviously Otherwise we could not disagree about which things are dogmas have the certainty of divine But we do not have absolute certainty that we hold any particular dogma by divine how do you not get killed crossing the solipsistic the common saying of that the religious man must ponder his  more not that counting out your salvation in fear and is not the hot nor the cold but the lukewarm I will vomit A matter of divine faith can be posed to you in such a way that you hold it with the certitude of divine But that is because you hold it explicitly by the virtue of divine that proposition is virtually contained in your virtue of Faith and explicitly as an for it only has the certitude of In which we cannot be certain that we hold a particular proposition explicitly by divine As MacArthur faith has greater certitude than any knowledge and less one would be less inclined to doubt something held by divine Faith than I of  But holding something by faith mean that we clear on the details but can have a greater certainty than things known by other any lack of certitude would seem to indicate that that matter is not held by divine but is a natural  One might die for God but not for prop That is But the faith Bolin describes seems wracked by innumerable uncertainties when it is most certain of Polygenesis even the tenable kind is most Supercanonisticexpertallegedgnosis Certainty is that feeling you have just before or during the  Michael does seem to say that what the church teaches must meet with his rational assessment of Perhaps I read his comments carefully  On the other I would rather say that if the Church taught something as doctrine which mesh with my I would assume the flaw was in not in the  It is crazy to use an irrational example of would you do because the Church cannot contradict the truth if now it is starting to sound like how about this That Adam was not created by God subject to death That whosoever says that the first was created so that whether he had sinned or he would have died in that he would have gone forth of the not because his sin merited but by natural let him be I agree with Michael I am certain that the consecrated host is the Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus  The Faith like a little child an angel is greatest and most Indeed as we increase in the virtue of faith we become more certain trials of faith But I am only certain that I am infallibly  certainly certain  what about the canon I cited just is it a clear teaching of the or should it That whoever says that the first evolved etc etc I like that Everyone acts as if all this stuff just is known the same way throughout The conversation is premised on the fact that understandings change over God is What does that Enter God is What did you mean by saying God is And all those Seemed to rule out this possibility God can never be Still But also Enter theology and philosophy debates a bad Look at the canon I just and the Creed mentions the so the definition of has oh you moderns with your fine distinguish with a Now for a particular case that may allow us to see the general Suppose whom call Leonard asserts the by explicit divine that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and that baptism of desire does not avail for Since what is believed by explicit divine faith cannot be in I cannot be mistaken about my Therefore baptism of desire does not avail for Now another whom call Alphonsus asserts the by explicit divine that baptism of desire avails for Since what is believed by explicit divine faith cannot be in I cannot be mistaken about my Therefore baptism of desire avails for Must one of these two men be or is it possible that each believes that he speaks the I understand these examples to be the same kind of But maybe lacking sleep anyone says that it is possible that at some given the advancement of a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and let him be Matthew Peterson advance of knowledge is explicitly irrelevant to the understanding of Or is that a false Quit posing stupid traps and speak Edited for good did not mean faith in the theological I will not discuss this further with anyone who will not answer that No one has denied that we can be mistaken about particular articles of As your example it is often about the harder to grasp articles that are as in this case not clearly BOB you are saying that is possible for both men to believe that what they are saying is Fire all But I cannot judge the internal forum and know whether they have lost You are trying to draw a rule from an So you admit that it is possible for someone to honestly believe that he holds some doctrine by explicit divine and yet be What is your That we cannot know with just because we think that we hold something by explicit divine that we actually do hold it by explicit divine In other the claim to the made by most is you draw your rule from the In my BOD is We can replace it with any doctrine and the same will So you deny the certainty of faith and the certainty of all dogmas because one can be mistaken about a particular But the doctrines are But we can never be certain of any doctrine because of a mistake on an obscure You part ways with your comrades in saying that one can be mistaken about a particular I that they will not criticize you for I think most have But it is our condition that although we conform to almost all doctrine and with divine faith and certainty yet we can be wrong about a particular No one denies I think it affects our certainty but may help us with humility and But you seem to draw from this a false uncertainty wrt all I think you fail to Consider my example except instead of one party says that he by explicit divine while the other says that he by explicit divine Is it possible for both to believe what they Less likely I should say So here we finally have the means to distinguish doctrines about which we can be mistaken from those about which we When another person not sure X is a we have only to peer into his and if he is we know that X is a dogma about which we cannot be This has been said but one may be wrong about something one thinks one is certain But this stop the fact that one may also be correct and certain that one is Wilee Coyote always not Can one be because maybe one is I reject this specious Being in error feels exactly the same as being  knows Custer died at Little Big What my faith presupposes maybe he Just like for the poor it feels the same running on land as it does to run in the The between the coyote and is that the roadrunner is how does one distinguish between cases in which one is certain that one is yet is and cases in which one is certain that one is and is in fact The position proposed by so many here requires that there be a means of so yet no one has proposed And eventually the coyote That is how he knows he is in Do you have a suggestion for how to so in the case of the when you run into an you For We need merely refer to the not the same as any pope before elected btw But eventually the coyote always Why does there have to unsure that there does need to Slippery Michael Bolin is saying that no one can be certain they have certain But that means no one has certain So in what sense is faith what Daniel All you need to answer my question You believe that you hold the doctrine of transubstantiation by divine Suppose there is another person who is just as sure as you that he holds the doctrine of How to why does my house not clean my robot Modernity is the I would prove I am right to the confused soul by pointing to clear Church I hold the doctrine of but not as certain as anathema sis because he is wrong and we are And this person would be equally as confident as you only that the doctrine is of but not equally confident it has come down to know that I cannot be wrong because I am therefore I cannot be No one needs to answer your Socrates you And you rarely deign to answer others such as Samantha I just point to the clear confidence comes from the fact that his Church has infallibly taught it it has also clearly taught And I can point to that I know that the Church has infallibly taught this because the Church has infallibly taught not Wiley coyote off the Kierkagaard leaping into the I guess too jumpers proving who will leap the farthest in the most  Do you only read the responses you want to the whole The opponent will also believe that he can point to Church he knows its true because the Church infallibly taught it Find an opponent who believes consubstantiation based on Church in this instance he Such a person cannot The Church is too clear on this Such a person has a seriously disordered ability to you are confusing the unlikely with the You simply fail to recognize that some doctrines are more clearly taught than Do not draw rules from can truth be known with And can faith hold an dogma with It is unlikely to be which is why Catholics in fact propose that the Church teaches But any time we are dealing with a case in which people actually disagree whether something is both will be able to point to reasons for thinking Not Slippery Michael Bolin refuses to answer my excellent What one can point to a document that lays out the matter Not all doctrines are very clearly If no one has certain in what sense is faith you have yet to say why you cannot be wrong that Church teaches other than to reassert that the Church teaches Which is why I think it is still okay to discuss polygenism as a It is certain in the sense that what is believed by divine faith cannot be in What is the difference between a doctrine which is clearly taught and one which is why do I need to say more than not certainty certainty resides in the mind of the knower I know that there is a black and white difference I dare to make a If I have but not then my faith certain Because if you can say then I can say cannot be wrong that the Church teaches because the Church teaches I simply point to the more known and understand the less known by That is the natural you say because the Church teach and that is completely but Michael the Church not only does not teach consubstantiation it condemns But if we cannot distinguish them in are we just relying on intuition when we say that one is clearly taught and another is Knowable as a fact and knowable by I think this discussion is nearing its People are actually taking am to be an argument for why they are anathemas tend to be clear Anathemas are super one of the things you guys have going for you the creed is clear some cases are not The as Michael Beitia points is very does not translate to am who said only if you persist in error are the anathemas unclear do you mistake the source of My infallibility does not arise from People are claiming that the Church is clear enough that anyone can understand her when she speaks clearly It take infallibility to be able to understand clear statements My infallibility about the teaching arises from the infallible This is what I People believe that Church is implies am in that I am not The Church is infallible and teaches certain things to be Is there a reason to think that the clarity is not just a matter of Where does what you are saying What that the Church teaches can you know with The kind of certainty you are looking does not exist in the human mind apart from the beatific Is that supposed to be an answer to my Bolinese So you think anything the Church teaches can be known with certainty until with   Not in the way that you seem to understand  all of us suffer from the at one time or to want to be like all take note of For the one more Michael Bolin does not think anything the Church teaches can be known with certainty on this side of Bolin you are confusing the certainty of faith with incontrovertable spirit of this plan of reform may be summarized under the following A spirit of complete tending to weaken ecclesiastical the emancipation of which must traverse every field of investigation without fear of conflict with the the emancipation of the which should never be hampered by religious the emancipation of the private conscience whose inspirations must not be overridden by papal definitions or the emancipation of the universal with which the Church should be ever in A spirit of movement and with an inclination to a sweeping form of evolution such as abhors anything fixed and A spirit of reconciliation among all men through the feelings of the Many and varied also are the modernist dreams of an understanding between the different Christian even between religion and a species of and all on a basis of agreement that must be superior to mere doctrinal The essential error of Modernism CATHOLIC Modernism modernism means an exaggerated love of what is an infatuation for modern ideas For real this This seems apt as they lay the axe not to the branches and but to the very that to the faith and its deepest And having struck at this root of they proceed to disseminate poison through the whole so that there is no part of Catholic truth from which they hold their none that they do not strive to none is more none more astute than in the employment of a thousand noxious for they double the parts of rationalist and and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into and since audacity is their chief there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and To this must be added the which indeed is well calculated to deceive that they lead a life of the greatest of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of and that they as a a reputation for the strictest and this almost destroys all hope of their very doctrines have given such a bent to their that they disdain all authority and brook no and relying upon a false they attempt to ascribe to a love of truth that which is in reality the result of pride and Pius Pascendi Dominici Gregis Encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis of Pius September PIUS X That is you would all do well to reread Pascendi and take it to In the beatific vision there is no need for the certainty is you have basically made faith been but I think the time has When argument comes down to be wrong because perhaps an examination of conscience is in I just got back from I am certain of how about this can I be certainly certain about this If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus who was crucified in his human is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy let him be Joshua Tom Joel Michael and all others who warned us at the beginning about where this was I So what is the certainty of divine It seems like it has been admitted that it does not mean that one cannot be in error regarding whether a particular proposition is held by divine So what is so where did it And how has it Are we in a world without Are we all unsure of everything around I must stand with Joshua Kenz and repudiate and denounce what Michael said about the faith and our ability to be certain about It is vile and damnable the very substance of the condemned modernist heresy as outlined by Pope Pius We should all We should especially invoke the intercession of Our Exterminatrix of It was a good I think Bolin is modernist but headed Faith is a submission of intellect to what the Church Bolin seems to not be able to say what that And its not always easy the faith Our certainty is derived from the Maternal care and wisdom of Holy Mother She bequeaths the unerring light of faith to all her It is not clear that he denies that doctrine communicates truth which is at the heart of that If one can never be certain of what the Church then truth and doctrine have not been not I hope up I am very If a Catholic is uncertain of what the Church does that mean they do not have  off on retreat for the weekend pray for your I think Adam and Eve win for the longest topic thread and it has been hit before end Pacific I do not think that is a serious I was asking it Is there some flaw in the question that makes it   here we go if a Catholic is uncertain of what the Church that does not mean that he does not have it is evident that certainty is being used in many I just want to know what you think it means How about you show some respect for my and and just tell me what you think it have truth and doctrine been communicated in that I am not sure what people are using it to It appeared to me to be most likely that it was being used to mean holding a proposition such that no possible experience could change your assent to that how about the one denying certainty defines what he denies I Some things people have said indicate but others indicate something contradictory to So I would like to have more clarity as to what it means to be certain of and how that applies to what is held by if you have how can you deny Did I ever deny you denied I only asked how one could justify certitude in some cases and not in was it your brother It certainly seemed that He too clear with respect to natural knowledge know what he would say about first for I think speak only in Bolinesque questions from now does that seem You have to admit that I have made some Beitia is a I have to get dinner for my We can come back to this In three of my last four comments are That depends on the will of We are certain because the Church does not err when proposing doctrines for our We can err by mistaking what those are or even misunderstanding the Moreover that clarity of expression varies in time and But the truths are most certain because revealed by God who does not They are most but not absolutely because we can be mistake and not Have seen this Pope removes bishop of Ciudad del Paraguay Pope removes bishop of Ciudad del Paraguay this is welcome Unless a bishop enabled abusive Pope Francis removes Paraguayan bishop Commonweal Magazine This morning the Holy See press office announced how is that different from what Michael was The certainty of their truth is from their being infallibly proposed by the and yet they are not certain to on account of our possibility of making misunderstanding what in fact is  have not written to you as to them that know not the but as to them that know and that no lie is of the So I will always remind you of these even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have Peter Becoming better informed in the faith and increasing in faith by acts of faith increases Michael seemed to deny one could know what the Church I want to shear off some of my vanity and apologize if earlier I showed a lack of We might or might not disagree I hope not but I spoke as I tend to when I get frustrated to a certain It is a nasty habit and I Taking correction removes The faith is the most certain kind of In all I think the parties involved in this rigorous debate may not be using certain words in the same finding a lot to agree with from both and some things I quite understand yet from both When my blood gets to boiling it is bad for my ability to discuss and using this stupid phone to write everything helping always loved that phrase the TAC founders advocated I understand you rightly to be Thanks I too was perhaps as you know we Bolins certainly like to be I think that is needed at this point Goodnight the problem with polygenism that people think a collective Fall is Assuming i understand what polygenism work wont be off til nine not sure I get Michael seems like he could hold those things as long as certainty is on the part of the not the one receiving Is your position different from when you say is the most certain kind of do you mean that it is most certain for or that is it most certainly Hey you guys just let me know if you need any funny photoshops good It is also most certain for us and we can find out what the Church How does certain for fit with the possibility of you indicated that we could be mistaken that a given proposition was of divine It seems like naturally what is most certain for us are the first principles of and we cannot be mistaken about based on the canons above it seems that polygenism is But a collective fall is Most of the teachings of the Church are not hard to The more difficult are for us less Of course understanding on our part is very limited at the same Thus kids can understand a catechism but no one fathom the mystery of the None need little more than a simple Catechism and that can be entirely certain more than a mathematical It is certain truth both in itself and in our I guess it is still not clear to me how one could say that something can be certain in our belief and yet we could be mistaken about Do we agree that this does not happen with respect to the things known by natural you made me laugh so hard I started to not be able to breathe that an individual Adam actually committed a sin and through this man fell is the Polygenism is hard to reconcile with that because were he not the head of the human how could all mankind fall through the sin of an I still hold that there was a consensus of theologians and the therefore But to Pater there were those advancing polygenism way before the So lets not be too hasty in saying it even an WRT I told this to Lendman and will share it with TNET weird consequence that dawned on me in the says I cannot have the certitude of faith that I am in the state of If such certitude is only moral that put us in a But normally we understand that we can have moral certitude of being in but not And Trent goes on to say we cannot have absolute certitude that we will unless we have private But the virtue of hope involves So moral certitude it but we were just told that we cannot have the certainty of but if that is moral see where I am Trent becomes I think I answered the question of error Our faith is not absolutely certain because we make But we are most certain because of the virtue of Faith and the one so it is the most certain the certainty of natural but not absolutely popping by to mention that no one is answering Dominic like watching a White House press it seems I am getting some answers central point that we are not absolutely certain of what is held by this is all we need in order to admit the possibility of our being wrong about these Or was it understood to be something  wrt first principles of these too we know with But no one contends absolute certainty of the beatific Michael seemed to deny we can even know what the Church Is there doing the same work that absolutely certain would I am absolutely certain of the object of understanding of the faith is more or less and thus more or less I think the way certitude is even being used in the question a modern One can have in subjective to a greater or lesser need not this greater and absolute versus So children call all men then they learn to There is a certain absolute certitude even in their but this is not the same thing as clarity does not equal clear and and so the child can make an error in use of the name and call all men There is something like this with will does give reason truth there is absolute and infallible certitude in our cleaving to the but the clarity in which I know it may learn to Now there is not a magic line where I can say proposition X I am certain of and proposition Y I am But that is true of natural knowledge as I with absolute that That the postulate has been proved to be unable to be I know this by moral expert mathematicians tell me and I understand some of the At what point does my mathematical knowledge change I do not But I think I need The same with since it is a central proposition and has been made explicit by the organ of I will say I am absolutely certain that Christ was one and that the bread and wine change into On the other I am pretty certain about the Thomistic account of Morally certain But with some possibility of Where is the line between propositions I know with absolute certitude through faith and those I am only morally certain from know Can I err in judging my own Sure Does that I mean that there is a chance of error in any and all No more than it does in natural or in Am I in error over polygenism being definitely but maybe I have experiential which can be perhaps arising as such arises in when one gets defensive against a haughty But even with the qualifications I have given I would say this I am morally certain that such is definitively So if that is I hold it by and may have been mistaken in my But I still think it is clear that the position on the other side is impermissible to That is not the same as And Michael will note that I never called him a heretic over polygenism matter how he wishes to paint it are you confusing moral certitude with that the certitude we have in our And do we not retain the virtue of faith even in loss of sanctifying grace outside of Still waiting to hear how this can be dismissed as irrelevant Similiter etiam donum cujus est spiritualia quae intellectus judicare sive ordinare sive infallibiliter et recte judicabit et ordinabit de omnibus quae ei sive sint apprehensiones sive et in hoc quaedam similitudo deitatis in homine cum Deus a providendo et judicando nomen secundum quam homo filius Dei manifeste Likewise also the gift of to which it belongs to judge or order or approve the spiritual matters which the intellect will infallibly and correctly judge and order all things subject to both apprehensions and and in this a certain likeness of the Godhead appears in since God receives the name from providing and according to which the man is manifestly shown as the son of No infallible  I am not confusing the pointed out that Trent implies certitude of faith moral but is Your second I have no idea what it is saying with respect to the gift of is it true that we can have the gift of wisdom without a response to your prior But it was an example of an operation in here judging spiritual that happens and I included it originally with other examples of say the infallibility of the senses with respect to their proper I was not claiming it was about the virtue of only that an exclusion of absolute certitude due to an objection that our mind is not misses the aspects even if our judgment in general is very fallible I agree that we can make judgments without the possibility of error in some The question to what extent can you know that a particular judgment is With respect to the gift of that presupposes can one be absolutely certain that one has charity order to determine whether or not one in fact is judging by the gift of I think your question is talking about a meta awareness of what is going The infallible produced by is you are susceptible to strict perception or So it is not an example of knowing something with absolute But it is an example of an aspect of even if only Along with the other meant to crack the But I the judgment here is not a judgment of knowing something but rather moved by the in fact one will not but he is only morally certain that he is being moved I you agree that some judgments can be made without then we are in essential how do we know that we know a particular judgement is without the possibility of I take as a first principle that I can know and I think it is only after going out and trying to know that we can reflect back on the character of we do that in metaphysics in particular An endeavour I am still just I know that I you Explaining the how well I admit that I fully worked that M Bolin presumed that we given thought to this but he and I have given lots of thought to it will be a while before I can articulate a complete Is that And how at we can do that with respect to things naturally known and things known by faith is most likely going to be I have a lot to including grading papers and midterms by and I think all of tomorrow is taken up with other so I probably be back here for a And who knows what state TNET will be in by who knows that they know that they know what the state of tNET will be by Is it knowledge turtles all the way  FOOLS AND IT IS ANGELS ALL THE WAY you can joke Peterson but you in the form of a or can My problem is clearly I do not engage I was engaged just to my who care that tNET is a jealous depends on what you mean by You throw a lot of darts and seriously entertain tNET Also your idea of the development of doctrine is tNET kinda creeps me out a it You troll the trollerybread a bold Facebook Thread Bites the Hand That Feeds I found tNET frustrating to follow arguments I wanted to deal myself into had moved on but then Tom Sundaram made my day the Dude I do what I when I which is way more than I I find tNET mostly because I never instigate but can just pop in every so often when someone is really say something just citing a reference to Thomas and then sit back and watch my contribution be either entirely or get a few likes and subsequently be This may be entirely beside the point wrt the discussion above about certainty and but Artium speaking You guys always seem like you want to go on these high flights of fancy and talk when you generally even clear on the basic philosophical meanings of so you become confused amongst I find the entire conversation above a bit but this goes to deeper problems I have with the entire framework in these The things that are or are often the most difficult to One understand them One can be certain of something in one way or to some extent or on some level but not in its So the entire black and and off switch above is just a bit ridiculous to to be at some points there were specific claims made that could perhaps admit of such black and white answers or But the claim that emerges out of our smoke and mirrors that is most interesting to me is really very we fully understand or contain even the most and that ought to make us wary over time from circumscribing too To know something and be certain about it is not to know it or all the way through or and often our distorted knowledge of other things necessary to know the thing we think we know gets in our But none of this ought to worry or turn them into skeptics or It is simply the way it It is not only natural science that gets things partly and then discovers and realizes it was only partly correctly but in light of some higher truth now known actually more is added to what was formerly known in a way that changes I mean is anyone on this thread a trained You said And we are all writing fast amidst doing sundry other so slowing down and defining terms is not common and I think many are aware of this problem but on we This thread proves that anything can be something about your larger comment above strikes me as profoundly Can you say more about I but the Are we only talking in questions Is that how this know something and be certain about it is not to know it the entire black and is just a bit ridiculous to but when citing Church documents SPECIFICALLY written so as to be and black and I see that as a defect in but maybe in the question So I said more There is no defect in saying God is Or that we actually see But adding triune to that changes And our understanding of what color actually is changes alls and it was But I must be missing because I still know who quoting know something and be certain about it is not to know it I think pretty Peterson just above at the risk of playing Socrates like Bill and what do you mean when you say to me it sounds I would read it that way if I know like a bunch of fluff to avoid coming down on the side of I know what color most people And they are rightly certain about But that mean they fully understand what red or fully understand what they are or see all the shades of that is different from a dogmatic proposition I know what a deer But even the strictest Thomistotle would admit they know it To do so would entail knowing being also different than a dogmatic proposition In one this is even more true re dogmatic clear and the But not You understand the terms Or what they portend and contain within but that should not stop us from saying we have absolute certitude what is do you understand that and what is contained and portended in Why use more could come from it that you even know Insofar as we can know what they But we can overextend their meaning and too quickly apply I We can think we understand them a bit more than we What it means to be for What substance and what person Any one part of those pieces of understanding is broadened in terms of knowing the other In some way I know what truth And so does But not just so simple If it why do we learn from reading all those pages of Thomas talking about not fully have it your this weak opposed to appeal to ignorance is However you may quibble about the is really clear and black and If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus who was crucified in his human is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy let him be oh crap I know what of the Holy means turtles all the way do like the whatever slip above where you so dies calling the NSA right It is a true statement and many more can be Without however a fuller understanding is not and for all writing on the while worthwhile is still To put it another way the difference between simply saying God is one rather than many is greater than saying He is one and knowing what that means as far as it is humanly Truth is achieved when you are able to identify and discard the irrelevant bits instead of incessently arguing about The more irrelevant data you add to the the more you end up with gray Everyone is arguing about theology and dogma and but theology but it is just the People would be better off seeking their own truth rather than waiting for someone to pedantically define it for One problem with the clarity of Church written with the deliberate intent to be is that language is not because of the very nature of human conceptualization and even the most accurate depiction of that which it some account of a nature or a Church involved in a web of feel like putting up teasers for my Not that it has anything to do with Church but it does have an awful lot to do with still rather have precisely written documents than the stuff modern theologians tend to hard enough to get people to be clear after a sit down but this is if not hundreds of people contributing over thousands of bizarre to me that what I am saying is Do you think most Christians of good will understand of what has been written about the is besides the point in matters of Strictly know one understands As I people seemed to dispute what those terms in that anathema meant for thousands of And understanding deepened and if the claims of Christianity are But within that process the status of who this Christ was and this person was worked But the Church generally proposes dogmas for assent in language relatively easy to Nicene Most of religion makes no sense at all to I The dispute was more about how to formulate the doctrine in it always is much more difficult to discover than to learn what others have when all required of most people is assent to a clearly formulated can do for is one of the very first propositions presented in the If one thing that put me off being a true Catholic is reading a Catechism If no it raises more questions than it it makes you WHY would it happen like then it just pushes me not pulls me the Catechism is more of a reference book like an encyclopedia or It provides helps to but meant to be the most elaborate statement of the various It would take a lot of interesting argument to try to make sense of it In my worst imagings of I think the true would behave as Unless he were seriously and there have been many systematic expositions of the doctrines contained in the John Exact Exposition of the Orthodox the Summa of Alexander of and whole libraries full of books attempting to make the various doctrines as intelligible as I just think Catholicism tried way too hard and ended up a quixotic That actually generally I would say it was true in the first few centuries and is becoming true Maybe as far as contemporary expositions For about they had enough they have to massage the It But being a Catholic generally involve keeping up with the latest Where I respect Catholicism is the philosophical not the theological  The rest of it can get in the way if you overthink The middle three are more properly theological than A little of Being able to admit sin and make amends is a big step in being a better My first wife was incapable of And she was Catholic Aloysius Wilson you can make it to by On the What is it to be an if nobody wants to read what you philosophy or the act of writing is for the sake of the For the sake of the how is it best to connect with them and transfer At this Pray for your own souls the NSA already Connecting with an audience relies on being able to tell the audience something they already to get them initially This is often and it helps boost the confidence in their own At the same you must destabilize the readers so that they can perceive value in what is After equal parts manipulation and Now Connecting and having common ground are Very but why are they reading Me in or why would they read sort in In But I like your thinking so I guess you made three points destabilize information It can either start at the what you are manipulating or why you want to coming up on keep her May this thread break It would seem to me that pontificating absolute certitude polarizes the causing some readers to examine more carefully for the slightest error and others refuse to read This goes back to who is a better author Plato or Destabilizing is something that typically goes at the and manipulating is done throughout the not sure what you And pontificating turns people But ways around so not necessarily an example of what I Mid century shirts are really The statement is meaningless and relies on an immediate recognition of the word and whether or not you By allowing you to make a judgement and have your own opinion about century I have failed to create sufficient value to encourage But what if I wrote can agree that clothing is often worn to create a desired whether it be a conservative dress to indicate something about personal or a jaunty cap to reveal we are indeed as fun to be with as was initially And though that be a commonly accepted truth the poor man of the century did not need to buckle under such societal free as he was to defy economic advantage and As industrialization swept through the clothing industry likewise and thus was born a The first Since fashionable clothing no longer required the hands of a even a poor man could afford to appear wealthy and command respect for his thoughts and opinions in the public For the first a poor man and a rich man looked the If I did my job you read the whole thing and now you want to learn Maybe thinking about how shirts were a great equalizer in the sphere of and then maybe you might wonder whether that had an impact on the power and rise of Or maybe And I remember actual lines from the I only remember generalized principles and conclusions from For the whatsoever things are whatsoever whatsoever whatsoever whatsoever whatsoever of good if there be any if any praise of think on these of  An Aristotelian Realist Philosophy of Mathematics as the An Aristotelian Philosophy of Mathematics breaks Critchley on Nature in Terrence Malick A Piece of Three Steps To Writing The Perfect LinkedIn Summary Your LinkedIn profile is one of the most important WILLIAM ARRUDA Ways To Know If Your LinkedIn Summary Is A Winner Or A Snoozer First impressions have gone People are WILLIAM ARRUDA I want my audience to feel really confused by my linkedin Greatest Film Scene Cosmos sequence from of of is owned by in a dark with sound all the way In light of what said Are there any other theologians on here aside from Tom and Although Tom is going in to Canon so aside from heeeey Dan thinks a I feel like I earned I feel like I would want to read examples of what a Socratic dialogue would look like between Socrates and Derrida way more than ever I wanted to read other rhetorical strategies include giving random people money to shout the it could not be periodically during It seems to me that to the one who has the fundamental propositions of the faith and are heard as though proposed by God Such are held with the certitude of A certitude that is greater than any speculative So everyone is tired after the whole certitude if you are up for more we could take this to say but I am not But what about what I answer but not certain you said I may Not no such thing as or just the truth it is epistemological turtles all the way we have to be sure that sure that OR we can be sure or Catholicism is based on All religions truth is going to be your is just the Solipsistic SOB Or maybe Just my I take offense at being labeled  what happens when you deny objective I hate to be the bearer of bad But to wash down the bitter medicine of being called the honey of being called an SOB a difference between facts and science and Truth as described in religion is simply a strongly worded I think something might rise or at approach the truth if all the religions in the world agreed that it is Imagine the doors that would open to John if he did not exempt his own statements from his universal I claim perfect just throwing it out Not willing to kill anyone over That is a good definition of When so anyone who disbelieves it need to be Or has to be tormented for Or shunned for you make truth claims all the time while simultaneously denying anyone the capacity to know what is Unlike willing to state that pretty much everything I say is an I make claims about the I have never said it is universal truth and anyone who disagrees is going to Nor that it is unassailable or Have you not repeatedly denied that there can be knowledge of universal  asserted that people fill in the blanks in their knowledge with And that if you claim the truth and that others who claim the truth are you ought to bring more than guy said so thousands of years Or guy is yours is If truth is why does only a small minority agree with So do you or do you not think that we can have knowledge of truths that are I am not speaking here of religious I I would not bet on The great thing about universal truth is that you have to anyone on Agreement is not a measure of If you propose the Pythagorean theorem to students who have never considered it they will quite reasonably doubt the truth of this And even after the proof has been shown to they may still doubt that it is But the truth of it does not depend upon a If you think attempting to convince students that the Pythagorean theorem is true is an example of trying to them on then it would seem that one does have to folks on universal Pythagorean theorem can be proven both mathematically and Prove that Jesus was known to be the son of or claimed to or was born of a virgin birth I specifically said above that I am not speaking of religious The theorem works because anyone can test it repeatedly and it holds It is not the repeated that make it It holds up to repeated tests because it is but that is not the measure of its in it to why Gauss wanted to measure huge to see if it would You said universal Give me a non religious universal If it were simply a matter of repeated then we would have to be open to one day discovering that it is not true based upon a new but that will never The Pythagorean the principle of  No dispute That is simply the simply a definition by Please What is the antecedent of in your comment principle of simply a the actual word to describe it fails me at the It is not a truth as it is simply how two definitions of words work and work leave the principle of to the side for a do you grant that the Pythagorean theorem is a universal I put it in the category of It is a mathematical It is proven via math and it holds up to How does this work with virgin What do you mean by Difference Between Fact and Truth Difference Between Fact vs Truth Fact Truth What is the clear difference between a Can you state what you mean by so that we have to involve a third I agree with the For many consider it to be that Jesus was born from a virgin But there are no facts to support It is simply Truth is Facts have evidence and I will have to read the article then and get back to But now we will undoubtedly be involved in interpretation of the Such as it is with all written why is Your assertion and belief is no more powerful than good to see that there are two different understandings of the word Here are that are years old Word Search the Noah Dictionary of the and study this dictionary to learn None of that matters if you agree and hold that definition Are you still denying the objective world around you and that its existence does not depend on your understanding of It is not my desire to be more powerful than I am well aware of your fear that someone is trying to kill you or put you to death merely for disagreeing with My is merely to get you to see that you consistently exempt yourself from your own universal the article you posted says that facts are more objective and truth is more according to the article you cited are just something that you but rather these are more or less the things that can be observed or by the I would like you to since you agree with this what is the basis for saying that facts are things that can be observed Is that a according to your In other can you empirically establish that facts can be observed Can a fact be Pretty differs from that of years ago and will no doubt differ from that in the A fact is a it need to be It may be true to but not to someone Depending on how you define Is the distinction between and to your a fact or a an if I am following you you acknowledge that your definition of fact is based on a truth Or as I more properly call an Then for all is Truth assertion when not based in actual And even asserting that the sum of the facts when that may be not be correct or may differ from But for facts themselves are dependent on a truth or A common is that Abraham Lincoln invaded the South to free the And that he was unrelentingly So you really say that the pythagorean theorem is or a But the facts actually support those What is the difference for you between truth and  not trying to be antagonistic just trying to understand your I see much difference as I prefer to equate truth and I see then why you are so power oriented in your and why you constantly bring up fear of being forced to believe For you speaking is just about getting power over other No in your can know facts or truth since both reduce to Is that Truth seems to me to be the opposite of I might have an opinion that agrees with what is is objectively observable or And mathematics would be one of the things that would be most obviously because it is one of the most objective and provable out Objectively observable and provable I have no problem with To me factual true I would say math But when we get into philosophy and truth assertion The problem is that John thinks facts themselves are ultimately mere After the distinction between fact and truth is an as he stated why I like to use truth as philosophers and religious advocates use It sullies up the word with simple belief or People get the relation It is not is true because I have faith in but have faith in it because it is I have faith in Why do you need faith in math if it is I I mean if it is objectively Though if something never fails you tend to have faith in The funny thing is that the notion of objective probativity rests on the assertion that there are things which are Jeffrey Bond problem is that John thinks facts themselves are ultimately mere After the distinction between fact and truth is an as he stated That is a poor I think of faith as that you believe is true even though it been proven to you by It is something that has been presented to you as and you accept it until you find something that is more if Facts were facts before they were asserted to be sure my stated opinion is and be happy to be corrected on assert this as accept that assertion and choose to have faith in I have zero problem with though I find it becomes dangerous when it is claimed to be based in universal which based in For I accept the assertion as a fact that the sun is a ball of flaming gas even though I have not observed or proved this Is this an example of what you are talking why we have the structure of We tend to accept as facts those things that survive scientific though there are clearly things on the periphery that are not so much factual as politically based Science has gotten so with everyone wanting to prove everything as that some of it is simply not to be So in your understanding truth is a set of assertions that you personally have accepted as I remember being taught that rotting dinosaurs gave us That never felt remotely accurate or logical to Or is truth not even related to Truth can be related or not related as commonly used It is SUPPOSED to be based in For facts may make an apparent but there may be facts that take it in a different not yet entered into We teach the that the South started the war with the the facts that were unreported to school children make the truth seem quite a bit Catholics teach the that Jesus is the son of they admit that Jesus was but not the son of Which is the universal Dogma is the ultimate assertion of a but has no facts or science to back it I would say truth in history is limited strictly to actually happened at the When it is point of view and bias are automatically going to be just because of the nature of the way humans experience and remember complex a very simple eyewitness corroborated by many witnesses who are not colluding to deceive In difficult to speak of truth least of the objective at all with reference to the way history is my fb keeping up with the Truth is facts are  Bend with the The left claims one thing about the the man who wrote it said not true years Left says not qualified and OUR constitution truth is what I say it movie quote a sort of Red Queen kind of Not truth at why I think that people should seek their own but should treat them as personal Then they are less likely to be upset by those that think So again just considering truth My wife is on a mission to save but patient and works Though I do worry that ambush me one day with some sort of Catholic It can be based in facts or logic or But it is an interpretation of the world around But I use it that teh way others use Why that just called when you say it means it conforms to facts or logic or It is an authentic A story about the will of course be different for each statement should go with my comment I almost never use the word in a Except more than I do in a whole because TNET is most interested in in and everything else discussed on here is subordinate to finding out what that objective reality is that and number of a lot of bickering about what the truth is at The comment count is probably the most accurate thing said also and that there are so many interesting things to most of us would not bother if not trying to figure out what is the objective reality of any one of the topics discussed At Perhaps I should speak for just trolling TNET can attribute much of its existence to tried to at times just to keep it but realized TNET needs no TNET is also tons of I only regret that I live up to the trolling of A La  Your definition of faith works for human faith but in speaking of the supernatural virtue it appears similar but is a belief in what God has revealed and we believe it on his Some matters can be arrived at by reason and others but I would say that my statement above is still true in that I can only believe faith supernatural truths insofar as I know they exist assent to Perhaps that is a distinction between personal faith and whatever that That of course is not saying that there is no truth beyond what I believe or can give assent to quite the The goal is for faith to continue to go further into reality so that belief is continually informed by the One thought before While ad hominem arguments are not really arguments at I suppose that they are all that is left in an argument such as this once a person commits to a position such as You have again and not only in this particular but elsewhere with numerous other made it clear that for you argument is about getting power over or at least preventing another person from getting power over I have therefore repeatedly pointed this FACT here and elsewhere on not because I want power over but because it has been my hope that you might recognize this and ask yourself if you really only want to engage others in discussion for the sake of determining who is more For all including are ultimately reducible to mere assertion even though you strangely deny holding this position almost immediately after you have asserted And so the snake swallows its own Even the law of upon which all speech depends if it is to have any meaning at is nothing but word play in your Your is really with Truth because you do not wish to be measured in any way by anything outside of your own It was for Michael Beitia to call you a because you not only practice but you also preach though it may well be that you do not realize that you do it is useless to engage you with additional You do not need a new you need a new and I truly hope that you are given  we dealing simply with a different understanding of the word That makes discussion about truth but the answer seems to be reaching back to find common I think helpful for people to you accept the principle of contradiction therefore we talk with Your ability to help others along the road of truth is derailed right at the beginning where it needs to at some point I think that any rational person must agree with Aristotle that a person who rejects the law of does not need a new but rather a different After such a person rejects the very basis of meaningful I have repeatedly made a good faith effort to converse with John to try to find common but I have reached the point where I think it is I am not of that others should not for they may provide John with the very new experience that he But the problem here goes much deeper than a mere difference in I think this is the problem with the declaration of It is not tolerant fo debate or difference and has always been the case throughout It seems that when John says he means based on belief and It seems that if we are clearer on what we all mean by the word we can get I wish you all the best in that I stand by my experience with John that the problem goes much deeper than She seems to be doing quite well because she meets people half We discuss our so we all see things John accept the law of a What are you going to do about Perhaps if you think discussion is not a helpful forum or you have better things to Errand my wife may sentence me to hell for now and Catherine not sure if you were speaking to me when you said are you going to do about If you were addressing I think I have already explained that I am not going to converse with John any I think it may be worth pointing out to in case you did not realize that John is now engaging in a false alliance with you to protect himself against what he perceives as a threat from Once a person like John reveals that speech is only about you must take him at his word for it explains his For power politics at this point requires him to make nice with you to fight off the from I am not attacking of but that is the only way he can interpret my Why are you taking it  Those who do not accept the principle of ought to receive they should be and until they admit to be and starved is not the same as to not be and A very funny that Unfortunately John will take this joke as confirmation that everyone who disagrees with him is trying to put him to death or send him to The only reason pushing is that I see this happen that people get to this point and talk with you any To that means that if trying to help people on our common That is also a kind of Lol but everyone has tried to help  Saying that am not going to talk with you any can be said for good reasons and bad I think the record shows that I have made every effort to converse with John and be fair with But if someone rejects the very grounds of should we not at some point take him seriously when he asserts that it is all about and therefore walk But if arguing about the word and you even know what the other person thinks when you say then not going to get very Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the thing outside the Though perhaps you went through all that already when I Refusing to admit external truth fact and denying all logical argument but thinking that math and science is somehow excluded since he thinks that stuff is I just butted in without reading all those Way to   However entirely know what that Jeff and Jeffrey really have But it is an impassable impass as both Aristotle and Avicenna point Too read   outside the presupposes a modern Veritas est adequatio intellectus et A res can be in the mind just as well as That makes Oh and according to I invented the Uncaused cause He liked that has ever said it that way that is I was just trying to speak with the common To show I am and Why is thrown around like a Because it is all nasty and In which No one should refers to the heresy condemned by Pius can refer to all kinds of Modern philosophy refers to all philosophy from speech has If the day ever comes when someone says to you that he is speaking to you only to get power over then you would be right to walk That would not be To think that more dialogue is always the right path would be to play which itself would be a kind of It is ambiguous where post modernity Modern philosophy begins with an erroneous presupposition which is unconsciously followed by all of its both the or and the presume that the ideas within our minds are the direct objects of our Modern architecture is associated with the Although now we have begun Modern poetry is identified mostly with the likes of Eliot and Ask a poet about this Modern art begins with Modern is a Did someone call for a The term refers to the vague notion of a common idea uniting all of those things called What is the first modern  Literature is also in the postmodern I suspected as I define as the response to the alienation from and culture that resulted from the effects of is an attempt to recover our connection to and culture by looking back to times where we thing that connection still Oh Modern Began in the early I know if that helped But it certainly helped pad my Where is Edward Langley and his anyhow  Modernism in poetry is hard to pin I think its roots might lie in Walt but it really crystallized in William Carlos Marianne Moore and Ezra That is probably post nouveau Or at least I used to be The world of World War I was fertile soil for the alienation of I was just finding it funny in posts yesterday that anyone would use the accusation that a certain belif or thought would be As if to label someone or to admit to a given label is a vile There it was used to accuse the person of holding the modernist defined and condemned by Pius a modernist are Or calling a statement you modern are the theatre was changed To something Modern Wallace Stevens Document Last EDT a quite the same level of note a My favorite was being accused of being a a specific heresy in matters of the is not comparable to modernism the movement in No clue why I think all a bunch of and should suffer the wrath of a lukewarm hot Is the beer Although the word bears a negative connotation among Some of the greatest English poets could be categorized as only slightly below room Ha ha What then is modernism the movement in I think I was just accused of being a pelican Do they have The Wallace Stevens poem above is a great It is practically its own Is that what defines not sure if I could define modernism in or just list some of its Please hold on talking at cross purposes Please do list some of its specifically has its root in a philosophic error that Pius calls agnosticism Brian Kempe It lays the axe to the root of striking all Specific style being given a chategoriAtion is very interesting especially when the classification changes due to an external after x is no matter how many times I tried re typing the chategoriAtion it freaking autocorrects to having a capital My impression of modern in is a breaking away from former forms and norms of with a view to express the whole panoply of human with little to no regard to traditional standards of I would say that the most significant characteristic of modern poetry is that formally attention is paid to the composition of the single line more than to the structure of the whole Another general trait is that poems should be written in the and could take as its subject even the most quotidian This was likely a reaction to what was perceived to be the excesses and floridness of Victorian And misspelled And now beginning to think actually a deep connection between Modernism the heresy and modernism in My Is mark twain a A not a They all stem from the same Is that spirit a rejection of Of course a little misleading to talk of in since the language of a even if is best if what do you think of my general impression above have to ask what kind of form is being Even Eliot was a highly formal though his lines appear on the page like a sonnet or a Do all forms of modernism express emotion and shun intelligibility Pius X points out religion becomes mere easy prey for pseudo You said above that the line becomes more important than the So too the word over the The emphasis of form in modern poetry seems to me to be on the individual not on the structure of the Certainly emotion seems to be very modern painters just attempt to paint emotions without Regarding modern It seems that modern art is more in the intent and interpretation as opposed to the So this meets the emotion requirement without I even heard of some poems  Which All the one word poems I saw had long In other are the modern like the modern simply following modern philosophy in rejecting form in favor of add a little to point and say while modern poetry most often pays greater attention to the single the more prevailing trait is the abandonment of a consistent poetic structure throughout the in meter and stanza I would further suggest that modernism in both poetry and modernism the heresy both stem from modernism in for whether one follows the line of empiricism or the line of one ends up with the mind being the final arbiter of the real and therefore of the heretical we might clarify by adding to it the less ambiguous term progressivism as a belief that progress as an increase in efficiency and a decrease in pain and toil is necessarily the largely in the error that man is the author of his own and modernism in poetry consists largely in the tendency to attempt creatively imposing the raw structure of own conceptual patternings on the relatively malleable material of a Do they need to know the form to reject Or for the the form is the accidental outcome of something mysterious in the to say that Eliot an absolute But consider this lovely poem by Joseph titled heart weighed down by so many I think this is an excellent It sheds new light on the thing and helps reveal it as I Picasso was a master of but he chose to break from The equivalent in modern literature is the elevation of character over says that plot is the first principle as it the soul of a He compares it to most beautiful laid on will not give as much pleasure as the chalk outline of a How the worm has I think the naturally gifted artist does experience the world differently from the rest of us and expresses their experience in their They have a personal style and intent in their actions and the work produced does reflect back to them who they if they know structure and form and break from it is one thing what if they do not have the how would the style be It just seems some categories are intentional and some not sure when a category of style is best perfected by the first of its kind or by another who adopts the At times it seems that modern art is nothing more than which can be as Aristotle colors laid on But the absence of form would separate it from because it would not be intelligible without Daniel what general impression did you In Brideshead Cordelia asks Art is all it Charles replies must be absolutely Rimbaud Yale has a class on modern I guess you can access the whole thing for Open Yale Courses Modern Poetry This course covers the body of modern its characteristic and it Ezra Pound I once read all of correspondence in the rare book room at the U of I remember quite well his insistence that he and other poets were doing something quite new and quite but for the life of me I cannot remember why he thought This does make me want to pull out my poetry book collection in the Old book So Of as Plato it may not be best to ask the poets themselves what they are trying to Brian Kemple wrote would further suggest that modernism in both poetry and modernism the heresy both stem from modernism in for whether one follows the line of empiricism or the line of one ends up with the mind being the final arbiter of the real and therefore of the heretical we might clarify by adding to it the less ambiguous term progressivism as a belief that progress as an increase in efficiency and a decrease in pain and toil is necessarily the largely in the error that man is the author of his own and modernism in poetry consists largely in the tendency to attempt creatively imposing the raw structure of own conceptual patternings on the relatively malleable material of a I think Brian is on the mark but I would given that the present subject is poetry and that the modern mind also sees itself as the final arbiter of not only the true and the but also the I continue to that modern art is modern by virtue of its rejection of form in favor of the celebration of unfettered comment makes me think of what Thomas wrote on the relationship of the good and the and good in a subject are the for they are based upon the same the and consequently good is praised as But they differ for good properly relates to the appetite being what all things and therefore it has the aspect of an end the appetite is a kind of movement towards a On the other beauty relates to the knowing for beautiful things are those which when Hence beauty consists in due for the senses delight in things duly as in what is after their own even sense is a sort of just as is every knowing since knowledge is by and likeness relates to beauty properly belongs to the nature of a formal Part Q Is then the rejection of form the link between modern and modern I think be helpful if you clarify what understanding in this instance by and what would be apart from Form apart from the proper or the thing Since criteria for and seem to be derived from the visual it seems easier to talk about painting than about but perhaps these criteria can be extended into the other fine arts as I am of what Boethius meant when he said that the form is like a light by which we know a The or in this what makes a painting intelligible and pleasing to whereas the colors the confusedly laid on make the painting neither intelligible nor In the Aristotle likens the plot to the outline of a portrait and likens the characters to the colors laid on without sometimes I think the distinction is too easy to But then again I think it applies best to works of art human making Following Brian suggestion he may want to disown what I am thinking that modern which decries intention and purpose in natural is following modern philosophy and which sees no higher purpose or intention in the natural but only random For we see this rejection of natural form in the architectural or rather which exhibit themselves in the infamous Pompidou Center in Here the guts of the what is taken to be the the pipes for the plumbing and the ventilation shafts for air conditioning and turned as it so that they the outward appearance of the the point of this technique that the form is a an since the building is the not the womb transplants are a thing My Way News Medical Baby born to woman who got new womb Medical Baby born to woman who got new womb End of the world John will take this joke as confirmation that everyone who disagrees with him is trying to put him to death or send him to Strawman I have never said The Pointilists also come to Implicit in their it seems to is the view of nature as composed of bits of the structure and organization of which is not in the natural things but in the mind of the The forms here are not but rather accidental pieced together by the viewer who makes meaning out of the chaotic sense data which he modern art seems to follow modern philosophy insofar as it views form as that which is constructed by the human mind since nature provides nothing beyond the raw This I took to be Brian that modern man thinks he can know his own but that he cannot know things as they really I think the record shows that I have made every effort to converse with John and be fair with Assertion not based in actual history speech has If the day ever comes when someone says to you that he is speaking to you only to get power over then you would be right to walk That would not be To think that more dialogue is always the right path would be to play which itself would be a kind of I think you have solipsism on the I even know what trying to David Bowie Pablo Picasso Pablo Picasso is a song written by Jonathan Richman and performed here by David It is from the I appreciate the vote of The as I see with someone that asserts that there is no truth from the nature of the comment is analogous to the There is no truth always falls into whereas the Randian all actions by means of their architectonic principle of Neither can be reasoned and neither deserves the time spent so I think nice to make a distinction between the modern conception of form and the properly Aristotelian to the form is the intellectual conception of the thing such that the real presence of form as a principle in the things themselves is any notion of an inherent telos of those things is such that the imposition of any form whatsoever is entirely and not an there after only and its present configuration is the Aristotelian notion of form and matter is such in beings the essence of which includes matter a specific kind of that of a change in there cannot be a separation of form from form is not only that whereby the matter is as it but that whereby it is at every bit of no matter how has an innate an ordering in and through its form as that which makes it to be the kind of thing that it and necessarily therefore also determines that to which it is in And again this goes to the issue of if there is no way whereby the form in the things themselves is capable of being to at least some by the human who perceives those things then form remains an arbitrary construct of the I think that agreeing with so long as he agrees that I agree with him about what agreeing to agree It that there is no it is that truth is misused quite a bit in philosophy and It almost always misused when is applied to Brian do you think that the separation of that I is part of that modern as in systematic Misused Not quite sure what you Separation from knowledge separate from knowing that I that the intelligible form in some way corresponds to the intellect in Aristotle but in the modern conception the mind knows not and the of that I becomes the issue since all knowledge is purely not real Word It is typical of modern epistemology to assert that knowledge is characterized by which requires a that I but not so sure about a Knowing that one knows and knowing something are separate acts in Thomas but in the inverse for since certitude is required first in the generally critical turn establishing the certitude from the side of the knowing that one knows is required in order to know anything For knowing something first is required in order to know that one But I might be speaking past your  I do indeed agree that we are Brian You set forth the distinction very The question is the modern artist in virtue of his conviction that such as it is merely a construct of his That is to is he modern insofar as he rejects form in the traditional sense and celebrates instead his creativity and than seeing himself as an no I think getting at the heart of my that is fleshing it out a little still a little miffed at odd epistemological Certitude has been on my and the focus on it yesterday brought this do you ever read Colossal An and visual culture I have never seen Is it it is very Some of it I some I But it is very modern I think that expresses it As Abrams wrote in The Mirror and the there are four common approaches to the interpretation of which I think are applicable to other forms of art as These are as in the attached the the the and the I think that they are in any way mutually nor do they apply only to the but also to the Ancient Greek sculpture is a prime example of mimesis in whereas in modern poetry you find unabated If you were to strip away the such that there is no mimesis as left with the in turns out to be something in the in a broader two ultimately subjective approaches to the work sometimes there are sculptures made of repurposed sometimes things that actually look like traditional This conversation just reminded me of it is a daily read for I will have to look at Abrams more It looks Based upon our present it looks to me like the modern artist leaps madly into the void which modern man calls and asserts himself as the true the demiurge or god who fashions a world according to his own As you previously there can be no imposition of any form is all configurations are equally Rather than attempt to express universal truth through the modern artist seeks merely to express a self now disconnected from any objective Untutored by and with an unfettered he creates a free association of He does not reveal he makes Once recognized as Now my paintings really like their but I got to watch them make The problem for the modern artist is that he can only create in a qualified and not in the absolute sense which belongs to God and to God The modern artist seeks to but he cannot wholly do without think Jeff Neill was making this point earlier in this Consider the Cubist school of which Picasso is the supreme Because it is not really possible to create absolutely new Picasso must represent the natural form of a for in such a way that it is not so completely distorted that it cannot be recognized as a and he does so by way of an intentionally confused and confusing imposition of still another natural But what is this if not the perfect parallel in the artistic world to the modern philosopher who claims there is no objective In order to reject he must implicitly assume that very truth which he who seems to be attempting to undermine nature as a cannot even express his rebellion against form without relying upon that which he wishes to I just dug out of my files an article from years past that I had saved because it came close to deifying the artist as the true It appeared in the of the Fine Arts section of the New York Times on January The author was reviewing a Jackson Pollock exhibit in the Museum of Modern If you care about you live for exhibitions like in which an against the heavy odds of his skewed talent and unhinged pursued something so untested and mysterious that its full meaning was unclear even to yet wrung from his peculiar system of painting one variation after Pollock was a quintessential American because of his aspiration to make something from what seemed like Sometimes he botched the but this was intrinsic to a process that consciously flirted with on which his art had to be held in tension with acts of extreme and the exhibition is instructive for letting you see some of his which by contrast clarify his Reading this review some fourteen years I am still The line about flirting with is Unconsciously flirting with There are so many fantastic artists of all kinds just that they are hard to as they are in most times and Thankfully the truly great like Merle Haggard Side of are never hidden from the public I think all art is about the although that seems most I do think that art in general is a depicted form but in alternate and that a modern tendency is to abstract more and more form away until the audience has to make some kind of leap to understand what was People like it in the same way they like solving puzzles since the parts can not be understood without the But in this people do not always like extremely accurate Almost that without mystery it is but The more factual it is the student may actually pour over the details looking for a tedious I think this can also be seen in poetry and any of the The problem being that the audience is so accustomed to flawed art that they doubt even accurate work and deny that it could be understood as I just want to make the comment that calling someone solipsistic in an argument is the philosophical equivalent of It has no real substance and is simply a manner of diminshing someone argument because yours standing Not talking about anyone in particular Jeffrey Michael was it the part that reminded you of speaking of modern has anyone else been to the Barnes foundation museum in i am guessing a few of must Ashman your post only liki like  more posts to break the  mark on this post to bring down the  servers and bring peace to the universe cover me gold leader  going in I have you good Dr to you The star maker so The dream gonna make you The spaceman look down all in your all in my mind all in my mind all in my mind all in my mind all in my mind Matthew I fully agree with your comments about hrs And with Brian though I would put it It is what I was trying to get at with distinguishing between subjective certitude is the prime character of knowledge in and experiential One is simply the determination of the faculty in the other is the of being The latter is mistaken often for the I vaguely recall Louis doing and it is fairly clear to me that Michael is as And I fully as Thomas that one could not exhaust the nature of a fly with a lifetime of That was the point I was trying to convey by repeatedly alluding to the beginning of the call all men father and then they Clear and distinct knowledge and in their apprehension itself cannot be are still often confused and As we know we divide as it And certainly with the faith that process have a Though I still think I can know that I know that I even if sometimes I am wrong that I know that I and even though I cannot answer how it is that I let alone how I know that I know that I you I am fine without having to establish a treatise of epistemology in saying things like Trent absolute certitude of and knowing that those with said absolute still bumble around you find language as purely argumentation really but then again dividing the world between and is kind of sad especially when it is to be It is a sad and violent outlook on really Being No doubt about Solipsistic only recognizes There is no Libertarians are not solipsistic because it is based in natural which requires empathy for all might be Potential force is not actual Although some claim potential force is acting if police officer is exerting force while doing Potential force is called Coercion is an And a crime for many By your a Rape is not a You can get cooperation with the threat of so by your they agreed to have their car or agreed to have Thank God no longer a cop  I know it is often said that the law of is the first principle of the speculative but I have often wondered whether the proposition is more Can I really understand the law of if I first grasped as the proposition that Being non being is But Bond our judgment is not so we know this as God therefore we might me be even though it is very In who could doubt that they know that without any fear of the contrary being So there we have an evidential case where we know that we and so we can know that we know that we something is not But what are your thoughts as to which proposition is the most as first is not properly a We do not first distinguish between the subject and predicate in ens ut primum Brian Ens ut primum cognitum in Thomas Aquinas and the Tradition doctoral come Intelligible being is the first object of the but the first proposition is being is not I agree with Kemple the Why is is not prior to is You can doubt Joshua because perhaps the predicate is not contained in the subject We formulate what we recognize as the primum cognitum by a but in the actual the distinction has not yet been made between subject and Likewise in is not we do not have clear formulations of these two but distinguish between that which is present to us and that which is compared to that which is present but is because being is being is what Being Or just I it Kemple beat me I agree it is helpful to remember we are talking about things that happen in our development before we can even before PB almost missed the poetry Peanut But is such a distinction being and not possible without first grasping that being That is what puzzles But being I that first apprehension is of is It is not like I apprehended and apprehending and judge that is is just makes it sound too It just Peregrino nice to see you around unless this is the first time shown If I were I would be careful of making yet another duplicate account to troll can link via ip address and block you via ip the italian renaissance of arch troll Joshua Kenz and Brian I appreciate your and I think I see the but I still find myself divided on I will have to think on last The long arm of the grammar police will have their day with this outlaw The first intellectual realization of ens ut primum consists in the or understanding one wants to phrase that there is something which is not simply related to oneself as perceived by the powers of sense but in such as is discovered in subsequent acts of both what it is and that it is something independent of oneself as the This is the fundamental distinction between animal and human and gives rise to the possibility of Apropos of nothing on TNET so does anyone know if there is any particular order to the way the Psalms are arranged in the Or are they just kind of compiled and thrown Holy Robertson He gives eeveral Introduction to his Exposition of the Psalms of David Speaking of Thomas and I went to talk on Dei Verbum at the Dominican House of Studies in It was quite It turned out to be mostly about so I was Neumayr was there as well and I was able to chat with him Sounds This  an amazing Surpassed my What was Neumayer doing in Does he live there An amazing and very He was visiting I Is he the sole founder who is still teaching at he retired this but he is the sole surviving academic writing a history of the founding and I very much hope he finishes Neumayr is a man who cannot talk for five minutes that without beginning to philosophize in the proper sense of the Though he has many remarkably entertaining he really do small They are all at the service of his philosophical A good And a good player to As a young tutor at I especially appreciated his many Wish I could have been at that How was TJ I was only able to go to the one I really wanted to make it to that one Do you know if they will put up the started doing They should post a couple of the lectures on SoundCloud in coming The Thomistic Institute  Ronald Essays Videos Thomas Aquinas College Alumnus Phil Halpin has uploaded two And so it again education begins with I think go get educated now Only a few more posts until I see TNET has returned to the a great big A falcon that screeches and but one welcome Are you too afraid to use your real the welcome is worn It seems to me that veering dangerously close to what was already beaten to death literally thousands and thousands of replies shall not cease from and the end of all our tNetting will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first It may be that the thread will tie us It may be we shall touch the Happy And see the great whom we much is much and We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and that which we we One equal temper of heroic Made weak by time and but strong in will To to to and not to Please welcome Lady Peregrino back to the is this some kind of sideways fight to the comment The alternative is Those who have crossed With direct to other Kingdom Remember at as lost Violent but only As the hollow men The thread thread HAHAHA Of course it either that or strolling down memory lane like Samantha Cohoe and I did some thousands of responses This is the way tNET ends This is the way tNET ends This is the way tNET ends Not with a bang but a Wisdom as of the Is Peregrino gone for everyone no I see him He must have blocked Like the Troll Phoenix Weird I seem to have a better time being blocked and called than           I see      at  Stop    at  at  oh is okay what some call cheating  I think you got others reckon as efficiency Thanks the only other here helping Who got This was established as cheating some time  your was the comment what some call others call a challenge to  Good Good game even trying for can you tell who was Cheaters never count Should have said By counting every comment individuallu Catherine counting back from the last Or seeing the total and counting backwards first an feature the wrong must be I say leave the comment as is It it is appropriate seem quite the I believe I got Thank you thank you so I feel so Seems more fitting than hyped product with little but lot of pretension by some of us should have had it but Is San Peregrino still I bait good for I troll This is my TNET Is this the REAL Or a recently made up Because the name has Ignoring John assman is one of my favorite but referring to him loads of trolling fun Who here has kept up with reading the whole me sadly I thoguth not doing it no big I will have Beitia is close to half of the thread I find it appropriate that Catherine got with I still contend that has been made up all along to keep the thread not sure Peregrino a message me have to give me an example I could look up not let it stop Nothing thanks I feel like such a loser now TNET inasmuch as such things can Maybe Beitia is really Peregrine in I think that Where are we going to have TNET I say when we hit one of the hundred slap you I always thought giving Scott the how you know Is Peregrino afraid of  Ed He always called Beetia the most so I suspected him or you mean  We are going to have cross between a conference and burning Feel not even real At tNET Matthew you of all people know not Perescott etc etc This is a new It could be not me never believe Beitia was really Peregrine he could never say that stuff without no just vulgar Why does everyone get all snippetty about Peregrino I get Why is anyone even batting an Live and let After all these you people STILL get up in I think it is Matthew Peterson in order to keep his baby tNET Scott is the original But this could be you Falcon being Captain Captain America pretending to be The not up in not up in I just think really I actually tried to engage Peregrino point the finger at me I see Isak Of Matthew was one of the first to befriend this new mean and admit he is ever wrong and thinks he can understand metaphor in under But he block so going with have to ask Goyette I know so I answer for I answer for the neither can anyone here gift there are I just presumed Peregrino which was Scott I blocked without even reading a wit of what he it would be awesome trolling to take the name and imitate the great troll as said jerk too already edited it In the Catherine all tNETers are welcome to visit our house in beats I know who any of you people are Pegrino cannot be what is with all you jerks and Grow a pair and deal with it you sound like Gollum Catherine and Edward were I am still pretty much is this the tNET soap opera you never ask but always there to answer you it who the hell are you talking The only person ever blocked me is under various Peregrino  Is it really it looks like talking to I am much meaner than him Whoever it not so sure Sam Can we kick him If Isak or Brilliant I get Cause you ask too many and creeping me Now let it go I think this is the true reason Socrates was put on too many cause pretty sure not wearing no you just have to demonstrate that still wearing pants at least Socrates would have worn pants I wearing Not jordache  Nobody comes between you and your Only one answer per  wisdom proceeds by wearing pants when it is appropriate to do so Not this peregrine probably because you wear the Peregrin o The renaissance was caused by rapid advances in gird up thy loins in some and I will ask and you will answer There Beatia Was that a fat comment Phone auto Thank you for the gentle pants are important do you deny nudist How to Gird Up Your An Illustrated Guide If read the then probably Oleg if tNET is my was an UNWANTED yes  And as much as I think the idea of pretending to be The Peregrine just to mess with you people like a doctor hitting your knee to get that kick reaction over and I have the energy or the I think I need a I have people making bizarro memes with my name in no one admitting the necessity of this could be it for Girding loins putting on having your loins girt about with and having on the breastplate of That is where wisdom comes from Peregrine Hey I found You guys with pants and I even want to Actually a awfully curious but also Is peregrino still It is not him Who is the this is the best thing heard Sam Rocha will like Fabrizio de singing Leonard translated into Fabrizio de Andrè Nancy Una delle a mio più belle di Fabrizio de Andrè tratta Volume del Tradotta  Pants are TNET slumbers on TNET is charged with the grandeur of It will flame like shining from shook It gathers to a like the ooze of oil Why do men then now not reck his Generations have have have And all is seared with smeared with And wears smudge and shares the soil Is bare nor can foot being And for all tNET is never There lives the dearest freshness deep down And though the last lights off the black West went at the brown brink springs Because the Holy Ghost over the bent Net broods with warm breast and with bright I can see by the comments that some iteration of Pope Scrotch has returned to I cannot see any of the which means whoever it is has blocked me just as Pope Scrotch I am not sure why anyone jumped to the conclusion that it was me pretending to be Pope I can assure you all that it was most definitely NOT as I have better things to do than pose as that sad little man such as make photoshops of For a new topic what does TNET think of the haiku as a poetic I am currently very much enamored of Basho and Issa and so I did not used to but some friends convinced me of the worth this I never liked the but that may be a moral We know who the imposter is but his secret is safe with First English In a Station of the Metro The apparition of these faces in the Petals on a black I named Isak as prime suspect since he was absent and has so much fun abusing Since the puppet master is so quick to now guessing this other John or Joshua or some of the several people that are big on preemptively blocking to quick to slow to A Haiku for I found a new Trousers are Somebody stole I like Weiss little poem is not technically But Funny that making it new meant making it A Haiku for tNET A flash of Reverberations of The Someone post the stole my picture of Henry Zepeda here I a man without a A man without a A man without any Hardy speaking to Stanley MacLaurel in Bonnie I like although not sure how seriously to take them as a poetic form at The idea of a longer made up of stanzas of Haiku has always intrigued me The problem with haiku is that really easy to do very as evidenced by this A youtube commentator on why Beowulf should have been a I said this a DUMB ass OLD ass story bout how a niqqa finna get his ass TAPPED by a damn primordial monster nd They made this poem thick as hell when it really could just be a That shit why they make this boring ass shit LONG as Talm bout mfs eating in a damn hall nd Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who got no where to Then all the sudden a angry ass Demon come thru and beat the out I have a sinking feeling that this may be one of my students Peregrino is faux a I tells The comment on Beowulf is in its own Like something out of a Walker Percy novel When the real Peregrine comes there will be hell to Poetry is  In my year book was this delightful take on the are Violets are Sugar is and so would be but the roses are wilted The violets are dead The sugar is sour And so is your I see that metaphor is likely the principle tool of the I know that a poem requires Aristotle must have known of the return of Peregrino when he wrote the the greatest thing by far is to be a master of It is the one thing that cannot be learnt from and it is also a sign of since a good metaphor implies an intuitive perception of the similarity in Or just make a Marillion Grendel Marillion Grendel Live at the Hammersmith April Mother by The Mountain Goats Flash cards for by The Mountain from Zopilote Machine Sed Aquinas calls Poetry the therefore poetry is not higher than Deja vu haiku impressions infima infimarum poem unmetered Did you all see My Way News Medical Baby born to woman who got new womb Medical Baby born to woman who got new womb A lot of the Poetics reads tongue in cheek to like quote sheer He can find similarities in things that nothing How does he do Or take haiku version of the Odyssey where he reduces the entire plot and action to a sentence or I FOUND OUR Listen to the Butt Song from Hell written on a painting One section of Hieronymus massive triptych LAUREN DAVIS Or his definition of the But Pergrine will appreciate use of metaphor when he calls the plot the soul of Or when he compares the plot to the order of a living I cannot believe this thing has gone on for almost two warm up Sed Christ primarily uses metaphor to Since primary mode of teaching is via and only breaks it down to direct teaching when the apostles are unable to grasp the Therefore metaphor is QEF he is the Which goes back to earlier topics of the student and did Plato The effective use of metaphor in writing is the foundation of a storyteller and The goal is to engage the hook them with a story that is designed to teach without browbeating facts like a tech Why metaphor And in my reading I found Homer and Aristotle the best at using setting aside It is more than just a hook It engages the mind in extended similes are are they The intuitive perception that can find what is similar in dissimilars seems akin to the faculty that grasps the universal in the I agree that it is not an art but it does seem capable of cultivation like invention in But it is amazing how difficult it is to get students to learn how to a as it of creating That is I was amazed at that you But without pondering a do you know what it Or is it merely Revery or Most everything in Homer may be unpacked and still be even is the madwoman of the forgotten metaphors the relation rather that the word rose is used in place of beautiful What is common to both is Regarding my quote on that I picked up in reference to the spiritual life but it applies to the wild imagination in need of taming by more metaphor for Rereading the it is riddled with He describes and is giving a deliberate instruction as Every time I reread it I come away with a different understanding and new And its hard to tell where if he is is reasonable play on the Good Bad not so A riddle to be my dear The mind cannot resist the unpacking from whence comes the delight and the Your example woman is a bears more than the one hidden premise that a rose is It also among other that the beauty if treatment of metaphor in the Poetics and the Rhetoric are They can and are used to distort and deceive They are a cause of Thus to say one instead of can be an abuse of language and offense against truth by subtle You must have a different I am still looking for metaphor as woman is a also suggests that if you handle her she will make you My copy is distorted or I need new For Bond from the must be as has been said from things that are related to the original and yet not obviously so related just as in philosophy also an acute mind will perceive similarities even in things far Metaphors may just be for the hoi They express things in a new and unexpected but also We always need to be tickled or we just listen to the Its so it find But he says this though a better translation would be will begin by remarking that that we all naturally find it agreeable to get hold of new ideas words express and therefore those words are the most agreeable that enable us to get hold of new Now strange words simply puzzle ordinary words convey only what we know it is from metaphor that we best get hold of something When a poet calls age a withered he conveys a new idea a new to us by means of the general notion of which is common to both things So what is learned in the above Or is it merely delightful Aristotle mentions many similar I am not disparaging all metaphor or only that it may give more a mere appearance of learning rather good argument since something is learned in the masking mere delight in a a Cyclops know if Logan is an copyright intended I think the example from Reagan is making my is a city on the is the minor It is giving a major or a we have an enthymeme and the audience supplies the But one proposition by itself cannot be an The strikingness draws us to But at the beginning of the Rhetoric we were warned that the exactest knowledge is insufficient because an argument based on such implies that people can be instructed and some cannot be Metaphor least in is used in constructing enthymemes but they are much less clear than merely I should say rather they are striking and appear therefore clear or But it has nothing to do with the veracity of an And this is the best part of the neglected part as Aristotle points It is what makes up the reasoned the But the more effective is pathos and The conversation is a lot less interesting when half of it is Blockhappy cowpokes gumming up the You know just mouthing more I miss looks like talking about But comments in hours what happened San Everyone must have had a good mayve tnet got the flu I am rather But count TNET out Oh it It never The question will TNET fly too close to the sun in the attempt to free itself from the labyrinth of its own Matthew yours was comment Some for the George Carlin on Time George  You guys are still  I saw this and thought of you Twelve Tomorrows with Science Fiction Author Gene Wolfe A Twelve Tomorrows Science fiction Humans Naturally Follow Crowd Behavior sensitivity to crowds operates in a remarkably swift and automatic writes Alison ALISON GOPNIK Chinese Archaeology The Value of Political Corruption Changes meant to clean things up have are we too THOMAS EDSALL Ancient Commentators on Aristotle In the century the previously unknown lecture notes that we now know as works JOHN SELLARS Fish reared on land replay the transition to four legs life August Unusual fish with lungs have developed Stress Fractures by Adam City Journal Summer On market crashes and the arrogance of financial elites Did Pater post Pope Pius A letter in defense of Cardinal Newman Blessed John Henry Newman like many nuanced   Arguments Blog Democracy Journal wars and rumors of and rising This year has had it but no truer sign of the End Times has yet emerged than a bizarre in the New York of fastidiously goateed conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat and hirsute Marxist philosopher Will Superintelligent Machines Destroy In a thoughtful new a philosopher ponders Competition Is for Losers Americans mythologize economic but actually the opposite of If you want to PETER THIEL Graham Speculative American talking about speculative I got open in tabs right now on my phone Harman made an appearance Oh  Hey How was your Mine was Had a Went apple Peterson with the link Did you have fun without I see that the most of jokes has been assimilated by tNET into Gene Wolfe is the and should be more the poem below is not technically a but Langston Hughes seems to have been inspired by that Note The Cool face of the river Asked me for a fake but he stills blocks his betters he can kiss my ass  are easy But sometimes they make sense Refrigerator Watch Michael the haiku technocrats will note that your second line is lacking a seventh May I suggest the still he blocks his I resist the and I assume you would appreciate the added As for your last I must congratulate you on finding five words to link in Very forceful and most I forgot to mention how much I like the trochaic meter of the last  your on my I edited the second line to have originally it had but I fixed it I think your first unedited version had but what appears now has only I have which is why I do two The And Counting is quite This explains why I refrain From writing I consider people to have But he still blocks people I think Spaceman has you  meaning that I consider people to have better call in Count Dracula on I I edited to reflect your sage  See Translation Be beyond Transcend the straight and Do not just Be the tNET padding where did we end up on the Bolin too far back for me to see for Certitude is Thus sayeth Bolin the All else is I think it was more or less roundly And those on the other side were accused of saying know because I something like I may have misstated that So the discussion closed with each side being more sure that the other side was Did the ever come up with an answer to his question about the question of mistaken beliefs and how we know whether our beliefs come from faith or upon that was a question had a distinction experiential certainty and something or that was the start of an although I do think the Bolin position reduced to the how we know and how we have seems to some of the hardest questions of Philosophies that try to found themselves on these questions are inevitably easy to say you claim that you know but can you answer THIS you must not know That make that line of reasoning any less Maybe the Bolin position reduced to rather than absurdity I see how you could hold his but I see how you could hold his and think that the proposition is has any real He seemed to hold a version of it for natural knowledge as A defense of the Metaphor girds up the loins of the enthymeme whose pants else fall Spaceman knowest He adjusts his powdered All is well is right to say that Aristotle points out that metaphor is at the heart of an effective at times He just mistakes metaphor for enthymeme I think that part of what Bolin was saying was but that he neglected some It is certainly true that one can be mistaken about what the faith contains in particular right that own understanding of an infallible teaching is not itself But on the other hand as some of the were saying there is something liked the distinction in faith as well as in natural That seems about right denied the possiblity of being or that we ourselves are not But better be able to have certainty about things the Church or the whole shebang goes up in smoke Kenz distinguished implicit and explicit We are certain in the general propositions but become less so as we make more distinctions and refine Our knowledge is incomplete or imperfect by our It is not so much uncertain as Add easily corrected general But from these innate deficiencies we do not arrive at hopeless sounds about A Station of the and would both absolutely be considered even They both conform to the haiku It is interesting that the two characteristics almost inevitably mentioned first by strangers to the haiku are having three lines and conforming to a syllable As a matter of fact these are the two most arbitrary and least essential traits of the haiku in Seemed to me Bolinism was more of a epistemic problem relating to certainty order knowledge about knowing than one with faith but I only popped in to point out what seemed like glaring inconsistencies and then I was on my merry way The true essence is in the mere juxtaposition of two usually separating by a or cutting It must also as much as the use of other poetic techniques such as metaphor or The haiku is a represented an attempt to capture something eternal in a I believe it was Basho who described the ideal writing of the haiku as a Isak writes poesy and photoshops an assbag autumnal jollies That certainly slices the If you really want to be as authentic as the haiku must also include a seasonal reference some brief image that sets it during a certain time of So although haiku is certainly evocative of he needs a time of year reference might I suggest the last line be in the or something I think certitude has less to do with knowing that we know perilous way of putting and more to do with seeing things as they really are  Adrw that was my difficulty from the get go as Because of the regress that comes from that we But Pound used So at least I justify my last We want to see a naked As for the certainty of per Heb its foundation is something more vita aeterna in nobis On that the of of faith is evidently stronger than what we could obtain from human important to remember that of is a type of certitude distinct not from certitude of the understanding of This also allows us to see faith as a kind of it seemed like the argument was that since we can think we are certainly right and be mistaken about that fact than even human knowledge is just more or less I hold that human knowledge can be certain at least of some and I hold that faith is stronger than as you said I wish for the umpteenth time that this thread were So much scrolling LOL apples pies made aroma of fall consoled for lack of tNET is picked one I think it the way I say anyway the most of all the haikus thus far Joel I was trying to follow instructions Hence faith is an infused habit which allows us to assent to propositions of faith in light of the By the same faith has the power to restrain the believer from propositions contrary to the such as And many other hither and yon tNet so I can Nice day teases Like a dirty in Polygenism was argued for in the south in the Anyone able to guess stars come out in fall I see orion in daily supernova hope Joel ooh pick pick Black people are Pretty if you could even call them the added benefit of saying that Christ probably even redeem the problem with one man for sin one man for Do I understand how this but it has to be if that teasing was much too gentle for tNET Michael I yet I will say that I think discussion is allowed polygenesis And there are oddities about Genesis that lead even some during patristic times to theorize about are they founding a city so Who are these there is a bit of a mystery about we know that there were genetic humans for a long period of time prior to the evidence for human activity and just as evolutionary biology eventually ends up in history with no an examination of with whatever rampant hypothesis devolves into Imma stick with Paul on this my heart is filled with love for you right now Beitia Agreed Michael Beitia Joel is correct about the existence of the oddities however pretty up on my pop science physics and cosmology than biology I will Not saying I understand how sin comes into the world through one or how Cain could be building a but the monogenesis of man original sin must be John actually Pound did not use a metaphor not Look magnificent how he by the mere juxtaposition of two to make the reader not take it as a say more about the or perhaps give an example btw people let me plug my man Hegel who makes the same point evo bio in his Philosophy of Nature that Beitia does if no then no This is a very basic point of not revelation Samantha that not bad at all Your description was highly Samantha the best part of The Neverending weekend I say it was the following quote from a youtube commentator on why Beowulf should have been a I said this a DUMB ass OLD ass story bout how a niqqa finna get his ass TAPPED by a damn primordial monster nd They made this poem thick as hell when it really could just be a That shit why they make this boring ass shit LONG as Talm bout mfs eating in a damn hall nd Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who got no where to Then all the sudden a angry ass Demon come thru and beat the out Beowulf Seamus Part of Nobel Laureate Seamus new translation of Beowulf comes to life in this gripping in the has almost nothing to do with It just means Pater wins tNET for the day Samantha I will use since they are amateur and thus the signs of the craft are easy to water polished stone in the palm of my hand white scent of I like to indicate the cutting which comes almost always at the end of the first or second with a brother and I plant tomatoes in clay pots sorry I hurt This one I am proud of because it takes a little and cut grass mom leaves the window open this jar is neither Will I be unceremoniously ejected from tNET if I say the anonymous commenter has a haiaphor haiku with pants I think of the haiku as an attempt to express the almost trying to use words Every haiku ultimately fails to do what it wants to and that is make the reader feel EXACTLY what the writer felt in some fleeting On an unrelated is philosophical anthropology used just a subspecies of and the answer is but Kantian not Hegelian That was my but I share the common TACer vice of having read precious little century German As you can see I like to refer to the time of year Rather than say use the image of for still thinking about your last quick for human of spirit is possible through For human spirit is incapable of that mediately absolute relation to and must always remain something only indirectly and not through through critical Samantha what does a little boy do with the fireflies he Tolkien on if The guts of this essay are pretty much on page beginning with the tower and Kant rules the roost even so philosophical anthropology is generally and Marias are sort of exceptions is there cut grass in the spread the glowing part on the end of a stick to make a The thread at the moment is a taking the form of an extended with juxtaposed conversations about haiku and philosophical I can see your presentation at the tNET conference as Anthropological maybe you guys did different things with fireflies than I I put caught fireflies in a jar with holes in the lid and set the jar in my room in the Doing maybe to avoid the direct reference to I could change my second line from of fall to of cinnamon Haiku is Haiku is pointless Haiku is SO much It is also a little bit addicting once you know how they I still think doggerel is the highest form of art why do you say Shakesperean Haiku recited by Bertie Hey Nonny Hey Nonny Nonny Nonny Hey Nonny I think the haiku is the epitome of the That shit why they make this boring ass shit LONG as Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who got no where to did you read all the stuff Isak said about Your defense of such a Jehoshaphat there a short version of what means for Hegel and Kant Or am I making it more complicated than it need Samantha I buy  If he he clearly did not  Am I your defense for your Joel Kant and Hegel mean the same thing by it I think but I thought you were implying that there was some underlying not complicated enough Joel Isak have to think about I just never have taken Haikus least in know to be Samantha hit enter too meant to say I buy I should note that to the degree I remember any it I vaguely remember Senior year that I was able to sophistically justify everything under the sun as the of the but about Joel totally read the relevant Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries before our Hegel seminars I Did good for that no secondary sources thing is bullshit one of inanest inanities Part of the problem with the Haiku is either nonsense out any real ical structure or else they just look like prose in which someone has randomly hitten the Enter key Giants of the modern Wind now stirs in Arguing against a position Joel HF find in the text but is nevertheless certain is the correct way to read Hegel is anyway Jehoshaphat an overreaction against the on banal textbooks that one finds I know the rationale Hegel that but Roy agreed with And defend my gnostic reading of Hegel to the also an excuse to totally decontextualize texts and be lazy read the hard Roy agreed with Whether or not he actually agreed with Very is good that we engage in primary texts at but it is also a serious the Phenomenology was lying if you think it was hard at the the History stuff hard Just mobilize Kant The subject and Hegel is Samantha Adrw Lng was born with a natural Hegelian Hegel practically demands I think the most frustrated I ever saw Decaen was our Husserl Our section want to get at least I Then finally Decaen just explained and everyone maybe just me was like I was but where is that in the Those Husserl readings are we know how to read phenomenology at no one ever defines It admit of the Phenomenology is a tragicomedy  Now I am the Lord master of Now I am the Slave my thesis was on oof The head Eurocrat does At the Japan Summit Haiku poem at the end of my preliminary remarks following the If I was a probably be Hegelian If you were a I would convert    just had to use that again Secondary sources Haystacks of occasional needle of truth is always Adrw Journals are the I need to publish in or Edward Langley Strict observance Thomist Occasional troll Further proof that Roy and I actually use while chatting with he corrected us about the terminology we invented in class as not being proper to Hegel but to later followers of Roy had all that Roy also But here is Heinrich Heine being very and talking about the interpretation of Genesis and all the rest of this there are indeed many other beautiful and noteworthy narratives in the Bible which would be worthy their for just at the there is the story of the forbidden tree in Paradise and of the that little private tutoress who lectured on Hegelian philosophy six sand years before This without feet demonstrated very ingeniously how the absolute consists in the identity of being and how man becomes God through what is the same how the God in man thereby attains This formula is not so clear as the original When ye eat of the tree of knowledge ye shall be as Mother Eve understood only one thing in the whole that the fruit was and because it was the good woman ate of But she had scarcely eaten the enticing apple when she lost her her naive and discovered that she was much too naked for a person of her the ancestress of so many future emperors and and she desired a read some out of date uncertainty ducks pond swimming hermaphrodites true tNET gnosis I remain Why are you Because Joel ruined one of our Hegel seminars by reading outside I anyway I I read Hegel as a That was possibly also because I had no idea what the text referred and Joel HF did but only because he cheated or so I maintain Ruined First of that seminar need me for it to be Second of Roy understood what I was talking Third of Roy understood what was talking and you both misunderstood each other to be talking about the same like evolutionary tNET turns to In that we were only being good if you seminar probably would have been like this mean Trivia some of the Germans become more intelligible if you only read the first sentence or two of every  about could  TNET is certainly a manifestation of One of the tutors said they were taking the class on a Germanic and they were just feeling lost in one day they only read the first sentence of each paragraph maybe the that class was the first one they Max Scheler Encyclopedia of At the time of his Max Ferdinand Scheler was Reading the SEoP on Max Scheler only strengthens my resolve to never read Max not but only once read everything else BTW Edward When are you going to run stats this class prep might go faster with less diss on Scheler Scheler is very much worth reading you continental philosophers be trippin From beings relate to their environment and to other living beings through a type of cosmic love disclosed most emphatically in the person of Francis of pass too if all I had to go But read the whole SEoP find much of great interest read the whole SEoP after But my patience for that sort of thing has diminished with each If I ever had the urge to read continental just read me some As the more kids putting to or helping put to the less interested in vague longwinded he does have huge but very Much easier to read JP II if you know Scheler read the longwinded Germans to the it makes the sleepy time faster Hey get ready for your bedtime reading on and Jehoshaphat I agree about secondary especially with Kant and I spent an inordinate amount of time on both made my own Kant any word I sure and searching ahead to where he may define it or a place that gave a clear Problem most of the tutors did not understand them a and being in seminar even if they many would leave us out to We spend the kind of time we did on yet there was at least as steep a learning curve not because by then we were used to Aristotelian Heck just reading the intro was immensely helpful for I sometimes wonder if it is better not to do them at all then to do them as poorly as we then at least the question do we read can engender some healthy thought on the matter not always as soon as you get to est aedequatio intellectus ad on The Essence of they eyes are shut a good point Aristotle for the most But I spent junior year going through it sentence by Joshua did get the impression that some tutors thought that they need to read secondary sources or whatever else was necessary to ensure that they actually understood And a real as opposed to Kant in where the first year tutor looked completely lost as four of us had our own private discussion for minutes Kant I felt like was understandable just by the texts we one could at least make a good On a random been reading The Shadow of the and it seem better than most throwaway Anyone here familiar with the Book of the New Sun if we read him as we did page a I love I think there is a lot going on that clear at first I benefited greatly from our reading of There is no need to spend more time on Kant than we do at We are only making a Joshua the problem with some of the modern guys we be better to just have a lecture so that we could go faster the great books method breaks down if one is trying to rush through a lot of Joshua think TAC gives Kant his senior seminar where we start rushing through stuff without the time to digest it via seminar it is clear that tNET is hegelian and not Maybe we got more out of Hegel than everyone gives themselves I was flipping by this and thought your quote said est aquaeductio I know all tutors are not created and with regard to Seminar I got some of the best but do we really need to be experts in all of the Passing familiarity is more than to my Joel But you have an extremely confused tutor with a very confused class Kant was especially given the comparatively long time we spent on Phenomenology of the I had Kolbeck for who totally knew what was and of course the best Junior seminar section in the history of Junior Kolbeck Daniel what one or two lectures would Passing I thought that I read Kant but for the length of the reading I spent a lot more time than normal for Daniel did you get seminar tutors in I had two freshman There was a There were schedule changes because that is the year McArthur had to get heart I had two sophomore come to think of we had a helluva Pater Edmund was in that Who Which one are you talking Joel suppose someone will make a comment as we are all about to grow nostalgic for our TAC that was the best I remember guess I had a bad But that seems that you came up to me before classes Daniel and said something like it looks like we have a lot of personality in section this year between the two of But then it wound up being Pater was in my sophomore which was notoriously shall I do What shall I I shall rush out as I and walk the street With my hair What shall we do What shall we ever The hot water at And if it a closed car at And we shall play a game of Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the  Being is one and When was Heidegger removed from the I A Prior to I would throw out Flaubert and Melville and and a couple of Heidegger seminars I by the I I think we could have made more room in senior seminar by cutting out the Vatican II readings am as well as Melville Well we agree on one candidate to get cast out at least Maybe move Church documents to Flaubert adds very On this we can  Melville and Flaubert and cut all And less time on Tocqueville I like is but we do him my seminar did Keep Ibsen I think he adds a It also rounds out the plays We read Ibsen Dollhouse is the first reading cut in years with less The Doll House is bad as for and is just rate crummy feminism in terms of politics and ideas A House is one of the few opportunities that men at TAC have to realize how asinine their expectations about marriage and TAC does not need second rate crummy feminism to be dissmissive I think it was I found it very thought they Ibsen wrote crappy I think And not going to be reading the Second Sex or anything The first time I read I thought as replace Ibsen with Feminine But then I realized that the characters were very as was the I feel very indebted to Tocqueville Tocqueville is Not cutting him Obviously the school judges Ibsen to be the most seeing how in years with a deficit of seminars he is Never read cannot judge for myself if we did move Church to that would free up some serious space for and those in the entire even touches lightly on Not cutting just cutting back on We spend like three Well kind of an important movement for understanding our founders We should also probably read Like or probably note that even mainstream philosophy seems to struggle with the whole feminism At been my take as a total But only after cutting and the Vatican II documents should we cut down on Tocqueville I a staying out of the Ibsen And we add you were in my sophomore I had completely forgotten It was pretty though it got better after the Do you remember the later Peter Doran reading a novel during the Lucretius And Scott   As culturally significant as feminism I think it has produced a great thank you Joshua I think someone blocked not holding my breath for Scott Hahn writing a great book exactly he is not a He just holds some heterodox view depends what you mean by I was calling you a heretic for recommending him I mentioned Hahn expressly for your Joshua Pater sounds Half the class was A third were out on that took an hour or That is you should do a takedown of Hahn on your And that tongue in cheek that guy Hahn is such a clown but he sure has cashed in on his clown act I kind of wished Being and Nothingness was in the curriculum for the same reason Samantha wants feminism in the But end of the adding some Heidegger or Wittgenstein would be more important I have actually learned some things from Hahn Why is he so only tangentially aware of Pater Edmund and Adrw our Junior seminar was the best Jehoshaphat what is your beef with It no  We had too many people in our Junior a great book written by Teresa of a Doctor of the And Catherine you were in it When did you mention feminism I thought someone who blocked me had brought it up because all of the sudden there were a bunch of but now Adrw says it was you and I find my beef with Hahn his narcissistic conversion his intellectual his recycle of Protestant biblical theology as if it were goods produced in the Catholic shop Pater we were talking about Think of it this you ever a blueprint to use to cash I said the only work in the curriculum that touches on feminism even lightly Have you read any of serious academic Or just his popular Joel HF but second I went the other direction and cashed in on that template and never will I still like reverse order I but thought provoking and feminism is important to talk at least one time Hahn is probably a nice enough guy and sincere just plagiarizes from de Lubac on the Mass and presents something very problematic as standard Catholic teaching and he thinks the serpent was a dragon and Adam fell by refusing to lay down his life for Even in I mention he reads scripture somewhat But in all I doubt the sincerity of his or his loyalty to the His major error is one of presenting his often as the He does in some children One can fault readers for giving him too much but he help the I Jehoshaphat was just I maybe we should read the Feminine The Second But then I laughed quietly to myself because that would ever Hahn is using A Father who Keeps His Promises for my When was btw folks seem to me largely derivative from an obscure exegete named James B Jordan Very try Escalante you went the other I have benefited from his reading of I think he pushes it too far at and I also think he has enough respect for the but his serious academic work is Joshua error of presenting peculiar views as simply Catholic is endemic to modern See also Christopher Rome to Geneva see I I kid lots of bad Thomists out A came to the ITI recently to do a metaphysical takedown of Christopher It was a Oh my I thought you were a cradle My impression talking to people who know the Hahns personally is that Scott is a very zelous man who take his esoteric interpretations as speaking for the church to an extreme that DeLubac and more scholars But that is certainly a charitable The eternal But I remain amazed that one could mess up a metaphysical takedown of I a cradle Catholic so I hope that diminishes the De Lubac so You never cease finding ways to shock So what were you at Were you Joel HF when we had the in as one of the older tutors called who was arguing or polygenism and denying both that the soul was created by God and that the first man was created by And advanced some evolution of presented this as why I remember the had him but often ate with of the more traditionalist but idiosyncratic persuasion Joshua this a portly fellow with white Pater Edmund and I argued vehemently with this one guy for hours was giving an account of evolution and I wonder if still find it faulty just Is there an online list of lecturers lecture by Who Matthew Peterson had white hair and I would call him Can anyone tell me why De Lubac is so I have now begun to read a couple of his things and I find anything really He seems steeped in the That guy was a total I have a list of but it is missing some including the ones we were is my But I was fairly brash and overconfident at the De Lubac has an odd interpretation of Aquinas on the whole It may be fair to say that it is only nominally an since that was what was required at the and the reading would be that he rejected Thomas on those But that would be tendentious and de main theological error is in the distinction of the supernatural and natural himself saw Humani condemnation of that as aimed at His main personal fault was in wanting to from the Church those that disagreed with like Garrigou Lubc was not a nice man The fat guy mentioned by Kenz know that cause and effect are nor the definition of De Lubac also loved which makes a lot of people I found out that he know the of NAture in the Pater this the guy the two of us argued wtih for what seemed like probably hours it must have been senior year because they gave us wine and cheese in the It was indeed senior I know because at one point I started talking about Joshua I knew that about Other things he are Especially if one is looking for patristic Teilhard was not a an It is very hard to see how an orthodox person can defend himself admitted to being a pantheist in a letter thanking someone for defending him from that Daniel I pity you for having to listen to my old friend Damian Another complete please consider him representative of his He seemed past his Someone write the bigwigs at TAC and get a list of the lectures from through But he was a great Oh no de Lubac was a patristic but he was of the school that at Vatican exult in erasing everything between Augustine and now cannot remember the but one of the bishops said something like that This is the whole problem with they want to use the Fathers as a way of freeing themselves from but that means also reading the Fathers to how they have ben question is re opened for debate to be unclear vs all those meanie Scholastics who say what they mean Joshua while of know how I would defend the primacy of Aquinas in studying I think that it is well for us to be attentive to what De Lubac and the Resourcesment guys were driving is the tutor I could not remember the name of What were they driving Richard was The College lost a lot when he I think a lot of people alienated from the her her and certainly There a need to rediscover the teachings of the  There certainly is such a need I know faithful and Catholics who even feel alienated by the works of Garrigou They are not brought closer to John XXIII But rejecting years of That is the whole To go to the Fathers more scripture is But when doing so is treated as hitting a big giant reset The and you see this in the get worse in that what they is not what the Fathers actually said or but their own very modern The liturgy is actually a very good example of Even the Holy week restoration in the was nothing of the But one might wonder whether ressourcement part of the reason Joshua we agree on the This is why Hermeneutic of continuity is so Of course we cannot do away with years of But modernity Modernity caused a definitive Lendman is looking at the fruits f the of the not at the issues that existed contemporaneously with these The problems with were But I think something like the Thomistic Circles were a far healthier solution only that fall And how is ressourcement an answer to I think it At not a good What do you mean by Modern philosophy and its what would you think about trying to reboot Thomistic Modernity spring out of nowhere in Modernity had been going on for a good It was a to be but there were responses being Too much of the history post looks more like a capitulation than an I think ressourcement is a reaction to the alienation from Church and Doctrine that was de facto part of the experience of century CAtholiicism What alienation from Church and be the first to say that there were serious problems in the But not sure I understand the to which you Joel I think part of the reason for that appearance is that the council of Trent was so powerful and so there was a negative effect from Trent that the Church lacked the mobility to change her teaching style to accommodate the needs of the By i meant that when most theologians and Catholics read they see the face of They see a multitude of distinctions and an intellecualisation of the In short they are actually sympathetic to this because I feel alienated by most sermons and masses that I could attend these But because it is so banal and when it out and out Evangelical protestantism could also be said to underscore the alientation between scripture and so what about something like rebooting the Thomistic Practical alternative Anecdote I once played Francois Trois Lecons de Tenebrae for a girl who grew up only in a house with Hip Hop and I think it among the most beautiful works of music ever She only She could not hear the If I told her that is all she would get to listen she would feel alienated and  I think to see the face of you need to read Thomas in proper context of the full exegesis of the interpretation of Then you see the full synthesis between faith and and you have a good foundation to approach the moderns and some of the more recent Christian philosophers who are so the would be to find a way to take her by the hand and lead her to appreciate that Not to scrap all classical music programs and replace them with easy otherwise the people But the answer would not be to then only play rap and It would be to develop her in some and lead her to it Yes and But we have to speak the same language We have to discover terms that adequately express the cough actual cough still Thomistic start or Post Vatican II the answer has been to replace not with but with junk They make it This is why I say that the way the world today stands to doctrine is as a Not in regards to but in regards to our inability to express the doctrines of the Church in ways that we need to know more about Thomistic Joshua Kenz what would that It was a joint project between Lagrange and as an answer to the objection made with position that holiness was a universal call But what shall it The idea would be to have in parishes a spiritual group that would both study but would center it in especially liturgical sounds It was meant to be something to reach the average and not just See the objection to Lagrange was that he held acquired contemplation was a natural fruit of the life of yet the experience of most people did not in include He and Maritain reasoned that there besides moral an alienation of most laity from the prayer of the Church and her a one via for another via for So that what his opponents had argued when denying the universal call to had in some caused in effect in what you might call an alienation Problem was the Maritains founded the asked Lagrange to be its first spiritual and then the Spanish Civil War happened and Lagrange and Maritain had a falling sad anecdote We have catechism for for children and Aquinas classes for adults at my centered around the I am bad at reaching Faith seeking understanding seems to be our effort to understand the infallible interpretation of I think Scott Hahn gets this and is able to convey that to a certain They also have Baroque concerts on select Sundays throughout the free of charge I am still bad a reaching I like you parish Michael annual Sox game two summer a campfire by lake Michigan ice skating and the University of a youth group young summer camps for a choir camp to learn how to sing traditional church I could go on From my it is better to challenge people than to pander to One be obnoxious or even confrontational But presenting something that is challenging but holy is better than presenting something accessible yet Sounds like you have a good pretty much the only thing keeping me in That and my sons serve Mass I walked out of the first Catholic mass I ever remember with the thought that whatever these people they believe Christ is present in the it is only Tridentine Mass no I think most faithful Catholics agree Joel The problem comes in the execution of Why are you apologizing Michael Sounds things that I like and the same for Most people do not feel at home at the Extraordinary form of the Because if I Peterson will call me a I feel at home at the extraordinary form of the that is NOT my My parish is the ghetto in South Side we have locals from the community We have conversions There is something real going on in your parish Michael that is clearly is working and overcoming bishop will be there on my two oldest sons are being confirmed To bring things full circle the priest who wound up receiving reminds me strongly of the priest who hears the confession in Enduring Very little effort spent Are you at the Institute of Christ the King church in My guess is that there are some very holy priests at your But what works in may not work Restoring a sense of the sacred seems to be you and I have opposite reactions to the I first went to it felt like home right off the wish that happened to a part in Acts where Paul says that they even prepare their but merely trusted in the Holy Spirit so that the glory of any conversions would go to I think that attitude is seriously missing Present the truth of worry so much about if it is comfortable for divorced or for people living in Confront them with the truth and trust in I wanted that to I also recognize to the extent I feel at home at there is probably something lacking in Joshua had the same It felt like like a To add to the statistical sample I felt like Did like EF Joel prudence is Yes Joel Shrine of Christ the King Chicago Latin Mass The Institute of Christ the King INSTITUTE OF CHRIST THE KING It is much easier to know what a pastor ought to do when I do not have the responsibility of the souls of others on my Daniel is definitely a learning curve to the What I liked was the and that the priest putting on a for the people but was quite evidently offering something to I feel weird being older than all the though A lot of the macho layman at our parish seem to be asking the same deep That is what does God expect of I think this is a question that has cropped up through the The answer is the what is I think devotion makes us happy and makes things I appreciate those things Joel Not many people talk at our coffee and donut hour but they did in and Holy Transfiguration Melkite People from all over the Great conversation of course I think that all of the extra things at our parish are useless without the My masses to go to were early morning Novus Ordo masses where the priest celebrated ad How I felt at my first few EF a was as though someone had switched off the and a voice that had been bawling in my for days beyond had been suddenly cut an immense silence empty at but as my outraged sense regained full of a multitude of sweet and natural and It was also striking how Catholic the EF congregation was and still At my home parish the am Mass is for older white am is white and pm is Spanish At the EF we have a black priest give communion to a Chinese and on the other side is a Mexican priest giving communion to a young Indian I am not big on but it does say something that all ages and races show I remember ever seeing a single black person at my home parish But there are a dozen at the Latin is the great unifier and I am to Be To a certain this is due to the fact that EF has artificially short If there were more of each one feel like such an also say that the EF does tend to attract some But they the majority by any I wonder if it matters where you were EF at the college was often badly done before Summorum Pontificum in Ventura before the other Joel and a few of us pitched On the other you have the OF being done better at the college than most Whereas my first experience was a high Mass at Santa Yeah now I know that the servers serve it and there are but it was and is more like the EF should be than what was at the College before And my best experience with the at the were Masses at Santa Teresita had him as a chaplain before take which were but as low as low can know Jesuits You know it is funny how often Buckley and I bumped head considering we came to the college at the same from the same place and already knew each I dragged a friend who had been baptised Catholic but raised protestant to the before going to He had been to a few Catholic Masses His reaction was priceless It was like the priest was offering a NB he know Catholics considered the Mass a That spoke volumes to me Latin does not fly that well in the Eastern Catholic And in some western Churches Latin has been a The old Greek and Arabic liturgy of John Chrysostom is sacred and The latin seems modern when compared to Melkite right is beautiful and I prefer the contemplative low I feel like I am at rite Roman rite is extremely in pretty sure it is older than the liturgy of John And Eastern Catholic churches obviously be using I must say I like the Eastern Chants not really sure whether they are as well suited to Divine The Byzantine liturgy of John Chrysostom is from It is based on the Trinitarian theology of the early it seems relatively modern compared to the Roman  The Latin Rite seems more focused on one moment of The Eastern Catholic Rite union with seems more about the entire liturgy as a Both are very for divine as is the novus ordo liturgical Liturgy has always been in part responsive to What Roman liturgies are we using Are they the same ones that were used in the early I thought the liturgy of the Tridentine Mass was from the It would be great to participate in a Mass that was said in the very early say around They probably did not play the electric guitar at that But those Byzantines were modern by But at least they were in union with Rome and the liturgy cause the As Fortescue the Roman rite of his day was essentially the same as that of the Roman Ordo older than the normal Eastern and in its essential characteristics dates back much further than any other Using rite in an historical to also include derivatives like the Dominican or etc and to refer to the essential root of that of Can there be overfocus on the with things like Elevation music But if you mean as the central action of the The sacrifice of Mass consists in the double Another data I initially avoided the EF as Freshman reason other than it was the early mass and I was but Pat Carter warmed me up to and my first experience was even Sadly I only can experience the EF a couple times a This greatly saddens I think there can be diminished participation in the other parts of the see but if you the Roman rite has the oldest canon going back to the very early Much older than trent for the most merely mandated a standard usage of the rite and did not create I think Trent even modified the canon if at What are you calling the Roman Agree that the Mass said in Rome in the early Church was a liturgical Rite of the Roman if this is what you I think the sobriety of expression and minutiae of detail of the Tridentine Rite is unappealing to yet the looseness of the implementation of the novus ordo is as equally But these two Rites are valid and holy and that is what A few of the Eastern Rites are in union with These must be treasured I have a fascimile of a century Roman Joel is the canon was not Not one From maybe the century to in several medieval there were both in the place where the pope and local ordinary are named places added the king of France of and also in the list of in the local saints were So if Trent the it was only in standardizing a form that did not include latter additions The main thing in the Missal was standardizing the prayers at the the Dominican or Lyonese Standardizing the offertory prayers Dominican again culling prefaces and other medieval accretions In if you want to see the extent of Tridentine look at the Dominican The prayers as the the and to some degree the agnus before These are the parts that developed in the middle Trent favored the southeastern forms that took whereas the Dominican evidences the northeastern forms of gifts under one prayer Really all Trent did was cull some and choose between varying forms for other Now if you want to bash Tridentine the Divine Office is where it screwed the simplicity for it standardized the curial form of the in was simpler because things that made sense in a parochial made little sense in the without a that is another and in any case did not make a substantial change to the structure of the I think my thermometer to see what my fever was to the thermometer I am borderline hypothermic seems low to yet I am breaking out in cold seats and having flashes of Maybe I need to lay down the Roman canon has been substantially the same since long long before sure if you can see go lie down take a drink some What do you mean by the And what was the Roman Rite in the year The the liturgy of John Chrysostom and the Novus Ordo could be said to be the Not sure who Kenz see Is he an advocate of the Tridentine I think that Rite is but I know there have been some problems with a few of their proponents which is I am glad the Tridentine Mass is being said in more and more Hopefully all things will work out in the screwed the Joshua Kenz ARRGGH why can I suddenly see Scott Can you please Pope Edward more on the haiku surprised to see you so quickly dismissive of  not sure what Joshua means by or the basis for that Please xplain if you want out of respect to the Bishop of please do not call me Not sure what you are doing with your other than behaving like an But your So much is made of the liturgy these as if one form is to exclude good to participate in other rites from time to it seems to There are many valid and sacred I only go I have been to the Ukrainian Catholic Church by my house for divine liturgy I object strenuously to screwing up my Cyrillic with the letter tNET has devolved into blockean and nonblockean Sir it took me FOREVER to find a picture of you on the internet at here it Sir Isak I wonder if you had safe search on when you did that better clear the browser history before your wife finds searches for and this is our only alliance the That and into Is that for the in reference to your tNET status claim that no college reads more Aristotle and Thomas than this is simply my good Christendom College reads more The Metaphysics plus the minor books including On the Motion of plus most all of the as well has his minor treatises on And the students are not coerced into reading Freud is irrelevant in the world of psychology which is becoming increasingly Freud was not an advocate of empirical But the point why boast of Aristotle and when you read only a fraction of Catholic and students graduate with little or no understanding of sacred let alone even knowing what it or what it And if you do not know at least in how do you know Scott aka Jonathan Scott NP Jonathan NP Peregrine Peregrino Peregrina Natural Fights Theory Joshua Kenz I have a fascimile of a century Roman Joel is the canon was not Not one From maybe the century to in several medieval there were both in the place where the pope and local ordinary are named places added the king of France of and also in the list of in the local saints were So if Trent the it was only in standardizing a form that did not include latter additions The main thing in the Missal was standardizing the prayers at the the Dominican or Lyonese Standardizing the offertory prayers Dominican again culling prefaces and other medieval accretions In if you want to see the extent of Tridentine look at the Dominican The prayers as the the and to some degree the agnus before These are the parts that developed in the middle Trent favored the southeastern forms that took whereas the Dominican evidences the northeastern forms of gifts under one prayer Really all Trent did was cull some and choose between varying forms for other Now if you want to bash Tridentine the Divine Office is where it screwed the simplicity for it standardized the curial form of the in was simpler because things that made sense in a parochial made little sense in the without a that is another and in any case did not make a substantial change to the structure of the block but buy it and read it to your before it will make them smile and ensure they have sweet and pious The Blessed Book of Beasts Jonathan Scott Hot Off The Large Softcover Book of In this wonderful blessed you will learn from The state of thread Joshua did VII modify the canon or permit It modified even the the so called EP I is quite different from the pre canon This is kinda History of the Roman Canon the free encyclopedia This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public Catholic Robert Appleton These sources indicate the Roman Rite remained unchanged from around the Was it essentially the same in the year The liturgy of John Chrysostom we have today at my Church is from the author Michael described my book as The Blessed Book of Beasts Jonathan Scott Hot Off The Large Softcover Book of In this wonderful blessed you will learn from In addition to Joshua excellent suggestion of the renewal of Thomistic there needs to be a revitalization of lay apostolates understood as and a renewal and greater promotion of the Nerds I just felt like I needed to post something to stay in the flow of tNET There needs to be a renewal of schools that understand Catholic Dogma and sacred or what is the point of and what is the point of trying to revise history to make the Tridentine liturgy seem like the one in which the desert Fathers ah Desert Fathers were in the so of course they Revisionist history is different from what you engage in to be VII modify the Canon or add more the Consilium and they were led by the aptly named Annibale a a few refreshes Wish I The level of ignorance regarding Scott work in the field of Biblical Theology is pretty much But after having read attempts here at I guess I am not Anyone who would declare Hahn an amateur knows nothing of He writes popular books because they are catechetical and they help not about Subscribe to the Letter and Spirit Journal from his Paul Center for Biblical Theology if you want to see some of the best Biblical Theology Worth it for Pablo article on inerrancy and the discussion of the sake of our clause out of Dei Please tell me at least some of you have read Benedict Jesus of Nazareth Also have a look at the The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture Once Pater Edmund is making he knows Hahn is I think some Hahn detractors do not like him because he too explicitely shows that theology must be done in light of the full and complete interpretation of People do not like that because it takes away their right to choose their own version of But I say bravo to Scott Marie I mean to be sunshine on a cloudy but apart from the Scott Hahn has it all been that I you like Sir carricatures of buy my new book It is the first Catholic bestiary devotional written in hundreds of and great for parents and their The great Bernard Nathanson called it answered Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of is this the trolliest advertisement known to From the link Scott provided in one of the book this blessed discover why the Unicorn is a symbol for Scott Weinberg think Christ is is all getting from When are rad trads just beats when are Serpent was a dragon that Adam failed to fight off at risk of his Astounding it as in it stuns me anyone takes that I by no means say he has no good But it be a shocker to hear he has some peculiar Now in fairness to he will seriously engage he wrote a lengthy and charitable reply to a friend of mine who criticized him on the here be so quick to throw around accusations of I criticize him on at least on major issue he is the cup hypothesis he took from de Therefore I must be even though such an interpretation is not well supported historically and has theological implications that are I believe Escalante was the only one that called him an I would call him a even in his more serious academic And that is by no means an We need But legitimate criticism Like all virtues there are sins in the no virtue lies in the but we can never have too much virtue Hay Max you little Hey not the one who said Christ is a My horn shall be exalted like that of the unicorns are Rhinos are real Psalm why would we need to be saved FROM In the Middle the following were used as literary symbols for the the the Max Summe is an Physiologus the free encyclopedia The Physiologus is a didactic text written or compiled Scott is a Jerk Older depictions show them with a goat And there are goats with one it was a way of marking leaders of herds Here is the first authentic Catholic bestiary written since the Middle Onalee describes it as being in the tradition of Tolkien and Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the longest trolliest advertisement ever in the Middle several animals were part of a literary tradition in which they were used as symbols for These were pious manuscripts of Rhetoric known as the Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the And this is the first one written in hundreds of Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the And you should buy and read to your Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the And you also might learn something about your faith and the Catholic literary Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the times without scrolling up I thought adblock blocked things like you Scott   It is telling how TAC heretics bash Scott use vulgar state falehoods without engage in slander and and now also make false claims about the first book of its kind written in hundreds of Eastern Christian Publications Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the spamming Spam Monty The Flying Circus Subscribe to the Official Monty Python Channel here taken an still calling jerk an ignoramus and a neither pope PereScott an from the RELIGION NEWSWRITERS VA Immediate Eastern still and still just calling names switching up the ad Read you might learn The Blessed Book of Beasts There is a tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual Jesus I doubt you have anything to teach so pass sure already learned a few Hey you better get to Man of got a long to ahead of you one for I start work at But punctuality is a vice of so probably be there at a quarter like Sleep is for losers Long before the world was The was by an Angel With heavenly choirs and paeans Unto that where Wisdom first I hope you do not come off so arrogant in the work I will pray for probably I do work with however a Out of the same mouth that offers You make any an arrogant Catholic and I will pray for not exactly sure why I always seem to draw all your Have you talked to your priest about maybe because the only one who engages you when in your bad mood shtick I suspect mad because no one here has bought his I bring up Psalm because that is where I remember from in the features prominently in so I remember then all of a sudden a and arrogant ignoramus and a I stand by my WTF sorry I called you a but I will pray for My book is selling well The thing that draws my righteous indignation is your name and false attacks and false like Joel above to mention one of about in this You are supposed to be which means decent and You seem to have thrown all this Joshua I have come to respect your Theological knowledge by reading your but there is a lot of ignorance of Biblical Theology on this Every time I see anyone criticize Scott Hahn on it is always over the same things you usually the Holy Spirit met with the CDF to discuss that and the I do not hear much about the To be it is about as relevant to me as the criticism of JPII for the Assisi prayer Mother Teresa for Aquinas on the Immaculate Benedict XVI for his comment on compared to their body of it seems excessive to dwell on a couple of Each person mentioned here would submit their whole body of work to the judgment of the and to that is what He is a thank and is willing to sacrifice his reputation to bring people into the Church through his catechetical which is fine with I admit to being one of his students and I almost did not take my first class with him because I had heard the same stereotypes from students from the general Thank God I did decide to take his in Biblical and Systematic My who has his STB from sat in on one of my classes with Hahn and said he learned more from him in hours than he had in all of his prior Scripture Having grown up in the Church prior to the Universal Catechism of and subject to the rampant abuse of Historical Criticism that destroyed the Faith of most of the people I knew and Hahn has been such a gift to the Church that I can hardly quantify Unicorn is in the Douay Rheims Catholic The Unicorn was a literary symbol of Christ in the Middle These are just I KNOW SCOTT PSALM YOU Go I am not surprised that TAC types criticize Scott They seem to criticize so much without factual It is truly But God speed to you in your I am not saying I necessarily agree valid the above criticisms of Mother no I am not I actually do not and I am at is in the I know I mentioned it several times Not drinking is the first sign of a heresiarch no love for that gladdeneth the heart of I trust a man who Patton Have any of you seen this It is McArthur bless him in his to the of Ronald Essays Videos Thomas Aquinas College Alumnus Phil Halpin has uploaded two Shun the shuuuuuunnnnnn My heart is always The sacred teachings of the Church are my Has anyone on tNET bought your book Whenever I see that my heart is gladdened because I figure good for another and it has sold about thousand copies since its When you write a and you are lucky to get it the goal must be for the book to be but also for it to be something people will see and want to take home with Joel said Thank you I worked in DC for about as a writer in the Bush admin and in I am very good at generating I raised my family on politics for over a I and as I said I mean popularizer as an We need And I have been impressed that he has been willing to seriously address when one bothers to actually make it to The exchange between me and Daniel was almost an inside from a time where I got frustrated with and amateur apologists setting themselves up as believe I somewhat harshly bashed because so many quoted him as some Problem with learning theology via is about the Suddenly you are the enemy if you point out that this or that is open for criticism I remember exactly the issues I shared with but the cup was the issue that set me off on Probably in part after getting into it with a Catholic that treated a protestant insultingly who see the obviousness of My pointing out that it is not held by most Catholic authors and is fairly novel was seen as somehow an evil Since then my criticism is far more and the number one thing I would want him to do is in his popular more clearly distinguish his opinion from the Church teaching he The fault that set me off is as of on some of his readers if not more And it was somewhat brash to treat him as harshly as I once no was remembering my dislike and baiting But as I it has been not least because I have seen Hahn respond charitably to some of the I think he is on a high horse as some of his fans It was not an easy book to It took about ten and a year and a half of heavy lines of heroic That is not I am actually humbled and proud at the same It does not pretend to be high but it is Thank my sister is a published and YA and it took her I know it takes But shit call off your And I wish the founders and tutors of TAC would draw attention to the teachings of the the instead of the great my you got Any titles from your sister that you would Rogers Who is Jonathan Scott Weinberg actually do not and I am at captain I do not think Maybe that is drink And stays at Jonathan Scott is Scott Weinberg AFAICT he premptively blocked me this time Probably because last time he had multiple accounts I reported it as a Joshua Jonathan Scott is pen name that he uses for the Jonathan Scott is Peregrine pen Thought he was posting under yet another Jonathan Scott Weinberg has been used by him in his political trolling unlike I only advertise my initiatives every once in a And when I I only mention them someone besides me has inquired about the relation of the Five Ways to metaphysics and natural a question over which much ink has been both in the last century and in the millenia since You guys seem to like to talk a lot about but also seem to find discussion perilously Why is Discussion group for the philosophically minded O and why does TAC present the five ways as the first prinsiples of sacred Clearly they are but the Dogmas So why is there no outlay of Thanks for coming back to tNET This thread missed its troll buy this book it will help unravel the mystery for Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original You are a Not A troll is defined by false not true So why does TAC not present an outlay of Not doing so would be confusing to the Because TAC wants to get past the Baltimore Catechism stage of There you go denigrating Dogma to That is sheer Read this book Get back to Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of Because TAC is secretly plotting to use reason to overthrow the Now that you know the horrid secret will you find a new topic to talk no true or serious answer can be Good Consider the somebody take a nope when a rad trad declares a pope not I safely assume the rad trad is really protesting the earning the title The challenge is determining when the is leading their flock was raised in the la arch under Who brought Brown to One of last acts was removing all public access from Thus proving following the pope is a not a how brotherly the oldest of almost by pests my sister and I really on speaking terms only have but here it if interested in YA and abuse themes The Last Good Place of Lily Odilon have to get to her Murder Lily wild child from Some and question for rum or whiskey for a hot green honey and a is what I always give to my wife I add cinnamon and clove if I just drink the whiskey I understand YA fiction as a a book written for immature people who are kinda floating between childhood and maturity necessarily going to be a waste of Prayer request for a Kiera a cystic blockage of her causing Hot toddy is made with mostly just year old dirty I know about this particular but I sometimes think YA is now what was years there is a lot of but some really good writing that gets shunted off to the side and labelled Think of Philip for If you read let me know what you think sister and I are Irish so sometimes I feel like I knew where it was going on the first Well I accidentally used rather than green Used lime juice have a lime lemon tree honey and the crappiest Scotch whisky Joes Scotch in the cupboard whiskey was Knob and it would be blasphemy to add that to this to health no whiskey in the house so toast you with a beer Oops did you hear that if you drink mint tea and lime kill iced tea is a thing you A horrid but I doubt its lethality I was thinking of it specifically in the context of a hot the question form to ease Thomistic I think if anything is going to kill it is the whisky from Trader never tried the TJs Your eliminating my This is not I haven t tried their Bourbon or their Irish But my understanding is that they source from various mostly varying lesser As a I only drink Islay They sell a Speyside Scotch Michael explains why you have any whisky But is in limited limited availibility there are other explanations for You you would think my local would be the best stocked in the it Their bourbon Their headquarters is in the city I live So you would Rebel Yell is not a TJ It is just widely distributed via I think a TJ there is another Rebel Yell on the but in a completely different I Joshua Kenz are you talking about the bourbon they sell for something between I mean this James Layne used to but it at TJs all the time that probably And that is like a bottle One thing you beat California tobacco prices too forgot the price I only bought it once my senior year or Some of the lowest and unlike VA which had a lower state tax on cities and counties cannot impose taxes of tobacco or states have a lower state tax on but at least most of those have also taxing Though Texas has fairly low booze tax as I think at least TX is much less expensive than the DC rather be in Washington with no state income tax than have low alcohol How about Wyoming has no income tax or alcohol excise tax TX has no state income oh been there Wa and tx are on par TX is such a great Michael Beitia IL sucks I assume Washington means Washington State one in right mind would prefer which does have an income tax Texas The funny thing DC is one of the best states in the area to buy Funny is not a state years on ca and now in But it was cheaper than VA for booze  But more expensive for cigars and cigs Federal district Best ciagr shop near dc is in Alexandria IL is Cigs are super expensive in CHI and Cook county a little less Go south to Will reasonable heard that DC wine stores have to use an importer to acquire so they often have wines you get I drove through Chicago once and the cigar bar above it is turned the wrong way down a street plan I lived in had their own outrageous local tax that made it far more expensive than California Stopped at an Intelligentsia coffee shop in Logan Park Once was at a champaign bar in chi they also serve highlife When travelling I make sure to visit nice coffee shops whenever Logan I have a friend who works for I prefer Cafe owned by a younger sister of a TAC alumn Denver and Louis have been the best so But pizza patadisio in Alexandria is worth Louis is terrible Kansas City is great  qua coffee St Charles across the river has a great cigar Kansas city even has a decent brewery now Michael try to remember probably be heading up to Wisconsin in the next couple years for a Riverton Wy had a shop in was awesome Louis had some nice coffee shops that last time I was I like the funeral The only time I drove through Kansas it was raining like Houston in hurricane Then you missed excellent BBQ Max Summe knows what talking abut Michael God also at Cafe here in I was given a free shot have a liquor of Google it Which coffee shops in ask I was with him sort of Comet been to and their service and coffee were heard good things about Sump I know what the shop is but their coffee is I spent the first Obama election night in They do Should have looked me up Is spent the last bush election night at chirsisdom college they do bars After the first round the owner bought We were there until am I only existed on FB after I left my She ha cancer Joshua Kenz KC has many decent breweries now lots of microbrews happening This is Looks like Scott reported my last photoshop of his face on a The truth I did it get And apparently I am a pig Michael looks like you have not yet graduated from Yes it did hahahaha What should we do about this Any I have a There are one or two good wine shops in Next time you are in you look in at MacArthur Beverages out on MacArthur Ask for Phil Bernstein and ask him about German Prepare to have your mind In STL Sump and Blueprint Coffee are both can really be but hit and Any other cities you need advice ask the John did you see the following Pope Pius A letter in defense of Cardinal Newman Blessed John Henry Newman like many nuanced At this Edmund and Liz Neill are the only things separating the Thread from a who love and Is that a male I just popped in to check things out and saw that the topic has changed to connoisseurship and the ladies seem to have But for the I like and This thread does tend to repeat I recall a similar discussion of coffee shops in Louis back around  Just check back later It might rev up Nothing stays the same long on all Just purchased ten pounds of coffee to as someone who has to drive down the a you have a very innocent use of that Earlier I called this a I think Katherine is just getting equal here Feminism and all  That is just when the lactating moms get on to pass the midnight feeding It would be cool if there were an actual club with cigars and the though my understanding is that the term was no cleaner in the century than its us today for strip Seeing all the prurient billboards done the sorry hear the phrase club innocently  Pater Edmund was this Pius X article in response to Peregrine Scott calling Newman a heretic those of us who read him seriously are heretics by John Ruplinger was the one bashing  My memory is failing I think Scott also took issue with But tNET is Not fully can search your own posts Joshua I meant it in a Wodehousian I see we are back to the status People being accused of Scott was actually in the  Not on the reading of asking a serious question I really need to I just noticed a personal message from Scott in my in which I read the most myopic hypocrisy I have ever Does he have some kind of mental problem that mitigates his Is he genuinely not completely responsible for the garbage he Should I not be dealing with him as if he is a rational  It is hard to tell on fb but some people wiser and more charitable than myself have suggested  It is funny you word it like you are asking Like asking the Ball  Unstable is the best word I Anything else is just speculation as far as I know no diagnosis there is gnosis   It seems to be at times really bad and other times he is more So there is that maybe  I asked the Mystery Ball and it said   take it personally all Just  You are a reasonable person trying to make sense out of something that is not I know if a reasonable I just suffer fools Anyone here know what the distinction Newman makes between certainty and certitude I was at a lecture today and the lecturer was playing up this distinction as key to thought on the reasonableness of Certainty is by certitude is by for Newman and the rest of the English speaking So study the exegesis of the interpretation of this is the beginning of sacred Not At least know Psalm Blessed be the Lord my who teacheth my hands to and my fingers to My and my my and my My and I have hoped in who subdueth my people under what is that thou art made known to or the son of that thou makest account of Man is like to his days pass away like a bow down thy heavens and touch the mountains and they shall Send forth and thou shalt scatter shoot out thy and thou shalt trouble Put forth thy hand from on take me and deliver me from many from the hand of strange Whose mouth hath spoken and their right hand is the right hand of To O I will sing a new on the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings I will sing praises to Who givest salvation to who hast redeemed thy servant David from the malicious Deliver And rescue me out of the hand of strange whose mouth hath spoken and their right hand is the right hand of Whose sons are as new plants in their Their daughters decked adorned round about after the similitude of a Their storehouses flowing out of this into Their sheep fruitful in abounding in their goings Their oxen There is no breach of nor nor crying out in their They have called the people that hath these but happy is that people whose God is the American Edition Read this book to your it will fill their hearts with good Eastern Christian Publications Perfect for parents and their grandparents and the The Christian bestiary is the original kind of and this is the first one written in and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Written in the manner of While TAC snobs struggle with concepts of radical Islamic group torches churches and kill over Boko Haram Torch Churches in Captured Towns of Borno and Adamawa Islamist terror group insurgency displaces over JACK MOORE Jody Haaf would you like a good example of Boasting of Thomistic then not studying the infallible interpretation of Scripture in its entirety because you think this is Louis and Denver are And Katherine only complained about you guys because she missed Isak Benedict clear from TAC obsession that something is not right with Max Summe must mean something like the maximum sum of ignorant Isak was hauled up before the fb court of Mark Zuckerberg for public Yes such a In no way are you responsible for an odd statement the sum of I just find it funny a bit how TAC alum boast of scholarship of Thomas and yet struggle over the most basic understanding of the Dogmas of the TAC is the father of  Did you actually report Yes you are absolutely responding to a statement that just and not to a conversation existing only in your Whineberg really is a fitting A mountain of another odd the summ of all erroneous And not whining or simply stating that the boast of TAC is odd and and that TAC is generating because they do not understand Scott I think you need Christendom College reads more Aristotle than Plus they present theology in its proper And they boast like you chest you probably do not know what any of this Not as a You should go to a priest you trust and ask them to recommend a good I think you need to study what the Church If you go to you definitely need to study what the Church If consciously you can bring everything back to a subject that has nothing to do with being But if actually this obsessed with TAC you need not trolling You might think I am because you are a but I am I am just amazed at how odd it is that TACers boast of their then attack Scott Hahn and stumble over things like the difference between certitude and and confuse Dogma with TAC is pooled and may I guess you are in that You think TACers are one person with one set of The obsession should be worrying to It is not good to carry around in heart so much TAC is a But in the most general you when TACers as a whole make claims like they teach under the guidance of the then a group of them slander people like Scott Hahn and then larger groups of them stumble over the most simple elements of and others promote it becomes an Obsession Definition and More from the Free Dictionary Definition of obsession from the Gentlemen the man is and all the credit you give him is like a game in which you crown a cretin and then become outraged when he is found to be a bad TNET is a status update which wandered into a drew the attention of an obsessive and rather than leaving him to the care of the nice ladies in white presumably keeping him from accidentally stabbing made him the equivalent of a conversational hamster wheel to the tune of posts out of forget to remember Well to be fair Tommy Scott was gone for probably close to so I think really the point of this It was the spark that started Nobody on the thread has promoted that I have noticed TAC and its students are simply unable to account for your only response to very fair questions is to you boast of your amazing whilst stumbling over the simplest of confusing Dogma with and on and on and Samantha Cohoe never said she thought it would be a fair and good idea for TAC to introduce feminism into its just a this so not promoting its promoting that is promoting Scott Psychological projection the free encyclopedia Psychological projection is a theory in psychology And these two images trump what amounts to inane idolatry of the Angelic We read lots of stuff in seminar we think is as long as its a great  Feminism is an so to advocate for its inclusion in the great books is an To advocate the great books as the essence of education is also Scott you even know how to And if you want to advocate then advocate Teresa of to be fair and Scott again I just blocked Max because he is a pest and does not know how to have a reasonable to advocate for the inclusion of feminist ideology into the TAC curriculum is an ideological Forasmuchas TAC remains confused about what Catholic sacred theology and limits it to Thomas and a few this would only add to the heterodoxy of the I think Scott blocked So And by the Thomas or any one can you tell me what the true and actual beginning of sacred theology Simple Would you honestly be able to say it is the infallible interpretation of Scripture in Her sacred and not five And if then why do you not teach How many of these Dogmas do you include in your outstanding great books Someone should point out he blocked me he handle the Or did he leave Things blew up If feminism means treating women according to their true then count me as a if you could answer a simple that might justify your It is a question of truth and honesty in regards to the Catholic I do not see TAC producing many ambassadors of Just a bunch or arrogant Feminism does not mean The beginning of understanding the dignity of women is in understanding the Dogma of the Immaculate because this contains an anthropology of But you and others are unable to do Your even of collapses into I was just making a little I will add a smiley face to make it  I think you are right that turning to Mary is essential for understanding the dignity of a TAC grad advocating for the inclusion of feminism into the TAC I think you are right that turning to Mary is essential for understanding the dignity of And I might Just because you read something mean you agree with And feminism is a defining ideology of our TAC reads many things the necessarily agree and then goes on to help find the found in each If turning to to understand the dignity of women and is then in this did so many TAC alum a college which boasts of its adherence to the Church introduce profane physiology into a discussion on the Immaculate If you read things you disagree you read at Conception is kind of a profane term I disagree that feminism is a defining ideology of our We talk about womb every time we say the Hail pretty I guess that is what is so great about the the profane has been made By conception is not a profane That turns a definition on its head and that is not a reasonable statement to Is Scott still on the or did he just I that is not what is meant by the And it was precisely because of the Immaculate Conception that the sacred remained sacred in Scott is still I think you disagree with the a little sad missing half the Womb and Conception are not crude physiological jests that droves of TACers were I think this says as does advocating for feminism into the while not advocating for the inclusion of a theology of the Immaculate Conception and related Dogmas and This wreaks of corruption and I think you may not know about some of the things you are talking about in some in areas where you probably I am rather offended by Max is a petulant little undergrad who still has many lessons in life to you are offended you are not always when you may be it seems like you mistake the way your words might come What you said think you may not know about some of the things you are talking about in some in areas where you probably The final clause implies Does TAC teach that sacred theology begins with the infallible interpretation of Scripture Yes or womb and conception are perfectly physiological and to think otherwise is to have a disconnection with If you have graduated from and TAC boasts under the light of the Catholic and you define the Incarnation as the meeting of the sacred and you are at Profane just means outside the Which I think is a cool Conception is a theological term when speaking of the Immaculate This does not give license to engage in profanity and Unfortunately for I am currently writing my License Thesis on how the profane has been made sacred through the and so I really know what I am talking about on this I will mention only GS for Filius incarnatione sua cum omni homine quodammodo se And human nature of all men is taking to himself the one human nature of man is an event which affects every human consequently human nature in every human being is henceforward Christologically I think when discussing the Immaculate it is perfectly reasonable to do as Scott is suggesting and distinguish between biological conception and the meaning of conception in the Dogma of the Immaculate the Catholic Church defines profane showing irreverence toward God or sacred as in using vulgar physiological terms to derail a public discussion on the theology of the Immaculate Obfuscation means to distort a trend or as in what you are doing by falsely claiming that the said profanities were the words conception and This is there you are speaking of as a I I am I was confused about the As in an act of or in the use of profane words or I should have been more My Interesting Scott it looks like a bunch of people talking to a shared imaginary But the difficulty was rather and was not my fault at I recall all the details of that part of the thread that was probably comments but I do no recall anyone being intentionally I find that A theological discussion about the Immaculate Conception is not a discussion about virginity or lack thereof in the sense of the let us not go perpetual virginity is distinct from Her Immaculate and is even more distinct from human physiology and This is what amazes TAC students seem to approach all things from natural Theology requires A Dogma like the Immaculate Conception is not first approached in this bottom up It must first be understood top from assent faith seeking I find TAC to be profane and and oftentimes in its approach to much of the Here is a great quote from Gregory of there was needed a lifting up from death for the whole of our He streatches forth a hand as it were to prostrate and stopping doens to our dead corpse He came so far within the grasp of death as to touch a state of and then in His own body to bestow on our nature the principle of raising as He did by His power along with Himself the whole For since from no other source than from the concrete lump of our nature had come that which was the receptacle of the I think anyone would every lecture a biologist on how to do The Blessed Virgin certainly has human though maybe I misunderstand your Nor would one ever lecture a composer on how to write of one were a or a the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was of the house of and the name was It is that all kinds of people feel perfectly justified in telling a theologian how to do No degree Gregory of Nyssa is but Gregory of Nyssa is not the infallible interpretation of So does The Incarnation would be meaningless if this were not Are we talking about virginitas in partu something a certain person would The Blessed Virgin Mary understood geometry This does not mean that sophomoric gynecology or even geometry is the first step to understanding the Dogma of the Immaculate  Not everyone on the thread was a so do not assume that everything said here is anything other than the words of the person saying Here is something for Tom and Samantha in memory of their exchange on the Church defines sacred theology as beginning with assent to the infallible interpretation of I know many at TAC seem to struggle with perhaps because they want to do things their own and not many people will see their blunder because the world is full of darkness and something is seen as being better than I am not assuming that everyone on this thread is a TAC student or But the preponderance of fallacy is if you mean I am not a That is I am asking a simple which is justified by your Yet you do not seem to answer Where does sacred theology But I know what you refer to and you have misapplied it to I fail to see how one can set the Holy the the Papacy and Our Lady against the fresco depicting the work of and multiple sainted Popes of blessed say it that Pentecost depiction looks like something one finds in a CCD handbook for graders from the I think Does TAC understand that sacred theology begins with assent to the infallible interpretation of If they then why do they not teach it this or teach what little of it they do teach in this I fail to see how TAC can decontextualize Thomas and set him against the infallible interpretation of Revelation in its would one ever lecture a composer on how to write Gustin you claim I have misapplied something to My claim is that TAC does not teach sacred theology as beginning with the infallible interpretation of In other it begins with I do not see how I have misapplied I have presented an accurate numerous TAC alum denigrate this And several TAC barbarians have attacked me with This is Like all proper sacred theology begins internally in relationship to the external and Then through through empirical evidence of greater things about you you think of and you list of superlatives in alphabet soup and stick them on the wall to see what falls That is how we did it in let anyone know this was  Another great quote from Gregory of Since all things in the both deeds and have a sublime and heavenly and there is nothing in it which is not that which does not exhibit a complete mingling of the human with the where the utterance exerted and the deeds enacted are human but the secret sense represents the it would follow that in this particular as well as in the rest we must not regard only the one element and overlook the but in the fact of this death we must contemplate the human while in the manner of it we must be anxious to find the that is a false definition of sacred That is not the definition of sacred Sacred according to the begins with the infallible teaching on TAC does not teach Own It confuses its and generates I ask a simple in under bright and I am attacked relentlessly by sycophantic TAC trolls and It really is a though Why are so happy to lecture theologians on The only one decontextualizing Aquinas here is You know me and assume I have these seven demons you need to cast you assume I read Aquinas apart from the You really know so as far as my case and understanding of Church you are welcome to go repent in ashes and sackcloth for that is beside the I do not have to know you to know that TAC does not teach what the Church teaches about where sacred theology I agree though no could lecture composers as she was the master of a higher Theology though is the highest science of For those of us who are pursuing speculative matters while the world I would urge you to once again take up this fine essay by Learning in Bradley Green BRAD GREEN that is another Are you suggesting you are a Then tell me where the Church says theology begins the Vatican calls me Even if I am only a little But it is a great books and what are the first principles of sacred please tell me what are the first principles of sacred Daniel I am perfectly fine with the who knows more than all the philosophers before Christ criticizing the pride of our I am just wondering about your statement that my claim is Pater can you tell us what the first principles of sacred theology according to the I am fine with that Pater It is just an interesting There are some terrible theologians these Sad to but And TAC does not seem to be helping that is so hard to be prudent about responding to these Sacred Theology begins with Revelation with the divine This is also where the education at TAC developing familiarity with Then the students begin to read the fathers who explain how to interpret the sacred in particular Thomas comes in only after a couple of years of The five ways are not posited as the There is some reasonable debate about the way proofs from reason should be understood to serve merely as external when understood from a perspective of as already belonging within But they are certainly no SOURCE of the subject No one I have ever met at TAC has claimed that reason alone is the source of sacred nor incidentally have I met any Catholic at TAC denying the Immaculate I know that this gives me any special but I do have an STM in sacred theology and a PhD in and I did write my dissertation on I think I would notice these faults if I ran into What is the difference between allowing the vernacular and the eastern Before Vatican was there an expectation that eastern churches would need to switch to As a good despite the small sample size of Christendom students present I will say that TAC is helping more than producing that that is Sacred theology begins with the infallible interpretation of though I admire your veiled defence of TAC freshman You claim it begins with just This is Scott would the folks in Front Royal if they knew how you conducted yourself in the infallible interpretation of Scripture is only one of three Katherine Gardner is a real theologian I would be careful lest your ignorance be manifested too I am asking a Do you have a problem with Clearly TAC does not teach sacred theology in an orthodox  hmmm this looks I guess it proves that The Neverending Thread is a circle as Peregrine and under your own your behavior speaks for I too am asking a simple would the folks in Front Royal react if they knew what you were up sacred theology does not begin sola It begins with the infallible interpretation of That is I am God bless everyone and happy Feast of the Holy I will say mine today for more like a Mobius no one said sola a straw man Jeff nothing of the kind before or after VII since the Eastern rites you different many people in Front Royal are my dear and we are proud of our  Given that Katherine is a real perhaps more of us should follow her  I asked Katherine what the beginning of sacred theology and she essentially articulated TACs freshman and sophomore She stated that it begins with She did not say it begins with the infallible interpretation of all I have to How can an interpretation of the word precede the still a straw there are three Scripture Tradition Magisterium How is that a straw A TAC theologian ommitted the infallible in her definition of the principle of sacred That is a and no straw not quite what she now is She said it begins with Revelation the Divine for is not synonymous with Sacred She said it begins with Scripture falls under I would like to note how response included those sacred theology also includes the infallible teaching on the tradition handed down from the Apostles that is not contained in Sacred Maybe Scott needs to be more clear about what he is Scripture IS Sacred theology begins with the infallible interpretation of You TACers do not know what you are talking Dogma is an expression of the which is prior to happy to be corrected if scripture is but revelation is not scripture I said Scripture is becoming more convinced that you Revelation includes scripture and  Thank you Daniel Yes revelation IS out of collective inability to define the principles of the sacred science is almost Tradition is revelation Look it up Revelation does not include the infallible interpretation of is part of inability to spell is sadly very Unwritten Tradition Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in Scott would you listen Not a not a not your fellow lay Should we get a Christendom prof in thanks for doing the legwork for us Pater Revelation ended with the death of the last in the final book of the You you TAC do not know your This is basic the teachings of Christ to the Apostles that was not written in the Gospels is called Unwritten tradition is not the beginning of sacred Written Dogma You guys are in Let no one say that no good ever came from Some of the are quite and TACers should realize that the TAC way is not the only and may not even be the best way not the best to do vs your is yet more now he just contradicted you guys are like or a swarm of I would just like to point out that Katherine Gardner is an Ave Maria none of the theologians here got their Doctorates from TAC you say above that Tradition is when the Church teaches infallibly that Revelation ended with the death of the last My guts are like but it is probably the refried beans I made myself last night when you were calling me Ave grads are defs I may be forced to Written dogma is the beginning of sacred not revelation Do you have text for Jesus taught them many other Hahn makes this argument not reading or  above you claim revelation includes This is The Church teaches dei fide that revelation ended with the death of the last What school did you go Scott is confusing the means by which the first principles are known with the first principles Jesus taught them many other Scott produce the place where the church teaches that de I already qualify The teachings of Christ to the Apostles not specifically written down in the Gospels is called what Lauren myself and Scott Hahn have pointed out is that Tradition comes from Jesus and the written dogma is the infallible interpretation of written And this is the beginning of sacred Katherine was saying that only written Scripture From this false it would follow that interpretation of Scripture could be the beginning of So you answer me But I do not have time for Your errors are and I do not have time to teach what you should have been taught God ducking the question again No she said Revelation itself was the chirp chirp chirp revelation itself is not the beginning of sacred The infallible interpretation thereof She ommited Wrong Please do make good on your promise to leave and go Scott you have any magisterial support for your Bye have no evidence or record of Christ teaching anything to the Apostles that is not included in the infallible interpretation of Unles you have but that would probably be You know you taught high school and you are a nerd when you giggle a little when you read the latin word Ok so then the actual events depicted in scripture are not prior to scripture where did you study question you do it so how can you dismiss Scott Hahn so And the like saying that a baseball game on TV is prior to the real event being DUH As Newman correctly I the deep root and beginning of all sacred doctrine and belief is the Incarnate Go read the letter and come back to he began to teach them many for Joel and The Church teaches infallibly that revelation ended with the death of the Apostle and that sacred theology begins not just with this not just with the written word of but with the infallible interpretation of Tradition is an ongoing development conveyed through the sacramental life and in the life of the Here Scott The sacred and and general Synod of assembled in the Holy the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding this always in errors being the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the which before promised through the prophets in the holy our Lord Jesus the Son of first promulgated with His own and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every as the fountain of both saving and moral and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written and the unwritten traditions received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ or from the Apostles the Holy Ghost have come down even unto transmitted as it were from hand to Newman is not the Holy but Newman is correct when he says these  Whether you admit it or other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his which are not written in this But these are that you may believe that Jesus is the the Son of and that you may have life in his Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the and hands it on to their successors in its full so that led by the light of the Spirit of they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God explain and make it more widely Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and So the Council of Trent says there are Not Your paraphrase omits the infallible truth that sacred theology begins not just with as freshman theology but with the infallible interpretation This is our and the Tradition of the Apostles in the teaching as well as in our sacred Bye God still tail between did many other things as If every one of them were written I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be coffee and donuts now the day can really you seen About not never Leo I get I have magisterial documents supporting exactly what is being put and he always ignores Max Summe may be right about his it has been remarked in the tNET eternal return of the The dog returns to own Donkeys prefer straw to WAR IS THE FATHER OF DIOGENES If only I could rub my stomach and make my hunger go I get why any of you are still giving Winebag the satisfaction of noticing  Let us not insult one of signs of love for  is my You people taking troll bait over and over far from offended as a He does distress me as a grammar Nazi And also his persistent little habit of being lissomely irrational is fun to how are have you material heretics figured out what revelation is Can you please give me your interpretation of so I can fit it into What was this about the infallible interpretation of He kind of reminds in a strange of a who joined the SSPX and eventually lost his Also a little bit of a fellow who came to the Center for Thomistic who was a at his previous because that made him Suddenly surrounded by who actually know Thomas rather than just interpretation of he became a since no one else here does Having a conversation with either was always really at any a funny thing about those with the hubris of They always assume the majority of the Church is in and they are did you read what Michael Beitia wrote Hey Looks like I missed the I was going to ask Scott if including Das Capital in the curriculum is the same as promoting communist One time I got the wives to lead a seminar for us TAC ladies about Mulieris  Did Scott Samantha His last comment appears to have been about a half and hour Public revelation is binding on all The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was and therefore was with the death of the last The infallible interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred Dei Verbum actually on again I would like to say to Pater Edmund that the article he linked to about the virginitas in partu stuff just rehashed our argument from comments and was not conclusive and after birth could merely be to reassure those who were confused about the importance of and therefore thought natural childbirth would violate virginity I have thoughts about I want to scandalize what about The sacred and and general Synod of assembled in the Holy the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding this always in errors being the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the which before promised through the prophets in the holy our Lord Jesus the Son of first promulgated with His own and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every as the fountain of both saving and moral and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written and the unwritten traditions received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ or from the Apostles the Holy Ghost have come down even unto transmitted as it were from hand to Scott you actually read Dei see that Scripture and Tradition are from the same divine and one sacred deposit of the word of committed to the Joel the worst that could happen would be fore Scott to leave in a huff did I say I meant Seems like Sacred Tradition would be included in the account of Including Das Capital in a curriculum may in fact be the introduction of an Das capital was certainly written to promote an Introdicing feminst ideology as Samantha is now doing in her inappropriate conversation about the virtues of Mary you even Do you understand and hold as true the dogma of the Immaculate Conception into a curriculum is clearly an effort to advance feminist I am shocked this is even being discussed amongst TAC comments later he figures it Samantha she still led the charge to read Mulieris And Pater Edmund linked to the article I was referring so blame him A worthwhile I am just going by what the as a teaches She teaches that Revelation ended with the death of the last the interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred I was Catholic written by a No That is part of the Now I see your Scott Dei It say what you think it And the end of public revelation bit is a red as that is true on all I do not think you should be discussing the virtues of Mary surrounding the Birth of if you do not hold to the teachings about Mary with This is why private revelation is a bit more And trust that Revelation ended with the death of the last the interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred out of respect to the Faith of and because some aspects of Mary can only be known by and if you do not adhere to this then you cannot talk about those aspects without especially in this very sacred cut and paste in my browser right but Read Dei Verbum Chapter II assuming Catholic teaching and trying to see what follows from it and what Why I do Lines like the handing on what they themselves had warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of fairly jump out at your implication is out of context The Church teaches that Revelation ended with the death of the last the interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred These are Catholic truths and Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred For both of flowing from the same divine in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the and hands it on to their successors in its full so that led by the light of the Spirit of they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God explain and make it more widely Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and This is not This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred Because this is a discussion of sacred theology and sacred theology does not always follow in that what other magisterial documents can we bring is a but for our common be it known that she is a Queen so and so ready to help us in our that the Church wills that we should salute her in this prayer under the title of Queen of Liguori This is This infallible interpretation is part of the If Revelation ended with the death of the last it ended after the last bit of Sacred Scripture was Uh oh troll Unde sicut musica credit principia tradita sibi ab ita doctrina sacra credit principia revelata sibi a that is as when a moral doctrine is developed or codified in a this is part of Sacred very much doubt Scott reads so that is probably ineffective you are the I am a simple layman asking questions and defending a Catholic defending it from no and misunderstanding what you however if tradition is simply the infallible interpretation of what part of Scripture is infallibly interpreted to refer to the Immaculate greatness of kings and says in relieving the ibid I am defending a couple of things Revelation ended with the death of the last and this is what the Church Sacred theology begins with the infallible interpretation of this ensures truth in Just as music is founded on the authority of principles taught to it by so sacred theology is founded on principles revealed to it by Tradition is not simply the infallible It is broader than But Dogma is part of Then what about what is being said do you disagree I think reading very carefully no one argues with Scott tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of committed to the Dei How do you explain that entail that on the Catholic includes the deposits of both Sacred tradition and Sacred Luke of There are a couple other references which implicitely support the The Dogma is part of our It is also a principle of sacred assented to by Thomas opposed the the Apostles have taught it since the time of before the death of but not explicitly written in the tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of committed to the Sacred Tradition is principally the infallible interpretation of Sacred the revealed word of Scripture and the infallible interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred no it they are two separate to the Church means although a is not a queen of intent on intent on the punishment of the but a queen of intent only on commiseration and pardoning ibid ONE sacred not are you denying that there is teaching outside of Scripture that is ONE sacred deposit is formed by Scripture and something therefore Scripture is not the Sacred QED I never said it was the I said it was there is a lot of teaching outside of Dogma and But I assume you mean that when the Apostles what they taught was formed the early stages of our Is this what you the task of authentically interpreting the word of whether written or handed has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus about so not sure how your position can be reconciled with kingdom of justice reserved for and that of mercy he yielded to Mary Glories of Mary what Joel quoted this is I But I do not think it matters so much how the first Dogma came What matters is that it was the infallible interpretation of Scripture and part of and a principle of sacred what is your problem with Scott argument about Jesus teaching as a basis for Feil Samantha Cohoe you be reading your copy of so you can tell us how it not sure I do have a problem with What is going to blow mind is learning that Scott is actually an invention of a Catholic version of it here we have settled the question that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition comprise the Deopsit of or We further see the MAgesterium as the guide in understanding the truths in the Deposit of Are we all  ordaining at the same time that all mercies that are dispensed to men should pass through the hands of to be disposed of by her at ibid I think we are I feel Not No look like quite my cup of to be honest more of the cold analytical  And I only find animals interesting qua I would call you fiery and analytic Samantha Caleb is more the cold Feil Is everyone reporting this constant If you should Repeated posting of the same an ad which has already been is spamming and can be reported to But congratulations on publication all the I wish I could be less less from and to the But I I am only getting can say that again I take that as a Being poetic is as long as a poet knows the place of poetry in the orders of I meant it as I would also call you fiery and Big Catherine Joliat but where do we draw the Pater Edmund has linked to his own blog almost as many There might have been a little in my Samantha did they still do Trivial and Quadrivial pursuit in But no one is going to report because we like revelation is not the deposit of revelation is not the interpretation of revelation is the sacred word of revealed to man through the writers of it ended with the death of the Apostle the deposit of the faith is the infallible interpretation of Feil Samantha Cohoe Pretty sure Pater Edmund is not linking to the same post over and It would be neat if anyone in the whole world said what just said about And Joel team was cruelly robbed of  Poetry should be part of sacred poetry is often included in sacred Team Dunkel for the most epic Trivial and Quadrivial pursuit win so was The most corrupt and venal Poetry is used by Sacred just like every Which possibly also makes it the most are you saying that the infallible interpretation of revelation is part of I do you think God is handing down revelation to the Church when the Church promulgates a If you are Like I but when the President of the son in law is one of the you recognize losing is probably going to come sooner than later Adrw bought the tutors by handing out expensive bottles of wine like party favors Not every science is used in sacred Only those sciences which are No like I and others have said several Revelation is Sacred Tradition and Sacred the three of us split a good fifth of single malt before the The infallible interpretation of revelation is Poets have always been rawk and some might even be lazy But people idolize them and their Jealous philosophers compensate by talking even though most of them actually philosophizing it covered up the sting of Revelation is not Sacred Tradition That is One could hardly begrudge Aaron Dunkel his victory that entrance was so I know why you continue to espouse false and heretical teachings Tradition is Revelation Do you really hate the Tradition is not You We have quoted texts and funny but you should go back and learn your Tradition is conveyed through the sacramental life of the Church and in the acts of the That is not part of You are finish up my Trent following the examples of the orthodox receives and venerates with an equal affection of and all the books both of the Old and of the New that one God is the author of both also the said as well those appertaining to faith as to as having been either by own word of or by the Holy and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous I was later told by an inside source that I was considered as a team but ruled out because I am a I thought you would understand magesterium at you are falsely claiming Tradition has and Revelation is I was actually asked to be a team but declined so that I could be on Joel they have broken away from the women restriction I might have declined in order to be on Joel But Samantha As the Scripture clearly no woman should ever lead a Trivial Pursuit although they may lop off the head of an attacking enemy leader and bring it back with them to campus as a token of And Daniel is demonstrating why there are so few female what women have they I believe it was Liz Rosema  here we go again so few or contemporary female Feil Samantha Cohoe I was on the team that times in turkey But the team I led to victory re Trivial Pursuit was We won by answering randiest book in the the Song Of Many sought to penalize us for the use of the word but the truth won out that fine and the piñata was one of my favorite parts Have to admit I that event a little down unto the we at Chez Whitey We had Nicky Our turkey bowl strategy get the ball to Nicky Daniel is trumping her theological bona and at the same time claiming that God continued to reveal through the and claiming that everyone agrees with I for one do Nor does the When Dillon reminded me that to correctly answer the Theology question required a pure we asked if he wanted Vodka Nobody said And your are I suppose the Magisterium should suport quotas for female so things are And thanks to the Hannah Barbera Adventures Stories from the I knew the names of those four the only answer that was not sophistry in some way obnoxious we could report account Pathetic and obnoxious is claiming you are a then claiming God continued to reveal beyond the age of the last Where did you learn to Do we blame Christendom for After all this just agree to shall sneaky plan to kill tNET Pathetic is trumpeting your Aristotle and Thomas then claiming that Revelation continued past the death of the last all take a vote on how Scripture should be I Lets vote by throwing pennies into jars that are feet away I think anyone is claiming but rather that not all Revelation is contained in the written and thus is expounded through the teaching authority of the Magisterium after the death of the last often tempted to go once more into the thinking that all Scott needs is someone to lay out the problems more Then I realize that all is vanity and a striving after If it takes me longer than months to finish my I blame Scripture is therefore not the only theological source of the Revelation made by God to His Side by side with Scripture there is side by side with the written revelation there is the oral CATHOLIC Tradition and Living Magisterium The word tradition refers sometimes to the thing or transmitted from one generation to another sometimes to the organ or mode of the transmission no one claimed another read so good Just read what you are saying Read what Daniel She wrote that revelation is how the Church interprets Good  You guys are on a roll this nope you still read but maybe the ax to grind your skillz  So according to be allowed at a college that studies Quote from above targeted at of respect to the Faith of and because some aspects of Mary can only be known by and if you do not adhere to this then you cannot talk about those aspects without especially in this very sacred Christian doctrine concerning the Bible had to be explained to the faithful and the guarantee of this doctrine The Bible had been committed to the care of the living It was the part to guard the to present it to the faithful in authorized editions or accurate it was for her to make known the nature and value of the Divine Book by declaring what she knew regarding its inspiration and it was for her to supply the key by explaining why and how it had been how it contained how the proper object of that Revelation was not purely human instruction but a religious and moral doctrine with a view to our supernatural destiny and the means to attain the Old Testament being a preparation and annunciation of the Messias and the new there might be found beneath the husk of the letter typical and that is an  It is but my kids know people on this thread by At least the stars like Scott Thanks for picking up on Interpretation of Revelation is not God You are the only faithful Catholic who says You have no you should at least try to be No  Samantha what is your faith Why did you choose You even have friends that agree with you on this  Wait I am just quoting you if I tell you it will make Pater Edmund That is not You are saying that God continues to reveal to This is A false interpretation using a tertiary exactly try to be reasonable I chose TAC because I liked the Great and because I wanted to become a Never said that    No you are not I said that there is no point discussing sacred doctrines if you do not assent to You discuss so few of them at Instead of selling of maybe you should start selling I discuss Catholic doctrines because I want to understand No point to is there you are using the Catholic Encyclopedia to claim that Revelation if being given to man by God through Church This is  But IF we did discuss doctrines according to the principles of Pope would we then have to block the  You are wrong It is to be of sad that my gastrointestinal system is more accepting of reason than there is no point to that because you do not assent to You cannot understand them without assent by  As an it have been great to be able to people in class the way you can on a So Catholic doctrine is that is a troll Daniel is asserting that God continues to hand down Revelation through She must be confusing this with private revelation or But her claims are it is Catholic Dogma is but to understand you must first assent by supernatural no he read for the love of all that is good and Holy if you are gonna screw up gender you may as well go all the way and just use it be great if we could make up our own Catholic  is Daniel a If the teaching is and I have then I should be able to understand it using CCC Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the teaching in communion with the successor of in a particular to the bishop of pastor of the whole without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and To this ordinary teaching the faithful to adhere to it with religious though distinct from the assent of is nonetheless an extension of Maybe not but enough to discuss and profit from discussion not if you do not assent to the principle by Catechism of the Catholic Church I have to assent to principles to see what follows from those principles of means the teachings of Jesus both in the scriptures and It is no more complex than this you answered Scott Not sure about that last I think it is impossible to discuss sacred mystery reasonably without assent by You just argue like LUNCH is it going to be liquid like your breakfast do you the courtesy of one final genuine response before I shove off and stop wasting my as a refers to the act whereby God gives to human beings some truth about including those means whereby we may be reconciled to This truth is It may forever more be made better known by the inquiries of human Such inquiries are by and to human They are not the Magisterium may teach inexhaustibly from this initial deposit of It is not a new but a progressive Domina nostra Sacri ora pro Happy feast especially Happy Lepanto is anyone a bit disturbed by the fact that Scott suddenly started using feminine pronouns about done it to me in the past  typical passive aggressive way of dismissing cause womyn think Is it supposed to my Or  Why does he have so much I showed several significant portions of The Thread to a Christendom She is appalled and ashamed of how Scott is representing her Alma Mater and would like her disgust Club this Sort of like when he started calling me Samantha I am really trying to understand where his line of argument is coming I know if he understands how much levity I bring to this insane and we should pray for I just really get why he is holding worlds greatest troll It really Scott the Like in the movie Sometimes I think that he is a demon come to test last night I was  Pray for the poor mentally And you totally broke your own tNET is turning into a support group for survivors of conversations with Scott but I take him seriously I have really been trying to take this argument the argument I hope I Ruplinger totally misread the happens when the comments come too But as the famous webcomic is on the not like going to seek him out to have a beer with Max can do that Speaking of mentally I still want to know my stats on this Edward  I think it is sufficiently clear that Katherine response was Michael Beitia Why would I have a beer with That sounds like the worst imaginable way to waste OTOH if I had to be around I would probably want to We can all agree that Revelation is the source of Sacred Doctrine and whence we derive its Revelation is Sacred Doctrine and Sacred The Magisterium infallibly guides us and interprets  I knew he would come back after Isak made me talk about him last Pater I think I knew I would gladly have served on your Also on Samantha I was shocked they picked me at But be of good they even have female valedictorians Isak Benedict has he blocked you If not can you tell him a real spoilsport for ruining the troll I am happy with our But we must do Public Revelation ended with the death of the last As the Church reflects on the sacred her understanding can but the sacred deposit itself what God revealed to us through His does not change or Brilliantly Scott threw out so many My last conversation with him went well I just read parts of Aristotle and jotted random It was a two way monologue and much less And I see where he is coming So we end this right I threw out or disposed of the contradictions coming out of Beitia and Max closer geographically revelation ended about years But new light is being shed on but who is counting Lendman have you read Dornozo on  This new light is part of our and is infallibly expressed in the  I would like to talk about something You There is some debate over of scripture what are the best Medieval   What makes this the But that only has It is based on the original from the Many recent theologians downplay tradition as a channel of claiming everything is in Scott may be influenced by and like a lot of people I have run into confuse that as definitive Church I cannot see so I only garner what he said from arguments against him it embraces the to say something true about that God uses the fantastical in revelation is the written teaching of and the teaching of Christ to the Apostles or Both ended with John the What animals does it I find this how God uses the Thomas suggest something like On my phone or look it Wisely have you discerned It has the the the the leopard and a few What place did the bestiary have in medieval God uses descriptions of fantastical animals in the to describe virtue and something about Was it principally At least in the Latin Psalter there are references to It was part of the art of Preachers used fantastical descriptions of beasts to teach about the mysteries of the It was like catechetical the bestiary was the original devotionals are all over the Chanelling how would these animals be But through all the people love by a The Bible says distinct things about  like the  The use of animals in oration and poetry is Dante used so many Does each have its own symbolic like a then an What does a Unicorn Not all of Just The one I did has every animal named in the Some animals are just so I made stuff But I used the It symbolizes In medieval the unicorn could heal physically and If you touched the horn of the you would be the unicorn is a symbol of the But in the the unicorn would let itself be found only by the purest of Mary is sometimes pictured with the doing a botanical for And thanks for being I am genuinely But God uses beasts in the He uses them for a Even Jesus points to the You can almost see Him holding a Sparrow in His God uses fantastical beasts to The sea fig I find this the most Nature and God uses but He also uses the Why is The writer of Proverbs asks us to look at animals which are Fantastical descriptions of beasts are like fantastical language is His He is trying to tell us He is trying to help us break through this veil of That seems God and nature is And we know God through everything And though were made uniquely in His We share the same creator as the People have always loved The Saints tell us to be kind and gentle with the animals because we share the same People have always loved rhymes I wanted to try to write a bestiary in the traditional as a rhetoric with I used metaphor and because I had learned about Nobody who likes the book cares about that poetics I hope one day to be able to read The Lizard is a good because the Lizard is in the The Bible says something definitive about the But the Lizard has not been in a bestiary this was something that needed to be I wanted to see if people would like I think they I am afraid that I must leave I also wanted to see if you could do a devotional with just enthymeme and with none of this chanelling the Spirit But I leave TNET in tNET leaves you in peace Joel HF Material Not though some have claimed that in Congar tried to claim it was a medieval But I think that in Problem is the passage quoted from to show he held material would necessarily entail formal would end up being sola Namely he says that every truth of faith contained in scripture under a spiritual is stated elsewhere under the literal But then if every doctrine is materially in it is in there Augustine has an example of something known by not namely that a heretic or pagan can validly baptise I wrote elsewhere that there was a form of material sufficiency I agreed but it is far weaker than say in I am wondering if anyone here thinks my position It is not the I hold that every doctrine is related to scripture insofar as one may always understand it as having a seminal foundation in But tradition is more than and is not merely The Canon of scripture is not revealed in nor the number of nor that heretics and pagans can validly a truth that a father many proponents of material sufficiency claim for explicitly states is revealed in tradition and not These doctrines are supportable by they congeal with and with the light of tradition can find further But scripture does not provide needing tradition only to make clear its own That is to relegate tradition to merely be subservient to interpreting tradition taken integrally includes and it forms on deposit of As Trent scripture is not the only deposit of faith or rule of And very in a certain passage that proponents like to quote of on the procession of the Holy Ghost from the the rule of faith that is applied to by which he can claim such is contained in scripture under the literal is itself something given by Even we must have a rule of faith not given by scripture in order to understand Now one could understand material sufficiency to include even the seminal foundations I But I am not sure I like the word sufficient In that something is implicit in scripture when it logically follows from two other revealed or a truth of revelation and a truth of reason this latter could be said to be de fide is I hold that it can be if the major premise is of It is also implicit when it is a truth asserted in an objectively unclear in the Gospel of John there are several places that the Greek is simply ambiguous and can be read in more than one multiple ways are but the rule of faith and charity is what deems an interpretation as acceptable or And this can be given in So when we say Mary was full of and we understand in that the Immaculate we are interpreting the words if we are by themselves need not mean in light of other scripture AND And and this is where I depart from Yves Congar and a truth may be implicit in the sense of being required or presupposed by another even if not through logical The valid matter for that a heretic may baptise someone These are presupposed by the actual practices of these which are divinely But no where does scripture even either of the sacrament of baptism and of Confirmation are but the details about who may do etc are not in but But may be said to be in scripture insofar as is in Does this make Sorry to hijack a the exchange with Scott resurfaced so I just got out of class and have time to read what has transpired since what I but I thought I should clarify things that might lead to confusion in my hastily written answer to question about the beginning of sacred Certainly it is through the Church that we receive the Word of she is its recipient and privileged But our knowledge of God Himself begins when God chooses to speak to to reveal Himself to His This is the absolute beginning of all our knowledge of Him that falls under the virtue of I did not want to deny the necessity of Tradition in handing down and interpreting this just to emphasize that the origin of all we know through Faith is will to speak to I thought this was an important point in responding to the claim that we here at TAC think reason alone is the beginning of sacred What doctrine all so forth aims at doing is helping us to know what was contained in that which God We begin or even end these as formulas or The goal is to help us to listen to God when you our knowledge of God Himself begins when God chooses to speak to this is Second I was also responding to the specific accusation that TAC places the five ways at the beginning of theology for I was not making a veiled but an overt defense of beginning by familiarizing students with with the Word which the Church teaches us to receive It seems good to me that then the students study who gives some introduction to how to go about understanding Scripture as a member of the this is His beginning with Adam and and then in a new way with the and finally speaking to us in Person as it were when His Word becomes man and dwells among These gifts are graces in a broad but the grace that is God dwelling in the soul is distinct from Do you call God speaking to us here and now I are you saying that Revelation is taking place today when as you speaks to not in the sense of a new though we might say that here and now we come into contact with God and receive the Revelation He has already given to the Church through our contact with Each of us comes to know Revelation at different here and But it is the as Christ is the and in that second we might say that God communicates to us through the And this is part of the continuum of sacred I think God communicates Himself to us Himself to in the And Sacred Tradition understood as the living Church handing on what she has or rather inducting each of us into the living communion with does seem to include And so what is the role of the infallible interpretation of Scripture in our understanding our what God has I think like a she possesses the good things we need and it is her role to give them to She receives and by our membership in her we receive what was given to  But not having read what was said I hope entering this debate without a clear idea of what is at stake lead to misinterpreting what I am Time for lunch with God That is a good And like a she never tells us anything that is not She helps us stay on the right in catechism and in natural and sacred theology teachings being first and in faith and still admit tell us anything that is not Like a a bestiary often conveys theological through descriptions which are literally I think this is very watched There are many things out here I wish Very compelling exactly Maybe they do Maybe the unicorn did Compelling is just the The theological lesson is Narwhals The tooth from the narwhal was used to fell false The official animal mascot of Scotland is a unicorn for this A nice story but Like the The unicorn can heal what ails try to find the unicorn by having a pure true and Pick I just spoke to a man who claimed unicorns were once I do not think they But they can teach a factual Why does God write I know people that believe in dragons and He made this Why did He just not write a dragon in I think it is I think the fantastical desciptions in the Bible are to use poetry to help us see divine things through It seems you like to argue for truth and fantastical Maybe evil is a kind of  Evil is nihilism the only thing man can do without the Maybe supernatural truth can be conveyed through fantastical descriptions of Kind of like an imitation of a I think evil is worse than It is like a I understand of a Like a nonexistent Miracles are like when the sun stood still during the battle of When nature is and does not act as it usually Then we might be able to see the supernatural in the So a fantastical beast that breaths fire and wages war in heaven helps us see some supernatural This account in the Book of Revelation seems to be an imitation of a supernatural Imagery But imagery and miracles are not the And no That seems Fantastical imagery may capture the Like when the imagery of the Leviathan or the Unicorn try to capture some supernatural You try to find the but it is this truth that you are really trying to If what I think just just then Scott and Gardner agreed and TNET is I must be missing Fantastical imagery detracts from miracles and confuses them with   Is Sean missing Do you agree that a TAC has correctly described and successfully defended approach to sacred the agreement lasts only so long as the tentative accord in my  wait for it I think Katherine has provided a good start at defining sacred but not necessarily She had to cut out for She did not get around to explaining the relation between dogma and sacred This is This is because if the Dogmas are principles of sacred and TAC does not really get into the then this deserves further  Michael scott likes my I see the fantastical helping us understand something true and See how she is I see he is a This is at George slaying the dragon St George represents England and error is the Catholic I guess you can read into it if you But who canonized I am not a fan of but shod read It still seems to be a common literary no matter how we interpret I the only one a tad several dozen comments by a certain use of the feminine pronoun Dan while at the same time calling him Eaaaaaaasy Yes but literary devices reduce the significance of I did not mean to Roisin I think I may know some of your  That was for our thanks Jeffie I am not sure I can think of any literary devices other than the fantastical that could describe the Consider this one from the Book of another portent appeared in a great red with seven heads and ten and seven diadems upon his His tail swept down a third of the stars of and cast them to the are you I was once in Scotland on St feast All those in the Church of England wear there roses on their lapel and the Catholics fume in comments Yes that is why she is not catholic Your accusations of not being a good catholic were Sometimes I think it would be a lot easier if the Lutherans or Anglicans were the Catholic Is this a fantastical image of a Sometimes I think it easier if the eastern rites joined the It is a blurry image of a blurry This has to be a fantastical image of a there was no My Probably definitely yes if ever been within miles of Can we swap one of ours for a an arranged marriage just to even things out in the Christendom Could we talk about If you add dragons and unicorns to does it make it I like the There is no per in the If you have Noah refusing passage to dinosaurs and unicorns and dragons is it I can one up My husband is a Grimm whose mother was a Guess what esteemed small Catholic college in VA has a president whose wife a It were all the dinosaurs  Aforementioned president of small Catholic college also happens to be my These connections run Would he share accusations of your I bow down before Roisin Your godfather and his wife saved Christendom It is the beginning of great Catholic No he would He is too but he knows what talking you dare tempt me to like you They are great And hold TAC in very high My sincere I did not mean to tempt just this natural likability that I I cannot help Exchanges of pleasantries are clearly a sign of the Apply and spread areas of medieval philosophy with an emphasis on moral philosophy and related Areas of competence should include the field of applied such as in the medical or business The candidate should be well grounded in Western philosophy and the Catholic intellectual Commitment to and demonstrated success in undergraduate teaching and scholarship is A record of publication will be an Support for the Catholic mission is There may be opportunities to teach courses in the Pell Honors The applicant should be willing to advise undergraduate serve on various university and contribute to student learning Employment Opportunities Salve Regina University Open Positions Administrative and Staff Positions An hour without Get back to work apply after I defend my Gots to have that official ABD wrt to material sufficiency of scripture and all that jazz What does sufficiency of actually Even as a Catholic cannot get beyond having to hold fast to Catholic and none of them can be obtained by means of sola the early Christian dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis and still less the new ones of and What kind of meaning does talk about sufficiency of still Does it not threaten to become a dangerous with which we deceive first of and then others perhaps do not in fact deceive In order to go on maintaining that Scripture contains all revealed on one on the to maintain that the dogma is a revealed we would have at least to take refuge in a notion of so broadly conceived that the word would lose any serious opens up the second and really decisive In concerning ourselves with the idea of the of have we grasped the real problem involved in the concept of tradition at or are we lingering over a relatively superficial symptom of an issue that in itself lies much The introductory reflections from which we started should have made it clear that the answer to this question must clearly be The question of the sufficiency of Scripture is only a secondary problem within the framework of the far more fundamental decision that we glimpsed a little while ago in the concepts of abusus and and that thus concerns the relationship between the authority of the Church and the authority of Holy everything else depends on how we understand Cardinal Ignatius message and my reply last The man is so blind like Polyphemos AFTER Odysseus put out his revamping my theory about I think mentally I think Isak Benedict he very clearly is mentally or morally My urging him to get counselling and pointing out his psychological disorders resulted in him blocking Most psychosis is an attempt to escape from an unpleasant As I represented that reality calling him back he pushed me out of his sphere of Another clear sign a Many of his comments on this thread qualify as hate Perhaps it would be not to obsess over And to do something productive Like watching reruns of Bewitched on Hulu I have my guilty pleasures If we wanted to be Joshua we be on The man defies Every conversation he enters is promptly I have tried and make TNET productive for Throwing seriously theological and philosophical questions out the debate over Haikus all bad though I stayed on the sidelines Joshua you state a little more clearly what the fundamental alluded to above Likewise I have enjoyed many a conversation whether involved or I also feel I am getting to know older wiser graduates from my college a little humbling and and I appreciate His Excellency Scott Schitt coming in here and being such an to use colorful I think any person can judge who might be mentally ill or The conversation eddied around the the It seems to me the include more than five and may include proslogion or parts of The most interesting in my estimation is his imagining that God is bigger than anything he can and then the conclusion that God in reality is bigger than God in his but these are conslusions of natural and some are also principles of sacred but these are not all of those they are not those supernatural principles of sacred theology which may be known with certitude by faith alone the the Immaculate Conception assented and which seem to play a special role as the principles of sacred they are promulgated as They are an illumination of that same Revelation that ended about years And if TAC does not posit the context of the preambles is and we can get into rationalistic Speaking of our haiku I think out of deference to Michael status as lead all TNET haikus should end with Eternal return TNET demands attention autumnal jollies What Sean Sean as The Peregrine should really be kicked right in the autumnal jollies Am I doing that you have now ruined that phrase for Are you But you may be able to answer Is there any rhyme or reason to pronouncing the Or is it completely up to the poet to use whichever fits his formed formèd No John he randomly are the hides giving a Was my question about the hate I think he is referring to a broader treatment of revelation and Ratzinger make further it will therefore be necessary to deepen our not being preoccupied with such superficial implications as the sufficiency or insufficiency of but presenting as a whole the overall problem of the mode of presence of the revealed word among the Then we can see that we have to reach beyond the positive sources of Scripture and to their inner the the living word of from which Scripture and tradition both spring and without which neither can be grasped in the importance they have for The question of and remains insoluble so long as it is not expanded to a question of and and thereby inserted into the larger context in which it In what I should like to unfold the concept of tradition in a positive on the basis of its inner in thesis without going into the details of possible I do this in the hope that some part of an answer to the question may be found in it and that the whole may thus prove to be a part of a the necessity of which is being recognized with increasing clarity on both He goes on to distinguish scripture from He seems to want to center the question in intergral tradition The relevant sections are available on google I think facebook may have forced Isak to take down some photos because they violated their rules of Live and No hard To it depends on comtemporary usage some poetic Compare painted and does he define or access the early Christian dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis what are these dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis consensus of which the Cardinal I have never heard of such Not He does make the claim that you can have Scripture without when a man without faith intellectually understands it is not in that Revelation requires an inner act of a locus in a living As a reality based on it has an impulse to As a reality that happens in a man of faith it extends beyond the fact of He argues regardless of whether Scripture is the sole material sola scriptura can never be admitted as a principle in Christianity because of incongruence between Scripture and is not but in any only a part of this greater I still am not clear what he means by inner but it has something to do with the greater reality of and since Scripture is only part of it seems to me that Tradition fits in there what is incongruence between Scripture and Does he mean something more than that they Samantha a using European quotation marks Or more being a hip Joel Hurt You take that Oh Samantha thought I was comparing her to lose then to a hip then to the noble Catholic Proverbs then denying it Though to be those universal in German quotes He means how one can have scripture without it being revelation he lacks He says revelation when inner reality has itself become effective after the manner of  what about the quinquesaecularis The consensus of the first Chaledonian Christianity And he think that derives from Maybe add some question marks to make that more   Ratzinger on his experiences his professors who thought the assumption in tradition it first comes up in the fifth argument the assumption is not in the apostolic is compelling if you understand strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and This was the position that our teachers But if you conceive of as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp Jn then subsequent Jn for can come to recognize what it had not caught sight of previously and yet was already handed down in the original This view is problematic to my that I am qualified to judge it to reject or accept But I would rather hold with Newman that is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an if would have been fully able to answer and would have sound like in any plain sense of the word I am aware I Which Sounds like by he means some kind of process of guidance by the Holy But then I see how that relates to Ratzinger my problem with tradition in some alive in so far as it must always be handed And if one is and even if one tradition must be guided by the Holy But definition seems like it would be easily severed from the whole It how the new relates to the If being is something contained in the literal then maybe I can see his The quotes around and in the Ratzinger text seem to make your Joel I guess I would be interested in an I see how the Assumption could not have been grasped it be pretty easy to I surely there would have been early eyewitnesses to the It a doctrine like the Trinity that requires careful working especially by negation of false assertions about what Scripture could mean Where did Kenz There is some evidence loads of spurious in the How could any tradition be simply handing down fixed not sure that is even People think on And they our ideas about slavery or With the you have something that was handed down but not seen as significant theologically right according to the Catholic point of so I think his lines here make Oatmeal and wine do not go well together autumnal jollies not saying it is the handing down of fixed just saying that I have difficulty with with the caveat that not really qualified to form any real judgment on the So part of it is indeed the handing down of the but part of it is the continual search for Matthew if the claim is that it was actually part of but not considered then That seem to be what Ratzinger is though Ratzinger this decontextualized seems to be taking for granted that it literally as a teaching long after the fact under inspiration of the Holy Spirit is different from realizing implications in some long accepted known Sorry for the interruption of the legitimately interesting still enjoying TNET Well in all I am not going to pretend to be an expert on Ratzinger I just remembered him having an issue with and I as far as that he stated it well In all this is one of the messier areas in understanding He and Rahner some pieces here early And it seems that he has developed his views in a more deeply Catholic without really losing the context of his earlier He does define Tradition as part of revelation that goes above and beyond scripture and cannot be comprehended within a code of What that I As far as the quinquesaecularis I would have to go back and reread earlier on in the book and see what exactly he has in I am a supported of tNET Sean And you can take any number of doctrines and see that Protestant or I see how one could be Christian and not espouse something like what Ratzinger is What previously was not grasped what was not seen before but is Even the scholar goes to the treasure house and brings forth that which is needed at the as the good book This is the This is the strength of John Henry Cardinal quote that I quoted is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an if would have been fully able to answer and would have Matthew I do not hold anything theological that I see either explicitly in Scripture or following from principles in Scripture quote is the one that seems The apostles disagreed about all manner of and asking them the what kind of answer do you think formatting is bad for TNET haikus autumnal jollies Matthew Where does Newman say That wrt to the I though was one he what is the source of that Newman Is it You actually think the apostles would be able to give you all the stuff you need containing within them clearly what centuries of the greatest minds in Christendom fought over and hashed I think Matthew Peterson has a solid point about the apostles and the Trinity I want to admit but been stealing from Pater It gets linked to too often around here sure if you walked the apostles through get it eventually I took it from a quote in one of the comments made by a rather dyspeptic Scottish Theology The unfolding of tradition is not unlike the kinds of books that I do believe yousen a plural of didst all read at you may find in them continually greater depth than first Just as a teacher might hand you a book with a certain set of conceptions about its but you might find something more than he so too the Church may in its current teachers find things in what was first handed down that the Fathers themselves did not Matthew think they would have the scholastic But would they be able to tell you about the Samantha in scripture you see this in the way Christ treats the OT And the way in which very serious theological matters develop from the very start throughout Acts and It is scandalous to think Brian that is the understanding of Tradition I was sold on I see how it works in the case of things like the Assumption and Immaculate Conception and such And Matthew the question would need to be asked after ok with some understanding of the development of seeing what follows from what has been given And this view entail the Apostle knowing the answer explicitly before the question was like I probably have to walk them through Well they may have had an understanding that God was one and three expressing that to require etc to be worked and I am not sure that had And then the implications of that each Person IS the Divine I am not sure they would have all Except they would in a virtual in the sense that in their part of which was written down as the entirety of the deposit of faith was But I think that it articulated in their own heads with the precision of later centuries And that is just ONE While I give a very thoroughgoing not being terribly familiar with the I would say that the Immaculate for seems to follow from the address of Mary as being of and likely with some less clarity from other inasmuch as grace is something the understanding of which likewise develops over the Samantha In those if any sense is to be made of it is that specific circumstances and developments bring about an examination or reexamination of parts of the What necessarily noticed or grasped in its Apostles did not merely know the Apostles what knowledge could be more unless the meaning of each separate word of it was known in They must know all and more than all about the word of which the Church has enunciated since their And so of every portion of an What then is meant by the is it a list of articles that can be it is a large all parts of which are connected in a certain sense correlative so that he who really knows one may be said to know as ex pede Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed a fullness which they could as little realize to as the human as can have all its thoughts present before it at They are elicited according to the A man of genius cannot go about with his genius in his in an mind great part of his knowledge is from the nature of the case latent or and taking two St Paul St according to their respective they either may teach the same thing in or again what is explicit in St Paul might be latent in St John and what is explicit in St John may be latent in St But how could such a partly explicit partly and varying day by day as to what was the one and what the be transmitted to the Church after I believe the Creed the I say Creed as more since it consists of was delivered to the Church with the gift of knowing its true and full A Divine philosophy is committed to her not a number of formulas such as a modern pedantic theologian may make theology to consist but a system of sui generis in such sense that a mind that was possessed of that the could definitely unequivocally say whether this part of as traditionally meant this or and whether this or that was agreeable or inconsistent with it in whole or in I wish to hold that there is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an if would have been fully able to answer and would have as the Church has the one answering by the other from its gift of and that the Church never will be able to or has been able to what the Apostle could not whether the earth is stationary or or whether a republic is or is not better than a The differences between them being that an Apostle could answer questions at but the Church answers them in times often delaying and according as she is guided by her Divine and secondly and on the other that the Church does in fact make answers which the Apostles did not and in one sense did not though they would have known made present to their and made those had the questions been Newman to in Theological the quote Joel was talking The very end makes me think that saying that the Apostle would have been divinely inspired to answer any question on the articles of when Matthew I must not sure what you are talking In the context of the if we are assuming that it was from the prior to the century or how is this dogma latent anywhere or merely What does it mean to Ratzinger is big on seeing tradition here as I think insofar as there may be constitutive tradition while there are seminal basis in some doctrines are given in unwritten Tradition in a way not demanded with logical necessity from scripture as well as being clarifying and confirming what is in then we do have things constantly being affirmed and handed and witnessed to by the liturgy and the sensus But in its it gets debated articulated So that tradition is both and and not as adding to it some truth not already not as continuous revelation is what some foolhardy people have accused Ratzinger of but as the same revelation being expressed more and more explicitly through the actual life of The incongruity Ratzinger mentions between scripture and revelation it makes sense what he Regardless of the material sufficiency he sort of doubted earlier in the there is a role of tradition as a living Revelation is only formally revelation when it is taken in the act of Only then is it received as from the first We adhere to this infallibly in but in our life of faith we understand more and more the depths of what He has handed That is is Tradition as including and is lived Tradition as part of the as including constitutive which clarifies and deepens our knowledge of and is added to through the shared living of the by its greater articulation not by new Does that all make ense Joshua would it need to be articulated in their heads with all the precision of later The doctrine of the assumption is particularly a strange one to have this view The assumption require a great deal of philosophical John a late but a father and thus a witness to the unwritten apostolic affirms the tradition as coming from the apostles Sounds like Newman is saying that the Apostles knew I all of Revelation but that it all may not have been present to their This presence to consciousness would have occurred when asked about a particular article of Or something along those half stole that reading from a I I do think the Assumption shows that constitutive Tradition is more than just what is already in and I thought that was more or less point in that But after dissing on the material sufficiency guys he goes onto his own project of making the question less that is where the living life of things come To remember it because as you seem to it was it is conformable and complementary to what has been said and grows out of thought about Mary has developed over the Apostle Paul had been whether or not our Lady had the grace of the Spirit anticipating all sin including imputed I think he would have answered in the If he never was asked the I should say he had in his mind the decision in in confusio or Newman to that sounds like a new public revelation to Matthew going to say that if one asked the Apostles the right if Mary had been assumed or at least if not would have been able to answer the question in the Matthew thought about every doctrine has developed over The danger is making development into new Well certainly the ones that lived to see her passing from this life would have answered the strange thing about this view as applied to the as Joel HF and I are saying So now I I need to get TNET rolling is to quote difficult passages from From The Catholic quoting John Bishop of at the Council of Chalcedon made known to the Emperor Marcian and who wished to possess the body of the Mother of that Mary died in the presence of all the but that her when upon the request of was found wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to very I had never heard as I said something like what Ratzinger is saying must be it being a living is that the first reference to the Assumption that we The fifth century one Ratzinger referred to I get If it it happened and was part of tradition but sorta never became a big thing even though it is obviously mentioned more than once a few centuries on in Then it gets remembered and picked up and tied into all kinds of latent the Remembered from From what Perhaps the articulation with regard to the Assumption is not that it happened black and but its relationship to the rest of what the Apostles has handed Ratzinger mentioned two I was focusing on the The first was revelation has as its object both as beginning and Maybe the articulation is understanding it in a Christocentric understanding its which required other doctrines to be articulated I think the mentioned more than once a few centuries on in part of Matthew statement is disputed Ciao Samantha assume because he would have been writing in the but the Council was in the fifth so if the century report of the century witness is taken to be you might think you had century witness it is mentioned a few there is what This is a fairly normal apologetic of while it is true that the early Christian writers do not explicitly mention the Assumption of there is an ancient and curious silence about her bodily remains that cries out for an as we can be Karl Keating of Catholic Answers know that after the crucifixion Mary was cared for by the apostle John Early Christian writings say John went to live at Ephesus and that Mary accompanied There is some dispute about where she ended her perhaps perhaps back at Neither of these cities nor any other claimed her although there are claims about possessing her Why did no city claim the bones of Apparently because there were no bones to and people knew in the early Christian relics of saints were jealously guarded and highly The bones of those martyred in the for were quickly gathered up and there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave up their lives for the Faith the bones of Peter and Paul were widely known to be preserved in and the sepulcher of David and the tomb of John the Baptist are both mentioned in Yet here was certainly the most privileged of all the saints but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated mention of the Assumption of Mary begins to appear in highly embellished legendary accounts in the We have a slightly more sober account of the event given by John Damascene in a copy of a letter he preserved from a century Patriarch of Jerusalem named Juvenalius to the Byzantine Empress The Empress had apparently asked for relics of the most Holy Virgin Patriarch Juvenalius replied in accordance with ancient the body of the Mother of God had been taken to heaven upon her and he expressed surprise that the Empress was unaware of this fact that it must have been more or less common knowledge in the Church at the Juvenalius joined to this letter an account of how the apostles had been assembled in miraculous fashion for the burial of the Mother of and how after the arrival of the apostle her tomb had been and her body was not and how it had been revealed to the apostles that she had been taken to body and in the belief in the Assumption was defended by Gregory of and no saint or father of the Church thereafter disputed the these bits of evidence all by themselves early and deafening silence about the bones of and widespread belief in the Assumption manifest among the early Christians of the and without any dispute of the doctrine among the saints and the does not prove that the doctrine is As the wikipedia article even a prot got on the bandwagon at one Samantha per the Catholic Encyclopedia there are nonspurious references by the fifth and it is even established as a feast in certain places by that Something like what Ratzinger says seems I am hesitant about certain Regarding the and manner of Our nothing certain is The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu Catholic has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Epiphanius acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Two cities claim to be the place of her Jerusalem and Common consent favours where her tomb is but some argue in favour of The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu bearing the name of which belongs however to the fourth or fifth It is also found in the book De Transitu falsely ascribed to Melito of and in a spurious letter attributed to Denis the If we consult genuine writings in the it is mentioned in the sermons of Andrew of John Modestus of Jerusalem and In the Gregory of Tours gloria mentions it The sermons of Jerome and Augustine for this are John of Damascus thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Bishop of at the Council of Chalcedon made known to the Emperor Marcian and who wished to possess the body of the Mother of that Mary died in the presence of all the but that her when upon the request of was found wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to the belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is universal in the East and in the according to Benedict XIV Festis it is a probable which to deny were impious and CATHOLIC Assumption of Mary The principal feast of the Blessed Virgin CHURCH Assumption of Mary Featuring the Church Catholic Summa Theologica and The Eastern dormition of Mary was celebrated way back over a thousand years The Assumption and the Innaculate Conception seem to go The encyclical is from the universal agreement of the ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin bodily Assumption into which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the as the Vatican Council those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in and which are proposed by the either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching as divinely revealed truths which must be Apostolic Constitution defining the Dogma of the Assumption Munificentissimus Deus The most bountiful who is the plan of whose providence rests upon wisdom and in the secret purpose of his own the sorrows of peoples and of individual men by means of joys that he interposes in their lives from time to in such a way under Basic I thought the doctrine of assumption body and soul into heaven meant Mary Is this not still working my way through Matthew text Samantha the east typically celebrates the of which is I as a painless asleep in the The west usually depict there being a but the papal bull leaves the question The Damascene account of account says the apostles were at though there are conflicting traditions on the gotcha read the real deal above the doctrine does not mean she die Pope cites Damascene reading That question has basically been left I it has been left Just says the moment having completed the course of her earthly was assumed right Jedi Lucas ripped off the Assumption I read I see Pius point about the connection between IC and I if you make the one fittingness you might as well follow it no corruption from conception to got aside from the curious lack of any real historic or even traditional attestation in the period closest to the time of the supposed going from speculated first principles and applying gets you there pretty quick Maybe next have a pronouncement about the fittingness of Mary getting thinking non that was Maybe Scott is right about do you know how early relic stuff got probably assumed pun to be incorruptible in hence no wrinkles because Relic stuff a huge deal until the Germanic its there in late antiquity of but not like it would be And what relics for late antiquity did was somewhat different than they did for the middle Peter Brown is still good for this topic This is pure but if relic stuff get seriously going until belief in the Assumption was already pretty you could hardly take the lack of relics as evidence of any earlier belief in the But I know the history on relics well enough to make an assertion about  And in a way relics are there from the except that they really function like they would In the earlier the mojo they have is entirely as significant of imminent not as efficacious workers of wonder they worshipped or coveted or collected in late antiquity they way they were in the German not at all really The Scriptural arguments in Munificentissimus Deus are seriously lending credence to the Catholic understanding of Liguori points out the fittingness of death who died as Christ as she resembled Him in life and to give example for the precious death of the Although relics may not have been parted out to the same degree as they were venerated no I Jehoshaphat your source seems weak to read plenty of Church Fathers talk about the honor due to It was pretty And they if worship means but they were Gregory of Nyssa to take but one example at speaks of even the mere touching of a martyrs tomb is a blessing and It probably has to do with Mass being celebrated in but that is And a number of Church Fathers feel the need to distinguish the veneration and bowing toward relics from the worship paid to hardly need to do this if the relics considered And of course so many of the Fathers explicitly say that the relics are Not to the desire to have pieces of the true Joel just look at how they the ancients venerated primarily in what they meant by was the resting and as I the emphasis was very heavily on the resting dead as sites of this was especially so in the very early when the dead were martyred and had thus proved their union with the resurrected Christ by overcoming The medieval cultus is almost completely easy to read Nyssa as sounding in the same ballpark as the cult of baby but look a little This some novel thesis of these are commonplaces of academic And Beitia is the early reverence was bound up with the fact that Christians were celebrating the Supper in catacombs and sometimes on the tombs of the holy dead they had very often known in both They selling John the Baptists head in the early Church denying the cultus shifted the early church thought the second coming was much much closer than it saying that one deny that the later emphasis of was already there and quite the later emphasis it was This is why there was black market in relics Poorly What I mean The early church including Paul had an emphasis on the coming and the general resurrection that was lost later as it became plain that for God very soon for This covers a The Cult of the Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity Haskell and this an RC Mutations of Western Christianity This book is a profound study in a small scope of some of the cultural and intellectual crises which determined If a husband says to his wife that he that but not my should his wife assume he likes the but prefers certain others immediately change into a different dress or burn the dress in a fit of considering all three options at the Augustine talks about wonderworking relics for heavens Acts talks about wonderworking Not human of not saying that wasnt going just not to anything like the same degree in the City of and it is very attenuated like flowers that were taken from the soil near reliquaries in the Holy Weiss ignore him is usually the best forget it There is no option you I will take your comments as votes for option Option is clearly not attentive to the esoteric doctrine of your And by your husband I mean hypothetical husband in the hypothetical So Joel HF supports option My hypothetical husband is sighing where were we on happy to admit there was a change of emphasis even today the main thing seem to be but the early church was full of them and not just of the imminent resurrection but also of veneration and sanctification But then I read the modern it seems clear that as time veneration became wonderworking but it came from I guess I find the relics of Mary from the early a bit since even if there were some in they would have fallen out of favor as pious belief in the Assumption Relics are a pretty universal phenomena from the early early church through the middle as far as I can there are and there are were early relics usually bits of the dead that were passed or more true cross How about some Eco In Baudalino there are people in Constantinople trying to sell one of the heads of John the Baptist As far as I know It was thought necessary in the Theodosian code to forbid their pretty confident that relics were treated differently under persecution than under officially recognized Roman religion too I only got about through I said I feel better ah explains a lot I rebelled against my father and have never read more than a page or so of now you see why all your attempts to make Eco happen on tNET have failed It is all becoming clear I suppose his story lines more complicated than finding a suitable oh hush you You know who has super complicated story Dan almost I actually read Dan well researched books about another time and place are much easier to write than stories about the rotten aristocracy you see around you every I love historical Give me some Hilary Mantel over Eco any Austen too Eco Italian Dan Autumnal jollies I think I caught cold over My head feels like it is going to Wolf Bring Out the but I suppose the difference is ACTUALLY read On that good night Hilary Mantel has won the Booker prize Eco has won zero Booker I feel like Beitia trying to make Eco No Mantel fans on Eco write in so he win a Booker There is something to what Jehoshaphat Escalante is The way early Christians treated the and and the like must all be seen in light of the belief of an imminent But also an emphasis on the Such things were unclean in the ancient both in Mosaic law and Roman It was the belief that Christ overcame death that changed everything But this is not really disconnected from the cultus of the saints While it would be foolish to try and make their praxis and our identical it seems to me as a relic loving modern Catholic that I would find them it is also true that they view the martyrs as being united with the resurrected I cannot remember the term sometimes used in but there was ascribed to them a certain office of As far as the thing well that can be seen in many the way such was view and emphasized in the middle ages was different than the early even when it did not veer into But I if one reflected deeply on its significance in either one would come up with all that radically different of an answer as to why relics had such a He also has zero Fair though how about any I feel about Nabokov as Richard Delahide Ferrier felt about a waste of Yet not totally a  being adios Feil Samantha Cohoe you need to know your novels are not going to go over well with this Feil I read but why do I always feel like people who like him are people who otherwise into Joel father being a prime me How can you not love The writing of Name of the Rose is an dream the story Eco had been doing some research on the period in and he had about floppy discs So he wove them together with a minimal story line and sent it to his And his publisher sounds but the story line is too So then he added a bit and the publisher So he added checking in with his publisher periodically and after about the the publisher okay e I own more Eco than is healthy for a all the novels and and several works of I was playing and have lost the discussion of the But just a not sure if this was expressed It seems plausible that John witnessed the It also seems reasonable why he did not write about Though his vision of a woman clothed with the sun is in Revelation great sign appeared in a woman clothed with the with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her This coronation would logically follow after Mary being assumed into Following there is great war in and great dragon was hurled ancient serpent called the or who leads the whole world He was hurled to the and his angels with The Dragon wages war on But angels rally to If courage can withstand your present Then blessed days await for you And then we have this outside of time kind of where the hurled from takes the form of the Serpent in the Garden of The in the tempted The gravity of death to O how grave the how great the That took the blood of Christ to rescue So we have the first experiencing Now even Mary was saved by the blood of But Her Immaculate Conception and Glorious Assumption were also wrought through His And so you have Mary through Redemptive shows true relationship with You have a human person preserved from the effects of Original Sin body and soul in her and you have a human person who is assumed body and soul into the new seems to in ideal relationship with without She recovers what Eve She seems to be the exemplar of His book on beauty in the Middle Ages was a real talisman for me when I was in my early years at It shape my thesis on beauty and but it certainly inspired This  only Tuesday I but Tom Waits The Heart Of Saturday Night Samantha your question about dresses is why women havethe reputation of being your husband just thought you might like to know his on the The Sean Connery film adaptation of The Name of the Rose is to say the but men think women are complicated and so give veiled answers to avoid giving Sweet Vermouth and I have a question for How much even could a white girl if a white girl just I am getting that there is some esotericism in that question I am not privy  In my implying any possibility that another article of clothing might be better than the one your chose is sufficient cause to wage doubly if the article of clothing happens to be on someone triply so if she had disliked whether implicitly or I feel so out of touch  Just listened to The tone out of that then the BB King Calls This One Of His Best Performances This entire film is a Get it at Joshua practically Paul mentions I would have you to be without He that is without a is solicitous for the things that belong to the how he may please he that is with a is solicitous for the things of the how he may please his and he is A significant portion of his is knowing what to say about what she decides to The rest is knowing what she wants him to wear before she mentions you change your profile picture too What in the world makes statements about possibility gave you seven And now you want to give them Certitude that the possibility is to be the in the was intended not as expressing The follow on question is whether actions may be taken to further the I think it is a great I just got out of a class that touched on the I wanted to say that matter and ultimately prime matter does The other side was basically arguing that the efficient it I think there has to be some middle ground between the two especially given creation ex In my experience in future strategy development and risk the statements are always treated as Many get It seems that within the realm of the prime matter is Potency cannot be reduced to any unless some agent has that either or analogically a higher but the agent explains not I distinguished the possibility of a being from the possibility of What does De Koninck say on But statements about the future are often in reference to have to I argued that the former to can and must be understood in abstraction from efficient since a presupposition of change while the latter requires consideration of efficient I know Uncle Glen in an appendix to the that prime matter is the root of I think I get the distinction you are making I suppose this is The Nature of Possibility Google Docs writing of Name of the Rose is an dream professor thought that We let him have his I like the distinction of fortune being ignorance of In your in the did you intend for physical restrictions such as bird may give birth to a but does not seem to fit into the Because prime matter is not a Not I grant that you have to appeal to agents for things like is possible that there be more since that is a question of whether a certain change can take Where I think necessary is statements like are But insofar as it is an is in the world as a principle of contingency in material Would dodoes be possible if there were no agency that could reduce primate matter to such a I is all you are saying is that dodoes are a possible form of material I give there were no agency that could reduce primate matter to such a It seems that such an agency might be but a remote Possibility as such depends upon an absolute which by virtue of being absolute the efficient Specific potentialities depend upon limited The potentiality of the material depends upon three the present actual the possible form and the intrinsic potency of the thing to receive that change the lack of absolute actuality per se in the present actual A tree is potentially a in because it is not a but being a it can receive the form of a Extrapolating from the potentiality of a thing a created finite to be at is dependent upon that which is absolute The creation of primary matter is simultaneous with the creation of something having designated what the makes statements about possibility true depends on the kind of possibility we are If something having prime as a principle the having been established by an ultimate efficient If something the efficient Dodoes are possible because the is not contradictory for existence in Makes sense to at I wonder if prime matter can be thought of as a limit on divine the Name of the Rose the Being of the Dodo autumnal jollies How would it be a According to hypothetical necessity if it is supposed that God is going to change something in the world into another the things it can be changed into are circumscribed by the potency of prime for God cannot change a dog into an Edward Do you think with the preceding if you say Prime Matter is and you put anything here other than potency under your are not talking about Prime but potency is a limit upon Prime as the ultimate is the most fundamental limit upon material not sure how that one because I know how we would grasp the identity between the dog and the It seems to be sort of like if God ceased to operate The thing about prime is that it is in no way accept that it is I mean Daniel but the passive potency limits the form that receives it as well as the agency that acts on My argument before was that since angelic forms are not in the potency of prime God cannot act upon a dog in such a way that it turns into an he change the dog into a dodo if he felt like I guess I would say there is no material creature possible that God cannot in agreement my question is about not Daniel Lendman The limitation which prime matter imposes upon the agency acting upon it is proportionate to the power of the agent the more powerful the the less limitation Thus it impose any limit upon an infinite Given what changes can God bring about without a special in the case you are talking the limitation is not on but is on the part of Angelic Daniel what saying is that on the part of the material cause of If A changes into matter must be potential to B As I understand Thomas to answer God can bring about any changes which do not imply a contradiction II I am thinking along Brian is that about change or I think Aquinas thought prime matter was in potency to the forms of the heavenly bodies and thus God could not change a dog into  he could annihilate Fido and then immediately create but that be a Perhaps he could even Fido into but But that is not a change Ad remotionem cuiuslibet principii essentialis sequitur remotio ipsius Si igitur Deus non potest facere rem simul esse et non nec etiam potest facere quod rei desit aliquod suorum principiorum essentialium ipsa sicut quod homo non habeat So God could not change a thing to have an essence other than that which is its essence and have it remain the same The possible termini of change are limited by the potency of prime it may not be much of a but it still Or they are limited by more proximately they are limited by the designated matter that is intrinsic to their I know why you see that as the Brian just to be not talking about the fairy tale version of change in which the prince changes into a frog and remains the same in not quite sure what change talking about Perhaps you could Physics Substantial generation and saying that if God generates some being from the matter underlying that matter limits the possible forms that the generated being can Insofar as a thing is it is limited in that it must necessary have a potency to the reception of other material that would be a limitation imposed by prime there of an infinite variety of different forms which could be inasmuch as potency can be infinitely Daniel not denying something like the Divine Ideas are also the grounds of such just arguing that they are a more remote cause than prime matter which in a more remote cause than proximate If the only limitation you are speaking of is the limitation Brian then I am in That is why I said that prime matter is potency under material I just call that a Divine simply the nature of I think the phrase is if it is a limitation on the divine but not such absolutely but only such by the necessity imposed by a final Such necessity is not a limitation upon the a limitation of the things power in any way diminished by prime I never said it was a limitation on the But in agreement with your last Tangential do you think Aquinas ultimately held that there was a different kind of prime matter for heavenly I know this is a disputed question of but it seems to me his latter and an understanding of prime matter precisely as excludes such an What Brian said sounds less crazy and more true than what you Joshua not really I think prime matter is the I remember where I read by I think Aquinas holds that the forms of the heavenly bodies wholly exhaust the potency of That is the It seems unless you want to say that a material form can perfectly satisfy the appetite of matter the heavenly bodies are not subject to that seems unfitting because that appetite is infinite and thus it would seem that only an infinite act could do that why God is our final only an infinite being can exhaust an infinite But potency is being said Daniel remember where I read by I think Aquinas holds that the forms of the heavenly bodies wholly exhaust the potency of The question is which matter is referred to Daniel I see why the principle hold true for either sense of the Is the potency there of prime Seems we might be jumping categories the beatific vision is not our end as something demanded by our I what I am is that the forms of the heavenly bodies are of a different order than material generable and corruptible they are able to exhaust the appetite for My point is that it is sufficient to attribute the incorruptibility to the My point is that infinite potency can only be satisfied by an infinite in any  Super not sure exactly how it comes but looks relevant My point is that the infinite appetite for form on the part of prime matter is for corruptible there is nothing impossible about that appetite being satisfied by a higher order of Because the appetite for form is an appetite for If it could be satisfied by a higher how could there be many of such the heavenly bodies are able to provide that perfection through their Because there is still one and positio est quod corpora caelestia et elementa non communicant in et haec est positio et Rabbi et videtur magis dictis Aristotelis et ideo istam quantum ad praesens Daniel but we only no community of matter through change on the the element of the heavenly bodies cannot change into the four elements of the terrestrial  if the forms of the heavenly bodies are more perfect than those of earthly they should be able to generate a similar within earthly bodies  Aquinas seems to have held three views in his Special form and special just form This article is great Shared with Dropbox The important part starts on page later in his when he wrote his commentary on De caelo and De substantiis separatis Thomas explains the incorruptibility of the heavenly bodies with an emphasis that is considerably different from that which is found in the Summa In these later he lays stress on the fact that it is the form of the heavenly bodies that makes them There is a change of emphasis from matter to and this change is I of a change in I have to actually read but not convinced by that argument At the very it is a moot Mars is not an incorruptible so the attendant difficulties of saying that are the only question would could an incorruptible body on natural principles Seems to me the inability of there two be different types of prime matter would be know first and more certainly The difference between matter and matter could be analyzed just as the difference between prime matter and God is  I am with stupid They just are they differ tertium dicendum quod simplicia non differunt aliquibus aliis hoc enim compositorum Homo enim et equus differunt rationali et irrationali quae quidem differentiae non differunt amplius ab invicem aliis si fiat vis in non proprie dicuntur sed diversa secundum philosophum X diversum absolute sed omne differens aliquo si fiat vis in materia prima et Deus non sed sunt diversa Unde non sequitur quod sint ad If the potency to terrestrial forms is not the potency to celestial that is not so in virtue of any distinguishing they just are That makes no sense in this context I conclude you are either trolling or drunk The evidence for unity of matter is wholly from  not drunk and perfectly The evidence we have for unity of matter is that the elements can change into each they must have a common Then I have no idea how two things without any determination can be diverse By their order to If prime matter is only potential to some and to then neither is pure They have a determination already You are starting to sound Suarezian And I would rather be drunk than Suarezian It is not clear how certain one can be about these sort of it seems unfitting and unnecessary to posit kinds of prime since the differences can more reasonably be attributed to kinds of Prime matter exactly the most intelligible thing out there In saying that created the text by the indefinite character of the all for was not Adam here named together with the as the history tells us in what Yet the name given to the man created is not the but the general thus we are led by the employment of the general name of our nature to some such view as that in the Divine foreknowledge and power all humanity is included in the first for it is fitting for God not to regard any of the things made by Him as but that each existing thing should have some limit and measure prescribed by the wisdom of its Now just as any particular man is limited by his bodily and the peculiar size which is conjoined with the superficies of his body is the measure of his separate so I think that the entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of by His power and as it were in one and that this what the text teaches us which created in the image of God created He For the image is not in part of our nor is the grace in any one of the things found in that but this power extends equally to all the and a sign of this is that mind is implanted alike in for all have the power of understanding and and of all else wherby the Divine nature finds its image in that which was made according to the man that was manifested at the first creation of the and he that shall be after the consummation of are they equally bear in themeselves the Divine For this reason the whole race was spoken of as one namely that to power nothing is either past or but even that which we expect is equally with what is at present by the all sustaining Our whole extending from the first to the so to one image of Him Who of Nyssa Lauren wrong with changing my profile picture all the who really cares what Thomas says about celestial they are made of the same as everything One posit separate or incorruptible because even the unity of a or is an accidental Late night tNET and the idle If Jesus had provided advanced theoretical physics to his followers as divine or at least mentioned that the Earth is not the center of the planetary have been more Catherine Joliat also Mantel has a somewhat harsh take on Thomas would hate is a massive It seems that the first forms were heavens and and earth was one then informed with further day and land and the then male and the beginning God created the heavens and the The earth was without form and and darkness was upon the face of the and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the I think the the form of the celestial beings may have preceeded and the intellectual forms of But I am wondering if the first form of the Universe informed Prime Introduction to the Bestiary A Bestiary is a literary collection of each one of which conveys a moral lesson about The first known Bestiary was written by an unknown author in the first The goal of this first book of beasts was to shed light on the mysteries of the Christian faith through a poetical description of the As a book within the liberal art of bestiaries flourished during the Middle when preachers used tales of fabulous beasts to move hearts towards While the descriptions of the beasts were often the theological lessons were on the One of the most fascinating traits of the Bestiary is its literary particularly its use of simile and persuasive metaphor to play on the imagination and When combined with the principles of these literary devices support the spiritual act of With its emphasis on the human the aim of the Bestiary is especially in line with the theology of the Eastern In the fourth John Chrysostom taught that it is good to be kind and gentle with and to learn from because we share the same and while a wild beast will rarely harm a a bad person may readily devour there is a great need to seek aid and strive for In his John Chrysostom referred often to the including the Bee which labors long never for itself but always out of care for So let us readily care for and love one another for the greater glory of Countless Saints of the Eastern from Saint John Chrysostom to Saint Seraphim of Sarov of the last have maintained this tradition to inspire the faithful towards The Bestiary is the original and its literary elements have lasted through the ages in the writings of the Far from being limited to mere natural the Bestiary aims at a spirit of as Venerable Luis de Granada is the property of meditation or contemplation to produce the sentiment and affection of the will which is called Saint Francis de in his Introduction to the Devout details numerous animals in order to lead us to According to devotion is spiritual activity and liveliness by means of which Divine Love works in and causes us to work briskly and Just as charity leads us to a general practice of all so devotion leads us to practice them Now define See Translation A bestiary is a kind of Full of diverse have a At mammals winged and Backyard bugs and insects most So the creatures will Themselves as for the Of through their happiness or Truths about the higher things in So if a Bat flies down your Just open up the dooor for And if it flies be Its great respect for you will go Or if you see a Hippo in your be they love to keep their Or if an Ostrich strolls across your Be kind to that very For God and nature is And God is known through everything And though made uniquely in His We share the same Creator as the So come Dear come Rise up in rejoice in All from the noblest to the Reveal the goodness found in every welcome to this blessed A zoo of words where animals run May ever you enjoy each antique Placed near upon the family Edward what do you mean by the elements change into each having sent robots to Mars we know that it is made of the as not celestial incorruptible not convinced that that prime matter is anything more than a logical It does not seem to be the solution as to what makes a potential statement for water could change into via fusion and fssion the chemical elements can be changed into each even more quarks can change into each What then are the For it looks like certain quarks Not the higgs what evidence is there of substantial change in non living Or that the whatever they actually change from one into the Coffee machine broke May not make it through the day autumnal jollies Can we start tagging New people to tNET for Autumnal jollies Fision and fusion are not alchemy changing lead into As for protons and and electrons before what do you mean by change into each We need fresh members of the Tag em in reference to this very debate My heterodox friends may may not last the order cult initiation I think Prime Matter is a a concept for principle matter without The Universe is the first John John any deep Good morning thought as I was getting ready for my never understood the of American Yes we should be patriotic and yes the Constitution is great blah but this Republic rise and fall like any other in the How does it make sense to have supernatural hope for Jeff in beta for one of the protons or neutrons in the nucleus changes into the other kind of nuclear nuclear beta decay is a type of radioactive decay in which a proton is transformed into a or vice inside an atomic This process allows the atom to move closer to the optimal ratio of protons and As a result of this the nucleus emits a detectable beta which is an electron or heavy but they are not different Jeff while there are certain practical limits on as far as I can there are no theoretical limits on which elements could be the products of in if there the elements that could not result from fusion would not exist since all the elements have been created from hydrogen by fusion in I am not convinced that or higgs boson count as They really exist on their do not sure we are clear on what Daniel neither do elements Element means those things which are I dispute that about For water On its own fire and and each of the bodies we have are not but The bodies are indeed similar in nature to but not identical with Thus the body corresponding to fire is not that which corresponds to air is and so on with the rest of But fire is an excess of just as ice is an excess of For freezing and boiling are excesses of heat and cold that ice is a freezing of moist and fire analogously will be a boiling of dry and a by the which explains why nothing either out of ice or out of  As that text seems to the water we see is not the element but a combination of the element whose proper quality is coldness with an element whose proper quality is I am aware of But there is no indication that those elements properly exist What I meant is that elements seem to require a more stable You mean fire and I see they are defined as a material cause and not as something in their own Neutrons and Electrons seem to be more like quarks seem almost like principles of material Element are the first forms after the first Just means the primary immanent formally indivisible into another of which something is With all allowances for bad it seem to me like elements have to be able to exist on their they just have to compose the They are not defined insofar as they exist by indivisible into another is what I am referring It is not clear that this is true of Therefore the table of elements the indivisibility of form implies a certain degree of stable existence to my Perhaps I am inclined to think Protons and Neutrons better Perhaps seems to be a principle of  a material yes About what I said indivisible into another seems to imply a certain stability of What is it is not clear that this is true of I need Have scientists proved with certainty that these things called neutrons and quarks or does it just look like these things Is that Depends on what you mean by I think we never will have absolute certitude about the I do think the particulate is that and why do you think it is Certitude In Most I guess for some there is certainty in and for others there is I just know how we can tell that hit the most fundamental constituents of matter except experimentally we know if some other experiment will show us something more The particulate conception roughly that ultimately all bodies are composed of small Apropos of Has anyone ever encountered the position that the Old Law is in if you have a robust understanding of of then one always need to keep things is a weasel There are probably some who know with certainty that some may know the elements with certainty while others may and there are probably some who may not know with certainty that some may know the elements with certainty while others may I think you can know things like matter and form with All this breaking down into particles stuff just seems to be a totally different kind of and not necessarily a radical departure from the philosophy of matter and I should add in fairness I have no special expertice in this other than trying to be a liberally educated Victorian man of I wrote a great paper on how those things are different for my MA in Graphene will change the world in the next couple Graphene is a sheet of Carbon only an atom it gets to be called That is Discovered by guys I would like to read that or at least a summary of that Is Graphene the stuff in Captain shield or Would you coat stuff with Is it like  That looks like more than an atom That must be The visible atom is And more believable than prime Graphene the free encyclopedia Graphene is pure carbon in the form of a very nearly transparent one atom It is remarkably we need to explain where the matter in this universe came It just come from and it have been here why Graphene looks I like how it is described as I would like to see it in a spray It could make you invisible and if nowhere is the same thing as then it could not have come from there because then nothing would be something at it would at least be the place it came It could not have always been not sure but I am thinking about that It could not have always been because then there would be no explanation for how it got One of the exciting things about the origins of the universe is that and the That the world cannot be eternal is not knowable by one thing I do think I is that everything is happening at the same moment right I think this means there was a beginning where the first somewhere and the first something happened at the same for am highly unlikely to be tragged into another debate about the existence of atoms and Matthew you should Atoms are What happened in the last discussion From elsewhere on polyphonic overtone singing Hefele by Hefele Evan Dunkel Stay I appreciate the and may check back But right I need to go do some like for The bestiary is fantastical but leads to Modern science is fantastical but does not say lead to Modern science is a On my desk this The uncanny valley no one wants to take a swing at my American exceptionalism wth is Why is that on your Flyer for Dolly Imagination Library which our local library Some thoughtful parishioner dropped it Dolly I thought an ugly Naugahyde couch sprouted and can we say of they can really only said to be stars are not one thing except accidentally one Autumnal jollies Why do you hate it is a very long it comes from hating fall and winter most of spring Now a star for Something nice about his bluishness Michael the it clear that it can only be said accidentally of nonliving even if why is this necessarily a After thinks is one other than or a leaf pile or a solar is in the constellation Virgo so what has the substantial rocks and a lot of substantial forms in one place argue that lots of natural things have substantial Atoms molecules most But not sure of saying is not a substantial anymore than There is a but not of If a thing have a substantial it be at but if atoms and molecules both have substantial form is there a form of and a Form of in which the are is an extremely loose term What do you Seems like many have substantial not least of which are My pants have substantial I sure hope they exist Let me if that which is a finite being is not in something possessing a substantial form or a substantial form then it would not be at In other news of the MN hometown weirdo Prince is still cool Plectrum Electrum Eye Girl MADISONDUBÉ Michael your gnosis is Somebody stole my  It certainly seems true that things are not as much one as living But what about undead  take that and stick it in your hylomorphic pipe  TNET seems a sillier place this early in the what do we say about the Old It is like a zombie law when Jews observe it Or it is just and there is a kind of necrophilia going Is that the first time necrophilia has been used on that and stick it in your hylomorphic is definitely my favorite quotation from I will be quoting that in real hopefully no one is it seems like there is a general consensus that Jews who strive to follow the Old Law have a kind of necrophiliac  Daniel I think being quite provocative Maybe try saying something like it hot unless liven it up with the Leaving aside that some is said of but not found what about my example of a or a solar These seem to be finite beings in some loose but themselves primary substance or found in primary so looking for hylomorphism Why not molecules and they are themselves Why a composite be a hylomorphic being said Living things are composed of many and varied you can tell hump day on tNet but you get the parts out without destroying the unity of the whole with atoms and molecules The whole has to be destroyed to get at the why kind of looking down on hylomorphism Not For the Aristotelian account to be it have to be the case that the substantial form hence would have to be destroyed to get at the every electron composed of so is indistinguishable from every other they are kind but for inorganic the unity destroyed in the same itself is a honeycomb carbon an atom thick essentially a It has extraordinary properties of and Researchers at Columbia University estimated that it would take the weight of an elephant applied to a point the size of a pencil tip to puncture a graphene sheet just microns The parts are the same as the Like an elephant on top of a pencil on top of graphene Nd graphene all the way down To quote is discovered as an equally valid primordial mode of We cannot fully understand the being of and especially not the apart from its relativity to That relativity is dependent upon the instances of substantial form out of which they but are reflexively significant in what is constituted out of that a which is essentially a pattern of related and turtles supposed to be prepping a I thought accusing Jews of being necrophiliacs would be But apparently you all are  the old law avails nothing so why would I disagree with Because Christ says he destroy the we still follow the moral precepts of the I think I have this question But there are a lot of distinctions to be I think the best way to think of electrons is as  But we observe the moral precepts of the fulfilled in the The Old Covenant has been replaced Which covenant are you speaking There are several Old covenants  well then I The Mosaic covenant is Which is rather It was fulfilled in and passed away with His I think Lendman is just trying to boost his post Hell Hell   I am shooting for a respectable It also looks worse when a conversation with since got pretty much the same profile I say that we follow the Old Law insofar as it is an expression of the Natural But we are no longer UNDER the Old more comments and we can get this thing to Dream Big Angry never catch The only problem is that Edward Langley run stats in a long You were gone on I posted a He ran them about a week anticipating something of a Though I tend to write longer and more detailed rather than treating this thing like a chat room and a year old girl letting every thought tumble out of her some unnamed   All the single men on TNET should create a new Knights Templar type order and go battle Graphene is The Universe is balancing on a sheet of graphene which has existed I see what you Michael I think that the elements have enough unity to count as modernists are the real enemy and that is first an interior If you have formal it means you have to have a planets have a or some other form is guiding Oh Elements have as long as some angel is guiding Some have held such a In it seems like you and Michael Beitia how do atomic parts They have to have I think formal unity entails having a Everything with a soul has formal What else is there that has formal Some idea of form or substance is lest one wind up in the ditch of Elements have formal And no arguing all sorts of other things have a formal I am inclined to your it is just a lot harder to does an urn or painting have formal I think the case of elements is possibly the clearest of inanimate Note that this argument is prior to whether or not things are Does the Universe have formal Does a planet have formal formal unity imply a and those are the things that are hard to The Universe is a A haiku has formal  Therefore the Universe has formal Is there such a thing as accidental formal like a Gracean Like I elements are probably the easiest to so maybe we should start also admit that nominalism seems true in a limited sense insofar as our minds are inclined to create formal unity where none exists in with a and then take up your questions thx Some statues might have formal the formal unity of an element is there I said it not qua what can you say of an Perhaps we could invent a new poetic form the syllogism The Or the Michael I am I prefer sylloku it was an honest Daniel hylomorphic hailogisms used in syllokucal I thought you made a The composite of logic and scroll up elements have form equational math gnosis Autumnal jollies What makes something to be united is a lack of and certainly not a lack of there are as many kinds of unity as there are ways in which a thing can be Being together in ordination to a final cause is a kind of A statue has a final albeit it therefore has an extrinsic formal qua and a much looser intrinsic formal unity from the qua material composite united through the actualities and potentialities of its constituent But I be prepping a lecture like Lucretius in haiku let here stop you from prepping for your  Are you using in the sense of a or in the ordinary sense that makes me ask about like to keep score of how often accused of logical saying that we are wondering about whether there is such a thing as a natural the or just accidental ala lucretius or the I actually accusing you of a just jokingly pointing out that saying there is intrinsic along with other ways things can be really give an See Translation Unless you take into account that the intrinsic form of many things is naturally ordained to other by their very is opium causes The sleep inducing faculty whereby opium makes one substantial form is whereby a unity can said to be one by I think it is helpful to consider the fact that there are many different ways for things to be But how do we know the hylomorphic account is true how do we know it to be true of And even prior to how do we know that there is such a thing as form or substance Now is the point where I take a and link to a paper I wrote that no one will read because too long and it deals with and Heidegger on Physics Faced with a world where technology aimed at BRIAN KEMPLE we we run the risk of lower voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the B is actually a good thing in my book probably a good thing in anyone Maybe substantial formal and accidental formal If my memory serves me Maritain said that a painting of a person is an accidental formal but my memory is becoming increasingly less and I do not know if Maritain himself said or if it was just words in a If it was just words on a that would be just an accidental formal which are informed by my And my impression of those words is not are simply going to have to score more points than the other team to win the Would an enthyku be a truncated Mathgnostism is a belief system in which all things seem to be grasped by math or in their nonessences but the various formulae function differently with the respect to the phenomena they cannot what is the essence of an an If even little Cricket can sing song of hope Let us be happy Electrons if you mean mathematic Autumnal jollies a period by itself is a helpful solution to formatting issues in punctuation is I dont see the point of using it because it only increases the number of keystrokes I have to make my fingers only have so much life in them until such time as carpal tunnel takes over and I dont plan on wasting it using periods I think man can posit formal unity onto in his as when man views a beautiful This form may help elevate his spirit to contemplate of But if the scientist looks closely at the same he may just see accidental and many of these parts may not be An electron is the flow of which lightening which is mixed in other All things are charged with lightening  but that an essential is All forms are charged with lightening Of how many things can you actually give an essential Of course you ironic A sylloku Forms are charged with man is form and Lightening matter Daniel the observance of the Old Law is not merely dead but maybe it would be more like the undead than the dead It is disturbing how many seem to affirm that the old law is still salvific for the The adult catechism from the USCCB even made that but it was corrected Bizarrely enough Wikipedia attributes the heresy of theology to John Paul even though it notes that the Vatican ordered the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults which did state that the Old Law was for the Jews changed as in Now the passage on Jews mentions Seems to me for all the obfuscation in the and then worse forms of the Pro Judaeis on Holy this error has more or less been laid to the US voted on it and overwhelmingly rejected and change to the Missal brilliantly avoided the same keeping the meaning while dropping the harsh completely language of the old The Old Law could still be valid for the Jews while still not being Explain In the context it certainly read as they were fine where they were I know about the context of the thinking about early Jewish Christian which still kept you think that Jewish Christians ought to keep the Old Covenant as well as the It would be a mortal sin Does this ever happen on think Matthew We have a responsible dog on  The ceremonial precepts of the old law are Th I answer All ceremonies are professions of in which the interior worship of God Now man can make profession of his inward by deeds as well as by and in either if he make a false he sins though our faith in Christ is the same as that of the fathers of since they came before whereas we come after the same faith is expressed in different by us and by For by them was it a virgin shall conceive and bear a where the verbs are in the future whereas we express the same by means of verbs in the past and say that she and In like manner the ceremonies of the Old Law betokened Christ as having yet to be born and to whereas our sacraments signify Him as already born and having just as it would be a mortal sin now for in making a profession of to say that Christ is yet to be which the fathers of old said devoutly and so too it would be a mortal sin now to observe those ceremonies which the fathers of old fulfilled with devotion and Such is the teaching Augustine who is no longer promised that He shall be shall suffer and rise truths of which their sacraments were a kind of but it is declared that He is already has suffered and risen of which our in which Christians are the actual it would be One of the heresies that the early Churched confronted Judaizing would be to say that keeping the Old Covenant is necessary for Paul especially addresses this in Jewish Christians who are trying to make Gentile Christians keep the Old Catholic firmly professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic which are divided into holy sacrifices and because they were instituted to signify something in the although they were adequate for the divine cult of that once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their after the places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not sins It does not deny that from passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal unless they recoil at some time from these Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of not to practise circumcision either before or after since whether or not they place their hope in it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal Council of Florence Just to head off a for medical reasons is different certainly sometimes always depends on your view of prophylactic But it matter whether you think it is necessary for the ceremonies themselves are mere fulfilled in the New To observe the figures would therefore be to act As you can this merely Aquinas or my private the Councils are quite maybe more like Kangaroos get into boxing match on quiet Australian street video Two kangaroos are caught on camera in an The Council of Florence would have been pretty rough on the early It is very cool how those kangaroos can lean back on their tails while they double kick each Australia is so How there is a recognition of a possibility of an interim period As Aquinas observes over the debate on this between Jerome and Augustine On this point there seems to have been a difference of opinion between Jerome and For Jerome distinguished two periods of One was the time previous to during which the legal ceremonies were neither since they were and did expiate in their own nor because it was not sinful to observe But immediately after Passion they began to be not only so as no longer to be either effectual or but also so that whoever observed them was guilty of mortal Hence he maintained that after the Passion the apostles never observed the legal ceremonies in real but only by a kind of pious to they should scandalize the Jews and hinder their This is to be not as though they did not in reality perform those but in the sense that they performed them without the mind to observe the ceremonies of the thus a man might cut away his foreskin for not with the intention of observing legal But since it seems unbecoming that the in order to avoid should have hidden things pertaining to the truth of life and and that they should have made use of in things pertaining to the salvation of the therefore Augustine more fittingly distinguished three periods of One was the time that preceded the Passion of during which the legal ceremonies were neither deadly nor another period was after the publication of the during which the legal ceremonies are both dead and The third is a middle from the Passion of Christ until the publication of the during which the legal ceremonies were dead because they had neither effect nor binding but were not because it was lawful for the Jewish converts to Christianity to observe provided they did not put their trust in them so as to hold them to be necessary unto as though faith in Christ could not justify without the legal On the other there was no reason why those who were converted from heathendom to Christianity should observe Hence Paul circumcised who was born of a Jewish but was unwilling to circumcise who was of heathen The reason why the Holy Ghost did not wish the converted Jews to be debarred at once from observing the legal while converted heathens were forbidden to observe the rites of was in order to show that there is a difference between these For heathenish ceremonial was rejected as absolutely and as prohibited by God for all whereas the legal ceremonial ceased as being fulfilled through being instituted by God as a figure of I understand this middle At what time publication of the third is a middle from the Passion of Christ until the publication of the during which the legal ceremonies were dead because they had neither effect nor binding but were not because it was lawful for the Jewish converts to Christianity to observe provided they did not put their trust in them so as to hold them to be necessary unto as though faith in Christ could not justify without the legal Why should this middle period be Why Jewish converts to Christianity still observe the Old Law provided they put their trust in as though faith in Christ could not I still maintain that math does not explain It is used as a tool in in numbering in calculating Physics still uses or causality in the actual One needs to ask in each instance what is the relation between some mathematical formula and this specific scientific hypothesis or new since the Book of At least observing the ceremonial precepts of the Old Law would be grave I assume you mean matter   I think Passover is celebrated in the in a more universal and complete When Christ celebrated the Passover in the unleavened bread commemorated the haste of the departure that liberated Israel from and the manna in the It also commemorated the of at the end of the Jewish Passover It also brings all into participation in His death and He instituted the Eucharist in this CCC celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive passing over to his father by his death and the new is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the  So what does Florence mean for Catholic Passover meal celebrations and Mortally not that is why to celebrate the passover now means that one at least in denying the efficacy of I think is defined by intent and so I say There is no Passover any because the Mosaic covenant has come to an Scott is one should it might mean that you think the Passover though a prefigurement of could still be celebrated as a remembrance of the flight from which actually did I have a lot of Jewish friends that celebrate passover Like a part of your  The Seder wherein the Christological significance of the actions is is Not commenorating Christian Jews celebrate a Seder with the Christological significance in In Christian Jews perform all aspects of the Old Law with the Christological significance in  It depends on what they are trying to The Council of Florence on its surface seems to be condemning pretended converts who are secretly still practicing Judaism without Christological significance If they circumcise their sons for the sake of the that would be grave These since we have forced conversions and Jewish Christians would have no reason to pretend I like the Melkite Catholic they have a lot of liturgical things like the hymn of the women that the girls act out by going under this alter in the It is like but it is part of our It makes them feel part of a family The The Seder meal without the is rather a Not I It can be meaningful for a Thanksgiving is kind of like Which is why I see it as harmless for especially if it is only being done as an exercise to see the Christological significance of this historic I see why fine for Timothy to be but not for Jewish Christians to circumcise their When i said it was rather I meant for The or whatever makes no sense to Where is Timothy was circumcised in order to not give The question of circumcision had yet to be clarified throughout the whole of the scandalous to say that Paul did something sinful in order not to give offense It was a matter of Timothy was not circumcised in order to be under the it was not I know about if Jewish Christians circumcise their sons so that they will be like then that probably be Perhaps it was because he wanted to do as much as he could for that ethnic If it is for the sake of being under the I think it is a cultural What if it is in order to fulfill the Old while understanding the Christological significance of the Old Like a the Seder meal at the Like Catholic missionaries doing African dances during By the my wife lived in Australia for a Kangaroos also steal and can not to be saved by but to fulfill a practice that prefigures So If it is to fulfill the Old then you are implying that it had not been fulfilled by just thinking out have a worked out position on this I do not think circumcision is or was Circumcision was an occasion for let me how about follow a precept of the Old understanding that it has been fulfilled in But nothing of the Old Law fulfilled the Old except for Christ who was a It was the means of binding one to the Covenants of Well circumcision is minor To be seem to justify the just The debate would be over prophylactic surgery Leaving aside that are modeled after a practice years after and usually based on Ashkenazic ceremony opposed to Sephardic or the and therefore are a silly to celebrate it as the Jews do is both offensive to Jews and a mortal sin are prayers that refer to the messiah to I think it was just an external sign for being I am not sure if it imparted to paraphrase you begin in the SPirit only to end in the But a Christianized version of it may be if not done as a but for better would be to observe an actual and not partake actively in it Paul is referring to those who would say that circumcision is necessary for though If one is circumcised in order to follow the Old then one places himself under the Old That is not Samantha The Old Law is The Mosaic covenant has come to its As far as fulfilling the precepts of the old fulfil them by observing the new To stubbornly cling to mere figures is The new law is the fulfilment of the old To follow the old even if one does not claim it is necessary for is to go to the figures and In itself these practices signify something to but what they signify has already the new So the only way to be faithful to the law is to follow the new To practice the old is in a way to act since those acts themselves signify a reality to that has already There only the Abrahamic Davidic covenants that we participate I thought at times in the Old Testament you see that sacrifices and observances imparted grace and forgiveness of But not In the God said no sacrifice is it was only all about the and then the New Conversion of heart is all that is So if observing an Old observance aids in this more power to Aquinas holds that circumcision imparted I see no reason to Note that Aquinas in one sense says there is one not The Old and New differ by proximity to the the New being the So the of the promises of God to the Jews but it remains in the context of the New law as perfection of the The Jews have a special which is why Paul says they will all enter the Church before the In so far as the Old Law is put down as the governing principles of the Mosaic it has been because the covenant has passed away since in has The Mosaic did not simply govern the terms of the but stated expressly and determinately things that either or perhaps flow immediately the Natural Insofar as this is the we FOLLOW the Mosaic but we are not UNDER the Mosaic since it is not something that we refuse to grace living within we voluntarily follow the It is in this way that Paul is able to speak of the in There is a fundamentally new relationship between man and the Old It is no longer the governing terms of a but rather it is inscribed on our This is fitting insofar as the Old Law set down the pattern of how we ought to live in communion with What does the Church say about this I agree about it is a difficult one he changed his own mind So is the Old Law is inscribed on the heart of the I know about any definitive Church teaching about Old Testament  So then view is not  insofar as the Old Law was an iteration of the moral precepts that are the Natural it is inscribed on the hearts of all Baptized Above you say the Old Law is no longer the governing terms of a but rather it is inscribed on our Wondered what you mean by not sure about it is not inscribed on Our Hearts insofar as it is the Mosaic I think Gentiles had no sense of the old The Mosaic Law was given to govern a And I am not sure if the natural law is what is inscibed on our hearts in the Biblical Insofar as the Old Law was an iteration of the Natural yes they did have a sense of To say otherwise is to go contrary to The Old Law is not natural I I think philosophers could have cobbled together a natural law But the Old Law iterates precepts of natural For shall not Natural There is a dialogue between the Old Law and the Hellenic but the Old Law is from It is you seen the shall not Natural   Divine From I AM to because of the darkness of human minds due to our fallen it was expedient that even things that ought to be known by natural law should likewise be put down clearly by Divine so that they could be more surely Even the Old lacked the ability to effect what the Church  Only Jesus can multiple postpadding Jesus through Jesu per You are right I am teaching what the Church Ad Jesum per as usual The Church does not teach that the Old Law is Natural The Church does not teach that the Ten Commandments are the Natural You are right In the Ten Commandments can all be arrived by natural They are in precepts of natural as they are revealed by and more surely adhered For we have certainty in the word of Him who can neither deceive nor be The Church also teaches that Blessed Virgin at the first instant of her by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent in virtue of the merits of Jesus the Saviour of was preserved immaculate from all stain of original has been revealed by and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the They seem like divine law given to a nation by God so that they can live in a good way and worship The Old Law was given so that the Jews might know how to be people of Do the Ten Commandments still govern Israel and the Jews They ought Do they still use them I think they Catholics the commandment is is it Interesting thing about the The Ten The Hebrew characters that make up the words of the Ten Commandments are in this is also the number of laws there are in The idea being that the are contained in the whole and the whole in the you are of course I neglected the And the are contained in major I blame it on the Goodnight Why does TAC teach so little supernatural and those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith that may be known only by supernatural Why does TAC teach so little of To omit so much of this the the Immaculate the Grace and the yet to claim this is Catholic sacred theology seems like heterodoxy which is The reason I ask is that so much of our for will be This is the John has been declared by the Church as a Servant of meaning in which is the first step on the road to possible Question for Can we read Euclid as presuming a continuity What is the foundation for the distinction of discrete and continuous quantity in And if we treat as Viete and those after as unifying geometry and treating both discrete and continuous quantity with the same postulates and is the continuity hypothesis something mathematics can ever demonstrate or must it be merely a from outside mathematics What would a continuity postulate look Hilbert had one was so these Axiom of If AB and CD are any segments then there exists a number n such that n segments CD constructed contiguously from along the ray from A through will pass beyond the point Axiom of line An extension of a set of points on a line with its order and congruence relations that would preserve the relations existing among the original elements as well as the fundamental properties of line order and congruence that follows from Axioms and from is It seems to me the issue in mathematics over might only be resolvable outside and is a fault of trying to unify discrete and continuous axioms the free encyclopedia axioms are a set of assumptions proposed by David Hilbert in in his book Grundlagen der The Foundations of as the foundation for a modern treatment of Euclidean Other modern axiomatizations of Euclidean geometry are those of  I kill an ant and realize my three children were watching Shuson Kato why does TAC teach so little supernatural those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith the the Immaculate the Grace and the which can be known by faith To omit so much yet claim it teaches Catholic theology under the guidance of the Magisterium seems like the heresy of hit the fly he prays with his hands and with his feet Issa Kobayashi summer grasses all that remains of dreams Basho Matsuo this world of dew is a world of dew and yet Issa a good one for Scott letting go of a slanderous heart while shelling the beans Hosai Ozaki I have no But seeing as we are going to be spending our eternity in a supernatural and TAC says it teaches theology under the why does it teach so few of the supernatural principles of the Faith that may be known by supernatural grace alone the Immaculate the Grace and the What is the reason behind this To make the claim that you are guided by the Magisterium in what you yet omit these core does seem to engender the heresy of can you define the heresy of These haikus are beautiful little I assume that they were originally written in Japanese and that these are How wonderful must they be in by all The haikus are indeed disgusting people arguing over the price of orchids Shiki Masaoka these are all They are otherworldly in and they look very I will ask Michael Cibenko to give me some sense of them in Japanese and see if at the translations change Heterodoxy is the teaching of a version of the Catholic Faith that is in variance with a true version of the the Catholic and its are based largely and essentially on supernatural principles which may be known only by supernatural not In ommitting so much of this in its yet claiming that it is completely and fully even under the authority of the seems to present a heterodox version of the Faith and its Why does TAC do What is the reason behind this Since we spend eternity in a supernatural it would seem TAC would want to teach this part of the Why does it at the same say it is truly I have always though that Lord Basho was the master of but these other with whom I am not seem to match his Slice the first light everything in this room was already here Christopher Herold There is an underground American haiku tradition as Not at say Although I think they could I meant that about not the American tradition itself I know nothing so on the not indulge and those Haikus would be better with You are correct Autumnal jollies will never lose its place in my tNET purgatorial better to endure a seeming eternity on the unending Here is one of my the warbler poops on the slender plum branch Onitsura Uejima The haiku can often be quite I wonder if comes close to the It shocks a bit in but perhaps that does the original been reading a lot of Japanese short stories constantly struck by the totally alien worldview Say it is all modern stuff but I have to head Maybe more later I suspect that it does the original I find it quite funny and and haiku make very good witnesses to the surprising nature of I imagine the poet contemplating the lovely plum flowers and then pooping Hahaha Especially a I once saw a hooded warbler near the Museum of Science and Industry near the University of It was worthy of a haiku had I the talent to capture the moment of its unexpected a nifty American After weeks of watching the roof leak I fixed it tonight by moving a single board Gary Snyder I am familiar with this What do you think Snyder was trying to do with If that is the right question a fine I might have said is the nature of the moment he is attempting to or is unsaid in this Often what is left unsaid in the haiku is as important or more than what is It strikes me that it is NOT about being lazy and never getting around to doing what needs to be though that might be first I completely What What is the moment he wants to Or what is I believe the poem is expressing a certain harmony with the workings of That the man does as little as possible to interrupt what nature is  Snyder was really into Thoreau and and I think expressing the notion of of having the least effect on and thus effecting the least as It is also in the spirit of and his advocation of a return to to Back to  Longfellow The reference was more appropriate than I Thus the in the poem is something like I finally saw the single action I could take to interfere the least with the falling of the and I think what I did is kinda like what human beings should do all the time with  summer grasses the wheels of the locomotive come up to a stop Seishi Yamaguchi A lot of haiku get written about iron and deference to grass and here is the cutting I believe is the  aside from the fact that the translator indicated the cutting word with a after the first that is also the place that separates the two So why the word that ends the first image rather than the word that starts the second Ah I see what you mean perhaps this time the cutting word is after the I see no reason why it cannot be either The so to roll in to cut between the two contrasting It strikes me that haiku might be a very good place to begin to teach Its utter yet might serve to encourage students who otherwise find poetry I have wondered about How early do you teach The Red That poem is very being an image Is it helpful to do earlier or There if I may be so a certain immediate satisfaction that comes from a I do it first I did not realize until now why I have done From a good Bad haiku do fruitless damage to a young opinion of as has been evidenced by a few thoughts on The Then perhaps haiku would be a great place to I suspect students who would dismiss it so quickly would not be reached by other forms of poetry Unless the other forms have got lots of philosophy and Batter my heart I still get on board the haiku Would you like I railed against the haiku this summer and my friends and colleagues convinced me of its beauty and worth as a poetic I am not railing either any They took pity on my grossly ignorant despising of the lovely I was as it up into the rays of the and have returned down from the clouds to bring you the good news of the I think poem though certainly not a expresses the spirit to which the haiku Had I the choice to tally greatest To limn their and emulate at Homer with all his wars and Or fair Meter or wit the or choice conceit to wield in perfect delight of O all these gladly Would you the undulation of one its trick to me Or breathe one breath of yours upon my And leave its odor is a Aristotle points out a broad definition in the rhetoric that was Of course heart is That Whitman bit is exactly what the writer of haiku is attempting to A haiku one one Do you know about the Japanese tradition of the death Not a Often a written in the moments before and often an effort to it A much better image than the  A striking moment to try to slice between two life and monks and poets all wrote death but not employed the  Haiku strikes me as ideal at the moment of death given its effort to link two as it at any given moment in should I say Here is the death poem of a haiku poet of farewell I pass as all things the dew on the grass Allen death poem was also a and a very telling To see Void vast infinite look out the window into the blue metaphor that Actually void and sky I prefer Banzan to Ginsberg Oh no When not they seem to be a comparison of some Thanks for the help with I have to look at some poems now for leave you and John to determine the ultimate value of the Although this death poem is not a its level of badassery requires that I show it to you here by the Zen monk Shumpo My sword leans against the With its polished blade behead The Buddha and all of his Let the lightning strike where it Me after reading that If you meet the Buddha on the kill That was a book maybe tNET is just a giant Hokku written by all the The classical nomenclature  I believe those were collaborative composed of The hokku was the starting verse of a which was a collaborative poem written by I think at least three Once people starting enjoying just the hokku by itself it became what we now call the Renga is a lot of fun to write as more clear how about that Shumpo so metal So what say you about the ultimate value of the It seems not quite in camp and would not designate the haiku as But what WOULD you I would have to read They are a mixed But one could say the same of They are a mixed The use of a certain form does not guarantee the worth of a I prefer the Japanese selections In other there are good and bad I agree with you about the But bad sonnets are not But much as the various forms of government are not good and bad in and of and yet reveal something about the kind of men abiding in so the form of poem the poet chooses reveals something about how he looks at the Why do you say bad sonnets are not I agree with that at haha And what is that in the choice of Good have to think about but I think a desire for simplicity must be part of as well as a tendency to observation and A bad Haiku a bad Doggeral even has a and it has form and can be useful as Therefore the sage goes about doing teaching The ten thousand things rise and fall without yet yet not taking Work is then Therefore it lasts I could not resist one last attempt to say This is the another of from behind grey skies the gold sun burns off the frost are you awake Not sure what Are you praising the sonnet compared to the The haiku also has Not sure what you mean by as but if you mean it can act as an opposite of sorts that clarifies what it as in a the haiku can do that too in the juxtaposition of I think I agree that the Haiku is at But is there something too momentary and fleeting in It seems an empty peace in revery on a inane in the What is inane about attempting to conform a moment to the true eternal Or more allow the moment to conform A foil to good sonnet but perhaps that works just as well for And anyway all like all created are momentary and The haiku reflects Come i a backpeddling on what I said A few more of my own Notice that not trying to sell you a camera flash the eye of the future just winked at me soon summer will come and the pool will be so full her hairpins still here dripping water sound new vines on old cracked fountain light down on her arms I am still learning how to read these Comparison is heavily used and metaphor the metaphors must not be The main thing a haiku attempts to do is convey the sense of a That is hard to explain unless you have REALLY experienced You know that common phrase that begins awkward moment That is a pop It say anything about the moment or explain it just lays it out before you to see and to  I death on a ill my dream goes wandering over withered fields You Try writing telling Like But I have no memory of Then write a haiku about I can see that They are a peaceful the good it appears we have frightened off most of the denizens of TNET with all this haiku Perhaps we need to begin bridging the gap between the theologians and and the What is the proper relationship between poetry and hint think And more to the why is it totally okay for some people to be much better poets than I remember Boethius death the Consolation of But I would say poets have a wider audience and provide fare for the philosopher and common But the theologian or philosopher can provide night and Poets are Jeff haiku you Nice conference at with some TACers I The Power of Beauty Conference Franciscan University of Steubenville The webpage for the MA Philosophy Conference Schedule Franciscan University of Steubenville Mary Eucharista Gonzaga University Sorrowful music cleanses the Its flood of teardrops unnumbered cover sweetness When the clouds And our tears flow They leave behind blossoms On the meadows of But who lie philosophers or shall we include Corruptio  Michael Beitia Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe Daniel Lendman Scott Weinberg Peregrine John Ruplinger Scott Weinberg Joel HF Matthew Peterson Isak Benedict Joshua Kenz Jeff Neill Jehoshaphat Escalante Peregrine Bonaventure John Ashman Jeffrey Bond Catherine Ryland Daniel Pater Edmund John Boyer Jody Haaf  Lauren Ogrodnick Michael Bolin Nina Rachele Adrw Lng Megan Baird Frank Morris Sam Rocha Sean Robertson Aaron Gigliotti Tim Cantu There in the mist of being slide the tendrils of a tree its fruits both good and evil and happy meal makes three so if I were asked to interpret it would go like this there is all of this buzzing of expanding cosmos omniscience distributors of malfeasance for the biggest speed and the most important consideration for the welfare of humanity and being godly on earth as it is in heaven some people lead lives of not quiet desperation but of clutching for infinitude in finite material and not even classy stuff they shop at Walmart and they suck at driving The graph is now closer to linear So there are methods to intellectual akin to wooing I suppose I have grown to appreciate the rigor and aptitude and such but for it comes down to does it benefit others in a beneficial way so back to the bearing bearing fruits for the that ugh time for a swig of Cognac cheers how am I still on that list let me watch my Korean dramas in Glad managed to remain at the I am definitely a consumer when it comes to I was but just read through your haiku discussion with Very Funny that in that conference above by the speaker will be Roger I just had dinner with him this Haha Big Angry have to do better than Sean Robertson I pretend to be but every time one of these lists comes filled with shame and I not like tNET on a waste of time but then not homeschooling my son Haha I feel the same way Samantha and I have actually learned a lot from as well as working out a number of spiritual and psychological issues that had been troubling to that comment is a difficult I also notice a venerable TNETer on the conference Although it says from Notre when clearly his more important credential is Creator of the TNET hahahaha tNet is equally meaningful and frivolous still this far along Autumnal jollies autumnal jollies It is legislatively possible to repair the issues of the or will it come through other Creative Minority The Is Get Used To It Many people are understandably dismayed by the A study at the University of London found that participants who multitasked during cognitive tasks experienced IQ score declines that were similar to what expect if they had smoked marijuana or stayed up all IQ drops of points for multitasking men lowered their scores to the average range of an So the next time writing your boss an email during a remember that your cognitive capacity is being diminished to the point that you might as well let an write it for Multitasking Damages Your Brain and Your New Studies Suggest likely heard that multitasking is Edward wrecking my ratings by counting JA separately from Jehoshaphat Fixed Causal Substitution and Discuss this is Clickbait Serious Chickens have gotten ridiculously large since the What breeding can in one glorious  I think we can all agree that Pater Edmund has the best His numbers are staggeringly low considering how much impact he has had on TNET Only quantities can be in you done Freshman You expect me to remember things I learned FOUR years can I and it was six years ago for I was going to send in a slightly revised senior thesis to that b ut I have time and probably have been able to go with my schedule here going to assume that by schedule you mean your commitment to your vocation as moderator of Edward looks like Scott W has some stats that need collapsing as well I marked him in three just to be I teach classes at two institutions city miles apart two other paid gigs job apps and multiple writing this is virtually my only recreational Engaged in in bursts on the fly while moving along Which is why I post the linkedin Posting here or anywhere for me is usually while doing other so I may as well be an year old or high as a yes I have gathered that you have a very busy real Grad school affords me time to read TNET that you surely do not It is hard to type well with dead mosquitoes on your fingertips while trying to keep your keyboard SW  apparently not too to that Where mosquitoes are the official state But tNET is a jealous True I thought I had conquered the Book of And then tNET and conquered Ruining chances of tenure and my reputation among thousands of bewildered and disgusted silent Demanding The Book of the Sorrowful Faces always has another mutation of its virus to throw at Call no man free from Facebook until he is Matthew I bet tNET gets you a Just call it a research project in the political philosophy of social media and totes get a Looking up American Some of these are truly mating my overuse of dashes Daniel already done plenty of real world shtuff City Attorney threatened to sue Interview with the cited in Forbes and a few other Viral a few times before that was a Still mess around with Problem is in order to play with the big academic at some point you have to go all I would love to be at that Basho is really one of the masters of the This book helped me to understand what he was really Basho and His Selected Hokku with Commentary This book has a dual The first is to present in Matthew I did not know Lawsuits Sounds Threatened by a corrupt as hell We slapped him down with a fantastic letter from our own bad LAT amendment And that went all over the internets and made him look like a Then I started investigating sure he paid out a lot of money to get those blog posts deep down in the google I will still take him down if I get the if I had the money and the that looks like a great Municipal like shooting fish in a barrel if you want to go get after Matthew you should know my friend the commando Frank Avila Holy Moses why do I have I may have liked a number of your I have a habit of going back several hours on TNET and reading liking things merrily as I I think it was the haiku  All this talk of autumnal jollies just makes me sad that I seen autumn in since southern CA and FL have quite beautiful in Michigan this year with the leaves turning It reminds me that autumn is my favorite season with Spring a close lads Ever green Florida casts its glower on autumnal jollies I wrote a simplified version of a a Japanese collaborative with two friends tonight at Union I will post it So close to Maybe I should just post more Do it all by Challenge accepted Do they have to be good Off to a bad start TNET sleeps soundly But alone in the abyss I soldier onward we are here a day before the grand opening where are my TNET flirts with fate one perpetual eyebrow raised at all comments all behind you waves leaving foam on the shore red the sand saxophone music a California sunset and a neon sign Resting on cloudbed cut myself repeatedly slicing a melon I want to have kids so I can play pirate again hand me that compass TNET simply is Our comments pass It perpetually remains Excellent Sean getting the hang of it Adrw I very much appreciate your disregarding of the syllable A sign of insight into the haiku You broke the pattern random comments not allowed thank however Only oops oops oops oops oops my my my very bad sorry so sorry too rigid to disregard the True of more than just haiku for Has it been more than four hours been suffering from that condition You might want to pay the doctor a visit I find comfort in the poetic  but no relief I walked into that Good thing no one else Seriously though we got the soft lamp lit now moths begin to attend it my many ways Isak has begun TNET degeneration about autumnal jollies doing it doing No Daniel doing Sean may or may not suffer from a hard case of autumnal jollies TNET statpadding Beautiful poems at work Shameless waste I think that one of the principle things to recall when evaluating curriculum is that it is not a theology It is a liberal arts I think you should get comment Sean you landed a milestone comment yet have Some people seem to forget about Isak may or may not just be trying to get a rise out of me I will not take magisterium heterodox heresy autumnal jollies Do it has it all been worth it autumnal jollies I But you just stole I just resist the Not at all it was all in good fun and nope look again I heartily Now that we have passed our mark for the I believe I shall try to commence the catching of a Z or Multiple Zs if I Sweet Flights of angels et now more worthy of a A veritable monument I too must retire Sleep well TNET sleep well Badly will I snooze morning wake up call leaves turning red and yellow autumnal jollies it a shame I miss the overnight wanton flights of How else am I going to wake up one morning and find out how many angels can dance on the head of a Which order of the angelic hierarchy pushes the crystalline spheres Does ox progeny have a rational What is the Church position on natural Do people have a right to Or are they to be stopped from committing moral Poke it seems that ox progeny have rational because from a deficiency of strife and and excess of the admixture of fire and water produces the material necessary to receive a rational nice work going to make gnocchi How to Make An Recipe with Video Food Nouveau How to Make An  has to be one of my favorite tNET It ranks waaaay above groundless his name calling is probably a close So are groundless accusations your second My second favorite might be although they are a new thing in tNET those are way down on the the deja vu kind of nauseates I would probably haiku being called names groundless accusations For haiku Matthew Peterson whining about how tNET has ruined his life People flipping out at Scott patiently remonstrating with Scott groundless accusations Pulling beard about subjects various and sundry groundless accusations being called names would be considerably lower for you are I will say not even on the Ox progeny explain why people suspect there is No more No more young earther it says here in the bible that God is a so we know that CS Lewis got something with Who are you even I take the internet as I have a thick troll and so the name calling makes me especially the more upset the interlocutor human nature of all men is taking to himself the one human nature of man is an event which affects every human consequently human nature in every human being is henceforward Christologically Jeffie hates haikus lacking Autumnal jollies A ox Pray for china paint vir delicate as you will tantrums in teapots Morning coffee made Nineteen notifications TNET likes haiku Five haikus written in a row on tNET now Michael your status about no made me laugh out loud I help I obsessively Makes Rosary easy to keep track  I think we are butchering an art Kebaps Our Austrian way of in writing that last I realized not sure if your last name is syllables or It is a weird Basque Whatever you think it is or I think it might be Bullshit   I just made fun of your That was My name often is mistakenly pronounced  Now we are I made fun of my It is and it is only bullshit if named per operationem by the The above is what I like to call you might catch Daniel is shamelessly trying to catch up to Samantha for the right to sit at right hand side on the TNET comments considering no one ever has pronounced my name correctly on the first try not no but pretty it will take more than vulgarity to pierce this troll hide page but I was left Edward already has the right Everything I I do in an epic  By the I predict that the great social experiment of and its consequences will destroy our society and likely provoke a terrible You mean the stats man is in second place in the Seems who will police the policemen but it seem like there is a little truth to in terms of Katherine Timpf School Told to Call Kids Because and as with it can be carried to absurd ask yourself this configuration create a gendered Personality but when it comes to seems pretty binary to You may bring up the occasional but an aberration is just an  Using the example a person who was born without an arm mean there are now two kinds of and My wife was a growing In culture she would have likely been told that she as and if she had they might have given her a sex change  In Austria they do that to The on the is of very good There are only people in If we could get Catholics to come we could totally take this country back and reinstate the Hapsburg I think that picture is actually primarily the result of selective not sure how hard to pursue And injected And other the point of the study was to see how the breeds have changed  Chickens from chicken ranches today are disgustingly Free the give me I think with my Chickens have gotten ridiculously large since the What breeding can in one glorious In just years or chickens have been bred to be much The image above comes from a study done by researchers at the University of who raised three breeds of chickens from different eras in the exact same way and measured how much they ate and how they This allowed them to see the genetic differences between the breeds without influences from other factors like food or antibiotic They recently published their results in Poultry have to since I get direct access to the is bad Give me skinny I know generally skeptical of fads Great news Sorry to interupt the Chicken But it appears an epic poem has been written in the past Lepanto by Chesterton The Poetry Foundation White founts falling in the courts of the And not a fan of though yet to attain to an Elliot Milco level of gk I hate You folks making lists of favorite things about TNET forget the brilliant GKC is If I could only choose one poet to read for the rest of my I think it would be because I can only take certain doses of him at a but he has some great happy Feast of John Henry I love the I wish the whole darn thing was more because I bet there were other fun elements or trends to include just too far back in the stone ages of TNET to I think calling them penguins is discriminatory against hermaphrodite The ducks will not tolerate And what shall we say of the The poor made of the leftover parts that fell on the floor of The The transvestite of the animal Joel I hear you about He is very popular at and I argued with people a lot about But I love him for what he for what he tried to I like his poetic view of That is I handle THEY ARE RAISING PENGUINS IN These people need to be locked Did anyone else see the for Gender I did not so much want to promote GKC with the but to spread the news that an epic poem has been written in the past is kind of short for en I know if there is a length Is there an epic  It has been suggested before that TNET itself is in fact an epic I sing of Buffeted by Latium at mechanist Animals made out of parts tNET is a surrealist pursued by a The Tale of the White epic this seems to be more of an The Ballad of the White by Chesterton This ballad needs no historical for the simple reason that it does not profess to be All of it that is not frankly as in any prose romance about the is meant to emphasize tradition rather than King Alfred is not a legend in the sense that King Arthur Derek is definitely a modern good Omeros A poem in five of circular narrative titled with the Greek name for which simultaneously You may not speak badly of the Ballad of the White Chesterton hate Hipster Catholicism But Chesterton was a Ballads can be Epics become mainstream since he died My attempt to be a hipster is to like all the things that normally skip a generation from Omeros by Derek Walcott The Poetry Foundation BOOK SIX Chapter XLIV those gnocchi took forever your photoshopping would be somewhere in the on my list Gnocchi is I hope they were home If I fall to Big Angry I will blame the gnocchi you have insulted me for the last Walcott seems I wonder if the modern epic replaces impression with How dare you imply I would buy store bought Of course they were home My grand Store vacuum packed I had Gnocchi in a restaurant in They said it was It I had to send it I cannot even talk about have I already asked you for novella I think I might and gotten a few but asking again just to see if anyone has any under words or Look at all the beasts in the Divine The hour of and the delicious But not so that did not give me fear A aspect which appeared to And a that with all hungerings Seemed to be laden in her And many folk has caused to live such made me that beast withouten coming on against me by degrees Thrust me back thither where the sun is The Death of Ivan Ilyich was mentioned Amerika by Franz The Ordeal of Gilbery Pinfold by Evelyn Waugh Rasellais by Sam Johnson The Stranger by Albert Camus It is funny how these three stories seem to be kind of the same general story Amerika is anything by Flannery Kafka was so painfully pained by the simplest of to the point of being In he describes the statue of liberty as holding a instead of a Read that Great The Kreutzer though horrible read Hadji Murad Cat and Mouse by Gunter A couple of paragraphs should be but pretty unique and Hadji Murad is also but quite a departure from his usual subjects going to do National Novel Writing Month and I want to read a few more outstanding novellas or short novels before Death in  What is National Novel Writing Death Comes for the Archbishop by   Is The Call of Cthulhu long enough to Amerika and Death Comes For The Archbishop are great both longer than what looking looking for things longer than The Strange Tale of Jekyll and but shorter than The Great I forget exactly how long it but I think this one is long enough it is Fifth Head of by Gene last night Roger Scruton recommended I read Notes from which is only just over Not sure if read it before or but it might fit the to be more he first recommended I read his own novel called Notes from and then recommended Never heard of the Wolfe I love Notes from the How long is Silas by George It might be too Wow been years since I read that I barely remember Looks like Silas Marner is too It is still Wow The Fifth Head of Cerberus looks I love good spoil it for even if you it would still reward No I just looked at the Amazon I love Even when Samantha misspells out from two sister Saint Anne and Saint circle each other in an eternal It is said a race of shapeshifters once lived only to perish when men But one man believes they can still be somewhere in the back of the Gotta read By the my dear good I am writing a I plan on completing it after I finish a devotional to It will be about its form is taking It is about the adventures of a refugee in It is titled the boy who was Here is some of from the She came in on the ship last Her dress is her blouse is She came in on the ship last He can see her through the gray And when she looks she sees the lost then and She came in on the ship last his testimony had set off a fire It was a message the media had never heard And one of their reporters had seized upon a cub looking or a This who shall go for the time had cut his so to on political campaigns in Virginia where he had acquired the skill of drawing attention to a word or in order to put down political advance an or propel a local issue to the national But this was his first real his first real job and steady pay And so it was that unscripted remark made its way to the top of the news that It was a simple response he had given to a question posted by an Honorable Gentleman from the Great State of This Congressman praised Amerigo for his then asked how it was that he able to not lose his hope during his lengthy ordeal in the refigee was able to not lose hope because I remained was It was curious remark that caused many to But the Kansas Representative had used up all his All poetry went down hill after the I wish I could read ancient  Why take such a sad view of I am only taking a controversial Trying to get things Alexander Pope restored in his translation of the Iliad and his Essay on is Dante is the great peak after By the my dear good I am writing a I plan on completing it after I finish a devotional to It will be about its form is taking It is about the adventures of a refugee in It is titled the boy who was Here is some of from the She came in on the ship last Her dress is her blouse is She came in on the ship last He can see her through the gray And when she looks she sees the lost then and She came in on the ship last his testimony had set off a fire It was a message the media had never heard And one of their reporters had seized upon a cub looking or a This who shall go for the time had cut his so to on political campaigns in where he had acquired the skill of drawing attention to a word or in order to put down political advance an or propel a local issue to the national But this was his first real his first real job and steady pay And so it was that unscripted remark made its way to the top of the news that It was a simple response he had given to a question posed by an Honorable Gentleman from the Great State of This Congressman praised Amerigo for his then asked how it was that he able to not lose his hope during his lengthy ordeal in the refigee was able to not lose hope because I remained was It was curious remark that caused many to But the Kansas Representative had used up all his then Ogden Nash Pope is the most quoted poet But Dante should Ogden Nash Dante loved Where is Tom Who is the or  Alexander Pope Dante Dante has an encyclical written about   I fixed that literally hours big Cervantes killed Shakespeare is infinitely superior to Not even in the same Shakespeare wrote I disagree how about Lamb Shakespeare Pope wrote better couplets than Pope was a technically superior Shakespeare and Cervantes What about Shakespeare padded After there was Cervantes and Shakespeare are the big from where and not easy to determine the top I favor Dryden Pope Pope is very But writing better couplets and being good technically is not Surely you must include This is It is better that the God loves from whole to but human soul Must rise from individual to the but serves the virtuous mind to wake As the small pebble stirs the peaceful The centre a circle strait Another and still another first it will His country and next all human Wide and more of the mind Take creature of Earth smiles with boundless bounty And beholds its image in his Pope is I am speaking of mere Homer is a Technique is The Bard is That Pope excerpt is needlessly from his Essay on What you said about reminds me of a story  It is fitting then as an Do tell It is not better than the I know Cervantes was a is Miguel Pope from The Rape of the It is finer than the Oft when the World imagine Women The Sylphs mystick Mazes guide their all the giddy Circle they And old Impertinence expel by What tender Maid but must a Victim fall To one but for When Florio what Virgin could If gentle Damon did not squeeze her With varying from They shift the moving Toyshop of their Where Wigs with with Beaus banish and Coaches Coaches This erring Mortals Levity may Oh blind to the Sylphs contrive it Virgil and Horace deserve some John Nieto was taking a ride with a Frenchman in He told the Frenchman that he came from the land of the best wines in the The Frenchman seemed confused and not the first best John French wines of The Frenchman then gave a look that you thought that there was really a comparison between French wine and whatever you think wine That is But it does not compare to the heights of And that is a fantastic Funny because there is much shoddy French Here is Queen Mab It is but every second line could be cut without diminishing its In half of it could be removed without diminishing its I see Queen Mab hath been with She is the and she comes In shape no bigger than an On the of an Drawn with a team of little atomies Athwart noses as they lie Her made of long The cover of the wings of The traces of the smallest The collars of the watery Her whip of the lash of Her wagoner a small Not so big as a round little worm from the lazy finger of a Her chariot is an empty Made by the joiner squirrel or old Time out mind the And in this state she gallops night by night Through and then they dream of that dream on who straight dream on ladies who straight on kisses Which oft the angry Mab with blisters Because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted Sometime she gallops a And then dreams he of smelling out a And sometime comes she with a tail Tickling a nose as lies Then he of another Sometime she driveth a And then dreams he of cutting foreign Of Spanish Of healths and then anon Drums in his at which he starts and And being thus frighted swears a prayer or two And sleeps This is that very Mab That plats the manes of horses in the And bakes the elflocks in foul sluttish Which once much misfortune This is the when maids lie on their That presses them and learns them first to Making them women of good This is ROMEO Thou of In many scenes from Hamlet have been without losing But with every line is necessary to complete the I always thought that God inspired Shakespeare to write this sonnet for my From fairest creatures we desire That thereby rose might never But as the riper should by time His tender heir might bear his But thou contracted to thine own bright thy flame with Making a famine where abundance Thy self thy to thy sweet self too Thou that art now the fresh And only herald to the gaudy Within thine own bud buriest thy tender waste in Pity the or else this glutton To eat the by the grave and times like this really grateful for TNET giving tests in all six of my class periods and I would be bored out of my mind Keeping an eye on the kids means you read a TNET requires slightly less concentration perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of the Queen Mab And perhaps you misunderstand then I have a With poetry it is always better to read How does that work with been trying but it seems to fail as a verbal art form I love but only when he reads it perhaps the sense would not be But the sense is not You would lose the the sheer joy of Fry and Laurie might agree with you Shakespeare sketch A Small Rewrite Live Shakespeare sketch called Small made for Comic with Hugh Laurie as Shakespeare  a haiku by Jack The taste of rain Why With you can cut many lines without losing He repeats the same thought over and From fairest creatures we desire That thereby rose might never From fairest creatures we desire That thereby rose might never Within thine own bud buriest thy tender waste in Pity the or else this glutton To eat the by the grave and But repetition is I know a lot of people agree with I actually agree with I studied under a Pope The Picture of Dorian Grey by Weird William You can say that  Sense and joy must go together like matter and Atkinson and Perhaps Queen Mab is a poor because it is the ramblings of a mad I Michael I would agree that the haiku does not immediately lend itself to the pleasures of hearing it There is not much to the and thus not much to The pleasure in hearing a haiku aloud is more intellectual I I say that it completely fails as a verbal art form It is still But the Henriads can be cut significantly without losing In his plays were sometimes cut down even in his I have This does not mean they are not great plays and masterpieces of our One of my own that I like the sound Read it baby throw me I return even in spring rain Atkinson is the  The problem Haiku is it is so easy to write a terrible And the nature reference have to have any intrinsic Terrible haiku are accidental to the Would you say easier to write a bad haiku than a bad I prefer metrical  I prefer one of the leaves have started turning as Autumn now takes hold the days are getting shorter and the getting cold the world is covered in pumpkin spice cinnamon is in the air I have to unpack I know I care Summer now is finally passed there can be no fuck that star Betelgeuse I hope he supernovas lines The nature reference definitely has an intrinsic It sets the moment in which the poet attempts to convey an eternity firmly in a in one of the demarcations of Michael you like there may be a Bestiary right up your  Romeo and Juliet depends on The letter is not delivered simply by Too many literary neophytes praise Shakespeare without scholastic I prefer to drop poetically My bestiary is not But a beitiary Last April I wrote a poem for every day of National Poetry Month wow days of trash were you protesting National Poetry no I only write trash I actually like poems are trash you only write white Those doggerel I only write white trash But I like especially Rounds for the house for Autumn with their remind me of the shoe to Sunny afternoons with a light breeze very soon will have to Soon be waist deep in snow freezing and Shoveling with hat and drinking coffee in the icy for I can stare up into the a reasoning And give two middle fingers to smirking I am against National Poetry Month as Against National Poetry Month As Such A web feature for My Way by Charles Visit I love Rome and I love a good coming out of R J is too I dislike thanks I want to be the only one Against Chesterton Quotations I was wandering through Facebook and noticed a quote by Chesterton at the top of is when you stand up in a half and raise a pint and burst forth in impromptu rhyming iambic Why Christendom teach its students what poetry Why does it insist on misleading them as to the fundamental definitions and rules of And then you Quaffing is drinking only you spill I have been reflecting that the TNET really is a glorious representation of what it is to be a TAC there is sin and human but on the it is We are willing to engage anyone on almost any subject and we are eager to learn and hear different We are not afraid jests or trivial but on the we are occupied with the the True and the I love my alma At they flog you if you do not worship   Well said my back is lined so deep with brutal but did I within in these holy Chesterton more like a huge waste of time Autumnal jollies response of might give one a clue as to the length of that A lot of people get the Queen Mab Shakespeare knew a lot of people get the Queen Mab why he had the titular Romeo not get the Queen Mab I like I like Chesterton I am sure to not make the perfect the enemy of the Chesterton a perfect or or but he is a good thinker and Joel this is Fry and Fry and Laurie Shakespear Master Class At Nether Wallop Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie give a master class in By the my is Hugh or I think you really be a poet if you are only Fry and Laurie are I think Chesterton was a poet first and a His discovery and reversals were outstanding his play His prose bears this quality in His reversals and discoveries in Magic seem far better than even in Romeo and Juliet which are very chancey and not Chesterton is working with a much higher metaphysics than even at so true  This is kind of HHS There may be other cases of Ebola in the also Of course it whatever you Thank glad you agree with   to hold any author as equal is to hold any author as equal is The only possible exceptions I can think of are Dante and Comment I love Not Good He was Pope is better than Shakespeare in Maybe Horace but never read him Goethe in German is I did not know you had a degree in Ask it belongs to the philosopher to judge all things Tolstoy thought Shakespeare was and would angrily argue the point with all and for the Now one needs a degree in literature to disagree on Would the same I for oh I Only Tolstoy did not use the word a degree in literature is just about as worthwhile as a degree in gender Chaucer has his as do Icelandic Sagas in FWIW In they often are the same thing by different You do not need a degree in theology to know with accuracy what its first principles What are the first principles of and why does TAC not teach Guess what Dante and Goethe have in Martin Luther might be more accurate than They each did not know how to change a light they all basically invented their respective Icelandic sagas are older vernacular literature and just as great That is not true at all about Faust part sucks Chaucer gets little Goethe was good when he was but he went off the deep Jehoshaphat Escalante Pop Sonnets songs in is not true at all about Goethe why I qualified myself to refer to The Saga of Burnt Njal shows the development from a vendetta culture to a culture ruled by It is an amazing piece of literature documenting an amazing history of I like saying a little insulted by your statement that a degree in literature is as worthwhile as a degree in gender But I figure out in what way I presume it means you have a low opinion of Am I I just think worth the time and effort required for an advanced Especially if you get professors that turn it into a degree in gender studies class wrong with class A degree in rhetoric is How come TAC does not teach I thought rhetoric was one of the liberals We read about And we do it in We we read And De Doctrina of which Book IV is all about something It is definitely that influence on Modern German was and you should see the way native German speakers treat I had a German class with a professor from she generally had the students read the German sentences to be except the one time that there was a significant selection from Goethe Schubert Erlkönig Franz Schubert Il re degli Elfi originale tedesco è un Lied di Franz Schubert sui versi ballata di  Police officer fatally shoots teenager in south Louis News Police say victim fired at officer but family disputes LEE ENTERPRISES This happened very close to my A couple of blocks from our My friend lives on this I babysat for her the night I trolled about brown file under shoot at it the account is then it another Michael Brown But the protests are still gathering how long have you lived in the Since get used to It took me a few Denver but there this racial tension at yup I know how much it matters which story is situation could easily get out of hand I was called by a high school when I was a piece of People are worried it will be another scary stuff Saying Outside my every a group of the School of harangues passersby with a in my suit and I look the white glad you guys do so much What on earth is the Israelite School of the look it but I want to get on any FBI watch lists why do you need to know so so Type We own TAC is the leading school of No less than the Poverty Law Center has labeled ISUPK an and The other schools of rhetoric read idiots like Cicero and they wear funny costumes and talk about how the white man is a devil and white jesus is a devil and a but Jesus was Lots of We read Cicero I why so And Flannery They also yell a lot about gays and Those prayers are being offered in a Balkan Kaff that visiting at the moment with some disabled people and attendant knights of a Croation village in Herzogowina that is also an interesting place to study the current state of the and the alleged site of certain visions which would probably be good material for the Thread to argue Croats are great soccer    I played soccer for Croatia in Easy there Pater have to check with the censor before you say anything To out on Waaaay I like But I love Our Lady of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of The Austrian novelist Peter Handke once claimed that during the Yugoslavia war he considered leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Serbian Orthodox because Pope defended the the worst Catholics in Not sure what that judgement was based they may be bad but soccer Jesus Jesus is really Jesus was probably very Thank you for saying that Thank you for thanking me Cardinal Schonborn all about I should But I Good things happen at may be over the but on board with Virginia is for Kardinal Christoph Schönborn made some interesting points about Thousands upon thousands of people go to confessions Yet Loving was against Virginia in Loving  OH You just tagged a Cardinal in That would be neat if Cardinal Schoenborn participated in  I suppose As long as he read the past comments Scott Hahn Te Deum Another from as Cardinal Schonborn Those their personal pages  Oh Now Scott Hahn will come to the Scott you did not just do That would be fun He tagged Scott public figure page a while ago in an effort to get us to think he knew him I already tagged Aristotle I thought Pater Edmund might actually be facebook friends with the and Plato    I want Aristotle to come  Pater Edmund probably is I am That is good John Janaro  What a relief Daniel Michael Davies pretty much took it apart years Bishop Peric has some wonderful homilies on the gifts of the Holy Spirit  Are you in Austria now Pater Edmund is more like Bernard of Cardinal Schönborn is a prince of the and thus refrain from further May the Holy Spirit grant him I tag straight to the God John Janaro I know  I know a bunch of the homeschooling families I consult with them for Great Schnitzel and struedel for Michael Davies took what  It sounds idyllic in Gaming John what are the first principles of sacred It does sound idyllic in Michael and God win TNET But I live in Less But more And more  I know the Tereks One point that Cardinal Schönborn made was that of all the places that Our Lady could have appeared an ugly gravelly hill next to a middle of nowhere village in a disputed part of the Balkans was one of the least likely to have much and that this fits with the general method of divine choosing the weak The Tereks are wonderful Daniel you have become a shameless comment really a You should reflect on your Davies with the blessing of Bishop Peric exposed I stop It is a no You crazy people all do realize that anyone who is friends with me on FB can see and that includes lots of professionals who will judge the College based on this  With regards to I personally believe it is But I have been edified by the example of some Catholics who find in that place a reason for great hope and great So I wait for the Church to  What did we say Comment though grave is mitigated by its acquisition as a My friends see it Before promoting you have to look at what the local bishops have There is no doubt about  I think that those who are not in tNET have learned to ignore it by Most people are probably turned off by the I thought that mentioning certain controversial Balkan villages would bring out Matthew inquisitorial Talk to Scott about that Potentially lurking are people of varied and Some some less not saying this in regard to anything in particular that has been but to the whole tNETty Nice I care about Balkan  be good Do you mean when someone asks why TAC does not present most of the dogmas of the Church to its and a couple dozen TAC alum tell him to the whole world can see  I speak for half of them actually I try not to say anything on TNET that I say in a or at least defend it  although said lots of thing in a I say them publicly What prompted it is the tag but realize that many along those lines are friends and could be watching Like the Old Law is the Natural Speech on The Neverending Thread shall remain God is always watching Matthew Peterson Matthew friends list for important I think the only one who needs to be really worried is Samantha needs to know He actually has a job that is politically  I am more worried about opinion of what I say than the I want to be allowed to say things like and A good medga debate is fine by Nice trolling by Pater I quoted that in the first or so comments on there is no debate I have no Pray and I  I know Isak but we needed a new meme If I I be continuing the process of my over  It is probably time for a musical interlude too Holy Moses you have a lot of friends Matthew I think some of the TAC theses are idle Thanks for the comments Matthew networks Samantha I get the sense that phil jobs are a bit more in demand than politics jobs these It is Fortunately Caleb is already This thesis seems pretty defense of Do you guys think if I say things like and I might go to a fantastic  I think you are safe Isak That last job I posted as a status would actually be a great but I suppose the Catholic side of it might turn you are still in position to publish and move up the Until someone writes a thesis on fantastical I will never be if anyone reflected on warning before he gave he should probably not be on Facebook at This is not a private  I read that so wrong That would also be I care if you This thread is like an open The consequences are on you and your there are plenty of theses on matter and and pretty much the same thing Sean Kelsey is probably never on Sean does not too One of the most interesting things about being here is to observe the character of popular piety in our He posted something about monkey Sean also posted something about prime Say Monkey bread and prime I forward all your comments to Samantha Cohoe  Except that this the typical sample set Pater Edmund more pater There is let alone popular on reverence for THomastotle Popular piety on TNET now a fantastical beast for Any time I start to think that maybe I spend time commenting on I am comforted by Pater continued Then disheartened when I see the and realize not on here that You know barely checked my news feed in the last two All because of far more Come this is the best thing to happen to Facebook since The good father enjoys trolling more than one might think a monk One thing interesting is that it has developed in a way quite unexpected by the of the Liturgy after the Hahaha Matthew Peterson is friends with Sherif Small I said it when I first tagged Pater eons ago to the REAL best thread on Of I was being facetious I built better than I when was the last time I was able to get into an argument with Samantha Cohoe about been too Big Far too I feel closer to everyone because of Pater has developed in a way unexpected by the of the The huge emphasis on eucharistic adoration outside of Mass for on auricular on fasting and other I still deny that this thread is representative of much of than the democracy of Matthew FB I we have a class we would feel awkward I seen you in You look talk about how evil Elizabeth I Samantha Cohoe FB friends with Sherif Girgis only I believe his wife did drop by the religious liberty conference I was at this summer in But all these circles are Having finished cooking and eating my dinner of fettuccine with mushrooms in a red wine and also outlining a few castles in the sky with my amazing young I feel it is necessary to say one thing of Everybody who writes poetry has to settle for being because if they are hoping for a deeper spiritual potential than the Divine Comedy they should see a Dante for what he the best damn poet ever to spell and the reason he has an encyclical was because the one guarantor we have of infallible eternal truth in this world saw fit to pronounce this in no uncertain truly my favorite Papal moment apart from Peter going back to get crucified like a real I am willing to hear claims that Shakespeare can occasionally like in the They will be wrong but at least Milton does not enter the because he Eliot was cribbing his notes from the Comedy the whole time and qualifies as a clever Homer and Virgil were epic but Dante can be seen as the guy who challenged both of them to a rap battle and would be full of respect as would Anyone who mentions Whitman or Wordsworth get the silent treatment until they Just so everyone knows how it would have you read Romano lectures on They are And I think there is an Italian Sherif is a Princeton and a very brave may I Not the book on the angels in The posthumously published lectures on the whole Divine Ooooh want Dante and the Blessed Virgin is quite Pater is fast from go to confession and do adoration The thread work because of the democracy of my it works because of the desire of TAC grads to have instant access to conversation as It was kindled by the naivete of TAC grads like moths to the could not stop arguing with of this desire to reason with Scott had already spawned other But it works with that sort of it reached critical mass as a place for people to have an instant convo with a TAC or it is really driven by a small circle of which is why I advise tagging people more often in order to keep it What it reveals is the need for a sort of instant group chatroom for the TAC alumni I take it talking about and not would make so much more Tom I am glad you love Alexander Dante writes about fantastical beasts in Book Although I am a magnanimous except for when I am antico e nuovo sacra Matthew may be arrogant on the but they are also very even to the point of in pursuit of conversation aimed at the What part of rivals indicates anything about whether I like Alexander I like Pope is hit or The most miraculous thing about Dante is he did most of his writing after he was  Tell us how you really feel Sean I meant Just And I love especially when he makes repeated Dante references as he tends to or not they are Pope is ALL With varying from They shift the moving toyshop of their Where wigs with with Beaux banish and coaches coaches This erring mortals levity may Oh blind to the Sylphs contrive it because pretty sure the others thought you meant I am with Tom on Dante wrote about fantastical So did I am like Dante was humble My favorite thing from Alexander In in hour Resistless the Muse obeys the She she the sable throne behold Of Night and of Chaos Before gilded clouds And all its varying rainbows die Wit shoots in vain its momentary The meteor and in a flash As one by at dread The stars fade off the ethereal As by wand Closed one by one to everlasting Thus at her felt and secret Art after art goes and all is See skulking Truth to her old cavern Mountains of casuistry her that on heaven Shrinks to her second and is no Physic of Metaphysic begs And Metaphysic calls for aid on See Mystery to Mathematics In they turn and veils her sacred And unawares Morality Nor public nor dares to Nor human spark is nor glimpse thy dread is Light dies before thy uncreating Thy great lets the curtain And universal darkness buries threadish and on that good night Matthew is exactly right about why tNET is so addictive for the small circle is dominated by which makes it more fun for Saying Dante wrote about fantastical beasts is like saying Milton mostly wrote about and for us who are later than an interesting way to interact with our predecessors and fellow with whom we would otherwise have no Sean Matthew what would an alumni chatroom look tNET Maybe multiple tNETs by topic with one big free for all tNET in the middle  sorry for all the been trying to improve the picture Except I would never go to a TAC so it would be missing out like of what has made tNET The unexpected fruit of tNet for me is the desire to go and read things not thought about or heard in a long time or ever  Just eyeballing the pie chart Nurds Fun fact apparently in my foolhardy quest to get certified to talk at people about their I get to become proficient in discussing ancient Roman law This is as good a place as any to why the hell am I the only TACer here in Rome doing We should be stuffing enrollment and making entire waiting lists in our rush to Every lesson is just a whole new epic Today we were discussing the foundations of Medieval law in light of the division of empire and It was I think find the study of canon law Especially since it basically guarantees that the only jobs be able to find would be on marriage mean half of it written about already but I am an oddity in having my philosophy and theology already and also having written on I thought about Canon but want to spend my life working on Chose Theology Tom if I was going to pursue a career in canon be doing what you are been enjoying hearing about your and still not one pick up Tom level of intention is needed for a valid I considered but decided that I had enough philosophy Ed yes because we all got our graduate degrees to guarantee considering the sheer job security of canon law is looking sexier and sexier in this I could probably get a government job with equally good job security What dorm was everybody I was in all four Peter and Bernards FTW These are going to brag about trailer Milton mostly wrote about Bernard description of beasts at the beginning of the Divine Comedy is worth  Joel started matrimonial law Right now it is constitutional philosophy of Roman history of canon munus general and next semester fundamental I loved I just found something Serrans composed against Bernardians I think my freshman or sophomore check this and pasta  My first history lesson was entitled of canon law as the history of It was suitably are the grievances against that wormlike of dormitories known as that upon one during the course of Blessed wooing of they did most perniciously launch water balloons at the girls of they insulted the name of referring to her by the most undescriptive and inaccurate title of As the night a certain little boy of deemed it honorable and proper to posture obscenely in the direction of the beauteous girls of Peter and civilized the history of Italian food is the history of i mean upon another the bestial denizens of did once again hurl water balloons at certain of their pitiful number took it upon themselves to spray a number of girls with shaving Having tired of these manly they did under pretext of apprehending members of Blessed Serra in the to assail the lovely dorm of They did approach the sacred dorm without deeming it necessary to even attempt to dignify their slight and paltry bodies with I am going to abstain from discussion of dorm The dorm wars stories were varied and You loved dorm wars  I for as long as we kept them my claim about marriage tribunals was because I want that not because of job That is but we need more smart TAC folks to step up to the Pater Edmund was the last great dorm Tom as marriage use and just imagine your wife as TAC drops the proverbial ball when it encourages everyone to serve the Church and says little about particular service to her when we produce so many fully capable Jehoshaphat Escalante I imagine it would be a step to helping many marriages where they use condoms and replace their wife with pictures of Jennifer omits instruction of most infallible Scott the grownups are talking calls what it teaches produces alum whose only response is juvenile IMO Philistinism about careers outside the normal TAC tracks is a unfortunately common and mistake provincial of The Church and the world needs help Sometimes I wish I could hire John Kaiser to come into discussions and constructively ridicule holds first principles in higher place than the first principles of Sacred Theology Ridicule is not the proper response to good read Everything is better with Johnny and Old I return fondly to the memories of the Great Feasts of the hoards of the piles of rosemary bread prepared by Catherine the the way the time stops for festival Why does TAC present all the first principles of but only about three percent of the first principles of sacred That would be a good thesis Aristotle was not The central message of Buddhism is not man for And the London Underground is not a political who deny a first principle should be beaten or exposed to fire until they concede that to burn and not to or to be beaten and not to be are not Avicenna Tom have you read Aristotle and Cicero on arrogant call you would be an insult to stupid know sheep that could outwit worn with a higher have you read any of the things people said to explain how you are wrong about Demonstrate that by not acting like an obsessed and I will entertain the possibility that you are actually interested in polite it a great Tom lets talk about your classes off tNET why does TAC not teach most of the principle Dogmas of the Sorry if I have missed but no one seems to have explained Just arrogance and like yours the word is sort of a cop about sorry you COULD go with though but that means a slightly different thing It seems TAC SHOULD teach the bulk of the principle supernatural for these are the principles of sacred But TAC does Why is I am just the word is not principle really Why does TAC not teach the principal dogmas of the Church which are supernatural and can be known by faith like the the Immaculate the doctrines on the Virtues and Why so It seems it should teach more of because it portrays itself as teaching Catholic and to not to seems fraudulent and In you do not seem to answer the You just hurl insult and like first principals of John grr Infallible Dogma known only by Hear those The natives are I thought we were going with not Why do you not answer this simple yet instead It is a simple I think he dogmas which are principles of not principal Why do you not teach most of the principals of sacred This seems like a rip can you make tNET That would help some simple in the you pose the question to And when you like ten million comments I Scroll back are grr Why this You know the I mean the principal The main supernatural ones known by Faith Poor Scott is now very confused about principle vs and the prince of principle principals the fellowship fight off a cave troll  Poor She is not Yet studied at a Catholic college that does not teach the first principles of mostly they ran answer We love what is the principl of Why are animals teaching us about the churches revelation rather then a How come not many graduate would you know Theology knowledge answer Rosary I may check in later Hey I was genuinely sympathetic to you for a minute So much anger and grow but I only ask about the birds and bees and coconut trees sad you cannot TAC calls itself a Catholic that teaches yet is omits the bulk of what the Church presents infallibly as the beginning of sacred How does one manage an office in the Federal Republic well at the same time imagine fantasy animals informing our lives and telling them what to do in mind control Why is Sad you cannot control the animals that you admire and as role models for our children tNET seems to be a reflection of the heterdoxy of Thomas Aquinas  just a simple question that seems to trouble Your political writings about the affairs of animals trouble all of mankind are reflection of the heterodoxy of the animal questions about theologies deepest answer The Owl reads theology at And metaphysics by the evening Always quench your academic To know thy but always love Him the bestiary is principally A haiku in the style of one Edgar Allen composed on this day by one Isak for the edification of one Scott the drums of the the the drums beating on the drums Is it good for kids to go feral imitating theological Thanks for the God Better than telling anyone to go to heck Go bess the strange mutated animal kingdom trying to control through legislation and the powers that be theiloy Pretty solid Adrw Scoot no idea up against found a perfect solution for dealing with I just imagine Cowboy Hip Hop Krafty Kuts with Guizi Masterino Get to a good thesis top for Why the Socratic method does not lead to truth in Catholic why Thomas wrote the Summa as a a good thesis topic for why animals who cannot speak and do not even have thoughts art teachers and why we would place them in front of us teachers rather that Talk theology much as a word yet theology not much talk to Underside Republican upside down why do you avoid talking creation and the animals that are inside of Why are chimpanzee so arrogant to smaller aviary Are you asked so many questions and yet I never see answers only insults a question for all TOC graduates local Republican thought tanks why is it that the wholeness of bestiality is not taught all at once completion in such a way that it is Todd from the higher lights of the high Feil posts make tNET feel like Groundhog to maintain the appearance of truth at a Catholic without teaching what the Church do spook about pods creators and yet not spook Well I have to go mow the lawn it was fun everyone keep scoot well fed Send me a message if you want a searchable version current up to the last time I ran And as for you beware of my no Scott needs Maybe then someone can his simple a good thesis proposal for the How to introduce students to sacred theology at a Catholic without introducing students to all the Dogmas of the a good But with it becomes bizarro groundhogs Bizarro groundhogs day is kinda fun What the hell is going on Is scott still talking about his worthless and  Feil We can get rid of and Adrw Lng can be a better thesis not a a good of a How the TAC Founders decried western academia as a of then established a college in which the Dogmas of the Faith are not How of a the continual already answered question and verification of botness on Or a teaching under the light of the teaching without teaching what the Church the how to have a bunch of people answer you repeatedly on the and ignore That thesis has been written over the past By Scooter oh a good Why Thomas is not the same thing as the got more staying power than ass I am here to get TAC back on almost crying I am laugh so hard in my office at all of this someone needs to come up with a believable rationalization for a grad student in philosophy buying an expensive bottle of wine once a a good of why JPII is worth reading in a Catholic with you Such an obvious Erin and I are just waiting for dinner and I figured no better way to waste There must be an obscure ancient greek term for the joy the eternal return The banality of repeated back and forth but it is all hilarious unto my Adrw Lng is killing Brilliant I is the best evidence for a being controlled by the eternal motion of the celestial spheres that ever or has anyone met him in a good thesis Revelation end with the death of the last a good Missing The role of the TAC tutor in Apostolic a good thesis topic for a student at How to pass theology at TAC without really believing in the infallible As a total outsider I find this discussion quite But could folks clarify for me what the essence of the disagreement Because I think been I am assuming that a lot of Thomas texts are taught at Thomas Aquinas Is the objection that Aquinas is taught not as an authoritative source of but as a philosopher making arguments accessible solely to natural And are there not actually courses in dogmatic theology at would assume that if such courses they would be teaching orthodox doctrine the courses I took at Catholic University of America as an in which the opinions Hans Kung and those of were presented as of equal or more likely with a bias toward the Course Descriptions Thomas Aquinas College The Liberal Arts are first in the order of Syllabus Thomas Aquinas College The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of Thomas Aquinas They are Everyone takes the same for which the syllabus is the Someone help Mike Potemra out he is most very welcome to In the beginning was the Scott who accused TAC of being a heresy petri dish or and so it goes I knew the Bestialy appropriate for Matthew Peterson holy is that ever an ambitious It looks to me more a like a lifetime project than a no way will my lifetime be long enough for Euclid and Archimedes the essence of the discussion here is that Thomas Aquinas College does not teach many of the infallible teachins of the but principally uses five rational as the infallible core of the Faith and sacred instead of what the Church Other than TAC alum beat up people for Mike the reason there is no serious discussion on this point here is that there has been such discussion several times over the last couple I think Scott thinks the fact that we have a course that specifically goes through an exhaustive list of the we teach the proper principals of Sacred Theology and thus really teach Sacred I would counter that TAC generally goes for thoroughness and sometimes we lack something of the breadth that some might John Damascene is both authoritative a and covers all the major the Trinity and the I think that everything been saying about us not regarding the teachings of the Church is invalidated merely by the existence of The Book of Leo to resurrect a sore spot with and Or maybe the exception that proves the Like but not as I think that was way before my I read about it in a college guide while Scott would the problem be solved if TAC added a course systematically going through Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma a similar And your objection to the current practice is that by presenting dogmas only through primary texts TAC ends up historicizing the dogmas instead of teaching them as timeless the Book of Scott ThePeregrine wants to be my Should I Hey Facebook does not allow you to pretend to be The profile that somebody just created called The used a profile photo of mine and was pretending to be For justification about my listing of the major look no further than the While there are many doctrines subordinated to the doctrine of the Trinity and that of the Incarnation in the it is those two doctrines that order the those are the most important doctrines as ordering all the Scott killed Scott The Peregrin What did I all ye who enter into this Help Mike Potemra as regards this debate and TAC and He studied with some of the old jedi masters at and there are plenty of CUA philosophy people on this Plus you never know when you will want yer book reviewed at Plus he traveled across the country on a greyhound The Greyhound Archipelago My idea was to travel from New York to Los Angeles and back entirely by Greyhound with two Adrw has finally figured on behalf of all the best possible response to oh that explains Adrw nonsense posts I I think TAC should include an outlay of Dogma in its freshman theology Dogma is the infallible interpretation of and is the starting point of Catholic This started about a year ago when I was seeking clarification from a few TAC alum about At that three TAC alum Anthony Crifasi and Mikchael claimed that knowledge comes only through but not by Of the certitude of Faith is and so debate ensued and they ended up attacking This has continued in this Some TAC almun in this thread are now posting fake profiles in my name and posting The spirit of the alum is I have spoken with several tutors of TAC who have expressed concern about the direction of the Mike Potemra I think in your last comment presenting dogmas only through primary texts TAC ends up historicizing the dogmas instead of teaching them as timeless you summarized best case pretty But the whole intent of the college is to do the great booksie Their founding document is worth reading as to how they understand Founding Governing Document Thomas Aquinas College This document was first published in as a Matthew in whose last I cannot see I think it would be fair if I can at least see so I can see if it summarizes my as you you seem to be putting words into my My claim is essentially that TAC claims to teach Catholic without introducing its students to the Dogmas of the which are of course the beginning of Catholic  And to be Scott wants the infidels and bound and gagged in the corner of the room not admitted but that might be seen as  Just while we discuss doctrine why you see Mike You blocked have that comment is not particularly But I did not know that Matthew Peterson was referring to Is  that is not see revised above The bound part is Daniel How does the Book of Leo invalidate argument against That claim has me truly a charitable reading of which have been various and not as coherent as so Potemra suggests that Dogma be introduced to and I have questioned how students who do not assent in Faith to the teachings of the Church can get through theology at I think suggestion is what I I think the answer to the second question is that TAC does not teach Catholic sacred I think we can agree on But I do not advocate gagging or restricting as Samantha has Just an admission that theology at TAC does not really teach the Dogmas of the or at least an explanation of how someone who does not assent in faith to the principles of sacred theology can fair in a sacred theology so we are all clear please answer the and please stop misrepresenting my attacking me and posting false profiles of It seems to me the only way a student of sacred who does not believe the first principals of the science in can get through the course would be if the course is not based on those supernatural he could take them as hypotheses and think about their logical Is this why you do not provide students with the supernatural teachings of the Rhetoric not the reduction of sacred theology to But the fact TAC does NOT introduce these supernatural Ironic that Scott would have a problem with Not relevant or helpful I have never impersonated not correct I have never misrepresented I am also curious about the Book of Leo Edward you said you had read about it There may be a few dogmas that studied in especially ones that are recent maintaining seven or eight different profiles is a totally different is an adjective dogmas of the Popish and is a noun principles of TAC does NOT introduce the supernatural principles of the or only very Not that is I do not maintain more than one can any one argue with all of the TAC does not introduce any more than a few and not even really as Dogmas but what this or that Doctor says about a few of That is a big Speaking of bus I love Mike greyhound trip And I love Bill as Future Foundation The Murder Bus Tales The Murder Bus Tales The man sitting next to me Not sure what you are asking If people on the right and left all rode the dog more often and wrote about the world would be a better Good The Zen of Riding the Dog We study the We start with and read the great Doctors of the Church as they formulate the doctrines that will later be summarized in the it is a way of studying theology proportioned to the ratio studiorum of the This was setlled ten jillion comments ago not quite how the faith So says Pope is a way of studying theology proportioned to the ratio studiorum of the This is a fancy way of saying the College does not study Catholic sacred but a heterodox version of according to its own St Augustine is John Thomas then tell the local ordinary all about it and see what like I said last Go for it go for and then tell us how that worked out for you Please do not call me I have no problem disagreeing with But your outlay is Sacred theology begins with what the Church posits as its first its interpretation of This does not come from the Fathers and like bubbles rising in a It may be enriched by but it is entirely The Fathers and Doctors start with Scripture as well so the Fathers and Doctors arent the curioser and curioser i always thought Nietzsche was wrong about the Eternal Recurrence but evidently not and so do the start with but the most of do not start with They start with the infallible interpretation of John of the Teresa of Therese of Samantha a trap Even Aquinas began theology with the infallible interpretation of not his not a an immutable the Roman Church has infallibly its own interpreted Scripture in like two places in like two places Aquinas reads while interpreting it as the Church does and has He start with the I know I Pond Bubbles The infallible over of OVER ARE the infallible interpretation of Good Jehoshaphat you really do not know what you are talking do hahahahaha oh dear the RCC has infallible I And ALL derived from Well then that shuts Trent right No more Victory for the Replying to Jeffrey Bond above for the I was making I guess I was thinking that the Book of Leo shows least some the regard for the teachings of the Church exemplified in the teachings of various But I guess not that good of an argument now that I think of it some you want to pick a fight with Jehoshaphat on this I promise Hahaha Jehoshaphat you just claimed that the Church has only issued its infallible interpretation of Scripture Catholic doctrine in its including over principals that must be either in sense or by is the interpretation of Trent is part of I wish you got more of this at but they are pulling the wool over your hahahahaha wow very good at putting words in not what he said at Daniel if Escalante is a master chess he just gave up his then said Godd night I need some why you explain for Here is what Esc wrote Roman Church has infallibly its own interpreted Scripture in like two places This is Running away right when about to get the rhetorical whipping you so well scroll JA explained the correct use of talk to you true  Esc is confusing ex cathedra with You guys are hillarious and sad at the same Ex Cath has been used like That is But the Church has issued interpretation of Scripture hundreds of times without error and on faith and You guys are so and about so many basic Good I mean it this How Many Infallible Ask a Franciscan August Issue of papal and conciliar teachings pertain to the ordinary teaching authority and are understood as authentic not infallible in the sense of Vatican teaching about but maybe the Catholic who wrote that went to Many thanks to I get it I think this is actually just one instance of the overarching among about the worth of Great Books programs in Defenders say that by presenting the best that has been thought and a school will form its students into proponents of truth and Opponents charge that by presenting so many different all so excellently expressed the schools risk cultivating in their students a radical I know which side is indeed my own case offers evidence for both My undergrad philosophy major offered mostly a Great Books and it did indeed leave me in a state of radical But my despair of philosophy led me to look all the more fervently to If reason is we have all the more cause to be grateful for i recall Aquinas saying something of the that revelation as necessary because the results of reason are difficult to grasp and are in only to a Mike Potemra the fear about skepticism is the reason the TAC curriculum is ordered as it Aristotle and Augustine and Thomas are in the philosophy and theology and get much more time and emphasis than heterodox thinkers meet Regarding everyone being called proud and It might be time for some more haiku heterodox theologians are right with Luther and Calvin getting no love at all The school has an official philosophical and theological to which everything else is pretty well and in which students are very well trained  Scott wants to be true soooo the infallible guidance of the Sola Scriptura not the Catholic angle lets go eat gnocchi Scrott Whineberg can you see  I bet Pater Edmund is rolling over in his answered this claim months  Check his blog there was a whole post on tradition and the unwritten teaching of the inspired by Scott first and sign I thought it said I ordered Thomas Aquinas College inspired this book From Liberal Education as if Truth in which it is Escape from Liberal Education as If Truth Mattered Escape from Liberal Education as If Dishes are now done Relaxation Now wine or vodka  the meal was lovely sadly my sweet children lack true  they all All got plans this Ciao bella Me plans involving angel hair pesto pasta with Lots of catching John Chaucer is not in the same genus as Shakespeare and You cannot compare two things of different Chaucer is perhaps the greatest in his But I see it as Classical Which is not to denigrate would be unhealthy not to have some folk or jokes about kissing arses in aesthetic Daniel Based on the very document Rome issued over discerning I must hold Medjugorje is even kidnapping of the local Scandalous lifestyles of the Admitted lies by the to cover up their pot smoking admit The sinful life of the and the claim that our Lady stands against Church authority in defending these wicked The sheer volume of these and there repetitive and banal when not questionable None of that denies that when a bunch of sincere even though they are acting against the decrees of Rome itself which forbid pilgrimages to be organized promoting said congregate somewhere that there will be a bunch of confessions and the I trust judgment here like I trust his liturgical judgment considering that has involved and tying shoes to balloons is not much at Also you might be interested to know that my local school district and the neighboring one still have sex ed but were targeted by the US Justice department over and rights to use the restroom Transgender The former is a psychological disorder where understood as a social as opposed to biological does not match their actual Transsex often refers to those with physical sometimes when there phenotype does not quite match their genotype with XY and XX males on one things like Kleinefelters on the That such cannot be seen as a physical they are usually need corrective but is promoted as an alternate it is injurious to Haiku heard on campus the other walking behind two freshmen then I was like and then he was like and I said I am surprised the word literally not in the Art could improve on life maybe the last word of the haiku could be And now for something completely Original Takes for Orson Welles Wine Commercial These are some original takes for the legendary I had an old nihilist professor once who was a student of Leo He said there was one perfect nihilist curriculum in the and that was at All other campuses were nihilist in fact even if they muddled it up and of the fact in he TAC was the only curriculum he knew Which sets it apart from the rest of great booksy world but does not resolve the deeper downsides of such programs in which Mike Potemra alludes TAC is plausibly accused of contradicting its own particular method when it actually does pronounce upon right and formally or The order of the curriculum itself involves such as it does Whether the full reasoning behind such determinations about what the truth of so many matters actually is is probably not able to be fully conveyed or argued about by students in four If the danger of the method books and extreme seminar to my mind is graduating students who think they know more than all this stuff than they actually This state of if too can lead to skepticism once But in general the place seems to have a good track record and success amazing it and it is amazing what it consistently But I elevate Shakespeare or Cervantes to As to you do denigrate him I French And also Obscure Audio Orson Welles Outtakes Frozen Peas Orson American writer We sell no before its Orson Welles for Paul Masson Wine The Paul Masson brand is best remembered for its Arguing with Scott makes me feel like Orson in the videos Orson is it you in the depths of your reminds Daniel Lendman Even the French judged California wines Judgment of Paris the free encyclopedia The Paris Wine Tasting of or the Judgment of Please try to think of it like my dear brothers and sisters in The Bible is Word of It is His thinking and His heart and His The Church is the Bride of She speaks with the same heart and She speaks on a variety of and it is always a true version of His voice in When she speaks on faith and it is always She has spoken this hundreds of times through the And this voice is the beginning of because theology is the study of and we know God through his His Word and the echo of His for when the Church says abortion is it is an infallible echo of even though that word abortion is not in the it is implicit in at the first mention of the Baptist in the womb of his and in other places in the Old I am not asking for much from I am not even asking you to present all of the infallible teachings as we do at I am just asking that you present theology to your students in the context of this and God THIS ARGUMENT IS STILL GOING Scott still believes in is the argument that never We discussed and I missed But but What about the great Does Christendom know that two books of Euclid does not a liberal education this is All discussions are As we have just even arguments settled beyond reasonable doubt over comments ago are still open for I I would have loved to have discussed Episcopus locutus causa finita  But what questions do you again the bishops of the diocese have publicized such convincing stuff that I would run not walk from saying the argument was resolved comments really a valid especially when it resolved comments No never thought Medjugorje was This gotta be my favorite thesis topic of How to study sacred theology at without learning what the Church or even believing in Now just being That sounds like a decent tac thesis title I do think the whole has an institutional philosophical and theological topic could lead to an interesting discussion only carried out in a nuanced For Laval Thomists myself I would resist such a formulation as stated above because of the suggested ideological Notwithstanding some divisive disagreements among some individual I would say the school overall has benefited from its founders specific breed of Why does TAC teach so little supernatural and those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith that may be known only by supernatural faith in my Why does TAC teach so little of To omit so much of this yet to claim this is Catholic sacred theology seems like heterodoxy which is You people but cannot answer this simple you so little take who creature in a lurch teachings omit YOU people insult but cannot answer the simple We are taught Church doctrine all the Why on earth do you keep on insisting that we are taught so little of supernatural Because we officially study the Catechism in our there is nothing absurd about anything I am Heterodoxy is the teaching of a version of the Catholic Faith that is in variance with a true version of the the Catholic and its are based largely and essentially on supernatural principles which may be known only by my not In omitting so much of this in its yet claiming that it is completely and fully even under the authority of the seems to present a heterodox version of the Faith and its Why does TAC do What is the reason behind this Since we spend eternity in a supernatural it would seem TAC would want to teach this part of the Why does it at the same say it is truly You will not admit that TAC is not a truly Catholic I admit it because not I make a habit of telling Up with down with I got I am not a You are the troll Why will no one answer my You are avoiding the TAC cannot restore modern Megan look and Everyone should buy my That will set your children not sending them to a fake Catholic college to listen to Victorian men of leisure who are not real The medieval bestiality is made of metaphor and enthymeme and directs the soul Thank Tell us more about this medieval I know you do not like dogma at but that is which leads to a corruption of faith and Is it also not true that Thomas erred in this Dogma due to his adherence to notion of Edward I do not know what you are talking You are profane and vulgar in the face of superior I took classes in rhetoric and served in a political capacity in Washington Thank I say up with Down with TAC heretics who espouse untruths and vulgarities in The crony corruption and destruction is an animal bodies when all the soul parts because of lack of Eating dead animals the fact of finding a corpse and eating at that is profane may I ask you a That was very helpful thank Now why you tell me why TAC does not teach Dogma as it should and calls itself a Catholic Please do not call me I will take that as a yes please tell me the connection between animals and fantasy and mainstream conservative If you refuse to draw a strong connection I will call you a heretic You would do well to buy and read my new Aaron Whitmore said that it guided his mind to The Animal In Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Why do you refuse to talk about your pass and your strange fascination with the creatures of the What is it that you imagine what with your so intricately involved with the municipalities are solved by fantastical How is your position cathic in the face of the fact that there are no in It includes an animal personality test to unlock the secrets of your The Animal In Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of I notice how you invade my question by proposing that I read a whole that is because you know not know question your animal possibility What inspires your inner beast do not tell I wish only to magisterium the heterodox beastly and dogma of proposing municipalities and since the dominions new Finally were onto something Conside rthe cricket who chirps throughout heresy and less than ten percent of the total dogmas uncorrupted of infallible stakings animal animal Seeing what done in this seventh it is very good and I must Goodnight Goodnight Observe and remember dear throughout the internets that Scrott Isak Benedict I think been I think am I Mistah Kurtz he I think Scott is taking his to the level of at this Or casting the blame Scrott messaged me a while ago asking to tag him into the Whoever it is sounds exactly like If not really the person impersonating him is Just as frustrating and irritating as the Honestly I am pretty confused but nevertheless enjoy the unreality of dark I think TNET is about to If it is I will eat my good TNET just took eight tabs of LSD and is tripping out at its reflection in the Queen Mab has crawled into all our ears and noses and is giving us wild At this point sure TNET would be accepted as a novel at some postmodern Could we all get for Proportional to post not worry about the details and work together to make it Time to start post padding you   thief Okay annoying stop  Though not as annoying as haikus That would be an amazing ending to the novel right It is it does not have an At I quite You are all arrogant I impersonate no  I see Big Angry is Now Scrott is in trouble My hat is off to TNET Time for more Who is Big haiku is a fitting form of which is the same as to say intellectual Discuss Is that the first I really hold I like I just like many of the forms it has taken on  Why do my kids know if I am laughing out loud to myself I am reading So if you changed that to haiku is a fitting form of In I think is a healthy And Joshua Kenz is a typical graduate of a school that pretends to be who uses crass metaphors which weaken his  Just popping in to say that fake troll personalities Scott or anyone is not in good I think it is against the honour Code of We should at least be who we all we take Scott Peregrine to task for that Plus he says some pretty wild Just let him say reword them and confuse the Who is Big Why will no one answer this simple Daniel I was thinking specifically of certain aspects of I agree with you  Go to bed Scrott drunk I do not  Then you are not Catholic   Not getting drunk but drinking all things in moderation Maybe that is the he is not consists in a right use of begins with a good glass of or in my case am I have been practically assaulted by a horde of TAC if that is what you mean by taken to And I did nothing You are Have you stopped beating your My book is selling very And I am a That is not This book has been published and praised and you should all read The Animal In Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Have you stopped beating your Why will Scrott not answer this simple Oh now I am wasting time mocking a lampoon of a is a new low I blame the rot gut Scotch I kinda want to read that book no Scott is quite real but the spirit of The Thread shelters all beasties  When the real Scott comes back be rightly ticked All I can say to that is and Grappa to the I agree that we should all be who we But really got no right to be ticked off at anything said here any proved himself time and time again to be incapable of real If you disagree with him in the you are  Very We are becoming immune to  I would actually like to see someone try to defend his position with charity and see what we might learn about TAC and the If one asked the right opening even alumni would expose their frustrations and the short  But for another off to We did that earlier During the first comments More than I think the comment was my really hold that comment should faithful Catholic all move to a less populated state and make it a Catholic What It would have to be less or I vote Not Too cold and And that eternal darkness during part of the year would kill SAD Wyoming All you need to be warm is Why not I was thinking within the American context Also think a place with less than one million persons already I chose Alaska over Wyoming because it is not Austria is landlocked I want to destroy the Austrian nationality through such an influx of Question for What should we make of Gregory letter of to the king of Specifically what he says about the Muslim And the consequence of therefore we ought to have a charity between us and you in ways more special than with other we who believe and confess the one although in a different we who daily praise and venerate the Creator of the ages and governor of this And what would this mean for how we should read Nostra Gregorii VII Romani Pontificis Epistolæ et Diplomata pontificia Yet it seems Muslims believe in God at As Aquinas states Ad tertium dicendum quod credere Deum non convenit infidelibus sub ea ratione qua ponitur actus Non enim credunt Deum esse sub his conditionibus quas fides Et ideo nec vere Deum ut philosophus IX in simplicibus defectus cognitionis est solum in non attingendo ST II II ad quod duplex est una et alia et neutra mundus Deum cognovit Licet enim aliqui Gentilium Deum quantum ad aliqua quae per rationem cognoscibilia ipsum tamen secundum quod est Pater Filii unigeniti et non de qua cognitione loquitur Et inde est quod Apostolus notum idest cognoscibile Sed et si quid speculativa cognitione de Deo hoc erat cum admixtione multorum errorum Unde dicuntur Deum Licet enim in compositis possit partim sciri et partim in simplicibus tamen dum non attinguntur Unde etsi in minimo aliqui errent circa Dei dicuntur eum totaliter Isti ergo non cognoscentes singularem Dei ignorare Commentary on John Romans seems to say the same But how can Aquinas affirm that the philosophers demonstrated that God but then deny that they believe God Tom Sundaram is wonder if he wants a crack at I think one could say that they demonstrated the existence of God notionally understood as cause of created things and but that as this is to be ignorant they demonstrated God in the way that one examining an effect knows what it while not knowing it as one knowing the cause first is able to know the effect it could know God because a prayer was so God must be the sort of thing that answers What that I but it must be This is obviously not to believe in unless one thinks God is composed of many different causal modes determined by his will or intellect of the a kind of bizarre modalism positing infinite active and passive potency in that mean you cannot demonstrate God by natural Argh I understand please tax my poor I need it for Italian With the Summa it could be said they do not in as belief is an act of the virtue of And he mentions that they do not believe those conditions which faith So that seems to suffice to say that they would not have affective since that comes with But he also denies the speculative Here I will translate Knowledge is one speculative and the other And with neither does the world know God For although some of the gentiles knew God in respect to some of the things which are knowable by still they did not know Him insofar as He is the Father of the only begotten and consubstantial of which knowledge our Lord is speaking And hence it is that the Apostle says is the knowable of But if they knew something with speculative knowledge about this was with the admixture of many they are said to be ignorant of For although composite things can be known partly and partly be still simple things when not touched are Whence even if some erred in the least concerning the knowledge of they are said to be totally ignorant of Therefore those not knowing the singular excellence of God are said to be ignorant Roman While it has to do with God as it would seem the which makes them wholly is not because of an insufficiency of the proofs of The Romans passage is interesting Well I GOT what I get is how one who proves God is the First Mover in some way have speculative knowledge of despite that God in Himself is perfectly Who changed the truth of God into a and worshipped and served the creature rather than the who is blessed for commentary on Romans is illustrative here Paul grants that the gentiles had knowledge of and then denies What he is showing is that their ignorance of God is Truths about God were manifested in and they corrupted these In corrupting the it is not that they only partially believed in but were rendered totally ignorant of Yet there are things knowable through creatures about manifested to is why the total ignorance is Now should we say that the word God is being used I think When we say Aristotle showed God exists at the end of the we are saying something true about what is knowable about manifested in His When we actually address and Aquinas explicitly names Aristotle he is totally ignorant of In what I am saying is that there is a real sense where unbelievers wholly fail to in their in another sense they can and have obtained things knowable about through reason It is as if the one and the same argument and proposition showing something knowable about God is only truly believed about God Himself by the Christian but is necessarily corrupted in the context of the So when a Moslem affirms a creator and governor of this they affirm something both true and knowable about The proposition taken is held in common between us and truly touches upon But in the concrete belief of actual such a proposition fails to reach God entirely when uttered by an by holding error about the unbeliever fails totally to touch God in those Just as in whatever was true and knowable in the very concrete existence of such corrrupted by the This does not stop like it stop from talking about what they and we believe about God in But it does mean that those propositions and by extension acts of worship taken concretely mean the same nor do they touch the same Though I guess a consequence is all ignorance has to be a kind of infinite ignorance because He is infinite and Does all of that make sense so Yes it is clearer It seems to me that the claim that Jews and Christians all worship the same God is just the most wanton theological sycophantic Well even though the inclusion of Moslems in Lumen gentium was politically it is still part of the actual Eastern bishops objected to having a whole document on the and after what was a sacrcastic rejoinder about Hindus and Buddhists we got Nostra and then in Lumen Gentium it was objected singling out the so Moslems and more broadly theists were And such language was not as Gregory VII even if that to was politically Seems to me we cannot just reduce it to sycophantic nonsense They acknowledge a a single They profess themselves to hold the faith of With us they adore the only Lumen gentium The third that with us they adore the only would still be problematic Not just in Lumen but also way back in in Gregory Tthis cannot be adoration in the strict sense which is impossible without as has always been taught by the But adorare is sometimes used in a broader Even Aquinas uses it less And actually this is illustrative Talking about the natural virtue of Aquinas speaks about acts of adoration translated if you want to look up the sometimes they use And what is essential to this Recognizing and honoring God under one namely as creator and Moslems recognize a single creator and governor of the This as far as it is In the context of the natural virtue of we may describe the homage they pay under that aspect as The real might be that we are used to hearing adoration or adoratio and veneration for adoratio duliae though that is not the same At least in my experience we associate the English word with a narrower set than the Latin word actually If we understand it as meaning adoration in the sense of the act of the natural virtue of then this a problem at In a little later the Council cites Now the passage is about the unknown It is commonly of that the pagan Greeks did not worship God but what Paul was showing them was our God was the truth they were reaching for when they recognized an aspect of God as creator and Now the statement is a little stronger than but that is because they recognize a single God precisely under the aspect of creator and What was only implicit in the is But it is not claiming that they worship God or certainly not claiming they worship Him in grace and not even claiming acts of the infused virtue of Considering that the passage was intended Nostra aetate being changed not to anger Arabs by favoring Jews least as regard the impetus for the it is stating something positively and It does go beyond Nostra aetate which is merely an iteration of what some major religions believe really any judgment of said But in saying that they adore if we read it in the it saying all that The problem seems to because it is so that we have assumed that this adoration being asserted means adoration in some greater way then the defective and insalutary acts of nature man is capable But then when we connect that to the tenuous way they can be said to believe in namely as to wholly not reach it seems the affirmation is even less then what Lumen gentium actually cites the same Roman passage I So in a way we might read Vatican II as presenting the case only in its positive They in fact recognize certain true things about and also in fact recognize and act on true things that pertain to natural But this is not to deny that in holding error about they the truth of God into a But not in the same degree as the ancient pagans they recognize more of the about Thus they have a real greater which the Church seems of to want to emphasize for prudential without denying the Tom Daniel Lendman I look forward to any critiques from others as Figured this would be controversial enough to light a fire in So have I resolved the Moslems believe in the same And would this also mean that Jews believe in the same God Not just the agnostic Conservative Rabbi I or the pantheistic branch of Hasidim but all excellent You have said in a clear and succinct manner what my mind is on the I am of two minds when it comes to the On the one I am inclined to think that they believe and worship God even as insofar as they believe in true revelation and not more than true In this way it could be said that they worship God much in the same way an ignorant Christian might worship but with less certainty because there is no supernatural gift of On the other I am inclined to think that Jews fall into the same category as Their covenant no longer their sacraments are There is hope is in a Insofar as their beliefs necessitate a rejection of true faith and true religion the Samantha Cohoe one must argue that their beliefs do not I thought we already had this discussion inclined to Michael Beitia I think we did have this discussion But I think Joshua Kenz has given a better and fuller account than what was said I am also more inclined to the position I gave regarding the Chris you should get in on this TNET needs some fresh I understand the jeans but this is before I was making a sexist Being female I assumed you would no about the Denim True my wife found True Religion jeans for my month old meaning that my outfit typically is worth more than my and my outfit put  I think Kenz needs to say more about what it means for belief to It seems to me that there is the possibility if not direct faith in the Trinity they are not at least indirect trust in God through the belief in his covenant as an inalienable That believing will save is not the same as believing in the hope given through the especially where there is not invincible always been troubled by the idea of Can you say more about that it been proved on tNET  I think so that seems more like a case of not ignorance seriously one of those phrases like that is really impossible to Calling Joshua position of seems too but it seems like his arguments But it mean that error about God meant no So not just Jews and but also Orthodox Christians who made mistakes about the thing for the sake of argument that those are It seems like the argument goes too but I see how or You have to be able to ascertain in a particular case for it to be a valid concept There are many anecdotes about perfect or at least effective final being accused on a different thread of fear of black protestors running threatening the safety of white not A of a moral judgement must exist actually at some That there is no inherent contradiction proof that it is actually a Because I expressed the to a friend who lives in the that the protests will continue to stay John other seems to say that rejecting Christ means that one rejects the prophets as well and invincible ignorance is not It is a veiled No EENS still That is all we Christians have infused Joel Faith puts us in contact with regardless of our some qualifications on the last It is not the non violent protests at but the protests are defending violent which has resulted in more violent another shoutout and more protests against police reaction to violent I love eaten at the whistle stop and frequented the Fergusson The cops there do tend to over respond to minor offenses get pulled over if you go mph over the speed But all of Louis is stupid like due to having cities that are I think crime would go down if that region would incorporate into fewer cities and reduce the number of individual police but if I have faith in ox it mean that in contact with if my of God is so am I really in contact with one of the all time best senior thesis titles TO THE A summary of the complete Ronald McArthur Lecture Series to the students of by Andrw As for are they not waiting for the Son of Is the trinity not within reach upon recognition of Christ and Or are hardened hearts I think way oversimplifying to say that the protests are defending violent That might seem to be the case in this particular but the offense goes much deeper than This is a good one PART IS GREATER THAN THE How the Church has really only said two infallible things over the past couple thousand by Johesefat I think right about though Yeah why is Fergusson its own Did you know the hilton hotel is in a city of people and only yards racist I Here is a good one Accomplishing what Never Will Be A thesis by Scott Weinberg I love the smell of TNET in the the civil war started in Louis with the deed scott case and the racism is St I could never live there due to the The thing so here that fairly easy to avoid if a white high school did you go Louis code for determining your gone into areas that I got one a credible exegesis of talking about doctrine the in We live in a rare fairly racially mixed and go to an intentionally racially integrated but just because sort of hipster and choose those sorts of Missouri is still populated with Come to the Free State of I think about the racially integrated part of the equation until I got here and unusual in Louis My friend lived in the heart of For the cheap Bushwackers have always lacked Jayhawkers are it is the it is weird actually I just mean we like things that certain segments of our generation who might be hipsters also tend to like on that we can California is California still playing out Jim Crow era politics the way Louis What is weird about or Chicago Chicago is the death right there is nothing weird about I got that jerk philosopher to apologize for accusing me of white lady So I win facebook not Slay some trolls first Chicago has done more than Detroit to survive depends on where in I say ca I just want to know what you think is I love only wandered around Racine west of and of course the downtown area try Gnocchi this Roll in lite olive oil with a little grated Top with crushed tomatoes heated very quickly in stainless with a bit of salt and a tiny bit of Sprinkle with fresh Serve with dark green romaine I think the chauvinistic entitlement ideology generated from Hollywood is The past couple of Governors have been very and I certainly think the gaia nature worship is quite weird What people struggle understanding about California is There are only SoCal of San Sacramento of and the North in the wasteland north of That explains  Actors are waiters in The rest of the country does not see that They just see the You know enough you It is like a school Yeah I acted but now I do Letter in the local paper from this morning Hollywood fuels chauvinistic entitlement it is glorified on TV and the When people visit ca I used to drive them through Hollywood and they were shocked to see an industrial With warehouses of movie Entitled to No different from any other except the weather is Totally entitled to sunshine Although there is Excess in the virtue of no Most film and tv is done in Canada due to tax evasion and avoiding the With a population in the southern region of it is times the people of For Michael Beitia all Bolins per Joshua glorious story METALLICA METALLICA WITH THE AWESOME STUDIO VERSION OF California also has ten times the number of electoral votes as liberalism owns so much of the current The vast majority of Kansans live according to Christian the most populous contains more people than the least populous states Not if they fully magisterium the magisterial teachings according to first principal principles of And benefit from California subsidies and tax If we put corn into the They just teach what the Church teaches at the most Catholic little college in Santa Thank you CA for the corn Lol But to hell with your porn My family is from cloud county  Thanks to the that all comes from Russia Migrant You move to where the jobs If they are in California you move but if they are elsewhere you move there Especially if from Mexico or Costa Nothing wrong with being from They are sovereign but a lot of people apparently just want to live If you went to you would The boarder towns live on squaller If you went to you might want to leave When my parents took me there as a child I cried for the suffering you were The Mexican people are creating jobs where ever they Should we let them all or should we help their government help their own You have not seen miles and miles of cardboard homes and people living in piles of Let them Let them Make them No reason not They create Fill out a sheet with personal Background Welcome to the United They need to be they start very Most go back to Mexico for medical since medical care is cheaper there I have friends that go to Mexico for major operations for that reason The whole citizenship process should take a week and cost I have seen cardboard homes in The USA admits more immigrants and refugees each year than all the other nations of the world Is that miles from your current Can you drive there in an haiti is a long way from You seem to be advocating for an open If you had that level of poverty in your you would Are you saying I do not I am in favor of an open Closed borders are for tyrants And are I worked homeland Who do you think help design the systems were Except maybe for Citizenship presupposes the nation of your Not your economic I think such open border liberalism is a discrimination against Scott you just said the most statement I guess you are a member of the I think you are discriminating against me Boo hoo How about if we design a nation where everything is I have mine in Kansas and everyone should be like let me give you some of my so we can be Why would I go Get a cushy government t no speakers at So things are you can have Live on the back of I guess I am one of the I have a lovely wife and we have six beautiful I live on the back of ever had a government Michael here I thought you were a Maybe all immigrants should get government jobs and live on a Maybe in the Camus but here at I have no I served the good people of South just down the road from Christendom That was an on the backs of taxpayers Public service is an or a gravy train It There is a lot of OIG does not always come Expanding the US south may be an but we should probably expand north as well The queen need Canada agree with part of the annex Canada if you are going to grant everyone why even make them Just pay them to be gotta They are migrating for Not for government They create If you have ever driven on a you have lived off the backs of The whole distinction between and is foolish in the Citizenship has other Mexicans are predominately not Isis I was just chiding Scott for immigrating from Canada and holding a string of government jobs and not working in private If Republicans go onto the path to track and off the did something they would win elections for a long Fun discussion topic the mild absurdity of the Christendom dress code for I know if tacers should throw stones in that particular glass Dress codes for women are impossibly and a pointless exercise in I was part of the Administrative Team for the High School I worked and the Team decided that the women teachers of the school should get together and decide on their own dress The only thing that the principal stipulated he was asked is that he did not think capris were The whole thing ended up FUBAR Angry female high school teachers are Lol And capris are Dress code discussions are like this thread in some But I used to try to hide whenever they eternally I prefer to call them Schpantz And that dress is That Metallica is so decadent Joel like lowbrow century Wagner at we have Speak Like James Hetfield Give Orion a listen seriously and change your mind METALLICA METALLICA WITH THE AWESOME STUDIO VERSION OF the exact link I posted I hate From Betelgeuse to the smallest star I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate why I posted the to torment What have I done to you now we need cause to torment others on  Some of us who take tNET more wait not even I can type Former am quite familiar with And Master of Puppets is as decadent as the genre which is a compliment compared to the What makes it I generally cannot stand but have a bit of a soft spot for early the idea of Kenz blasting out Metallica to get even with his is innately National Cyber Security Awareness Month Homeland Security The cyber threat has become one of the most USAJOBS The Federal Official Jobs Site This is a United States Office of Personnel Eric an epic bender of moral abuse of persons and a celebration of Of course fans would claim an attempt at like But like Metallica fails to distance themselves from the has anyone been to a metal Chaos Catholic school dress code discussions as regards modesty Linda Blair Why is a dumb question John stupid statement Christendom has standard east coast business attire for the national capital Coat and tie is And a tendentious question surprised they have something as ridiculous as academic gowns and caps and I am talking about the actual discussions in those Of course it is not always FUS has the only legitimate dress code for a Dress defines the Dress accordingly to who you want to cap and gowns would be Not the throw away Only by choice Here is a fascinating article having nothing to do dress codes or The Best Dustin Curtis When I got back to San Francisco after a three month trip to Southeast Asia last I had no I very suspicious of musical criticism about music which has standards extrinsic to the music You can pick other songs but the purely instrumental work decadent any more than they are You may be able to talk about minor vs major keys as being or but I have a problem calling something decadent or If the case then Beethoven is pretty damned If you want anger go with the Melvins or Bad They do it Michael Reverend Horton Oh there are certainly angrier bands than I also think the claim that Master of Puppets is angry decadence is so obvious it borders on I come on Just listen to Beethoven and It should be self evident to all that both are equally Ok now is when we all drop our arguments and beat up on Did I spell decadent I strongly disagree with the claim that instrumental works All as is Music imitates the soul and specific songs musically imitate specific states of the  Where do our fashions come from and what does it say about who we want to The instrumental piece I posted is more tonal than In most rock music is quite The decadent part would be the and the loud electronic But when it comes to metal have much of a gets I I trust you were being facetious about the Beethoven Metallica thing Tonality is not the only measure of good I just wanted to address that one I love that question John The Christendom dress code is so specific in guidelines for I seek to rectify Suggested additions to Christendom dress Dress shirts must be light in Dark red and dark green shirts are for midwestern teenage dances at the grange Grown men with actual professional jobs do not wear dark colored Men shall wear their pants at the Your gut is not the Pull your pants No Wearing a goatee makes you greatest They been considered cool or stylish since Your pants should end at the top of your Are your pants bunching up around your If you are a ties should not have Disney characters or other characters from comic is my tie If please change Men shall expose their feet and legs to the sun at least minutes per If your feet are pasty and damp in you are in violation of the dress No shoes with square If this requires an you will be expelled No black dress In the world of black dress pants do not Here is who wears black dress hicks who bought a wedding outfit at and no one If you wish to be a good judge of listen to Mozart hours on and daily for a once your soul is ordered you might be able to judge other music Fashion by its nature is temporal and thoroughly It is and shape and compliments the human The Christendom Dress code is fairly The specifics are merely given as but this Kochel fellow was a prolific Kochel was so All his pieces by do you like Does John Cale Brian Eno Spinning Away Favorite Mozart Mine might be the Piano Concerto in d only I heard it most I would be loathe to point to but this duet always makes my heart Mozart La Clemenza Di Tito perdona al primo affetto Gorgeous Tito Eric Tappy Sesto Tatiana I and arty college guys in the liked A beautiful production as I only read the summer dress It gives me heeby And I love skirts and dresses ahem not meaning that I No I did not like that spinning away song Christendom students lined up for job of measuring the distance from the collar bone to the top of the What about The Hut of Baba Great Gates of Kiev Lake and From at an Lake But I love white dress I was going to if wearing a white linen Measuring distances and mandating shapeless clothing is very Mad Old school socks match the belt and shoes Big guys can wear double breasted jackets not joking when I say that those rules are far more valuable that the senseless puritanism in the actual dress vests are right and pocket square should not match will get you way farther in life than spaghetti Your facile Christendom bashing is a Fact of the matter anything called past is Senseless Puritanism is standard in New Jansenism is standard at small Catholic I stayed at Christendom for a week and saw every rule in that manual I had flashes of certain people in my past at the dress code that almost sent me into a No that is not whom I want my children to But I have a problem with length Its an interesting Jeff mentioned a democratic spirit and one reason folks get The manual is for puritanical If I ever start a small Catholic the dress code will know it when we see You have years to teach your children and instruct them and form I will take Jansenism over Jansenism Hahaha There are other There is nothing unreasonable about per There is nothing worse than is seen some horrible ties and suits worn by people that thought wearing a suit is more appropriate for business then they wore a suit that was clearly years with an printed silk tie and with formally appropriate to the dignity of the No no no nothing you might wear on the beach in the Definitely no If you wear birkenstocks with socks you will be expelled I used to tell the headmistress at my former Ill take a clean polo shirt and shorts over a ratty stained dress shirt and patched pants any day of the Why do we keep bashing No no uggs I casual sandals Samantha Cohoe the one heresy for orthodox  Jansenism Are there really any  no flip flops This is for where is supposed to be the driving principle of the dress code Daniel decadent the John not But its emanations and penumbras are floating around certain These dress codes are less about and more about nostalgia for suburban When you put your year old kid in a coat and tie for he look formal or He looks I realize that for some that is not a bug but a Is the denim dress still a popular habit at There were still some jumper wearers in my time They were certainly not the majority I do not doubt that formailty and modesty are confused with mandated frumpiness An updated WASP dress Which is because jumper frumpiness is not formal at I was one of the many many men at TAC who proved that one could follow every rule of the dress code and look occasionally like a There is a generation of devout Catholics trying to recreate the life their parents had in suburban Pittsburgh that seen in old scrapbooks and home One of the vast majority of the But everyone focused on on the other side of I suppose a giant hoodie and a ratty jean skirt is technically modest but far from When it gets cold at of clothing happens The modesty focus is Caused all kinds of modesty is poorly naturally Modesty is a personal If you force someone into a long you have not made them only forced them into a facsimile of The driving principle for the dress code at TAC is and that is how it should The TAC dress code was also drafted by There were even some men at TAC who would button the top button of the shirt and wear There are ways in which the dress code ought be in my Let us wear as long we are internally and The TAC Dress Code misses formality by a But that does not mean that it is bad that it been to formal Formal events are friends of and I am here to tell you that students at TAC do not look They looks like kids who hang a tie on their door We had a modesty discussion comments and I think I made Joshua Kenz angry with my those formal events are veritable freak The best definition of modesty is that one attracts the right amount and right kind of attention to Like the new It is more easily defined Not drawing undue attention to I had a deal with the head prefect Junior year that I would not wear my dress code East German paratrooper if he lighten up about my code It was the not the letter Dudes complaining about women stretching out before they go for a First few weeks of school the prefects told us this complaint had been made it was being I was so Why is that a in any wait a minute why are you staring at incredible rude and boorish and could even be Where are you staring at them from answer Under this definition of I hold coincides with it becomes manifest that jumpers are in fact not because they become part of Matthew veritable freak But that is often misunderstood by not taking a large enough poll of The freak show is the Get your freak on I am inclined to agree with you about the lack of formality at coming from a large public high school and a dress code struck me as the weirdest thing at TAC when I first got I think that should be Modesty is the virtue of temperance as it relates to how we interact with others in I too came from a large public school in the People whose modesty you should be concerned You and your Dudes worrying about modesty is sorry to say but I mean people find this REALLY peeping tom The only people who take it seriously when guys start talking about modesty are other dudes like Because as soon as you hear that comment you know damn well it is not that some brazen strumpets were getting their freak on in front of the prying eyes of campus before jogging around like Pamela Anderson on it sounded more like some creepy dudes were passing the It about being Formal is not that definition is too That could also belong to the virtue that is opposite to the vice of ISIS is very concerned about the modesty of Although I kind of like the freak It makes everything so festive and hilarious in a gypsy kind of way for me every time I I agree with Daniel you remember the visitor sibling of a TAC I our senior who was dressed in a neon lime green the hat and the pantaloons and the stockings and the buckle McGarry is my this dude really Gypsies are At on TV they Joel Some are attracted by the some by the show TAC attracts strange Like Master of the it the Matthew it is The TAC lecture series is a formal and students should dress They should all wear surplus choir because the lecture series is always preaching to the Of if you go to a normal spandex workout undies to class is a part of everyday not ideal Jeff Come for the stay for the That was my I tell I certainly go to a private liberal arts college for the hot I had to go swap to Penn State just to get Scott you go to many lectures did  that is so Gas station attendants in the wear neckties because they were formal or They wore them because that was just what people has a specific It means black or white tie in the evening and during the A suit is not There was that other who wore robes and did interpretive Eventually left with men in white coats and a police You are right about Though formal now has a range of you need to look up modesty in the You may be John I Many One of the tutors I said way I dressing is an act of not No just seen this thread so many times that the peer pressure got to I want to be a part of it even if I have nothing to is symptomatic of so many of my and This is part of the Christendom dress TAC can use it if you Purity requires an integral part of Modesty protects the intimate center of the It means refusing to unveil what should remain It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their It encourages patience and moderation in loving it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be Modesty is It inspires choice of It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy It is There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the It for against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human David Do you have any tenure track positions open for us up in the north John this is what I am thinking lack of moderation occurs in two in comparison with the customs of those among whom one wherefore Augustine says offenses which are contrary to the customs of are to be avoided according to the customs generally so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of whether citizen or For any which harmonizeth not with its is Not this But always on the qui so let you listening to people talking about dress code is almost as creepy as Chesterton We were talking about Are people talking about it at your Michael Joel Not once I got my hands on if As Matthew and I said there is nothing wrong with dress per they just need to be handled more prudently than they Were any TAC alum around when Master of the Universe came to reflecting back to earlier points made about dress and the fact that Chesterton is hella creepy when he talks about women everyone attack Chesterton  I was there when the stretching complaint was Interesting that women had to be chided when nothing was said about the behavior of the And get me started on the sleeveless part of the dress apparently men get aroused at the sight of an this about the sleeveless part of the dress a I still like quit getting so I was being I dig So you were being like a I dig with shovels Without arms would be Good to I sing of and a man of without elbows I would spill beer all over myself If you think women stretching before a workout is something to be worried you are what my Grandma Gigliotti would have called real Elbows are usefull in Is that an old Italian God gave us elbows so we could dribble through nice cherry What are the species of modesty according to I was wrong Elbows are like the middle of a John here we are speaking only of I cherry I just speak and only make distinctions when I It is a fault of And I am serious that it is a curious about master of the universe sounds like a fun dude what are we talking about as lost as a Christendom grad at a theology Help me convince year olds that The Illiad is a great If you cherry pick from the elbows of your syllogism are Tell me why I change my profile picture so Has Scott been taken over by Scrott  I was speaking more generally Q And Aquinas qualifies the Augustine quote you it confuses me Help me convince Homeschooled year olds that if they like the ILliad they should give it more chances and that it is a great book because of what it haha tell them to skip the list of well most of them skipped the whole thing at this point I Remember When the Braden family adopted Waldstien family sorry pater Pater but Cowboys dressed as alpine yodelers is a true expression of freedom of dress  It sounds like it might be too late to focus on the quarrel between Agamemnon and But if get them to consider when they have been wronged by someone in authority who know what he is I see the posts of several Weinberg It just shows you how depraved TACers have The college was a lot better in the The quality of student has declined so and nothing in the per to keep it Spaceman found that a pretty tough sell as a this slave that I stole from this town I razed to the ground has been taken from Would I be Hard to Achilles the most relatable is what just poking fun at I hardly think a sign of The Church needs to be more modest I do not know what you were taught growing but I think of someone behind their back falls into told people to to on this No moral high ground for TAC hit its high point in the year when I told Edward Langley to go to hell I did so to his not behind his and my statement was tNET is the Kansas of moral high I understand your I have to get to but I would be glad to trade thoughts on this But if you get them to identify with there is no If you can get them to identify with then you next have to get them to recognize the psychological motivations of Achilles refusing to accept And the rest is down hill from And you are hardly an expert on faith and if you know what I Scott has learned to is wrong when other people do it is okay when I quoth the Perescott Oh I say what you meant not Condemning someone to an eternity of torture is a special kind of high how many times have you brought me up behind my back cough cough I did not condemn Ed Langley to an eternity of not not you See Translation I know what you just a hypocritical beast from a modern how am I a I talk trash all the in around the below See to Seems like some sort of hope you die and are sent to a place of eternal damnation and but I might be misreading I just that you all get into it like Just leave Scott be and let him say Poke the troll in the eye or feed him and you awaken the beast I mean you do not assent to infallible Catholic teaching on morals and So you are not a credible source for lessons about thanks for spelling that So No I find anyone who believes in infallibility of humans to be Who is this Master of the universe what was the Book of Is it but as the eternal return spirals do the circles get Seems we were just What happens in the distance when we hit point Posted without Narcissistic personality disorder Definition Diseases and Conditions Mayo Clinic Narcissistic personality disorder to John does not signify hope you die and are sent to a place of eternal damnation and What does it literally Is hell a place I can visit for a nice Can I arrive to literally means suffer and repent for your I though you were a I would think that might be better said as to You need a remedial lesson on what means Feil You could continue to encourage people to ignore could just take care of the once and for Hush Catherine Joliat tNET can hear narcissists have a deep need for not Stop using big words Clearly Feil Samantha Cohoe Do you seriously think adding something to the I thought you mean that Matthew Peterson should delete tNET again I know how to make a Feil Those of us who only have time to duck in here and there would prefer not to have to scroll through posts of his Matthew these people are interested in your expertise in go with Why do you think you fell the need to make fell the The thing to has a literal You might plausibly claim you did not mean it but you cannot claim the literal meaning is something other than the literal meaning I just had a genuine flashback of when Scott and I had this very convesation because he told me or someone perhaps Beitia to to Feil And I may have been Matthew no need to delete the Just unfriend the boil on its proverbial i I can see how a would use it as a figure of but my like practically summoning the going to go read Lila Later what kin of metaphor do You also seemed concerned with the mistakes of Why is Do you want to call attention to your own Tell me Do my mistakes interest Do they bother making good progress To say I am a boil is a It is not The medical tests are still TROLL I was just wondering what you meant by fell the  Scott know how to speak or read I It was a How do you feel about Does that make you feel okay with Scott fell literal with his mighty Do you want to talk more about why you feel a need for follow that Do you feel hat you I fell a need to make I jst you have not please to understood enthymemetic metaphor with insofar as progress has been made Persuasive metaphor is easier to but if you would like to talk about go Our time is pick this up during your next How much do I owe Walk tall and carry a persuasive The only there apey we can attest is the flagrace of tel fel have yoo not understanding beasts in bookish May I mamoo dogface to the banana what the hell are you talking What is the virtue of modesty insofar as it can be exercised on in its species of studiousness and moderation of Daniel I thought we were speaking Greg this thread needs an official Thank One thing this thread will not Therapy may help us  It is beyond help I believe you just said what the Buried deep we have a bunch of personality tests and an incomplete discussion of Like the darting Swallow tossed in An undeserved curse will not Do people change based on logic and Why Are We Morbidly My My Gabriel you want to discuss and the work of Harry Jaffa in one may I suggest this tNET is totally a pile of People change their mind when they are confronted with a daily dose of emotional pain because the masses around them ridicule their Logic has little to no bearing on Sometimes TNET goes places I cannot that a laden or unladen A European it depends what you mean by An act of reason leads us to knew which is a But in terms of what we this is governed by what we believe A belief in certain things governs our The reward of changing opinion must be higher than the cost of changing This is rarely the People throw good after bad in order to keep their Belief can be very Sometimes it is reinforced by instead of Or the illusion of If Jaffa were a pro what would be his stage Or the obstinant denial of Truth was never meant to be The false illusion of infallibility is very But a true understanding of what the Church teaches is water in the As opposed to True A true understanding would have us stoning gay people or something to that As opposed to what the Church truly How Actions punishable by death in the Old Testament RationalWiki The Christian Old Testament for all That was over years I meant Is there truth or not I know truth changed to fit The Bible is etenal and the interpretation of the Bible is what is Except for that Mormon it was infallible and infallible and since that it both are means truth is what we say it I think not up to this true believer Your mojo is  If not willing to stone a gay person or I question your belief in TROLL Can we brick someone to or do we need to stone sometimes sunlight shines in and then the trolls are Burning or There is to be no God made stones He make Can we brick besides You can wipe out a town if more than of them are not Christian or Even the Jews and Catholics that live Do we have to wipe Can we hose them off You might be able to brick then because stones could run I think a any means a slippery Not if they have Then God has already taken control of getting killed at that Are you saying Ebola is like God Got is into plagues and floods He gave us stones and So when people die in natural God is killing I thought this was accepted universally as God called them God has his reasons for letting planes fall out of the For one you pray enough to keep it Shut up ruining homosexuality creates a lot of natural Bring your A game pick the Not a just waiting for someone to say sounds RIDICULOUS when YOU say Could we talk about the As you I know the animals are near and dear to Saint John Chrysostom said we should be gentle with animals because we share the same Except And Pretty sure God created mauling to get that point He said that a wild bear will rarely harm a but a bad person will readily harm another so consider the which labors long hours never for itself but always in service of I would rather consider the Unfriend these idiotic When I wonder why never never been so We would lie when we say you know we all love never never been so nowhere Very Christian of you As he was walking along the some boys came out of the town and jeered at out of they out of He turned looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled of the Kings The Bear can be a rough and tumble Who care for in the Practice and embrace And never mock a prophet or a Consider the Lilies of the More fair than Solomon in all his But who is clothed brightly as the Our when this sojourning is you can be an idiot OR a but you be That would be That makes a lot of Who would Jesus We start picking and choosing which trolls to allow on can done my duty to pull tNET flood and ignore is the way to someone Hey so is Amazon reading the article you Adrw Lng I they love their customers but seem to not care about the workers producing the things the customers so easy to hate the companies that despise their Roses fall from heaven in a Because Our Lady loves the Little And so our true devotion Sending forth this shower of heavenly  The one truly disturbing thing is that Bezos thinks what doing is a future historical certainty that is really You see it a lot in modern politics As if we are all just caught in a tide of progress and nothing that can be done for the poor humans who have a I like But this similar to a lot of companies that care about customers not the people who produce for them Bezos reminds me of Ford Sorry got friends who live in Shaw coming to stay the weekend and Lila to be out this ten minutes from exiting Refugees from one neighborhood Yeah Michael Beitia this is similar to a lot of At some point in the production require very much labor by and then I wonder what our economy will look if our society collapse from the Or you the reason why the iPhone is hand assembled is because they efficiently automate it just mindless and repetitive but human nonetheless Kind of like Edna Vincent Millay Alexander Pope Amazon Prime paid for itself about a dozen times Free day thank This is my chance to pass So about that is mostly about no not about shameless and Augustine is quoted and qualifies that quote in the reply to objection I believe he is again I see anything that contradicts my apparel should be consistent with the estate of the according to the general I disagree with Daniel Lendman over weird dress being immodest quite agree on that Though the community context at TAC may be as opposed to say going to Ventura in such garb at a school that accepts and barely notices such maybe it is not that I disagreed with him about absolute principles of And I quoted Pius XII who also disagreed with though both the my pal the Pope and I would concede that determining those exact lines between what custom dictates in modesty and what is absolute is a tricky So it would be a bit much to insist that the details in the dress code pushed by the Vatican under Benedict XV and Pius XI should be adhered to in specifica dress cannot be called modest that drops down more than two fingers below the I still think the distinction between indecent and less becoming is a Where indecent is what is not allowable and less becoming versus more becoming is a matter of state and As an example of Church condemned bracae and bikinis as always the bounds observed by good and I still have issues with the absolute because such things seem impossibly difficult to define and another good thesis THE why going to the Church for a definition of a virtue makes more sense than going to CCC Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their It encourages patience and moderation in loving it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be Modesty is It inspires choice of It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy It is WRT to my Jews believe in aside that even are or even atheists is all mixed the passage from Aquinas that denies both speculative and affective knowledge is a commentary on this passage in John the world does not know But Christ also says if you deny you deny the And He tells the Jews that they do not believe in the since they believe in such a custom is not to be in article women should not dress like another good thesis DOGMA JUST RAN OVER MY EQUILATERAL Why learning the first principles of sacred theology are more important than learning the first principles of That mean there A bikini is immodest you know what I mean by A monokini all the more How short can a skirt be before even custom cannot allow That I grant you is Pius XII was clear both on the existence of absolutes and that they were hard to Here is another great thesis ERRORS IN JUDGMENT or Why the Catechism of the Catholic though a good is insufficient for determining Church Positions on All Doctrinal Sub title might be too is such a custom is not to be yet can render it not that would indicate that such a practice is not absolutely but would be what I have been trying to throw into the And perhaps less becoming to the degree that it is justified to lament said custom where it But I was more interested in the other species of modesty Exemplum of Predestination Too and too Even the one mention of it is misleading footnotes clear it but seem to contradict the English phrasing at first So is Amazon evil for free shipping tying this all back They are at least materially cooperating the seller is just using the Amazon but formally cooperating if they are the seller a custom not to be commended is sinful in itself but the custom mitigates guilt or removes Joshua for your The Catechism is part of the official teaching in the sense that it was SUGGESTED by a Synod of requested by the Holy prepared and revised by bishops and promulgated by the Holy Father as part of his ORDINARY also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn USCCB is so Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of The term the USCCB uses when defining a major catechism is that it is a of the when speaking on faith and is always Also the USCCB did not write the The Vatican When discussing theology and the catechism of the it would probably be helpful if TAC students had studied to begin Daniel Lendman what Scott is trying to say is that he quoted directly from the Deposit of Faith and because you are from cannot understand that writing is only part of that Deposit insofar as the Church has decided to include Ratzinger said very clearly that the authority of any teaching in the CCC is the authority it had before the no more or less There are even parts that quite It is hard to The same thing can be said of the Roman and you can see it clearly in texts that are contradictory between the two as on holy But dressing worse than a harlot is maybe not And Aquinas indicates that men are bound by the Banana peels are not modest I understand Deposit of Faith I just cut and pasted from the Ordinary magisterial teachings are not Even with regard to faith and We are bound by filial piety to follow the teachings of our bishops as though unless we have compelling reason not Yes they are your interpretation is Very clearly Aquinas is nodding to the role of custom in determining what is Custom itself affects what is modest Something may not be preferable without being And we are bound to follow them and to give our assent to No the Catechism is a reflection of the Otherwise you would be able to find an error in The Deposit is the beginning of sacred does not mean that the catechism is a sort of as its opponents would like to insinuate in order to cast suspicion on its as a danger to the liberty of What significance the Catechism really holds for the common exercise of teaching in the Church may be learned by reading the Apostolic Constitution Fidei with which the Pope promulgated it on October thirty years after the opening of the Second Vatican acknowledge it as a valid and legitimate tool in the service of ecclesiastical as a sure norm for instruction in the The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the Since it transmits what the Church whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic pg Can Scott see Just in does not mean that the catechism is a sort of as its opponents would like to insinuate in order to cast suspicion on its as a danger to the liberty of What significance the Catechism really holds for the common exercise of teaching in the Church may be learned by reading the Apostolic Constitution Fidei with which the Pope promulgated it on October thirty years after the opening of the Second Vatican acknowledge it as a valid and legitimate tool in the service of ecclesiastical as a sure norm for instruction in the The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the Since it transmits what the Church whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic pg One of the professors here at the ITI helped write the She is always talking about how poorly worded parts of it and misleading in other thanks for that I think The example of headcovering is of bad He seems to say that dressing like a harlot is always That is clear especially in article AND what he is mostly addressing is OSTENTATIOUSNESS of another great Why the infallible Magisterium is more accurate than all the other books they read at of is something TAC guys should complain about in Here is another good PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE THESIS TITLES AS A MEANS FOR COPING WITH ERROR By the John did not go to another good OF INVERSE Why you have to keep trying to prove when you deny things like the infallibility of the ordinary I remember comments or when John thought were treating a one He thought it reflected poorly on TAC at the can you distinguish between the ordinary and extraordinary  Most sane people agree it is unfair for three dozen TAC alum to attack one Aquinas on modesty focused on shameless very informative and thought But I am more interested in the other species of modesty beginning at question actually blocked and yet I can tell what saying from the And for the fact that probably posted about comments prior saying more or less the same interesting to me is that Scott says he knows the teaching of the but argued for heretical positions that were condemned by the Church some comments He even assented to the very language used in those And yet he wants to tell everyone else what the Church I actually think the Catechism expresses the whole thing more eloquently that They even use a And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecumenical or in the ex cathedra teaching of the at in some definite formula such as the Athanasian for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium and confine our attention to ecumenical councils and the while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecumenical or in the ex cathedra teaching of the at in some definite formula such as the Athanasian for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium and confine our attention to ecumenical councils and the CATHOLIC Infallibility In exemption or immunity from liability to error or in particular in theological the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ by a special Divine preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith Oh wait not actually just more of the same invincible ignorance come to expect from glad you find that interesting I think I ever said I know the teaching of the I do know I studied it Sorry you are so mad at God This is not Max as I have seen Max I have even seen Max facebook  No Scott cannot see my comments I did not think that was that interesting Thanks for the Invincible ignorance is an effect of when you do not study For like when TAC does not study I am sorry that you felt like you were ganged up cool Jump in a But you do kind of invite that kind of Here take your side for a while so you feel so picked I think a lot of people felt like that Look the teaching of the Church is Please so why you back off the Catechism and just realize you never read it at MAX IS NOT REPRESENTING MY You know what not a real and now got someone on your  We had a CCC study group at TAC when I was there NOTICE TO see Well you be so picky about allies when you make You really should accept the I have fb friends And even more real How many do you Anyway back to helping I got your back Thanks anyway Not  No I let you feel victimized You need someone on your be I like your last point about the belief of You be picked on by dozen TAC just not a fair You could maybe take dozen tops with your giant be you Look if you want the but complain that on your I think this is the next president of the United Rand Paul Visits Ferguson Ahead of Fresh Protests Paul is the first potential contender to visit the city Precisely because of this kind of I would be okay with that Daniel Rand too but I think the medicine we need right With Gute Augustine you here Augustine is a Doctor of the This is what the Church The Church also says Thomas is the Angelic The Church says So throw out and start a and read just because this is what the Church is telling us to Auf Buenos I think my impression of you is better than your impression of no but maybe impressions your give you I think Aquinas sets forth all one needs for prudence to judge It is interesting that for women and its drab for we have neither fashion nor As to the other three species of they seem long And it is strange they all have the same Interesting that Pius marks out pride and curiousity as the root sins of How are moderation in speech and and modesty in dress all one would dressing in head to toe a la House on the then be immodest for drawing attention to falling under the heading John your inquisitiveness betrays your You are too prideful to think that you should  Aquinas points that underdressing can be The ostentation of Aquinas has ten questions on modesty and we focus on a part only of the last Obssessed with hem lengths and with hem lengths and the modern I disagree He begins with the most internal aspect and ends with the most We however hardly begin or so it And we go about it ARe those articles online The Summa is online have you listened to sermons sensus on He has a real good section on decorum and exterior dress and the principle that the cultural custom which is being is immodest also gives a very for traditionalist examination of the issue of women wearing noting the role of custom I know online Kenz right complete oeuvre in about as thorough a collection of English translations as can be found many with the Corpus Thomisticum ENRIQUE ALARCÓN Really we should just go back to wearing and hence get the experience of girding our loins and all I know Francis de Sales is not the but consider the not the company of immodest they have poison in their eyes and in their like On the keep company with the chaste and often meditate upon and read holy for the word of God is and makes those also chaste that delight in Francis de Introduction to a Devout Part Chapter A helpful How to Gird Up Your An Illustrated Guide If read the then probably But the sound is gone on my I love Ripperger Minds in a rut travel along the same Great minds think alike if you want to feel better about yourself My tNET friends are as scarce as Dogma in a TAC theology I used to scandalize people at TAC with encouraging this sermon of his Smoking Seminars were all I just got a check from a book I cannot tell you how thrilled I am to be paid for writing about the things we all care most The Blessed Book of Beasts Jonathan Scott Hot Off The Large Softcover Book of In this wonderful blessed you will learn from Jeff I could not get in my building and none of the computers were Did you have anything to do with The only problem with the health benefits from smoking that the health detriments are pretty big Can be pretty cigar once in a or Swedish presents little packs a okay now there is a  The addictive nature of nicotine kind of makes it a pretty big problem if you smoke If you limit yourself to cigars and pipes and the probably be  are probably the way to go if you just want the nicotine without the other But I prefer the pain of real smoke if I were to are very cheap and altogether Are you kidding I smoke Nat you are going to smoke do it in style The Sake of Argument this comic occasionally contains strong language may be unsuitable for unusual oh very I originally read that as condemned And was writing a serious why else would the Church both coining a Latin term for hot are you wearing hot pants right The was bracae Since the word for shorts is We must conclude that the object of condemnation was the femineae I think you are fine wear hot pants as you are a of course  actually have this book to mask the cracks in the facade of Peters with layer upon layer of hermeneutic of continuity Quote of the Pater Edmund Whoa whoa No hot Loose fitting clothing is Clothing should be tailored and form Watching sound of the clothing worn in the movie would be considered scandalous under these frumpy ideologies expressed Oh and public nursing is not a big Tailoring is an art of for the That goes for men and Skin tight clothing has its especially in you are no  I am speechless In Praise of Cigarettes I begin with a generous pinch of finely cut cradled inside a rectangular sheet of with a  Lederhosen are Cuban cigars are likewise from which constitutes the essence of original sin as of every is not therefore to be regarded as effected by concupiscence or as proceeding from but as occurring alongside and above as being contemporaneous with it or even prior to Hence concupiscence can be considered apart from such without any alteration of its nature of this debate boils down to several TAC alum maintain the false notion that reason alone without grace and revelation can attain all natural moral truths and truths of natural theology without any trace of This has been the position held by many in this even to the point of taking sections of Vat I out of The Church teaches that revelation is necessary to guide and perfect natural This debate also boils down to the boil on my and the fact that several Catholics on this thread do not know what and do not know the Dogma of the Immaculate At least one of Aristotle and Thomas from TAC seeks to misdefine the dogma to suit his false This is outrageous and May God have mercy on Who is Matthais Scheeben and why are you not quoting the It seems the deposit of faith would be a more worthy I think you do not understand what you are talking Please do not call me Weinberg is fine Catholic and no Very Thank Christendom provides the full outlay of the principles of sacred then dives into the principle one in Moral and Sacramental It does not just provide a truncated version of sacred theology as a demonstration of rational proofs as TAC That is just a false presentation of sacred theology and leads to How many dogmas does TAC teach per Thesis RAN OVER THE TACO BELL DOGMA why sacred theology gets flattened at certain Catholic TAC should consider including my book in its It is for edification and It is humble but good and has all the beasts in The Animal In Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Are you a baboon or a cottontailed Find Better than any Thank The Animal In Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Grading essays this The students have to choose Odyssey in response to an old AP Many literary works use contrasting places two two or two to represent opposed forces or ideas that are central to the meaning of the Choose a work from the list below that contrasts two such Write an essay explaining how the places what each place and how their contrast contributes to the meaning of the work as a Wtf John I am very much against arbitrary clothing rules that get established at There generally accepted standards for business no business business street athletic wear and evening Or you can do military style Class A Class B Class C Everything tailored to No athletic clothing in the dining or Weather will determine quantity of clothing your categories allow for Perhaps they should be Class Why does Aquinas begin the inquiry into modesty with AP delenda Catholicism has gotten fat and It is full of cracks and The only thing that keeps it going is that it pretends to be young and Agreed that AP should go the way of It is a mindless money making But the AP English Literature test is actually better than The creators of that test still think that one can speak about the meaning of the work as a It is of course only a matter of time until they jettison that fashioned but for now it is still As a there is no serious tension between teaching literature one would without an eye to the and getting the students ready for the Weiss not sure I even want to know why tight clothing is under discussion but sure a Foucault quotation that would be Jeff is know why he is addressing I was interested in the question of an objective standard but moreso the other aspects of modesty that is a good point but that question like many is Have you read essay His final comparison is a brilliant I am unable to read imprecise ink blots the same any Are you talking about the AP prompt I posted not following  I have not read Klein on Please explain your criticism of the opposed forces or ideas that are central to the still not following Just what does this are you claiming it is It is meant to be broad enough such that a student can choose from any number of literary works that present conflicting positions as central to the For selfishness genuine love in Twelfth love jealousy in seeming being in To be more precise would make the prompt such that it would not apply to many different This is the one place in the exam where the student can choose a text to write The other two essay questions give the students a prose passage or a There is no choice so the questions are much more for the one could contrast any number of conflicting or opposed the gods on Olympus the mortals on the or the Cyclopses the or the home of Menelaus the home of or island The one could represent radical individualism have no political whereas the ruled by Strong Mind and represent a true political These are opposed forces or are they for is the best opening paragraph from the student essays that I have read so includes many different islands in the each of which represents some element of the Homeric Two of these the island of the Cyclops and the island of the are in direct contrast to each as the island of the Cyclops is presented as being a place without or respect for the and the island of Phaeacia is shown as a place where and respect for divine power are This contrast between two styles of life contributes to the meaning of the work as a that in order for man to find his proper place in the in harmony with nature and subordinate to the he must learn to order his soul like that of the and to overcome all ways of life associated with Cyclopean A question that can produce a thesis like that is an excellent question in my The imprecision of the if that is the right work for allows the student to choose an appropriate text within that two contrasting ideas that point to the meaning of the work as a Are they or The question could be written just as openly without the use of these fuzzy terms can cause It is up to the student to formulate an answer based on One for if writing about Jack Build of talk about the of nature the in man that seeks to It is up to the student to make it more precise within the guidelines presented by the How would you fix That is the also Would you replace or with or clarify a difference helpful to understand the play or story as a to replace the whole part I quoted is even more is it Much of my emphasis in teaching essay writing was focused on students being Precise if broad questions It really helped the Iguess essay influenced me is general but have the ambiguities of forces or How about Everything is about I think students would be more perplexed by or because it is so You have to give them dare I more to get them looking in the right While I see the world in terms of many literary texts and so writing about forces in those texts would make Certainly speaking of contrasting is quite precise and a meaningful part of almost any literary As Newman boys are nothing so much as Essay on Elementary Best piece in his Idea of a I appreciate AP and what it does for I was an IB I think there are many problems with but I am fine with AP English The AP history courses are another Teaching the truth preparing for the test are in serious tension with one I have always wondered about Was it a good experience for The AP history courses are not really a problem in it is how they are taught that causes They really give a very general framework that I did not find objectionable in my IB being is certainly agenda probably more so than That being when I went once there was wide latitude in what to be IB does have a Theory of Knowledge course which is ultimately for high but what did you In the both programs teach students how to and can help them get out of GEDs in which seems like a good If anyone is interested in the AP History it is This is pretty good After learning the AP style inside and out as an I then had to learn Government Printing Office Style Manual I disagree about the AP history As an obvious AP world history certainly does not recognize the Incarnation as the central event in human They pretend to take a objective approach to the study of but the approach is anything but A teacher can go a long way to counteract the agenda of AP but one is constantly torn between genuine history and getting the students ready for what is expected by the AP Interesting about the theory of knowledge course in The AP folks shy away from at least for Once they see there is money to be I suspect one will Given one can hardly be surprised at the exclusion of the I am not saying that is a good but it is the way things There are still many good skills that one learns in One can hardly expect something that is a matter of faith to be proposed as the central tenet to a course that is not The APs are also being dumbed down AP is making another change right They make it sound of but the reality is they are expecting less knowledge from the Of course I am not surprised about the exclusion of the My point is that as a teacher of this one is torn between test prep on what the AP people and genuine AP is more focused on developing skills than mastering Style guides are Language seems to be in constant and they seem to be a snapshot of current for the sake of When it comes to AP is more about As for the AP examiners in history do not grade down for poor poor incorrect There are some skills in that are Jeffrey those are hard words against the AP Style Here is the Ant by an English from Latin several hundreds of years But see how he goes on at CONCERNING THE ANT Now to us all by its work the Ant should afford an Since all the food that it needs is carried home in its And in its to us often indicates spiritual since the Jew does not of he stands the Seeking for against the frosts of the winter Long as the earth has its it never ceases to Then while we have let us copy the Ant in its Lest at the end of all time we hear the doom of our Seeking for the if it finds any rejects Thus should a man try to find law which is not the But lest the grain should sprout in the when wetted with moisture Then being useless for there should be nothing to Each prudent Ant divides in two parts all the grain it has Thus showing clearly one law which in its way has two One which seems of the yet is turning our thoughts towards This now feedeth the yet too the body is Let this one be our so thus we be guarded from At the last judgment of Surely our winter of History is not true But how to approach history necessarily raises theological Through what lens does one look at all the The AP history folks want to deal with this They pretend their approach is purely scientific and objective when it clearly is Here is my A little bit Every among the males and Performs its work according to its So work with others in And play your part in simple At least according to the framework I linked the corse is largely skills I would not deny any but I see it as a good the previous AP US HIstory Course required too much if the students had only one year to prepare for In New Jersey they have so it did not in my mind overdo the The agenda is no if only because the high school teachers and college profs who are the test makers and readers are generally AP is ok so long as it get in the way of In I just did what I would normally do except the last couple I cut out half the AP part and focused on What was cut is only percent of the some AP are less an obstacle than Interesting to note that the unspoken theological perspective in AP history was Christian for many years insofar as and were in AP world at least that and are the It is ironic of course that they really did not replace the Christian they simply changed the outward designations while still relying implicitly on the Incarnation as the pivotal point for all of But what else could those poor AP folks They have yet to propose a dating system based on some supposedly measure draw from the phenomena of history When they finally get around to as the French revolutionaries it will be fascinating to see what they come up Interesting the only AP exam I did was Calculus I took an AP US history course and we had three It was a pain Does TAC really graduate atheists and I thought the Blue Book described secular academia as a tyranny for doing AP history is a crap taught it but some of those long essay questions are eyepoppers even from a saecular I know what to I come up with a how to work around the official curriculum Your poor AP teacher was probably told he had to get all or he would get the he choose all three textbooks in hopes it would produce AP and she was a liberal The titles Way We and some actual Must have been a not But being an atheist in a secular high school made for good times getting her distracted with political Max is Adrw Lang I can Max is response to Scrott Ethnic The Way We Written and performed by Barbara I There is a profound difficulty in teaching history without reference to religion as anything other than Ethnic America was actually interesting because each chapter was about a different immigrant Did it also proceed Christopher essays in the Dynamics of World History demonstrate an approach to religion as something other than You guys should join me in reporting new And Matthew please for the love of TNET unfriend as I it went but that is just off the top of my head in point of fact TAC has graduated atheists and Correlation is not Scott made a Max I mostly just think stupid for people to make accounts posing as other especially as a kind of well It is why I completely ignore or at least I assume going on with that Max Haaf x For the not a fan of that Scrott account So it goes both I prefer mocking Scott at least that one is It is more like a bot than But at least Mocking just gets you blocked and then you miss the fun  hehe Jeffrey Ethnic A History This classic work by the distinguished economist traces the history of nine American ethnic Is Sowell a I totally thought Scrott was Scott when I first started reading his comments it sounded so much like I know you were an IB teaching IB Literature now and loving Theory of Knowledge is both a potentially awesome and potentially terrible I think just depends on who teaches How about we all drop the fake name Silly Just ignore trollery in all Feil Matthew Peterson the fake name you just unfriend  I also graduated through the IB But our ToK class was I prefered Max Lederhosen to all the other I still seen the fake Max account Scott is such a he blocked me I I make though sure Thick Skin probably thinks I  Is the Max fake account I am also blocked because I saw it last I defriended both fake accounts ignore At Educator Day for the Diocese of the focus of which was the integration of digital technology into the a cell phone went off during Consecration at morning were I to read it in a I would take as an example of hamfisted irony surpasses all His symbolism Stopping in to say Hi and Lila is Catherine Joliat lay your fears to My brother in cell phone went off in church the Father walked up to him afterwards and slapped Not but just enough to be Like your blessing and The irony was not lost on There is a program that will automatically shut your phone off in Jeffrey Sowell is probably a never seen him say anything But i know if he calls himself I think he sees himself as a free market which can have some often described as a black he prefers not to be having prefer not to have but I suspect that would suit me better than many although I disagree with the libertarian movement on a number of I came to tNET to take a break from grading but it appears that everyone else must be busy grading hopefully doing something more As much as I love the too many papers on the wanderings of Odysseus can do horrible things to a I should be doing something so looking at my dissertation every minute or so while I watch a hockey This completely justifies watching the Has anyone else ever wondered why in the Nicene Creed the word is used to describe God the Father Deum God the Son Dominum Iesum the Church and even baptism but not the Holy just finished birthday cake Harry One get nervous when they start shooting piano Harry Nilsson Happy Canadian Thanksgiving I can honestly say I have never wondered My initial All the other unums seem to be replying to some common belief otherwise than one more than one more than one except for the Dominum Jesum where it is not immediately clear to me against what the unum would be Unless it is asserting the unity of the person Jesus Christ as man and as God against those who posit some kind of division in If that were the case then each unum would have a particular reason for being whereas perhaps there was no heresy asserting multiple Holy Your initial speculation makes a lot of It still seems especially given the difficulty of grasping who the Holy Spirit that would not be used about what we believe concerning the Holy Spirit since the idea of many spirits would seem quite common if there were not a particular heresy on that Quick your go to English version of the Douay  my bought me the Haydock a couple of years ago for my birthday and the standard for me Sitting alone with wine and spaghetti I crack myself up Is it haiku my giant beer seems empty crack another Hooded Iridescent sunlit wings Prints left in damp there are those who say freedom cannot be given but plucked roses die You did With the Sliced the  not really happy with it because it does not even remotely capture the experience of seeing the hooded warbler that  Direct rather than translation of a translation is the although definitely number I think the RSVCE was the one the TAC bookstore used to sell for use in Freshman I still have my with all my ignorant Freshman The hooded warbler And the old blue one is better than the new red for the What beautiful clay reformed Better than before nagaki hi mo saezuri taranu hibari kana so long a day not enough for singing that A cool fall getting we peeled Basho is Lord of the Haiku Nice Skylark lyrics by Johnny Mercer and music by Hoagy Carmichael Asterios Papastamatakis piano No papers to A free semester Autumn moon Poetry of a different I have over midterms to grade not the sword of Damocles more like a gigantic bulldozer hanging above my Brutal I am at a Still calls Autumnal But grading midterms is better than having to do so many other and I have it easy compared to The good old When the only test was an oral exam at We really need to bring back the oral exam in So much more I watched Sunset Boulevard last night and plan to watch The Player Regardless of the multiple bulldozers hanging over Rarely watch But autumnal Was listening to Wagner but I bore you all with Some jazz Skylark Maxine Sullivan Recorded in New Written by Johnny Mercer and Hoagy Holden is outstanding in Sunset True film Wagner whatever else one thinks he I never knew that the Norma Desmond character was played by someone whose life was essentially that of the Gloria Swanson nails the Boy does she Interesting to watch and think that the first celebrities of the silent screen were global stars on a scale that in some ways is probably much greater than what we see And that the problem of celebrity was identified very clearly early Not but it rings loudly while watching the Although as the global movie market swells higher and stardom will become more global than This is another great by the Not only Paul but also Ron Carter and Jack DeJohnette Skylark Paul Desmond Paul Desmond with Bob James Gene Bertoncini Ron Carter Jack DeJohnette What other movies does tNET Or any surprisingly wonderful or possibly unknown movie that should be on my Transformers See Translation These haikus soothe the The Big Sleep I the soundtrack is by Linkin It get any more LA than I jest  of course the big sleep bogart bacall I do need to see Chinatown again sometime soon to deconstruct and take I saw End of Training and Collateral also in the last year or but once is enough to LA Story seen too many Never seen the Big Will But I will want to read the book Want to see The Long Goodbye movie as well after just finishing the In a Lonely Place Raymond Chandler is the If you want some Altman and check out Short Cuts Supposedly the script was based off of several Raymond Carver stories transplanted to Warm afternoon sun thoughtful wonder flows but late for practice the feeling round these parts for Wes I need to see short cuts and In a Lonely Short Cuts online and often too lazy to walk or drive to the local artsy DVD store That big sleep clip was Would they have it at the public Or do those not exist in SoCal any Sometimes I love Who like But other times I feel like he needs to be slapped in the face and told to snap out of  Our public libraries have a month long celebration of Homer going on right and no not I feel like he sort of hit his peak with The Darjeeling You are correct I could also walk or drive to the public library or the colleges Will this comment be  Three more Double Indemnity Kiss Me and In a Lonely And more A celebration of Homer I miss the main branch of the NYPL something awful some days especially ordering up a book from the stacks and waiting for my number to come up Magnolia is Another PT Anderson favorite of mine is We forgot The Plastics Check Library Foundation of Los Angeles Odyssey The Odyssey Project Journeying into the neighborhoods of Los Looks there are no rhapsodes scheduled to Ithaka As you set out for Ithaka hope the voyage is a long full of full of Laistrygonians and angry be afraid of never find things like that on your way as long as you keep your thoughts raised as long as a rare excitement stirs your spirit and your Laistrygonians and wild encounter them unless you bring them along inside your unless your soul sets them up in front of Hope the voyage is a long May there be many a summer morning with what what you come into harbors seen for the first may you stop at Phoenician trading stations to buy fine mother of pearl and amber and sensual perfume of every as many sensual perfumes as you and may you visit many Egyptian cities to gather stores of knowledge from their Keep Ithaka always in your Arriving there is what you are destined But do not hurry the journey at Better if it lasts for so you are old by the time you reach the wealthy with all you have gained on the not expecting Ithaka to make you Ithaka gave you the marvelous Without her you would not have set She has nothing left to give you And if you find her Ithaka have fooled Wise as you will have so full of you will have understood by then what these Ithakas Cavafy I actually put Grand Budapest on the same level as Life Less better All this Odyssey talk makes me realize that I must resist the siren song of curb my wild and get back to the grind of grading Sleep Sleep I am off to bed I get over that warbler Posting an unpacking For about to watch The Seventh Seal with some Bergman is The RSVCE is not as close to the Greek NT as the Douay The translation of a translation point is a red In the RSVCE is one of the least on my below the The text it is based the original is too much dynamic equivalence and many translation decisions are based on questionable The RSV was it developed later was more but that is not what the RSVCE is based And changing highly favored on ton full of and changing brothers to brethren suddenly makes it Now if you want a great alternate for the New Lattimore is quite As evidence Matthew For what will it profit a if he gains the whole world and forfeits his Or what shall a man give in return for his life Douay Challoner For what doth it profit a if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own Or what exchange shall a man give for his While ψυχὴν can be rendered its first meaning is soul and it works better Any one whom you I also What I have if I have forgiven has been for your sake in the presence of Douay Rheims And to whom you have pardoned any I what I have if I have pardoned any for your sakes have I done it in the person of And for the hell of it Knox If you shew indulgence to so do I I wherever I have shewn have done so in the person of Christ for your And Lattimore has Who you forgive I too and if I have what I forgave was for your before the face of This is rather difficult as persona has more meaning because of what Christians gave then thoroughly persona was the name of an mask because it amplified From there to the character that wore the The Greek common equivalent to what we know as person has a very different originally the sludge on the bottom of a Now the word in Greek is ᴨροσωπω This should actually support person in English very Prosopa were masks worn by just personæ both underwent much the same shift in and prosōpōn is used for person in However it also means face and and was often use to mean in presence He was there in In such case it implies a bodily So Jerome translated the NT very and persona for prosōpō is a clear we need to be clear that in English the person of and the presence of are not so different after For what is meant by that he did these things in the person of Christ that is different than in the presence of Both translations fall the first implying a later meaning of person where you might miss the sense of both persona and prosōpō to mean in the presence of a and the latter does not have the same I like the Lattimore the best in some He certainly relying on the meaning of prosopo that means face or which id directly derived from its first mean as I was shocked to find how off from the Greek the RSVCE I was almost as shocked as when I found out how CLOSE to the Greek the Douay Thess is one of a few examples where the CE revision corrected the RSV RSV For this is the will of your that you abstain from that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God For this is the will of your that you abstain from that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know Douay Rheims For this is the will of your that you should abstain from That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and Not in the passion of like the Gentiles that know not Key verse in εἰδέναι ἕκαστον ὑμῶν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κτᾶσθαι ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ That here it is just the heretical protestants haveing their way with scripture against every sense of the word The word vessel or skeuos most likely refers to as the vessel of the Paul is talking about not abusing the body in fornication and This is not just evident from the fact that skeuos is used that way by actual Greek but it is how Paul uses it elsewhere But we have this treasure in earthen that the excellency may be of the power of and not of Cor At they could point to Ye likewise dwelling with them according to giving honour to the female as to the weaker and as to the of the grace of that your prayers be not hindered Peter But vessel mean wife the wife is called the weaker at least RSVCE is better than RSV Much in Douay is still My favorite example to lead people to appreciate the DR more was Phillipians Compare verses in various rendering Knox His nature from the and yet he did not in the rank of a prize to be NAB though he was in the form of did not regard equality with God something to be though he was in the form of did not count equality with God a thing to be NIV being in very nature did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own DR as Who being in the form of thought it not robbery to be equal with God Vulgata Clementina as Nova qui cum in forma Dei esset non rapinam arbitratus est esse se aequalem Deo Clementina et Nova This can be translated two ways Who although he was in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal to in which case the sense of the although must be against the verse not the not cause otherwise it would make no sense or Who since he was in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal to or even But the subjunctive would be unnecessary ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Literally word in the form of God subsisting did not robbery hold the being equal to original means to be under a but can simply mean Then it has the sense of permanent versus A similar meaning and etymology to subsistens in Latin which then means existing harpagmov means either robbery or rape Therefore the Vulgate with the same is perfect as can be for Robbery best in Hegesato originally meant to take but post Homer it means to consider something to THERE IS NO THOUGH or ALTHOUGH in ANY manuscript listed by Nestle so unless some technical point of Greek idioms brings one it is not who subsisting in the form of did not hold being equal to God is a very literal translation of the The DR and KJV seem obviously to have rendered it most And for that much more clearly than the modern which at best make it murkier and often seem to say something quite different which has led to many misreading the I had a paper with a ton of other places of comparison the find Suffice the NAB edged out over the RSV CE for but aside things like the Johannine the in the New was superior to the rest With regard to the Old no valid comparison is able to be made between the Douay Rheims and modern because there we must recognize multiple manuscript traditions and the idea of the is The RSV and NAB may be as representing the Masoretic The Douay Rheims shows another even going back to the original Hebrew sometimes in the this is the or in some cases maybe While the Dead Sea scrolls do align with the that is no clear indication of The break down is is Qumran other The fact even a while before there were multiple recensions of the What would become the Masoretic was becoming dominant already in the time of yet the Septuagint was also widely used and regarded as equally valid by the Scholars now recognize that the differences really due to but to the Septuagint being based on a different Hebrew hence The and remain the only Catholic English translations that witness to the intended liturgical text of certain We see this in Ecclesiaticus In several Marian feasts we have this passage As the vine I have brought forth a pleasant and my flowers are the fruit of honor and I am the mother of fair and of and of and of holy In me is all grace of the way and of the in me is all hope of life and of Come over to all ye that desire and be filled with my for my spirit is sweet above and my inheritance above honey and the My memory is unto everlasing They that eat shall yet and they that drink shall yet He that heakeneth to shall not be and they that work by shall not They that explain shall have life Aside from the different verse the passage in the RSVCE and NAB is very different Like a vine I caused loveliness to and my blossoms became glorious and abundant to you who desire and eat your fill of my For the remembrance of me is sweeter than and my inheritance sweeter than the Those who eat me will hunger for and those who drink me will thirst for Whoever obeys me will not be put to and those who work with my help will not This is not as much a translation but rather one of a different FWIW the Nova and hence the Latin Lectionary for the Novus Ordo agrees with the Douay Rheims Clark was one of the few tutors at TAC I remember grasping the actual issue of manuscripts It an issue always of a If I knew Hebrew and my Greek were a dream would be to do as Jerome did with the He made three Back then everyone was a liturgical and radical change was so his translation from the Hebrew was only used by He also revised the Vetus and this became the Versio His translation from the Septuagint is the Versio At one time the Roman was used in and the Gallican in Eventually it ame to the point that the Gallican was used in the Divine Office and in the chants of the propers of the but what the priest would read in the Missal was the So two texts for the Basilica and Marks in Venice alone kept the Versio Romana for the in the Novus Ordo it remains in one place Psalm the Invitory psalm is the old Vulgate Versio else the Gallicana or Nova Vulgata is used we could have a parallel bible with a translation of each done according to the same rules and Plus as long as we are using the vernacular in we could truly match the intent within the Latin editio typica of the Novus which keeps the versio Romana in one the versio Gallicana in and a more Hebraicised Nova Vulgata thus not relying on one Daniel Joshua I think that is a brillian Learn Hebrew and get better at from what I understand your thoughts about the different traditions is It would be interesting to find out more about At your leisure I would be interested in your thoughts on original Oh I wanted thoughts on I grew up with the Protestant Halloween is evil so wondering what the Catholic approach to it is so I freak out the grandparents some reasonings would be No time to say but I think a moderate celebration of Halloween with costumes and is not harmful at those are very insightful comments biblical Not really on board with the DR understand why people just prefer the If going to have my bible translated into like it to be In the Philippians to be grasped is sanctioned by long use in even if more accurate sounds Chandler my buddies are coming out with an annotated Big Sleep soon I Keep an eye out for Robert translations of various Old Testament books are the Hopefully he will have done the whole thing before he Then one could have Alter for the OT and Lattimore for the a good review of Robert Fidelity As the Italians tradittori translators are But the translator who shrugs Alter is really good except for some Fox is great for and Lattimore tops for Pater Edmund you have such good taste I gave you a very good reason why not to prefer the It is a protestant with mostly aesthetic changes my Thessolonians example is more than It is less accurate to the almost everywhere it disagrees with the Douay The thing there are good protestant The RSV is not one of If you want modern the NAB is actually better than the If you want modern the NAB is actually better than the And a wrong translation become right because of century If you want modern the NAB is actually better than the And a wrong translation become right because of century And there is no doubting that it is not just style people trip up on that passage and anyone who deals with normal laypeople trying to learn the have seen them either stumped by or even scandlized by that passage not in the way Paul meant to cause the scandal of the I think we can speak in terms of or in the black and white way you want to speak about the Greek word means or something akin to but I fail to see what is in translating it if by you mean agree with If you want modern the NAB is actually better than the And a wrong translation become right because of century And there is no doubting that it is not just style people trip up on that passage and anyone who deals with normal laypeople trying to learn the have seen them either stumped by or even scandlized by that passage not in the way Paul meant to cause the scandal of the If you do not see you have NEVER dealt with regular lay people and this It is taken to support kenotic theology Facebook is malfunctioning Facebook is malfunctioning the passage is not about in the but the Cross But emptied the form of a made in the likeness of and in habit found as a He humbled becoming obedient unto even to the death of the right NEVER dealt with regular I been working as a translator German for about years I fail to see what gives you over Facebook is malfunctioning the passage is not about in the but the Cross But emptied the form of a made in the likeness of and in habit found as a He humbled becoming obedient unto even to the death of the Stupid Facebook The way it is read in the NAB and and why in fact they translated it that is as kenotic Which is It is not that he aspire to equality with God or as the NIV puts it being in very nature did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own Funny the translators think they mean very different with those behind modern translations saying that the DR is But you know and therefore Who said anything about EVERYONE That is the damn issue with the passage carrying on an argument with the not EVERYONE That is the damn issue with the passage And with the very people who translated it that way  Stupid facebook keeps adding the text of my previous If you are one of of people who read those translations as meaning the same well bully for The translators they argue the DR is But every layperson I have encountered has either had difficulties or misread the passage because of the You have special gnosis  But I think not really disagreeing more concerned in this most recent posts with the LATTER part of the whereas I was just focusing on the and I even want to get into Although I will go with Dionysius the Areopagite in seeing the incarnation and everything that went along with that as an ontological And the argument from modern translators is that must mean thing different thing because the passage is about you know That is If you want to defend the modern maybe you should read up on I am not talking about the latter but the grasping They are not equivalent they mean the same thing the common rendering in newer translations is based on the claim that ἁρπαγμὸν can also mean clinging on to something already But this is tenuous at No one has shown any examples of that I have combed Pereus for The noun derivative means spoil or thing Whether it is what is to be seized or what is possessed from the result of Every argument against the DR or KJV rendering I have read argues based on that which is not a real What it really and they make this is They claim reading it according to the meaning of the word seize by make sense in so the word must be transferable to this extended meaning that except no one I know sees how it makes unless they hold kenotic that is both rather and condemned by the That is just one example of the DR being Find anywhere they aside from say the Johannine and the DR matches the Greek I never said they mean the same As I I think fighting a battle with someone other than No you made a stupid sanctions a That I take issue It does You guys have not been very helpful about talking about original You could all just admit that the Holy Spirit assisted the Lutherbibel and the KJV Interestingly Luther does use And my claim is not Intellectual tradition means Everybody be nice or start handing out Forty lashes with a wet noodle to the next These Photos Of A Teenage Melanie Griffith And Her Pet Lion In The Are KIMBERLEY DADDS Clickhole Buzzfeed  But that is an amazing series of What a noble I want a lion Aslan Mufasa Hey TNET I want to obtain two things this week a classy and a reliable manual Does anyone here have any experience with these items and the relative quality Suggestions very I love watching Blockean  A question about the Adam and Eve For those who hold the just infused a soul in the body of a developing ape fetus so was evolved enough to have matter that could be how do you make sense of praeternatural  And question that arose at the parish this if humans had not sinned long shot I would Jesus have still become One of the praeternatural gifts was the ability to pick out professional leather Intellectual tradition is only century and based on questionable claims about the meaning of the The Johannine comma has a long defending far longer than that impugning yet it seems near certain that it is not So yeah I find the argument I do apologise for being a little harsh was pissing me off with its malfunctioning and that raise my But I do not apologise for calling that argument I gave good reasons why one would not the with regard to your first I think that is a We know dogmatically that the first man had original justice and bodily immortality as Augustine the possibility of not rather than the impossibility of It is close enough to and probably dogma from the ordinary and universal that they also had the gift of integrity from irregular The gift of knowledge is only the common not actually defined and that seems to be the problematic It is different than the other Thomas teaches that and it would not have been passed down to his It was only because it was necessary that man have knowledge of his supernatural I gave a talk on the creation of the first man and evolution and this was one of the sticky I did hold then that we could affirm either that God gave this grace to Adam either gradually or at a later or we could affirm that by some miracle he had the use of reason and knowledge from Though I would favor the former latter seem to be a singular privilege of But what about The second Scotists hold that the Incarnation was predestined but Thomists have argued that Incarnation was predestined on account of Thomas when he raises this sticks with Christ became incarnate to redeem What God would have willed to do had He willed not to permit what He would have done had He not done what He did with is just In God from all eternity willed the creation of a in which He foresaw and permitted and consequently willed to redeem the human race in Anything with due respect to well it belongs to unanswerable hypotheticals clearly a sharp briefcase was one of those things necessary for Adam to fulfill his and so knowledge of such would have been I knew it After all he had to have a place to keep all his swag    But even St Thomas seems to be kind of on the fence about the Apparently St Albert was in the would have come camp Albert was in that I say Aquinas was on the He is very clear in Incarnation was for He argue that it have happened if man had not because we have no basis to argue one way or the is pure wishing of Even conjecture is too strong Albertus says it this way I believe that the Son of God would have become man even if there had been no on this subject I say nothing in a definitive but I believe that what I said is more in harmony with the piety of faith Thomas would be and then be all can both agree that the actual God became man to like totally save And Albert would be all like and then they would go have a beer That is my take on it ob er wohl in göttlicher Gestalt hielt nicht für einen Gott gleich Just for translation seems to agree with the I think Kenz is right that the version at the very dangerously Of even Luther had the sense that the word mean one thing in this and another thing everywhere I want to find my Lattimore and see how he translates was in the form of but did not think to seize on the right to be equal to but stripped himself by taking the form of a As a side always understood the though he was in the form of did not count equality with God a thing to be as pointing out not as saying that he know he was the seems to say something like doubt that he was In comparison with I see how the RSVCE could be the what if Albert and Thomas were valley girls still chuckling